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- [00:01]
Cory Booker
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- [00:30]
Ben Meiselas
I'm joined by Senator Cory Booker. Senator, I want to get your reaction to the chaos that Donald Trump is causing in the markets, the chaos that he's plunging our economy into. What do you make of it all, Senator?
- [00:44]
Cory Booker
Look, it was bad, really bad for Americans before these tariffs. Inflation was up, costs of living was up, consumer confidence was down. We saw all of these things that were already betraying what his promises were to a lot of people that put their faith in him that he would make their cost of living better. But now it is a true just taking a battle ax to the economic well being of Americans and frankly having an effect that's going across the globe. And so let's just start with the reality is that this is going to drive prices even higher for Americans. Thousands of dollars to the average American's annual cost of living. For people that have 401 Akats, their retirement security, they've lost thousands and thousands. I've been hearing from people who had hoped to retire this year after working for 25, 30, 35 years, but now don't think they have the money because he's taken $6 trillion overall out of the markets. And then just to see all these big economic indicators start to project a recession, it just shows that this man first of all knows nothing. Even his right wing supporters, right leading think tanks like the American Enterprise Institute have said even the justification that he's making, the data that he's relying on is flawed and convoluted and not based in any kind of strategy or science or economics. So this just shows exactly what we were saying about Donald Trump before he got in here. What his own former chief of staff was saying, what his own former secretary of defense was saying. All these people said that he was a danger to the national security, a danger to our economy, a danger and a real risk of the continuance of our country.
- [02:35]
Ben Meiselas
You know, you look at his conduct, do you think, I mean, it's beyond just kind of a reckless to intentional and malicious almost as part of the. I've Spoken to some of your Democratic colleagues in the Senate and Senator Murphy was saying, saying, you know, I think it's intentional. He goes, I think it's part of the authoritarian playbook where, you know, by destroying the economy, by putting all these tariffs on, you then have to force businesses and other countries to come to you to beg, please, can I have this? Can I you make a deal with me? Do you think it's that or do you think it's a combination? What do you, what do you just make of it all? Just seems so obviously reckless, you know.
- [03:15]
Cory Booker
Look, I, I, I know from doing a lot of studying strategists from Laosu to great generals is understanding the motivations of your opposition does help in designing strategy. But I'm going to tell you this right now, I don't give a damn why he's doing it. I am going to fight this guy. We need to fight this guy. Because whatever his motivations, whoever you are in this country, whether you're a senior citizen, whether you're a mother, unexpected mother, whether you're a young kid who's in grade school, whether you're labor and seeing what he's doing, the labor laws, whether you're a consumer and what he's doing to consumer protections, whether you're just a family trying to make ends meet, he is coming after you. And so screw him and his motivations. I don't want to try to get in that head because frankly, that is an odyssey upon which I do not want to embark. What my job is, what all of our jobs are as Americans, as patriots, is to protect our country and protect people. And so that's the question right now is how do we stop him from doing what he's doing? He's already proven who he is. If he promised us that he was going to lower prices, look at his hundred plus executive orders immediately. He was doing things to gut ethical loss, to allow more corruption to come into our dramatic our government, to gut the ability to protect our nation and our democratic pillars, like voting from foreign adversaries to gut, frankly, a lot of the things we put in place during the Biden administration give people more access to health care, more access to lower prescription drugs. These were the things he did right off the black bat, frankly, what he did to environmental protections. And for a guy that lives in the city that has four times the asthma rates of the towns around us, a guy who lives in a community where kids suffer from all kind of environmental toxins, he's allowing polluters to pollute more, which is going to raise rates of asthma, emphysema deaths from those things and therefore raise health care costs. And more people being rushed to the emergency room. Everywhere I look, he is hurting people. He is hurting Americans. And the voices that I tried to read from the Senate floor, as many of them I could center as possible, they were Republican voices and Democratic voices. They were young voices and old voices. They were Republican elected officials and Democratic officials all screaming to the moral moment that we're in. That we are in a crisis. We are in a crisis. We cannot allow this guy to stay the course of what he's doing.
- [05:53]
Ben Meiselas
Senate Majority Leader John Thune was recently asked about the tariffs. He's really kind of refusing to criticize Donald Trump, but says, you all know where I stand, but this is what he ran for. Let me show you what Senator soon said and then get your reaction to it later.
