John Bisognano on How to Counter GOP Redistricting Plan

Summary

The MeidasTouch Podcast — Episode Summary

Episode: John Bisognano on How to Counter GOP Redistricting Plan
Date: August 17, 2025
Host(s): Ben, Brett, and Jordy Meiselas
Guest: John Bisognano (President, National Democratic Redistricting Committee)

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the GOP’s latest redistricting maneuvers, particularly in Texas, exposing the tactic’s true motivations and discussing possible strategies for countering these undemocratic efforts. Ben Meiselas and the brothers invite John Bisognano to provide expert insight into the redistricting “arms race,” its legal underpinnings, and what voters and activists can do to protect fair representation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Gaslighting on GOP Redistricting & Media Strategies

• Texas Governor Greg Abbott’s Justification:
  Abbott claims the redistricting is to help minority communities, notably African Americans and Hispanics, have “choice” ([01:26], [03:07]).
• Media Tools for Dismissal:
  Pundits on Fox News, particularly Jesse Watters, attempt to trivialize and distract from the seriousness of the gerrymandering issue with outlandish hypotheticals (e.g., “peacefully” annexing Canadian provinces for more GOP Senate seats) ([04:54]).

Ben (re Abbott): “Would you almost appreciate it more if they just said, look, we’re fascists, we hate democracy…” ([02:55])

Jesse Watters: “If he needs to gerrymander, he’s going to gerrymander … we can take [Canadian provinces] peacefully. It will be a mostly peaceful invasion. And those are three states. That means six Republican senators!” ([04:54])

2. Why Redistricting Matters — and Its Current State

• John Bisognano’s Overview:
  • Redistricting is usually seen as “wonky” but has growing public attention ([06:05]).
  • The National Democratic Redistricting Committee (NDRC) helped yield the fairest Congressional maps in decades.
• Backslide in Texas:
  Texas GOP’s efforts seek a return to extreme gerrymandering, effectively erasing fair competition and representation for Democrats ([06:05]).

Bisognano: “We’re currently seeing such excitement and enthusiasm around [redistricting]…we’ve been able to create a much fairer redistricting process across the country.” ([06:05])

Bisognano: “[Texas is] trying to do is revert back to an extraordinarily gerrymandered system … where Democrats can’t even compete if their ideas are good enough.” ([06:05])

• Key Legal Point:
  Abbott explicitly frames redistricting as based on race—“giving Latinos the opportunity to vote”—which Bisognano argues is crucial for future litigation ([06:05]).

3. The “Arms Race” and Potential Consequences

• Mutually Assured Destruction:
  If every state maximizes partisan gerrymandering, all voters lose, not just one party ([07:50],[08:42]).
  • It undermines checks and balances and the ability to have new, competitive candidates.
  • Democratic states may respond, but the escalation only hurts democratic representation.

Bisognano: “The first thing to remember is voters lose. There’s no question about that.” ([08:42])

• Texas’s Choices and Trump’s Involvement:
  • Abbott’s actions appear based more on Trump’s political interests than legal requirements.
  • The process isn’t inevitable—Abbott could choose not to proceed ([09:11]).

Bisognano: “Governor Abbott is the alpha and the omega of this process. He doesn’t need to take up the pen.” ([09:11])

4. What Can Be Done—Call to Action

• Get Engaged:
  • NDRC encourages engagement both in Texas and nationally.
  • Text “action” to 36787 to connect ([12:00]).
  • Contact Texas legislators, attend hearings, spread awareness in your networks.
  • Monitor the redistricting process in your own state.

Bisognano: “…calling your legislators, calling your representatives, trying to engage the process and make sure they understand that you don’t want this. But also if you’re somewhere else in the country, try to talk to your friends and locals in Texas…monitoring your own state, too.” ([12:00])

• Fighting Disempowerment:
  Trump’s tactics are described as making voters feel “weak and powerless,” but citizens still hold significant political power ([12:00]).

Bisognano: “We still have the ability to speak up and to vote and to make sure that our votes are heard and counted.” ([12:00])

5. Final Reflections

• Ben’s Appreciation for “Quiet Heroes”:
  Ben likens Bisognano’s behind-the-scenes work to the vital, often unsung roles played by litigators defending democracy ([13:37]).

