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- [00:01]
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- [01:30]
Senator Bernie Sanders
It'S not just that Trump is a pathological liar. Hey, Mr. Trump, maybe it's a golden age for you and your friends. You're making billions. It ain't a golden age for us.
- [01:39]
Interviewer Ben
Let's welcome Senator Bernie Sanders. Senator, you've been traveling the country. You've been speaking in red states and in purple states and across political divides. You've just been speaking to people. What we're seeing right now, though, it seems that people are just pissed off at the direction of this company, this country, which is being run like an oligarchical company. And we're seeing people leaving MAGA right now in a rupture in the base. What do you make of what's taking place right now?
- [02:08]
Senator Bernie Sanders
Look, we are living in an unprecedented moment in American history, maybe going back to the 1860s and the Civil War. And what you're seeing is an economy in which the people on top have never, ever had it so good. The musks of the world making money hand over fist. Meanwhile, 60% of our people live in paycheck to paycheck. They can't afford health care. They can't afford child care. They can't afford housing. Major housing crisis. The political system is broken. It's corrupt. Everybody knows that big money billionaires have enormous influence in the Republican Party and in the Democratic Party as well. So people are kind of at their wits end right now in terms of where we are nationally.
- [02:58]
Interviewer Ben
You've told me before that he said, ben, sometimes the most important issues to people are the issues that are being discussed least in the media.
- [03:07]
Senator Bernie Sanders
Thank you for remembering that. That is exactly what I believe.
- [03:11]
Interviewer Ben
It stuck with me and I use it in all of my podcasts and all of my. Whenever I'm out there speaking and think. One of the issues that people are focused on out there, and I see it in your town Halls, is AI. You just put out a sweeping report how AI and automation could destroy nearly 100 million US jobs in a decade. I mean, we're seeing it right now, even in the jobs reports that it's being used both actually and as a pretext by corporations to fire people and get rid of people. So talk to us about this report. And again, I think this is the issue that we see animating city councils. And you know, we see people out there all the time, but it's not getting any attention on the news.
- [03:52]
Senator Bernie Sanders
Got it. And it's a huge. Ben, this is a huge, huge issue. You know, I don't know if you saw the movie. Don't look up. Did you see that movie?
- [04:05]
Interviewer Ben
I saw that movie, yeah.
- [04:06]
Senator Bernie Sanders
It's about a meteor coming down to Earth. It's going to destroy Earth. But nobody politicians, nobody wants to talk about it. Well, I don't think AI is in robotics are going to destroy Earth, but it is going to have a profound, profound impact on every aspect of our lives. And what one of the things the report pointed out, and it's not just me, the report pointed out that AI and robotics will have a huge impact in elimination of millions and millions of jobs. And that's not Bernie Sanders talking. Elon Musk just said recently, and I quote, AI and robots will replace all jobs. Working will be optional. End quote. Dario Amodai, the CEO of Anthropic, big AI company, warned that AI could lead to the loss of half of all entry level white collar jobs. Bill Gates talked about massive job dislocation. So the people who know the most about it are already telling us that we're going to see the displacement of tens and tens of millions of jobs in the coming decades. Are we prepared to deal with that? So that is issue number one. Issue number two related to that is you got guys like Elon Musk again, Jeff Bezos, one of the wealthiest guys in the world. People like Larry Ellison, people like Mark Zuckerman. These are the wealthiest people on Earth, pouring hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars into research and development for AI and robotics. You tell me why they're doing that. You think they're doing that because they're thinking, oh man, this is going to be something that will improve life for working people, for low income people. That's why we are investing many hundreds of billions of dollars. Ben, you think that's their motive?
- [06:10]
Interviewer Ben
I don't think that's their motive. I think their motive is how are they going to get richer.
