Anand Giridharadas (3:47)

Yes, I love it. I love what you guys are doing. I think you are role modeling a spirit of fighting that has essentially become absent from the political left in this country. And you are role modeling it back to life. And I so appreciate that. It's funny you talk about that book Winners Take all, which is my third book. I was joking the other day to a friend of mine, but I was only half joking. I was like, do I have the least successful career of all time? Because my first book, four books, all warnings. First book about India, but the message was social change, even progress can be psychologically destabilizing to people in ways that we got to pay attention to. My second book was a warning about rising white resentment as the kind of dominant political force in the country. 2014. Third book was warning the billionaire to try to grab all the wealth and power by convincing us they're heroes. And the fourth book was about how the left was growing too insular and not devoted enough to persuasion. And so I sometimes reflect on the fact that I wrote four books offering four warnings and none of them were heeded by anybody. So, you know, but here I am. Here I am. Hope springs eternal.

Ben (4:56)

Well, I'LL say this. The warnings were heeded by us at the Midas Fetch network. And intellectually they formed part of the intellectual infrastructure in terms of what we felt that we needed to build. Especially your latest book where you say that liberals were getting too ins. Insular. Progressives or whoever's not the right wing fascist at this point, whatever you want.

Anand Giridharadas (5:22)

To call them, we're getting a democracy movement.

Ben (5:24)

Exact. Exactly. I often get asked that. But we were building what we thought could be that infrastructure brick by brick. So you've laid the intellectual foundation. Right. So as JD Vance was looking to what's that guy's name? Garvis or Jarvis or who's. Who is his right wing guy? You know, we were looking to people like you who've been informing us. And so what, what do you think though? Right now, here we are, 2025, the state of journalism as you see it.

Anand Giridharadas (5:55)

Well, I mean, just to go back to your billionaire thing and I'll come to the journalism thing, you know, 2018, long time ago in the kind of dog year reality that we're, that we're living in right now, when I wrote a book Critiquing Billionaires. And by the way, I wasn't just critiquing right wing billionaires in that book. In fact, I focused on billionaires, who you and I might be more sympathetic to, to illustrate the point that even the good billionaires are problematic, Right? Even the ones who have the same policy goals as you are problematic because to have that much money is to have a power over other, a level of power over other people that is inconsistent with the democracy we care about. And when I wrote that in 2018, so many Democrats, people on the left were like, yeah, I get inequality's kind of sad. But like, why are you going after, you know, Bill Gates is doing some good work and you know, Jeff Bezos says he wants to give some money away and get really buff and you know, he needs some money to take Lauren Sanchez on dates or whatever. Like people were just like, couldn't understand. Yes, go after the really bad ones. But why? What is the problem with kind of billionaires in general? I got criticized for using the word oligarchs on MSNBC back then. And fast forward to now, where I think, as you say, the mask has come off. And what has become, I think, really, really clear to people is the thing that was very difficult to show back then, convince people of back then, which is that they don't just rule through evil, because that wouldn't be very effective because there's not that many of them. They rule by cultivating this aura of heroism that lots of people buy into and they need lots of people buy into to buy into to have actually any power. Right? Because in France, I was just in France on a, on a work trip a few months ago. I, at a, at a discussion about philanthropy, I asked the room, france has billionaires. Do any of your billionaires shaped education policy in your country? And the entire room started laughing. I was actually asking a serious question. They treated it like I'd asked if bananas shape education policy in their country. They didn't understand why. They didn't understand the connection between having been successful in business and being successful in policy. I have a friend who's a venture capitalist in China. He once said to me, and he's a citizen of the United States also, I think dual citizen. He said. He said, I'm a rich guy in China and I'm a rich guy in the United States. The difference is in my native country of China, no one thinks my views about public policy matter. Whereas when I fly to America, where my second country, not even where I was born, being a rich guy, my thoughts about who should be in power or what policy suddenly become very, very important. Right? So that notion of wealth buying, the right to shape what this society is like, that is what oligarchy is. And I'm happy we're living in a time in which I think more and more people get it. And it's very related to the media point because we're in a world in which the infrastructure of reality is owned by more, more and more by oligarchs. And we've seen the oligarchs to be spineless people in general who are so scared of Donald Trump. You think Jeff Bezos would not give Lauren Sanchez to Donald Trump if that was the tribute that Donald Trump demanded? There is nothing they won't do to cultivate Donald Trump. So we're living in a world in which the ability to even just find out what is happening is mediated by a bunch of fraidy cat oligarchs who should be self confident and brave, because that's the whole point of having that much money, but instead are the biggest pansies you could find.