Ben: “…when you need to fight back, I am the call that you want. And so that’s what you’re doing. John, we appreciate you so much.” ([13:37])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Gaslighting and Motivation:
  “Would you almost appreciate it more if they just said, look, we’re fascists, we hate democracy, we’re trying to destroy the American experiment?”
  — Ben ([02:55])

• On Redistricting’s Stakes:
  “Texas is trying to revert back to an extraordinarily gerrymandered system … where Democrats can’t even compete if their ideas are good enough.”
  — Bisognano ([06:05])

• On Who Loses:
  “The first thing to remember is voters lose. There’s no question about that.”
  — Bisognano ([08:42])

• On Citizen Power:
  “We still have the ability to speak up and to vote and to make sure that our votes are heard and counted. So engage the process now…”
  — Bisognano ([12:00])

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:26 | GOP’s narratives on redistricting — Ben & Jake break it down | | 04:54 | Jesse Watters trivializes gerrymandering on Fox | | 06:05 | Bisognano’s overview of the redistricting fight | | 08:42 | Who truly loses in gerrymandering arms race | | 09:11 | The decision is up to Abbott, not legal necessity | | 12:00 | How listeners can get involved/Call to Action | | 13:37 | Ben highlighting Bisognano’s and NDRC’s vital work |

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Conclusion

This episode dissected the right’s manipulative justifications for redistricting, spotlighted the risks of an unchecked gerrymandering escalation, and armed listeners with practical ways to defend voting rights. Both a sobering and energizing conversation, it is a clarion call to action to anyone worried about democracy’s future—or simply the fate of their own voting power.

Transcript

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[Ben (Host/Interviewer)]

As Donald Trump's plans backfire and blow up in the maga Republicans faces They're going on various live TV hits, going on cnn, trying to gaslight audiences. You have Governor Greg Abbott of Texas saying, you know, the reason why we're doing this gerrymandering right now before the midterms is actually we're trying to help the African American and Hispanic community. We're just trying to give them choice. Really? That's what you're going with now here.

[Jake (Interviewer/Commentator)]

Play this clip and they instead align with the Republicans. What we want to do is to draw districts that give those Hispanics and African Americans in the state of Texas the ability to elect their candidate of choice.

Well, that's not really. I mean, you're doing this to give Trump and Republicans in the House of Representatives five additional seats, right? I mean, that's the motivation is to stave off any midterm election losses.

Again, to be clear, Jake, the reason why we're doing this is because of that court decision. Texas is now authorized under law that changed. That was different than in 2021 when we last did redistricting under new law, as well as new facts that surface in the aftermath of the Trump election showing that many reasons of the state that historically had voted Democrat that were highly Hispanic now chose to vote Republican and vote for Trump, as well as other Republican candidates, districts where the electorate voted heavily for Trump, they were trapped.

[Ben (Host/Interviewer)]

The level of gaslighting there, at some point, you know, would you almost appreciate it more if they just said, look, we're fascists, we hate democracy, we're trying to destroy the American experiment. That's what we're doing.

[John Bisignano (President of National Democratic Redistricting Committee)]

But.

[Ben (Host/Interviewer)]

But no, we're just trying to help the Hispanic community. We're just trying to help black communities in Texas. It's so ridiculous. Then, as part of that interview as well, Governor Abbott has asked, well, isn't this just gonna lead to Democrats doing the same thing? And isn't there gonna be a gerrymandering arms race? And watch what Abbott says.

[Jake (Interviewer/Commentator)]

Play it in Texas, we're gonna add five Democratic seats. Are you not worried at all about a redistricting gerrymandering arms race going on? And theoretically, is it not just better for voters to be picking their politicians instead of politicians to be picking their voters through gerrymandering?

Well, to be clear, listen, all those big blue states, they've already gerrymandered. Look at the map of Illinois. Look at the map of California, New York and Massachusetts and so many other blue states, they gerrymandered a long time ago. They got nothing left with regard to what they can do. And know this. If California tries to gerrymander five more districts, listen, Texas has the ability of, to eliminate 10 Democrats in our state. We can play that game more than they can because they have fewer Republican districts in their states.

[Ben (Host/Interviewer)]

So that's what you're doing. That's where you're going with this. Then on Fox, they have Jesse Waters. One of the tactics that you got to notice about what they do on Fox do when someone like Jesse Waters is they just try to make everything just sound so absurd that it's just bad. Make everything into, like a joke. And then, so Jesse Waters talks about taking over Canada and then gerrymandering Canada and then adding more. Just, just watch how ridiculous is. But the part, the purpose of this is to make a very serious issue seem not serious. Here, play this clip.

