Buck Sexton (3:35)

Thanks so much for having me Megan. Appreciate it.

Megyn Kelly (3:37)

Of course. So congrats on on Pub day. Manufacturing delusion who is doing the manufacturing?

Buck Sexton (3:45)

Anybody who is seeking totalitarian mind control. So it can be a regime, it can be a cult, it can be a terrorist group, it can be a faction of left wing loons in our own country. It really depends on the phase that you're in. And I try to break this down when I approach this book, Megan. The initial idea behind it, or rather why I was thinking about this in the first place, was people will talk about things like climate change and they'll say this is the biggest threat that we face or they'll talk about, I don't know, we're going to all run out of water or something. The biggest threat that we as a species face is mass hysteria and mass delusion. And I think that's been the case for a very long time. Certainly the 20th century showed that that was the case. And I hope we don't have to relearn that lesson in the 21st. But it's essentially when people go mad in masses or in herds and this is done often intentionally. There are people who can control this, there are tactics that are used and I get into in the book is really about chapter by chapter various approaches to this kind of mind control. Whether it's the Soviets, the Chinese, I said a bunch of different cults that I talk about. And also takes you a little bit in the earliest days of of the brain, the brain stimuli to the outside or rather stimuli from the outside to the brain connection that Pavlov, the Russian scientist developed in the early 20th century. So there's a lot, A lot to go through in it, but it's certainly. There's a whole chapter on menticide and about the transgender situation, which is menticide, obviously, being mind killing. That's exactly what we're seeing in this country, menticide.

Megyn Kelly (5:34)

I think it's so interesting because I love anything involving cults, first of all. And this really shows, like, you talk about many infamous cults, like Jim Jones, people drinking the Kool Aid, taking their own lives, convinced that doom and gloom was awaiting nuclear attacks and so on. But. And then you, you liken it to what's happening today. And when you watch, like, the lunacy on the streets of Minneapolis, is it so different from being in the Jim Jones cult and being convinced that you, you know, you. You have everything to fear? The Gestapo is here. Like these ICE agents. They're. They're locking people up. They're. They're stopping innocents and throwing them away without, Without a key. American citizens. The. The through line. It, like, it didn't really dawn on me until I read the book on exactly how the same tactics are being used only on American citizens.

Buck Sexton (6:28)

Well, you know, Megan, this is why I draw upon. And I had the CIA. I'm absolutely contractually obligated if I write about CIA operations I was a part of, for the first time ever, I've written about them. I wrote about going after Boko Haram. It was actually called something else at the time. Boko Haram in Nigeria and Al Qaeda in Iraq. And Iraq. And then of course, various. Whether it's the Taliban, Al Qaeda remnants, and the Haqqani network in Afghanistan. But one thing that I found fascinating, and then I had some time at the NYPD doing counterterrorism there. You would have people who would show up in Iraq or in Afghanistan and they were willing to blow themselves up in countries they had really never been in before, spent a very short amount of time in to kill people they had never met because of a cause that they only recently became aware of and often through online means. So if that's possible, if it's possible to have some kid who grows up in Birmingham in the UK and goes, you know what I mean? I'm going to strap, I'm going to fly to Turkey, make my way into Syria, go across into Iraq and try to blow up as many people as possible to fight against the, you know, they always would call them the Crusaders and Jews, the Christians and Jews in Iraq, then it must be possible for this to be happening elsewhere in different Ways at different levels, perhaps not quite as violent, but also using the same process. And that brings me to Minneapolis. How do you get, you know, suburban middle age seems mostly, in the case of Minneapolis white women, to think that they should be blocking ICE officers with their body, that they're stopping Nazis, that they should spit at them, or that they should, you know, physically throw themselves in the midst of law enforcement, try.

Megyn Kelly (8:13)

To run them over.

Buck Sexton (8:15)

This is crazy. I mean, this. We need. This is a word that is applicable. This is crazy. There's something. Something has happened to their mind. And I mean, I get into, like, menticide is based on artificial breakdown and deconditioning. So the artificial breakdown is. And in the case of the trans situation, this really hits home. It's getting you to just believe. It's the belief in the most core and fundamental lie and to give up all that you have believed in before, give up all on this issue you thought you knew. And then it can be reconstructed, reconditioning to the new order is what they call it. And this is what you see where people not only are led to believe that you can't tell the difference between a man and a woman, or that a baby is assigned gender at birth. Think about what a crazy. You know, we've all on the right. Been making jokes about the pronouns thing for a long time, and I think we realize now it's actually very, very. I mean, we. You know, I've done that too, but it's actually gotten quite serious as we see with more and more of these mass shooting incidents involving trans individuals. But, you know, you see this and you say, hold on a second. If I can't tell the difference between a man and a woman, or rather if I'm willing to have someone else tell me that there is no difference biologically, we can't tell the difference. What else am I open to? What other kind of persuasion. What other kind of rewriting of my basic circuitry is possible?

Maureen O'Connell (9:36)

Yes.

Megyn Kelly (9:37)

Oh, that's. That's such a good. That's such a good way of putting it. Rewriting of my basic circuitry. That's truly what the trans thing does. And like when they make you say she, when you are looking at Dylan Mulvaney or you're looking at Leah Thomas, and you know, this is a he, you know, this is a man, or these enormous guys who come into the women's locker room or the women's bathroom and they. They are trying to make you say, she belongs there, and your circuitry tells you it's a Lie.

Buck Sexton (10:12)

Yes. And this is why I start off the whole book with the initial. Some of the initial research and the most famous research about Ivan Pavlov. And now he. This is somebody who got a Nobel Prize for science. Had to do with gastric juices and digestion, actually. But this guy comes along, he's the most famous Russian scientist of all time, and Russia's actually produced some pretty darn good scientists. And he came along and he goes, well, hold on a second. Not. I can prove that what your brain processes has actual physical effect in the body. And so his whole. His life's work really was trying to understand that at a time when really there was almost no understanding of this. Right. And they're talking about very end of the 19th century, early 20th century. But there's a fascinating situation that occurred where his. His lab had a bunch of different labs over the course of his career. But there was a lab in St. Petersburg, Megan. And as we all know, he kept dogs. He didn't actually. People always say that he would ring a bell. It was actually a buzzer or a metronome. There's a lot of stuff that is sort of like the lore of Pavlov versus the truth. I get into some of that. But this is all true. He had a lab, and there was a flood. And the dogs. And I love dogs. You love dogs like this. Like, it gets me upset just thinking about the dogs. When the flood was going up and up and up, realized that it was very likely that they were, you know, that they were in mortal. They were in cages and they were all going to drown. Some workers from the lab got into Pavlov's lab and were able to release these dogs just in time. Just in time. And noticed extreme changes afterwards in their behavior. Essentially, that trauma was so profound in dogs that some of them became far. That had been a little aggressive, became far less aggressive and timid. Some of them that had been really friendly became quite, you know, ferocious toward members of staff. They had. The circuitry had changed because of a fear stimulus. Now, I know we think about this stuff more now, but a hundred years ago, that was a eureka moment. It was, wow, you can actually take external. Externalities, in this case, a natural kind of a natural phenomenon. But you could then force it, perhaps, and make people change behavior based upon things in their environment and get physiological changes from that as well. So that is a huge transformation in our sense of where the brain and our psychology ends and our physiology and our bodies begin. And this matters so much, obviously, for the. In the trans debate in a whole bunch of ways. Because if you can submit on this issue and give up the most fundamental understanding of biology that I think really all of us have, that is a huge step in this process of getting people to be willing to say absolutely anything. That is why these are the outside stimuli. Use the pronouns, say you don't know. You're constantly undermining your own cognition, your own ability to think through these problems. And that's why they're so insistent on it. And by the way, the Soviets knew this. And I get into this history in the book, the Chinese during the Cultural Revolution knew this as well. They were insistent on. Upon the constant barrage of falsehoods. Even if they knew Meghan, you didn't know it. And this gets into Mao. By the way, the term brainwashing, which is a whole chapter on comes from a Chinese. It's like a Chinese neologism, which is wash brain. And, you know, they switched it around. A journalist named Edward Hunter, who was familiar with what had happened in the early days of the Chinese Cultural. Cultural Revolution, says this is crazy what they're doing over there. And there's been some amazing studies. There's a guy, Robert Lifton, who wrote a study of all these people, including some Westerners, by the way, who were just completely like rewritten by this process of Chinese brainwashing over time. And it's very clear there's a very sort of structured process to it. And this is how they thought they were going to. And it worked in a lot of cases. And this is how they seized control of the populace in China. This is what Stalin. Stalin was had a little bit of a different approach. The Chinese kind of built on that. But this is what they did there. It's what they do in North Korea today. Everybody has to use the preferred phrases. Everybody has to bow in front of the emblems or the. Or the posters or whatever.

Megyn Kelly (14:39)

Yeah.

Buck Sexton (14:39)

Because even if you don't bow to.

Megyn Kelly (14:41)

What we do on the American left today too, here's exactly right. For the listening audience, we're talking to Buck Sexton. The name of his book out today is Man Manufacturing Delusion. How the left Uses Brainwashing, Indoctrination, and Propaganda against you. And as you're talking, Buck, I'm thinking about the, the mass hysteria around BLM and the, the surveys by the far, asking far left liberals how many black men are unarmed, Black men are killed by police in a year. And, and some said over 10,000. Right. And it was 12. Over 10,000. They've been so diluted. I'm thinking about the climate change historic hysteria with, yes, of course, Greta Turnberg. But this, I mean, she's a good example because she was a kid, you know, I mean, she's kind of turned into a bit of a villain. But she started off as just a deluded kid who was brainwashed by this same set of psychos, including people like Al Gore and Bill Gates and others who influenced that sect. Now it's aoc, et cetera. And then most recently, Covid. Covid is like that trauma that the dogs suffered that you write about in manufacturing delusion, where the water was rising not for normies, but for lefties who convinced themselves that this was like the end times and that we were all almost about to die. And people like, forgive me, cause she's a minor. But Violet Affleck, who's still going back to the UN in her mask, demanding that we all wear the masks so that we don't die from a resurgence of some Covid strain like it is, as you write, a manufactured delusion. And it was intentional.

Buck Sexton (16:27)

Covid was really the beginning of the idea for the book, Megan, because I kept looking around, as many of us did, as I think so many of us did, and saying, okay, guys, explain to me why the wearing. And it's not a Covid book, to be clear, but this was. There's a chapter where I deal pretty extensively with this. And it is, by the way, the wearing of the mask is very much like, use the preferred pronouns. Even if they know you don't believe, and even if you're doing it under protest. The act of submission itself continuously is part of the process of that rewiring or rewriting. But I.

Megyn Kelly (17:05)

Making my blood boil.

Buck Sexton (17:07)

Yeah. And I just remember people saying things like, well, put on the mask for the walk to your table. I'm like, in a small restaurant. I'm gonna walk 15ft to a table, have to put my mask on for that. But then when I sit, it's okay. Or close a bar at 10 o'. Clock.

Megyn Kelly (17:22)

That's right.

Buck Sexton (17:23)

This is crazy. That is the only word. This is nuts. And Foushee, who I find to be a vile coward and have absolutely nothing but contempt for him professionally. And what he did, Foushee and all the rest of them, like, this is why it's manufactured. They found these things and these rituals to be useful tools of control. And there's all these different approaches to how you get people to think and to mobilize around lies, falsehoods, crazy ideas again. And that is that is the meat of the book. And that's why I wanted to write it, because I really wanted to say the book was like, what happened to you people? Why'd you go so crazy? Including people that I knew who I'd always thought were pretty normal. But, you know, now, now you're seeing this with the trans thing. I mean, I think it was a really, for, you know, a really helpful moment when on Bill Maher's show.

Jonathan Gillam (18:20)

It.

Buck Sexton (18:20)

Was Neil DeGrasse Tyson went on. Right. He's a like a celebrated astrophysicist, a man of science.

Megyn Kelly (18:26)

And he won't say on this issue.

Buck Sexton (18:28)

Yeah, he won't say that men have an advantage over women biologically in athletic competition. That's that. That is.

Megyn Kelly (18:36)

I got dollars to donuts, Neil DeGrasse Tyson is wearing a dress at night. He is so defensive of this issue of like men being able to come into women's spaces. And there's nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with the trans. Like, I'm sorry, but there's something going on there that makes him so defensive of this. Maybe somebody in his family. I have no idea. It's just my opinion. But there's something off about that guy.

