C (4:41)

Great seeing you. And thank you for having me on again. I appreciate it. So, first of all, I just want your viewers to understand that this denial was not a shock. It was not a surprise. If you actually had read the non prosecution agreement. This non prosecution agreement only dealt with certain claims from a period of 2001 to 2007. Seven. That's it. And it was specifically limited to the Southern District of Florida. So claims basically that arose out of sex trafficking that was occurring in South Florida in the Palm beach county area. At the time and in that one indictment that the federal government had that they did the plea deal for, they had a number of victims up towards of 33 to 35 victims that they were entering into this non prosecution agreement for. In addition to that, the agreement, this awful deal, this sweetheart deal that the federal government gave to a sexual predator, it also gave co conspirator immunity. What do I mean by that? Well, we know now that there were numerous co conspirators involved in the issues that Jeffrey Epstein was perpetrating at the time. Those co conspirators, the number one co conspirator was Ghislaine Maxwell. I mean she was literally his sidekick. And she was the one that was recruiting these girls and bringing them to Jeffrey Epstein. She was not named in the non prosecution agreement. I've got the non prosecution agreement here. I've had it for almost 20 years. And her name appears nowhere in that agreement. The only people that are specifically named as co conspirators in that agreement are were Sarah Kellen, Nadia Marinkova, Adriana Ross and Leslie Grof. And we don't know where those four ladies are today. So those were the co conspirators that were named in that agreement. So the fact that Ghillen Maxwell was making this way offhand argument that she should be entitled to some kind of immunity under this deal, I can completely understand why the district court denied it and again why the Supreme Court said they didn't want to hear it. It makes sense.

B (6:54)

It's pretty wild though that we don't know where those four co conspirators even are. So in addition to Ghislaine, we know where she is. She got moved from Tallahassee to this four star resort. It's a camp ride exactly where you want to be if you're in the prison system. But so we don't know right now where the other Epstein co conspirators are, who sex trafficked these minors. I don't think that's been heard. These four people, who are they? And they just disappeared.

C (7:22)

Spencer, we know that Sarah Kellen got married. She was on this modeling kick to become a model. She was in her 20s and at some point she got married and either moved to New York or somewhere else and changed her name. We also know that Nadia Marcinkova was a pilot. She went back to school and got a pilot's license and became a jet pilot and she's been flying around the world. Now we do know that there was a Twitter profile with her name on it, but she Came from a very small either Russian or Ukrainian country at the time, Romania, something like that. And the story was that Epstein actually brought her out of poverty at 14, 15 years old, paid off her parents and brought her along with him, and then she became a recruiter for him. We then know the other two, Adriana Ross and Leslie Groff, that are named in this coconspirator deal. Nobody's heard from them to this day.

B (8:20)

Talk to us. It's wild. Talk to us about what Ghislaine Maxwell's next move is likely going to be. She had already indicated in her negotiations she's being treated like she's got, like, leverage. That's what such a wild thing in her negotiations with the Republicans in the House Oversight Committee, like James Comey. We've seen her lawyers say, well, she's not going to sit for that deposition until the Supreme Court rules. So the Supreme Court's now made that ruling on that basis. James Comey, who chairs the House Oversight Committee, agreed to extend her deposition, which was supposed to take place, I think, like August 12th. But then the other thing that they threw in there that I think got less attention, and once she finishes her habas petition, which I was always saying back in August, I said, she's going to lose that Supreme Court appeal. I said, but Trump's creating a mountain of things for her to put in a habeas petition, which would be like, in normal times, a criminal defense lawyer's dream come true. I'm just thinking in a past situation where the FBI director, head of the doj, currently the President of the United States, call your case a hoax, in normal times, you would rush and if you're a criminal defendant, bring that to a judge and say, guys, this is the government. They're saying my case is a hoax. Clearly, I need a new trial. So to me, and this is an unfortunate part about it, I'm not giving her lawyer. They know this. This is what they're doing. I'm just letting our audience, not like I'm, like, educating them about what to do. This cons. I just want to let our audience know the movement. This concerns me a lot. Now, I think the district court judges are going to have to say, it's not a hoax. We were here in the Southern District. We know what went down. But that's a big statement that they're going to discount the entire structure of what the government is actually saying right now. That's a wild concept.

