True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989

Summary

Summary of "True Dangers of Men in Women's Prisons, as Trump Drives Change - Deep Dive with Maddy Kearns | Ep. 989"

The Megyn Kelly Show Episode 989, released on January 23, 2025, delves into the controversial topic of housing male prisoners in female prisons. Host Megyn Kelly engages in a comprehensive discussion with Maddie Kearns, Associate Editor at The Free Press, exploring the implications of former President Donald Trump's executive order aimed at protecting women from gender ideology extremism within the federal prison system.

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Introduction to the Issue

Megyn Kelly opens the episode by highlighting the nationwide celebration of Trump's executive order, which seeks to "defend women from gender ideology, extremism, and restore biological truth to the federal government" ([00:55]). She underscores the significance of this policy change, particularly for female prisoners who have historically been housed with male inmates due to previous administrations' policies.

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Case Study: Rhonda Fleming's Legal Battle

Maddie Kearns introduces the central case of Rhonda Fleming, a female inmate serving a 27-year sentence for Medicare fraud since 2009. Fleming's prolonged placement with male prisoners across various federal facilities sparked her legal battle to secure women-only housing.

• Legal Proceedings: In a lawsuit filed in 2017, Fleming challenged the practice but was unsuccessful. The Trump administration partially rolled back these policies, but Fleming continued her fight, leading to a recent legal confrontation against the Biden administration. On January 14, the District Court in Florida ruled against Fleming, stating that her claim of constitutional rights violation was unpersuasive due to available protections like shower curtains and partitions ([03:03]).

  "The judge ruled against her and found that her claim that being housed with two men violated her constitutional right to bodily privacy." – Maddie Kearns ([03:03])

• Federal Bureau of Prisons Defense: The lawsuit was defended by Erica Strong, the warden at Tallahassee Federal Prison, representing the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Kearns explains that the policy stems from a 2012 Department of Justice directive under the Obama administration, which allowed housing based on gender identity rather than biological sex, leading to significant security and safety concerns ([04:39]).

  "Half of these men in women's prisons are sex offenders. So it's, you know, it's really just a recipe for disaster." – Maddie Kearns ([05:06])

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Impact of the Executive Order

Megyn Kelly questions the potential longevity of the executive order, emphasizing the need for a Supreme Court ruling or congressional legislation to ensure its permanence beyond President Trump's tenure ([07:13]). She points out public support for the policy change, including among Democrats, indicating a broader shift in societal attitudes.

Maddie Kearns elaborates on the immediate effects of the executive order, noting that it clarifies policies by emphasizing biological sex over gender identity in prison housing decisions. She anticipates ongoing litigation from LGBTQ+ activists but remains optimistic about the policy's foundation.

"With Trump's executive order, it's going to take time to implement. There's going to be a lot of litigation from LGBT activists..." – Maddie Kearns ([09:54])

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Broader Implications and Public Reception

The conversation shifts to the broader societal implications, with Kearns highlighting that women's prisons represent a smaller, yet crucial, segment of the criminal justice system. She stresses the importance of protecting female inmates from potential assaults, especially considering the high proportion of sex offenders among male prisoners housed in women's facilities.

"It's really unjust on just so many levels." – Maddie Kearns ([11:02])

Megyn Kelly reflects on the paradox of Trump receiving limited credit for his protective measures towards women, juxtaposed against the criticisms he faces regarding his remarks about women. She acknowledges the tangible protections his administration has put in place, such as anti-sex trafficking laws and executive orders safeguarding female prisoners.

"He just passed the sweeping executive order to protect female prisoners, not exactly the most popular group in America." – Megyn Kelly ([14:16])

Kearns concurs, pointing out that feminists and left-leaning voices, particularly in the UK, have unexpectedly supported Trump's policies due to their alignment with long-standing feminist concerns about safety and protection for women.

"It's really been him that's delivered this and protected women." – Maddie Kearns ([14:16])

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Conclusion and Future Outlook

As the discussion wraps up, both Kelly and Kearns express optimism about the direction of women's rights and protections within the criminal justice system. They anticipate further legislative support and public backing for policies that prioritize biological sex in various spheres, including prisons and potentially impacting areas like sports and education.