Buck Sexton (18:58)

Well, definitely. But I would also say that this is something, you know, when I was doing the research for this, the willingness of people who are supposedly experts to go along with this is so directly, directly correlates, I think, to the coercive mechanisms that exist within our society. It seems less so now. And I think a huge part of this is Trump has broken down so many of these just systems of coercion that exist around us in our society by whether you want to say, broadening the Overton window, opening the realm of discussion. I mean, this is just a fact. And you know, this, Megan, people can say stuff now. Like you can say now, you know, a lot of minorities got into Harvard who honestly shouldn't have gotten into Harvard. They weren't academically ready and they didn't have the grades and they didn't have the boards. And the whole thing was kind of a scam. And it's wrong, you know, and you're actually just stating facts. Cuz that's actually what's come out of the Supreme Court. And we're all very aware of this. And you say to yourself, okay, there was a time when I faced major professional consequences for even stating things that are true.

Megyn Kelly (20:09)

You can say that people used to wear blackface Halloween costumes when they wanted to look like Diana Ross or Michael Jackson. And it wasn't a Big thing. No one cared. You can say that and you won't get canceled. You won't get fired. Because it's true. Yeah.

Buck Sexton (20:21)

And. But see, this is. These are the ways that people will say, oh, Buck, why do you talk about, like, menticide in the context of the Soviet Union? And I get into the Stalinist show trials because I think this is so important for people to remember. And I don't think people learn about this in schools. Stalin killed millions of people. Stalin could have liquidated anybody. Why did he have these people, including. Including some incredibly dedicated communist revolutionaries that he had paraded out in these courts and for everyone to know about and everyone to see and, you know, hear about, read about and had them confess to absurd crimes. I mean, basically had these guys confess to, like, assassinating Abraham Lincoln or something. It was crazy. Why do that? To show everyone this is what we can do. I can take someone and break them down so much that. That they will confess to absurdity. They will call for their own execution in court, which is also what happened. And it's because I am so good at this mind control. I am so good at breaking you down at the menticidal process. Like I said, played out in China, too. If you've ever seen. There's this incredible documentary. I think it was actually National Geographic Long. I talk about North Korea, too, because North Korea is like, if you have a society built on menticide today, right, where they have the full force of the government, I mean, they'll execute you for using the wrong pronouns, so to speak. Obviously, that's not an issue over there, but you know what I mean, if you break with the party line, you can be executed. And they have all these. They have these doctors that visited. This is on a documentary, and they're doing basic surgeries, but they do amazing things for people because they obviously have no medical care. In this case, it was eye surgeries. And people. I think they were moving cataracts so people can see. Do you think the first thing that the people that have doctors from mostly European countries come in and give them their sight back and say thank you to the doctor? No. They turn around, they bend the knee, literally, and they cry with thanks to the portrait of the member of the Kim family that was alive at the time, whichever one, it was for giving them back their sight, that is like. So I think it's important people understand that exists. I know you've interviewed Yeonmi park before. So have I. That exists today.

Megyn Kelly (22:39)

She's great.

Buck Sexton (22:40)

Yeah, she's incredible. That exists today. So if that exists in a country of tens of millions of people, as North Korea is, clearly it is possible to hold large numbers of people psychologically captive. And if that exists in a society with totalitarian force, how does it manifest in our own society, which obviously we don't have, you know, like death squads? Although, you know, the Democrats will say we're committing genocide against the trans community and we got the Gestapo with ice. So there are threads that I connect between all of this.

Megyn Kelly (23:12)

And that's the irony, of course, because it's there. They are the ones not with death squads, but who would absolutely kill your career.

Jonathan Gillam (23:21)

Yes.

Megyn Kelly (23:21)

Who would absolutely kill your spirit, who will shame you to high heaven to the point they do. They would be delighted if something bad happened to you, if you just didn't go along with their party madness. I want to show this buck this when you're talking, it reminded me of one of the first stories we did when we launched the show. Now it's a famous story, but it's what happened to Brett Weinstein at Evergreen College. And it was back in, I wanna say, 2019 that this went down. But by now the story's well known that Brett Weinstein was a professor there and he was shamed because they used to have a. Like, one day a year they would have black students do like a sick out just to show white students what it would be like on campus if the black students didn't show up. And then one year they said, we don't want to do that anymore. This year we want the whites to stay home. We're coming to campus. We want no whites to be there. And Bret Weinstein said, as a professor, I'm not sure that's the same. It's like one thing, if you want to say you don't want to come, it's different for you to say, hey, whites, stay home or else. So this is not so cool. And all hell broke loose on Evergreen. They treated him like he was the head of the kkk. And there's lots of clips from this terrible, terrible episode on campus. But the one that always gets me is there is a black student because they shamed any student who didn't want to go along with this. And there was a black student who really liked Brett Weinstein and she didn't like what they were doing to him. He was under threat. They stormed campus. The campus security told him and his wife Heather, we can't keep you safe. You need to leave. They were like, this is for him, just saying very gently, I Don't think you should do this. Anyway, they took this young black woman, she's probably 18 years old, and shamed her, shamed her in the middle of campus for the sin of not hating Bret Weinstein. And they made her read a forced apology that had clearly been written for her. And this is the clip. This is your book again, which is called Manufactured Delusion by Buck Sexton. The look what they did to her as demonstrated anti blackness in the pigeon holding Char charging and sensing of two black trans disabled students based on false racially charged alleged allegations. Sorry. Publicly flogged her.

Buck Sexton (25:52)

Right.

Megyn Kelly (25:53)

She couldn't even get it out. She stuttered. The words were unfamiliar to her. It was a public shaming, by the way. It was in 2017.

Buck Sexton (26:01)

But this is straight out of the Chinese Cultural Revolution where they would have these struggle sessions, which is a term that people know but I don't think they really understand. I mean there were students who were beating their own teachers to death on stage in front of crowds. Right. To show that it's really bad to be against the revolution. And we're going to. I mean it was, it was horrific stuff. And, and there should be much greater awareness, I think, in this country of exactly how they mobilized the youth, I might add. College students. That's interesting, isn't it, to be the vanguard of the revolution. Because they tend to be very full of zeal, very full of emotion and they don't have a lot of life experience and therefore wisdom. So they are easy to manipulate. If you're going to manufacture a delusion, it's much better to start with people who are going to be susceptible to the tactics from the, from the get go. But the, the self, the self denunciation, which is what that is, is a critical part of a menticidal process. And this has been seen again, all totalitarian regimes do this and people might say, oh, what? Yeah, but they also do this in cults too. You'll see a very standard thing in cults is people. I mean one, there's a whole chapter in the book, Megan, on isolation. Because of course they want to have much greater control over you and you become unmoored. You're much easier to kind of mold if you don't have family members, friends, things like this. And that's pretty standard, pretty standard cult stuff.

Megyn Kelly (27:32)

Speaking of COVID Yeah, of course.

Buck Sexton (27:34)

And you know, separating us, whether on your vax status, I mean, once you start to see all of this stuff and you start to look at these, at the connective tissue between how all this Stuff works. But even in the case of.

Megyn Kelly (27:48)

Of.

Buck Sexton (27:49)

Of people who are trying to join cults, trying to find themselves, often there'll be some version of, like, they have to. You know, they have to confess. I know they have this, and. And I didn't write about Scientology, so I'm not in. I want to get sued. But, you know, there's. There's a thing in Scientology, right, where you basically tell somebody, like your auditor all of your thing. There's all this stuff where it's basically, I will admit I'm horrible. I'll admit I'm terrible. And then once you're broken down, they try to. They try to rewrite the script. And the left does this all the time. I mean, there was a fascinating article all the time. I feel like I read this, gosh, I don't know, over a decade ago. I can't remember the. The author. I think it was Freddie DeBoer was the guy's name. But he talked about how the left was just getting so insane and that no one on the left was safe from anyone else on the left and that he was at a meeting of all these. Like, this is a. By the way, this guy's like a far left writer. But it was an interesting piece. And he was talking about how he's at this meeting and there was a. A Latino, you know, like, I think a Latino disabled veteran who is, like, really fired up about social justice. And he said, it's time for, like, us to man up and, like, really work together for the people. And a few of the women in the room were like, how dare you?

Megyn Kelly (29:04)

Oh, boy. How dare not, right?

Buck Sexton (29:07)

Man up. I mean, and they were serious about it. He was like, this is. These people again. They're nuts. Megan. You know, I kind of wanted the book to be like, left wingers are insane and just call that the title and here's why, and get into, like, the works of it. But. Yeah, but, you know, that would be.

Megyn Kelly (29:23)

A little time on Twitter, Buck. I tweeted out something. It was some public figure. I can't remember who it was. It was a female, though. And I said, she needs to woman up. And, like, whatever, you know, be strong is basically what I was saying. And then. And the left range shit down on me for that, too. Like, you can't say, well, what? Which is it? I mean, that's actually kind of a compliment. I'm saying she's. She should be strong. But no, you can't say that. Their word policing is all part of the control game. But explain to me, why, like, why are they constantly trying to control. This is critical and especially the weakest among us.

Buck Sexton (29:58)

Sure, sure. So this is one is, is that it's. There's no greater power than power over people's minds, right? That's actually what. It doesn't matter who has the most guns or whatever, if the people wielding them will do whatever you say that you are in charge. Right. So, so the ultimate power comes from the control of people's minds. But, but in the, in the why. The hyper, the hyper policing of things, even like language, for example. And this comes up in liftin study, which I get into, in brainwashing, by the way. The Chinese didn't call it brainwashing, we call it brainwashing. They called it thought reform. And they tried to be very, in their own terminology of this, Megan. Cuz they were doing this to Chinese, right? This wasn't something they were trying to do to the, to the external world necessarily. There were some westerners left behind.

Megyn Kelly (30:47)

They had to be smart about it. The Chinese are smart.

Buck Sexton (30:49)

They are, they're very smart. And they called it thought reform. And they took a very scholarly approach to it. But one of the things that they would do in the artificial breakdown and deconditioning phase phase of the process is they would have someone write a confession. And, and of course, initially it starts off with what? What do you like? I didn't do anything. I mean, they had priests, like an Italian priest writing a confession about what doesn't matter. Write a confession. And then they, they would beat you down sometimes physically, of course they would beat you and they would keep you in the cell and it was okay. And so then they realized, I'll just tell them whatever they want to hear. And then they thought, okay, well, that will be good enough. Now, by the way, you're starting to give into your captor. You're starting to have Stockholm syndrome, which again, I talked about the origins of that comes from a bank robbery in Sweden. But okay, I'll do whatever, I'll write the crazy thing. And you give them this thing that says, I'm the counter revolutionary, I'm a spy, I do all the things. And they look at you and they would just tear the whole thing up and say, not sincere enough. Not like not sincere enough. And then you go again and again and again. And the point is, it is debasing your mental faculties and you're showing them there is a conditioning of who is in charge. So Megan, if you can't have a conversation about the trans community without Being told, oh, I'm sorry, what about Zen? Or like, what about, you know, now you're on more. Now you're completely flummoxed. Like, what are you talking about? And it shows you at every.

Megyn Kelly (32:23)

Yeah, you're unmoored.

Buck Sexton (32:24)

Unmoored. It shows you who's in charge, and.

Megyn Kelly (32:27)

It destabilizes that exactly how they want you.

Buck Sexton (32:30)

Yeah.

Megyn Kelly (32:31)

Yes, this is. Okay, we're talking to Buck Sexton. The book is Manufacturing Delusion out today. This is reminding me of the school that we were at in New York. We were at two private schools in New York before we fled, and our daughter's school. I talked about this at the time, but our daughter's school, she was only in 4th grade at the time, but there was a 10th grade girl who they put through hell, Buck. They put this girl through hell. It was a long story, which I'll tell in full someday, but the short version is this girl was accused by two of her classmates of saying something racially insensitive about a Halloween costume. And the school, having gotten wind of it, it was set on private time, made this girl stand in front of the entire upper school assembly and apologize to everybody for being racially insensitive. Meanwhile, she wasn't. It truly was completely blown out of proportion. It was a nothing what she said. So she did it. Then they called her back in to say it wasn't good enough. You have to racialize your apology. You have to get back up in front of the assembly and racialize the apology. Like, I, as a white girl, could never know how. My insensitive comment about, by the way, the comment was about what we're not going to be for Halloween. It was something like, we're definitely not going to be a slave master in slaves. And one of the girls to whom she said it was mixed race. So now you have to get back and you have to racialize it. And only at that point did she say, I'm going to tell my parents. This is happening to me. I'm not sure this is totally kosher. And the parents got involved like, what the hell is going on? She's been publicly flogged twice for this throwaway comment. Long story short, it wound up the two girls who were sort of coming for her claiming offense had been so incendiary on their own social media about race. There wasn't. They weren't offended at all. It. The whole thing wound up being a target hit job on this girl. La la la la. The school should have done so much better by her, but. But what you are saying is exactly what they put this girl through. And it's no accident they didn't call in her parents. They wanted control over this 15 or 16 year old girl. They wanted a public self flagellation. It wasn't good enough. They couldn't have an authority figure or a family member to whom she felt close step in and they try to humiliate her. Again, you bend over and humiliate yourself. You do it. Fucking do it. And thank God this girl had something in her, at least at that point, that said, I'm calling my mom. And everything turned at that point. But it's making my blood boil going back through it. As you, as you spell it out, right, like this is an old playbook.