Ben (10:06)

Someone asked this question and on substacks, I'll, I'll, I'll curse. But someone says, why are they scared? What are these billionaires actually scared about? And this is where I'll curse. You know, you've heard the expression fuck you, money, you know, and that's what the Billionaires like to say that they have. That they've got FU money. But in theory, these people who say they have FU money are scared of their own shadow and have given away all of their power for the appearance of Tower to the fake billionaire who's become a real billionaire over them in a Trump. So what, you've studied them. What's their worry? What's their fear? As far as I know, I'm only gonna live once. I rather live my life courageously than die a thousand embarrassing deaths every single day the way some of they do. So what's your assessment of that?

Anand Giridharadas (11:04)

It's a great point. First of all, I share that view with you. If I ever had that much money, I don't know that I would be buying yachts first or 50 houses first. I can assure you the first thing I would do if I had that much money, I mean, I'm kind of already doing it, so maybe it's not a big change, but the first thing I would do would be to shed any fear of anybody. That's if that is not the point of that money, I don't know what the point of that money is if it is not. If it is not to liberate yourself from living under the imagined thumb of anybody else. What are, what is the money doing for you? So that's kind of point number one in terms of what they are actually afraid of. It's actually very revealing. So part of why I would argue that nobody should even have a billion dollars is because if you understand how markets work and how competitive markets work in a free society, it's actually quite hard to make that kind of money. And the reason it's hard to make that kind of money is if you're onto something. We all learn this. If you study econ 101, you're onto something that's kind of a good thing to be onto, right? You create a substack. People like it, people notice that it's growing. Well, you know what happens? A lot of other people start doing it, right? If you got, if you're selling umbrellas on the street in a rainstorm, unfortunately you don't get to go it alone. People will notice the next time the rainstorm comes, they're going to be 10 times more rainstorm umbrella entrepreneurs. And that drives prices down and makes it really hard for one person to clean up everything. So if you end up with $300 billion in a supposed market economy, I'm oversimplifying a lot here, but I think this is important. If you end up with like $300 billion or even $10 billion. Probably. You didn't just show up in a competitive marketplace and have something really good that you were offering because that kind of doesn't explain why that wasn't cut into by competitors. Probably you did some things to limit the entry of other competitors into that arena. To have monopolies on something, to monopolize, let's say, government contracts that, you know, fed you and not others. And if you look at all these guys and you actually break into what they have done, it's all based on stepping on other people, right? And so what they are afraid of is the fact that they actually cannot sustain that level of wealth without affirmative action. For billionaires, right? They need like that fortune is not based on their product being awesome, right? It's not that Fortune is based 90 plus percent of the time in some kind of predatory or aggressive behavior that they need not to be regulated, not to be investigated, not to be, you know, unionized against. So they are in a way, very, very vulnerable and dependent because their entire structure depends on kind of special perks and special privileges. So in a way, they're not masters of the universe. In a way, they are right to be afraid because they're. What they're really afraid of is competing on an open market.

Ben (14:31)

And that's why their priorities are often a form of socialism, but just for the billionaires, where the billionaires get the benefits and have, you know, and then what that actually is called is not socialism for billionaires. It's actually called oligarchy. And then you start looking like what you have in Russia and in Soviet states of the past, and we used to look at that in a certain way. And what your thesis there is, you know, also perfectly explains why they do the most illogical things vis a vis the market. We all know that tariffs would result in the outcomes we're seeing now. We all know that these threats against our allies would result in the markets tanking. We all have seen in the history where no, America wasn't economically most successful, as Donald Trump likes to believe, during the years of the Great Depression. We remember those years as the Great Depression for a reason. So if you're looking for some sort of pseudo capitalist explanation of why they're supporting this, it's actually because these billionaires are not capitalists. They are oligarchs. And they actually want to undermine the whole system. And if we the people suffer, that's not a bug. That's actually their design. As long as their proximity to Power is preserved, which for them, they'll buy into all this bullshit about the tariffs here and this, and it's going to make us great. And gold cards, they're like. And they can see the markets tanking. And for them it's like, are we just going to be close to power? It's fascinating, but I think it explains everything.

Anand Giridharadas (16:19)

No, I'll respond to that in the following way. Taking us a little bit outside of this country, because it's sometimes helpful to look from the inside out. My family's from India. I was born in this country in the United States, but my parents immigrated here when I was growing up. You go to India as a child, I noticed certain cultural differences in the way people speak about life, opportunity, job, businesses. And in India there's this thing and it's still there, but certainly even more there back in the 80s where everything was about connection. So if you, if you did anything successful, the assumption is, well, who'd you know? Or how did, did you know somebody? Or how, how, how did, how did, how did they, how did you get that? Or how did. Right. So it's very sad thing in a, in a highly bureaucratic. It was then kind of in a, in a socialist phase, now it's in a capitalist phase. But it's, it's, it's sort of the same. The assumption was if you've, if you've made money, come on, you, you had to, you had to know somebody. I mean, right? And that's so corrosive to have a whole society where people look at success that way. That's what we're becoming, right? We're becoming a society where if you're like a 25 year old gen Z kid with a brilliant idea in Bushwick, New York, it's gonna be pretty hard for you to get the capital, get the stability, get the Runway to do it. But if you are already a rich guy who already has those connections, um, you're in. I. What I don't think most Americans realize is that puts you into the territory of being a completely different society. A society when, as when my childhood in India, where people would kind of assume success was evidence of connections, is a fundamentally different kind of society. You don't want to become that kind of society.