Kearns emphasizes the growing public confidence to use sex-based language and defend women's rights, suggesting a shift towards more robust protections and societal recognition of these issues.

"It just changes a lot of minds." – Maddie Kearns ([16:30])

Megyn Kelly concludes by highlighting the collaborative efforts behind the executive order, acknowledging the contributions of various women's rights advocates and predicting significant positive changes for women's lives.

"The fingerprints of so many women fighters in this EO which is going to change women's lives for the better eventually." – Megyn Kelly ([15:24])

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Key Takeaways

• Policy Shift: Trump's executive order marks a significant reversal of previous administrations' policies on housing gender-diverse inmates, emphasizing biological sex to enhance safety and protections for female prisoners.

• Legal Battles: The case of Rhonda Fleming exemplifies the ongoing legal struggles faced by inmates advocating for gender-specific housing, highlighting the conflict between administrative policies and individual rights claims.

• Public and Legislative Support: There is notable public support for policies that protect women's safety in prisons, with potential for further legislative action to cement these protections.

• Future Litigation: Anticipated legal challenges from LGBTQ+ activists may shape the future landscape of prison housing policies, potentially reaching the Supreme Court for a definitive ruling.

• Broader Implications: The policy changes have far-reaching implications beyond prisons, potentially influencing debates on gender identity in other areas such as education and sports.

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Notable Quotes

• Maddie Kearns:

  "Half of these men in women's prisons are sex offenders. So it's, you know, it's really just a recipe for disaster." ([05:06])

• Megyn Kelly:

  "He just passed the sweeping executive order to protect female prisoners, not exactly the most popular group in America." ([14:16])

• Maddie Kearns:

  "With Trump's executive order, it's going to take time to implement. There's going to be a lot of litigation from LGBT activists..." ([09:54])

• Megyn Kelly:

  "We're going to talk about sex. That's what our policies and our laws should be rooted in." ([08:09])

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This episode of The Megyn Kelly Show provides an in-depth exploration of the contentious issue of housing male prisoners in female facilities, highlighting the intersection of gender identity policies, legal battles, and the ongoing struggle to balance individual rights with institutional safety and integrity.

Transcript

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[Megyn Kelly]

Welcome to the Megan Kelly show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon East. Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show and today's AM Bonus episode. The ramifications of Trump's executive order defending women from gender ideology, extremism and restoring biological truth to the federal government are being celebrated all over the country and certainly right here at the MK Show. Female prisoners also have reason to celebrate. Men cannot be housed in female prisons any longer. And thank God, because one journalist recently detailed a shocking story of one female inmate's journey and trial over being housed with men. And it completely underscores how just and needed Trump's order was and how disgusting Obama, Biden and Harris were in insisting that this be allowed to happen. Maddie Kearns is associate editor now at the Free Press, and she joins me now. Some therapists say that debt can make people feel desperate and helpless. It can ruin your sleep, creep into your relationships. It can wreck happiness. But there are ways to get help. Let me tell you about Done With Debt. They have aggressive new strategies to end your debt fast. Done With Debt stands between you and the bill collectors. They tirelessly negotiate to slash balances, eliminate interest, and stop the crushing penalties. All without loans or bankruptcy. Done With Debt has one goal. To wipe out your debt for good. Before you even consider making another payment, consider a visit to donewithdebt.com speak with one of their strategists for free and tell them I sent you. But you do need to hurry because some of these debt solutions are time sensitive and you don't want to miss out. Go to donewithdebt.com donewithdebt.com. maddie, good to see you again. How you doing?

[Maddie Kearns]

I'm doing well. Thanks for having me.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so tell us the story. Start with the opening. Who is the prisoner and what happened to her?