Buck Sexton (35:07)

This is a real thing. This is a real thing, Megan. In fact, Joost Meerloo, who again is. He had a book called the Rape of the Mind, which has fallen completely like no one. Like, it's just not something that anyone's reading, talking about. It's an incredible book. He was a psychiatrist in the Second World War. He was a prisoner of war himself and he dealt with captured Nazis. So I mean, you want to talk about somebody who has frontline psychiatric research against what is it was brainwashing before we called it that. But what was going on with members of the SS and the Gestapo and this. He wrote an incredible book. But to your point, about what they did to this girl, the two. To simplify this for anybody, what are the two pillars, according to Dr. Meerloo, of Menticide, Confusion and degradation. Keep someone confused and degrade them and then you can remold them, you can convince them of anything. In fact, he writes, one important result of this procedure is the great confusion it creates in the mind of every observer, friend or foe. In the end, no one knows how to distinguish truth from falsehood. The totalitarian, in order to break down the minds of men first needs widespread mental chaos and verbal confusion because they paralyze his opposition. This is, this is exact. Now, yes, you can do that with a, you know, a squad of like secret police in some totalitarian hellhole, but the same process of confusion and degradation from authority figures in a different context in, in a, you know, free liberal democracy, or free for now, the same tactics can be used, right? So this is why I think it's.

Megyn Kelly (36:50)

So important you can start degrading high school students for nothing. Keep them confused, keep them degraded, firing people for nothing. Or you can just publicly humiliate them for nothing. I mean, like it's it makes so much sense. You can read about it in Manufacturing Delusion, Buck Sexton's new book. We've mentioned the trans thing a couple times, Lat. There was just a. There was just a mass shooting in Rhode island yesterday that I mentioned at the top of the show by a trans person, a man claiming that he was female. But before that, there was one last Friday, which was horrific. Eight dead, 25 injured in Canada. This is at the Tumblr Ridge Secondary School in British Columbia. And this was unbelievable. The initial alert described the shooter as a female in a dress with brown hair. I mean, it's just. That's just dangerous. You're just actually endangering lives. It was a man dressed as a woman pretending to be female. And then the police later described a shooter as a gun person. They wouldn't call him a gunman gun person and was actually correcting people on the gender so that we didn't offend the dead mass shooter. He was a biological male who started identifying as female back in 2023. Uh, and they appeased him, they coddled him, they affirmed him. And he, like so many, including the guy who just shot up the Rhode island ice skating rink yesterday, was driven to madness. And none of the coddling or appeasing wound up helping him. And it actually endangered their families and those around them, including the community. And even in death, in a place as. As far nutty as Canada. I'm sorry to my Canadian friends, but your country's lost its mind. They'll lecture you on pronouns posthumously, standing in a field of blood with the 25 people who are still struggling to save their lives with eight dead all around them.

Buck Sexton (38:51)

And yet the Canadian authorities know that by policing language and by using these like, we're all gerbils getting little electric shocks, by using these constant tools of shaping the way we discuss and therefore think about these things, we don't have to. Rather, the Canadians don't necessarily come to the very obvious conclusion, which is that these people are insane and need extremely serious mental help. The ones that think that they're, you know, women or whatever, it's very obvious. It's very obvious to everybody who is thinking for themselves. And also all of the enabling that goes on is a grotesque submission to an evil ideology. I mean, this is how this has to be thought of. This is how it has to be talked about. You know, I have friends now who will refer to. They'll call them like a tranny jihadi, essentially. These are like holy warriors for the trans agenda. Now, in Their own mind. People who think that they are standing up for, for a. I don't know what you even say, like the community, because as you know, there's verbiage or there's. There's talk about how there's a trans genocide because if you won't affirm you are erasing and therefore you not using the preferred pronouns, it's almost like you are making a species or a, you know, a group of people go extinct. This is Bonkersville. Like, this is crazy. And yet every major university in this country to this day pretty much still goes along with this like little automatons that are doing what they're told. Most of corporate America until five minutes ago was absolutely devoted to this. And the Democrat party to this day in this country is still doing this thing. And you know, we have to see this for what it is.

Megyn Kelly (40:53)

There was global news did a report on Friday about what happened in Canada at that mass shooting. We just discussed and listen to how they reported it. It's SOT 3. As Tumbler Ridge is grieving unimaginable loss, some community members are urging Canadians to resist division.

Maureen O'Connell (41:12)

This is really, really a time to.

Megyn Kelly (41:13)

Put that away and to really think about compassion and love. Trans people are substantially more likely to be victims rather than perpetrators of violent crimes.

Buck Sexton (41:24)

There's fear around different identities.

Jonathan Gillam (41:27)

What we know is that people don't.

Buck Sexton (41:29)

Do these things because of their individual identity.

Megyn Kelly (41:32)

Between 32 to 41% of trans people are estimated to have attempted suicide in their lifetimes due to stigma and discrimination. Something and now removed Reddit account Jesse boy3,47 appearing to belong to Van Rood Salard described.

Maureen O'Connell (41:46)

It really hurts.

Megyn Kelly (41:47)

I am genuinely considering taking my own life. Yeah, I mean, I mean this is. That's just sheer propaganda. That's a Canadian news outlet. That's fucking propaganda. This is in the wake of this guy shooting over 30 people, eight dead, 25 injured. And this is. It's all about how the trans people are the real victims here.

Buck Sexton (42:10)

Yes, of course. No, there's a. And in fact I think you could, you know, again, I'm not a psychologist, but did a lot of research into this. It's kind of a covert narcissism, I think they call it where. Or a victim based narcissism where no matter what you do, you're not responsible because somebody else has done something to you first and therefore you're absolved of all moral agency. And by the way, you know, you see this with Hamas, for example. Oh, you know, we had to go in with the suicide vest on and blow up a bunch of people on a pizza talking about second intifad. I'm not talking about the recent war, that's a whole other conversation. But we had to blow up a whole bunch of people at a, at a bar mitzvah. But you know, they took our land a long time ago. So we got OK guys, we need to actually live in the world we're in now and look at ourselves as human beings who make choices and have individual agency. And this is removed from us in these, in these processes where they talk about this. I also think anyone who, if you strip away the propaganda, if you strip away the confusion and degradation that is that the heart of the trans agenda's menticide, both of the individuals suffering from it, but also from all the people who are supposed to clap and say oh, and like trans affirmation, all this stuff when they say things like 30 to 40% of trans individuals have tried to commit suicide. Which also has nothing to do with the mass shooting, Meghan, which you just pointed out. Why are we trying to create sympathy? But maybe that's because they're deeply mentally ill. And instead of applause and special days in school celebrating it, we should get them help. They need help. You know that, that, that is the kindness, the kindness. And I hate when people weaponize kindness because it really is the most beautiful human thing is to be kind to each other and to take care of each other. But when they say be kind, use the pronouns. Pretend that the 200 pound guy who's, you know, breaking girls noses on the female lacrosse field is just a girl like everybody else. First of all, they're being quite unkind to those women. And in the case of these horrible situations with these mass shootings, it's really, it is evil for the state and for the society.

Megyn Kelly (44:23)

You're endangering your community, you're endangering your own kids, your, your society's kids. That's why Bucket's like this year we met Tish Hyman who is now running for mayor out in la. You know her? Oh, I'm show you the clip and she's going to come to mind immediately. But that's why it's so I call it, I always try to make this show what I call it, Cool water over a hot brain. You know, like I don't want the audience to ever have to work for it. You know, I want them to hear the news and it's that they understand it immediately because I didn't use a term that not Everybody understands without defining it. I didn't reference a news story that not everybody knew about without giving them a quick two liner on it. And Tish Hyman is cool water over hot brain. Tish Hyman went out to the Gold's Gym and tried to work out and saw this dude pretending to be a woman but. But barely, barely continuously stripping down in the women's locker room. And she had it. I'm going to show you the clip. You'll remember her, but she's cool water. Here it is. I don't.

Buck Sexton (45:24)

Men, grown men with big dicks in the women's locker room. And that's why I'm getting kicked out.

Jonathan Gillam (45:33)

And I want to make sure the girls know the.

Buck Sexton (45:40)

Everybody saw that man in the locker room. No one saying, and I'm done with it. It's stupid. It's dangerous, me making in front of a man without my permission. But I ain't the one who get.

Megyn Kelly (46:00)

Kicked out the gym, y'. All.

Buck Sexton (46:01)

I'm terminated for not wanting men in the locker room.

Megyn Kelly (46:06)

All right, Buck Sexton, you tell me, as the author of Manufacturing Delusion, what makes a Tish Hyman say f this it's a no versus the so many others who. Who get caught up in the madness, bend the knees, say the pronouns, whatever. We're just on the trans thing right now, but we could apply this across the board on the WOKE issues.

Buck Sexton (46:30)

Well, first of all, she's a. She's a civil rights hero. And I know that the media will never say that, but she's standing up for the civil rights of women, full stop. If I had a daughter, I have a little son, but if I had a daughter who was trying to work out in the gym and she had some dude next to her and you know, the whole. So we can't have gender separate spaces. We can't have women feeling safer. And anyway, we know this. But. But you're asking a very important question. And I do get into this toward the end of the book and by the one thing that I'll just note, I have a whole chapter, Meghan, on how mind control in the era of. Of AI and deep fakes and possibly even brain implants, like we're entering a whole new. So it's really important to understand all this stuff now and how these things work together and how these tactics are used against populations for control and for power. Because that's ultimately what this is about. This is about controlling people so, so that, you know, you can be in power, the group, the entity, whatever the individual there was also incredible brilliance and beautiful thought that came out of some of the dissidents. And one of the great examples of that would be Alexander Solzhenitsyn. And his probably most famous phrase is live not my lies. And that's a, you know, it's a very important proclamation. It's a very important mantra. The woman that you showed here out at that gym, and I remember that clip very well, we talked about it on radio. She refuses to live by the lie. She just won't do it. And if you go through your life that way, if you refuse to live by lies, it's really hard to control your brain. It's really hard to make you part of the hive mind, to make you a tool in someone else's quest for power, to bring you into political madness. The madness of crowds and really all starts with the individual. There's no group defense against this.

Jonathan Gillam (48:31)

That's what everyone has to say.

Buck Sexton (48:33)

It's all an individual. It's a group process of falling into madness. But you only return to your senses one by one. Is actually Mackie in the Madness of Crowds wrote not too. Not too far back. So, yeah, that's.

Megyn Kelly (48:47)

Buck, this is. This is incredible. This is such an important book right now. I mean, this social experiment, this seizing of control in every corner is happening all around us. It really does explain what we have seen on the streets of Minneapolis, what we've seen when it comes to the transition madness, what we've seen when it comes to some of these mass shootings, what we've seen with the crazy race, essentialism and people pretending that things are as bad right now as they were during Jim Crow. It's because these people have been the victims of manufactured delusion. That's the book. Manufacturing Delusion. How the left Uses Brainwashing, Indoctrination and propaganda against you, against its own and against you. But unlike most on the left, you actually have a shot at standing up against it and going with the live not by lies that we saw Tish Hyman stand up for as well. Buck, thank you. I love talking to you. Good luck with the book. Everybody go buy it. Support Buck.

Buck Sexton (49:47)

Going to say one quick thing. I just think this is particularly full circle. Megan and I really, first of all, I really appreciate you and you really find out who your friends are when you've spent 18 months sweating blood and tears for a book and six months of CIA review, who's, you know, who's got your back? You are my very first interview on pub day. You were the first person that I wanted to talk to about this book. And I think it's full circle because you're also the first person who ever put me on primetime TV when no one had any idea who I was. And look how it's all worked out.

Megyn Kelly (50:17)

I knew you were going to be a star.

Buck Sexton (50:18)

Thank you.

Megyn Kelly (50:19)

I knew it.

Buck Sexton (50:20)

I appreciate you very much.