- [06:13]
Senator Bernie Sanders
I think you're right. Richer and more powerful. They already, you know, at a time of massive income and wealth inequality, Musk himself owns more wealth than the bottom 52% of American households. These guys will become phenomenally richer and more powerful. So what does it mean? I mean, let's think about it for a second. Elon Musk says he wants Tesla to produce millions of robots. Okay, so what does that mean? What implication does that have for our country and for the world? And not just Musk, Tesla, other guys, obviously Zuckerberg and others are also putting huge amounts of money. What does that mean? It means if you're a factory worker out there, you're going to have a job in 10 years. Probably not. Or a college graduate working, wanting to work your way up the system, starting at an entry level job, that job is going to be there for you. Probably not. Again, Musk is talking about the end of work. The belief that, that AI and robotics could essentially do everything that human beings are doing right now. Who benefits from that? Who makes the decisions? These are profound, profound decisions. They're going to impact our country and the world. Who is making those decisions? Where are those issues being discussed? What is the planning for the future? If you're a factory worker or a young person can't get a job, how do you survive? How do you have any healthcare? Where do you live? Are these issues that anyone is talking about?
- [08:02]
Interviewer Ben
Well, you know, when the people are talking about it, the media is not talking about it. The people being. When I watch your rallies, the fight, the Oligarch tour, and I've seen almost all of them and we stream them here on the Midas Touch network. Inevitably, the first two questions you always get, one's on healthcare and one is on AI and the person who's. And both the people are pouring their hearts out about these topics and it's always just striking. To me that I never see it ever covered on the news. And people are, you know, and it's all different ages, especially young people are very worried. And they got, I've called this Trump presidency, the rug pull presidency, because he's made all of these promises, then pulled the rug out from under him. And they're just saying my future looks gone because of, you know, because of AI. And we're seeing people who've been working in factories saying my future, the retirement I planned on is gone right now. So, so the people are talking about it.
- [09:02]
Senator Bernie Sanders
Senator, thanks for watching the rallies. And you're, you're exactly right. I, I first perceived this when I was in Davenport, Iowa. You know, we have really big rallies, tens of thousands of people. The one in Dava wasn't that big, maybe 2500 people. So you're able to kind of communicate a little bit with the people in the very large room. And I never will forget, I said, all right, look, this AI stuff is coming and I want to ask, there's a working class audience and I want to ask you here in Davenport, I.
- [09:32]
Interviewer Ben
Want.
- [09:36]
Senator Bernie Sanders
You think it's going to benefit the working class in this country? Tell me, raise your hand, tell me how many people think it will. In a room of well over 2,000 people, two hands went up that they thought it would be possible for working class people. And from, you know, I went on from there, I think there is massive apprehension. And you're right, it's not being discussed in the media. And by the way, this is why on Tuesday night, this Tuesday, here, Georgetown, I've invited Geoffrey Hinton. And Hinton, as you may know, is a Nobel prize winner in physics in 2024, is sometimes referred to as the godfather of AI, a brilliant guy who laid the groundwork for where we are today. But since then, he has expressed serious concerns about where AI might take us. Seems positive, but is worried about some of the negative impacts. So I think working class people, young people are concerned. And these are issues that need a whole lot of discussion.
- [10:41]
Interviewer Ben
And right now there seems to be at the administration regime level, zero discussion about the consequences that people are worried about. And all the focus on how the billionaires can just have unfettered, unrestrained development, you know, and just pushing forward without this consideration. And we see this also in the conversation of the data centers, like talk about animating communities put in these data centers that what I've heard as much as like two Atlantas of energy consuming energy, you know, in these areas and in these towns, sometimes even more and people are like first off, in addition to the electricity prices, you know, its impact on the grid, its impact on the environment, people hate these things.
- [11:34]
Senator Bernie Sanders
Water, big deal on water. They use a lot of water, right?
- [11:37]
Interviewer Ben
Talk to us about that because there's that aspect of it too. There's the job replacement and then there's the, there's environmental impact.