[Maddie Kearns]

Sure. Her name is Rhonda Fleming. She's serving a 27 year sentence for Medicare fraud in the federal prison system. And she's been in there since 2009, so before the Obama era policy got into play. And really since then, she's been housed with multiple men in various federal prisons throughout the country. And she's been trying to protest this. She's been trying to fight for women only spaces in prisons for a long time. She had a lawsuit that was unsuccessful in 2017. The Trump administration, first time round, did roll back some of this stuff, but they certainly haven't been as forceful as they've been this time. And then she just had this recent against the Biden administration, which once again allowed much more permissive policies. And that lawsuit was held in District Court in Florida on the 14th of January, and the judge ruled against her and found that her claim that being housed with two men violated her constitutional right to bodily privacy. He found that this wasn't persuasive because she did have access to some shower curtains and partitions in the restrooms and so on. And so he ruled against, against her. Now, I spoke to her lawyer on Friday, and he said to me, well, we're hoping that she won't have to appeal or at least that the appeal, it won't all depend on the appeal because hopefully Trump will come in and change the policy. And looks like he got his wish because we broke the story on Sunday that that is exactly what Trump has done with his new executive order.

[Megyn Kelly]

So who was defending the lawsuit? The Bureau of Prisons. The Federal Bureau of Prisons.

[Maddie Kearns]

That's right. So it was Erica Strong was the warden at Tallahassee, the federal prison in Tallahassee, and she was in her official capacity as a representative for the Federal Bureau of Prisons. So it was a lawsuit against the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

[Megyn Kelly]

And so was it the feds, was it the doj representing the Federal Bureau of Prisons?

[Maddie Kearns]

Yeah, so it's exactly. It goes up to the doj. And so this was a policy from the top down. So it started under object. In 2012, the Department of Justice under Obama issued this transgender prisoners offender manual. And in that, they said, you know, we don't have to base this on sex. We can base this on gender identity. And that's regardless of what they called, quote, unquote, genital status. If you can believe that. Oh, boy. And so, yeah, so that obviously just resulted in men who hadn't even undergone hormone treatment necessarily, or even surgeries being housed in women's prisons. And I should say, Meg, and it's not just men, it's men who are criminals. And according to the Bureau of Prison's own data, half of these men in women's prisons are sex offenders. So it's, you know, it's really just a recipe for disaster.

[Megyn Kelly]

And there have been cases of assault and rape.

[Maddie Kearns]

Yes, there have. There's a case in California just now. So California, this is talking about the state prison system. So they've got their own laws, and they have essentially a self ID law which just allows any prisoner, any male prisoner, to just declare themselves a woman, and then they are entitled. And the entitlement is a big problem here. They're entitled to be housed in a women's prison. And there was a really terrible case of a man who allegedly raped and impregnated fellow inmates. There's a lawsuit going forward just now represented by the Women's Liberation Front. They're a radical feminist organization who are opposing this, and they're hoping that they can get, you know, all the way through with this, because ideally, this would eventually go to the Supreme Court, because at the moment, Trump's executive order affects the federal prison system. But federal prisons are only. There's only 29 of these are federal prisons. The rest are 143 state prisons. And they can really do what they like, as we're seeing in California, with these really quite devastating consequences.

[Megyn Kelly]

And even at the federal level, if we don't get a Supreme Court ruling or a ruling from a higher court, it could just get reversed under the next president. Unless Trump changes the law, which hopefully he will. He's got four years. I mean, this was an immediate way to address the issue. And, you know, I think there actually is public support now to stop this. If you look at the latest polls, they're overwhelmingly on the side of reason, even amongst Democrats. So I actually think there is the opportunity for legislation here, but I don't know. The Democrats tend to be very cowardly on these issues. So what we'd really like to see is a law passed by Congress and signed by Trump that puts this executive order into permanent place. But short of that, a court ruling, especially from the Supreme Court, would be ideal. So the lawfare that's happening does matter. So what happens now? So she lost, by the way. What do we know? The background of the judge who didn't think it was a big deal and thought she could just protect herself with a shower curtain.

[Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Maddie Kearns]

I mean, I don't know too much about his background, so I don't want to sort of speculate, but I think it'd be safe to say he's maybe got, like, a more liberal record on some of these issues. And I think the lawyer also said, you know, it wasn't. I think maybe Rhonda, the plaintiff, got a little nervous, and there were some discrepancies between her deposition and the evidence she gave in court. So I think it wasn't like the dream day in court they'd been hoping for. But even still. Yeah. I mean, the fact that he ruled against her is obviously quite a statement. It should be a very easy case. You would think, especially, you know, most Americans can see this for what it is. I did think it was very interesting that Erica Strong, the warden of Tallahassee Prison, said in her statement, you know, this is really about Rhonda Fleming not wanting to be housed with prisoners she views as different to her. And you think, wow, like, we're not just talking about, you know, just thinking like, oh, I don't like that woman. She's too tall. Or, I don't like that woman. She's too fat. We're talking about an objective, recognized difference here, right, between male and female. And the fact that this has been, like, framed as being a sort of subjective thing is really, really troubling. And I think that is one thing. With Trump's executive order, it's going to take time to implement. There's going to be a lot of litigation from LGBT activists, and I'm sure a lot of these transgender inmates are going to sue if anyone tries to move them out of the women's prisons. But what it does do is it clarifies this very question. It says, no, wait a minute here. We are pointing to something objective. We're pointing to facts. We're pointing to biological sex, you know, the only kind of sex that there is. And. And so this is. This is what we need to be rooting our laws and our policies in in order to keep women safe.

[Megyn Kelly]

You know, what's interesting is now it's Pam Bondi's potentially doj. You know, I don't think she's not gonna have any trouble getting confirmed. And it's Trump's government. So the DOJ has the prerogative not to pursue, you know, appeals in certain cases or fight back on the Bureau of Prisons in certain cases. So I would imagine if RHONDA filed this lawsuit, you know, under President Trump, you might not even get a DOJ objecting to it. You might. She might just win. She could get potentially even a declaratory judgment that she had the right not to live with men behind closed bars. But now. But the. Where it will be trickier is where the trans person sues to say, I have the right to go in. Then Pam Bondi will go into court and say, no, you don't. We have a new federal policy. So there will be court decisions coming out probably in droves now, by the way, this guy was an Obama appointee. But we're going to start to see a bunch of court decisions now. And I think this is probably generally the beginning of a big case going up to the Supreme Court, which is what the trans community doesn't want. Not with six, three conservative to live.

[Maddie Kearns]

They don't want to as well. Because I think the policy is fundamentally indefensible. It's obviously dangerous, it's demonstrably dangerous to women to have convicted male felons housed with them. We've seen the results of this. You know, like I said, half of them, at least in the federal system, half of them are sex offenders. I mean, come on, that's just like. And I should mention as well, you know, I interviewed a former jail mate of Rhonda's who's now released, but they spent some time together and became close friends. And she was telling me, you know, she said she'd been raped, like, before going into prison. She said this is very common in prison, that a lot of women who get into a life of crime have been sexually abused. And so if you just imagine, imagine, talk about cruel and unusual punishment, just being in a confined space with men who may have assaulted other women could potentially assault you. You've been assaulted in the past. I mean, that's just. It's really unjust on just so many levels.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's a nightmare. So do you know how Rhonda's feeling in the wake of Trump's eo?

[Maddie Kearns]

Well, it was very, very difficult to get in contact with Rhonda. As you might imagine, the president weren't all that keen on her talking to. I did manage to speak to her. I won't say how exactly, but I wasn't able to consult with her after the trial. But I know that her lawyer is thrilled at this result. Well, not the result of the case, of course, but thrilled with Trump's policy. And I think it certainly is a morale boost for a lot of women who have been trying to fight about this for years. And I think the other thing as well is the American public have really woken up to this issue in a big way. But actually, prisons is a fairly, fairly small fish to a lot of people because they're thinking about sports, they're thinking about what's going on with children, they're not necessarily thinking about women's prisons. It's a kind of niche population. And so it's been all the harder for them to get people to pay attention, get people to care. And I think that they're hopeful that with the change of administration, with this new focus on it, that they're going to get some attention and rightfully get the public behind them.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's amazing when you think about it. You know, you think about all the, all the attacks on Trump when it comes to women. You know, I mean, that's. I made my debate question to him about the things he had said about women at that point as a celebrity. But of course, then all hell was unleashed against him with the. After the Access Hollywood tape and all these women coming forward to say this, that the other thing about Trump, E. Jean Carroll, whatever that was. And who, like, has Obama, has Biden, have they even arguably done more for women than Trump, who passed the anti sex trafficking law, who, on his first day in office, signs the sweeping executive order to protect female prisoners, not exactly the most popular group in America, not to mention girls in sport, not to mention women in their private spaces, you know, throughout university systems. So, like, he just a sweeping protection of women and women's rights for which he will get no credit at all. Maddie?