Megyn Kelly (50:22)

Listen, I'd love to say it's all benevolent, but thank you for your excellence. You're always fascinating to talk to. Buck. I never walk away from a segment with you thinking anything other than my God, he's so smart. Smart. Thanks for your being here and thanks for writing this. This is truly an important book.

Buck Sexton (50:35)

Awesome. Thanks everyone.

Megyn Kelly (50:38)

All right guys, check it out. Manufacturing Delusion. Get it today. As you well know, the New York Times is not going to be doing a nice spread on Buck and his book. So we need to support him and give a middle finger to the New York Times and we tell them we decide who's going to be a best selling author, not them. Okay. Manufacturing Delusion by Buck Sexton. Up next, the latest on the Nancy Guthrie case. When it comes to your dogs, why does there often seem to be compromise when it comes to their food? It's either fresh and healthy or easy to store and serve. But with Sundaes for dogs, you can get both. Founded by Dr. Tori Waxman, a veterinarian and mom who got tired of seeing so called premium dog food full of fillers and synthetics. She designed sundaes, air dried real food made in a human food grade kitchen, used using the same ingredients and care you would use to cook for yourself and your family. Everybody's clean. It's packed with real meat, fruits and veggies. No weird ingredients, no fillers, and best of all, just scoop it and serve it. No freezer, no thawing, no prep, no mess. Just nutrient rich food that fuels their happiest, healthiest days. Consider making the switch to Sundays. Go right now to sundaysfordogs.com Megan50 and get 50% off your first order. Or you can use code Megan50 at checkout. That's 50% off your first order at Sundays for dogs.com Megan50 Imagine relying on.

Buck Sexton (52:04)

A dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected and each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound like amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple Efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up today@odoo.com that's o-o o.com based.

Megyn Kelly (52:35)

On a New York Times best thriller comes 56 Days, starring Dove Cameron. A story of love. Oh, sorry. I'm Oliver. I'm Ciara. Lies. So, do you like secrets? No, I like reveals. Seduction. It's like they were obsessed with each other. And murder.

Buck Sexton (52:55)

We got here.

Megyn Kelly (52:56)

Body in a bathtub. 56 Days premieres February 18th on Prime Video. I'm gonna get you. Not if I get you first. We are now more than two weeks since Nancy Guthrie went missing in Tucson, Arizona. She lives with a pacemaker. Plus we are told she needs medication to stay alive and has limited mobility. In other words, time is and has been of the essence. And yet we don't know where she is. And day after day after day, we are seeing a delay on the processing of the DNA found on those black gloves that were found two miles from Nancy Guthrie's home. Because this local sheriff refused to send the gloves and to the FBI lab at Quantico, insisted on using his lab in Florida. And apparently they're having real difficulty due to the FBI protocols in uploading any of that information or making sure it's of the quality needed in order to run it into the federal database that compares the DNA to that of known criminals or CODIs. It would have been nice if he could have just cooperated with the FBI and conceded that it's possible the gold standard lab at Quantico might do a better job. But it appears to many of us that this is a turf war in the sheriff's mind only. And rather than using all the resources of the FBI in order to expedite things because there's an 84 year old woman who's missing and may be dying, he wants to protect his turf. He likes to be in control. There's something very off about this sheriff. Very off. Okay. Yesterday we told you during our show that while the sheriff was trying to say, or NBC news at that point had said they're moving away from the family. Then after the show, the sheriff came out and said none of the family member is a suspect. I'm saying it affirmatively. The family members are not suspects in this case. Okay? That's not consistent with what we were told by our federal law enforcement sources, which was, no one's been ruled out. No one has been ruled out, including members of the family, diametrically opposed information. So we decided to go back and say, all right, well, what is it? The sheriff's. The sheriff, he may have learned something that changed. What he told the Daily Mail on Sunday, which was the same as our federal source. No one's been ruled out. That was Sunday. Then Monday, the sheriff said all the family's been ruled out. What happened? Do we get DNA back? Do we get a polygraph? Do we get phone data? What did we get? Here is what we got. The sheriff, according to Matt Finn of Fox News. Matt reports, quote, I just asked Sheriff Nanos if DNA helped clear the Guthrie family from being suspects. He says, quote, not going there. They are victims. And I will not stand quiet when they are re victimized. It is not just my duty is that it is every cop's duty to stand up and be the voice for victims. What? Enter Tom Winter of NBC News, who reports it explicitly, quote, there is no indication this is the result of any new evidence. No indication this is a result of any new evidence whatsoever. So what happened here quite clearly is the sheriff decided probably after a phone call from the family. He says he mostly speaks to Savannah to just say nobody there is a suspect anymore. When 24 hours earlier he said, no one's been cleared. And that's what we were told by our federal law enforcement source too. No one has been cleared. But. But magically over the course of 24 hours, because it's his duty to stand up and be the voice for the victims and will not stand quiet when they are revictimized, the sheriff finds the wherewithal to say just no one's a suspect in the family. Okay, maybe that's true. Maybe they're not the prime suspects now. Maybe they're moving away from the family, as NBC reported yesterday. But it's diametrically opposed to. But what? But to what both the sheriff said 24 hours earlier and what my sources said within hours of our reporting yesterday. Okay, so something's off. And we don't do feelings in a criminal investigation. We don't do feelings, we do facts. Okay? That's how it's supposed to work. And the sheriff should know better. It's actually quite interesting now because I'll show you what the douchebag Chris Cuomo is saying. In fact, let's just play it now. It's SOT 52. He's very upset that Ashley Banfield and yours truly have raised questions about the brother in law. Ashley's reporting. And based on Ashley's reporting, we've asked questions on this program. And here's Fredo Cuomo on his little known of show on News Nation, which has less viewers than I have fingers.

Buck Sexton (57:47)

Now, look, I've never heard law enforcement.

Chad Ayers (57:49)

Make this kind of a statement during an investigation. And I'm not calling for the family.

Buck Sexton (57:52)

To be removed from suspicion. The job is the job. Right, but the job is also. You don't speculate just because you don't care that you're destroying this family just because it may get you some clicks. But I want to correct something the sheriff said. It's not the media. No one who pays attention to the law or any standard of decency is doing this. What these digital people are doing. It's the digital media. It's those denizens. It's people who get paid for clicks and rage bait. All right? These fugazi, sloppy influencers and would be sleuths, right? The truth about whether Nancy Guthrie's family is under scrutiny. She doesn't know a damn thing. The reason the cops are going back.

Chad Ayers (58:36)

To the comb is because the police think she did it.

Buck Sexton (58:38)

Where'd she get that bullshit?

Chad Ayers (58:42)

The video messages from the family are like a movie.

Maureen O'Connell (58:45)

It's from Silence of the Lambs.

Megyn Kelly (58:47)

Why are they doing that? Okay, so let me tell you what Fredo is really upset about. He has Fredo. No Rado. That's his real problem. Nobody watches his show on News Nation, and I mean nobody. And nobody watches his failed podcast either. Nobody watched his serious radio show. Nobody watched him on cnn. And therefore, he gets upset at anybody who does. Well, like our show, which is always one of the top three conservative podcasts in the nation. It's currently number one on Apple. Fredo doesn't like that. Okay? Because as I say, Fredo know Rado. So he gets upset and he gets jealous sometimes. In the past on this show, we've called out Fredo for his terrible behavior, for his bad ratings, for his lies about bumping into people who just happen to be listening to his podcast, because literally nobody does. And Fredo can't take criticism. And I'll tell you something I've never told before. Fredo actually called my lawyer, who he happened to use briefly on a legal matter, and begged the lawyer to get me to stop mentioning him. He didn't want me to attack him because it hurt his little feelings. So now Fredo sees an opportunity to attack yours truly, because, of course, we're doing well with this story, too, as we do when we do other news, which Fredo can't relate to. So Fredo's upset, and Fredo's trying to play the protector of the Guthrie family. Meanwhile, there are few in news who have done more for the Guthrie family than this show. We have covered this story extensively since it broke because he, Fredo, doesn't understand. But I too am a news woman. Like Savannah, I too, worked at the Today show. Like Savannah Guthrie, I too have been the victim of a deranged stalker, which may be one of the possibilities here, something Fredo doesn't realize we've covered extensively as well on this program. I too know Ashley Banfield extremely well and she's had extremely solid reporting for 20 years in the crime and other fields as well. And so when she tells me she's got a solid source, I take her very seriously. And I also saw this matter being discussed. Guess where else on News Nation, all around Fredo, by Elizabeth Vargas, by Jesse Weber, Dan Abrams, who had the show right before Chris Abrams or Chris Cuomo for years, did a long segment on it with Ashley Banfield. It's all over Fox News. Jesse Waters, Sean Hannity, up and down the lineup, Laura Ingram, all of them have discussed whether the brother in law had anything to do with it. Because in an investigation like this, you don't rule out family because of feelings. Because of your little feelings, Fredo, because I know you're in the business of protecting your family. Okay? We learned that firsthand during COVID when you put your loser brother on there and ran cover for him. And then ultimately it was one of the things that led to your downfall because you didn't report honestly on his many, many problems during COVID or his many, many problems in grabbing women. And perhaps the reason you chose not to do that is because you yourself were accused of having a me too problem. And as you well know, okay, we had the senior executive producer on this program who talked all about you and your behavior in a bar with her. There was another woman at CNN who came forward against you who did a whole podcast about the discomfort you made her feel. And then there was an anonymous woman who came forward who was the last straw before your firing. So you have a long history, I understand, of running cover for family. That's not what we do here on the actual news. We talk about what the police are doing and we try to glean where the investigation is going. And we especially do that when we have a sheriff who repeatedly, when asked whether anyone has been ruled out, says, no, no one's been ruled out. Absolutely not. Not the family. No one. No one's been ruled out. Everyone remains a suspect until we have somebody in handcuffs. That's the way you do it. And you especially do it that way when the sheriff's tows the car belonging to the sister and her husband and impounds it, you do that. When the sheriff and the FBI continuously return to the sister and her husband's home taking pictures in the middle of the night with the lights off, suggesting there may be something that they need to capture. In the same hour of night as Nancy Guthrie went missing from her home. Go back time and time and time again to search the home and take belongings from the home and take photographs of the home, which is not the crime scene. So this is what a responsible reporter does. What they don't do is stage news. Okay, I just. I need to help you, Fredo, because you're a little begging to my lawyer to get me to lay off if you didn't work. So this is what you're going to have to deal with actual facts when you try to come for yours truly. This is what we don't do. We do cover facts. We do follow leads, but we don't stage news, Fredo. We do not pretend that we are walking out of the basement, our basement, during COVID Haven't smelled the fresh air in months. When everybody knows you were on the street in an altercation involving your bicycle weeks earlier. Remember this moment on cnn.

Buck Sexton (63:57)

All right, here is the official reentry from the basement. Cleared by cdc. A little sweaty.

Jonathan Gillam (64:05)

Just worked out.

Buck Sexton (64:06)

Happens. This is what I've been dreaming of literally for weeks. My wife, she was cleared by the cdc. She doesn't have fever. She doesn't have the symptoms anymore. More than seven days from her quarantine. We're still a little scared. So I just give you one of these. Just give you one of these. Just give you one of these. Just give you one of these. Bella has a few course taking the video. This is the dream. This is for when we go outside. That's what we have to do now. All of us in New York. So, anyway, I'm back.

Megyn Kelly (64:41)

His mask, it was all fake. He'd been on the street. It had made the New York Post. And he humiliated himself. And he continues to humiliate himself with his four viewers. Envy is a very unattractive thing, Fredo. Work on that. In any event, we've had a few updates since our show yesterday, including News Nation's Brian ENTEN saying the FBI is now visiting gun stores with a list of 40 names and 40 photos. That's very interesting. Agents are asking whether the people on the list have purchased a gun at that store. That they're visiting. It's unclear if all 40 are persons of interest or what exactly is happening there. I have a theory, but more importantly, my panel's going to have thoughts. Joining me now for reaction, Chad Ayers, former SWAT team leader, former Navy SEAL and FBI special agent Jonathan Gillam. And Maureen O', Connell, a 25 year old veteran of the FBI and co host of the Best Case Worst Case podcast. Great to see you all. Welcome back guys. So it's very interesting to me. We'll get to the gun stores in a second. But the fact that the sheriff comes out, Jonathan, just based on like feelings, it's, it's my obligation. He says that they are victims and I will not stand quiet when they are re victimized. It's just my duty, it's every cop's duty to stand up and be the voice for victims. With NBC reporting, there is no indication this is the result of any new evidence whatsoever. So what is the sheriff doing?

