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- [00:00]
Host 1
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- [00:31]
Host 2
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- [00:50]
Host 1
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- [01:00]
Host 2
Terms Donald Trump just got a rude awakening as Europe and all of our NATO allies for that matter have erupted with fury after Donald Trump said that NATO and our allies in general did not sacrifice for the United States ever in the war in Afghanistan. Donald Trump gave an interview with Maria Bartiroma on state regime media, which calls itself Fox, and he repeated this. He parroted this with other host on state regime media. Donald Trump said that our NATO allies never sacrificed for us, that they just kind of pretended they were there but never made the ultimate sacrifice the way Donald Trump has referred to soldiers in the United States who have made the ultimate sacrifice or who have been injured as suckers and losers. Donald Trump just sent that same message to Europe to our NATO allies, saying that if you were on the front lines fighting with the United States, in Trump's mind, you are a sucker and a loser because Donald Trump doesn't even acknowledge the ultimate sacrifices that were made. And right now you have Europe families who lost loved ones fighting alongside the United States in Afghanistan. You have people who were injured and maimed doing the ultimate call when the United States is the only country that's ever invoked Article 5 of NATO and all of our NATO allies rushed immediately to support the United States only for Donald Trump to basically call them suckers and losers. There is fire and fury right now taking place across Europe. The reverberations are still being felt. And I don't even think that anyone here in the United States. United States appreciates the ramifications for the utter disrespect that Donald Trump just demonstrated. And this is on top of Donald Trump's attacks on Greenland and saying we're going to invade it and confusing Greenland with Iceland and just calling it a block of ice and continuing to trash NATO. But this made a bad situation even worse. Let me show you what's been going down. You have a British politician, a Tory by the name, a member of Parliament, Ben Obisi Jecti, he says, and he served. He served in war. Here's what he said. We've never needed them. We have never asked them for anything. You know, they'll say they sent some troops to Afghanistan or this or that, and they did. They stayed a little back, a little off the front lines. He's like, how dare you, Donald Ben Obesi Jecti goes. The Member of Parliament from the UK goes, I served in Afghanistan. I saw firsthand the sacrifices made by British soldiers I served alongside, where we suffered horrific casualties, as did US Marines the following year. I don't believe US Military personnel share the view of Donald Trump. His words do them a disservice as our closest military allies. It's sad to see our nation's sacrifice and that of our NATO partners held so cheaply by the President of the United States. You have the leader of the Liberal Democrats, Ed Davey. He also writes 457 British troops lost their lives in Afghanistan. Trump avoided military service five times. How dare he question their sacrifice? Farage and all others still fawning over Donald Trump should be absolutely ashamed about themselves. And as Jacob Cooper writes, I don't think the US Administration appreciates the fury from across Europe in response to Trump's off the front lines comments. Angry doesn't even begin to correctly call it out. I'll show you. Over here you have Al Carnes, the Armed Forces minister, responding to what Donald Trump said about how the British allies and other NATO allies held back a bit in Afghanistan. As an SBS veteran, you can sense his cold anger. Take a look at what Al Carnes had to say. Armed Forces minister in uk let's play it.
- [04:57]
Al Carnes
So tracking some comments made that NATO troops stayed a little off the front lines in Afghanistan and that the US has never necessarily needed us. Well, it's a real shame to hear that the only time NATO has ever enacted Article 5 was after the 911 terrorist attacks. The United States and the world rallied to the support of the us. Our agencies, our forces, our politicians. We all stood together shoulder to shoulder and responded on Afghanistan. Frankly, this is utterly ridiculous. Many courageous and honourable service personnel from many nations fought on the front line. Many fought way beyond it. I'd served five tours in Afghanistan, many alongside my American colleagues. We shed blood, sweat and tears together. Not everybody came home. These are bonds, I think, forged in fire, protecting U.S. or shared interests, but actually protecting democracy overall. I'd suggest whoever believes these comments, come have a whisky with me, my colleagues, their families, and importantly, the families of those that have made the ultimate sacrifice for both of our nations. It's also worth reminding everyone here In World War II, more British troops landed on D Day than any other nation. It was an Allied response. And United States, we conquer. Now, some advice for anyone who may be listening. There are two great sayings worth remembering. Number one, there's only one worse thing than working with allies, that is working without them. And when you do, always remember, never above, never below, always side by side.
- [06:26]
Host 2
Now, the fury continued to erupt in Europe. I'll show you over here. The former head of the British Army, General Lord Dinat, slammed Donald Trump for claiming NATO troops avoided the front lines in Afghanistan. Let's play this clip right here.
