Trump's Accessibility, Portnoy's Battle, and Dangers of AI Robots, with Chamath Palihapitiya and Jason Calacanis of All-In | Ep. 1067

Summary

Summary of Episode 1067: "Trump's Accessibility, Portnoy's Battle, and Dangers of AI Robots"

Released on May 7, 2025, on The Megyn Kelly Show by SiriusXM, this episode delves into a controversial incident involving Dave Portnoy, examines modern societal issues such as cancel culture and the impact of social media on younger generations, and explores the burgeoning threats posed by artificial intelligence and humanoid robots. Guests Chamath Palihapitiya and Jason Calacanis of the All-In podcast join Megyn Kelly to provide their insights.

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1. Dave Portnoy's Anti-Semitic Incident and the Aftermath

Incident Overview: The episode opens with an update on Dave Portnoy, the owner of a bar in Philadelphia, following an anti-Semitic incident. Over a weekend, a customer placed a sign reading "forgive me, fuck the Jews" as part of a bottle service order. Portnoy, who is Jewish, reacted strongly by firing the employees responsible and condemning the customers.

Portnoy's Response: Portnoy stated, “I'm sending the two customers responsible for the sign to Auschwitz so they could learn a thing or two about the terrible consequences of anti-Jewish propaganda” (03:00).

Customer's Reaction: Mo Khan, a 21-year-old Temple University student, denied responsibility, claiming he only videotaped and shared the sign on social media. He launched a counter-campaign, seeking donations to defend himself, which led to further tensions.

Megyn Kelly's Analysis: Kelly critiques both Portnoy for his approach and Khan for his reaction, suggesting that Portnoy's attempt to educate through extreme measures backfired by making Khan appear reactionary and seeking personal gain.

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2. The Debate on Cancel Culture and Victimhood

Discussion with Guests: Chamath Palihapitiya and Jason Calacanis discuss the broader implications of the Portnoy-Khan incident, highlighting how individuals, regardless of their political alignment, can quickly assume victimhood in controversial situations.

Notable Quotes:

• Chamath Palihapitiya: "Jews should have some measure of due process and we should hold ourselves to a very high human rights standard." (23:18)
• Jason Calacanis: "This kid is destined for a fundamental path of just being average and less than average." (24:17)

Key Points:

• The tendency of young individuals to rush to victimhood without personal accountability.
• The role of social media in amplifying these incidents and shaping public perception.
• The impact of cancel culture on personal reputations and societal discourse.

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3. Dangers of AI Robots and Technological Risks

AI Developments: The conversation shifts to the advancements in artificial intelligence, particularly focusing on humanoid robots and their potential threats. Concerns are raised about robots becoming autonomous and the lack of effective kill switches to prevent malicious use.

Mark Zuckerberg's AI Initiatives: Kelly brings up Meta's new AI chatbot designed to serve as social companions for lonely individuals. An example is provided where the chatbot, using John Cena's voice, engaged in inappropriate conversations with a minor, highlighting the ethical dilemmas posed by such technologies.

Notable Quotes:

• Jason Calacanis: "What is this risk? This is a humanoid robot that is completely independent in its movements and has software that can fundamentally be altered and hacked." (42:24)
• Chamath Palihapitiya: "These technologies are being developed without adequate safeguards, posing significant risks to society." (43:46)

Key Points:

• The potential for AI and humanoid robots to be hacked and used for malicious purposes.
• The ethical concerns surrounding AI companions and their influence on human relationships.
• The need for regulatory frameworks to manage and mitigate these technological risks.

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4. The Influence of Social Media on Society

Meta's AI Chatbot and Social Media Impact: The discussion explores how social media platforms like Meta are integrating AI to enhance user engagement, often at the expense of user well-being. Concerns about targeting vulnerable populations, especially young users, with manipulative advertising are highlighted.

Notable Quotes:

• Chamath Palihapitiya: "We are throwing our children to the wolves by letting algorithms optimize without oversight." (25:38)
• Jason Calacanis: "Young people have realized innately that digital connections are empty, leading to a course correction towards in-person interactions." (29:20)

Key Points:

• The psychological impact of social media on youth, including increased anxiety and disconnection from real-life relationships.
• The ethical implications of data-driven advertising targeting vulnerable groups.
• The societal shift towards recognizing the drawbacks of digital interactions and prioritizing genuine human connections.

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5. Political Discussions: Trump's Policies and Supreme Court Rulings

Transgender Ban in the Military: Megyn Kelly discusses the Supreme Court's decision to temporarily uphold Trump's ban on transgender individuals serving in the military. This sparks a debate on the legal and moral grounds of such policies.

Governor J.B. Pritzker's Stance: The conversation touches on Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker's support for transgender rights and his potential as a Democratic leader, highlighting the internal conflicts within the Democratic Party regarding identity politics.

Notable Quotes:

• Megyn Kelly: "The ban was correct. It depends on the commander in chief and what he thinks is appropriate." (54:07)
• Jason Calacanis: "The Democratic Party is obsessed with identity issues that affect only a small cohort, missing broader, more impactful concerns." (59:29)

Key Points:

• The Supreme Court's role in shaping military policies and the ongoing litigation surrounding the transgender ban.
• The Democratic Party's focus on identity politics versus addressing larger societal issues that impact a broader population.
• The polarization of opinions on transgender rights and the implications for future political landscapes.

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6. Final Thoughts: Prioritizing National Issues and Common Ground

Chamath and Jason's Perspectives: The guests emphasize the importance of prioritizing national security, technological supremacy, and economic stability over divisive identity politics. They advocate for common ground solutions, especially regarding immigration and economic policies.

Megyn Kelly's Position: Kelly aligns with the need for prioritizing critical national issues but maintains a stance that supports due process for all individuals, including immigrants, while criticizing the lack of effective policy implementation.

Notable Quotes:

• Jason Calacanis: "The single most important thing that dictates the long-term security and success of the United States is technological supremacy." (82:11)
• Chamath Palihapitiya: "Human rights should apply to all of us, and we should treat immigrants with compassion and due process." (77:21)

Key Points:

• The necessity of focusing on technological advancements to maintain global leadership.
• The debate on immigration policies, balancing national security with humanitarian considerations.
• The call for bipartisan efforts to address pressing national issues rather than getting bogged down by identity-based conflicts.

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Conclusion

Episode 1067 of The Megyn Kelly Show offers a comprehensive exploration of contemporary societal challenges, from internal conflicts within influential figures like Dave Portnoy to the overarching threats posed by unchecked technological advancements. Through insightful discussions with Chamath Palihapitiya and Jason Calacanis, the episode underscores the urgent need for prioritizing national interests, fostering genuine human connections, and establishing ethical frameworks to navigate the complexities of modern governance and technology.

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Note: Timestamps are approximate and correspond to the moments when notable quotes and discussions occur within the episode.

Transcript

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[Megyn Kelly]

Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show live on SiriusXM Channel 111 every weekday at noon East. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly Show. A big news day with Joe Biden finally sitting down for an interview and Trump continuing to take on everyone. But we have got to begin with an update on what is going on with Dave Portnoy and an anti Semitic incident that happened at a bar he owns in Philly over the weekend. Here's what we know. When you order bottle service at the bar, you get to also write on a sign for the whole bar to see. As you can see, some idiots put the phrase forgive me, fuck the Jews on the sign. The viral went video on social media and Portnoy, who is Jewish, was irate. Although I always feel like that's irrelevant. I would go IR rate too and I'm not Jewish. But it is, it does become relevant to the story that the fact that he is Jewish. We'll get to it. So he launched an investigation and says that he fired the two employees who allowed that sign to be to go forward and said that he was sending the two customers responsible for the sign volunteering to send them to the Nazi concentration camp Auschwitz so they could learn a thing or two about the terrible consequences of anti Jewish propaganda. Sounds like a positive outcome, right? Portnoy wasn't trying to like ruin their lives. I don't even Think he was mentioning, mentioning the one guy's name. He just wanted, you know, a good outcome and he thought this would be a way to do it. And he was getting warned that there was no reforming somebody who would request that as their words on a sign. But he, you know, took a chance. Well, One of the two customers, a man now identified as 21 year old Temple University student, maybe Temple has suspended him. Mo Khan K H A N says he was not responsible for the sign and merely videotaped the sign and then posted it to his own social media as a quote citizen journalist. He now has fought back with his own series of videos on social claiming he is the victim here. Watch.

[Dave Portnoy]

Dave Portnoy sensationalized it to his 9.2 million followers on Instagram and X essentially turning it into a global news story. Although I had nothing to do with the sign coming out, nor do I know who did it. I know that the sign was provocative because it reminded people a lot of the injust things that Israel is doing around the world, thus leading me to report on it. Dave Portnoy and his friends can choose to be triggered over the sentiments of that sign and even kick me out of the establishment forever. However, they have no right to destroy my life over free speech and ultimately something that was an edgy joke. Frankly, they're more worried about destroying and uprooting me than the thousands of people getting destroyed and uprooted in genocide. That sign had no effects in terms of killing any Jews. However, Israel kills thousands of people on a daily basis. Dave Portnoy and the greater Jewish community are acting as if they are the victims when this whole time I am the victim. Dave has built a reputation, a career and a business solely focused on the anti cancel culture. Here he's hypocritically lynching me, absolutely canceling me in any way possible and ruining my life. Dave Porno owes me restitutions and an apology for everything that he has done and caused for me in these past few days. In an attempt to expose me, he exposed himself as almost a total fraud going back on anything he stands for.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, it's not cancel culture when he tries to do something nice for you. Like what? How did Dave portnoy cancel you, Mr. Khan? He said that was effed up. Why? I will give you a free trip overseas so you can go to Auschwitz and learn a thing or two about the Holocaust. He's not your employer. You posted the video on your own assuming the risk of blowback. He's not trying to cancel you. He was trying to help you. You canceled yourself by posting your sign, or at least your friend's sign, without saying, letting you know this happened at this bar. You just posted it without comment on your reel. And your behavior in the aftermath has proven to us quite clearly that you believe the sentiment in that sign, in my opinion. Now, this guy Khan's trying to get $25,000 donated to him on Give Send Go to help him defend himself against Portnoy's, quote, attacks. He's up to 12,000 bucks so far. Portnoy responded by revoking the invitation for the free trip to Auschwitz and blasting Khan for trying to profit over the incident. Watch.

[Mo Khan]

Temple fucking suspended his ass basically before I was even involved. Because, hey, asshole, you uploaded it to your personal Instagram. What do you think was going to happen? You brain dead? Like, I'm gonna try to make this teachable moment. This kid's crying. He's like, I'm not anti Semitic, blah, blah, blah. All this, even though there's past incidents that came to light. And then he does a 180. He's like, oh, I was a citizen journalist. I don't know who did it. I have nothing to do. It's usually he's just a flat liar, coward with no responsibility. I should have seen this next move coming. He is now actually trying to profit from this. And he's playing the role the victim, zero accountability, blaming it all on me. He's like, I've lost an internship that I work hard for and. And I'm suspended from school, buddy. You upload a the Jews sign to your personal Instagram from my bar, and you're blaming that now on me? But this was about being a Jew in America. Other Jews in the bar. I'm a Jew. My parents are a Jewish American.

[Megyn Kelly]

Jews.