Jordi (18:09)

Here's a question, if I could chime in.

Anand Giridharadas (18:12)

I think what Ben was about to.

Jordi (18:13)

Say also that if you want to subscribe to all of our substacks here, that you could follow. There's a follow button right up here, takes two seconds. You could quickly subscribe to all of our substacks. Make sure you're getting all the information. So the thing I wanted to, you know, ask you about on this topic is I think the thing that has maybe surprised me the most over the past year or two is how willing the kind of general public is to go along with whatever the billionaires are saying. I feel like there used to at least be a little bit of kind of, whether you want to call it class solidarity or something else, where we view these billionaire people as assholes, for lack of a better word. But now it's like Elon Musk says something and you just have all these people, yes, Mr. Musk, yes, I'm with you. And it's been just disheartening to see, like, really, you're going to do the bidding of this guy who doesn't give a crap about you. I'm just curious to get your thoughts on that. Do you think that's why they view with such importance to control the kind of flow of information why Elon Musk bought a platform like Twitter, overvalued and then sunk the valuation? Why Bezos bought the Washington Post? Like, are those things all linked? And I guess, sorry, I'm throwing a lot of various things to do, but is that also tied to them appearing on these Joe Rogan podcasts and kind of laundering their image? You got Zuckerberg there with his new weird haircut and acting like a bro and talking about boxing and all this stuff. And what's, what's your take on. On kind of all that? I know it's a lot.

Anand Giridharadas (19:46)

I think. I think there's. There's two levels of it. One very sinister and one less sinister. So. So the sinister thing is, is a story you know very well the last several decades. You know, the books like Dark Money by Jane Mayer, Evil Geniuses by Kurt Anderson, really trace as well. There was a group of, frankly a very small number of people, families on the right that really got organized. How memo is part of this story. Got organized, felt they were losing the country in the 70s, got organized, grab power, and they built a media infrastructure to go with it and kind of lubricate their. Their machinery of government, their takeover of that machinery. And you know that that has been a very successful campaign. And unlike a lot of folks on the left, with the exception of you all for sure, they understood the importance of media as part of that whole game. It wasn't an afterthought. It wasn't like a nice to have. It was essential to the work of building power I think there's a less sinister explanation which is worth thinking about, which is, I think deep in its bones, the United States is built different, right? I think we're not France. You know, I lived in France also as a child. I still go there every now and then. I think United States is not Sweden. You know, I don't think it's a collectivist as I like China. So I don't think it's just the takeover of the right. I think deep because of how this country was settled, lots of different things deep in the American bloodstream. This is the country settled by non consensually and consensually by very hardy people who survived very tough journeys. Often people who came by choice were like the one brother in their Italian family who left when seven people were like, this village seems fine to me. Right? And so over time, and then, and then we had all this conflict, you know, over time, this country, and there's some like, fascinating genetic stuff about this. This country disproportionately attracted and, and, and the people who kind of survived the passage of this country were hearty, tough people who often had a spirit of individualism that was different, meaningfully different from European countries. And that's fine. I think what a lot of folks who feel that way and feel, you know, some reverence for Elon Musk because they see it therefore as the kind of, the kind of peak of that individualistic striving is that someone like Elon Musk, the way they operate actually gets in the way of your individual freedom. And I think a lot of Americans don't, haven't made that connection. They think of Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg or whatever. Yeah, maybe it's a little too much. Yeah, maybe they spend too much. But I can be them. They're a role model. They're, you know, in the lane far ahead of me and I'm trying to catch up. And actually the better way to understand those people is like they're your roadblock, right? They're, they're. Their success depends on you not realizing your dreams. Their success depends on you not getting that degree. You not having the freedom of healthcare you can count on to therefore sketch an idea on the back of a napkin and quit your job and go realize it. Their wealth and power is not some advanced team for your success. It is the opposition to your success. And that idea, I think has been very hard to sell Americans on, not only because of this recent right wing takeover, but, but because of this very deep thing in the Americas. And sorry to dwell on it, but I think this gives the pro democracy movement some marching orders. This is a big organizing challenge that goes beyond beating the right. I think we have to educate the mass of American people about individualism and community and the ways in which just leaving the wolves free endangers all the lambs. And I think that's a really exciting media challenge for folks like us. And it sort of involves us to just say it's not just a right that needs to be overthrown. We have persuasion work to do among our people.

