Trump Witness Quickly Collapses under Cross-Exam by Dems

Summary

The MeidasTouch Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Trump Witness Quickly Collapses under Cross-Exam by Dems
Date: May 2, 2026
Hosts: Ben, Brett, and Jordy Meiselas
Main Theme:
This episode centers on a congressional hearing where Trump’s EPA head, Lee Zeldin, faced tough cross-examination from multiple Democratic members of Congress, including AOC and Senator Whitehouse. The MeidasTouch brothers break down how Zeldin struggled to answer key questions regarding collusion with big corporations, massive budget cuts, rollback of environmental protections, and the broader implications for American democracy and public health. The episode features extended clips of these exchanges, with commentary on the significance and fallout of the day's testimony.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. AOC's Cross-Examination: Exposing EPA-Corporate Collusion

• [03:37–05:56]
  • AOC (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez) grilled Zeldin about meetings with Bayer regarding glyphosate litigation.
    • Zeldin initially denied discussing legal issues.
    • AOC presented EPA visitor logs and internal emails contradicting his account, showing discussions about Supreme Court actions and regulatory reviews.
    • AOC: "We have documentation here. Emails from your senior advisor for Agricultural Rural affairs saying that you were meeting with the Bayer CEO last year." [04:57]
  • Memorable Moment: AOC skillfully traps Zeldin, exposing EPA's promotional relationship with Bayer.

2. Congressman Menendez: Challenging EPA Favoritism for Big Oil

• [06:20–07:56]
  • Menendez confronts Zeldin about the Trump administration’s alleged $1 billion ask from the oil and gas industry in exchange for regulatory rollbacks.
  • Raises issue of $220M DHS ad campaign benefiting Trump operatives—asks if Zeldin spoke out against such conflicts.
  • Tense Exchange: Menendez and Zeldin repeatedly interrupt each other; Zeldin dodges direct answers.
    • Menendez: "Is that not the work that the EPA is doing today?" [07:12]
    • Zeldin: "Are you actually asking questions?" [07:13]
  • Tone: Accusatory, heated, and combative.

3. Congressmember Landsman: EPA Budget Cuts & Their Impact

• [08:31–11:26]
  • Landsman lays out consequences of a $4.5 trillion spending bill skewed towards the wealthy, massive health care cuts, and a planned 50% EPA budget reduction.
  • Probes Zeldin’s claim that Americans welcome tax cuts at the expense of environmental and health protections.
  • Landsman: "No one's really saying thank you for cutting their health care, for adding trillions." [09:39]
  • Zeldin: "That's how out of touch you are that you believe that Americans are not happy to get more back in their tax return." [09:46]
  • Debates the influence of Project 2025 architect Russ Vought on EPA decisions.
  • Sharp Debate on Real-World Effects: Exposes Zeldin’s detachment from average Americans’ realities.

4. Congressmember Auchincloss: PFAS Pollution and Budget Cuts

• [11:57–14:10]
  • Auchincloss asks how the EPA will address PFAS (“forever chemicals”) with a 90% budget cut, highlighting the lack of available technology for municipal water treatment.
  • Argues that Zeldin’s only hope is congressional earmarks, not a real strategy.
  • Auchincloss: "Hope is not a strategy." [14:10]
  • Reveals the gutted federal investment in clean water.

5. AOC & Zeldin: Fast-Tracking Corporate Waivers and Environmental Health

• [14:24–17:06]
  • AOC brings up EPA’s creation of a fast-track system for companies to request waivers, exposing community risk from lead emissions.
  • Calls out EPA prioritizing corporate profits over children’s health.
  • AOC: "It's $60 million to a company that made $2.7 billion. This administration put the profits of that company over the health of those children." [16:24]
  • Zeldin fails to provide commitment or clear accountability.