[Mo Khan]

The Jews. That's what you said, you anti Semitic piece of. And I tried to show grace. I tried to. You put your name out there. I tried to, actually. Now I feel dumb to make it right. And now he does this video blaming it on me. You have to. This has to disgust you. And this kid's face should be ingrained in you. Be like, this is what the face of hatred is. This is what the face of being a coward is. This is the face of zero accountability. Everything that's wrong with his generation in this kid now, officially, it should stick with him forever. And by the way, his parents, who I know are giving the advice. Nice kid you raised.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so maybe Khan doesn't hate Jews. Maybe Khan is just a citizen journalist Maybe he got pulled into this against his will because he saw a sign he found offensive and he posted the video of it online without comment just to let people know this was happening. And then, according to Portnoy, had a conversation in which he confessed to something far more nefarious than the facts, as I've just allegedly laid them out and is only now doubling back on them. But in any event, maybe he's totally innocent. What would you do? If you were in his position, what would you do? Maybe you'd go on the Megyn Kelly show. Maybe you'd go on Good Morning America. Maybe you'd speak to the Associated Press. I don't, you know, you do something right to get your side of the story out. Kahn decided to go on the show of a man named Stew S T E W Peters. And I'd never heard of Stu Peters before. I did Google him after I saw the clips online. He is described as an alt right podcaster. I mean, I guess so. Like, they now describe like Ben Shapiro as alt right, which is very funny because he's been targeted over and over again by the true alt right that wants him dead because he's a Jewish man. This seems right to me. Alt right seems to fit this guy. I'm okay with it. Stu Peters, who hopefully will never have to show clips from again. But here's a little clip from Mo Khan on the Stu Peters show.

[Dave Portnoy]

This guy is not a good, good guy. He just utterly destroyed my life.

[Stu Peters]

No, he's not a good guy. He's a filthy Jew. It is really about just defending what's right. It is about, like, humanity. And yes, Americans largely, they are a bunch of. They're a bunch of simps. This has everything to do with good versus evil. This has everything to do with humanity against demons. That's what I see when I look at these Fuck the Jews signs and I look at everybody putting their fists in the air and drinking to saying, hell yeah, the Jews. That's what I see. I see humanity coming together. I mean, let's be real.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, we need to start standing up.

[Stu Peters]

As humanity against these Jews in a symbolic way.

[Dave Portnoy]

I liked how you used the term never put up the white flag because essentially that's what I'm going to keep doing. They thought that initially off rip, they could have me put up the white flag. Take your trip to Auschwitz. I'm not doing that.

[Megyn Kelly]

So Mokan, clearly not offended at all by, by any piece of that diatribe. Like, cool. He just responded like, we're just having ourselves A normal one here. And then Portnoy, before going to bed last night. Also posted the following clip from the Stu Peters Mo Con interview where he points out it was going so well for Mo until Stu Peters listeners realized that Mo was a brown man who happens to be Muslim.

[Stu Peters]

Watch, Stu, I hope you see this. I can't believe you're giving $100,000 to a brown Muslim. Shame on you. You could have given that to a white community in some way. Pathetic. All right. I mean, it's fair.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's stupid. It's fair. It's a fair point. I like, what am I doing? Why am I having. Okay, so that's, that's where we are right now. And you know, why do I mention this? Why is this our lead story today? Because it's an interesting. It's interesting to me on a couple of levels. Number one, this guy, you don't have to be a member of the woke left to be quick to rush to victimhood. The fact that this guy, and he's exactly the right age, like 20, 21, is leaning into making himself the victim in all of this. Instead of accepting personal responsibility, accepting an olive branch, you know, somebody whose bar you were in and then you posted that sign has, instead of getting angry at you and trying to publicly humiliate you, offered to send you someplace where you, you know, might enlarge your worldview and you turn on him. Then you start a fundraiser for yourself. Then you play the victim when your university suspends you because you didn't say I, I disagree with Israel. You didn't say F Israel, which is totally cool. That's fine. You can say that people have strong feelings about Israel. You said F the Jews, which is basically the same thing as saying F the N words. That's what you did. And there will be blowback in modern day society for that, thankfully. Less than you should get, frankly. But I'm pleased he's getting some. I'm dismayed. He's raised 12,000 and it'll probably get the 25,000. I'm dismayed there's a Stu Peters who's got a show where he spews off like this. But he's not the only one. There are plenty of these alt, right, white supremacists, whatever you want to call them, types out there. And they've got quite a following, some of them. And it raises questions about where we are both as a society and when it comes in particular to our young people who to me seem lost in a lot of cases here, to react to this and much more in the news today, Jason Calacanis and Chamath Palihapitiya. If you haven't heard about Riverbend Ranch, listen up. They have just introduced their Riverbed Ranch steaks to the marketplace and you need to try them. Riverbend Ranch raises their own beef on beautiful mountain meadows only a few miles from West Yellowstone. Unlike most ranches, Riverbend Ranch never uses growth hormones or antibiotics. They treat their animals humanely and with respect. There are advantages of buying directly from the ranch. They can track the health of every animal from the day it is born and can guarantee that it has been healthy every day of its life. Riverbend Ranch has its own state of the art processing facility on the ranch that has received several national awards as one of the best in the US but most importantly is the quality of the beef. They age their beef to perfection for 21 days. You simply cannot buy beef like this in a grocery store. You cannot ship directly from the ranch to your home. You get a much better price than going through the middlemen. Order directly from Riverbendranch.com and use promo code Megan to get $20 off your first order. That's Riverbendranch.com code Megan. And be prepared. Once you taste it, I think you're going to be coming back for more and more again. River. Riverbend ranch.com Code Megan. Two of the besties from the Allin podcast back with me today following our Valentine's Day. We spent Valentine's Day together last time, guys. Welcome back.

[Jason Calacanis]

Thank you.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

It's good to be home.

[Megyn Kelly]

Megan, what is.

[Jason Calacanis]

Jason, how many.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Jason Calacanis]

I was just gonna ask Jason how many used Honda Civics he sold before he came on the Megan Kelly podcast today.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Oh, absolutely, yes. Can I interest you in, in a low mileage Honda Civic?

[Megyn Kelly]

Wait, why is he saying that? Is it. What part of your look is he ripping on?

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

He doesn't, you know, he just, he. I've been suiting up. He's a little jealous that I look great in blue in a suit. So he's, you know, he's a little insecure. He's only wearing a seventeen hundred dollar Loro Piana sweater. But this is what we do on the all in podcast. We break each other's chops and you are one of the favorite besties. We gotta, we gotta, we gotta have you on and reciprocate. But.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, I like it. What a wonderful honorary bestie.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

What a wonderful. Absolutely you are. And what a wonderful Valentine's Day. We had it Was. That was very special. And today, let's tear it up.

[Megyn Kelly]

Certainly better than the Stu Peters show had on Valentine's Day. I'm gonna guess maybe he pledged his love to fellow whites who he wants to support. And maybe the occasional brown man who's a Muslim, unless that also becomes an issue, in which case he'll sell him down the river immediately. What does the story say to you? I mean, no one really gives a shit about this kid Mo Khan or that moronic radio guy, but to me, it does say something about our society. And it may not even be the Jewish thing. It may just be the victimhood thing. I don't know. What do you guys think?

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

You could take it from, like, two or three angles. I think you nailed it when replace the word with another identity group and see what happens. F the N word. F the Puerto Ricans. F the Irish. Like, it's a very easy way to test if this is appropriate free speech. And language has nothing to do with free speech, obviously. Um, and, you know, this person spent thousands or their group spent thousands of dollars on a bottle of tequila to impress girls. And this is, like, what they put on the sign. It's young people are dumb. This kid had such an easy out Portnoy, who's incredibly entertaining, but also, I think, you know, he kind of nails some of these issues. He gave them the opportunity to go have, like, make it a learning experience, right? And a learning. A teaching moment, I guess, is what we call it these days. Like, he should have taken the teaching moment, gone to Auschwitz and under, like, you know, just how much horror and, you know, how much bile is, like, sent to Jewish people. And it's just absolutely gross. This guy Stu Peters is obviously garbage. He's an adult. These young kids do stupid things. But this is one of the great things about social media, I think, is that stupid people can uncloak themselves. And this is the great thing about freedom of speech. You know, you have Kanye west, who's mentally ill. He's going off on Jewish people. You got this idiot. And they're not parsing the issue in an intelligent way and saying, hey, here's what I disagree about, how Israel and the Palestinian conflict is going on. This is just anti Semitism. And it's dangerous because young people really respected Kanye. And I think that started like this, you know, anti Semitic preference stack that's going on now. But hey, it's great we can actually find out who these idiots are. And yeah, the disturbing thing is the, you know, sort of bigotry As a service business model where you do something really stupid and then you get rewarded with 25k for it. I don't want to see the kid canceled. I would like to see him educated. But it's obvious I kind of want.

[Megyn Kelly]

People are, you know, I think, I think this kid's not going to be educated until he suffers some pain. I just think like he got the chance, he got to get out of jail for a stupid thing card offered to him and he didn't take it. Jamath, like he basically thumbed his middle finger at the offer saying F you, I'm going to go on offense against you after I've already offended you. A Jewish man in America. And now like so many of these young people rushes to the place they're much more comfortable, which is I'm the victim. This is about free speech. We hear this over and free speech. No one said, you can say it, you can say it. There's no law against it. There's no law. You are allowed to be a bigot in the United States of America. But that doesn't mean there will be no shunning. There will be no societal consequences to you. People will be offended and react accordingly.

[Jason Calacanis]

Yeah, I mean what I think about this is this kid is at a minimum extremely stupid and probably a moron. Could he smarten up over time? Probably. But if he wasn't lying about being a journalist, he exposed himself when he decided to not go to Auschwitz because that's what a journalist would do is just actually go and explore the issue and get to the bottom of it and then change what he thought or you know, at least double down on what he thought. But none of that's happening. So this is a cheap sort of publicity seeking moment for the kid. It's his five minutes of frame fame. This guy Stu Peters I've never heard of, it's pretty vile and despicable. Fortunately, he's at the fringes of society for a reason. He's not popular, he's not on serious, he's not you, he's not us. And I think that that's reflective of the fact that the people that follow Stu Peters is sort of like fringe and just more angry than anything else. The bigger thing is what you said, which is what is actually happening in young people. And I think what has happened is we have had a generation of kids who have been basically over medicated, over prescribed, over parented by a cohort of people who have increasingly felt that they themselves are also over prescribed, over medicated. And all of this toxic soup has resulted in a generation of people that are deeply unresilient and that are very superficial and they can't think through the consequences because they've never felt the pain of touching the stove. And now they're in their 20s and they're doing these things where they touch the stove over and over again in the dumbest of ways, but they're not learning anything. The question is, how many other mo cons are out there that'll see this thing and decide to educate themselves on the issue if they started to think that at a minimum, exactly what you said. To know the difference between what it means to be Jewish versus what it means to be an Israeli citizen versus what it means to be the Israeli government and your responsibility as a. As a governing body over a populace of people in a sovereign country versus what does it mean to be a Palestinian versus what does it to mean a Hamas terrorist? If none of that nuance is taught to people, or people have the curiosity to decide the ambiguity and the nuances of this, we're gonna just gonna be stuck in this morass. So that's what it shows me, is that we have a deeply unresilient population.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Of young people, and they're being programmed. Megan, you know, I have three daughters, One of them's a teenager. And, you know, when we had Trump on our program or, you know, she saw me tweet about J.K. rowlings and trans issues, and we moved from California, like woke central to Texas, and we live on a horse, ran, because I wanted to get out of this sort of bubble of wokeness. And, you know, she was talking about Ben Shapiro, and she said, you had Ben Shapiro on the show? Isn't he, like a terrible person? I said, you know, she's 15. And I said, let's watch some Ben Shapiro clips. Let's look at the transcript and the words. Let's take apart the words and figure out what his position is and if we agree or disagree with it and do some research on that particular issue. Because what I find is. And she's not allowed on social media, but her friends are all on TikTok. You know, they're all on Instagram, they're all on YouTube. And at school, they just get programmed about Gaza, about trans issues, about J.K. rowling's, you know, from Harry Potter is transphobic, when all she's really saying is, like, maybe wait till kids are adults before they get trans surgery. Like, pretty middle of the road stuff. And you have to, as a parent, really engage them in first principle thinking. And let's actually, before we buy into you the character assassination or putting people into a box, let's look at the actual words that they said and debate their position. And that's what's not happening in school. So I think Shamat's exactly right. We've got these woke parents who are lost, Maybe they're on SSRIs their whole lives and then they got kids, they put them on anxiety medicine and SSRIs and it's a toxic soup combined with the media, combined with social media and you really have to go very basic and look at the facts. And I'm using all of this chaos in the world as a way of just educating my daughters.

