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- [00:00]
Jim Himes
I'm joined by Democratic Congressmember Jim Hines, the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee. Congressmember, given your position, the sensitive intelligence you see as a ranking member of the Intelligence Committee, I got to ask you, your reaction to what we saw last week and frankly, over the weekend with President Trump and his administration's attacks on President Zelensky of Ukraine?
- [00:27]
Democratic Congressmember
Yeah, well, we're in a mighty weird world, right? And, I mean, you can just. You can just see it out there. The Russians are thrilled. Dmitry Peskov, the spokesman for Putin, is saying it looks like the United States and Russia are aligned now on our goals. Remember, this is the country that is responsible for 70,000 deaths in Ukraine that brutalized a struggling democracy. And, you know, we have always, certainly in my lifetime and well before, the United States has always stood with the good guys. Right? You know, in 1941 and 1942 and World War II, we didn't say, oh, so many people are dying in France and the UK And Germany, and, you know, we should bring an end to this. We've always stood with the good guy. And right now, you've got Donald Trump and his administration trying to convince the American people, despite the civilian bodies you saw, the raped women, the children who were murdered in the town of Bucha, You've got the Trump administration trying to convince the Americans that this is some irrelevant conflict where we're just trying to stop the violence between two pesky combatants. Right? We, for the first time in our history, in a major conflict, certainly in Europe, are trading our heritage of standing up for what is right and good and liberty in favor of Donald Trump's bizarre internal hatred for Ukraine in particular, but for anybody that it perceives as not powerful and strong. And that's radically changing the way our allies think about us, the way we're thinking about us. And it's just enormously concerning.
- [01:56]
Jim Himes
It's like, why is this even a question? How is this even a close call? Like, Russia wants to destroy us. Ukraine is our ally. Like, what the heck are we even talking? Like, do you have that reaction sometimes? I mean, look, your committee in particular was a. Was a very bipartisan community intelligence. I don't care if you're a Democrat, Republican, or Independents. It's about keeping Americans alive or whether people are gonna be dead. That should be a bipartisan issue. But how are some of your colleagues? I mean, you gotta be looking at some of these people and being like.
- [02:31]
Democratic Congressmember
What are you doing?
- [02:32]
Jim Himes
What are you doing?
- [02:34]
Democratic Congressmember
Yeah, no, absolutely. And by the way, I'm gonna struggle like crazy, to make sure that the Intelligence Committee remains sort of nonpartisan, not caught up in the politics. You know, we, we, we do a lot of stuff abroad, CIA, NSA surveillance, counterterrorism. It's really important that we have oversight, even in a moment like this that is really fraught. But look, Trump and his people, and by the way, almost all of my Republican colleagues here, with the startling exception of Lisa Murkowski, who stood up and said, this makes me sick to my stomach. Look, foreign policy can be complicated, but this is not complicated. When the Russian spokesman is saying, we're excited by where the United States is, our goals are aligned, and the United Kingdom, with whom we have fought side by side since the Revolutionary War and all sorts of conflicts, when France, when our allies are saying the United States is gone, the United States is no longer the global leader, you know, when Russia is saying, you're doing it all right and our allies are saying, you're doing it all wrong, guess what? You're doing it wrong. And, you know, it's going to take a very long time, a very, very long time for the United States to reestablish, you know, what Reagan called a city upon a Hill, what JFK in his 1961 inaugural address said, we would pay any price, bear any burden for the survival of liberty that is gone. And, you know, it makes for a much apart from what it does to us, our ethics, our morality, our values, it makes for a much more dangerous world.
- [03:57]
Jim Himes
How do you exist in a bipartisan Intelligence Committee environment where the Director of National Intelligence is Tulsi Gabbard, who goes out there every day? And, I mean, this is what, this is what Peskov said yesterday, and this is what RT wrote. How the new US Authorities are changing political configurations in the world. Voting together with Russia in the UN Was previously unimaginable. The US Foreign policy largely matches Russia. And for those who don't know, Peskov is like the Caroline Levitt, basically their press secretary, is PR person. But then you have Tulsi Gabbard goes on Fox right after, and here's what she says.
- [04:44]
Tulsi Gabbard
What happened in the White House after close to an hour of conversation when President Zelensky directly challenged President Trump and Vice President Vance in front of the media and the American people. He really showed his lack of interest in any real good faith negotiations. I can tell you there were a lot of conversations that were happening through different emissaries, both for Zelensky and for President Trump, leading up to his visit there to the Oval Office and President Zelensky's immediate escalation there was, was frankly, quite a surprise.
- [05:21]
Jim Himes
What do you make of that? Blaming Zelensky for the escalation? That would be exactly what Peskov and Russia would be saying.