6. Senator Whitehouse: Laying Out EPA Favoritism Toward Fossil Fuels

• [17:17–21:09]
  • Whitehouse systematically lists rollbacks benefitting "Trump’s big donors" in oil and coal.
  • Hammers Zeldin on regulatory changes that increase pollution, health care costs, and consumer prices while benefiting major polluters.
    • Whitehouse: "You even set up a special polluter email address that gave polluters a drive up window for exemptions from the Clean Air act..." [19:27]
  • Zeldin obfuscates, fixates on minor math disputes, and dodges direct accountability.
  • Quote: Whitehouse: "All those billions go to your fossil fuel polluters, Trump's big donors. Those are your numbers, Mr. Zeldin." [17:51]

7. Congressmember Harder: Mercury Standards Rollbacks

• [21:13–24:35]
  • Harder presses Zeldin about repealing higher mercury standards and omitting health impacts from the analysis.
  • Zeldin downplays harms, disputes data, and, in frustration, dismisses reports: "Rip it up, have your dog pee on it. It's just not accurate." [24:30]
  • Harder: "You think doubling the amount of mercury pollution... will lead to zero health harms?" [22:56]

8. Senator Whitehouse: Air Quality and Climate Change Denial

• [24:43–25:57]
  • Presses Zeldin on air quality improvements and his administration’s stance on climate change.
  • Hosts note Zeldin’s climate denialism:
    • "He says that climate change is a hoax and doesn't exist." [25:05]
    • Zeldin parrots Trump’s claims, calls climate change policy “a con job.” [25:11]
  • Lays bare the politicization and scientific denial at the agency’s helm.

9. International Context: King Charles's Climate Plea

• [27:10–27:55]
  • The podcast contrasts Zeldin’s denial with King Charles’s public call for climate action, highlighting global stakes and U.S. leadership crisis.
    • King Charles: “We ignore at our peril the fact that these natural systems... provide the foundation for our prosperity and our national security.” [27:12]

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• AOC: “We have documentation here...that Bayer was specifically seeking and discussing Supreme Court action...” [04:57]
• Menendez: “Is that not the work that the EPA is doing today?” [07:12]
• Landsman: “No one's really saying thank you for cutting their health care, for adding trillions.” [09:39]
• Auchincloss: “Hope is not a strategy.” [14:10]
• Whitehouse: “All those billions go to your fossil fuel polluters, Trump's big donors. Those are your numbers, Mr. Zeldin.” [17:51]
• Harder: “You think doubling the amount of mercury pollution in the air is going to lead to zero health harms?” [22:56]
• Zeldin: “Rip it up, have your dog pee on it. It’s just not accurate.” [24:30]
• King Charles: “We ignore at our peril the fact that these natural systems... provide the foundation for our prosperity and our national security.” [27:12]

---

Key Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Start Time | |---------------------------------------|------------| | AOC Cross-examines Zeldin (Bayer) | 03:37 | | Menendez presses Zeldin on Big Oil | 06:20 | | Landsman on Budget & Tax Cuts | 08:31 | | Auchincloss on PFAS & Budget Cuts | 11:57 | | AOC on EPA Waivers & Lead Emission | 14:24 | | Whitehouse: Fossil Fuel Favortism | 17:17 | | Harder: Mercury Standards Rollback | 21:13 | | Whitehouse: Air Quality/Climate Hoax | 24:43 | | Zeldin on Trump EPA Climate Stance | 25:07 | | King Charles Climate Plea | 27:10 |

---

Overall Tone and Takeaway

The tone is urgent, incredulous, and at times, combative. The MeidasTouch bros let the original exchanges speak for themselves, showing a parade of withering, fact-laden questioning from Democrats exposing what they view as Trump EPA’s close alignment with corporate interests and disregard for public health and science. Memorable moments abound, as Lee Zeldin appears flustered, unprepared, and at odds with basic environmental stewardship expectations.

For listeners who missed it:
This episode offers a definitive look at the state of environmental oversight under Trump’s EPA, the sharp contrast with Democratic priorities, and a cautionary tale about what’s at stake for democratic accountability and the planet if regulatory agencies are captured by those they’re supposed to police.