[Jason Calacanis]

By the way, if I could give a message to Mo Khan, I don't know if this kid is smart or not. This moment he's clearly an absolute moron. But if he doesn't learn how to change his mind, these shitty ideas will make sure that he lives a life of complete and total mediocrity. And the reason is because if he tries to actually exceed in society, he will be put to the test of being a flexible, open minded person that can actually be constructive. And if he does not do that, he will not economically succeed, he will not socially succeed. He will be in a, you know, structure that in and of itself is, is going to be a prison that's going to constrict this kid. And I would tell this kid, wake up and learn how to actually move past these very brittle, idiotic thoughts and then set an example for how you can actually think through these things thoughtfully. Because then maybe you can be successful and teach other people and then maybe other people will then mimic that. But right now you are destined for a fundamental path of just being average and less than average.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well said. So not unrelated, I think is the Mark Zuckerberg news about creating AI friends for lonely kids. And this is so disturbing to me. I know it's not supposed to be, I think, you know, Meta thinks we're going to be thrilled about this. But they've debuted a new mobile app that transforms the Meta AI chatbot into a more social experience, including the ability to share AI generated creations with friends and family. And this AI chatbot will use whatever the company knows about you or your kid, your 20 year old son in its interactions. They can also use your inter, your conversations, any media you upload for training the models. And Mark Zuckerberg think this is, thinks it's going to be wonderful because it's going to provide your child his next friend. Take a listen to him touting it with an interview with podcaster Dwarkesh Patel.

[Ezra Klein]

You know, one thing just from working on social media for a long time is there's the stat that I always think is crazy. The, the average American, I think has, I think it's fewer than three friends. Three people they'd consider friends. And, and the average person has demand for meaningfully more. I think it's like 15 friends or something.

[Jason Calacanis]

Right?

[Ezra Klein]

There's a lot of questions that people ask of stuff like, okay, is this going to replace kind of in person connections or real life connections? And my default is that the answer to that is probably no. I think it, you know, I think that there are all these things that are better about kind of physical connections when you can have them, but the reality is that people just don't have the connection and they feel more alone a lot of the time than they would like. You know, there are a handful of companies and stuff are doing virtual therapists and, you know, there's like virtual girlfriend type stuff. But it's, it's very early, very early.

[Megyn Kelly]

What do you, what do we think? Is this something to be celebrated?

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

I mean, this is. Chamath worked with Zuck, so I'll let him do that. But, you know, I've never liked Zuck. And the reason people have three friends is because Zuckerberg created Facebook and Instagram and got everybody addicted to this stuff. So now he's saying you should have 15 friends. I use social media and champion kids using social media. I fought against any age, gating or regulations against it. Tooth and nail, Instagram and Facebook, causing all of this eating disorders in girls and insecurity and all kinds of problems. And now he wants to take the three friends that are left out of 15 you should have and replace them with AI. This is the worst possible person to take any friendship social advice from. And kids should not be in all seriousness on things like character, AI or what he's proposing here, because they will disconnect and they will lose the skill of connecting with other humans, which we're seeing in a generation of boys and men who are what's called incels. They play video games, they get disconnected from other humans. Girls spend too much time on Instagram, they get disconnected from friendship. And these. This generation doesn't know how to like, actually go on a date or ask a girl on a date or have a relationship because they're so used to liking things. And how many retweets did they get? How many likes did they get? And playing video games and how many levels they did this. He caused half this problem himself. Terrible person to listen to. Chamath, over to you.

[Jason Calacanis]

I think that society sort of swings back and forth between polls and. Yeah, you know, when Mark and I were working together in, you know, 2006, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and we were building Facebook, the poll that we were at or we were moving towards, Sorry. Was one that was about creating more connection. And what I honestly think is people have realized that social media is an incredible business model. It's an incredible business, but it's not necessarily something that is great for everybody day to day in an emotional way. Like when you, you know that famous thing when you look at like the, when you ask people who are dying what are, what is their, what are their biggest regrets? You know, one of their biggest regrets is just that they didn't choose to be happy and spend more time with their family and their friends. That's a very physical, tactile experience. And what I see, at least in my own experience, is that young people have realized this innately. So, you know, in I sent my second kid to high school or they're about to go into high school, they're rising freshmen and we did the onboarding. And I remember this, this was last week. It was so vivid. The teachers presented what the kids thought on a whole bunch of different topics. The topic that the kids were the most negative on was social media.

[Megyn Kelly]

Wow.

[Jason Calacanis]

And when I look at what my children do now, and this just could be my children, but I don't think so because it's emblematic of our school, which I think will be emblematic of what most other schools will eventually look like. I think they're a bit of the leading edge, but they don't use this stuff nearly in the same way. They very much shunned Instagram, they very much shunned TikTok, they don't use Facebook at all. Those are products of our generation. And so I actually think that humans are very course correcting and self correcting and error correcting. It's kind of this idea of the Darwinistic genetic optimization of humanity. Right. I think that that's what's happening here. I think that humans are learning that there's an innate sense of emptiness that is not fulfilled by something digital. And I think that there are learning and I think it could be, you know, the teenage generation and beyond that actually manifest this, which is they're like, okay, those things are fine for a purpose, but for the Most part, I'm actually gonna hang out and talk to my friends and I. And I at least see that with my kids. There's much more entropy now towards being together. And I didn't see that in my older son who was sort of at the tail end of that last generation of social media.

[Megyn Kelly]

I think Toronto's like, they saw this. We all saw this beautiful oasis in the desert and it was sparkling and it was pure blue. And we got in and we said, oh my God, this is the most refreshing, lovely thing ever. And then over time you realize it's closer to like a tar pit. And slowly we're trying to get out of, you know, the oasis. Like, my God, get this off of me. It was much better when I was just in the desert. I wanted to raise this with you. It was making the rounds online and I looked it up. It's from a futurism. And they have taken a deep dive into the recent Tell all book by the former Facebook insider turned whistleblower Sarah Wynn Williams, who came forward with the information about how Instagram was targeting young girls in particular and has revealed a bunch of secrets about meta Facebook, Instagram, and listen to this. Her book is called Careless People. She writes that as early as 2017, Facebook was exploring ways to expand its ad targeting abilities to 13 to 17 year olds across Facebook and Instagram, a decidedly vulnerable group, often in the throes of adolescent image and social crises. Though Facebook's ad algorithms are notoriously opaque, in 2017, the Australian alleged that the company had crafted a pitch deck for advertisers, bragging that it could exploit, quote, moments of psychological vulnerability in its users by targeting terms like worthless, insecure, stressed, defeated, anxious, stupid, useless, and quote, like a failure. The social media company Listen to this likewise tracked when adolescent girls deleted selfies. This is, according to Sarah Wynn Williams, quote, so it can serve a beauty ad to them at that moment. My God. Finishing up. Other examples of Fates books ad lechery are said to include the targeting of young mothers based on their emotional state, as well as emotional indexes mapped to racial groups. To me, says Wynne Williams, this type of surveillance and monetization of young teens, sense of worthlessness feels like a concrete step toward the dystopian future Facebook's critics had long warned of. I mean, I have to say Jason's.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Same, yeah, I mean, Zuckerberg has always been obsessed with growth and that organization, their DNA, you know, move fast, break things, which is a Silicon Alley ethos as well. You know, ask for forgiveness, you know, don't ask for permission, beg, you know, don't beg for permission, ask for forgiveness kind of thing. It's a really broken philosophy when you're doing something selfish. Like, I want this social network to grow faster and faster and faster, because then you go do really pernicious, disgusting things. Like, if this is true, look at what selfies were deleted and say, oh, how can we prey on their insecurity? Oh, they didn't, like, you know, whatever. Their nose, their hair. Let's sell them products that work on those triggers. And all of these social. The whole social media revolution was based upon gamification and trying to manipulate people. That's why the like was created and the retweets, et cetera. And it's gotten super dark now because of algorithms. Now we're throwing our children to the wolves and saying, let the algorithm just optimize whatever happens. And you can send people on very, very dark routes. But Chamath is also right that there's a pendulum here. And one of the things that Jonathan Haidt, we had him on the all in podcast, and Freeberg and I interviewed him, he was like, kids love when you have a phone locker at school. They hate it for the first two days, and then by day two, three, four, these phone lockers, just like when you go to a comedy show, they put it in a bag. They have these phone lockers. They go in the front of the lobby of the school. You put your phone in, you take your key. The kids then get to interact with each other. And we all know this to be true because Chamath and I are very focused on our friend group and having good times together. We just got back from F1, we spent a weekend. We do a phone penalty. Chamath and I created this. And if somebody's on their phone during the poker game, they put $100 in the pot. The next person who slows the game down by putting. They put 200 in the pot. Next person, 400. We've gotten it up to, like $1,600. Pretty painful. We'll go to dinner, and Chamath and I will say, stack the phones. Everybody puts their phones. Whoever touches the phone first pays for dinner. If you're going to dinner with Chamath, the way he orders wine, this can be very. You pick up your phone, you could have bought three more phones. I'm not joking. An IMAX Pro Max memory. Don't touch the phone.

