Trump Top Pick Falls Apart Under Cross Exam at Hearing

Summary

Podcast Summary: The MeidasTouch Podcast

Episode: Trump Top Pick Falls Apart Under Cross Exam at Hearing
Date: July 16, 2026
Hosts: Ben, Brett, and Jordy Meiselas

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Overview

This episode centers on intense Senate confirmation hearings for Dr. Erica Schwartz, Donald Trump’s nominee for CDC Director, marked by fierce cross-examination from Democratic senators. The discussion exposes Schwartz’s evasive answers on vaccine policy, public health priorities, and her willingness to stand up to political interference—illuminating wider concerns about the Trump administration’s approach to public health and the politicization of science. The episode flows with the brothers’ trademark banter, skepticism, and unapologetic defense of science and democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Erica Schwartz’s Confirmation Hearing Meltdown

Main Issue: Senate cross-examination of Dr. Schwartz regarding her independence and commitment to public health, especially vaccines.

• Senator Hassan’s Hardline Questions

  • Pressed Schwartz on whether she would comply if ordered to halt flu vaccine promotion during a deadly flu season.
  • Schwartz repeatedly dodged, refusing a direct “yes” or “no”.
  • Hassan: “Yes or no, are you going to protect our kids or are you going to follow an uninformed order from the Secretary?” (04:11)

• Schwartz’s Non-Answers and Evasion

  • Claimed not to “speak in hypotheticals”—even when presented with real past events.
  • Repeatedly deferred to “priorities” and budget excuses, ignoring direct questions on children’s safety.

• Senator Hassan’s Closing Rebuke:

  • Disappointment at Schwartz’s lack of commitment:
    “The money was in the budget. It was there, and it protects and saves lives. And your answer is really disappointing.” (04:41)

2. Question of Legal and Moral Responsibility

• Senator Hassan:
  • Challenged Schwartz to choose between the law and presidential directives—even citing Trump’s known history of encouraging illegality.
  • Schwartz continued to vaguely insist, “The President would never ask me to not follow the law. But I will always follow the law.” (05:33)
  • Hassan underscored, “There are multiple examples of the President actively instructing people to break the law…” (05:41)

3. Confusion about Job Description and Independence

• Who Decides Vaccine Recommendations?
  • Hassan clarified CDC Director is at the top of the vaccine recommendation chain.
  • Schwartz equivocated, suggesting the Secretary (RFK Jr.) has final say.
  • Hassan corrected: “The buck stops with the CDC director when it comes to vaccine recommendations.” (07:28)
  • Raised concerns that Schwartz did not understand—or refused to acknowledge—the core function of her prospective job.

4. Impact of Political Interference in Science

• Senator Sanders’s Cross-Examination:

  • Highlighted that the previous CDC director was fired for refusing to promote the administration’s anti-vaccine agenda.
  • Asked Schwartz to commit to reporting to Congress any unscientific or dangerous orders.
  • Schwartz: “I do not believe that the President or the secretary would ever do what you just mentioned.” (11:13)

• Sanders on Vaccine-Autism Misinformation:

  • Cited strong scientific consensus debunking vaccine-autism links.
  • Sanders: “The evidence is overwhelming that vaccines do not cause autism. Do you accept that evidence?” (13:20)
  • Schwartz: “I do accept that evidence, Senator.” (13:32) Yet waffled when asked about removing misinformation from CDC’s website, again deferring to Secretary Kennedy.

5. Senator Ossoff’s Viral Interrogation of Jay Clayton (ODNI Pick)

• Spotlighted Trump’s nominee for Director of National Intelligence, Jay Clayton.
• Ossoff pressed Clayton to answer who won the 2020 election.
• Clayton stonewalled, refusing a simple fact-based answer.
• Ossoff: “You refuse to answer a basic question about who won a presidential election, but you ask to lead America's intelligence community. Isn't it humiliating to be unable to answer this question?” (16:30)