Transcript

[Cachava Advertiser]

Craving the coffee flavor you love, but without the caffeine, Cachava's got you covered with their newest coffee flavor. This all in One Nutrition Shake delivers bold, authentic flavor crafted from premium decaffeinated Brazilian beans. Quality nutrition shouldn't be complicated. Just two scoops of Cachava's all in One Nutrition Shake and you've got 25 grams of protein, 6 grams of fiber, greens and so much more. Whether you're craving that coffee taste to kickstart your morning ritual or as a nutrient packed reward to round out your afternoon, Cachava keeps you fueled and satisfied wherever your day takes you. Plus, it actually tastes delicious. No fillers, no nonsense, just the good stuff your body craves. And for the times you feel like switching it up, you've got seven flavors to choose from, all with the highest quality ingredients. Treat yourself to the flavor and nutrition your body craves. Go to kachava.com and use code news new customers get 15% off their first order. That's K A C-H-A-V-A.com code news when

[Shopify Advertiser]

it's time to scale your business, it's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want. Like all the way. Stack more sales with the best converting checkout on the planet. Track your cha chings from every channel right in one spot and turn real time reporting into big time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial today.

[Grow Therapy Advertiser]

Fresh air, longer days, a chance to reset. This season, let therapy be part of your spring cleaning. Clearing mental clutter, shaking off stuckness and building something better. Grow Therapy helps you get there. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 15th. Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US Offering both virtual and in person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity or availability and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. There are no subscriptions, no long term commitments. You just pay per session. GROW helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit GrowTherapy.com BookNow to get started. That's GrowTherapy.com BookNow GrowTherapy.com BookNow availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan, day or night.

[VRBoCare Advertiser]

VRBoCare is here 24. 7 to help make every part of your stay seamless. If anything comes up or you simply need a little guidance, support is ready whenever you reach out. From the moment you book to the moment you head home. We're here to help things run smoothly because a great trip starts with the right support. And hey, a good playlist doesn't hurt either.

[Narrator/Host]

A top Trump official was stunned into silence during a congressional hearing earlier. Democratic Congresswoman AOC was cross examining EPA head Lee Zeldin and she exposed that he was having private meetings with Bear and other companies in order to promote glyphosate. And he walked right into the trap that AOC set. Watch as she exposed how his epa, how Trump's EPA was engaged in this collusive relationship with big corporations in order to promote glyphosate.

Let's play this clip.

[Congresswoman AOC]

Administrator Zeldin, have you ever participated in a meeting with Bayer where you discussed the legal or litigation issues that the company was facing?

[Lee Zeldin]

No, I never did.

[Congresswoman AOC]

Okay, I have.

[Lee Zeldin]

My meeting with them was very brief and that topic did not come up.

[Congresswoman AOC]

All right, I do. Are you aware of any outreach that they would have in your agency about this?

[Lee Zeldin]

I could say that I directly had a brief meeting, but it was a brief meet and greet and that topic did not come up.

[Congresswoman AOC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, I'd like to submit EPA visitor logs from July 7, 2025 to the Committee without objection, so ordered. And you're certain they didn't bring up anything regarding your work?

[Lee Zeldin]

I'm telling you 100%, absolutely. Maybe there was some brainstorming that was done beforehand of potential topics.

[Congresswoman AOC]

Are you aware of any topic was not brought up? Are you aware of anything brought up to any members of your staff or your team?

[Lee Zeldin]

I am not aware of that, no.

[Congresswoman AOC]

Okay. I would like to submit to the record some internal emails from the EPA that I have acquired via a Freedom of Information act submission that.

Objection, sir.

[Congressman Menendez]

Ordered.

[Congresswoman AOC]

We have documentation here. Emails from your senior advisor for Agricultural Rural affairs saying that you were meeting with the Bayer CEO last year. He said in these emails that they will be bringing up some legal judicial issues. More specifically, in this internal email in your epa, it says that Bayer was specifically seeking and discussing Supreme Court action. It will want an update on EPA's regulatory review and that, interestingly, Bayer will provide a small thanks for updating the glyphosate webpage from the EPA and work On Maha, do you have any idea what they might have been referring to in this email?

[Lee Zeldin]

Well, first off, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, it's possible that the team was doing brainstorming of potential topics.

[Congresswoman AOC]

Okay.

[Senator Whitehouse]

Wow.

[Narrator/Host]

Powerful indeed. Next, I want to share with you Democratic Congress member Menendez Cross examining Zeldin here and saying, you know, Donald Trump asked the oil and gas industry for a billion dollars in exchange for rollbacks from the epa. So you're just delivering on that. You're just doing the fav to the big gas and oil companies. Right?

Play this clip.