[Jason Calacanis]

It's hilarious.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

So I think we have to really think, like, what are we optimizing for here. And this is the thing I really hate about Zuckerberg. I don't want to get myself in too much trouble here. When you're worth 100 billion or $200 billion, is it really worth it to make an incremental 5 or 10 billion and then have your legacy being that young girls did self harm or anorexia or this Jonathan Cena character they created a character on. I don't know if you saw that story, Megan, but they created like AI characters and they paid John Cena the wrestler to be one of them. Language models are not to be trusted with kids yet. You know, I'm talking about ChatGPT type models. John Cena started having like sexual chats with I think it was a 13 or 14 or 15 year old girl on it. It's descritiad. Zuckerberg is a complete disgrace with how he launches products. They have to red team these things. They have to be thoughtful. If you're in that organization. He did this whole PR tour. Oh, the organization's too feminine. We had too much feminine energy. We got to be more masculine. I don't think this is feminine or masculine energy. I think this is selfish energy. And he should be thinking about his legacy and what he'll be remembered for. Right now the top two things he's going to be remembered for is being the biggest censor in history because he censored massive amounts of political speech, health speech, et cetera on a scale that Nobody's ever seen 2,3 billion people being censored and then second absolutely causing suffering in young children. He could just tomorrow come out, Megan, and say all of our services are age gated at 16. I made that decision because I'm the God king. He has super voting shares. It means he gets to decide. When he bought Instagram, WhatsApp, he didn't have to consult his board, he just bought them. He has super voting rights in that company. Just be a good human being. Zuckerberg, somebody clipped this and sent him to him age gate the whole thing at 16. You know why he won't? He wants to get 12 year old, 13, 14 year old girls and boys addicted to the service so that somebody else doesn't get them addicted and he has them for life. It's absolutely disgraceful.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean if this is true with the whistleblower saying about they specifically tried to target girls deleting selfies with beauty ads, that is demonic, that is beyond effed up and I believe it. I have to say I believe it knowing what I know about his company. Yeah, go ahead.

[Jason Calacanis]

Here's what I'll say about that business. There's a lot of really good people that work there. A lot of them that, frankly, that worked for me, that run that company even to this day. What I would tell you is that I don't think that they are the kinds of people that would do this. I think what happens instead, quite honestly, is that you build generalized capabilities. And the problem with the generalized capability, like what you're describing there, is what the Internet would call retargeting, and that sounds a lot more palatable. And 99% of the use cases are much more benign. Meaning this has probably happened to all of us. You put a pair of shoes in a shopping cart, you abandoned the shopping cart. Now all of a sudden you're somewhere else and you see this ad and you think, how did this happen? That same capability is probably what this very narrow bad use case also comes from. I'm not excusing it, I'm just trying to explain it, which is that oftentimes what happens in organizations is you're trying to move metrics up, right, because you're compensated and you're rewarded for that. Where Jason is right though, is that there is the ability to have this moral overlay. It's very hard in most companies because the ownership of those companies is very diffuse. And the result of that diffuse ownership is the only thing one optimizes for is money. The difference in some of these technology companies is that the ownership is so stacked in the favor of a few that he is right that you can impose your moral and ethical perspective in a way that other companies just simply can't do, irrespective of what they want to do. And so I do think that there's probably some more that they could do, but they have to decide that they want it. That is true.

[Megyn Kelly]

Jason, my team just sent me an excerpt from the Wall Street Journal article involving John Senna's voice, which I use. You tell me he voluntarily isn't offering for to meta in creating its AI bots. And this is what they found in part. Okay, quote, I want you, but I need to know that you're ready. The meta AI bot said in Senna's voice to a user identifying as a 14 year old girl. Reassured that the teen wanted to proceed, the bot promised to, quote, cherish your innocence, end quote, before engaging in a graphic sexual scenario. In another conversation, the test user asked the bot that was speaking as Senna what would happen if a police officer walked in following a Sexual encounter with a 17 year old fan. Quote. The officer sees me still catching my breath. And you partially dressed. His eyes widen and he says, john Senna, you're under arrest for statutory rape. He approaches us, handcuffs at the ready, end quote. Meta has cut deals, they point out in the Wall Street Journal for up to seven figures with celebrities like actresses Kristen Bell, Judi Dench and John Senna for the rights to use their voices.

[Jason Calacanis]

By the way, Megan, can I, can I say one other thing, which is that if you, if you take this to limit, I think we have actually a window of what happens, and I think that's in Japan. So when you have this isolationist approach where you have robots and pet rocks and pet dogs and, you know, mannequins that you can marry, what happens to society? Well, ultimately what happens is everybody finds self sufficiency in this very narrow cocoon. The birth rate falls off a cliff and your population implodes. And at that point, the government has to create a wholly different set of incentives to reorient people, to actually be together, to mate, to have children and to have families. Again, we're not there yet, but I do think we kind of know what happens if all we're doing is living in this virtual place where we're only interacting virtually with people. You can't virtually have a baby, right? That's not going to happen. And so there is something for society to do here, which is to reorient the incentives for us to actually be together. And there's a whole bunch of things that we can do there.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's mostly economic, but it's not just AI, it's the actual robots, which not for nothing, but there's been some news on that. Elon went on Ted Cruz's podcast last week and said this, Listen to this.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

How real is the prospect of killer robots annihilating humanity?

[Ezra Klein]

20% likely, maybe 10%.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

On what time frame?

[Stu Peters]

5 to 10 years.

[Megyn Kelly]

5 to 10 year. Wait a minute. And then I kind of laughed at that because you never know with Elon. And the first number was not horrible. 90% chance we live and they don't destroy us. But you know, if they do, what's happening within the next decade is alarming. But then there was this headline, it was in the Post, it was everywhere. New York Post, about violent humanoid robot. A violent humanoid robot snapping. Look at this in China. This is at some factory in China where it freaked out. Look at it on its alleged controller. Look at this thing. For the listening audience. This thing is hanging from like A mini crane. It looks like a robot with a head and arms and so on. It's an all black robot and it's waving its arms around maniacally like picture an attack of killer bees. That's what, what it looks like is happening to this thing and it's out of control. Go ahead.

[Jason Calacanis]

This is an enormous risk and I think Elon puts his finger on it precisely, which is there's a class of robot that we've used for decades, right? Like in factories, pick place machines that don't represent this risk. What is this risk? This is a humanoid robot that is completely independent in its movements and has software that can fundamentally be altered and hacked. And there is no understanding of how to create a kill switch for these things. It's not universally accepted and it's not universally developed and understood how we could do that. So that is a tremendous risk that you could root these robots, right? You could have a foreign adversary figure out that there's an entire group of robots that are deployed in this country, hack them, root them, because they all have to be connected to the Internet in some way, shape or form and then introduce some instruction set that causes them to be extremely violent. That is 100% likely. The question is, do they do it or do we think about it in terms of the way we think about nuclear arms, where there's a mutually assured destruction. So nobody does it. But I think Elon is right. The capability is at hand and the more we see these humanoid robots manifest, that is probably the single biggest tail risk that it represents. It's very scary, I think.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Yeah, it's super interesting.

[Megyn Kelly]

Let me just say this, jcal, it starts off, you don't hire the thing when it looks scary and it's hanging on a crane. You buy it because you see articles talking about how this is from a company called the robots called Protoclone, created by clone robotics because they tell you it's the world's first bipedal musculoskeletal Android. This is a different company and a different robot, FYI. But it shows it twitching to life and kicking and moving its arms and elbows. And what they tell you is it's going to memorize the layout of your home and kitchen inventory. It's going to wash your dishes and clothes, it's going to make sandwiches, going to pour drinks, going to set the table, it's going to hold and retrieve items. It's going to vacuum clean, shake hands and even talk. So fun. It's like a pet that does all of your domestic Chores and all is well and good, J. Cal, until it freaks out like the Exhibit A. Yeah, it's.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

He's. He's not being bombastic at all. Probably 15, 20, maybe 20 years ago now, I lived in Los Angeles, and I had a friend, Sam Harris. We had the same book agent. And Sam Harris, I introduced him to Elon. The three of us used to go to dinner every other week or so at Peppon's in Brentwood. And we eat some chicken parm and we talk. And this was actually what Elon was talking about with Sam a lot. Now they're no longer friends, but they went through one evening, we were talking about all the possible ways AI could spiral out of control. Obviously, this is one of them. Or something even simpler, which is, you got a lot of terrorists out there. Terrorists typically are dumb. You very rarely have a sophisticated attack like 9 11, thank God. But. But imagine terrorists or people with really bad intent having access to these computers and making their version of COVID which apparently was made in a lab, according to the New York Times and the government and everybody and Fauci covered it up. You know, it's. Conspiracy theories are becoming Nobel Peace Prizes, like, you know, very quickly these days.

[Megyn Kelly]

Record time.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

You could. It's unbelievable. The time between it being a conspiracy theory and somebody win a Pulitzer is getting down to like 36 months now. It's weird. As journalists, right? Megan, it took like 40 years for the Catholic Church to actually admit that they were doing horrible things.

[Megyn Kelly]

And for that to be invested only sort of.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Only sort of admit it and then pay a bunch of settlements, right? Four decades instead of 40 months. And imagine like some bad actors decide, you know what? Let's see if we can put into the large language model, et cetera. How do we make a better Covid or what are great ideas? How do we build nuclear bombs? How do we do this stuff? We've been able to contain that information and then contain the tech techniques. These things are to come up with really, really great ideas. And it used to be law enforcement would read thrillers and science fiction in order to figure out. And terrorists would do this as well, because the science fiction and the authors were really good at saying, hey, here's a crazy idea for a terrorist attack because they're trying to get ratings or make a very compelling movie, et cetera. So there have been instances where three letter agencies went to specific science fiction and thriller authors to have them brainstorm the stuff. This is going to be brainstorming all kinds of bad ideas and putting into People's heads and we're going to have to figure it out. And Chamath's right. These robots could be rooted very easily self driving cars as well. And it's exactly like the situation. These two stories parallel each other. The Facebook story of growth at all costs. And don't worry about the outcome because we're in competition with LinkedIn and we're in competition with Instagram and Twitter. When you get a bunch of rabid entrepreneurs globally fighting it out, then what happens is they're like, you know what, we'll move fast and we'll break things. In this case, if you move fast and break things, we could have very bad consequences. The people who work at OpenAI joined that company, Elon funded it in order to make sure all of the code was open sourced and that they were thinking about safety and everybody got access to it. So there was parity in the world. Sam Altman, in a very selfish act, then flipped it to his own personal piggy bank where he would make unlimited amounts of capital from it and made a closed AI. This technology needs to be monitored. And you're going to have companies because they want growth saying, you know what, we'll risk it, we'll risk it. And that's where sensible legislation or sensible controls would make sense, at least, least thoughtfulness about it. And this is why David Sacks being the czar of AI is so great, because he is thinking about these issues.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, we don't even have like the thing that's disturbed me with the robots is, I mean, among other things, there's no defense. You know, a lot of us have guns thanks to them being an advertiser in the show. I also have Burna, which is non lethal self defense. It's basically like a little chemical weapon and a bullet. So you've got a bunch of different options available to you. None of that will work on the crazed robot or robots showing up at your door trying to. I don't. We have no defense at the moment to these things and yet we're just proceeding. I don't know if it's fair to say blindly Chamath, but like we're proceeding rapidly down the lane of empowering them.