- [05:31]
Democratic Congressmember
Well, and it is what they said, right? I mean, I never in a million years imagined that I would be on precisely the same page as Dmitry Peskov. But he said perfectly, the United States has reworked the international order and they're on our team now. And think about, think about what happened in the Oval Office. And look, I understand why Marco Rubio, who spent his entire political career standing up to Russia, you know, as a cube, as the descendants of Cuban refugees. I understand, you know, why the Cabinet and Tulsi Gabbard, the people who work for the President, need to lie through their teeth and radically change the people that they were just three months ago. But you know, what's really painful is my colleagues here who are just coming up with this stuff, including that line of thinking. Let's step back from here. Zelensky is watching 70,000 dead Ukrainians every single day. Missiles are slamming into hospitals. Children are being killed on their way to school. This is what he's seeing. And he comes to the Oval Office and a reporter asks him why he's not wearing a suit. And J.D. vance says, you don't say thank you. Think about, Look, Tulsi has this theory that Zelenskyy was a little aggressive. He's presided over a brutal invasion. 70,000 dead Ukrainians. And the VP, the effing VP wants him to say thank you for the aid that we've grudgingly provided. By the way, too late. Thank you to the Republicans in the Congress. It took us a year to get that supplemental package done. And by the way, this gets to the real truth of the matter. You know, half the Republicans, now all of the Republicans, don't want to support Ukraine because the Dear Leader hates Ukraine. But can you imagine 70,000 dead Ukrainians, a brutal invasion? And JD Vince wants you to say thank you. And by the way, I've met with the President any number of times and all of his people, and the first thing they say always is thank you. It is disgusting. It is sickening. It makes me want to throw up as I watch that tape of what happened in the Oval Office.
- [07:19]
Jim Himes
Talk to us about what you're seeing across the country, though. You know, we're seeing these town halls in even ruby red Republican areas. People are pissed at what they saw in the Oval Office. How Donald Trump and J.D. vance treated Zelensky. They're pissed that America right now is looking like an authoritarian regime supporting other authoritarian regimes. They're pissed that their Medicaid is getting cut. They're pissed that Elon Musk and a group of 19 to 25 year old guys who call themselves big balls or whatever are going through their private information, their Social Security data, their medical records and they're being told billionaires are the best people to give all your private information to. And they're hearing about tax cuts for billionaires and they're getting screwed and prices keep going up. Trump posted this moments ago. Paid troublemakers are attending Republican town halls. It's all part of the game for Democrats. I just want to get your overall take on, I guess first the vibe that you're seeing in the country right now.
- [08:21]
Democratic Congressmember
Well, first of all, you know that the White House realized after that Zelensky meeting that they had a problem, right? Because the cabinet officers, Besant, Rubio, they all within 10 minutes were putting out exactly the same stuff about how this remarkable president had doing courageous things that no president has ever done. But you know, the talking points went out. They knew they had a problem. I mean, frankly, the talking points and the propaganda that the cabinet put out would make the North Korean politburo throw up. But they did that. And you know, look, I agree with you, there is a lot of anger and concern. Foreign policy has never been the thing that has driven American voters, by and large, most American voters, it's the economy. And you know, okay, fine, Donald Trump, deny what is happening in all of these Republican. Imagine that they're all paid. Fine. You know, underestimate the rage that is out there. Cuz I want you to underestimate it so that when we have the house election in 2026, we wipe the floor with your people. But here's the thing, right? Foreign policy is generally not all that important politically to most Americans. Right. But what they're talking about, and you brought it up, they're talking about cutting Medicaid. This is health centers, this is hospitals. Listen to a hospital, talk about Medicaid, any hospital. It is grandma in the nursing home who doesn't have assets. And so she's being paid for by Medicaid. It's Pell Grants. They're cutting all of that. They're cutting all of that for one reason and one reason only, which is to lower the corporate tax rate and to provide an ongoing tax cut for the top 1% of the people in this country. That's what's happening. And oh My God, you know, pull anything in this country and what you will see is that lowering the taxes of the wealthiest people in the country by cutting aid to people who need that aid, to children, to indigent grandmothers, absolutely toxic. So, boy, if you think those town hall meetings are bad now, you ain't seen nothing yet.
- [10:11]
Jim Himes
I always get asked, people say, look, we get that Democrats aren't in control of, you know, Congress. We understand they don't control the Senate or the executive branch, but they still want to see a fight. They still want to see, you know, I mean, what can you do? Is Elon Musk never going to be testified before any committee because he's going to claim that he's a super secret puppet master? What do you tell the people though, who are saying we still want, you see some of those polls, people say they want Democrats to fight more. And I guess a lot of people say, well, what does that look like? Because we don't have the control, but people saying we don't care, do something, go get out there and do it. What does that look like to you, Congressman?