[Jesse Waters (Fox Commentator)]

Trump's tired of getting bullied. Trump's not going to let this slide anymore. If he needs to gerrymander, he's going to gerrymander and if they want to add stars to the flag, okay, we'll just take Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba. And it doesn't have to be aggressively. We can take it peacefully. It will be a mostly peaceful invasion. And those are three states. That means six Republican senators. See what we did there?

[Ben (Host/Interviewer)]

Greenland.

[Jesse Waters (Fox Commentator)]

Exactly, Greenland.

[John Bisignano (President of National Democratic Redistricting Committee)]

I'm totally, I am totally for it now. Kennedy.

[Ben (Host/Interviewer)]

See what they're doing right there? Let's bring in John Bisignano, the president of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee. John, you know, that's what's going on on the propaganda on the right wing about it. Kind of at every stage of it. You lead the efforts, I mean, as part of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee, I mean, you're leading the efforts to get out accurate information and to fight back against what we showed you right there. There's become a lot of this in the news lately. So this is kind of, you know, your bread and butter. You're on the front lines and this is what's being discussed. Where are we right now with all of this? You.

[John Bisignano (President of National Democratic Redistricting Committee)]

Yeah. Thank you, Ben. Redistricting is popular, I think. You know, we live in this world where we deal with such a wonky topic on a day to day basis, but we're currently seeing such excitement and enthusiasm around it, and we're trying to share as much information as we can. And so since the onset of this organization's creation in 2017, we've been able to create a much fairer redistricting process across the country. And for the past two congressional election cycles, what we've seen are the fairest and most representative maps this country has ever seen, at least back to 1965, if not before. When folks start thinking about what's happening in Texas, I want them to understand that it's happening in that lens. It's happening in an environment where both parties right now have the ability to compete for the U.S. house of Representatives. And that's critical to the nature of this country. It's critical to the way the founders wanted it to work with checks and balances. And so what Texas is trying to do is revert back to an extraordinarily gerrymandered system from maybe 2012 or so, where the House Republicans have complete control over the process and over the state. And we live in an environment where Democrats can't even compete if their ideas are good enough. And so what we're seeing in Texas and the clips you played are really, really critical to monitor and to watch because Governor Abbott in that first clip very specifically cites race as the reason for his redraw. He cited. He said that that was the most important thing from his perspective. He's giving Latinos the opportunity to vote, which makes absolutely no sense when you look at the maps. But it's critical from a litigation perspective to remember that they are saying this is about race. They are using race as the predominant factor upon which they're drawing mandarin maps. And I think we should all remember that in the future.

[Ben (Host/Interviewer)]

So where does it go from here now? How does this play out? He talked about the. We heard the discussion about the arms race. Now California saying, well, we're going to have a trigger law that says if Texas does this, we're going to do this. It's a little bit harder because you're gonna have to have a ballot initiative in New York. There's constitutional amendments that you have to deal with there. Massachusetts is saying, well, we're gonna. Then Abbott's saying, well, Democrats have already done enough de redistricting. So if you play it out to its natural conclusion and everybody just gerrymanders every state to the fullest extent and eliminates the other party, where does that bring us? Like, as you analyze the. You were ahead of the curve here. You've been doing this for over a decade, figuring this out. So where do the chess moves play as you game theory this out?

[John Bisignano (President of National Democratic Redistricting Committee)]

Yeah, I think the first thing to remember is voters lose.

[Ben (Host/Interviewer)]

Right.

[John Bisignano (President of National Democratic Redistricting Committee)]

There's no question about that. The ability for individuals to affect change in their state, to run exciting new members of Congress, to not just engage in primaries, but engage in general elections. That's where the biggest loss happens. And no one wants that. And I just want to be clear about this and reiterate one major point. None of this has to happen. Governor Abbott is the alpha and the omega of this process.

[Ben (Host/Interviewer)]

Right.