Jonathan Gillam (66:15)

Well, I think he's making an emotional statement and it's not based in fact because you can't clear people unless you know the motive and you know you have suspects and you have, and perhaps they do have that stuff. And he's not saying, but he's not the voice of the family and he doesn't speak for the family. He is there leading an investigation. And so, you know, as you go through and do case study after case study, you'll see where law enforcement has cleared family members before only to come back years later and find out that it was a family member that profited from the death of someone and actually either hired somebody to do it or carried it out in some way that they just weren't able to find until later on. So listen, if it was one misspeak by this sheriff, that would be one thing. But he keeps saying and doing things that I think have put this investigation in real jeopardy. And I think anytime that you tell public that you need to calm down or tell the media, you need to calm down. The problem with that is that you're losing that force multiplier. So instead of saying these people are no longer a suspect, they're cleared, he should just come out and say, listen, the vitriol is getting so bad against people that you have no evidence against and we're not looking at currently that you're causing threats, you're causing potential danger to these families. And I need that to stop because it's hampering the investigation. You see how much better that that would have been if he would have said that. I mean, this guy, he's pointed out once that one of the reporters asked him a question. She had a name that resembled a male's name. And he got into a conversation laughing about that. This is like two days after this disappearance. And so I think. I think that he just. He's been in, it says law enforcement in his bio for 50 years. But for somebody who's been in law enforcement for 50 years, he does not know how to work the media, and he certainly does not know how to run a task force investigation that utilizes all the tools in the toolbox.

Megyn Kelly (68:24)

Well, here's what's crazy, Maury. Now he's saying to Local 13 News that the family's been 100% cooperative. He said that before and that family members were ruled out as suspects in the first few days. Now, if he means Savannah, I can accept that. I believe she was in New York at the time her mother went missing. But if he's referring to Annie and Tomas, it's a lie. That's a lie. And we know it's a lie because we need only to look back at the sheriff's own statements. Here he is in a montage dating back since the beginning of this case. In stop 50.

Buck Sexton (69:00)

Nobody's eliminated, but we just really don't.

Chad Ayers (69:03)

Have enough to say this is our.

Buck Sexton (69:05)

Suspect, this is our guy we know or our gal. We just don't know that. Are you actively investigating the son in law in this case? You said you haven't eliminated everybody. Have you eliminated him or come close to it? We're actively looking at everybody we come.

Chad Ayers (69:20)

Across in this case.

Buck Sexton (69:21)

Everybody. So cliche, but everybody's still a suspect in our eyes. That's just how we look at things and beg your pardon, as cops. Does that mean we have a prime suspect? No. And the family has been very cooperative. They've done everything we've asked of them, and we want that relationship to continue. And sometimes people can be mean out there and. And that can really harm us and harm our efforts.

Megyn Kelly (69:52)

Weird. Maureen, that doesn't sound the same to me as all of the family members have been ruled out as suspects from day one.

Maureen O'Connell (69:59)

No, it doesn't. And he acts as if we're all being unreasonable for even questioning whether or not Annie and her husband are involved when, as I've said numerous times, and you know, all of us on this, on this panel here, we've done a number of rollback warrants to different locations, but I've never done six on one location. I mean, we're just Following. We're the ones following the facts. When law enforcement shows up at a house over and over and over and seizes a vehicle, you know, and then the one, her husband, Tommaso, has been completely out of pocket. No one has seen him since that day. He did like that, you know, the gangster lean in his car trying to get away from the press. It's, it's. We're not the ones being unreasonable here. And the only thing that this sheriff has said that has been definitive and decisive since the very beginning of this case was this report that the whole family is just not even in the crosshairs for this investigation any longer. Don't even think about it, Don. Finito. Well, that's going to be a big problem if we can't bring someone to justice. And then, as your other. Our other panel member said, and then two years or three years down the road, we get additional information, and now we're. We're saying, oh, yeah, someone is in the frame for this again. Now what are we going to do? It's going to cause problems for the trial. You got to think about the trial more, you know, focus on what this trial is going to look like.

Megyn Kelly (71:37)

Chad, I think about, you know, the chamas is who people have speculated about originally based on Ashley Banfield's reporting, but also because obviously you look at the family first and you know, who else you look at? You look at the last person we know for a fact to have seen her, and that is Tomas Sione, Annie's husband. How do we know that? From the sheriff. The sheriff told us that he said it to the New York Times on the record and then admitted that, that when he went back to that presser and said, oh, we're going to go with just the family, he changed that only because he didn't want to draw too much attention onto Tomas. Well, that's the most foolhardy thing ever. You can't say I'm changing it from Tomas to just the family because I want to remove any suspicion or focus on Tomas, especially when you've been going to his house overnight repeatedly, you've sent people in there to search who have left with evidence bags. And we know that you impounded the family car. And you refuse over and over again to say that he's not a suspect on camera to reporters from the beginning of the case.

Chad Ayers (72:46)

I mean, the sheriff needs some serious media training. He's not good at crisis management either. He's not good at crime scene management at all. We've got, you know, investigators discarding their gloves. We've had. I still don't. Do not understand why Nancy's house was not roped off, taped off, sealed until she's brought home. We talked about that the other day. We are seeing sloppy, sloppy investigations going on here. And just like Maureen said, this is this very. Well, Megan can affect the trial if and when someone is brought into custody for this. So again, what is going on? This is Police 101. I mean, this sheriff's acting like he's on paw patrol. This is policing 101. You start with the family, all right? You start with the people who last saw Nancy.

Buck Sexton (73:33)

Family.

Chad Ayers (73:34)

So again, in this back and forth stuff, this is why nobody, you know has any credibility with this guy.

Megyn Kelly (73:40)

Mm. It's so true. And he's not doing anybody any favors. If this were me and my mother, God forbid, I wouldn't care if they focused on me, my husband, my brother in law, my sister in law, anybody, I would not. As long as they were still talking about my case, I'd be thrilled. That's it. What is the family of every missing person want? Media coverage. They would give anything to have the three of you moderating a panel about their missing loved one day in, day out. If they had to be the subject of the speculation, so be it. The whole point is to keep your loved one in the news so that people are still thinking about her and looking for her. That's the name of the game. It's the only name of the game when it comes to finding a missing person, assuming you have a competent law enforcement leader who's going after the search. Now, in the meantime, it does appear that they're pursuing other avenues which are good shoe leather police work. And that leads me to the FBI going into these gun shops and asking if they know anybody, if anybody on this list of the 40 names or the 40, 40 pictures has been in there to buy a gun. What is that all about? Maureen, I'll start with you on it.

Maureen O'Connell (74:56)

I think what they're doing is, it seems to me as soon as I heard that number, that they probably have about six suspects that they're looking at. And the gold standard for like a photo array or for what we call a six pack is to have one defendant or one person we're looking at in with five other innocent people. So if you, you know, divide 40 by six, you get a little over six. So I think they have six people, they're looking at maybe seven. And they put them in photo arrays with known individuals that don't have any criminal backgrounds or others, and they're showing them to the gun owners with a whole list of names just to see if anything pops out. But it's. It's a way to look into everyone without telling them who you're looking at. Exactly. If that makes sense.

Megyn Kelly (75:48)

Yes, yes. They have to do it this way, Jonathan, because they. They can't. It'll be a bad lineup if they don't.

Jonathan Gillam (75:56)

Sure.

Megyn Kelly (75:56)

It won't be admissible.

Jonathan Gillam (75:57)

Yeah. And also, you know, we. We're so stuck on talking about DNA that sources and other methods that the FBI and law enforcement in general have. You know, when these people do bad things, things, they usually usually and typically run in a bad crowd. And people will give hints or they'll talk about, or they'll tell in confidence another bad guy what they've done. And so sources that, that we have, that are paid sources or they, they're working off a debt, those individuals can. Can spring a. An investigation forward, you know, very quickly. And that could be where some of this information is coming from. You know, and so when you do get a list of names and you go out there and you float these things, it's just showing me that just like Brown University, where they were having these terrible press conferences and people were like, what is going on there? Well, the investigators were there just killing it, man. They were doing incredible work. And that investigation was. Was closed very quickly. And I think that's. That's probably what's happening here, that despite the sheriff, the FBI, and the. The investigators, even though we've heard that the investigators on the case for the sheriff, that he kind of cleaned house and has very inexperienced investigators running that case, but I still think that there's people there that are. That are really working hard. What I also don't see, which, when you got to look at the total brutality of circumstances of these things, is the fact that, you know, they found one glove in like 15 or at least a dozen gloves that have been thrown down.

Megyn Kelly (77:34)

The FBI said they found 16.

Jonathan Gillam (77:35)

Right. So gloves that searchers have thrown down. So what that tells me is there's a lack of standard operating procedures, a lack of briefing, which signals a lack of control by the investigative lead agency, which is the sheriff's department.

Megyn Kelly (77:51)

That's a good point. I mean, I'm hearing the same thing, Chad, which is that there. There are a bunch of novices in the sheriff's office with respect to those who are serving that. They're all maybe two years onto the job, three years at most. And so these are baby Homicide cops and don't have the experience when it comes to investigating cases like this of the ones who left because they can't stand working under this sheriff. Some of that seems to be manifesting in the case. The FBI, however, with this, you know, visiting the, of the gun stores thing sounds that's they sound like they're on their game. 40 names and 40 photos asking the gun stores to tell them whether or not these people have been inside the store and whether they have purchased a gun.

Maureen O'Connell (78:33)

Can I something. Oh, sorry, Chad. No, go ahead, Chad. Sorry.

Chad Ayers (78:37)

No, I was just saying we'll do.

Megyn Kelly (78:38)

Chad and then. Maureen.

Chad Ayers (78:38)

Yeah, no, real quick. I think it's just important to know that obviously in these gun stores you go in to purchase a firearm, you fill out the ATF Form 4, ask you a bunch of questions. So that's great. It's a great starting point. Obviously, we know this person was armed. We saw it. Is it possible that they'd use some digital enhancement and able to identify what kind of firearm that is? Possibly. But again, coming from my side, I also know that many times criminals aren't going to gun stores and purchasing their firearms. Most of them are purchased off the streets. And these things are hot anyways.

Megyn Kelly (79:15)

Not ideal. Go ahead, Maureen.

Maureen O'Connell (79:16)

I was just going to say I'm not going to throw the sheriff's department under the bus. And even if someone only has three to five years experience, if you had a really good training officer or a really good detective that was training you for those three years, you're going to make really good, solid decisions. I just, I know that they're pouring their heart and souls into this. I can see them out there working. They're all paired up with FBI agents and we're, we learn from each other in these instances. So I'm not going to go down that road with just throwing that whole department under the bus because I don't believe that's fair. And with regard to the gloves, those 17 other gloves that they found, they had a bunch of volunteers out there doing as part of the search and rescue team, and they're going to have a different standard with regard to evidence and evidence collection and how we do things. And then they had the support employees or the civilian employees that were also out there that are also a part of that contingent, that group. And then they had the sworn officers. Each of those groups has a different standard for what they do. They should be trained at the same level, but oftentimes they aren't. And when the FBI comes in, we always have a bag that we designate from the beginning. Hey, guys, this is where all our trash goes. So our Tyvek suits, gloves, everything like that goes into that one bag. But there's been more than one occasion where that bag has blown off and stuff's flying all over the place and you're trying to pick it up. So I. There. There are things that happen. Obviously they should have all been picked up. None of them should be left. Should have been left there. But there are mitigating circumstances to a certain extent.

Megyn Kelly (81:01)

Well, that's the thing, is that we've got so many eggs in the basket of these gloves. And the DNA analysis being done by the Florida lab, which is completed, but now it has to be uploaded onto CODIS to see if it matches any of the perps in the federal database. But they won't upload it until they've been assured that, like, the quality of it is adequate. I don't totally understand what the FBI is doing there, but I guess they're not going to upload it until it's of a certain quality. And now they're saying it has to be shipped back to Arizona and then to Quantico. All of this is like Nancy Guthrie could be lying dying somewhere. I mean, truly, like many of us think she may have already passed, but what if she hasn't? What if she is sitting there clinging to life and really can't go many more days without her heart medication and is wondering what's gonna happen to her? That we should not have a delay over lab processing, but that's where we are. On the other hand, Chad, we do have some promising possibilities on the backpack and Walmart. Okay? The New York Post is reporting that detectives have been handed their, quote, most promising lead yet, according to a former top cop who they interviewed, who said that Walmart has now handed over the purchase records for backpacks that match the one used by the perp, the abductor. It's a black Ozark trail hiker. They're 99% sure that's what it is. And that bag is sold exclusively at Walmart. So that's great. Now, they do point out, look, it doesn't mean couldn't have wound up at a Goodwill or a thrift store or a flea market or been gifted by somebody to somebody else, but let's face it, the overwhelming odds are that this guy bought it and he bought it at a Walmart. And so they're going back now and trying to figure out, thanks to, like, the SKU numbers, you know, the. Where you scan Your little number when you buy something, who bought these backpacks, when, where, and trying to find videotape that'll match the transaction and any other identifying information. I mean, this is, this seems to me like good old fashioned police work.