- [06:11]
Cory Booker
With respect to tariffs, the White House has said that an additional 50% tariff will go on China if retaliatory tariffs by China are not taken down. This means that according to some estimates, the tariffs could reach as high as 104%. What do you say to that? And what do you say to the markets in particular, which are very rattled by all of these tariffs? Well, look, and I think you all have covered this place long enough. I think everybody kind of knows my views on tariffs. But the fact of the matter is, the president ran on this. There wasn't a campaign event where he didn't talk about the importance of getting other countries to treat us more fairly when it comes to trade, bilateral trade, multilateral trade in this country. And 77 million people voted for him and his agenda. And I think he deserves the opportunity to see what kind of deals he can get from some of our trading partners.
- [07:02]
Ben Meiselas
Senator, what do you make of that statement from Majority Leader Thune?
- [07:06]
Cory Booker
I mean, again, we as a Senate are abandoning our constitutional obligations. The Senate, it was not created. Congress was not created to bow down to the will of an executive and let them do whatever they want. The article one branch of government was to create a check and a balance on that kind of authority on presidential power. And so, again, somebody who won, by the way, he did not win the majority of votes, one of the narrowest margins in the history of our country. Majority of people voted against him. So that argument, to me is just so insufficient to justify any of the kind of behavior of Congress. But if you were just talking about what your constitutional duty is, it's to provide checks and balances, provide oversight. We haven't had one hearing on the outrageousness that we're seeing, whether it's Elon Musk, the richest man in the world and what he's doing. Not one oversight hearing to his gutting of Social Security Administration, who is gutting of Health and Human Services. Not a hearing on his gutting of the VA 80,000 people. No hearings whatsoever on that behavior. No hearings on the national security breach in signal gate. Not one hearing to ask the right questions. We should be asking, is this the pattern and practice of the way they've been communicating? Have they had other instances of using a commercial app to communicate classified information? I could go on and on and on. We have abdicated our constitutional obligations. We are not just to lay down to a president, Democrat or Republican, who gets elected to that office. That's not the role. And it's unfortunate to hear him say that when he disagrees, he basically is admitting that he disagrees with this policy, but is not doing anything to create accountability for it.
- [09:00]
Ben Meiselas
Let's talk about what the fight looks like. I mean, I think that a visual of that fight was of course, your 25 hour plus speech where you stood there and you brought attention, I think, to all of these issues courageously. And you saw in doing that, the American people were rallying behind that as well. It was a galvanizing moment. Now Democrats don't control the Senate for now. They don't control the House for now. They don't control the White House for now. So the American people, though, don't care. They said, we still want you to fight. We want you to fight. So what does that look like right now, you know, as we do this interview on April 8, Tuesday, 2025?
- [09:42]
Cory Booker
Well, first of all, let me just give credit to the American people that were demanding of me. I had constituents coming here with awful stories of what was happening to them. And they were saying, the truth, you're not doing enough. You need to do more. You need to take some risks. And so that the motivation of that 25 hours where the voices of my constituents were calling for us to step up more. And it's one of the reasons why we were so determined to center their voices now. And so this is a time that Congress is what it is. They have the majorities in the House and the Senate, but it doesn't mean that we still all have agency and we don't have the ability to think of creative tactics and stands to make, and especially when we have leverage, whether it is the coming continuing resolution, whether it is the debt ceiling rise, or whether Especially it is for any legislation that they might propose. We've got to exercise that leverage. We've got to continue to fight in the courts. I know historically that can be important, necessary, but not sufficient. As we saw with Brown versus Board of Education, it was a tremendous legal victory, but it didn't result in the integration of American schools. We had to do a lot more marching, a lot more fighting. You had to see the courageous stands of people like Ruby Bridges being escorted by federal authorities into school. But the final area, I always say, the three buckets, you fight in the courts, you fight using every legislative and procedural tactic you can. But the third most important way to fight, which is again, part of my 25 hour stand. But more importantly than that, part of the millions of people who stood over the weekend in the hands off rallies around this country, between a thousand and two thousand of them, is that we have to exercise the greatest power in a democracy, which is the power of the people. And I'm a firm believer that history shows that the power of the people is greater than the people in power, no matter how obstinate, stubborn or determine those powerful foes are. And I know that because it was just in 2017 that I witnessed John McCain, Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins change their votes. And as much as my ego would like to say it was because of the persuasiveness of their Democratic Senate colleagues, it wasn't that. It was Americans who went to extraordinary lengths to demonstrate, to protest, to exercise their free speech rights. It was powerful little lobbyists that came here in their wheelchairs, rolling up on Congress people and letting their voices be heard. It was veterans who came to demonstrate. It was seniors who came to demonstrate it, others that eventually called to the conscience of a few Republicans to change their vote. And so right now, perhaps the most powerful tool we have in our toolbox is our ability to exercise First Amendment rights, to assemble, to protest, to speak up, to stand up, to rise up as a people and not let them do it. And there are a lot of House members that are in districts where they now know, especially with the success we had, not just in Wisconsin, but even in narrowing the gap in heavily Republican districts, as we did in Florida. There are people that are in Congress right now who are seeing their chances of re election go further, further and further down as they continue to stand with Trump and Musk and refuse to stand with what the people in their district are saying to them. The more we pressure people like that to change their votes, the more likely we are to be able to stop them from gutting Medicaid, from continuing to put tariffs at raise prices, from gutting Social Security and the other things that are in their crosshairs, all to give perhaps some of the historic largest tax cuts to the wealthiest in our country.