C (10:19)

No, and I agree. But here, you know, you've got to kind of make this dividing line, though, even between what Trump is saying, even if we believe what he's saying right now, you've got to take it in context. What I would say as an attorney working on behalf of the government would be, yes, Trump may have said that, but what he's saying is, is that the connection between him and Epstein is a hoax. The connection between him and Maxwell is a hoax. Not that the prosecution of Ghislaine Maxwell is a hoax or not that Jeffrey Epstein and what he did to all of these young girls is a hoax, but just that connection between him, Trump and this awful person, Jeffrey Epstein and Glenn Maxwell. So there's a distinct difference. Also a habeas petition. You know, criminals file these things all the time and they tie up the court systems forever, and they're just complete, you know, throwing spaghetti against a wall to try and see what sticks with a judge to get out of jail. She's got nothing here. She's got absolutely nothing. She went through an entire trial and a jury of her peers found her guilty of sex trafficking and lying, by the way. So you've got a convicted liar. So I don't know what they hope to get out of her in this deposition they've got scheduled of her. But why would you ever listen to a convicted liar? It's worthless.

B (11:40)

You know, this is going to be in another example, though, right, where the government goes in and they go, what Trump really meant. What you have to don't look directly at the exact. What he really meant was X, Y and Z. But ultimately the habeas gets denied. But I want to also talk about some of the developments since you and I last spoke. Right, when you and I last spoke, that was around the time the Wall Street Journal had published the first story, a little bit after the first story about the birthday book. We knew that the estate had the book from Epstein's 50th birthday. And we were wondering, would we ever see the letter from Donald Trump to Epstein and what else was in that book? Well, we've got that book. We saw Trump's signature on it. I mean, he clearly sent it. They then went with forgery. It's not his real signature. Apparently there's a time traveler that went back in time, forged his signature when he was a Democrat, realized he would be a Republican, planted it. As a lawyer, I want you to describe just what a ridiculous kind of argument that would be. If someone tried to make that argument before a jury, what would likely happen. But we saw a lot of other disgusting things in that book. Too. One of them toppled a ambassador to the United States from the uk, Lord Mendelsohn. You know, and, and we saw other gross things. Mar a lago people, business people holding checks, fully depreciated women, checks with Donald Trump's fakes. Like that was like a big check with Donald Trump's signature saying, like fully depreciate a woman. I don't think that one was actually.

C (13:15)

His signature cartoon of him giving balloons and candy to little girls. And then later in the next scene of the cartoon, somebody drawing those girl massaging him and down at his private parts in the middle of his body. I mean, what'd you make of all.

B (13:31)

You make of all of that? But it's consistent with the disgusting and grotesque and criminal stuff that you saw during your legal investigation of him and during your cases, right?

C (13:43)

Yeah. I mean, all of this that I saw in this birthday book. And by the way, you know, we didn't have a copy of this birthday book back at the time we were prosecuting these cases in late 2000. This is new. I mean, this is something that the family, I guess, was holding under wraps and eventually finally released. You know, look, I don't know why Donald Trump doesn't just say, yeah, that was my signature, that was my birthday wish to him. I just didn't have any idea what he was doing at the time. I mean, he could have easily made that kind of an argument and that would fly. But for him to completely deny that it's a signature is just absurd. It would go nowhere in court. A jury would look at that along with other signatures of his over time and be like, that's clearly him. And then this book, this disgusting book and all the people that were involved in this book that was given to EPSTEIN on his 50th birthday, you know, everyone in that book should lose their job. It's just absolutely appalling that this many very reputable, very famous people were aware of Epstein's proclivities and were just joking about it back then. You know, these are 15 year old girls, 15, 16 year old children that were being sexually abused and these people were making fun of it. You know, Mendelssohn lost his job over in the uk, he should have lost his job. Hell, he should probably be in jail. There was a photograph of him with a girl in that book. How old was that girl? Who was that girl? I'd love to find who that was and maybe the US Virgin Islands could prosecute him for what happened there.

B (15:20)

You actually is in connection with the cases you brought on behalf of the survivors, were able and you demanded it. And then you were granted the ability to conduct a site inspection of Epstein's home. And you were able to see things like secret staircases to the bathrooms and other kind of just chilling and, and just horrific things there. Can you describe that process and just why did you request a site inspection from the court? And what did that look like? Right. When did it take place? Around.

C (15:56)