Buck Sexton (83:05)

Very good.

Chad Ayers (83:06)

One thing I can say about Walmart is they have phenomenal technology and cameras in there. Every register has a camera in it. We know we have them at the entrances, the parking lots. So what will be really interesting is I did read one thing and it may have been on X or something that they believe that type of ski mask is also sold at Walmart. So what a goal, what a golden.

Jonathan Gillam (83:31)

Egg this would be.

Chad Ayers (83:31)

Megan, if all of a sudden you see the guy with the old sole patch and the backpack and the ski mask, at that point you better start stretching and get ready because things are going to start moving really quickly. But it's almost like a tale as old as times. How many Dateline episodes or crime shows have we seen where they go back and this is how they're caught? They go back to the Walmart, the Ace Hardware, and you see them buying the type of equipment to dispose of a body or to break in or whatever.

Megyn Kelly (83:59)

Tape. Exactly. It's a shovel, it's duct tape, it's a tar. I mean, like every other Dateline we're still dealing with every other date.

Chad Ayers (84:08)

This is still a criminal, right? Criminals aren't smart. They do screw up. And I get it, I'm sitting there going, well, this guy's covered his tracks pretty well so far, but there's still criminals. And somewhere he has screwed up in that crime scene.

Jonathan Gillam (84:21)

You know, the only.

Megyn Kelly (84:21)

Well, that's the thing, Jonathan, this guy, he will not. He didn't think he was gonna get caught on camera that night at Nancy Guthrie's. He did not think so. You know, he wore his little ski mask to protect his identity. Then he thought he was hiding or covering up that camera and then eventually took it down. I'm sure he was shocked to learn that there were still images of him. So what are the odds when he bought this backpack? We're told if it's what they, if it's the backpack, they think it's only available at Walmart. What are the odds this guy was there buying it thinking, I've got to hide my identity here. They're going to figure out I had this backpack. Meanwhile, he thought he wouldn't even be on camera. They're gonna figure out I have the backpack though, and I gotta hide the trip to Walmart. I just, I, maybe I'M wrong. But even the D.C. pipe bomber accused, who seemed like autistic and yet very smart in some ways, had bought like pieces of that bomb in this Radio Shack, in that store and this store and the other store and waited years between the purchases to make it look less suspicious. But they pieced it all together. What are the odds that this guy. Mr. I'm going to shove some vegetation on it. Was so meticulous in the lead up that every single purchase was masked in a way that he's not identifiable.

Jonathan Gillam (85:31)

But they're thinking, it's hard to understand these criminals in the way that they think. I mean, one thing is they're bold enough and comfortable enough with walking onto somebody's porch at 2am and then going in, breaking in and staying in there for what we know, at least 41 minutes. That's the comfort zone that they work in, which is, you know, it can be a psychopathic type of where they don't have a conscience like, like we would typically have. And they, so they don't feel the emotions like we feel. So they can go in and do these things, but it doesn't mean that they're good at what they do and so what we typically see. And again, you know, yeah, I've been the FBI and done all these other things, but watching 48 Hours binge, watching that for years and years, what you're going to see are statistics and behaviors and things that come out with these people. And they do things because they, they don't have the conscience and they're not scared, but they make these gigantic mistakes or micro mistakes that really giant investigators are able to get, go out and find. So I think that diligent investigation and agencies that do their work in a, you know, fast is smooth, smooth is slow. And when they do that and they really take in all things into account, you will see these, these mistakes these criminals make and it's just, it's profound. We mistake, though, we say all the time that this was a, what's the word that they use? That this was an advanced or that this person was, had some type of expertise in this. I mean, as we see with that guy, his expertise was walking up, covering himself completely up and walking into a home. But I'm sure he didn't think that when he dropped that glove a mile or more away from the home that that was going to be found by investigators. I'm positive that he didn't.

Megyn Kelly (87:26)

Well, if that's his. Yeah, if that says we don't.

Jonathan Gillam (87:29)

And one of the big One caveat to that bag, I will say, and to Walmart, is that they do live very close to the border and there are Walmarts in Mexico. So he could have gotten that bag in Mexico. And if that's the case, then it throws a whole nother problem into the, into the case.

Megyn Kelly (87:46)

And we're also told that the Tucson Walmart does not have that ski mask. They don't care. They don't keep them in stock. And so that would have to be, be an online purchase if he got that at Walmart. I mean, that one could have come from Amazon, et cetera. So that one may be a little tougher to track. Maureen, can I ask you? Yesterday I did the show without you guys and the breaking news yesterday morning was that a local reporter in Tucson was claiming, based on an inside source, she didn't describe it, but as law enforcement, et cetera, that this whole case has moved closer to believing that A, Nancy may be alive and B, that this was a burglary gone bad. Now, no sooner did she take to the airwaves and report that than both of the FOX News reporters on this, citing their federal sources said getting serious pushback on that, on both pieces of it. They're not saying Nancy's dead. They're just saying don't sign me up for, we believe she's, you know, we strongly believe she's still alive and the burglary thing, but she's standing by her sources and she's, she's had good reporting thus far. Do you believe that, that this was plausibly a burglary gone bad?

Maureen O'Connell (88:56)

No, no, I don't, and I don't know of many burglars that go into a house don't take anything of value other than a female victim who's practically immobile. So, no, I don't think that's. I, I wonder who her source is and what they heard that they misunderstood because it just doesn't seem to make any sense to me at all.

Jonathan Gillam (89:24)

I wouldn't rule it out, though. I wouldn't rule it out and I hope that they don't.

Megyn Kelly (89:28)

Why not? Because the reason I rule it out is because he didn't take anything other than Nancy that we know of. If you're going to steal and. Well, yes, but I mean, I feel like the sheriff would have told us if there, we have reason to believe there was some burglary. There was a burglary aspect of it. I feel like he would have, maybe I'm wrong, but he, he, you know, like you, you break in there, you're going to steal something. Maybe you bump into the homeowner. Maybe she got up for a cup of tea in the middle of the night because she couldn't sleep, and you decide you're going to take her because she saw your face or what have you. You're. Aren't you at least going to take your loot, too? You're going to take something besides the old lady and the hassle it could be.

Jonathan Gillam (90:01)

Well, yeah, it could be. But see, we. First of all, we don't know what he did or didn't take. We don't know at what point if he was in there burglarizing the home. When she woke up, she could have woken up immediately and he injured her or killed her immediately. And then he tried to. He spent 40 something minutes trying to figure out how to get her out of there. Also, I've heard people talking about, well, his backpack is full. Well, you know, every time I order something online, like a drone or. Or something, I get a backpack with it, and it's cheap. And that guy could have had 20 bags stuck inside that backpack that he has. So we don't know what his intent was. So that's why I just say I don't rule these things out, just like I wouldn't rule out the family being a suspect or actually having paid somebody to carry out this crime. As investigator, I take these, each possible lead or each possible theory, and I put them on a dry erase board. And then as the. The evidence comes in, then I will chart that evidence underneath that one particular avenue of approach that I'm looking at. And so, as crazy as it may sound, there's always a plausibility. And I think when you look at the fact that we don't actually know when and what happened inside that house, then you can't say that his intent was not to show up there and. And rob the place.

Megyn Kelly (91:26)

I want to talk about a couple of other possibilities here because, you know, we've been talking about the. The other possibility. There's a few. You know, there's. Yes, I suppose burglary gone bad is one of them. I don't think it's most plausible, but okay, it's one of them. One of the Lanes is family member who wanted to get rid of Nancy for some reason. One of the lanes is stalker of Savannah Guthrie, who wanted to get closer to her, wanted to hurt her, something like that, you know, doing something to the mother they couldn't get close enough to Savannah. And then there's also the Possibility of just random ne' er do well. Or somebody who didn't like Nancy. Yeah, a worker who. Nancy didn't give him a good enough tip. Nancy said the wrong thing. They, whatever. They saw an opportunity. And there is still the possibility of legit kidnapper who decided to, like, steal this old lady because she had a famous daughter and he thought he could extract a bunch of money from her. So there's a couple of those lanes that I wanted to explore with you guys today, including stalker. Savannah stalker there. It just so happens that just this week, a BBC presenter, that's what they call them over there, news anchor who is Scottish. She works for Scotland's BBC, or is it gb? In any event, she's a UK broadcaster for the BBC and she's Scottish. Her name is Ann McAlpine and she just came out this week and gave an interview about having been stalked by an erotomaniac, a guy who very wrongly believed that they were in a relationship, even though they had never, ever met. And here is what she said in.

Ann McAlpine (93:05)

Sat 61 was letters that started coming to my work. And they. They were declarations of love, poems, gifts, CDs, cards, those sort of things.

Buck Sexton (93:20)

So more than fan letters.

Ann McAlpine (93:21)

Yeah, and they were quite frequent in nature as well. Sometimes I would receive up to three or four in one week over the course of about eight to 12 months. Didn't think a huge amount of them at the time. I didn't find them particularly threatening. Unpleasant and uncomfortable, certainly. Yes, and a bit of a nuisance. But a lot of the time these letters would end up in the bin, depending on where I was when I read them. So they were in block capitals, all signed off by the same name. So there was a reference point, there was a name, and they were also dated. But I got engaged at the end of 2021 and the tone in the letters sort of shifted.

Buck Sexton (93:59)

Why? Because the engagement was public?

Ann McAlpine (94:01)

Yes. And I think this person seemed to think that we were in some sort of relationship. They would comment on. On the clothes that I wore on tv, the way that I moved, the way I held my pen. They thought I was giving subliminal messages through the television.

Megyn Kelly (94:17)

Chad, that is so chilling, because as I told you guys, that's exactly what happened to me with my stalker, who was an erotomaniac back when I first started at Fox News. He thought he was getting messages from me through my hand gestures on television. He thought that we had some whole coded language that we spoke to one another, all of which was made up by this unwell person. And there you see it happening to this gal, too. Is it possible that it was happening to Savannah Guthrie too, whether she knew it or not? And this person saw a soft target featured in that Today show segment she did about her mom where she went to Tucson and showed off Tucson. And they sat in a Tucson bar and had moments margaritas three months before this happened.

Chad Ayers (95:03)

Well, I'm sure that the FBI is diving into Savannah's unread or you know how your texts or the Instagram messages go to a separate folder if you're not friends with people? I'm sure they're diving into that. But Megan, you bring up a great point. We have seen an increase and there's a term out there called extreme misogyny, and that's these guys, predominantly men, that just have this hatred. They get a friend request or they see someone on TV and they truly believe that, you know, there's some. This is a mental illness and that they are being invited into some type of relationship or that this person is communicating with them. And when they do not get what they are looking for, that extreme misogyny, they turn to violence. It is hard, though, to wrap my head that this person would turn and kidnap an 84 year old woman to take out your anger. But I guess it is plausible. It is possible. If you. If you want to affect the hearts of a young woman, go take her mother.

Megyn Kelly (96:04)

I mean, that's one of the reasons why this. This story is so compelling and has so many eyeballs, which is like, who takes somebody's mom? You know, it's just like. It's. It's just. Has it ever happened before somebody's mom got stolen? That's like one of the things. It's so bizarre that we're all searching for some explanation. Let me play one more sound bite on it. Yeah, go ahead. Chad.

Chad Ayers (96:27)

Just one more thing because I think you've done a really good job. There's so many keyboard investigators out here that are saying, hey, I'm getting tired of this case, yada, yada, yada. We have a family whose mother is missing. Anybody out there who's that had a mother or a loved one that would go missing would be begging for investigators. And just like you said in the media to be covering this 247 until you brought them home. Yes. This is a little bit more high profile because of who Savannah is. It doesn't matter if it was Tom, Dick or Harry down the street. Someone's mother's missing and law enforcement's out there doing the best they can.

Megyn Kelly (97:03)

One other soundbite from anchor Ann McAlpine, 62.

Ann McAlpine (97:08)

So there was a situation where I was getting dropped off by a friend and colleague after a late shift. It was dark and this man was standing in the middle of the road holding a carrier bag.

Jonathan Gillam (97:18)

Outside your home?