[Congressman Menendez]

Because you've said other crazy stuff. You've said other stuff, crazy stuff today. Okay. That the rebuilding administration. I mean, are you going to do anything at some point? I mean, how many instances you ask

[Lee Zeldin]

a question, give me an opportunity to

[Congressman Menendez]

answer because I moved on. And you've done this numerous times. So listen, I just want to ask you a question. You've said that the Biden administration, with the ira, had more funds than the EPA knew how to spend. And there was waste, fraud and abuse. Right. And this was out to people that were in the Biden orbit. You had said that earlier. Yet I'm curious if you have any issue with the fact that during the 2024 campaign, the President asked the oil and gas industry for $1 billion in exchange for supporting these rollbacks that the EPA is administering now? Is that at all an issue for you that the president said to the oil and gas industry, give me a billion dollars, I will do your work? Is that not the work that the EPA is doing today?

[Lee Zeldin]

Are you actually asking questions?

[Congressman Menendez]

I'm asking a question. Are you going to give an answer?

[Lee Zeldin]

I'm going to start an answer. And then you're going to cut me

[Congressman Menendez]

off if that's gonna be the case. And have another thing for you. What do you think about the $220 million ad campaign that Secretary Noem had with the DHS that went directly. That went directly to Trump. I'm talking. That went to Trump operative. Did you speak out against that as a member of the administration?

[Lee Zeldin]

He was giving former Obama and Biden officials about the conflicts of interest during the Biden EPA that you don't want to up.

[Congressman Menendez]

All right, what about in the Trump administration? If you want. If you want to talk about the Biden administration, talk about the Trump administration. You're a part of the administration and you don'. That Secretary no was wrong. Say that Secretary no was wrong. You're not going to.

[Lee Zeldin]

You don't want to work with the agency Mr. Zeldin.

[Congressmember Harder]

Thank you.

[Lee Zeldin]

Mr. Zeldin is here to talk about

[Congressmember Harder]

the EPA, not other matters at the

[Congresswoman AOC]

same time,

[Lee Zeldin]

If it's related to the epa. And you certainly can ask.

[Congressmember Harder]

But, but

[Lee Zeldin]

he also has a right to answer the question.

[Congressmember Harder]

So let's try to be a little

[Lee Zeldin]

more civil on all parts. Gentlemen.

[Narrator/Host]

Next you had Congress member Landsman cross examining Lee Zeldin.

Let's play this clip.

[Congressmember Landsman]

EPA budget just in, sort of pulling back a little bit over the course of the last 14 months. There's you all pushed for a massive spending bill, $4.5 trillion. Most of it went to tax cuts that overwhelmingly favored the super wealthy. You added trillions of dollars to the debt, cut healthcare by nearly a trillion dollars and now you are going to cut the EPA by 50%. You remember Congress. Would you have supported all of this

[Lee Zeldin]

as a member of Congress, the working families tax cut? I absolutely would have voted yes. And as I'm hearing from Americans across the country, they're really happy to get a lot more back in their tax return. And I would say that on behalf of all those Americans who have shared that while I can share that feedback with President Trump, I'd also say to the Republicans on this committee who voted for it, thank you for doing your part understanding the economic concerns of Americans across this country.

[Congressmember Landsman]

And you don't spend a lot of time Mr. Zone, you don't spend a lot of time with people right there. That really isn't true. No one's really saying thank you for cutting their health care, for adding trillions.

[Lee Zeldin]

That shows how out of touch you are that you believe that Americans are not happy to get more back in their tax return.

[Congressmember Landsman]

No, you don't talk to folks. There's no like I visited all 50

[Lee Zeldin]

states in my first and people come

[Congressmember Landsman]

up to you and they say one, they, they thank you so much for spending trillions of dollars on the super wealthy and cutting our health care. That's what they tell you. No, they don't repeat your sound asking you to shift.

[Lee Zeldin]

We appreciate having more money in our wall.

[Congressmember Landsman]

All this money back to afford to

[Lee Zeldin]

heat our home and fill up our gas tanks, have our groceries. That's what they serve. So that's what they say. They don't repeat.

[Congressmember Landsman]

They don't. They don't say that. They absolutely don't. They're all members of Congress.