- [13:31]
Ben Meiselas
You know, I've seen some data, and I'm not sure if you've seen it as well, that with all of the cuts that Doge has been make, whatever the wrecking ball that Doge has been taking to the government, the hostile takeover of our federal government, the destruction of all of these programs that provide essential services, there has actually not been cuts in federal spending. That federal spending is actually higher than it was the same time last year. Or at least right, right in that range. There's been no major cuts at all, actually. And then you layer on top of that that Musk just won't show up and that your Republican colleagues won't ask the questions and even bring these people to hold hearings. It's just very odd.
- [14:19]
Cory Booker
No, I mean, look, this is, everything they're saying is a, is factually you can show it's a law. This is not about ending government corruption. They have taken out inspector generals, they have taken down rules to stop corruption. They've opened up more corruption, starting with the President himself, who's violating the emoluments. Close. This is not a government efficiency. They've done things to dismantle things that created more transparency and efficiency in government operations. And as you just said, it's not about lowering government spending. They are ratcheting it up, including their immigration play, which is adding tens of billions of dollars to our, our budget expenses by the, by funding principally private prisons to warehouse overwhelmingly non violent people. But on top of that, they're taking important government work like the atf. They're dismantling the ATF and redirecting those resources towards their immigration efforts, which again are not going after the violent criminals, simply they're going after the parents of American children, the spouses of Americans, people who came here legitimately fleeing violence, who have legitimate asylum claims. And so what this is, to me, it's a tyranny play. It's a tyranny play. It's about a chaotic and capricious craven president who is trying to get more power by violating constitutional norms, by assaulting the Article 3 branch, the judiciary. So much so that the Chief justice of the Supreme Court had to come back at him, really using every way he can to beat Article 1 branch into submission, as far as literally threatening to run primaries funded by Elon Musk at tunes of $100 million against anybody that steps out of line. This is a tyranny play. And again, I return to the wisdom of Frederick Douglass, who said, the limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those they seek to impress to oppress. The limits of tyrants is prescribed by the endurance of those they seek to oppress. How much is enough for us? When will we as a people say enough, Enough? We had millions of people marching over the weekend, but we need millions more. When are people going to go from being bystanders to upstand? When are people going to go from just sitting back and doing nothing and understanding that is the only thing necessary for bad people to be triumphant, is for good people to do nothing? When are we going to realize that the wisdom of Martin Luther King, that what we are ultimately going to have to repent for in this day and age, it's not just the vigilic words or violent actions of bad people, but the appalling silence, an inaction of good people. It's time for everybody to say enough is enough. As. As another great activist, Sojourner Truth, that I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired, and we need to all get out there and do more and demand more and make government finally bend to the will of the people.
- [17:22]
Ben Meiselas
The Midas Touch podcast is also the most downloaded and watched podcast in Canada. Our fans in Canada call themselves the Maple Midas, and they're very worried about the constant threats of annexation. And they don't even view Trump's rhetoric as just like a trade war. They're like, those are actual words of war when you talk about taking over our country. And what they've conveyed to me is the same way Putin uses denazification to invade Ukraine, Trump's pretext of all the Canadians or drug dealers bringing in fentanyl. That's why we need to annex it. They're like, that's the Putin tax tactic. That's the war tactic. We don't find this funny. We don't think this is a joke. We take it seriously. They're boycotting tourism. They're boycotting American products, which is hurting our economy. And so what are you hearing, though? Like, one. What do you say to all the Canadians out there who are like, what the heck has happened to the United States? What are you hearing from foreign leaders in general about this, this moment where they feel betrayed by a country that used to be their top ally and the leader of the free world?
