Ambassador Eisen Discusses Lawsuits Against Trump

Summary

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The MeidasTouch Podcast

Episode: Ambassador Eisen Discusses Lawsuits Against Trump

Date: November 20, 2025
Host: MeidasTouch Network (Ben, Brett, and Jordy Meiselas)
Guest: Ambassador Norm Eisen, Democracy Defenders Fund

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on recent efforts to force the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files by the Trump administration, with special focus on the congressional and legal battles required to ensure transparency. The Meiselas brothers and guest Ambassador Norm Eisen dissect MAGA Speaker Mike Johnson’s reversal on the Epstein files, the bipartisan congressional maneuvering to expedite their release, ongoing lawsuits to ensure unredacted documents reach the public, and broader efforts combating Trump-era corruption.

The conversation is rich in both legal and political analysis, with Eisen offering an insider’s look at Democracy Defenders Fund’s litigation strategy and underscoring the critical alliance between legal, political, and grassroots public activism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Congressional Maneuvering for the Epstein Files

(01:12–05:12)

• MAGA Mike Johnson’s Reversal:

  • After public stalling, Speaker Johnson caves and allows the House to pass a resolution requiring the DOJ to release the Epstein files.
  • Dems forced Johnson’s hand with a unanimous consent floor motion, causing political turmoil and public scrutiny.
  • UNANIMOUS passage in the Senate, driven skillfully by Majority Leader Chuck Schumer.
  • Republicans, including Johnson, express concern over the bill but ultimately fail to block it.

• Clip Excerpt: Johnson appears frazzled, unsure if the bill will be vetoed or if adequate amendments will be added.

  • “I am deeply disappointed in this outcome. ... I just spoke to the president about that. We’ll see what happens.” (02:22–02:45, Speaker Mike Johnson)

2. Skepticism About the Trump Administration’s Transparency

(05:12–07:15)

• Guest Segment – Ambassador Norm Eisen:

  • Eisen hails MeidasTouch for being “fighters” and points out the necessity to remain vigilant even with legislative wins:
    • “The place where we need to be the most truthful is about the biggest corruption scandal of the Trump administration, the cover-up of the Trump Epstein files.” (05:22, Eisen)
  • Describes how court oversight and FOIA lawsuits are essential to ensure nothing important is withheld or redacted under the pretext of national security or legal privilege.

• Sen. Schumer’s Direct Quote:

  • “We gotta make sure we get all of the Epstein files, all. They can’t fuck around with this… I don’t trust this administration… they could screw around with this. It’ll be all of our jobs to be on them and make sure that we get everything.” (07:30–07:53, Sen. Chuck Schumer)

3. Legal Strategy for Full Disclosure

(07:53–10:11)

• Eisen’s Legal Tactics:

  • Using FOIA and judicial oversight to ensure document integrity.
  • Pointing to evidence from public third-party sources (like the 23,000 Epstein estate emails, half involving Trump) to spot missing info or telltale gaps.
  • Pinned down technique: “You start with the documents… look for obvious inconsistencies with what we know from the public record… The most important thing you can do… get the courts involved.” (08:43, Eisen)

• Broader Mission:

  • Eisen asserts: “We must get those Trump Epstein files full, complete and unredacted.” (10:07, Eisen)

4. The Comey Case and Systemic Legal Abuse

(10:11–13:37)

• New Bombshell:
  • Live reporting of federal hearing in Virginia reveals the Trump DOJ didn’t present the operative indictment against James Comey to a grand jury, meaning the prosecution is invalid.
  • Prosecutors refuse to turn over memos recommending against charging Comey—raising major transparency and due process concerns.
  • Eisen’s Take:
    • “It’s exactly as legally effective as if you and I wrote an indictment of Donald Trump right here... She had never been before a grand jury.” (12:18, Eisen)
    • “This is another example where we have filed a legal brief... This is a joke and a new low.” (12:45, Eisen)
  • Eisen: Attempted prosecutions are “another one that I think is doomed because of the incompetence. Who knows how much trouble we would be in if Donald Trump were a competent authoritarian. Instead, it’s the gang that can’t shoot straight.” (13:16, Eisen)

5. Building and Winning Through Legal Resistance

(13:37–17:20)

• Litigation as Resistance:
  • Meiselas notes how Trump’s opponents—often corporations—used to buckle but now, with groups like Democracy Defenders, there’s a broader, coordinated fightback in both courts and public debate.
  • Eisen describes the mission as “rule of law shock and awe”—pursuing more than 225 cases, “pretty much one for every day of the Trump administration.” (14:54, Eisen)
  • Eisen reflects on electoral and legal victories post-Trump, citing “the engine of democracy” is running strong, and independent media (like MeidasTouch) play a crucial complementary role to courtroom battles.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Maga Mike crumbled like a cracker on the steps there… He didn’t know what to say.”
  Ambassador Norm Eisen, 05:29