[Lee Zeldin]

They're grateful for having more back in their tax return. No, they're position that shows how you're

[Congressmember Landsman]

shifting money to the state. So this is Russ vote right. He's the head of ombuds. He sets the policy for all of you. He came to you and said, I got to cut your budget by 50%. The EPA, it's there to protect the environment and Americans. And you just say, okay, is that how it works? Because this is Russ Vogt, who was the architect, one of the key architects of Project 2025, which was we're going to decimate the federal government, shift the cost burden back to states, and we'll free up all this money for tax cuts for the super wealthy. And you were like, okay, that's fine.

[Lee Zeldin]

No, that is not what happened.

[Congressmember Landsman]

So Russ Boat doesn't make this call.

[Lee Zeldin]

The budget that I'm here before Congress is a budget that I support, that, that I take responsibility for crafting.

[Congressmember Landsman]

Well, I suspect he is glad to hear.

[Lee Zeldin]

I'm sure he's, I'm sure he's happy with the budget that we, that he crafted. But that's not true.

[Congressmember Landsman]

It is true.

[Lee Zeldin]

Okay, well, you're, you're entitled titled to your own version of.

[Narrator/Host]

And then you have Congressmember Auchincloss from Massachusetts saying, how are we going to get rid of the PFAS in municipal water supplies with 90% fewer dollars? How are you going to get rid of all of these agents in the water, these pollutants in the water, these things that are causing lots of sickness if you've just gutted the entire investment in order to make the supply better?

Here, play this clip.

[Congressmember Auchincloss]

You're proposing to cut again this cycle, 90%. I've now talked to your top staffers. I've talked to the top technologists. The technology isn't there. So how do we get rid of PFAS in municipal water supplies? Do you agree it's a problem? I agree it's a problem. It affects your state. It affects my state with 90% fewer dollars.

[Lee Zeldin]

So it's your position that there's no PFAS destruction technologies that merit any conversation here?

[Congressmember Auchincloss]

There's tons of. What I am saying is at the point of production. Yes. For dredge at landfills. Yes. I'm talking about municipal water supplies to get to 4 to 8 parts per trillion. I mean, it was your staff and the top technologists, they were in my office, they were talking about this. It isn't there. So if you are a town in New York right now, one of the towns that you championed when you were a congressman, for PFAS dollars, what are they going to do with 90% fewer dollars to get rid of PFAS?

[Lee Zeldin]

Well, first off, as I referenced earlier, what we don't do in our proposed budget is factor in how much you are going to want to raid the SRF for earmarks. That's a decision for you to decide to make. Now, I'm not weighing in on the merits and I'm going to opine on what you choose to advocate for your district on. But at the same time, the President's FY27 budget proposal is not going to propose your earmarks for you. We're also not your plan.

[Congressmember Auchincloss]

Set asides your EPA plan for clean water is to hope that members of Congress.

[Lee Zeldin]

I'm not hoping that members of Congress are going to rate it. I know that members of Congress are going to rate it and they've been doing it for a long time. There's a reason why the revolving fund is not revolving is because there are members who take money out of the revolving fund and they give it as earmarks to members of their district. And by the way, there are a lot of fantastic examples of how members, I'm sure of this committee, have secured these earmarks for their district.

[Congressmember Auchincloss]

I've gotten about 40 million back from

[Lee Zeldin]

my revolving fund anymore for clean water issue. If you want it to revolve, you can make sure it's properly funded by getting rid of the congressionally directed spending. If Congress chooses not to administrator, continue to have this problem.

[Congressmember Auchincloss]

You're in charge of the EPA budget. You're not in charge of earmarks. And hope is not a strategy.

[Narrator/Host]

Next, you have Democratic Senator Mark Kelly watch as he just tries to ask a very simple question and Zeldin has no answer at all.

Play this clip.

[Congresswoman AOC]

Here's the thing, though. Your agency created a website specifically to invite companies to fast track waiver requests. And a FOIA request shows that the company spoke with your staff to coordinate this request. This wasn't just like something that the President did. Your EPA may not be granting the exemptions, but you went through great lengths to make sure that that was facilitated. So, I mean, this is a mile away from a school. This thing is spewing out 12 tons of lead every single year. The bag costs $60 million. Mr. Zeldin, can I get a commitment from you to fix this? Can you go to the President and say, hey, we made a mistake? I mean, this, this was not. Companies have responsibilities in these communities. Can I get a commitment from you to work with my office, work with the President to undo this?