Yeah. So back during the original litigation, and this was right after the Sweetheart deal was entered, we filed suit on behalf of one of the young victims and I petitioned the court to be able to inspect the property where Epstein's home was in Palm beach county, on the island of Palm Beach. And we did that because my client could easily describe the interior of that home. And why would a 15 year old girl know exactly what the inside of Jeffrey Epstein's home looked like if she hadn't been there? Because they were denying, by the way, that any of these girls were telling the truth. They were saying that all these girls were just lying and out for money at the time. So I requested a site inspection, the judge granted it and, and when we got on site, I had one videographer with me. And this home was just strange. Anywhere you would walk in the home, you'd see black and white pictures, some color pictures, some artwork of girls, women, half dressed, half naked. When you got into the home, there was a desk right there at the entrance way of the home. And that's generally where his young girl would sit and take messages because there was a phone there as well with a message pad. And that had been confiscated by police. You'd walk around through the living room into the kitchen area and it off of the kitchen there was this small door that almost looked like a closet or a kitchen cabinet kind of door. When you open that door, there was a secret staircase that would wind up and end up directly inside of Jeffrey Epstein's bedroom. And a lot of the young girls had described that's exactly how they were ushered upstairs. In the bedroom off to the right, there was a massage shower room. So this room had a steam shower in it and it had a pre set up massage table in it that a lot of the girls had described because they had been brought back to that room and the door had been locked behind them by whoever had escorted them up so that they couldn't get out. Then off to the left he had a bathroom and it was just a regular full bath. But the weird thing about that bathroom, he had a dental chair in there. We could never figure out why. I mean, maybe he was just into good dental hygiene and had a private dentist, but he had a full dental chair set up in this weird bathroom, this separate bathroom with all the utensils and things that you would normally see at a dentist's office. So there were a whole bunch. Oh, and the decor, it was just like an awful 80s art deco kind of decor in the home. It was. It was odd, to say the least.

B (18:38)

Also, before the sweetheart deal, I don't think this has gotten enough mention, there were checks being sent to the local police department. Can you describe that?

C (18:47)

Yeah, yeah, we asked about that. I asked about that of the chief of police. They eventually returned the check once the lawsuit was filed. But there was a $10,000 check that was written to the local police department just before, like, weeks and months before the search warrant had been issued on his home. And it was issued under the guise of them updating the police gym there on Palm Beach Island. Now, thankfully, you know, that went nowhere. And I got to say, Chief Ryder and the lead investigator that was involved in this case, who is now deceased, they were just adamant about the prosecution in this case. They were so upset when the state attorney here didn't pick up the case. So obviously that $10,000 donation given by Epstein didn't buy him any or curry him any favor with the police department. But nonetheless, you could see clearly what he was trying to do.

B (19:38)

Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick described Jeffrey Epstein as the greatest blackmailer of all time. He said he was asked by the New York Post, a right wing reporter, Miranda Devine, said, you know, how do you think he got all of his money? And Lutnick said, you know, he must have been blackmailing all of these rich guys. I mean, he said it like that. He must have been blackmailing all of these rich guys. You show up, he came up to me and he said, you like massages?

C (20:03)

You like.

B (20:04)

You know, he said, And I said, I gotta get the hell out of here. And then Lutnick goes, anybody who saw this guy for one second, that's my Lutnick impression, knew that I was a. Knew the guy was a creep. He goes, I was one and done. I saw the guy, I got the hell out of there. I told my wife, never again. Never again. That's. That's who he was. You either knew that and were friends with him, right? And. But you. Because that's what you wanted to get into, or you weren't. But, like, if you were around this guy, you knew right away that this guy was somebody who was sexually assaulting underage girls. He, he, he, he made. That was part of who the guy was, right?

C (20:46)

Yeah, that was essentially his entire Persona. I mean, listen, that's where he got all of this favor curried with all of these rich and very wealthy and very powerful men within the world, whether it be in science, whether it be in corporate industry, whether it be in politics. You know, he had the same approach. Hey, you know, you like massages? I got beautiful young girls that can give you massages. And you either understood that this was a creepy kind of behavior and got away, or you just kind of leaned into it. But the reality is, I think Lutnick's right, because we know that the U.S. virgin Islands in his home there, that the U.S. attorney's office seized, you know, 30 gigabytes of data and information in that home, and then they also seized videotapes in the Manhattan mansion. That's why I have been in every interview I do, whether it's with you or MSNBC or Fox News or Newsmax, whoever I'm on, I'm always pushing to say release the information, release the videotapes that they have, because I want to see, and the world needs to see who's on these videotapes, who was utilizing Epstein in order to be able to abuse young girls. That's what the world needs to see. You know, blur out the girls faces to protect the victims. But let's see the faces of these perpetrators. Let it be known.

B (22:12)

And that's where rhetorically people may be focused on the wrong thing when they say files or list what really exists and what all of the rich, powerful people in our audience can just think through who they think these people are, are, are probably most worried about are the videos, are the photos, are the, are the phone calls and the wiretaps and all of that. Because that would reveal the, this, you would make a list based on what all of those things are. But here we are, Spencer. We are October 6th recording this. You and I were speaking several months back and nothing yet. And right now, where Trump and all of them have gone to is, we're not releasing anything. We're done. We turned over all the old files, move on to another issue. This is a dead issue to us. And then you have some people in the House Oversight Committee, mostly Democrats, but you got to give credit to a small group of Republicans who have joined with them and signed the discharge petition, led by Kentucky Republican Thomas Massie and Democratic Congressmember Ro Khanna, are trying to just get these things out. But you believe the big issue here, it's the videos, the photos.

C (23:33)

Absolutely.

B (23:34)

Talk through that with us.