- [06:40]
General Lord Dinat
And the comments that he made, as I said, are just totally disrespectful, wrong and outrageous. It does make you wonder whether actually he is fit for the job that he apparently is doing. You know, Donald Trump wants to reflect that when the US forces and NATO forces finally left Afghanistan in August 2021, it was a result of the deal that he had done with the Taliban in the dying days of his first term as president. Joe Biden got the blame. But this was something that Donald Trump organized. And when those two and a half, 3,000 troops finally left, that allowed the Taliban to gain confidence and gain control of that country. And all the good work that had been done over 20 years since 911 was swept away and plunged Afghanistan back into the chaos that it is now. He has got a lot to be responsible for and to answer for.
- [07:33]
Host 2
More from Ed Davey. He made this video right here where he says, how dare the coward in the White House undermined the bravery and sacrifice of our British troops. Reform. And Nigel Farage should be ashamed to associate themselves with him. Here's the video that Ed Davy posted. Let's play this clip.
- [07:51]
Al Carnes
We have never really asked anything of them.
- [07:54]
Rufus Gifford
You know, they'll say they sent some troops to Afghanistan or this or that, and they did. They stayed a little back, a little off the front lines.
- [08:01]
Ed Davey
457 British soldiers lost their lives in Afghanistan.
- [08:07]
Rufus Gifford
Many more received life changing injuries.
- [08:11]
Ed Davey
Donald Trump avoided military service five times.
- [08:17]
Host 2
How dare the coward in the White.
- [08:20]
Rufus Gifford
House question the sacrifice and bravery of British soldiers. And I am sick to the death of Nigel Farage. And reform supporting Donald Trump.
- [08:31]
Ed Davey
They should be ashamed.
- [08:34]
Host 2
Then on BBC News Night, they brought in the former ambassador to Denmark. You see her right here and she tries to defend what Donald Trump says. And you'll see a former Conservative Member of Parliament, Steve Baker, saying to Carl Sands, who's Donald Trump's former ambassador to Denmark, like, what the hell are you even talking about? Did you hear his words? Do you know how off we are in Europe? And just think about it. She was the former ambassador to Denmark under Donald Trump's regime, Donald Trump's first administration, and she's out there right now saying, oh, what Donald Trump said is not a big deal. Denmark lost more soldiers in Afghanistan per capita than any other country in the world. You go down a list of our NATO allies, there's so many countries that have lost so many people fighting alongside the United States. Watch this BBC News Night clip. Let's play it.
- [09:27]
Carl Sands
I'm sorry, he doesn't know every detail about every allied nation.
- [09:30]
Ed Davey
Well, maybe he should be talking about it then.
- [09:33]
Carl Sands
But overall it was true. I'm sorry to say, overall, the NATO allies, most of them had caveats and did not go shoulder to shoulder with us like the uk and let me.
- [09:43]
Ed Davey
Bring in Steve Baker. Yeah, I'm sorry, because I'm afraid in politics, some stuff really does matter. 14 years I've been doing it and I have to say, with things like this, where people have laid down their lives, of course, what you say about he's busy, he's got other things on his plate. But I've spoken to members of Special Forces today and others who served in Afghanistan. He has caused the gravest offense to them because they've lost friends in appalling circumstances, put their own lives on the line, seen people blown up on mines, and he has said to them that what they did didn't count. And the scale of the offence and the collapse, I'm sorry, it's absolutely no good interrupting to say it's not true. I am telling you categorically, he is deeply offended. Our Special Forces, our soldiers and others, he should apologize and he should honor the fallen.
- [10:32]
Carl Sands
Excuse me, we honor them. And I will just say this. If you look at President Trump and every other US President in your lifetime, you will not find one who honors, honors our military more and wants to stop the killing in the world. He has. He has achieved so many ceasefires, and he's looking to end this war with Ukraine and Russia. No other leader was attempting to do this until Donald Trump was elected, elected president of the U.S. his words in January a year ago. It's true.
- [11:02]
Ed Davey
It's his words speak for themselves. They have been heard with great weight and they've caused huge offense.
- [11:09]
Host 2
Next, I'll show you Royal Air force veteran Liz McNany telling BFBS they do a good job reporting on this, too. Of Forces News that Trump's comments were insulting to British troops as well as American troops who served in Afghanistan. Let's play this clip.