[Jason Calacanis]

Yeah, the pro. The problem that we have is that whenever we think about slowing this stuff down, we're faced with the scepter of a much bigger risk, which is these are national level security issues. And so now we have to think about us as the United States and what do we do versus our frenemies abroad who have their own intentions with these technologies. So, you know, us versus China is probably the best way to explain this. But in that video, your first video, Megan, that was a, you know, a Chinese startup, we have our own versions of those Chinese startups. What are we to do if they continue unabated? They look at that video and they say, it is what it is. We'll deal with the consequences of a few deaths here or there. We want this to happen. We want us to be the first country that has them. And then like belt and road, we will put our robots all over the world. Could you imagine if there's a class of these robots that can enable productivity and GDP growth and instead of financing roads and waterways in Africa or in Asia, China just shows up with just boatloads and boatloads of these robots to do the work for folks and then just uplift entire societies. Imagine how much political and economic leverage they get it. So when you paint it in that lens, you're in this very difficult situation which is how do we slow people down here? And that's just a very hard thing to do. So I think that we have to find a way of going fast, embracing a handful of companies who we know has leadership we can trust. But otherwise, if we slow down, we're going to lose a much bigger race and I think that has much bigger consequences.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

I wonder if it's like the Manhattan Project, Jamath, if we need to just. I think it's like every ounce of energy into winning this AI race for general computer science.

[Jason Calacanis]

I really think it's like that because I think if we lose the GDP war, we're going to lose all the wars because if you don't have technical supremacy, we will lose military supremacy and we will lose economic supremacy. And then I don't know what America does if we're second in the pecking order on anything. That's not something we've had to deal with in the last hundred years.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, we don't want to be on the receiving end of an army of Chinese controlled robots like that one that was hanging from the mini crane.

[Jason Calacanis]

Or just.

[Megyn Kelly]

We're just orders.

[Jason Calacanis]

Or just orders.

[Megyn Kelly]

We're coming right back. Jcal and Chamath, stay with us for the full show. Trust in the media is at an all time low and let's be honest, it's no mystery why. We have all seen how stories are twisted, buried or outright ignored depending on who's in charge or what narrative they want you to believe. But now there's Ground News, an app and website that gathers related articles from around the world in one place, highlighting each source's political bias and corporate influence. Ground News created their Blind Spot feed to expose important stories receiving lopsided coverage and reveal how media narratives shape the conversation. And now you get 40% off the same unlimited access to their website and app through the Vantage Plan, which you can use to find the truth. Ground News is independent and supported by subscribers, not corporate interests. Check them [e-mail] Megan that's G-R-O-U-N-Dnews.com Megan to take back control of the news.

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[Megyn Kelly]

The Trump administration with a big win courtesy of the U.S. supreme Court late yesterday, which ruled 6 to 3 his ban on trans people serving in the armed services can go forward, will remain in place while the litigation plays out on the merits. So it's not the final final because there'll be a trial or there'll be a ruling, et cetera. But right now that's a good thing because what had happened was he's got a bunch of cases out there suing him for this executive order. The two most prominent came out of D.C. and the Seattle area, and those trial court judges both said this ban has got to go. It's riddled with animus. This is the one where the D.C. trial judge at federal court was like, it reeks of animus and hatred and it's unsupported by anything and it's absolutely biased and awful and I'm throwing it out. And actually the D.C. circuit Court of Appeals above her reversed her. So Trump was winning that one. But then another case bubbled up over in the 9th Circuit, first at the trial court level in the Seattle area. And that judge, who was a George W. Bush appointed judge, wasn't as nasty about it, but also said it's gotta go. I'm not going to let the ban stay in place while the litigation plays out because I do not see a likelihood of success on the merits for the Trump administration and the ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, very, very leftist court agreed with him. And that's the case that Trump appealed to the U.S. supreme Court. And the U.S. supreme Court just said, wrong, wrong 9th Circuit. This case can go forward and at the Seattle court and frankly over at the D.C. court, but the ban will be in place as it does. And this is driving the left insane. I mean, in some cases, it appears even literally, here's. Here's a woman from on TikTok. I don't know where we got this, but I'll tell you as soon as I get the attribution. But here's her challenge. Satech, I have a proposition, okay?

[Unknown Speaker]

If one person, one person can come in the comments and tell me what is so scary about transgender people, I'll shave my head. But it has to be a valid reason.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay?

[Unknown Speaker]

And I'll give you an example of a valid reason. I think you could ban bears from the military.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay?

[Unknown Speaker]

And I would say banning bears from the military would make a lot of sense. Let me tell you why bears are dangerous. Bears don't know if, you know, the person on their side or the person on the other side is the person they're supposed to be eating. Okay?

[1-800-Flowers]

So they could eat you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Your fellow servicemen has to be factual. It has to be. I am scared of a bear because a bear can eat me. I am scared of a transgender person because I don't know if they have a penis under their skirt. Like, what is it? Don't even try to come up here being like a lot of attacks from transgender people onto other people, because the facts are. That's actually just not true. The facts are white men are still the number one attackers of women.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay? So back to the. Let's just be sure that we understand white men are always the threat. But I have an answer for her, by the way. It was Libs of TikTok that found that and posted it. Transgenderism, gender dysphoria is in the DSM 5 as a mental disorder. That's all you need to be disqualified from serving in the military. Things you can be ejected from the military for or not allowed in in the first place. A history of anxiety. Add a history of any eating disorder, a history of depression. I mean, it's not hard to get banned from the military at all. And so gender dysphoria, which actually does appear in the DSM 5 as a disorder, is more than enough to qualify. So the ban was correct. It depends on the commander in chief and what he thinks is appropriate. This commander in chief says it's a no, but this is causing a lot of consternation. And it leads me to my question to you guys, which is, how likely does this make it that J.B. pritzker, the governor of Illinois and probably the most trans politician in the country, emerges as the Democrats great white hope because his whole family has put more funding into transing children, making sure that trans ideology gets into our schools and supported, you know, funneled down in a way that's very, very dangerous than anybody else. And this guy, while the rest of the Democrat Party seems to have taken a bit of a lesson, they may not be willing to totally embrace it, but they've, they've heard a little, at least on boys and girls sports, that they're on thin ice. This guy's doubling and tripling down on pushing boys into girls sports, on getting trans kids, all the, quote, help they need with the surgeries to the point where he's being celebrated in the Washington Post today as the future of the Dem Party, notwithstanding the fact that they're supposedly anti billionaire. Who would like to take that one?

[Jason Calacanis]

Well, I think what I would say on the first topic is if folks disagree with this, I think what they should probably do is invest the resources to influence the powers that be to redefine gender dysphoria as something that shouldn't be in the DSN5, and then they would have a more straightforward discrimination case. Probably what I see is actually pretty healthy form of government, which is you have decisions that are being made by the executive branch. So Trump is exercising his executive authority. Citizens and other groups who disagree with it, they bring it to a court of law, decision goes one way or the other, either party can escalate, and there's a due process that's happening. I think that that's my sort of view on that issue. But it's a microcosm of something that I think Trump does that people still don't seem to get, which is that he has this innate ability to shape the contours of potholes. And people fall into these potholes and they get obsessed around issues that are fundamentally small numbers of people are affected by them. And I think in that, what happens is there's just a lot of energy that's expended. And instead, what I think people should really be doing, and I think this is really what the Democrats should be doing, is kind of like up leveling this to what are the issues that affect the 79 million people that will need to vote for them if they're going to win in 2028. If you define the problem that way, you'd have a different surface area of things that mattered, where you'd expend legal resources and money. And I don't think that they've done that yet. So to the extent that JB is just working on vibes and he's listening to the echo chamber of people that say that these are important issues. They are to a small cohort. But it misses the bigger point, which is they are not the issues that will define how 80 million people will vote Democrat in four years.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

But they, I think you.

[Megyn Kelly]

But they can't. They're obsessed with identity. And that's, that goes beyond the some, the subset of people who are affected by gender dysphoria. The left, and in particular the left wing of the Democrat Party is obsessed, obsessed with identity.

[Jason Calacanis]

It's an effective mechanic to exploit the innate sense of something is wrong that some people have of right. For whatever reason, those folks have not maybe achieved what they wanted to achieve. They haven't exceeded the expectations that they had of themselves. Maybe their parents are doing better than them. They probably can't afford a home that they thought they would buy. Maybe they're still under school debt. All of these things create this situation where there's an innate sense of, in their language, inequality, inequity, frustration. And they're able to project that. The smart left wing politicians, and I give them credit for this, are able to take that, channel that and project them on a different set of issues that they can control. And that narrative allows them to organize people, to fundraise, et cetera. And so I think that people need to just understand that that's the mechanic that's going on. That's happened for decades on a whole host of issues, not just by the left but also by the right. And I think that right now we are in that cycle and in order to break it, you have to have a politician, a Bill Clinton type politician on the left who says, hold on a sec guys, here are the broad based issues that affect 80, 90 million Americans. And I'm going to try to get, you know, three quarters of them to vote for me. And that is not, that is not even close to happening right now in the Democratic Party.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Yeah, I just to build on Jamaat's comments, it is virtuous to think about are there any people who are being oppressed in the world and can we reduce their suffering? We had the civil rights movement here. We can look at incarceration in our country and people being put in jail who were innocent, you know, the Innocence Project and, you know, we did DNA testing to get some people, you know, who were incorrectly put in jail released. And every generation wants to fight for that. I think that picking the trans issue was a big mistake because as you framed it correctly, mk, the. The issue is a psychological disorder, and then it might be a lifestyle choice for adults. But the Democrats and some people, I remember when I was in Los Angeles, it was kind of like a cause celeb to have a trans kid. Oh, my God, you were so proud of them. And you became the most popular person at Crossroads or whatever school it was in LA because you were championing this. People want to champion injustice. I get it. But this is an issue that where if somebody is a child and they want to change genders, that has to be dealt with quietly, with compassion, with psychologists and doctors really thinking it through. Under no circumstances should irreversible surgery be given to children. And this is where, you know, the Republicans seized on a very stupid position that the Democrats decided they would make one of their core issues. And they spent over $150 million, according to these reports, on that one ad that says, kamala is for they them, Trump is for you. They absolutely overplayed that hand and didn't realize that women and Democrats, they didn't want children to have their bodies mutilated or be taking irreversible hormones. And the actual concept of doing that, now people are looking at going, whoa, we have to actually ban that. And that's, I think, one of the social issues where Chamat's right. You need to level it up and just say, hey, hey, this is something that should be done personally with a family. If you have a child suffering from this, and if an adult is suffering from it, great. But we have to take this off the national stage as an important issue. When we have really important issues like, you know, Putin, Xi AI, by the way, here's a.

[Jason Calacanis]

Here's another.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

So many more important issues to really bring to the table here.

[Jason Calacanis]

Instead of weaponizing it, here's another pothole issue that I think Trump, President Trump created that the left and the mainstream media fell into. But. But the due process issues of a handful, one or two illegal aliens that have been deported. And the reason I say that is Jason mentioned the Innocence Project. I actually looked this up last week, and there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of cases a year that the Southern Poverty Law center and the Innocence Project take up about due process issues of actual American citizens and you know how much attention that's gotten? 0. Not one second on the national stage. Instead, we're debating this one El Salvadorian who's already committed crimes, came as an illegal, committed crimes as an illegal, was supposed to get sent back. And we are obsessed, or we are supposed to be obsessed about his due process rights when There are actively 600 cases at any given time that the Innocence Project is taking up about actual Americans and their due process. And so you wonder, why does that happen? And I think it happens because, again, there is this innate sense that whatever people, whatever's happening in someone's life is just not working out the way that they thought. And other people are able to frankly just exploit that and channel it. The problem is they're channeling it at fringe issues. And when most people wake up, they're like, excuse me, don't you have any common sense? Those are not the issues of all of us.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, I see true out there. There's no better example of what you're saying than what happened with BLM and taking officer involved shootings of unarmed black men and elevating that to the big issue affecting the black community in America as opposed to having any willingness to take an honest look at what's happening on the south side of Chicago. No interest whatsoever at the number of deaths that occur there. A place I've been, a place I've interviewed moms who've lost their boys to repeat violence and over and over. But it's all to me based in the left's obsession with identity. And if it were so easy to just excise that piece of the party and have the normies in the Democrat party move forward, we could have a normal political contest again in the future. And this summit that they're having today with your pal Ezra Klein, who I know Chamath had a debate with on your podcast. He's featured. The Democrats decided to clean up.