6. Senator Rochester on Vaccine Mandates and Military Outbreaks

• Inquired about CDC’s lack of response during flu and measles outbreaks due to changed vaccine policies.
• Schwartz touted her support for vaccines but equivocated on reinstating vaccine campaigns, claiming she needed to consult with career scientists.
• Rochester: “Will you publicly urge Americans to get vaccinated?”
  • Schwartz: “Absolutely… I am an occupational medicine physician. I have been vaccinating people throughout my entire 25 year plus career...” (19:46)
• Rochester bluntly noted her concerns despite Schwartz’s qualifications, calling US comparisons to Danish vaccine policies “ridiculous.” (21:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Senator Hassan grilling Schwartz:

  • “If Secretary Kennedy ordered you to stop promoting the flu vaccine during a deadly flu season, would you carry out that order?” (02:38)
  • “It is the buck stops with the CDC director when it comes to vaccine recommendations.” (07:28)

• Senator Sanders on Autism Disinformation:

  • “The evidence is overwhelming that vaccines do not cause autism. Do you accept that evidence?” (13:20)

• Jay Clayton’s Evasion:

  • Ossoff presses: “Who won the 2020 election?” (15:31, 16:21, 16:30)
  • Clayton: “I’m not going to engage in the theater.” (15:51)

• Senator Rochester's Closing:

  • “While I think you are immensely qualified, I am very, very concerned.” (21:44)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Democratic cross-examination of Dr. Schwartz (Opening): 01:46 – 08:50
• Senator Sanders presses on anti-vax agenda: 10:24 – 14:27
• Senator Ossoff’s confrontation with Jay Clayton: 15:13 – 17:05
• Senator Rochester on military flu outbreaks & measles: 17:15 – 21:44

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Tone and Style

The brothers’ signature blend of humor, incredulity, and advocacy shapes the coverage. With heavy skepticism toward Dr. Schwartz and Trump’s nominees, they amplify Senate criticisms, lampoon evasive answers, and urge their audience to remain vigilant for democracy and scientific truth.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a deep dive into Trump administration health policy, CDC leadership, and the importance of defending science from political interference. The grilling of Dr. Schwartz and Trump’s other nominees reveals what the hosts see as alarming patterns of non-answers, misinformation, and abdication of public duty—raising urgent questions about America’s democratic and scientific safeguards.

Transcript

[Sports Commentator]

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[Political Commentator]

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[Political Commentator]

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[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

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[Senator Hassan]

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[Podcast Host]

Democrats intensely cross examining one of Donald Trump's top picks. This time Trump's latest pick to be CDC director. Don't Dr. Erica Schwartz, after Trump's prior CDC pick was fired for not immediately authorizing flavored vapes which was a major priority of the Trump regime. Get those flavored vapes in the hands of little children. So let me show you what went down as Dr. Schwartz was cross examined by Senator Bernie Sanders by Democratic Senator Hassan. Let me start off with Democratic Senator Hassan. This was not a Good day for Dr. Schwartz who showed what a hack she is. Watch as she crashes and burns under cross examination from Senator Hassan. Let's play it.

[Senator Hassan]

Dr. Schwartz, the CDC director is responsible for protecting Americans and especially children from life threatening disease outbreaks. If Secretary Kennedy ordered you to stop promoting the flu vaccine during a deadly flu season, would you carry out that order?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Senator, when I was the Deputy Surgeon General, I worked at the office of the Surgeon General. And one of the things that was very concerning was that the Surgeon General had a number of campaigns, public health campaigns that he wanted to do, and yet we had very limited resources.

[Senator Hassan]

I'm asking you a different question. And I have limited time. So if you are instructed to stop promoting the flu vaccine during a deadly flu season, would you carry out that order? Yes or no?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

We had to prioritize what we could, focus on what we couldn't.

[Senator Hassan]

Look, I'm going to stop you. Again, this isn't a hypothetical question. The flu season last year killed almost 300 children. And we have clear data from the CDC that the best way to save children's lives is by giving them the flu vaccine. Nevertheless, in the middle of the deadly flu outbreak last year, Secretary Kennedy personally directed the CDC to immediately stop all. All promotion of the flu vaccine, including promotion campaigns that were already planned and paid for. So I want to give you a chance to answer again. If the Secretary ordered you to stop promoting the flu vaccine during a deadly flu season for children, would you carry out that order? Yes or no?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

So, Senator, you know I don't speak in hypotheticals, but I.