- [11:45]
Senator Bernie Sanders
A lot of young people deeply concerned about it. This thing consumes an unbelievable amount of electricity and water. And as you've indicated, what we are seeing in communities all over this country is saying excuse us, we don't want to see a significant increase in our electric bills in order to pay for some huge data center which will probably result in AI taking our jobs. Not quite a win win for ordinary people. So that's another aspect, the environmental aspect. There's another aspect to it is that as AI improves and we're already seeing this, you're going to see on the Internet people giving speeches, making statements who are not, that is not real. I've already had that experience. I think somebody told me that I was out on the Internet selling some insurance policy or something. Wasn't me. So AI will have the capability of having somebody perfectly sound like that person and it's not that person. What does that mean for politics in this country? If you have somebody up there who's not that person saying things? That is a huge issue. And then you get to issues which really again go very, very deep is that we are living in a society today and Covid exacerbated that where there's a lot of loneliness, there's a lot of emotional anxiety and a lot of people, especially younger people, are turning to AI for companionship. So what are the long term implications if my best friend is an AI? You tell me, what are the implications of that for humanity and for our well being?
- [13:47]
Interviewer Ben
You know Senator, one of the things that you I think are going to be discussing with Dr. Hinton and you lay out in your 25 page report which everybody should read. I mean it's called the big tech oligarchs war against workers. AI and automation could destroy nearly 100 million US jobs in a decade, is not just to diagnose the problem, which is massive, but also to offer solutions or at least start to think about how we, how we deal with it, how we can recognize that this technology is coming and it's here, but how do we do it in a way that benefits workers and how do we create the right balance? And I think that that's an important conversation to have Balance and figuring out the way we deal with these things. And so you lay out, you know, a bunch of. A bunch of options, you know, requiring corporations to share profits when it, you know, pushes these AIs a 32 hour work week. You know, could there be ways that AI helps workers if we, if we manage it the right way and not let it have all the oligarchs take control to help restore basic decency to the work life that's been lacking? So can you discuss that? Because I think that's part of it as well.
- [15:00]
Senator Bernie Sanders
That is the question. All right. I'm not a Luddite. AI can be a very positive advance for humanity. I mean, right away we are already seeing significant benefits in terms of disease diagnosis in healthcare, in the manufacturing of better drugs, in education. So AI has some positive elements, but the issue is, you have just defined it. Who ultimately makes these decisions, who benefits? Who gets hurt? If you say to a factory worker today who has really a hard job, there's a lot of drudgery, there's some danger, it's dirty. And we say, hey, the good news is we can cut your work week in half with no loss of pay. Is that a good thing? I think that worker will say that is a great thing. If we say to people in general that as a result of the increased worker productivity that we're going to see through robotics and AI in general, we're going to be substantially lowering the work week for American workers with no loss of pay, we're going to go down starting to 32 hours, which is not a radical idea. There are many companies all over the world that are already doing it. What will people think? That is a good idea. On the other hand, if you have these companies coming along and saying, hey, factory worker, we no longer need you because we have a robot to do the work and we're throwing you out on the street, that worker is going to say, well, how do I survive? What kind of, where do I get my income? How do I buy food? How do I get housing? How do I get health care? Not a good thing. So what we need to do, AI and robotics are revolutionary, transformative. We need a revolutionary and transformative response. The goal should be that AI and robotics benefit all of our people, not just making the oligarchs even richer. And some of the ways we do that substantially reduce the work week, that the profits generated by AR Robotics go to workers, not just the CEOs and the oligarchs. That we move toward worker ownership of companies so the workers have decision making in terms of how AI impacts the company. So, again, a revolutionary technology requires a revolutionary response. The goal is these new technologies should benefit everybody, not just the people who own them.
- [17:54]
Interviewer Ben
I think we have to remind the people that the conversation that you and I are having right now, how we're balancing technological advancements with compassion for workers and human dignity and is actually why we're what government's supposed to do. I know that sounds simple sometimes, but it's also some of the simple things that get lost in the chaos of what this Trump regime is doing that they are showing. What they are doing is government inflicting, like, pain on people. And I just don't want people to feel acclimated that that's normal. That's not normal. What is normal is having difficult conversations, compromise. People can say, you know what? I agree with Senator Sanders here. I don't agree with him here, and I'm sure you say, that's great, but let's have these tough conversations and let's figure out how we help people. Why else do we have a government? It's not to hurt people and send them into, you know, detention centers and camps like Trump's big focus appears to be.