C (23:35)

Absolutely. So during the walkthrough inspection that I did of the property in Palm beach, we could see during the inspection that there were video camera mounts that were up in some of the rooms, including in some of the bedrooms and the guest rooms and other areas of the home. And those videotape mounts, the cameras were gone. And we know now from the photographs that police took during the site or the search warrant inspection that there were computer monitors that had little post its on them saying, don't take this well, where's the cpu? The CPU was gone. The computer unit that had all the data and information and video on it was gone. We know through one of my clients that there was a huge surveillance room in the Manhattan mansion because she saw it, she walked by it, the door's open, she sees in there, and there are multiple monitors showing cameras throughout the interior of the home and people that were inside of the home. We also know that when he was under threat of prosecution, he takes all this information, secrets it away, and likely took it off site to the US Virgin Islands, thinking it was going to be safe there. But then eventually the FBI confiscated all of that. So we know the FBI has it. We got to assume that they watched it and that some agent at the FBI or multiple agents have created internal memos that test that show who's on these videos. And that's what we need. We need the internal memos from the FBI showing who they've identified appear on the videos. And we need to see the videotapes, what's on these videotapes and what are they hiding? Show the world the tapes, Spencer.

B (25:24)

Before we go also, I think that one of the powerful things that our audience and listeners connected with on our last interview is oftentimes when Epstein is now discussed. It's done through the lens of politics. Here's what one side's saying, here's what another side saying. And once things to me get into a political abstraction, to me that abstracts from the work that you did and more significantly, the work that the survivors did to be able to get their message out, to fight these things and what the survivors have been through in all of this. And it distracts from the facts. And so before we go, I just want you to again just talk to our listeners and viewers about who Jeffrey Epstein was, who Ghislaine Maxwell was, how bad these people are and their co conspirators were, and why. Just any claim that this was somehow, you know, some currently, like, a political thing to get. It is. Is so offensive to the people you represented. The surviv.

C (26:39)

Yeah, it's. It is. And it's sad that it's turned into that, but it really is, unfortunately, the. What we call the Trump effect. As soon as they brought up his name, it turned into this political issue, which it never was. At the inception of our case, this was strictly about a rich, powerful pedophile that was sexually abusing and sexually trafficking children. That's what this case was always about. You know, my clients here in Palm beach were as young as age, 15 years old, were convinced to come out to the house under false premises by some of these younger girls that were recruiters by telling these young girls, you're beautiful. Well, you know, I work for a guy that lives on the island who knows Les Wexner, who owns Victoria's Secret. He can get you into modeling. He's friends with John Casablanca. He knows Jean Luc Brunel. He's a modeling agent from France. You know, come to the house, show him some pictures. Let us take some pictures, and then we can get you work in the modeling industry. They then come out to the house under this false premise, and it turns into this weird. Locked in a room, you got to give some old guy a naked massage until he plays with himself and finishes while he touches you and tries to use vibrators on you, massage oils on you again while you're locked in this massage room with nowhere to go. Mind you, back then, in 2006, there are no Uber cars. There's yellow taxis, which is how he had gotten them out to the house to begin with. They're on an island where they don't know anybody. They don't know anyone in the home. Once they're out there, they're locked in a massage room, and this old man is just sexually abusing them. You know, and in addition to that, we've got evidence that Ghislaine Maxwell would literally be driving her cars down the street with the driver and tell the driver to pull over because she saw young girls walking by in little Catholic school outfits and would stop them and would try to convince them to come back to the house. They were hunters. That's exactly how we always describe them. In the original cases, they were hunting young girls so that they could sexually abuse them. And then they were taking those young girls and they were trading them out to other wealthy, powerful men to be able to have sex with them. This was the most disgusting network of wealth power, influence, sex that I'd ever seen in doing this for now almost 30 years of litigation. It was never, ever political. This was about abuse. It was about underage sex, abuse of young girls and trafficking these young girls. The fact that Trump's name came up was a happenstance in the original case. That was all it was along with other names, by the way, that came up during litigation. So listen, everyone needs to know this information is important to the world so that something like this can never happen again.

B (29:51)

Spencer Kuven, Gold Law One of the representing the first survivors of Epstein brought the first cases involving the survivors of Epstein and a great lawyer that everybody knows not just in the Palm beach area but across the country for your work representing survivors and and your legal work in general. Thanks Spencer for everything.

C (30:13)

Thanks for having me everybody.

B (30:15)

Hit subscribe let's get to 6 million subscribers. Thanks for watching. Be sure to add the Midas Touch podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast for new updates every single day.

C (30:30)

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk.

B (30:40)

We have no stores. That means no small talk, crazy weather we're having.

C (30:46)

No, it's not. It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream.

B (30:50)

Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.

A (30:54)

Of $45 for 3 month plan, $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.