- [11:26]
Liz McNany
I was instantly enraged. I mean, I took to Twitter straight away and I almost couldn't get the tweet out fast enough. I was so angry because I did serve in Afghanistan 10 times. And as part of that, I flew on the MERT aircraft, which is the Medical Emergency Response Team, and that was essentially the airborne ambulance. And we picked up so many injured and dying American soldiers off the battlefield. And we risked our lives to do that. And it was a privilege and an honor to be able to do that and put ourselves in danger so that they may live. And I think, you know, to have that all dismissed straight away by Trump was really, you know, just really insulting. I know that a lot of the Americans also put their lives on the line for our British soldiers with the dust off call sign that was the American equivalent of merch. So we were brothers and sisters in arms together, and it didn't matter what combat you were wearing. We all bled the same and we all fought for each other when it really mattered. I've seen so many of our British soldiers. We dropped them off at the front line and then, you know, went back to get them many days later. And we saw what they went through. We saw the horrendous conditions that they lived in and the fighting that they undertook. And, you know, Trump hasn't experienced that. He hasn't served. And I think just to dismiss anyone's service is just, again, the overwhelming emotion is insulting, really.
- [12:36]
Host 2
Here's another clip of Ben Obisi Jecti. Here's what he has to say as well when he spoke to Sky News. Let's play this clip right here.
- [12:45]
Liz McNany
What is your reaction to Donald Trump's comments?
- [12:50]
Ben Obisi Jecti
Disappointment more than anything else. Disappointment, sadness. I'm a veteran of Afghanistan. I served there during Operation Herrick 11, which was 2009, 10. In Sangin, I was part of 3 Rifles Battle Group and we took very, very heavy casualties, the heaviest casualties of any British battle group since the Korean War. And Sangin was the area where a third of all British soldiers, the 457 who lost their lives in Afghanistan, were lost. And when we handed over ultimately as a nation to the US Marines, they too took heavy casualties in Sangin. So to suggest that we didn't, we're a little off the front lines and that we didn't do our fair share of the work in Afghanistan is outrageous. And I think it also insults our NATO partners as well. The Danes particularly took a very high rate of casualties per capita, higher in fact even than us, I think second only to the US So I think to suggest that NATO allies did not do their fair share in Afghanistan when it was the US didn't vote Article 5 is something of a disservice.
- [13:53]
Host 2
And now I want to bring in.
- [13:54]
Interviewer (possibly Ben)
Rufus Gifford, who was the United States Ambassador to Denmark from 2013-27. We had Rufus on recently as well. Ambassador Gifford.
- [14:06]
Rufus Gifford
Rufus, please. Thank you.
- [14:09]
Host 2
Good to see you.
- [14:09]
Interviewer (possibly Ben)
You've now been there for about, you've been in Denmark right now for about five days on the ground there, speaking with people, seeing what's going on.
- [14:19]
Host 2
Talk to us about what the feeling.
- [14:21]
Interviewer (possibly Ben)
Is like right now in Denmark.
- [14:22]
Rufus Gifford
Yeah, Ben, you know, it's heartbreaking, I gotta say. Look, and I love this place, I love this country. Obviously, I'm a patriotic American first and foremost, but my experience here, my three and a half years here, from 13 to 17, I left nine years ago Tuesday. And it's, I will say this trip has been profoundly different. And I think it really, I think you'd see similar things around Europe. I mean, the damage that Trump has done to the American brand and the trust that has been broken with our European partners is actually profound. I just got, you know, I just got down with dinner with a bunch of Danish friends and they, they actually said to me, they said, you're the only American that we could be seen having dinner with right now. Because Danes tend to know me and know where I stand on these issues. And that's a sad, just, I mean, they were joking, of course, and it's, it's, it tongue in cheek. But that is really what we're facing here. I don't think you can overstate the damage that Donald Trump, and singularly Donald Trump has done to the American reputation in this part of the world. And let's be clear, these are our best allies. In the world. These are people who literally would have died for us and have died for us. And that is just such, such a sad thing to see.
- [15:41]
Interviewer (possibly Ben)
So you had that incredibly embarrassing trip by Trump to Davos. The rambling speech. He confuses Greenland and Iceland. Later that day, he announces that he has made a deal over Greenland. And people are like, what are you talking about? And then we heard from Meta Friedrichsen, the Prime Minister over in Denmark, and we heard from Danish officials saying, we, we didn't do anything. We don't know what he's talking about. We heard from the Greenlandic officials. We don't know what he's talking about. Trump heard from anybody now?
- [16:13]
Rufus Gifford
Yeah.