[Lee Zeldin]

Just for my own background, because this is the first time we're talking about it. Do you know if anyone from your team is raised this to ours before now or is this the first time that we're engaging on this topic?

[Congresswoman AOC]

Well, it's the first time we are engaged. We are and we've engaged in other

[Lee Zeldin]

topics, plenty of topics.

[Congresswoman AOC]

This is a serious issue for the community in Miami.

[Lee Zeldin]

I, I hope that at this point after all of the many other topics that you've engaged us with that we've been able to very successfully work together on. I'll just, I'll just tell you my role has been on these exemptions to receive and transmit pursuant to the statute. If there's something specific beyond that, it's merits a follow up conversation. But it's not familiar that it wasn't. I'm not aware of you from what

[Congresswoman AOC]

we know wasn't just receive. The website was set up, there was coordination with your staff. You provide no recommendation to the White House on this at all.

[Lee Zeldin]

I transmit and submit, I receive and transmit.

[Congresswoman AOC]

But your job is to look out for the health of the American people following the statute. But how about the kids that go to that school and people that go to that church? I mean I would love to have an opportunity to try to solve this problem. It's $60 million to a company that made 2.7 billion. This administrator, and I'm not saying you specifically, I'm saying this administration, the White House put the profits of that company over the health of those children.

[Lee Zeldin]

The only issue is as I sit here, I don't have the. I would like to have the information about the company and the technology and

[Congresswoman AOC]

we will get it to you because

[Lee Zeldin]

as I sit here, it's the first time that anyone has raised it.

[Congresswoman AOC]

We will get you all the information. Thank you.

[Narrator/Host]

And next you have Democratic Senator Whitehouse who just absolutely fillets Lee Zeldin, Donald Trump's EPA administrator.

Let's play it.

[Senator Whitehouse]

But the big winners getting to pollute for free are your fossil fuel polluters, Trump's big donors. Is EPA looking at all at Florida's climate climate driven insurance crisis?

[Lee Zeldin]

So to be clear the everything about the nine cents, all you want to ask me is I have a 9 question less than 18 cents? No, I just that I'm understanding you

[Senator Whitehouse]

don't want to ask my question. I'll move on to the next one.

[Lee Zeldin]

If I'm fuel efficient, all you want to know that 9 cents is less than 18 cents. You don't actually talk about the issue.

[Senator Whitehouse]

You already answered that. Now you're just wasting my time.

[Lee Zeldin]

Now everything other than fuel efficiency 9 is less than 18 is wasting up

[Senator Whitehouse]

the cost of Americans gasoline budgets. Your own regulatory impact analysis put the net loss to consumers at $180 billion, but with a minimum, minimum 580 billion bonus for big oil at the pump. All those billions go to your fossil fuel polluters, Trump's big donors. Those are your numbers, Mr. Zeldin. You also made it easier to pollute with soot soot, which will cost Americans tens of billions in added health care costs, all to save about $600 million in compliance costs for your fossil fuel polluters, Trump's big donors. You stopped EPA even counting health harms in your cost benefit analysis, didn't you?

[Lee Zeldin]

I'm still stuck on the fact that all you're asking me is less than 18.

[Senator Whitehouse]

You attacked the.

[Lee Zeldin]

You want to talk about what an LCOE is?

[Senator Whitehouse]

I get time here. I get to ask the questions. You attacked the greenhouse gas reduction fund potentially costing consumers $52 billion in lost energy savings, let alone the health benefits of cleaner air. But that 52 billion consumers lose will flow Where? To your fossil fuel polluters, Trump's big donors. Ditto the solar for all funding that you attack. Trying to strip Americans of $350 million per year and expected energy savings billions over time. Those lost savings go where? To your fossil fuel polluters, Trump's big donors. You even set up a special polluter email address that gave polluters a drive up window for exemptions from the Clean Air act, helping them keep 70 polluting coal plants online. One estimate is that just six of those plants have already cost ratepayers an extra $230 million in costs in less than one year. And indeed one plant in Michigan has already cost Michiganders $600 million in excess health costs. That is money out of consumers pockets and into the pockets of your fossil fuel polluters, Trump's big donors.

[Lee Zeldin]

Can we talk about your math tracking

[Senator Whitehouse]

the consumer cost of those coal plants?