• “This bill has steamrolled through Congress… Only one vote against it in the House. Unanimous consent in the Senate. Excellent parliamentary legerdemain.”
  Ambassador Eisen, 05:35

• “We must get those Trump Epstein files full, complete and unredacted.”
  Ambassador Eisen, 10:07

• “Who knows how much trouble we would be in if Donald Trump were a competent authoritarian. Instead, it’s the gang that can’t shoot straight.”
  Ambassador Eisen, 13:16

• “With voters having repudiated Trump in the referendum on November 4, a landslide win… the no hands protests have built from three million to five, to seven million… All the pistons of the engine of democracy are really starting to work.”
  Ambassador Eisen, 16:09

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:12 – MAGA Mike Johnson’s reversal on Epstein files
• 05:12 – Ambassador Eisen joins, Trump/Epstein cover-up analysis
• 07:30 – Sen. Schumer’s quote on vigilance over the Trump administration
• 08:43 – Eisen’s approach for vetting document dumps
• 10:07 – Eisen declares need for “full, complete and unredacted” files
• 12:18–13:37 – Breakdown of the Comey indictment farce
• 14:54–17:20 – Eisen on the power and progress of coordinated legal resistance

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Conclusion

This episode offers a deep dive into the high-stakes battle for transparency around the Epstein files, highlighting both successful congressional maneuvers and the relentless legal efforts led by Ambassador Norm Eisen’s Democracy Defenders Fund. Combining sharp legal insight, political strategy, and the brothers’ trademark irreverent banter, the episode culminates in a rallying call for ongoing public activism and legal vigilance in the face of authoritarian threats.

Listeners are encouraged to stay informed, support organizations fighting for democracy, and maintain pressure in both the court of law and public opinion.

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Transcript

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Mark is a Mochi member, compensated for his story. The chair lays before the House an.

[A]

Enrolled bill, HR 4405, An act to require the Attorney General to release all documents and records in possession of the Department of Justice relating to Jeffrey Epstein and for other purposes. Folks, it's official. MAGA Mike Johnson has caved. After going through every possible permutation about how he was not going to transmit the House resolution to release the Epstein files to the Senate. After the Democrats put that unanimous consent motion to the floor and received no objections from Republicans and MAGA Mike spent the night trying to figure it out, figure it all out. He was literally pacing through the halls, looking absolutely shook the halls of the Capitol building. A reporter caught up with him, was like, what are you going to do, MAGA Mike? Just look how frazzled he looked last night. Here, play this clip.

[B]

Any reaction to Lee rain the bill without adding amendments or changing it?

[A]

I am.

[B]

I'm deeply disappointed in this outcome.

[A]

I think I'm told I've been. It's a state dinner. I don't know. I was just told that Chuck Schumer rushed it to the floor and put it out there preemptively.

[B]

It needed amendments.

[A]

I just spoke to the president about that. We'll see what happens.

[B]

So is he. Do you think he may veto it? You say you spoke to the president.

[A]

I'm not saying that.

[B]

Is he supportive of it in its current form? We both have concerns about it.

[A]

So we'll see.

[B]

If I was standing there with the.

[A]

Crown prince who couldn't call me. Are you frustrated in the majority leader? Are you upset with the majority leader? He goes, we're just hanging out with the crown prince. I mean, as Americans are struggling, living paycheck to paycheck, we don't like this. Yes, I voted for it. We may veto it. We're hanging out with the crown prince. Okay. And then moments before that, he was kind of saying that he was confident that the Senate was going to have his back, but Thune did not have his back. Here, play this clip.

[B]

I'll tell you, there's a handful of.

[A]

Republicans, Judiciary Committee members and a few others who are, who are really struggling, as I have been, about whether or.

[B]

Not they could even vote yesterday because of this, because we don't have an absolute guarantee that this will be fixed in the Senate.

[A]

I have a high degree of confidence in that.

[B]

And that's why, you know, that's why I'll be voting.