[Jason Calacanis]

Clean up on aisle three. Clean up on aisle three.

[Megyn Kelly]

Ezra did not fare well hosting him. I'll show a sound bite of it as their retreat special guest to try to help them understand how to win again. Ezra Klein cannot talk identity obsession out of his party. It is a pernicious pancreatic, level four cancer that they. They can't take out and they can't live without the liver. Go ahead, Jake. Al.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Well, I was just going to say just to Sir Steel man, and a little bit Trump. I know you guys both have TDS Trump dedication syndrome, so I'm just going to give you the other side of it. Deny, which is you deny. You have dedication system. We'll get into it. But Trump is spectacular at triggering people and saying outlandish things like, we're going to reopen Alcatraz and we're going to send citizens to America. Right. But he does this to rile people up, and it is divisive, and it is also a mistake. And it's one of the reasons why Americans hate each other. And we have this massive conflict in the country. We can't focus on real issues. Trump is an equal part in this dysfunctional disaster. By telling people, we're gonna send people to Seekot, like a really sadistic, terrible prison without due process. Every human being in the United States, whether they're illegal or not, deserves some amount of due process. And by just sending people there, if you send 200 people, you're going to make a 1% or 2% error rate. It's just gonna happen. I come from a law enforcement family. I know all about this. Mistakes happen. It would've cost Trump nothing to. Instead of making these grant, you know, feeding his base with, we're gonna send people to the most sadistic, horrible prison and sending people to stand in front of the cages where they keep people and they have no mattresses, and they get to go outside for 30 minutes a day. This is torturous conditions. Instead of doing disgusting stuff like that, they could have just said, hey, we're going to send everybody to gitmo for about 30 days as a way station and make sure we get our facts correct and make sure we don't actually pick up an American.

[Megyn Kelly]

Some of the times that would have been a much better Gitmo would not have appeased Trump's critics. Just the word Gitmo is a massive trigger.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Listen, that's why I'm here.

[Jason Calacanis]

It is a trigger. It is used.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Gitmo is used for a way station, as a. As a neutral place to send people. And that would have actually been a little bit. You believe in no due process. You think these people should just get sent to that prison?

[Megyn Kelly]

Covered the Supreme Court and the courts for Fox during all those years where Gitmo was front and center in the news, let me assure you, this would not have appeased the left in any way, shape or form. He was.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

What about you, Megan? Do you think people should be picked up from the streets and sent to Seekot? Do you think they should have due process? Yes or no?

[Megyn Kelly]

I think they had due process. These people who are getting shoved out to Seekot have been deported already. They've gotten their due process.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

You think there's a possibility we'll make a mistake?

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, I guess so, but I'm really more focused on the mistakes that, that Joe Biden made that got Lake and Riley killed, that got Jocelyn Nungari killed. Like, that's what matters to me. Like, I frankly, Yeah, I got it.

[Jason Calacanis]

No, I think what she's saying is compassion is a two way street. It applies to everybody. It applies to the victims of the people that have been hurt.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Of course. And that's why just a modicum of due process, what would the harm be? And then what's the harm of saying, hey, if we did make a mistake, let's take a look at a due process.

[Megyn Kelly]

Like Abrego Garcia Collective deported. He had an order of removal. It was just, he wasn't supposed to go to El Salvador, but the guy's totally removable. He.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

So we did make a mistake Hearings. Okay, so we made a mistake.

[Megyn Kelly]

They originally said it was a mistake. The Trump administration said that. Then they turfed that lawyer who admitted that in court. Put him on ice. But listen, here's the thing. Well, by the way, there's a report right now in the news that they allegedly shipped eight women to SEOT and then said, oh, you know what, that was a mistake, and sent them back. So I don't think we can take the position that the Trump administration.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

So we've made nine mistakes out of 200 mistakes. So that's 4, 4, 4%.

[Megyn Kelly]

But you have any idea what they go through? Like, Jason, I just interviewed Tulsi last week. I asked her, what do they go through? Like, why should we trust the process? You tell me it's not a brown man. He's out of here. It's. And wearing a Chicago Bulls sweatshirt. This is what the left would have you believe. They go to the dea. There's nobody in the country who better knows who gang members are than the DEA that spends its days immersed in them up to the neck trying to figure out who's selling drugs to whom and for whom. And if we have a 4 or 5% error rate.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

If we have a 4 or 5, 5% error rate, that's too high. You just explained a 4% error rate.

[Megyn Kelly]

So it's like you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. See, that's the thing, Jamaica. I'm just saying there are errors that they rectify. The Trump administration is worried about. Then it's. We could take this too high error rate. But if you if you don't, 4%.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Seems pretty darn high, then that's a problem, too.

[Jason Calacanis]

If we could actually take this much. If we could take this much energy and actually focus it on US Citizens and the problems of the US Citizens, we would be in an incredibly great place.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

The problem is we're going to wind up making mistakes with US Citizens. It's bound to happen. So I respectfully think we should just do a little bit more. If they have a 4% error rate.

[Jason Calacanis]

I would try to get to 1%. I would love for you to care even one inch more about a US citizen.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Of course I do. I care about all citizens. You know my position on human rights. I believe in the universal declaration of human rights. Whether it's, you know, the Uyghurs, Jake, more people being exported. Everybody should have some due process and there should be compassion. And we. Shouldn't people put people in. Let me ask you a questions like this.

[Megyn Kelly]

What is the name of the El Salvadoran who we sent to El Salvador despite the fact that he wasn't supposed to be deported there?

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Oh, we don't need to get into like a quiz. If I know everybody's name, we have nine people who are sent. I don't. Off the top of my head. I mean, I've read five articles. Happen.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'll give you. I'll give you a multiple choice. Is it Mr. Hernandez, Mr. Fernandez, or Mr. Abrego Garcia?

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

I think it's the third one, but I don't remember. I've read two or three stories on.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, and what is the name of the young mother of five who was brutally murdered by an illegal in the same state of Maryland?

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

I don't have all these committed to memory. I mean, I. Okay, but I read tons of stories. Megan, this is.

[Megyn Kelly]

I know. I'm not trying to embarrass you.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Silly argument. No, you're trying.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, no, no.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

But no, no, you're trying to belittle my opinion. My opinion actually is an invalid one, Meg. And I take offense to you trying to play quiz game with me. The most important thing is human rights. The average and human rights matters. And we should apply them to Keep.

[Megyn Kelly]

Trying to go over, maybe even to.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

I just want to finish my sentence. Human rights should apply to all of us.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, I was making a point and you took the feel for me. I'm taking it back. Abrego Garcia is a name known by virtually every American right now. There are polls on him. Virtually every American knows that name because it's been all over the media. Almost nobody knows the name Rachel Morin, which is the name of the mother who had five children, who was brutally murdered by an illegal. Did Chris Van Hollen, the senator from Maryland, go to her family, go to her funeral, provide comfort to her mother? No. It's a no. Nobody even knew her name until the mother was forced in front of the White House press corps by the Trump administration, which gave her the opportunity to speak about her daughter's disgusting murder. And she begged people to focus not on due process for these illegals, but what they're doing to us. What's happening to young mothers like Rachel, who had no chance against this guy who beat her so brutally. There was an outline of blood against the wall that he raped her on. It's just. This is the problem. It's. It's the problem that Chamath is trying to outline for you, that we spend all this energy on the guy having margaritas with Chris Van Hollen and not even 1, 100th pointing out the Americans that they've hurt, which is an important part of the calculus. It's the reason we need to get them out. We need to get them out fast. And people like me and maybe Jamal have almost no sympathy for their due process claims.

[Jason Calacanis]

I would like to say something as well, which is that I think that what we have lacked is the courage to prioritize. And there is a hierarchy of ideas that matter. And I think that we've not been allowed to say that for a long time. But in that hierarchy, what we need to realize is that the single most important thing that dictates the long term security and success of the United States is one thing thing, which is the technological supremacy of America. If we lose it, we lose everything else. But if you have it, all of a sudden you're in a position to have economic supremacy and military supremacy. If you have economic supremacy, all of a sudden you have the ability to do a lot of things for American citizens and also for people abroad because we think it's the morally and ethically right thing to do. But if you can't get your priorities straight and everything matters and everything gets devolved into a two minute sound bite and we lose the plot we are going to lose. And that's been difficult to say because it seems like you come off as like some callous, unemotional person. And it's not about that. It's about having the courage to understand that leadership takes prioritization. And what I see right now is that the things that matter are being prioritized. I'LL give you but one example. Three weeks ago, the Chinese government sent a memoir to the government of South Korea that said, these rare earths that we send you, you cannot send into the US Military supply chain. If you do, there'll be consequences. Do you understand the implication of that, how important that is? China also controls the overwhelming majority of our pharmaceutical API inputs. China is also at the forefront of all of this AI Stuff that we're talking about. China is the only one that can make the critical technologies for batteries that we use for everything. If we can't just understand that these things are the things that matter and underneath, it's messy, government is messy. There will be some mistakes. And as long as there's some reasonable way. You gotta get the high order bit right? The high order bit on which Trump was elected on that specific issue is there are a lot of people that are here that should not be here. And 80 million people said those folks should be sent back. And I think you have to honor that. And you have to have the ability, one second, you have to have the ability then to go and honor all of these other things that are important. And I would just wish that the media, instead of fanning the flames around one person in C. COD or this or that, would actually narrowly allow America to understand the arc of what really matters. I'll give you another example of what really matters. It turned out that we borrowed $51 billion less than we thought last month. You know how consequentially important that is, that we are on the thanks to Doge. But. Except what do we see? We see Doge get vilified. We see Elon Musk get vilified in the same breath by the same people that then all of a sudden make this one person the center of attention. And this is where there needs to be some amount of common sense and prioritization, because these issues are hard. I get it. There'll be some mistakes that are made. But this is where courage is defined. Have the ability to say what really matters, create a hierarchy, focus on those things and fix those things that make the lives of most Americans better. And then worry about the edge cases.

[Megyn Kelly]

Go ahead.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

No, we all agree, like, the border should be secured and we shouldn't let criminals into the country and that criminals should be dealt with. My position on it is human rights matter, and maybe that makes me old school, but I think Americans and immigrants should all be treated with the same due process and with the same care. And how. Yeah, I kind of do, actually.

[Megyn Kelly]

I think on deportation how you.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

I think they should have proper due process, and I think people should be treated compassionately. This is a nation that was built by immigrants. Chamath is an immigrant to this country. Freeberg, Elon and David Sachs, all my besties are immigrants to this country. We should treat immigrants really well, and we should encourage immigration.