- [18:26]
Cory Booker
Well, first of all, God bless The Canadians, their strength and their resolve, their unwillingness to kowtow to this petty threats by Donald Trump. God bless our northern neighbors, because in many ways, their strength is our strength. I stand for America. And what is in America's interest is to stand with. Perhaps their strongest ally throughout my lifetime has been the Canadians. But in terms of what I'm hearing from other leaders, it's painful. It is painful. On the Foreign Relations Committee for these past years, I've developed great relationships with everybody from European leaders to African leaders, Middle east leaders and more. And all of them will say to me in private that they have for their lifetime looked to America for light and example. They know that we are not a perfect nation. They know that we have made real mistakes, but they have never believed that our intentions weren't noble, our intentions weren't good. This is the first time they really are questioning American intent. And seeing a president that was elected once, you know that, fool me once, shame on, shame on, shame on you. But fool me twice, get elected twice, shame on you Americans. And I'm hearing that from a lot of folks who just are so disappointed that our country, knowing who he is, would allow him to the presidency again, for him to shake up not just the rules based world order, but at a time that authoritarian governments are on the rise and you're seeing democracies decline, seeing democratic traditions under assault. They just can't believe that America, the United States of America, would be part and parcel of the undermining of the values and principles of free democracies.
- [20:25]
Ben Meiselas
People are afraid also to take trips here for tourism or just to travel here for work from foreign countries. They're afraid that they'll get sent into an ICE detention center with no due process. They can get kidnapped and sent to El Salvador's maximum prison facility, which frankly looks like a concentration camp and how that's set up to hard labor camp in there. Right. And then the Supreme Court, which has been a massive disappointment, seems to be, you know, delaying and on procedural grounds, you know, not making, you know, at least a firm position. I mean, they did say habeas petitions as it relates, but it's going to be hard for migrants to find lawyers to do habeas petitions right away. And. But what do you make of what the Supreme Court's ruled recently and just what's going on with these, I call them kidnappings and then sending people to El Salvador.
- [21:24]
Cory Booker
You know, look, we are, we are far more connected on this planet and in this nation than we realize. I, I think that, goodness Decency, mercy, grace, it. It's a. These are viral spirits. In fact, I. I know at Stanford, they have a researcher that has shown that doing one act of kindness, even like walking down the street and bending up, down and picking up that piece of trash, not realizing that people are seeing you do that, actually could affect the behavior of people. Three degrees separation. So I always tell people, use your power. Be a force of good and kindness and decency in a world that really needs more of it. The problem is, is that meanness, cruelty, can also be viral as well. And we now have in the White House somebody who does not embody the best of our virtues, doesn't embody the kind of ideals that we want to see in this world. And I tell you, the echoes of presidents of past George Washington, I cannot tell a lie. Well, we have a president now that cannot tell the truth. In the midst of the most divisive period imaginable in our country's history, the Civil War, you had a president stand up and said, with malice towards none and charity towards all, when yet now we have a president that is all about malice and doesn't know charity, that spirit at all. You had Presidents that said, Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. And now you have a president saying, hey, Mr. Putin, have that Ukraine. I'll support you. If we're having negotiations for, quote, unquote, peace, we'll start the negotiation. And giving away 20% of your land that was taken by this authoritarian leader, I could go on and on and on. President Nick Kennedy said, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Well, Trump, clearly, the way he's treating law firms, the way he's treating corporations, ask not what you can do for your country. It's ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what you could do for Donald Trump. What tribute can you pay? How will you supplicate yourself before me? What will you offer me so I will take my personal vendetta that I'm directing towards you away? This is a very dangerous time with a president that is, in so many ways, not just assaulting Social Security and Medicare and veterans and senior citizens. He is actually assaulting the very dignity and values and virtues of our nation. We are a good people. But this president is acting in betrayal of that. Now, this goes also to the reality that I'm hoping more Americans are realizing it is a fundamental truth that this idea of due process written in our Constitution doesn't say American citizens, It says to. It says Due process is for all people. Now, I've heard Anton Scalia, a conservative justice, speak to this point about the importance of due process. And so when you disappear somebody off of a street and the next time you see them is in one of the most awful prisons, and that person's due process was completely violated, and even our government admits they made a mistake. If you think that that's all that is horrible what's happening to those people over there. I want you to know that if you attack the due process rights of anyone in our country, you are jeopardizing the due process rights of everyone in our country. If they could disappear. A man who came here, a gay human being who's escaping violence and discrimination, is on the street and was disappeared in the way he was. Do not fool yourself that this is paving a way, creating a slippery slope for the violations that you hold, a violation of the values you hold here, and you're very. Due process. These are extraordinarily dangerous times, and we need to be waking folks up to know that the rights that he is taking away from others are putting directly in jeopardy the rights that you hold most dear as an American.
