The MeidasTouch Podcast

Episode: Trump FBI Director Implodes Under Cross-Exam at House Hearing
Date: September 18, 2025

Overview

In this episode, the Meiselas brothers dissect the explosive and controversial House hearing featuring FBI Director Kash Patel. The hearing centers on Patel's handling (or alleged mishandling) of the Jeffrey Epstein investigation, specifically regarding the contents and transparency of the "Epstein files" and the alleged presence of Donald Trump’s name within them. The episode is packed with pointed cross-examinations from various Democratic members of Congress and a few Republicans, putting Patel under intense scrutiny. The podcast provides a blow-by-blow analysis of the juiciest moments and the broader implications for democracy, transparency, and justice.

Key Discussion Points and Segments

1. Setting the Stage: Democrats Put Pressure on Kash Patel

Timestamps: 00:28–01:38

• Democrats aggressively question Patel, accusing him and Trump of covering up information relating to Epstein’s sex trafficking ring.
• Notable moment: Rep. Lofgren grilling Patel about how many times Trump’s name appears in the Epstein files.
  • “How many times did the President’s name appear?” (Congressmember Thomas Massie, 01:31)
  • Patel dodges: “I don’t know.” (Kash Patel, 01:34)

2. Withholding Evidence & Legal Evasions

Timestamps: 02:02–03:19

• Rep. Dan Goldman (a former prosecutor) presses Patel to explain why the FBI isn’t releasing witness statements or unsealing files.
• Patel claims everything “legally” releasable has already been made public.
  • “Why are you not going to the court like you did for the grand jury testimony to unseal those records?” (Moderator/Goldman, 02:44)
  • Patel repeatedly evades, leading to accusations of a cover-up.
• Goldman bluntly: “You are hiding the Epstein files. You are part of the COVID up.” (Moderator/Host, 02:58)
• Patel finally: “Any allegations that I’m a part of a cover up to protect child sexual trafficking and victims of human trafficking and sexual crimes is patently and categorically false.” (Kash Patel, 03:06)

3. Cross-Examination Highlights: The Trump Questions

Timestamps: 03:42–06:46

• Rep. Eric Swalwell’s sustained questioning about whether Trump’s name is in the Epstein files or if Trump was ever told that it was.
  • Patel repeatedly dodges simple yes/no questions.
  • Swalwell: “Did you tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump’s name is in the Epstein files? Yes or no?” (Eric Swalwell, 04:21)
  • Patel, dodging: “Why don’t you try spelling it out?” (Kash Patel, 04:27)
  • Swalwell, frustrated: “We will take your evasiveness as a consciousness of guilt.” (Eric Swalwell, 05:00)
• Swalwell presses on the number of Trump mentions in the files.
  • “So it could at least be a thousand times. Is that right?” (Eric Swalwell, 05:19)
  • Patel: “The number is a total misleading factor... I don’t know the number, but it’s not that.” (Kash Patel, 05:30, 05:57)
• Rep. Swalwell: “Do you think it might be your job to know the number?” (06:02)

4. The Informant Question and Forgery Claims

Timestamps: 07:11–08:47

• Swalwell asks if Trump ever acted as an FBI informant about Epstein (“Donald Trump has not been... an informant of the FBI.” — Kash Patel, 07:16).
• Rep. Jared Moskowitz demands to know if the FBI will investigate an alleged forgery on a photograph tied to Trump’s signature.
  • “Will you be opening up an investigation into the Epstein estate for putting out a fake document with the President’s signature...?” (Moderator/Moskowitz, 08:02)
  • Patel: “Sure, I’ll do it.” (Kash Patel, 08:37)
  • Moskowitz: “Okay. I look forward to that investigation.” (Moderator/Host, 08:38)

5. “Charged Names” vs. Uncharged Suspects & The Cover-Up Claim

Timestamps: 08:47–10:23

• Moskowitz exposes Patel’s narrowing of the “names in the files” down to those officially charged—only Epstein and Maxwell.
• Moskowitz: “Other than Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, your testimony is... the number of names is zero.” (Moderator/Host, 09:57)
• Patel: "That were charged based on credible evidence.” (Kash Patel, 10:07)
• Criticism: The “co-conspirators”—the uncharged—are never named or outed.

6. Alleged Past Hypocrisy: Roll the Tape

Timestamps: 10:32–12:22

• Rep. Jamie Raskin uses Patel’s own past appearances and statements against him, showing he used to advocate for full disclosure of the Epstein files.
  • Patel (in a past clip): “Put on your big boy pants and let us know who the pedophiles are.” (11:25)
  • Raskin hammers the apparent about-face: now that Patel’s director, he shields, rather than reveals.

7. The Black Book: Who Controls It?

Timestamps: 11:47–12:32

• Patel admitted previously that the "black book" is under the direct control of the FBI Director, yet continues to insist that all has been released.

8. The Director Hasn't Even Reviewed It All

Timestamps: 13:45–14:20

• Shock revelation: Patel admits he has not personally read all the Epstein files.
  • Swalwell calls it out: “You’re the director of the FBI. This is the largest sex trafficking case... and your testimony today is you have not reviewed all the files.” (Eric Swalwell, 14:09)

9. Rep. Thomas Massie Pushes from the Right

Timestamps: 15:05–18:29

• Massie, a Republican, presses about 302 documents (FBI witness interviews), asking if Patel or DOJ have gone after powerful men named in victim statements—Patel can’t or won’t answer directly.
• Massie: “If you’re willing to meet with social media influencers... will you meet with the victims as well?” (Thomas Massie, 17:06)
• Patel: “The FBI will meet with anyone who has new information.” (17:09), but refuses personal meeting.