[Senator Hassan]

This isn't a hypothetical. It happened. And I've got the email if you want to see it later. So, yes or no, are you going to protect our kids or are you going to follow an uninformed order from the Secretary?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Senator, I will always, always protect our children.

[Senator Hassan]

So you, you would refuse that order? Yes or no?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Senator, my understanding of what happened back then was that the Secretary has. He has various priorities. And as he's. As he's looking at his priorities in terms of what to fund, what not to fund, that's.

[Senator Hassan]

I'm sorry, that's not acceptable. You just heard Senator Kaine talk about the appropriations process. The money was in the budget. It was there, and it protects and saves lives. And your answer is really disappointing.

[Podcast Host]

Let's go on to more cross examination here from Senator Hassan. As Dr. Schwartz says, Donald Trump and RFK would never ask me to violate the law. That's not in their character. They would never, I would never believe they would say to me to violate what my job requires of me. You replay this clip.

[Senator Hassan]

Dr. Schwartz, just a few minutes ago, you said, in response to a question from Senator Kaine, you will always follow the law. Mr. Coffman, I assume that you would say the same thing.

[Podcast Advertiser]

That is correct.

[Senator Hassan]

So just to Be clear, if the President of the United States instructs you to take an action that would break the law, will you follow the law or follow the President's instruction?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Dr. Schwartz, the President would never ask me to not follow the law. But I will always follow the law.

[Senator Hassan]

Mr. Kaufman.

[Senator Rochester]

Follow the law.

[Senator Hassan]

Thank you. And Dr. Schwartz, there are multiple examples of the President actively instructing people to break the law over and over again. So I hope you will update yourself on that because it's not a satisfactory response to say he would never do that.

[Podcast Host]

The way. Great questioning here by Senator Hassan. More cross examination here. Who says, you know, if confirmed, you'd be at the top of the food chain when it comes to vaccine recommendations. You know that right? To which Dr. Schwartz goes, I think that's actually RFK Jr. S role. To which Senator Hassan goes, no, that's your job. CDC Director, vaccine recommendations. That's what you do. You do not know what your job even is. Dr. Schwartz. Here, play this clip.

[Senator Hassan]

Federal regulations and decades of precedent make it clear that if confirmed, you would be at the top of the chain of command for vaccine recommendations to the public in the United States. So, Dr. Schwartz, do you agree that you will be at the top of the chain of command with regard to final vaccine recommendations?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Senator, my understanding is when the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices makes a recommendation regarding vaccines, they've been doing this since the 1960s. The CDC takes those recommendations. We will, the CDC director will work with this career scientist, work with the Chief Medical Officer of the CDC to analyze those recommendations, look at the evidence that the ACIP used to make those recommendations, and then the CDC director certainly can make that decision regarding should they accept or not accept those recommendations. But I also understand, and I could be wrong on this, that the Secretary ultimately has the policy decision regarding that.

[Senator Hassan]

Let me update you. The President here is clear. And even the recent charter that Secretary Kennedy's new ACIP will operate under makes clear that the recommendations go to the CDC director. The CDC director, after consultation, examining the recommendations, all the things you just said, decides whether to adopt those recommendations. And then the charter says they inform the Secretary. It is the buck stops with the CDC director when it comes to vaccine recommendations. So do you commit that you will consider and make decisions on vaccine recommendations from scientific experts without political interference from outside the chain of command, including Secretary Kennedy or President Trump?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Senator, your premise is interesting. I don't think the Secretary or the President would do what you just said, but you have commitment to follow the science wherever the science may lead The

[Senator Hassan]

Secretary has interfered with vaccine recommendations to the point that he has dismantled ACIP and rewritten the charter in an attempt to provide a particular scientific, or I would say unscientific view on vaccine safety. It is outrageous and it is making us less safe. And I hope very much, if you are confirmed, that you will stand up to that kind of political interference. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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[Podcast Host]

Then we heard from Senator Bernie Sanders who brought the House down. Senator Sanders, great cross examination here and he just says look, CDC directors was fired for a lot of reasons but also failing to approve Kennedy's anti vax agenda. So you're going to be filling in that role. What you what say you? What say you? Here, play this clip end quote.