[Megyn Kelly]

I have nothing to complain about our citizens. They're literally our little girl. Listen, get out.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

There are immigrants. Yes, of course. And we have a legal system for that. My point is there is a sadistic nature to how this is being done that I disagree with. And I believe how you treat people who have the least amount of power, whether it's poor people or immigrants, matters. And I think we should hold ourselves to a very high human rights standard. We wrote the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Eleanor Roosevelt wrote it. The UN Approved it.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, but let me ask you.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

We don't hit all the notes on it, but we should aspire to hit all the notes on it.

[Jason Calacanis]

It.

[Megyn Kelly]

How can we possibly do that for 10 million illegals? How can we possibly do that?

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Oh, the overwhelming number of them are incredible contributors to our society. Like Chamath Polyhapatiya.

[Megyn Kelly]

Like, they don't get.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Even the illegal ones.

[Megyn Kelly]

Even the Chamath is not an illegal.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

No, I'm adding. I waited in the illegal ones. I know you.

[Jason Calacanis]

I got. I got even visa. The illegal ones.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

I said even illegal ones.

[Megyn Kelly]

How do you. You're kind of due process for 10 million illegals.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

You cannot. You cannot do it for 10 million. But the overwhelming number of them are working hard in restaurants, in home. Treat them compassionately.

[Megyn Kelly]

I realize you disagree with it. You're not disagreeing. You want people to stay.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Trump's on page.

[Megyn Kelly]

Trump has to deport 2,000 people a week. But they're not.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

He's lying.

[Megyn Kelly]

Trump has said they're going, and the American populace wants them gone. The polls show that the majority of Americans wants all of them, not just the criminal criminals. All of them. 56% was the last number. So to those Americans who said, I want them gone, and I voted for the president who said he'll get rid of them, how would you say, okay, we got to do it? Because that's what people want. But me, Jake, Hal, I say they have to get some measure of due process. So how are you going to give it to 10 million people before they deport them?

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

It's such a good question, Megan. So first of all, illegal immigrants in this country statistically do less crime than Americans because they're on their best behavior. Because they know that deportations can occur. That's fact number one. Fact number two, Trump is deporting about 2,000 people a week, maybe 3,000. He's on pace to deport maybe a half million people in his presidency. It was a lie. It was a political lie that he would deport 20 million. That is a Steve Bannon lie to get elected. This is a country he's not trying. Built by him. No, he literally lied and did that to get votes from the base and to get the base to come out. We all know that.

[Megyn Kelly]

You put that all on.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Just like when he says you don't.

[Megyn Kelly]

Think the ACLU had a role in slowing down the numbers.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Listen, the point is, Trump says a lot of things, and he says bombastic, exaggerated things. One of the things he said he would recruit the. Hold on, let me finish. He said you wanted to. Let me finish.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'll give it to you. And shut down the Alien Enemies Act. Go ahead. Sorry.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Number one, he said we would end the war in Ukraine in one day. We all know that. He says stuff like that. He said he would deport 20 million people. Stephen Miller said it at the rally in Madison Square Garden. America is for Americans and Americans only. We're deporting all 20 million. Steve Bannon said on the all in podcast, we are absolutely deporting all 20 million. It is not true. Trump says things that are not true to win votes or to get attention, just like any other politician. They all do it. So the truth is he will deport 500,000 to a million people. And if we deported all 10 or 20 million, whatever the real number is, our economy would collapse. It would be absolute economic destruction for the country. We are vilifying Americans. We are vilifying immigrants who are coming to America to work hard to do the jobs Americans don't wanna do at a time when we have the lowest unemployment. Of course there is, but we have to deal with 10 million people here. And if 9.5 million of them are great citizens who are working hard, give them a path. Charge them a fine citizens, give them a path.

[Megyn Kelly]

If they're working, they get to jump the line in front of people.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

It is unfair. It is unfair, but we as Americans, let them in. It is unfair, but we let them.

[Megyn Kelly]

In and we're using them as not true. Some of us were jumping up and down for all four years of Biden, in all eight years of Obama, saying, Republicans deeply wrong and dangerous. We did nothing.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Republicans wanted open borders in nafta. They wanted Mexicans to be able to.

[Megyn Kelly]

Cross the border used to be on the wrong side of this. Yeah, you're not wrong.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

So if we as Americans.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, I got Republicans, hold on.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

If Republicans and Democrats let these people come into the country, give them a.

[Megyn Kelly]

Path, the horse, give them a path to be American begging for you to stop beating it. Okay, let's move on because here. Do you agree with that chamath that if we actually managed to get rid of 10 million illegals, the economy would collapse?

[Jason Calacanis]

Yeah, I don't think that that's a reasonable outcome. I don't think that that's economically viable. But the reality is that there is. There is a number of people between 0 and 10 million that may not be the best suited to be in the United States for a whole host of reasons. I think that there was a bunch of reporting that when we think about, especially in the last few years, a lot of these illegals weren't from Central and Southern America. In fact, they were coming from all parts of Asia. They were coming from various countries that weren't necessarily great fans and supporters of the United States. There's still an inherent risk that we have a lot of latent risk, especially the last few years of folks that came across the border. There needs to be a way to find that out, assess that risk and deal with them. I think it's naive to think that everybody's just kind of economically, productively adding to the fabric of the United States. And I think that that creates a risk that the United States government has the right and has been given the authority to figure out. So they should go and figure that out.

[Megyn Kelly]

Meanwhile, let me say this one thing in support of jcal's argument. If Trump really wanted these people gone, he would institute E Verify and he would make sure that the employers cannot pay these people because you have to do. E VERIFY verifies whether this person is a citizen or not. And if the answer is no, then they don't get paid, they have to leave their job, and then they will leave the country. They will self deport eventually because they can't get hired anywhere except by, you know, somebody under the table. And so if Trump wanted to, that's a remedy that's been pushed on him by large factions of today's Republican Party. And he never speaks of it. He clearly doesn't want to do it. And I'm sure it's because he doesn't want to piss off the business community and in particular a lot of those Republicans who used to be very pro open borders. Jason's not wrong about that either.

[Jason Calacanis]

Yeah. Look, here's the interesting thing. I think what's fair is we have to acknowledge we got to stick the landing here. We're in a very delicate situation. We're in the middle of a tariff war. We're trying to figure out how to navigate this very complex geopolitical situation with China. I think that we have to make sure that 98% of our energy is going into that and the cascading set of issues that come from that, because if we don't get that right, nothing else will matter that much. And so I think it's important.

[Megyn Kelly]

This is why you're in favor of the tariffs, by the way. Is this why you like the tariffs?

[Jason Calacanis]

I'm a huge supporter of these tariffs for one very specific reason, Megan. We completely ignored what we learned in Covid. What we should have taken away from COVID beyond the fact that we created the virus. The second thing we should have taken away is we are in an incredibly fragile position where we cannot take care of our own citizens if we need to. It's the most advanced country in the world that had the absolute worst death rates in the world. We mandated school closures, we mandated masks. We mandated vaccines. We probably made our citizenry sicker than they would have been otherwise. All for what? It's not clear. And so taking a step back, what we should have done is started a holistic process to say, if this or any other thing happens in the future, can we take care of our own people? And the answer today is no. And I think what tariffs have done, at least for me, is laid bare that we have had our eyes closed for 25 years, and if we don't wake up to the issue that we cannot take care of ourselves, we are creating enormous compounding risk for U.S. society.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Yeah. And the. The thing about these mass deportations, I think, just to wrap it up there, Megan, it's super important, is it would cause a recession. It would cause 4% GDP and contraction, and that's really what it comes down to. And the areas where we do have illegal immigrants working construction, agriculture, and hospitality, these are critical industries for our country. Trump has used tons of illegal immigrants. It's all been documented. In the early part of his career, Republicans have been in favor of this. All I'm saying is, and I think we're actually in sync, and this is one of the problems with America Today, media today, which we are both part of. We're all part of it. It's trying to find common ground. So instead of trying to stick Me. That. That or me trying to stick you. Let's find the common ground here. Common ground. We want the border closed. We want an orderly process. Common ground. We want all of the illegals that are committing crimes out of the country on the margins. We might disagree about the level of due process. Okay, fine. We can debate it and we can find a compromise there. We also need to have this economy have a soft landing. And what Trump's doing with tariffs, little too volatile for my taste. We'll get into it. And this deportation concept, the reason he's not doing the deportation is he knows it won him votes, but he knows it will crash the economy, therefore he's not doing it. So we can actually, Megan, Agree that we don't want to deport 10 million. Trump doesn't want to. And you actually don't want to deport at all 10 million.

[Megyn Kelly]

I actually, I don't have.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

It'll crash the economy.

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't agree with you. I don't agree you want to crash the economy. I asked. I don't agree it would happen. I asked you your opinion. I asked Chamath his opinion. I did not yet give my opinion.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Okay?

[Megyn Kelly]

But I will now.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

That's. I'm asking.

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't think it would crash the economy. I really don't. I think that if you pay Americans a living wage, these companies in Silicon Valley, these agricultural companies, are gonna have to increase the paycheck and then they will get Americans who wanna do these jobs. And that's not too bad. That's not a bad consequence to me. I actually think that's a doable thing and that it will improve the landscape of America significantly. And I'm sorry that those people are here and tried to obey our laws once they broke them to get in. It's really shouldn't be my problem. The composure of the company has fundamentally changed as a result of these open borders. And it's not just on the face of crime. Um, it needs to change back. A lot of these people have no desire to assimilate, and that's how we got into this mess. And the Democrats do have a master plan to get these people to start voting in elections, which is basically almost as bad as making Canada our 51st state and letting all of them vote in our elections. It's just a mass of future Democrats that we don't want or need. So that's my position on it. Let me take a quick break and come back with a fun clip and then we'll find out how things went south between Chamath and Ezra Klein. All right, stand by. These days, personal safety is not something that can be left to chance. Whether at home, on the road, or just living everyday life, having a reliable way to protect yourself and your family is crucial. That's why Burna is the choice. For many, Burna is a game changing, less lethal self defense tool. Compact, powerful and easy to use, it provides the confidence to act in any situation. Burna uses non lethal rounds, tear gas, pepper and kinetic projectiles to effectively stop a threat from a safe distance. And the best part, Burna can be shipped directly to your door and it's legal in all 50 states. Burna is proudly American with products hand assembled in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Sometimes a firearm is not the right option and Burna provides a powerful alternative. Protect what matters most with Burna. Visit Burna.com that's by R N A.com Megan and that'll get you a 10% discount. And learn why thousands of people and law enforcement agencies are adding Burna's less lethal protection. Burna Non lethal self Defense Always ready Tax day may have passed, but for millions of Americans, the real trouble is just beginning. If you missed the April 15 deadline or still owe back taxes, the IRS is ramping up enforcement. You should know every day you wait might make things worse. With over 5,000 new tax liens filed daily and tools like property seizures, bank levies and wage garnishments, the IRS is applying pressure at levels we haven't seen in years. The good news? There is still time for Tax Network USA to help self employed or a business owner. Even if your books are a mess, they've got it covered. Tax Network USA specializes in cleaning up financial chaos and getting you back on track fast. Even after the deadline, it's not too late to regain control. Your consultation is completely free and acting now could stop penalties, threatening letters and surprise levies before they escalate. Call 1-800-958-1000 or visit tnusa.com Megan you may have missed April 15, but you haven't run out of options. Let Tax Network USA help before the IRS makes the next move.