[A]

Yesterday he said the Senate was going to change it. The Senate did not change it. The Senate received the bill to release the Epstein files from the House when it was passed. And I'll just show you. We have Hallie Robson, a former Trump supporter and an Epstein survivor. Here's what she had to say about maga. Mike, Republican, you've spoken about that. I wonder what your reaction is to Speaker Johnson saying that this vote was a political show vote by the Democrats. Well, I was present in the room when they were doing the votes, as well as all the survivors. And I can say the only theatrics I saw was from him. I think some of his comments were on that fine line. This is not a hoax. There is no feeder coming from us or the survivors on our end. I'm appalled by him in general, and I've lost a lot of respect by him. Just the back and forth with Adelita Grijalva. You will never convince me she was a deciding vote at the time for the petition. That's why you said that. Okay. Yes. Let's bring in Ambassador Norm Eisen from Democracy Defenders. You have hundreds of lawsuits against this regime to hold them accountable. One such lawsuit involves, and there's a variety of methods that you're doing. This, though, involves the FOIA request to release the Epstein files from the DOJ to hold them accountable. So let's first talk about MAGA Mike Caving, but then the corollary, which is if Donald Trump does actually sign this thing, we know he's going to continue to try to cover it up. And so what do we do to get it, Norm? It's great to see on the Midas Touch podcast.

[B]

It's so great to be on Midas Touch. And the reason that I love what you all do is because you are fighters and you exemplify the motto be truthful, not neutral. And the place where we need to be the most truthful is about the biggest corruption scandal of the Trump administration, the COVID up of the Trump Epstein files. We know they exist now. This bill has steamrolled through Congress. It was incredible to see Magamite Maga might crumble like a cracker on the steps there. That footage, he didn't know what to say. And then you have, and then you have Chuck Schumer, very adroit in the Senate. He managed to get it through only one vote against it in the House. Unanimous consent in the Senate. Excellent parliamentary legerdemain. Senate magic by Leader Schumer. And now it's onto Trump's desk. But even if Trump signs this bill, we can't be confident that there won't be redactions of documents that hollow out the impact that they documents won't be held back. And that's why we at Democracy defenders fund over 200 legal cases and matters. Maybe the most important is our case to say we're not going to trust the Trump administration. Lord knows they squandered that trust on day one. We're going to have court oversight under the Freedom of Information act to make sure that anything that is produced is complete. No documents are held back, no improper redactions. We're fighting in court to get the truth out, including to support the victims who, who really believe that these files must be released.

[A]

You mentioned Senator Chuck Schumer and that was a really well done maneuver making that unanimous consent and doing it lightning fire. I had the opportunity to speak to Senator Schumer yesterday. Here's what he told me. Let's play it. We gotta make sure we get all of the Epstein files, all. They can't fuck around with this.

[B]

They can't say, oh, we'll give you.

[A]

This, but there are legal reasons we.

[B]

Can'T give you that.

[A]

And we are going to be pursuing them relentlessly to get everything because I don't trust this administration, I don't trust Bondi, I don't trust Keshe Patel, I don't trust the President. And they could screw around with this. It'll be all of our jobs to.

[B]

Be on them and make sure that we get everything.

[A]

Ambassador Eisen, if there was a common thread in the Epstein emails that the estate released, there was 23,000 emails, about 2300 email threads, over 1600, more than half involved Donald Trump in some shape or form. So they may as well be called the Trump emails. So we know, and as a litigator, one of the ways you're able to determine if there are gaps or missing numbers or Bates numbers that are missing is by kind of comparing third party sources. So how do you go about though determining and how should we as the public kind of figure out when they do these drips and drops of document dumps? We know they're not, they're going to hide the good stuff. What do we do?

[B]

Well, you start with the documents that we're getting themselves. And you look for are there obvious inconsistencies with what we know from the public record? You look at the redactions, what being blacked out on the page. Does that make sense? But the most important thing you can do, and we've done it at Democracy Defenders Fund, use federal law which requires the release of these documents. Get the courts involved. We've sued in court, so there's court oversight of the release. And the judicial process assures that you're actually getting what you should be getting. And the Trump administration has helped us in that. In they themselves have admitted the release of these documents is in the public interest. When they were trying to get the Ghislaine Maxwell grand jury files released to the public, they made that admission. We are hammering that admission in pushing for an order in our court. We're going to win this case. We're going to do oversight to make sure that anything that is released according to the congressional bill is complete and no documents are held back, no improper redactions. That's what we owe to the public, to transparency and above all to the victims of the Epstein scandal. We must get those Trump Epstein files full, complete and unredacted.