[Political Commentator]

Within days the CDC director was fired for failing to approve Secretary Kennedy's anti vaccine agenda. Dr. Schwartz, if confirmed, will you commit that you will report to Congress if you receive Directives from Secretary Kennedy or any other individual in the Trump administration to implement policies that are unscientific and could harm the health and well being of the American people.

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Senator, I do not believe that the President or the secretary would ever do what you just mentioned.

[Sports Commentator]

Really?

[Political Commentator]

Do you think that is the record? He would not do that?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Is that what you're saying, Senator? That I do not think that the Secretary or the president would ask me to do something like that.

[Political Commentator]

Okay. Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

Now, Senator Sanders says, you know, when RFK Jr says spreads all of this disinformation about autism and, you know, particularly with people who have someone in their family who has autism, RFK Jr. S junk science is really dangerous. It's really. It's really, really dangerous. What say you? Here, play this clip.

[Political Commentator]

According to the American Medical association, which represents over 270,000 doctors, quote, an abundance of evidence from decades of scientific studies shows no link between vaccines and autism. In fact, there have been more than 40 scientific studies in seven countries involving over 5 million people finding that there is no link between vaccines and autism. Yet today, the CDC has published false information on its website suggesting that childhood vaccines cause autism. Dr. Schwartz, do you agree the existing scientific evidence shows vaccines do not cause autism? If confirmed, will you commit to removing information on the CDC website suggesting a link between vaccines and autism?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Senator, we do not know what causes autism. One in 33 children have a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, and we owe it to the American people to figure out why the President has asked Secretary Kennedy to find out what is causing autism.

[Political Commentator]

I don't have a lot of time, and we all want to find the cause of autism. The evidence is overwhelming that vaccines do not cause autism. Do you accept that evidence?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

I do accept that evidence. Senator,

[Political Commentator]

if confirmed, will you commit to removing information on the CDC website suggesting a link between vaccines and autism?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

If confirmed, Senator, you have my commitment that I will look at that exact website. I have not seen that. I will speak with the secretary to understand why, but the secretary has put

[Political Commentator]

that stuff up there. What I'm asking you is will you remove information which suggests a link between vaccines and autism?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Senator, I have been in many situations where I have had to go to my superiors in the military to have conversations, very difficult conversations about things that may not have been. That may have been concerning to the troops or to the military personnel. And I will do the same with the secretary. I will go to the secretary.

[Political Commentator]

I just have a brief moment while

[Podcast Host]

we're on the topic, too. I know I showed this video yesterday, but Right down the hall, there was another hearing of Donald Trump's DNI Director of National Intelligence, this guy Jay Clayton, who Donald Trump wants to have in that role, who's currently the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, covering up the Epstein files there. That's who Trump now wants to be the Director of National Intelligence. I just, I got to show you this cross exam one more time. I'll do the short clip of Senator Ossoff cross examining Jay Clayton. He's the guy who the Trump regime wants to now lead odni, the office for the Director of National Intelligence, in essence, the top national intelligence position in our country here. Let's play this clip.

[Senator Ossoff]

Who won the 2020 election?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

You know, I'm not going to do this with you.

[Senator Ossoff]

This is a job interview. We have established that you have an obligation to honestly and forthright with the committee. Yes. You do have an obligation to be honest and forthright with the committee.

[Political Commentator]

Yes.

[Senator Ossoff]

Who won the 2020 election?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Like I said, I'm not. I'm not going to get into that with you.

[Senator Ossoff]

But you do have an obligation to be honest and forthright with the committee.

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Is anything that I just said not honest or forthright?

[Senator Ossoff]

Yes. You're not being honest or forthright. Who won the election?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

We can keep doing this.

[Senator Ossoff]

Well, we're going to keep doing it because you're not being honest and forthright.

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

I'm not going to engage in, in the theater.

[Senator Ossoff]

It's a simple question, Mr. Clayton, and I've answered. Who won the 2020 presidential election?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

I've answered it.

[Senator Ossoff]

You're here asking for the support of senators to lead America's intelligence community. We've established that you have an obligation to be honest and forthright with this committee and with the American public. But you refuse to answer a simple matter of fact about the 2020 election. Is that right?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

No, that's not right.

[Senator Ossoff]

Then answer the question. Who won the 2020 election?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

I have answered the question.

[Senator Ossoff]

Answer it. What is your answer?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

I've given you my answer.