[Lee Zeldin]

We're going to get to talk about math.

[Senator Whitehouse]

Are you even tracking the consumer costs of those coal plants?

[Lee Zeldin]

Oh this is great. So I don't even know where to start with all the mess question.

[Senator Whitehouse]

Are you even tracking of the consumer

[Lee Zeldin]

costs of those and costs are going down across the country.

[Senator Whitehouse]

When you look at EPA's.

Where? Where are you tracking the consumer costs of those coal plants?

[Lee Zeldin]

When you look at epa, are you kidding me? Coal plants even staying open, you think that the math is it's better for West Virginia if you coal. If you close down their coal plants and put these people out of Work and tell them to learn to code. According to you, in your mind, that's saving West Virginia.

[Senator Whitehouse]

Is raising.

[Lee Zeldin]

Saving them on energy? I know it's raising. Is it saving them on jobs?

[Senator Whitehouse]

And talk across me all you like. You are raising costs.

[Congressmember Auchincloss]

Raising.

[Senator Whitehouse]

You're raising costs on purpose if because the money that you get when you raise costs from consumers goes to Trump's big fossil.

[Lee Zeldin]

We don't close down. My time is up.

[Narrator/Host]

How about Congressmember harder? I thought his cross examination was pretty good as well.

Let's play this clip.

[Congressmember Harder]

Decisions that the EPA made under your leadership was to repeal higher mercury and air toxic standards. Tell me a little bit about why you did that and specifically why you left out the health impacts in that analysis.

[Lee Zeldin]

So you're referring to the 2024 Mercury nanotoxic standards we kept in place. The strict 2012 Mercury narotoxic standards that were working there was a targeted effort towards the end of the Biden administration through a number of rules to try to tell coal miners that they should learn to code and to try to make coal plants across this country shut down. Steam electric ELG, coal combustion, residual clean power plan 2.0, the 2024 Mercury Nair toxic standards. Collectively, there were coal plants all across the entire country that were targeted for extinction because of it. And now they're able to stay open. Coal and natural gas, they provide these

[Congressmember Harder]

power plants to refocus. Specifically, why did your analysis of the impacts of this repeal not include the health impacts to the populations that are going to bear this increased mercury pollution?

[Lee Zeldin]

Oh, we absolutely consider the health impacts of mercury.

[Congressmember Harder]

There was no quantified health impact in that analysis. Am I mistaken?

[Lee Zeldin]

We absolutely value the impact. The whole reason why we have mercury and air toxic standards in the first place is because of the health impacts of mercury and toxic standard.

[Congressmember Harder]

So in the repeal, how much do you think it's actually going to. What are the health harms of this repeal?

[Lee Zeldin]

Could be zero.

[Congressmember Harder]

You think doubling the amount of mercury pollution in the air is going to lead to zero health harms?

[Lee Zeldin]

Where did you get doubling from?

[Congressmember Harder]

That's the impact of the 20.

[Lee Zeldin]

Where did you get it from the

[Congressmember Harder]

2024 to the 202012 standards. You mentioned that you're going back to the 2020.

[Lee Zeldin]

Where's your math from? Here we go. I'm not Secretary Kennedy. I watched your hearing with him last week.

[Congressmember Harder]

It is 71% higher. The standards from 2024 are 70% higher than the standards from 2012.

[Lee Zeldin]

So it is your position as I sit here Today we're about to do this because you're going to regret it. We're about to do this where your position is that we are doubling the

[Senator Whitehouse]

amount of mercury that you are allowing

[Congressmember Harder]

70% higher mercury standards.

[Lee Zeldin]

Yeah, no, so I'm allowing 70%. Now I'm saying.

[Congressmember Harder]

Now you're saying standard that had 70% stricter standards, the 2024 standard than the 202012 standard.

[Lee Zeldin]

So the nationwide tons.

[Congressmember Harder]

Understand the math behind this.

[Congresswoman AOC]

Here we go.