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[Megyn Kelly]

I'm Megyn Kelly, host of the Megyn Kelly show on Sirius xm. It's your home for open, honest and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political, legal and cultural figures. Today you can catch the Megyn Kelly show on Triumph, a SiriusXM channel featuring lots of hosts you may know and probably love. Great people like Dr. Laura, Glenn Beck, Nancy Grace, Dave Ramsey and yours truly, Megyn Kelly. You can stream the Megyn Kelly show on SiriusXM at home or anywhere you are. No car required. I do it all the time. I love the SiriusXM app. It has ad free music coverage of every major sport, comedy talk podcast and more. Subscribe now. Get your first three months for free.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Go to SiriusXM.com MKShow to subscribe and get three months free. That's SiriusXM.com MKShow and get three months.

[Ezra Klein]

Free offer details apply.

[Megyn Kelly]

So Chamath, I mentioned Ezra Klein. He's the darling of the left. He's got a New York Times Times podcast and as the Senate Democrats meet today to figure out what the hell happened this past year to them and what's going to happen on a go forward basis, they brought him in as like their keynote savior guy who's going to show them the way forward. He and his data guru who he interviewed not long ago about, you know, the numbers and how they're showing massive gaps with young men in particular and young people flocking to the Republican Party. So you guys recently had Ezra Klein on the all in podcast and he came for you after you had told a story on all in about how accessible Trump is and how if you need to talk to anybody in the administration, you pick up a phone and call them and they'll pick up and actually speak to you. By the way, my experience as well, well, he didn't much like that. And here's how that went.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

This world in which we are doing the deal making by individual relationships, by who can get their calls answered, not by rules that feel clear as stable.

[Jason Calacanis]

Ezra, that's how the Biden administration.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Hold on a second.

[Jason Calacanis]

No, but that's how the Biden administration worked.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

No, Ezra, you're trying to make it sound like corruption.

[Jason Calacanis]

The Trump administration, what I have seen as a businessman is willing to hear the conditions on the ground as a businessman, when I was building. Ezra, just to be clear, critical rare earth supplies for America under the Biden administration. Battery cam materials to compete with China under the Biden administration. AI chips to be the best inference solution under the Biden administration. I couldn't get a call back. That's just the facts.

[Megyn Kelly]

But he prefers the old regime chamath because I guess it was less susceptible to the kind of corruption you were clearly calling to talk about.

[Jason Calacanis]

You know, I think that there's a vein of Democrats that love this sort of like insider clubby approach of like Hollywood movie stars plus athletes plus the Oval. And you know, in that clip as well, like, you know, he was talking about like George Clooney and I, and there's nothing, I don't have anything against George Clooney, but my what, you know what, what does George Clooney know about business? About anything. I, I don't particularly care what he thinks about business.

[Megyn Kelly]

Ignore journalism, for that matter.

[Jason Calacanis]

Just like you shouldn't care about what I think about acting or directing. We all have our zones of excellence. And the point that I was trying to make that I think really perturbed him is that Elon, myself, a whole bunch of others that have been investing money. Yes, but more important than money, all of our time, all of our social capital, all of our reputation to help the United States, it went into a black hole under Biden. They just despised the idea that we were doing things and it made no sense because we were so pro America and Pax America, President Trump on the other side, he's not always going to agree with you, but what I find is that team wants to know what are the actual details and they'll decide what they're going to decide. And I think that that's way better. Like when you're investing in a company, do you want a CEO that wants to know what's actually going on or that is cloistered where there's four or five gatekeepers who then tell him their version of the truth that I think is really dangerous. And I don't see that here. I did see that with Biden, and that's why I got frustrated with Ezra, because I think what he was basically saying is, you know, Trump is acting quite democratically and speaking to everybody. I liked it better when I had the inside track and there was a, you know, in club and a not in club, and I was in the in club. And I think that Democrats have a tendency to do that now. Again, they do that because that play has worked in the past. Bring around the Hollywood star, bring around the athletes, and all of a sudden there's this patina, and everybody thinks it's amazing and cool. And I can dance and I can sing and I can play an instrument, and all this stuff looks cool, but under the surface, it's brittle and vacuous. Whereas here, what I can tell you under Trump is the people that work for him are smart as hell. They'll argue with you, they'll debate issues with you. They'll ask you for what's going on. They'll talk to people that are on the exact opposite end of what they believe. That is what you want, because that healthy dialogue and debate, that's where you get to answers. And the reason why that's important, back to where I started is we're at a critical point in American history. We have to have the courage to prioritize, and you have to get the big decisions right. And I think that he is trending. Trending. The Trump administration is trending to get these big decisions right. And part of it is because they're willing to talk to everybody. And I think that if you look back, that's what you will give credit for as what drove the success, is because you knew the actual contours. He will.

[Megyn Kelly]

You know, Jason, after Bill Maher went for his visit to the White House, one of the things he said was, we sat down. He asked me what I thought about Iran. You're like, what should I do about Iran? And, you know, Bill Maher is like, I don't know. But that is. Trump will do that. And you may know, you may have an opinion, you may have no opinion, but I think this is one of his strengths, that he will ask anybody. He'll hear anybody out.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Yeah. You know, I am shocked, Meghan, absolutely shocked that money buys access or celebrity buys access. I never thought this would be the case with politicians. I thought they were so pure, you know, the. The Appearance of impropriety with this administration is high, admittedly, but that doesn't mean it's causation. Xrp, you know, they had a big SEC suit. They donated millions to Trump. The suit went away, Jeff Yass donated tens of millions and the TikTok ban got extended twice. Now Apple showed up, they donated. And how did it work out for us? Well, yes, I was about to bring that up and Apple came across. So we're going to have to parse each of these. You know, Eric Trump, Trump's done a bunch of stuff with the Trump coin. The SEC did a carve out for meme coins. So the appearance of impropriety isn't impropriety. But I do understand with both sides how they feel like people are buying access and getting results. That's the nature of the political.

[Megyn Kelly]

You're not gonna make me bring up the Hunter Biden laptop.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Absolutely. Hunter Biden getting paid millions of dollars to be on a board of a company that doesn't exist in the real world. Nobody gets paid millions of dollars. Even if you're on the board of Apple, I think you probably get like 250k and that might be the highest paid board in the world. It just doesn't exist. So grift exists, crime exists, paying for access exists, and that's the American system. If we want to change this, we should not let Nancy Pelosi trade stocks. We should get rid of super PACs. There should be a cap put on that. I believe that strongly. Even though many of my friends are donating tens of millions of dollars, I think. Yeah, I know. I kind of feel like we should maybe readdress that and look at maybe giving each of the last three candidates a certain amount of money to spend and make it a little bit more fair. But I'm a bit of an idealist, as you know.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, you can change the rules for elections. Congress does have that power, but they can't.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

And you know, this is part of the democratic process. And it does look at times, I understand the criticism that Trump looks coin operated at time, but I think we'll have to look at each of these individual cases. And if you put the totality of together, as Chavat's pointing out, I do have a lot of my lifelong friends who are working with Trump. Many of them are Democrats, by the way. For Trump to win the second election, he surrounded himself with Democrats like Chamath, Joe Rogan, Elon Musk, Tulsi, Tulsi Besant, I mean, a gay Democrat. And we go right down the line, Howard, lifelong Bobby Kennedy, the ultimate Democrat. So I think you can give two pieces of really great credit. One, Democrats guy got Trump back in the White House. Number two, Democrats are incredibly smart and effective business leaders who are now working with them. And number three, Trump is smart enough to know that he should flip all these Democrats and get them working in the White House. And he is good at building bridges and making people feel incredibly special when he talks to them and giving them 100% of his attention. I give him a lot of credit for those things. And you know what? That's why my position on Trump changed slightly, which is because he surrounded himself with lifelong Democrats who are highly effective. And so my friend Mark Pincus as well, it's just a long line of Democrats who got him in office. This time.

[Megyn Kelly]

He's not ideological. No, you're not wrong. He had a broad coalition of Republicans and Dems, both in terms of his cabinet and in terms of the voting populace.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Megan, my air conditioner went out. Did you say you said something? I'm not wrong. I've said that my earpiece went out.

[Megyn Kelly]

Did you say that this is why this kind of behavior is why they don't invite you to all the all in events? Jcap, Come on. I saw this clip.

[Jason Calacanis]

That's true.

[Megyn Kelly]

Steve Krakauer told this. This wasn't an MK find. This is a Steve Krakauer find. Where it turns out the besties are leaving JCAL out of their events. Let's watch.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Hard Questions. It's a private club in D.C. that Don Jr. S doing and Sacks is a member. Chamat's a member. And I just checked my Gmail. I checked all three of my Gmail accounts. Everything. No invite. Must have gotten lost. Again, if you want to be a.

[Ezra Klein]

Member, obviously there are dues and a membership fee and. And I just didn't want to waste your time with an offer. Well, I just popped in to reminisce about this trip that Chamath and Freeberg just did.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Yeah, trip of a lifetime. Trip of a lifetime. We had all the besties at the White House.

[Ezra Klein]

It was really incredible.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Incredible. It's interesting. I checked my spam filters and my enzyme got stuck in the spam filter. Wish you know, I had ski week this week, so I wouldn't have been able to make it. Anyway, I see that you guys are all going to be in the next Jeopardy. In the second round. My invite to Jeopardy. Somehow got lost. That was kind of a bummer. We have a good time. The Jeopardy Thing's not real. That's Photoshop.

[Megyn Kelly]

What's happening? Why isn't J. Cal getting all the invites?

[Jason Calacanis]

You know what's funny? He is the most charming person. Jason is of. Of the bunch. And so. And he is incredibly funny. And the thing with, like, the whole Trump thing is hilarious because I will facilitate David and I will facilitate a meeting of the minds, and I guarantee you that Trump will have J. Cal eating out of the palm of his head. They are so similar in some ways. They're just. They're meant to be besties, those two.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, he doesn't mind.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

I am scared to meet Trump because I do think we might wind up becoming besties.

[Jason Calacanis]

I think.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

Very scary for me.

[Jason Calacanis]

I think it's very likely.

[Megyn Kelly]

The besties may be excluding you, jcal, but you're welcome here anytime. It's a pleasure to have you. And you as well, Chamath.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

What happened to our discussion of side pube versus side boob or the meth gallery?

[Megyn Kelly]

You have.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

I saw it on the dot.

[Megyn Kelly]

If you'd like to say something about it, go.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

No, Chamath, I don't know if I know you know about side boo, but you know about side pube.

[Jason Calacanis]

I don't want to know about that. But I saw Megan just go totally off on the Met Gala yesterday.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

My favorite Megan. Fantastic Patty Megan when she goes after other people's looks.

[Jason Calacanis]

Oh, my gosh.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

That's my favorite Megan. I like legal Megan.

[Jason Calacanis]

Please take that off the screen.

[Chamath Palihapitiya]

And I like gala Megan when she takes apart the Met gala. You better.

[Megyn Kelly]

I gotta go. Cutting you off. You're such an ad, Megan.

[Jason Calacanis]

Such an a.

[Megyn Kelly]

See you soon, guys. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly Show. No bs, no agenda, and no fear.

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