Ann McAlpine (97:19)

Outside my home. He approached the car. I was still in the car talking to my friend. He held eye contact, was walking towards me quite slowly, and something just felt really off. He didn't look friendly, didn't look like he was looking for directions. He didn't look like he was going to speak even. He came right up to the passenger side of the. Of the. The car, just looked in. And I said to my friend, listen, I think you should drive off. And we locked the door and drove off. And then I called my husband to come to the front door to meet me. So that was the first incident outside the house.

Megyn Kelly (97:53)

Yeah.

Ann McAlpine (97:54)

And it sort of intensified after that, a few months after that. And my neighbors were involved in sweat as well because he was trying to gain access to the house. He was buzzing the flat in the middle of the night. He would stand in the middle of the road, just look up at the window.

Buck Sexton (98:06)

What, in the middle of the night?

Megyn Kelly (98:07)

Yeah. Yep.

Ann McAlpine (98:08)

The first time was in the middle of the night. And then he was sort of sitting on my steps waiting for me.

Megyn Kelly (98:13)

All right, Maureen, my point is, if you were like this about Savannah Guthrie, you couldn't get anywhere near her. She is too well protected. That's all I'll say. But trust me, she is. But you could get near her exposed 84 year old mom. Right.

Maureen O'Connell (98:29)

And she. She's got a good security team. Savannah does. And they were in contact with the police shortly after, you know, this event unfolded, began to unfold and they were working on anybody that was, you know, looking at her from afar or from close up. But, you know, she just had that surgery a couple weeks ago and she was in a hospital on her vocal cords. Yeah. And, you know, maybe her mom was the emergency contact. Maybe that is something that sparked something like this in someone. But, you know, having.

Megyn Kelly (99:08)

Or the Today show feature.

Maureen O'Connell (99:09)

Yeah. Well, there's one thing that anyone with two eyeballs can say for sure, and that is Savannah Guthrie loves her mom unbelievably, just like a lot of us do or have. You could just see it. It was so apparent and it was so beautiful to see. So if you did want to exercise some sort of control over her, that would be a way to do it. But something's got to be done to, to stop this nonsense because, I mean, going all the way back to, you know, the early 80s, I, I was a victim of a stalker when it really wasn't even a word yet. And everyone was just like, oh, you just got to deal with it. No, I don't have to deal with it. Finally, my mom did and then my uncle and then some other police officers stepped up to try to help the situation.

Megyn Kelly (99:57)

It's illegal. It's totally illegal.

Maureen O'Connell (100:00)

It wasn't illegal.

Megyn Kelly (100:01)

That woman, that Scottish broadcaster got a restraining order for life against the guy after a criminal trial. So he, he'll never be bothering her again. Listen, I, yeah, well, now hold that thought because I got to take a quick break. We're going to come back. I know Chad's got to run, but I, I, I am going to play you Savannah Guthrie on kidnapping from her book in an incredible excerpt. That's next. We'll be right back. If you're looking to make smarter choices for your health this year, consider Riverbend Ranch. Their steaks are not only delicious, they also contain real high quality protein that helps fuel your body. Beef is a complete protein, complete and contains all nine essential amino acids your body needs to function. It also keeps you fuller for longer, reducing cravings and snacking. But here's the key. Not all beef is created equal. The quality of the beef depends entirely on how it's raised and where it comes from. That's where Riverbend Ranch stands apart. For more than 35 years, Riverbend Ranch has been building an elite Black Angus herd, carefully selecting cattle for exceptional flavor and tenderness. All Riverbend Ranch cattle are born and raised right here in the usa. They never use growth hormones or antibiotics and the beef is processed at the ranch in their award winning USDA inspected facility. No shortcuts, no middlemen, just incredible, healthy and flavorful beef shipped directly to your home. Order today@riverbendranch.com and use the promo code Megan to get $20 off your first order. Relief Factor loves hearing from pain free customers and hopes they can help you next. One user of Relief Factor named Kim wrote to them to say, quote, before trying Relief Factor, I struggle just to make it through my work days. I'd collapse on the couch at night, aching everywhere. Within a few weeks of starting Relief Factor, the daily pain began to fade. Now I'm keeping up at work and I still have energy left for my family. There are many stories just like this of parents having more love to give but less strength to share. Relief Factor doesn't just ease pain. It can restore evenings, laughter and the simple joy of being present. If you want to feel the difference, like Kim with back pain, knee issues or stiffness that is slowing you down, Relief factor could give you your mobility back. Relief factor is 100% drug free and targets the inflammation that causes pain. In order to move better, feel better and actually enjoy life again, try the three week quick start for just $19.95. Go to relieffactor.com or call 804 RELIEF. Let's see if you could be next in getting out of pain.

Buck Sexton (102:38)

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Megyn Kelly (103:22)

A roll that feels like paradise and always at a heavenly prize. Angel soft. Angel soft. Soft and strong. So simple. Pick up a pack today. Angel soft, Soft and strong. Circle. Hey everyone, it's me, Megyn Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on Sirius xm. It's called the Megyn Kelly Channel and it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered with no agenda and no apologies. Along with the Megyn Kelly show, you're gonna hear from people like Mark Halprin, link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily jasinsky, Jesse Kelly, RealClear Politics and many more. It's bold, no BS news only on the Megyn Kelly Channel, SiriusXM 111 and on the SiriusXM app. Welcome back to the Megyn Kelly Show. We're back now with our panel and I'm like kind of stunned by what we have here. This was found online originally by somebody on X who goes by McCann case tweet. And this woman, I don't know flagged that Savannah's book, which was released in February of 2024, discussed a game she used to play as a kid with her cousin and it was a kidnapping game involving Nancy. So we pulled the audio that Savannah did of her book. She in it, you're gonna hear her talk about her cousin Terry who was, she said, like an aunt to her growing up. Terry's 20 years older than Savannah, so Terry would be 74 right now. But listen to this. About once a year in the summertime, cousin Terry orchestrated A kidnapping of my sister and me. It went down like this. The cousins would visit for a few days at our house in Tucson. And then on the morning they were to leave, Terry would wake us up early, shushing us in the pre dawn darkness. As we made our escape. We would all pile into her rickety station wagon and head north. The sky streaking with bright oranges and pinks as the sun rose over the colorless desert landscape. Somewhere between Phoenix and Tucson, Terry would make a pit stop and let Annie and me call home at a payphone. Mom, Cousin Terry kidnapped us to take us to her house. My mother would feign shock, protest how terribly she would miss us, then assure us she'd drive up to retrieve us in a few days. Jonathan, that is just eerie. It's eerie. She. She released that in 2024, talking about kidnapping and her mom and her sister and Savannah, a cousin. I don't know about cousin Terry. I'm not sure whether cousin Terry's still in the picture or what. But I'm not suggesting cousin Terry is behind this. But I'm suggesting that just the mere discussion of kidnapping amongst the Guthrie family is potentially the kind of thing that could put an idea in somebody's head, could potentially be relevant in trying to track down where somebody first got the. The notion of a kidnapping. And the Guthrie's. And then you have, three months ago, Savannah with her mom in Tucson on the Today show, showing off where they eat, where they hang out. But I'm just trying to piece together how this possibly could have even come about. Since the idea of kidnapping a mom is unfathomable to most of us.

Jonathan Gillam (106:44)

Yeah, that is. There's a lot of detail to that story. And so, you know, I have a degree in political science and psychology. Double major, that is. I call it a double useless degree. But some of the things that I do remember out of psychology that really stands out is that there was one woman who had one of the case studies. She had like 14 different personalities. And she had a sister. Well, they were both abused as children. And her mom, their mom would do things like when they were. She felt they were being bad. She would put them in a bathtub with scalding water and make them sit there. And one developed this incredible deep psychosis. The other one was pretty normal and just hated her mom. So, you know, this is another reason why I wouldn't rule people out. And I'm not saying people should go down this rabbit hole, but as law enforcement, I don't rule these things out. Because if the Sheriff's never heard this before. This would be something that I would definitely look into. But anybody who's read that book, as well as you both have talked about stalkers. And we heard the other individual from, I think it was a BBC or wherever she was talking about her stalkers. People latch onto things in weird, weird ways. And I know Megan, Maureen, perhaps you have, because you're on TV a lot. And I know Megan, you probably had these where you get emails from people that say some of the weirdest things, especially if you've been in the FBI. They're like, can you help me out with the FBI? Or people write and say, hey, can you introduce. I used to host for Sean Hannity on the radio. I was just filling host and people would write me and say, hey, can you, can you get me in touch with Hannity? I got to tell him these things. Right, right. That's not realistic. And, and so I think when we look at, again, the totality of that show that was on there, it showed where Nancy lives. It talked about Savannah, and then there's this book out. This is kind of a striking coincidence, which does happen sometimes, but a striking coincidence I think needs be to, needs to be looked into. And I would, if I was investigating this, I would be looking at the people who continuously send TMZ these emails about how they've seen Nancy, right?

Megyn Kelly (108:59)

Oh, yes, we're going to get to.

Jonathan Gillam (109:01)

That because there's another one because that is the individual who very well could be responsible. Again, if these people are that wacky like you were talking about, or this other woman who was stalked, a person thought they were in a relationship. So if a person, they could be thinking two different things at the same time and, and, and still trying to get some kind of glory out of this. So I, I would really seriously be looking at that.

Megyn Kelly (109:30)

Hadn't even considered that. Had not even considered that the, that they. What seems like a fraudster continuously emailing Harvey Levin at TMZ about how I know who the kidnapper is and I want a bitcoin half, half now, half later might actually be the kidnapper looking to insert himself into the discussion as opposed to the person who wrote the first two. 4 million, $6 million demands. Sure, that's an interesting thought. Had not even considered that because a person sounds so farcical. Hold on, put a pin in that, because I do want to come back to that. But while we're on the subject of the potential stalker, we showed this a couple weeks ago with all of you, but let's Take a look at that Today show segment that I've now referenced a couple times before you guys came here in the 70s and you'd been moving all around. What made you want to stay in Tucson and plant roots? It's so wonderful. Just the air. The quality of life is laid back and gentle. I like to watch the javelina eat my plants. But the best thing is about Tucson is coming home. Yes. You guys, should we raise the glass? Prickly pear margarita. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Love you. Love you. It's eerie now. It's sad. Maureen, you're right, by the way. You there, there. The pictures of Savannah and her mom are, like, very compelling. They're very compelling. You can see the love rating radiating off of these two. And I. I can relate to. To it, honestly. It's like Savannah used to not. We've talked about it many times. Her dad died when she was 16. My dad died when I was 15.

Maureen O'Connell (111:01)

My dad died when I was.

Megyn Kelly (111:02)

Sudden heart attacks. Y. Yeah. Like, it. There's something I don't know.

Maureen O'Connell (111:06)

Your mom becomes your mom, and your dad your mom.

Megyn Kelly (111:09)

When you.

Maureen O'Connell (111:10)

When your dad dies young, your mom becomes both parents. And my mom wasn't the tough guy when we were kids, but she had to become one because she had six teenagers when our dad died.

Megyn Kelly (111:21)

Well, there's. It's no accident you became an FBI agent. It's definitely no accident you became an FBI agent. It's not. And it's no accident Savannah and I both went to law school, and then we both became reporters. And I don't know. I would suggest for the record, maybe we both had something to prove of our own. Like, there's no question that the loss of a father figure and an actual father at a very young age has a profound impact on a young woman. And Savannah did not want to leave her mom when it was time to go off and get her first reporting job. And the mother insisted that she do it. I understand that, too. It was like I had it more when I went to college. I felt so bad because I was the third kid, and I did not want to leave my mom alone at all. You know, I knew she'd be alone, and I did. My mom said, you're going, like, get out. This is it. I insist. And I went. And so it's incredibly sad and it's incredibly awful to think that something as sweet as a segment with her mom could possibly have played a role in the mom's targeting or, like, a, you know, a fun childhood story about, like, a silly game. But that silly game involved the word kidnapping and even a fake kidnapping within the family where they took her. You just never know. It's going to set a lunatic down the lane.

Maureen O'Connell (112:36)

He or she goes, sweet baby Jesus, can we just rid this world of all the lunatics? They are just outnumbering us at this point. It's crazy. But with regard to the kidnapping thing, in her book, it sounds like the older cousin Terry was just coming up with some secret plan to get the kids up early in the morning to get them out of the house to beat the traffic. And she just had a. A good imagination. How someone else takes that is a totally different matter. You know, my dad, if he were late coming home as a joke, he would call my mom and, you know, she'd be all upset, and he would just say to her, hey, Mary, don't pay the ransom. I've escaped. And we would all crack up and she'd say, that son of a gun, you know, but. So there are people that can find a little dark humor in things. And our whole. My whole family's first responders. So we all have that kind of dark humor. So I'm not blaming.