- [25:45]
Ben Meiselas
You mentioned how you sit on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. One of Donald Trump's promises was that on day one, there would be peace in Ukraine. In fact, he said it would be so easy because he was close to Putin and Zelensky, that it would be the easiest thing to do. In fact, before day one, he said that there would be peace. Well, here we are. April 8, 2025. It seems all the Trump regime has done is empowered Putin. Fortunately, I think Europe has been rallying and holding these coalition of the willing meetings in France and the UK to help Zelensky and show you ain't gonna do bilateral US Trump regime and Putin. We're here with them, so we're either included or there ain't gonna be a deal. But what are you seeing? Where do we stand? April 8, 2025.
- [26:33]
Cory Booker
And again, I get a chance to meet every once in a while these veterans from World War II. And it's very moving when you meet them, especially people that faced unimaginable challenges fighting the Nazis. You know, we're the country that, you know, bled on those beaches in Europe. I've seen fields of. Of cemeteries of Americans who gave their lives and fight in the fight against fascism, the fight against authoritarians who thought they could conquer the world, take on weaker countries. I'll tell you, you meet these veterans and you're reminded that who we are at our core, we're the nation of the Berlin airlift. We're the nation of the Marshall Plant. We are this nation that has so much nobility in our stands against the bully, against the authoritarian leader. And it is so insulting now to watch Donald Trump suddenly kowtow, talk about how much he respects and admires somebody like Putin and how much he insults somebody like Zelensky. We are the country that condemns dictators and defends heroes. And Donald Trump seems to have that twisted. And so I am proud to see other democratic nations rallying together. And I am looking forward to the time where we could end this time of Trump and rejoin a community of nations and provide leadership and example again in this world. But that's not going to happen inevitably. It's only going to happen if we show the same kind of strength that foot soldiers for justice and freedom did in the past. And not just foot soldiers at war, but foot soldiers here at home. Foot soldiers in the suffrage movement and the labor movement, in the civil rights movement and in the abolitionist movement. Foot soldiers in the disabilities rights movements and the LGBTQ movements. Every great stride against oppression, against tyranny, against division, against demagoguery has been led by foot soldiers who are willing to get in good trouble and stand for something. And this is one of those calls. This is that kind of moral moment in American history right now where future generations are going to ask, what did you do? Where did you stand? Well, I knew where my grandparents stood from their war bonds they bought to the victory gardens they had my grandfather working on the little run bomber assembly line in Michigan. I know where my parents stood. My mom was at a sit in Charlotte, bring the indignities of people that wouldn't serve them. I know where my parents generation stood on the march on Washington and more. But we are not going to be called the storm beaches in Normandy. We're not going to be called to get on freedom rides knowing that our buses will be bombed or do marches, knowing we'll get beaten like they did on the Edmund Pettus Bridge. But this is still our test. This is still our time. This is still our moment. I believe from what I saw this past week, that the movement is now growing, that people are realizing the moment is now here. But folks like you, frankly, and folks like me have to do more and more, everything that we can to try to be one in that number of folks that are inspiring action at a time that we so urgently need it.
- [29:50]
Ben Meiselas
Senator Cory Booker, thank you so much for joining us. First time on the Midas Touch podcast. We appreciate you.
- [29:55]
Cory Booker
We hope you come back. I appreciate you. I hope you'll have me back. But I'm really thankful. What I said is really sincere. You all have become such a powerful voice in doing the things I tell my office that we should be doing all the time. Informing people, engaging people, inspiring people, and most importantly, activating others. Because a real test of leadership, which I think you guys are showing, is not saying, hey, follow me. I'm your leader. The real test of leadership, I think, is what you are showing is reminding people, as Ella Baker said, that you are the leaders, we are the leaders we've been looking for. And I have a responsibility to lead in a time of trouble like this.
- [30:30]
Ben Meiselas
We appreciate you. We appreciate your leadership in the Senate, and we hope to have you back soon. Everybody hit subscribe. Let's get to 5 million. Thank you so much.
- [30:39]
Cory Booker
Thank you. Take care now.
- [30:40]
Ben Meiselas
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