[Senator Ossoff]

What is your answer? You refuse to answer a basic question about who won a presidential election, but you asked to lead America's intelligence community. Isn't it humiliating to be unable to answer this question? To have to indulge the President's delusions? We know you know. Everybody in this room knows the truthful answer to that question. Why can you not give it?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

I think I gave you the answer.

[Senator Rochester]

Oh.

[Podcast Host]

Before we go, may I share with you some great questioning by Senator Rochester of Delaware? Cross examining Dr. Schwartz here play this clip.

[Senator Rochester]

But I also know that in April, Secretary Hegseth, our Defense Secretary, rolled back the flu vaccine mandate that had been in place in the United States since World War II. I guess my first question is it was widely reported that unsurprisingly a major flu outbreak occurred at Lackland Air Force Base in Texas that prompted the Pentagon to then restore the flu vaccine requirements for new military recruits. So my question is, would you have advised Secretary Hegseth against the decision to roll back the flu vaccine mandate for American troops, particularly as we talk about readiness for our troops?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Senator, I really don't like speaking in hypotheticals, but what I will tell you

[Senator Rochester]

is so let's not speak as a hypothetical. Let's say you are actually in line to be the next CDC director. So you're going to be thought of as a medical expert for this country. Would you advise that?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

So Senator, I believe as a board certified occupational medicine physician, I believe that vaccines are safe and effective. I have personally given thousands of of vaccines to military members for force, health protection and readiness. I do understand that there are some concerns specifically about influenza because it has the 35 to 57% effectiveness a season to season. So I can understand why certain individuals may have some concerns about mandating a vaccine that is not but it's a good medicine. Not I believe personally that influenza saves lives and vaccine saves lives. But I can understand why there are some concerns concerns about mandating a vaccine that has 35 to 57% effectiveness season to season.

[Senator Rochester]

I want to shift also to the measles outbreak. The CDC did not post a single message in 2025 encouraging people to get vaccinated for measles even as we were in the midst of one of the biggest measles outbreaks in over two decades. The CDC also halted the wild to mild flu vaccine campaign and dramatically scaled back its back to school vaccine education efforts. Will you publicly urge Americans to get vaccinated?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Senator? Absolutely, I am. As I said, I'm an occupational medicine physician. I have been vaccinating people throughout my entire 25 year plus career in the uniformed services. I believe in vaccines, but I do also understand that there's a large swath of Americans who have some vaccine hesitancy concerns and I wanted would you reinstate

[Senator Rochester]

the back to school vaccine campaign?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

So Senator, what I would like to do is make sure that I say

[Senator Rochester]

yes or no if you think you know the answer. If not, you can say you don't know yet.

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

I would actually like to talk to the CDC career scientists to understand what the current resources are, to see if that.

[Senator Rochester]

I only have 14 seconds and it says Senator Moody here. So I'm going to jump to. Can I jump to my last question without questions? For the record, in January, Dr. Oz, Dr. Bhattacharya and Dr. Makary presented a memo to then Acting CDC Director Jim O' Neill recommending the US adopt a narrow childhood vaccine schedule based primarily on a comparison with Denmark. Do you agree with the memo's recommendation to no longer universally recommend all 17 vaccines?

[Dr. Erica Schwartz]

Senator? I agree with the President of the United States who asked HHS to take a look at that said memo and to find out if those recommendations were sound, if they were not sound. So if I'm confirmed as a CDC director, you have my commitment to take a look at that said memo to understand whether comparing to Denmark makes sense or it doesn't make sense, whether the evidence suggests that those six vaccines influenza, Covid, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, meningococci.

[Senator Rochester]

Unfortunately, my time has expired and I want to respect the committee and I know that, Senator Cassidy, we have talked about this issue of vaccines for a while, particularly comparing ourselves to Denmark, which is ridiculous. And I will share with you. While I think you are immensely qualified, I am very, very concerned.

[Podcast Host]

There you have it, everybody. Let me know what you think. Hit subscribe. Let's get to 7 million subscribers. Appreciate you watching breaking news right now. My brothers and I wrote a book. It's called WTF America? And well, doesn't that just say it all. It comes out officially this October, but you can pre order your copy today. Just scan the QR code or click the link in the description below.