[John Bisignano (President of National Democratic Redistricting Committee)]

He doesn't need to take up the pen. He does not need to make decisions that are going to result in a extraordinarily gerrymandered map. So there are, of course, as you noted, Democratic states that are talking about making corrective action to what Texas is doing. Frankly, our organization has supported that, given the extremity with which Texas is trying to attack this democracy. But. But it's critical to remember that as of today, Texas has not fully voted a map out of their legislature, and they don't need to. They. Governor Abbott continually cites this Department of Justice letter that is based not on law, but clearly on Donald Trump's interests. It seems like, you know, Donald Trump sat around in a room, I don't know, one of the rooms in the White House and told folks, hey, Governor Abbott needs to redraw those maps to get me five congressional seats so that we can hold the House. Draft up some kind of letter that will let them do that, because none of the letter is based in fact or law. So the point being, I think Texas should not begin this process. Texas does not need to begin this process. And we've continually tried to drive as much engagement and excitement in Texas as we've been able to. And you've seen so much good work happen in Texas so far. There's so many people that have gone out to these hearings and engaged the hearings. It's been incredible to watch the public outcry, none of which is asking for this. Again, not us, not voters. Nobody wants this except for Donald Trump and a small cabal of Republicans that wanna hold on to power without shifting their ideas to support the American people. I think the part that is what we're continually reminded of in this process is that Donald Trump is just simply petrified of the bill that he passed, probably arguably the least popular budget bill I've ever seen, at least, and trying to hold on to scraps of power that he thinks he is entitled to. As he said, he said, I'm entitled to five more seats out of Texas. I think the voters should be able to choose that without politicians redrawing the lines to rig it for themselves. So that's going to be our goal, and that's where we'll stay.

[Ben (Host/Interviewer)]

It backfires on everybody. It's mutually assured destruction for everybody. And, you know, sure, in this specific cycle, there may be an outcome this way, but if everybody races to the bottom at the end of the day, to your point where voters get to show, what can people do right now? How do people get involved? What's the call to action? I mean, people are very angry about what's happening in Texas. But you listen to Abbott. Abbott seems right now. I mean, he goes back and forth with different justifications. But Abbott, Paxton, they're gonna do whatever Trump wants him to do. I mean, they're MAGA through and through. So what do we do to stop this? We're seeing a lot of these Texas state representatives showing a lot of courage. But what do we do?

[John Bisignano (President of National Democratic Redistricting Committee)]

Yeah, I think first you can get engaged with our organization. You can text action to 36787. But what we're focused on is a national perspective, but continually driving attention to Texas, as I noted before. And so it's critical as we start talking about these other states and Donald Trump is sending J.D. vance around to talk to people in Indiana and other, you know, states to push them, beg them to gerrymander their maps so that they don't lose the House. What we need to remember is that this does. Texas is so critical to continuing that narrative. So continually focus on Texas. And if you're a person in Texas, certainly calling your legislators, calling your representatives, trying to engage the process and make sure they understand that you don't want this. But also if you're somewhere else in the country trying to talk to your friends and locals in Texas, they're but monitoring your own state, too. We can help you do that. If you do, text us at that number. But also, I just want to make sure that everybody remembers in their state we do still have power. And I think that the part that's driving everybody crazy, we're seeing it with what Donald Trump's doing in Washington, D.C. right now. We're seeing it in redistricting, and we're seeing it, frankly, in some of his rhetoric about the census over just the past week or so. He's trying to make people feel weak and powerless, and we shouldn't, because American citizens still have power in this government. We still have the ability to speak up and to vote and to make sure that our votes are heard and counted. So engage the process now and do everything that you possibly can to make sure that this is a fair and representative vote.

[Ben (Host/Interviewer)]

You know, John, you're kind of the person who, when I was a lawyer, you know, people, I would say, you really don't want to see me. You don't want to have to hear a lot about me. But when you need me, you need me. And sometimes times in the Trump regime, there were all these people who you didn't think that you had to really need and talk to because they were doing the hard work quietly, just in the background, protecting these institutions. So I'm going to lump you into me when I was the litigator and I said, you're not the call that I want to do, but when you need to fight back, I am the call that you wanted. And so that's what you're doing. John, we appreciate you so much. John Bisaniano, President of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee. We appreciate you.

[John Bisignano (President of National Democratic Redistricting Committee)]

I appreciate you, Ben. Thank you so much.

[Ben (Host/Interviewer)]

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[John Bisignano (President of National Democratic Redistricting Committee)]

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[Ben (Host/Interviewer)]

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[John Bisignano (President of National Democratic Redistricting Committee)]

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