[A]

You know, Ambassador Eisen, you refer to the Trump cover up of the child sex trafficking Epstein ring as the biggest corruption scandal. There's a lot of close number twos I think we can all concede. And any one of your hundreds of lawsuits involve one of those close number twos, which in any normal error would be far worse than I even think Watergate, just any of them. And it seems like every single day we get another example of that. I mean, let's just take this morning as you and I were recording this during a federal hearing in Virginia in the Comey case. Prosecutors in that case confirmed that the operative indictment in the case against James Comey was never shown to or voted on by the entire grand jury before it was presented in open court, which obviously Comey's lawyers argue that's a complete bar to the prosecution. We also thought that the biggest story of the morning from that hearing was gonna be that prosecutors in the Comey case told the judge that they were under orders from the Deputy Attorney General's office not to disclose whether career prosecutors wrote a memo recommending against indicting Comey. Prior to Halligan going to the grand jury, the United States Assistant Attorney Tyler Lemons told Judge Nakmanoff he had not gotten permission to disclose what he could consider to be privileged or work product material. So they haven't even turned over a memo from the career prosecutors who Trump fired and pushed out where they said, there's not enough evidence to indict James Comey and Letitia James and others. Just, I'm getting lots of questions from people, Ambassador Eisen, saying they're not turning over the memoir. They somehow indicted James Comey without presenting the indictment to the grand jury. Like, wtf? This has never happened before.

[B]

Then it's exactly as legally effective as if you and I wrote an indictment of Donald Trump right here on the Midas Touch. She had never been before a grand jury. She's an insurance lawyer. The reason they put Lindsey Allegan there was because the regular prosecutors refused to prosecute the case, wanted nothing to do with it, because the charges against Comey are so bogus and made up. This is another example where we have filed a legal brief on behalf of former judges to say to the court, this is a joke, and it's a new low. The indictment wasn't even presented to the grand jury. None of us have ever heard of anything like this. This case is going to be flushed by the courts. It should be. We've already seen Donald Trump starting to lose some of these baseless criminal prosecutions, and this is another one that I think is doomed because of the incompetence. Who knows how much trouble we would be in if Donald Trump were a competent authoritarian. Instead, it's the gang that can't shoot straight. Trump and his cronies like Lindsey Halligan.

[A]

Which kind of brings me to the last point, and I think it's a good way to talk about all of the litigation Democracy Defenders Fund. Everybody should go out and support democracy because you're doing great, great work, but the work that you're doing. Early on, we saw corporations Law firms, and we still do businesses capitulate, bend the knee. They would settle phony lawsuits and frivolous lawsuits that he would file. They would enter into weird settlements before cases were even filed. And it was so disheartening. But here we are heading towards Thanksgiving and groups like yours and others are fighting and winning. And the groups that have stood up have won. And not just one. They've exposed how weak and pathetic this regime is. Like we saw what happened in court when Lindsey Halligan, this horrible former insurance lawyer, showed up there and a federal judge, Nachmanov says, what the hell did you do? And she's like, I don't know, Judge. You just expose these are scared, weak, pathetic humans and that we just need to be strong. And I think you're leading the way on that. So I just want you to talk more generally about what you're doing, because we need fighters like you right now.

[B]

Well, we knew Donald Trump was going to flood the zone with his assaults on the Constitution and the rule of law. So we decided to do rule of law shock and all. And at Democracy Defenders Fund, we have over 200. I think the exact count now is 225 legal cases and matters, pretty much one for every day of the Trump administration. And together with our coalition, the Atlantic wrote an article analyzing the legal front as the part of the resistance that's working. And it is. We've got Donald Trump on the run in the courts. But Ben, I'm going to return the compliment because it's not enough to win in the court of law. This is where you and the Midas Touch network have come in. So powerful. You've got to win in the court of public opinion, too. We do that at the Contrarian, where we talk about these, the cases and issues. And you do it on Midas Touch par excellence. There's nobody who does it better in broadcasting both the crisis for our democracy, but also the pushback that is working. So with voters having repudiated Trump in the referendum on November 4, a landslide win not just for candidates, but for democracy with millions of people, the no hands protests have built from 3 million to 5 million to 7 million peaceful, lawful, massive protests coast to coast. We're seeing all the pistons of the engine of democracy are really starting to work. What a difference from January 20th and that climate of fear and intimidation and the people who weren't sure the lawsuits struck the spark. Independent media has been an important part of that. And look at the latest stampede for Trump. Only one member of Congress, one person in the House voted to stop the release of the Trump Epstein files. Everyone else caved despite months and months of his pressure. So let's keep it up. Court of law, court of public opinion. Let's do it together.

[A]

And the one who voted against the release is Clay Higgins, who rants and raves at the corner of bars about Ghostbusters. The Ghostbusters. You ever heard about these Ghostbusters? Anyway, Everybody go to democracy defenders.org you can take a look there at the active cases and the work that Norm and his team are doing. Ambassador Norm Eisen. We should do this more often.

[B]

Thank you Ben. Invite me anytime. Big fan and great being with you today.

[A]

Great to see everybody hit subscribe. Let's get to 6 million subscribers. Hey Midas Mighty. It's Ben, Brett and Jordy and we just want to thank you for being the backbone of this movement. This year tested us more than ever. But together we proved that pro democracy voices don't just compete, we win. We took on the entire MAGA machine, won a Webby for podcast of the.

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