10. Who Is on the Client List? Direct Dodging

Timestamps: 19:13–20:12

• Rep. Ted Lieu: “Is Prince Andrew on Epstein’s client list?... Is Donald Trump on Epstein’s client list?” (19:19, 19:36)
• Patel: “The index has been released and the index will speak for itself.” (Kash Patel, 19:38)
• Lieu: “America, huge red flag—the FBI director could not answer, gentlemen, whether Donald Trump was on Epstein.” (Ted Lieu, 19:41)

11. Photos and Messages: What Exists, What’s Hidden?

Timestamps: 19:57–21:11

• Lieu asks: Are there photos of Trump with underage girls? Patel: “No.” (20:17)
• Lieu (citing the secret birthday message discovered by the Wall Street Journal): “That’s just not true... Certainly you weren’t there at the search... Maybe someone has it. Maybe the Epstein estate has it.” (20:51)
• Lieu pushes on FBI’s responsibility to subpoena tapes from journalist Michael Wolff—Patel dodges.

12. Awareness and Empathy Gaps

Timestamps: 21:28–23:13

• Rep. Jayapal raises the ages of victims—Patel attempts to move away.
• Kamloger Dove is shocked that Patel, as FBI Director, doesn't know who Dylann Roof is, suggesting lack of seriousness or awareness about racism and mass violence.
  • "Can you give me some more information? Head of the FBI. You probably know this..." (Kash Patel/cross-examiner, 22:20)

13. Subpoenas and Accountability

Timestamps: 22:54–23:13

• Lieu again: "Would it be great if FBI subpoenaed the estate of Jeffrey Epstein for all that information?"
• Patel counters: "The estate is under no obligation to provide that material, even pursuant to a subpoena... literally not how it works." (Kash Patel, 23:13, 23:27)
• Lieu: "That's just false. You're the freaking FBI. You can subpoena information from this estate and you better do that." (Ted Lieu, 23:21)

14. The Danger of Faux Equivalency and Whataboutism

Timestamps: 23:36–24:43

• Moskowitz cautions about “painting the whole left” or whole right with one brush, criticizing extremism on both sides.
  • “There are extremes on the left and there are extremes on the right and we collectively should tackle that. But to come here and just look at us and say we all support what’s going on in the extremes is why we can’t solve anything in this building.” (Moskowitz, 24:29)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Swalwell to Patel: “We will take your evasiveness as a consciousness of guilt.” (05:00)
• Patel’s dodge: “Why don’t you try spelling it out?... Use the Alphabet.” (04:27)
• Patel admitting limited review: “I have reviewed not the entirety of the files. ... No.” (14:01–14:08)
• Moskowitz’s sarcasm: “Okay. I look forward to that investigation.” (08:38)
• Patel on releasing names: “We are not releasing the names of anyone because the Department of Justice never does that of anyone that didn’t have any credible information.” (10:14)
• The “big boy pants” quote: “Put on your big boy pants and let us know who the pedophiles are.” (11:25; past Kash Patel)
• Lieu’s disbelief: “That’s just false. You’re the freaking FBI. You can subpoena information from this estate and you better do that.” (23:21)
• Kamloger Dove’s incredulity: “Head of the FBI. You probably know this. ...It was national news.” (22:20)

Takeaways & Analysis

• Partisan Tensions: The hearing was deeply divided, with Democrats relentlessly pressing for transparency on Trump’s connection to Epstein and Republicans generally protecting Patel, with some exceptions.
• Director on Defense: Patel frequently dodges or obfuscates, at times snarky or defiant, showing growing frustration as pointed questions multiply. His lack of first-hand familiarity with the files is considered a “shocking revelation” by the MeidasTouch hosts and guests.
• Hypocrisy Highlighted: Patel’s change of tune from transparency advocate to obstructionist is hammered home by the panel and committee members.
• Obstacles to Justice Remain: The “black book” and uncharged co-conspirators remain shrouded, with Patel refusing to personally meet with victims.
• Broader Message: The episode underscores the challenges facing the American justice system in holding the powerful accountable, and the continued fight for transparency and democracy.

Recommended Segments for Listening

• Rep. Swalwell’s relentless questioning: 03:42–06:46
• Moskowitz’s “forgery” investigation moment: 08:01–08:47
• Lieu’s “client list” standoff: 19:13–20:21
• Patel’s “big boy pants” hypocrisy: 10:43–12:22

For listeners seeking highlights, focus on the cross-examinations by Reps. Swalwell, Moskowitz, Lieu, Massie, and Raskin for the most impactful moments.

Tone

The tone is fast, urgent, direct, and often acerbic—punctuated by dark humor and earnest outrage from both questioners and the podcast hosts. The Meiselas brothers bring their signature mix of legal savvy, skepticism, and biting wit to the recap, calling out what they see as hypocrisy and dangerous double standards at the highest levels of government.

Summary crafted for clarity and completeness. Direct quotes are provided with speaker attribution and timestamps. All ad and non-content segments are omitted.