- [16:14]
Interviewer (possibly Ben)
And so what are you hearing? I mean, as that was announced and, you know, people at all levels of government there, what did they tell you?
- [16:22]
Host 2
I mean, Trump's just making this up.
- [16:24]
Interviewer (possibly Ben)
Like the whole thing's a lie.
- [16:26]
Rufus Gifford
Can you trust anything that comes out of his mouth? And that's the truth. I mean, look, I don't know what he said to Mark Ruda, the Secretary General of NATO. I respect the fact that somebody is trying to find an off ramp for Donald Trump here, but frankly, I'm not interested in an off ramp. I'm interested. And I. I don't give anyone. And look, you know, I see the media celebrating the fact that Donald Trump is deciding not to invade Greenland. I'm sorry, he doesn't get points. He doesn't get celebrated for not doing something that was completely unthinkable a year ago. So I don't know what this deal is. I don't believe it's real. I do know that at least at the time that they're making the announcements on the American sides, the Danes and the Greenlanders, who are the only people who you can actually negotiate this deal with. We're not in the room, so I don't know where we are. I don't think anyone knows where we are. And who knows what Donald Trump is going to say when he wakes up tomorrow and where his head's going to be? Because there was a massive 180 turn just in about three hours in Davos. So I'm tired of this roller coaster, Ben, and I think the entire world is tired of this damn roller coaster where you have this guy who doesn't make any sense, this one man who is. We all have to just wait and see what he wakes up and says, and then the entire world responds. And I think we just got to get off that crazy roller coaster and get off it as fast as we possibly can.
- [17:55]
Al Carnes
Right.
- [17:55]
Interviewer (possibly Ben)
We all know that Donald Trump had referred to American soldiers who died or were captured in war as suckers and losers. He basically said the same thing now about NATO troops who died in service of the United States and Afghanistan. Right. As he was leaving that horrible Davos trip, he gave an interview where he said, I don't think NATO would ever be there for us. He said, it wasn't like these countries were with us on the front lines of the war. And you look at a country like Denmark, more deaths per capita of any country in the world that fought alongside American soldiers in Afghanistan. Of course, you know, all European countries are livid. You know, in the uk, they're particularly pissed because they think, look, here, Starmer's not being strong enough on Donald. And people are like, look, Donald Trump saying, I mean, hundreds of soldiers died fighting with the United States. And Trump said, yeah, they're not there for us. So I'm sure that's reverberating, as in addition to the conquer language, stuff like that is irreparable in my mind when you make statements like that about your former allies.
- [18:58]
Rufus Gifford
Yeah, Ben, I think, you know, and this is something that hits me real hard, right? So, you know, I was the guy who went to the prime minister, the foreign minister, the defense minister, and asked the Danes to send their young men and women into harm's way. And without. Without any hesitation, and which has happened for years and years, they said yes. When I was here, it was largely counter ISIS missions. Before me, it was Iraq and Afghanistan. And as you mentioned, Danes lost more men per capita, essentially the same percentage per capita, and more than any other country in the world, in Afghanistan, more young men and women. And so I've been talking to vets today, and if you follow, if anyone follows me on social media, you'll see some of these stories. I mean, it's heartbreaking. I was talking to a Danish vet a couple of days ago. He was a. He's a trauma surgeon, an army trauma surgeon. He sort of ran this trauma hospital in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, run by the Brits. And essentially his job was to save American lives. And this was the largest trauma hospital in the world, by the way, at the time. And of course, a lot of young men and women lost their lives. They saved a lot of lives, and no one gave a shit what country you were from when you came in with your legs blown off. And for God's sake, these guys were on the front lines. These Brits, these Danes, Dutch, French, Canadians, everybody. They were all on the front lines, so he doesn't know what he's talking about. And the fact of the matter is, man, like those people who lost their lives, they have mothers, they have fathers, they have spouses, they have kids, they have brothers and sisters who listen to what the President of the United States says. And remember, in Afghanistan in particular, which is what he was talking about in those notes, guess why those allies were there in Afghanistan? It's because those allies invoked Article 5 alongside us after 9, 11 and went into Afghanistan as NATO to defend the United States of America. Because Article 5 was invoked. And for those guys, for those guys who lost their lives or lost their legs or had PTSD for the rest of their life, to hear the President of the United States say they weren't on the front lines and haven't sacrificed very much, I'm sorry, but that is a red line the likes of which we haven't seen, certainly from an American president, perhaps ever. And look, yes, they are freaking out about this in the UK and Canada and Denmark and around the world. And for God's sake, Americans, we need to be freaking out about this, too. And I call on you Republicans who pretend that you support the military. I mean, God's sake, man, you hear what he said today, Speak out against it, take a stand. I mean, this is indefensible. And to listen to Maria Bartiromo, Stan, sorry for going off on this, but to listen to Maria Bartiromo just get away with him saying that, I mean, for God's sake, this is just, it is either outrageously naive or just, you know, you don't even want to say the words because it's unthinkable for an American president to have ever said something like that. Right?