- [10:53]
Democratic Congressmember
Yeah, look, we, you know, like it or not, the American people decided that the Democratic Party would be in the minority in the House, the minority in the Senate, and that the Republicans, and Donald Trump in particular, would be in the Oval Office. They took away almost all of our tools. Now in Westport, Connecticut, which I represent, or the Upper west side of Manhattan, that is mind boggling. And I tell people, look, you can't underestimate your opponent. Go to Altoona, Pennsylvania. Get out of the east coast areas that don't understand this so that at least you understand it. Right? Because what we can't do is respond to that, to the MAGA instinct with condescension, with what I hear all the time, which is, oh, those people are so stupid. That is fuel that turbocharges the Magnum MAGA movement. So start by understanding what it is that caused America to take us out of the equation. Then do everything you can. Right? And in the House, sadly, there isn't a lot. All we can do is communicate. By the way, the House has a tiny Republican majority, so the moment they need our help, we're either not going to work with them because they're not abiding by the law anymore, or we are going to have a long list of things that if they want to, for example, pass a budget or not shut the government down, they're going to need to do. But look, right now there's just no getting around the fact that the sharp edge of the spear are the courts, which over and over and over again, the courts are saying, sorry, you can't do that. No, you can't do it. Away with birthright citizenship. No, it is Congress's prerogative to control the purse strings, not yours. Now, what makes that a little complicated is back to my North Korean politburo. Almost every single Republican around here is totally happy to be that North Korean Politburo. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And to not stand up for the Congress's checks and balance authority that the Constitution suggests that we should have.
- [12:38]
Jim Himes
You know, I'm not going to talk about the intelligence community now because I get you wanted that as much as you could take politics out of that. Let's just focus generally, though, on the members of Congress. You know, you've been a member of Congress since, what, 2009. So you've grown from a freshman member of Congress to now a ranking member on the House Intelligence Committee. But you've grown with a lot of, you've seen a lot of these members now for what, 14, 15 years. So you've seen them shift, though. And I'm sure you've seen people who you consider, you know, you could, you could, you could grab a coffee with, you could hang with, you could play some ball with, you could, whatever, you know, and all of a sudden they're out there and you probably think, wait a minute, like, this is like a. What are you doing? Like, like, do you have those moments like, what. How does that work when. When people who you, I'm sure you're friendly with are like Dear Leader, they become Dear Leader people. It's got to be strange.
- [13:35]
Democratic Congressmember
Exactly. You know, sadly, we had a real preview of this After January 6 20, on January 6, 2021, when there were people in the building who wanted to kill all of us on January 7th? Republicans were gobsmacked, right? Just shocked. Shocked and appalled. Probably two weeks later or so, you saw this effort to deny what we all experienced. And it ranged from, oh, well, yeah, there were people who were a little bit out of line, but they were confused, to people who said, hey, it was like any other day a bunch of tourists coming through the House. So we've seen this movie before, and I can tell you the anatomy of it, right? Roughly a third of Republicans are absolutely paid up members of the cult. I'm thinking of the Jim Jordans of the world who, no matter what principle and values do not matter. Whatever Donald Trump wants, he gets. Then you've got a sort of Middle group of people who are a little appalled by what they see, but they know that if they speak up against Donald Trump, its curtains. Look at Bill Cassidy, Senator Bill Cassidy, who voted for the impeachment of Donald Trump but has not stood up against a single one of Donald Trump's insane cabinet nominees. So that's that group. And then you've got a pretty substantial group. And I work with a lot of these guys who just don't want to talk about it. They just don't. You know, I really just want to get my bill passed through financial services or I need to stand up for this base. So please don't ask me that question. You can identify that type because when a reporter sticks a mic in their face and says, what do you think about Donald Trump, you know, siding with the Russians against Ukraine? They say, oh, I didn't see his comments, I didn't see his comments. I haven't read the statement. So that's kind of the anatomy right now, the Republican Party. But of course, what is missing other than arguably one or two members, you know, Lisa Murkowski, who made a very strong statement about the Oval Office fiasco. You know, none of them, none of them will stand up to Donald Trump because they know that doing that means the end of their political careers. We used to believe that political careers weren't the be all, end all that. If you were in the service of a, of a, you know, obviously amoral at best dictator, maybe you make a point of resigning your position and make a statement of principle. It just, you know, that isn't happening.
- [15:57]
Jim Himes
Congressmember Jim Himes, thanks for the chat. We appreciate it.
- [16:00]
Democratic Congressmember
Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me everybody.
- [16:02]
Jim Himes
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- [16:27]
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