Megyn Kelly (113:41)

We're Irish, so we have it.

Maureen O'Connell (113:42)

It's so true of the Irish. It's. We can't. We try to hide it, but it just. When it comes out, you just see everyone burst into laughter and you know, yes, you just got it.

Megyn Kelly (113:52)

We joke about everything, everything inappropriate and appropriate. That's. It's a great way to go through life. Honestly, it's like that. That's why you don't get too stressed out. And hopefully you live a long life because you're not running around with high cortisol all the time and you laugh it away. It's a very effective tool.

Jonathan Gillam (114:09)

If we got rid of all the bad people like Maureen saying social media would be reduced about 10% of the people that go on there every day.

Megyn Kelly (114:16)

So this is also true.

Maureen O'Connell (114:18)

Some potential lunatics would dive right in. Don't. Yeah.

Megyn Kelly (114:22)

And now that leads me back to the fourth letter that Harvey Levin got over at tmz. So as the audience knows, I know Maureen's rolling her eyes and throwing her head back. I know we all feel. Feel that way. Like, what the f. I'm starting to.

Maureen O'Connell (114:35)

Wonder, does Harvey have an alibi for where he was that night? Just kidding.

Megyn Kelly (114:41)

Some. Some. Many of the Twitter followers, like, they're so fed up with, like, the way this investigation is going. They've been like, they've. They've been like, have they checked Under Nancy's bed. Have they. Have they checked the basement? You know, some basic searching mechanisms that they're pushing. But here's what's. What's happened. Harvey Levin has now gotten four letters from someone not claiming to be the kidnapper, but claiming to know who the kidnapper is. And for the low, low price of one bitcoin, he will tell Harvey who the kidnapper is. That's how number one started. Then it grew to, well, now the FBI is offering a hundred thousand. Bitcoin's only worth 65. So I'll take a hundred thousand for my information now. And I want it to be 50 grand in Bitcoin coin before I reveal and the other 50 after I reveal different iterations of this then. And also, he was offended that they raised the award. He was like, I feel attacked. Something like that.

Maureen O'Connell (115:37)

I thought that was great.

Megyn Kelly (115:38)

Sounds like an absolute. So Harvey was on tv, you'll be shocked to hear, talking about this development. And here is what he said.

Buck Sexton (115:51)

SOP57, I have something to say to you, and I have already talked to the FBI about this, that if you are not real, you're committing a crime. This is the fourth letter you've sent, and I should tell everybody that in this letter, it says, I know what I saw 5 days ago south of the border. And I was told to shut up. So I know who he is. And that was definitely Nancy with them. This is the second time he has referred to more than one person involved in this. He also says one of the reasons he's worried about coming forward is he has a record. He has a burglary on his record from 10 years ago. If you're worried about getting this money and you really do have this information, send it to us. You're sending us these letters. Send it to us. We will forward it to the FBI. So this is a way for you to get that money if this really is legitimate.

Megyn Kelly (117:03)

Okay, so now, in the third letter, by the way, that preceded this, Harvey said the man had written, be prepared to go international. Be prepared to go international. And so now we've got a fourth letter claiming he saw Nancy with, quote, them in Mexico. Jonathan. I mean, to be honest, we haven't fully explored the south of the border possibilities. The sheriff kind of ruled them out the other day. I mean, I don't believe the sheriff. I gotta be honest. I don't believe a word that comes out of the sheriff's mouth. But the other day he did say, like, no, we don't even think that's a Thing. So I. Okay, based on what your Democrat policies truly like, how have you totally ruled out south of the. You don't know who fucking did it? Sorry, I'm just. I've had it with this guy. Should we be talking. Should we be paying a bitcoin and a half to see what this guy may know about south of the border?

Jonathan Gillam (118:04)

Well, first of all, let me say that, you know, again, hosting radio, you make live reads so easy because they're terrible. But as you can see, Harvey Levin, who I figured he would be able to read a little bit better than that. That was terrible, first of all.

Megyn Kelly (118:18)

But it was pretty stilted.

Jonathan Gillam (118:19)

Yeah, so.

Buck Sexton (118:20)

But.

Jonathan Gillam (118:21)

But listen, this goes back. I found something very striking. I've heard him read that already a couple times, but for whatever reason, it didn't jump out at me that the individual that is supposedly Ryan is this. These letters. First of all, are they coming from the same email? And if they are, then that is very telling. Secondly, I think he said.

Megyn Kelly (118:40)

Yes, I think he did say they are.

Jonathan Gillam (118:42)

So the individual just said that he has a record for burglary. Now, I find that very odd as well. As I told you last time I was on here, 20% of the people who commit a homicide are the ones who call in and report the homicide. So they think that's going to keep them out of trouble or for whatever reason. And so it could be the case. And I would hope that they were looking into this, that this individual could be the one who was actually going in there to burglarize the place. Didn't even think about TMZ or anything. And then these other potentially fraud ransom letters came in and were read by tmz. And so this individual reached out because he wants to get some money for something. Perhaps it was a robbery gone bad. But the reality is, again, when we're looking at the totality of all these things, this is how you go down as an investigator. You have to look down these rabbit holes. There's so many different cases that were not solved until years later because they just did not take a second to stop and say, what? What is this? Is there a possibility here? Because statement analysis is one of the most important things that you go through, I think, as an agent. Unfortunately, a lot of us don't go through that much training. I got the opportunity to. I wasn't a polygrapher, but polygraphers are amazing at it. And statement analysis can tell you a lot. And that last email was. Was that. That he got. That's very odd that it. That he mentioned that he has a record for burglary.

Megyn Kelly (120:12)

It's so interesting. So maybe.

Maureen O'Connell (120:15)

Go ahead.

Megyn Kelly (120:17)

Maybe we need to be. I mean, Maureen, that's a very interesting theory that like, because Harvey keeps saying, I'm telling you, they're taking the, the earlier two notes that demanded a $4 million and $6 million ransom. That's what the first note to Harvey said, you know, to, to the media, the, the two local Tucson stations and then Harvey too. And then the follow up note didn't offer proof of life but seemed to be reiterating like I want the money, that those are not the real ones and didn't come from a real kidnapper, but possibly a these, the weird 1234 emails that followed with this guy who seems very much to want attention and also a bitcoin and a half that possibly, possibly it is the real kidnapper trying to get a quick buck off of this and just behaving very recklessly.

Maureen O'Connell (121:06)

Well, water seeks its own level. And this seems to be at about the same level as the activity we saw on Nancy, Nancy's front porch.

Megyn Kelly (121:15)

Yes, it kind of does.

Maureen O'Connell (121:16)

Yeah. With regard to the border, it is 60 miles away. It is a place where you could, well, you could do it anywhere. You could certainly do it in the United States also. But you could have, you could pay someone to take care of Nancy while you go through the negotiation process to get your money. You know, but there would, there are great cameras at the border, you know, so if we're looking at that time frame, the, the time that this event potentially ended and, and then go 60 miles or we always look at windows. We always start with these windows. You can expand out or you can hone in, but we're going to start with a window like that. So there. It would, it would definitely give us a whole bunch of leads. And I'm fairly certain they've got to be looking at that anyways because it is a line of inc. Inquiry that is logical and we always follow these logical paths. But we were told initially that that was. No, no, no, no. That isn't what was happening. I don't think the bureau would listen to that. I think they, they would have definitely looked that way. My friend Jim Galliano, he, he was the legat in Mexico and he talked the other day on fox. The type of behavior that you would see at our league at working with the other people or working with everybody else in the government there at the embassy and in other places and all of our partners, we have really strong partnerships in Mexico. Believe it or not the FBI does. We have a number of FBI agents assigned down there. We have DEA agents assigned down there, all kinds of people and we work together all the time. So if I have a lead in Mexico, I would say send that lead to Mexico. I would speak to my counterpart there. They might refer me to the DEA or Department of State. So there is a well oiled machine in all these different countries. But I would say in, in particular Mexico, we have a very good working relationship with our counterparts.

Megyn Kelly (123:20)

Unfortunately, you don't know if, if he, if somebody took her south of the border, if they were smart enough to store her some place for a day or two until the heat wasn't as intense and then cross the border with her in the trunk or something. And you know, let's face it, a guy in, in his 30s with the black mustache and the black goatee or soul patch, not going to look suspicious driving from Arizona into Mexico. That probably happens about a thousand times a day. Unless you forgot to take off. I don't think it would have drawn a lot of suspicion.

Maureen O'Connell (123:52)

Unless he forgot to take off the ski mask and the gloves.

Megyn Kelly (123:56)

Well, I mean if, if we got that lucky, my God. And they didn't crack that one, then that, that really is.

Jonathan Gillam (124:03)

There is another case. I don't know, I just heard it in passing on one of the other networks, a former FBI agent was talking about a case where recently in recent history, a guy was. A wealthy male was abducted and taken into Mexico for, for a ransom. So from Tucson. So for this sheriff to say he said that, I think the first or second day that it is not likely to be something from across the border. I mean again, that's a political statement. Just like I think the other thing about clearing the family is an emotional statement. I think that's the wrong avenue to go down because immediately he just stopped that force multiplier of people. Considering the fact that it might have gone over the border or come from over the border. But I was, I will say this. If this individual.

Megyn Kelly (124:50)

How can you, how can you say that's not a thing when you, you, you don't know who did it? That seems like, oh, it definitely wasn't a Mexican, it wasn't an illegal. You know, it's like it's a political. But you have no idea who it was. Kind of sounds like, how can you possibly say that?

Maureen O'Connell (125:04)

It's kind of, it kind of sounds like he, he was thinking the same thing we were thinking at that time.

Megyn Kelly (125:11)

Yeah, right, exactly. Maybe, maybe his focus was elsewhere. So he Was pretty sure it wasn't somebody from Mexico. I don't believe a word he says. I really don't. I. Right now I'll believe my own eyes and I'll watch law enforcement and see where they go and let that be our guy, Megan. But I don't believe the sheriff's words.

Jonathan Gillam (125:29)

I'll say this. If, if this was not a kidnapping for ransom and something happened in that house and the individual moved her, whether she was alive or she was already deceased at that point, I would suggest the possibility that she's within probably two hours of her home because that this occurred and the removal was close to 3 o' clock in the morning, which would give you about two hours of sunlight. And people that aren't that comfortable with moving somebody or that experience, they may be experienced with going into a home when everybody's asleep and robbing a place or burglarizing. But if they're not experienced with moving somebody and there's been a situation where something went awry, then the possibility is they wouldn't want to move them after the sun came up. So because they did this in the dark, they're comfortable in the dark. There's a potential she's within, I would say two hours driving distance, which could lead over the border, but most likely was somewhere within that vicinity.

Megyn Kelly (126:31)

Yeah, definitely could because they said she's about an hour from the border. Clearly the police were also considering the possibility that Nancy was killed and left somewhere near her own property. I mean all those searches in the backyard, that looking in the sewer or whatever that was, pacemaker Bluetooth they're looking for now, the septic tank, the pacemaker exactly like. And by the way, Ashley Banfield interviewed somebody who said that that that helicopter, you know signal seeker can, can read sniffer about a thousand feet away. So it can. But like that, that's great. I mean that's better than 50 or 30 or. But like a thousand feet, like a helicopter that's 1,000ft above me on the ground is going to freak me out. It's going to freak out pretty much anybody. I don't. I just can't imagine that things going to be able to get super low throughout the Tucson area without completely upsetting the, the local residents for what it's doing up there and how low it's going to come and is this safe. They're already complaining about the media, about the police. The neighbors are have about had it with this whole thing. But look, a woman is missing. All right, we're going to leave it there for today, you guys, but to be continued. And thank you as always, Maureen and Jonathan, great to have you.

Maureen O'Connell (127:45)

Thank you.

Jonathan Gillam (127:46)

Thank you.

Megyn Kelly (127:47)

All right, we'll be back tomorrow with plenty of news. We're actually preparing a deep dive on Epstein for you. There's been so much going on over the past couple of weeks. I mean, it's just like there's been so much irresponsible reporting on this as you sort of sit back and watch them just throw out a name and then that name and then that name and it's like, okay, they're not all the same. Like, what, what exactly did they do? Tell me exactly what this person did and that person did did. In any event, we took a shot at trying to figure that out and we will bring that to you tomorrow along with the latest in this case, of course. We'll see you then. Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly show. No bs, no agenda and no fear.

Buck Sexton (128:31)

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Megyn Kelly (129:06)

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