- [18:55]
Senator Bernie Sanders
No, you're absolutely right. And in Trump, and we should not kid ourselves, it's not only that you have a megalomaniac, somebody who wants more and more power and is moving this country every day toward an authoritarian society. It's not somebody who's just a kleptocrat who in an unprecedented way is enriching himself and his family. But I think when you think of the Trump administration, think of the day that he was inaugurated. And I was there right up front, better or for worse, and right behind them, you had Musk, you had Bezos, you had Zuckerberg, three of the wealthiest people in the world sitting right behind them. And the truth is that Trump has kept his word for them. They are doing phenomenally well. And in terms of AI, they're getting all kinds of money, they're getting all kinds of deregulation. Trump is working hand and glove hand with the oligarchs, enriching them and giving them more power. That is essentially what the Trump administration is all about.
- [20:02]
Interviewer Ben
Finally, I just want to get your take on this. You know, when Trump posts images like this all day, and he says golden age, as though right now Americans are living in a golden age, and he talks about how trillions of dollars have come in. Sometimes he uses 18 trillion, then the next week it's 22 trillion. He just makes it up. It seems to me it's one of the biggest Ponzi schemes in the history of the biggest Ponzi scheme in history, just making up numbers that are fake. But it seems center, this is what we talk about on the show that like a Ponzi schemer, he seems to be just saying to workers and to people, you know what? Your doge dividend check is right around the Corner. I've got $2,000 for you. Just you wait. Just you wait. And it's all part of a plan to just drag people along in the scheme while not addressing the systemic issues. And he's like, golden age. It just seems like such an obvious con, but on such a monumental macro level that's causing such a. Ben, I.
- [21:06]
Senator Bernie Sanders
Think you are right. Absolutely. And I think, remember, it's not just that Trump is a pathological liar. I honestly don't know if he knows the difference between the truth and a lie. He may not. So he says anything that comes to his mind. But it is not an accident that much of his administration are people who are very good communicators, good looking people who are on Fox. So I think what you are dealing with is almost like an ongoing TV show, very interesting TV show with a whole bunch of characters led by Donald Trump, but having many, many other people just going forward every day doing their thing. And truth is not part of what they are about. But I think you can lie to the people 24 7, but when people walk into a grocery store, when people look at the health insurance premiums that they're now facing, when people get their notice from their landlord that their rent is skyrocketing, when people can't afford to send their kids to college or childcare. Trump can say anything he wants about a golden age. But people are saying, and the polling indicates, hey, Mr. Trump, maybe it's a golden age for you and your friends. You're making billions. It ain't a golden age for us. So I think, you know, from a political point of view, and we saw this in the elections a couple of weeks ago, is people are sick and tired of Trumpism. We saw that in the no Kings rallies where 7 million people came out all across this country. We saw that in the fighting oligarchy rallies that I did with Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. People are prepared to move in a very different direction and we need to make sure that that happens.
- [23:10]
Interviewer Ben
Want to remind everybody that you're speaking to Dr. Geoffrey Hinton at Georgetown University. That's my alma mater where I went to law school. It's going to be taking place Tuesday, November 18th at 6pm I'll reach out to Georgetown and see if they'll let me stream it. We'll see what happens there, but I want to tell everybody to make sure they check it out. I'm sure it'll be on on your pages as well. I think this is such an important issue that deserves the attention and that's what we're going to do on this network. So thanks, Senator Sanders, for all you're doing.
- [23:42]
Senator Bernie Sanders
Well Ben, thank you very much. You keep up the great work as well.
- [23:45]
Interviewer Ben
Everybody Hit Subscribe. Let's get to 6 million subscribers.
- [23:49]
Senator Bernie Sanders
Love this video.
- [23:50]
Interviewer Ben
Continue the conversation by following us on Instagram. It's touch and help US blow past 1 million followers.
- [24:06]
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- [24:33]
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