Ben (24:02)

That leads us to, I think, the final question that I see so many people asking, which is the natural progression of a discussion like this, and I'll call it the $19 trillion question, because with the $.5 trillion in tax cuts that Trump is going to be giving to the billionaires, it looks like our deficit will increase at least $19 trillion over the next 10 years. But that $19 trillion question is, what do we do about it? Well, here we're taking your thesis and we're trying to put it into action by creating a network like the Midas Touch network, where we talk about these ideas, where we rally people, we let people know where the rug pull is happening, which we think is an important service. We can break it down with our respective backgrounds. Me as a former litigator, Brett as a former digital rapid responder, Jordi as a marketer, and then our great hosts who have all of these backgrounds, us also bringing your voice to our audience and making sure that we let people know about your substack, the Inc. And your works as well, so people get acclimated with it. But, but tell us all what, what you think is what do we do? I guess is, is that 19 trillion dollar question, what do we do?

Anand Giridharadas (25:23)

You know, I'm such a junkie for these substack lives. I was just on another one where I was asking the questions of the great Anat Shankar Osorio. If you guys haven't had her on your shift, she's absolutely incredible. As you know, she. I mean, there's so many things I could say to answer that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna focus on one idea that, that she really gave us a few, a few weeks ago and we were talking about it more today. That really blew my mind and maybe helpful for your, for your listeners. I think a lot of us have been feeling despair, powerless, kind of aghast at obviously what the right is doing, but I think profoundly undefended by Democratic leaders. I think that's as Significant an emotion in many people's hearts right now. I think it's why a lot of people come to you all. And what Anant helped me reframe, she said, by all means, keep making the phone calls to Capitol Hill, keep marching, keep yelling at the Republicans, keep telling Hakeem Jeffries to grow, aspired. All of that. Yes, keep doing it. But she said the most important form of activism people can do right now is not up there to the very powerful people. It is actually laterally in their community to solve the first problem of this moment, which is that most people think no one else feels the way they do. Most people think they're the one on the block who's afraid of what Elon Musk's doing. But everybody else is going about their life. And if you. I live in a very progressive place in Brooklyn, New York. If I were to walk down the street and just judge by the atmosphere, it would appear that no one really cares that we're in an existential crisis for the Republic. It certainly looks like no one cares. There's no signs, there's no hats, there's no clothes. Right. I understand people are living their life, but her reframe was so powerful to me. The first thing you can do, and we need symbolism. I think you all have the scale to maybe help people coordinate that. She suggested the slogan, Free America. We need to free America from all these people, Free America from these wannabe tyrants. But we also want an America that is free. So it's the end state as well as the action. We need hats, we need symbols, we need colors, we need. You know, she suggested a badge that says, I'm in the know. And people then ask you in the know about what? And then gives you a chance to. Right. We need to kind of the. The. She called it social proof. But this level of activism, I think, is neglected in a lot of conversations. Your first rung of activism is coalescing. All the people around you actually feel the same way you do. But. But there's a kind of first mover problem, right? And everybody's, like, sitting, watching your thing on their stream on their couch by themselves, not realizing that the guy next to them is also watching your stream at the same time. And it is a very simple, doable form of activism, not just to try to depose these high leaders who seem untouchable, but to try to create social proof in your community that a lot of people feel this way. Let's see each other, let's know each other are there. And then you go from there. That feels like wonderfully doable and incredibly important and foundational to the work ahead.

Ben (28:44)

Well, that makes me feel mighty. Wow. The might is mighty. What do you all think about that? And I'm here just so everybody knows. Nosed. I'm taking a ton of notes right now. I take a ton of notes. So when I do these speaking series, you know, it's, it's a class for me where we do a lot of learning and reflecting here about how we could be better with our media network and what we need to focus on and having on and in is a perfect way to, you know, for us to learn. And I think we all have to be open to learning more, doing better, being better, homing in on our message and getting it out to as many people as possible. Anand, I want to thank you so much for joining us today. I want to remind everybody about your substack, the Inc. You should all check it out. If you enjoyed this conversation, you're going to enjoy what he's writing over there on a daily basis. Remember to subscribe here as well. You see it right up there at the top to the Midas Touch substack. We're going to keep on growing. We're going to keep on having this speaking series. Hey, thank you so much for joining us.

Anand Giridharadas (29:49)

Thank you so much and thank you guys for. I think you are, you're doing spinal development for the nation, so. And it's going to take a lot of spine going forward. So I really, really appreciate so much what you all are doing. I think in the long run of history, it's going to be viewed as very, very important. So thank you.

Ben (30:08)

We appreciate it. Day by day. Generational. We're in this together. Thank you everybody. Keep checking in the substack for, for new and updated content and we'll be back with your normally scheduled programming here on the Midas Touch Network. Thanks everybody.

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