[Maddie Kearns]

Yeah, it's interesting, Meghan. I'm from the UK and I know this issue has played out slightly differently over there, and there's been a lot of feminists and voices on the left who've been very critical of the transgender policy agenda. And a lot of them are saying, you know, they don't particularly like Trump, but they're saying, you know, you gotta hand it to him, like, where was our side when we needed them? It's really been him that's delivered this and protected women and unexpectedly, perhaps, or ironically, even. But you're right. I mean, it's kind of. The results do speak for themselves. And it's hard to imagine how that executive order could have been written more strongly or more clearly. Yeah, it just completely made it, you know, that, look, we're going to talk about sex. That's what our policies and our laws should be rooted in. We're not even gonna Waste ink on this gender identity stuff. It's just not relevant. It's not relevant to what we're dealing with. We're dealing with women's sex based rights, women's sex based protections, and we are gonna uphold that. And I think it was, like I say, a big morale boost for a lot of women, not just in the United States, but everywhere.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes, you could see we talked about how it was Mae Mailman of the Independent Women's Forum who drafted that with the help of a lot of others. And you know, even before May got to it, it's just there's so many women and others, you know, I'm thinking about, like Billboard Chris, who have spent large portions of their past 10 years fighting against this insanity. And even, you know, I think about Kelly J. Keene, who's got, you know, all the merch, like woman, adult, human, female, which is exactly the definition used by Trump's eo. Like everyone just had a hand in it. You know, you can see, I can see the fingerprints of so many women fighters in this eo which is going to change women's lives for the better eventually. I have no doubt we'll get to the children. He didn't start with that, which is, you know, the procedures for the children. But the polls are showing that the American populace, including Democrats, are against puberty blockers for children too. So we're winning, we're winning on all of this. And if we can win with prisoners, who, again, with all due respect to Rhonda, are not the most popular crowd. You know, as you say, it's the, it's a smaller crowd and it's not the most popular crowd, cuz they're lawbreakers, then we can definitely eventually win with kids. I'll give you a last word on it, Maddie.

[Maddie Kearns]

Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. I've been reporting on this since 2018 and it's actually amazing just how far it's come in terms of public awareness, in terms of people just having the confidence to say, actually, heck, I'm gonna use sex based language. I mean, I know you had this moment yourself, Megan, where you just thought, you know what, game's over, I played nice, it didn't work out. I'm just gonna say what I think, and I think that has been so powerful and so many people now are and feel free to speak the truth. And that in itself just changes a lot of minds.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, it's true. Women's liberation. Maddie Kearns, a pleasure to see you. I hope you come back on soon.

[Maddie Kearns]

Thanks so much Megan.

[Megyn Kelly]

All right, all the best. And we are back next with Ruthless. Don't miss the fellas. See you then. Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly Show. No bs, no agenda and no fear. Increased tariffs on our trade partners, tax cuts and regulation changes. There's a reason why Gold is a diversification tactic now more than ever. Birchgold is releasing their Ultimate Guide for Gold in the Trump Era with a foreword by Donald Trump Jr. To get your free copy along with Birch Gold's free information kit on gold. Text MK to the number 989-898 here are the facts. The national debt continues to increase. Our interest payments on the national debt continue to increase. So gold is an important option and it can be your hedge against a weakened dollar. Birch Gold can convert an existing IRA or 401k into a tax sheltered IRA in gold. Text MK to 989-898 for your free copy of the Ultimate Guide for Gold in the Trump Era. There's no obligation, just information with an A plus rating from the Better Business Bureau, countless five star reviews and thousands of happy customers. Find out more about Birch Gold. There is a reason so many people love these guys and take all or just a small part of their existing IRAs and move them over into gold with birch. Text MK to the number 989-898 today.

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[Maddie Kearns]

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