- [22:03]
Interviewer (possibly Ben)
And then he creates his own board. I won't call it what he calls it because he says board of peace, but it's a board of authoritarian leaders. And he's got Putin and Lukashenko and Uzbekistan, and so he's traded away the Denmarks and the France and our Australias and our Canadas to be with Putin and Lukashenko and Orban, although Orban struggling in Hungary. So we'll see what happens in that next election. But he and Putin are going to work awfully hard to try to overturn and block that. But we'll keep following it. But, you know, I think you're seeing, and I want to leave on this note to get your perspective, new international structures that are forming transatlantic relationships between Canada and Europe. Also looking in Asia, that basically cut out the United States. That's going to have a generational impact. So what are you seeing there?
- [22:59]
Rufus Gifford
Yeah, well, I think it's a one, I agree with everything you just said. I think that this is a pivotal moment in time for Europe. Right. So I think the problem with Europe is that it's been very hard for any sort of sense of unanimity or any sort of unity, generally speaking, in Europe. It's a complicated, obviously very diverse continent. But this moment in time, and I say this everywhere I go here, and I've given a lot of talks and obviously been very vocal on this in social media, Europeans have got a state. You mentioned how, like the UK has been vocal, vocal about how Starmer hasn't stood up to Trump aggressively enough. Well, I say that to every European leader. Right now we are seeing a change. I think post Davos, there is a marked change on the part of European leaders standing up to Trump and I'm glad to see it. But the fact of the matter has been, and this is the point in my mind, Europe has been treating Trump the same way they've treated essentially every other European, excuse me, American president. And, and he is fundamentally different. He is a bully first and foremost. And the only thing bullies respond to is strength. And if you fet him and you roll out the red carpet for him and you throw him state dinners and you call him, God forbid, Mark Ruda daddy, he sees that as weakness and he will walk all over you. The truth of the matter is, though, I do believe that Europe needs to stand up, speak out against these ridiculous new institutions, this whatever institute of peace thing that he' putting together, that we all know will not be a real thing in a couple of years when he's no longer here. But the Europeans need to stand for something here. They need to take a stand. They can no longer be the United States, little brother. They need to be our worthy rival. And I say this as a proud and patriotic American. I think the US Would benefit from having a strong, unified Europe that is our friend, but also our rival. And I hope that does happen.
- [24:57]
Interviewer (possibly Ben)
Ambassador Gifford, thanks for joining us. Former United States Ambassador to Denmark, 2013-27 Great to have you back and hope to have you on again in the future.
- [25:07]
Rufus Gifford
Anytime, Ben. It's a pleasure to be with you.
- [25:10]
Host 2
Everybody.
- [25:10]
Interviewer (possibly Ben)
Hit subscribe. Let's get to 6 million subscribers.
- [25:13]
Host 2
Want to stay plugged in? Become a subscriber to our substack@midasplus.com you'll get daily recaps from Ron Filipkowski, add free episodes of our podcast, podcasts and more exclusive content Only available@midasplus.com.
- [25:29]
Rufus Gifford
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- [25:49]
Host 2
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- [26:00]
Interviewer (possibly Ben)
All.
- [26:01]
Host 1
As a growing family, my husband and I love game night. Especially when it's Wayfair edition.
- [26:05]
Rufus Gifford
Let's do it.
- [26:06]
Host 2
You gotta name as many Wayfair furniture and decor categories as you can. Ready?
- [26:10]
Rufus Gifford
Go.
- [26:11]
Host 1
Sofas, bar stools, beds, ottomans, outdoor seating, bookshelves, kitchen table, garden sheds, mid century modern lamps.
- [26:18]
General Lord Dinat
Time.
- [26:19]
Liz McNany
Nice.
- [26:20]
Rufus Gifford
You got nine out of a lot. Not too bad.
- [26:23]
Host 2
Keep practicing by visiting Wayfair.com where you can shop every style for every home. Wayfair Every style, every home.