[Lee Zeldin]

The nationwide tons of mercury emissions from coal plants if the mats 2024 was still in place from 2028 to 2037 was 33.2. The nationwide tons of mercury emissions from coal plants and mercury narrow toxic standards was repealed from 2028 to 2037 is 39.3 at most. That's assuming that no coal plant at all will voluntarily take any action whatsoever to install any control devices. So at most the math ends up being 15.5 to 18.3% which is significantly

[Congressmember Harder]

less than double the estimates that I've seen are as much as 1500 additional pounds of mercury in the air.

[Lee Zeldin]

Rip it up, have your dog pee on it. It's just not accurate.

[Narrator/Host]

And you saw this exchange between Democratic Senator Padilla and EPA Secretary Zeldin.

Let's play this clip.

[Senator Whitehouse]

When you came in you promised the

[Lee Zeldin]

cleanest air in history.

[Senator Whitehouse]

Do you believe the air Los Angeles

[Lee Zeldin]

to air across the country is cleaner

[Senator Whitehouse]

than when this administration started?

[Lee Zeldin]

Yes, I've seen over the course with.

[Narrator/Host]

Now just to remind you Lee Zeldin who's the head of the epa, he says that climate change is a hoax and doesn't exist.

Here play this clip.

[Lee Zeldin]

Lee.

[Congressman Menendez]

I can't believe just years when everybody

[Lee Zeldin]

was said climate change was a third rail. Don't bring it up.

[Congressman Menendez]

The President says it is a hoax, it is a con job. Where do you fall on this?

[Senator Whitehouse]

The President is absolutely right and we've seen in the name of climate change these left wing policies willing to cause extreme economic pain for people who can least afford it. We've seen in the name of climate justice grants to $50 million to climate justice Alliance. They say climate justice runs through a free Palestine. In the name of environmental justice they will have tens of billions of dollars go to their well connected left wing former Obama and Biden officials and Democratic donors rather than directly towards environmental remediation. And they're willing to suffocate out entire sectors of our energy economy and that that caused the loss of jobs, higher energy costs. So President Trump is absolutely right. It's something that with eyes wide open. The Trump mandate is being implemented all year long at the Trump EPA and across the Trump administration and the rest of the world is taking notice cuz they're having some of the same problems in their own country.

[Narrator/Host]

And in order to really get that job, he had to be this Trump MAGA sycophant. Here he was with Don Jr. In 2024 in order to try to prove his loyalty to Donald Trump.

Let's play this clip just so we're

[Republican Senator]

clear, because they're going to start this one. It's like, you know, they'll use, you know, the fact that there's basically no majority in the House. There's nothing, you know, they're going to use that and they're going to try to flip it. Like, I don't know, we could have given you something if you rolled over and everything. This, this bill that I'm reading about now, this Lankford bill, and this is a Republican senator agreeing with Chuck. 5,000 illegal immigrants a day, every day, forever.

[Narrator/Host]

And I'll remind you of this, I thought great moment earlier this week where King Charles was calling out the importance of respecting our climate, our shared climate in the world. And then the C Span camera goes right to Lee Zeldin, who doesn't believe in climate change at all, who's the head of the EPA here.

Play this clip.

[King Charles]

As we celebrate the beauty that surrounds us, our generation must decide how to address the collapse of, of critical natural systems which threatens far more than the harmony and essential diversity of nature. We ignore at our peril the fact that these natural systems, in other words, nature's own economy, provide the foundation for our prosperity and our national security.

[Narrator/Host]

There you have it, folks. Let me know what you think. Hit. Subscribe. Let's get to 7 million subscribers. Powerful Cross exams. Want to stay plugged in? Become a subscriber to our [e-mail] you'll get daily recaps from Ron Filipowski ad free episodes of our podcast and more exclusive content Only [e-mail].

[Lee Zeldin]

The R B Tour starring Usher Raymond and Chris Brown. Uniting two of R B's defining hitmakers

[Senator Whitehouse]

Chris Brown and Usher Raymond. Get Tickets [e-mail]

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for

[Shopify Advertiser]

three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] tired of your car

[Jerry Insurance Advertiser]

insurance rate going up? Even with a clean driving record, you're not alone. That's why there's Jerry, your proactive insurance assistant. Jerry compares rates side by side from over 50 top insurers and helps you switch with ease. Jerry even tracks market rates and alerts you when it's best to shop. No spam calls, no hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Switch with confidence Download the Jerry app or visit Jerry AI Libson today. That's J E R R Y AI Libsyn.