What Makes a Good Life? This Study on 26,000 Regrets Will Guide You for the Rest of Your Life

Summary

The Mel Robbins Podcast
Episode: "What Makes a Good Life? This Study on 26,000 Regrets Will Guide You for the Rest of Your Life"
Air Date: May 25, 2026
Guest: Daniel Pink (bestselling author, director of the Global Regret Survey)

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and deeply relatable conversation, Mel Robbins welcomes Daniel Pink, renowned author and director of the largest-ever global study on regret, to unpack how regrets can be harnessed for growth and fulfillment. The episode centers on insights from the Global Regret Survey—26,000 regrets collected in 134 countries—and explores four universal types of regret, their lessons, and practical, research-backed strategies to process regrets and move forward. Rather than dwell on past mistakes, Mel and Dan show how regret can be a liberating tool for building a happier, more purposeful life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Universality of Regret

• We all have regrets: Pink emphasizes that regret is a fundamental human emotion, not a sign of weakness. The only people who don’t experience regret are "little kids, people with certain neurodegenerative conditions, and sociopaths." (07:38)
• Regret’s purpose: Rather than being a negative, regret is an adaptive tool that helps clarify what we value and provides information for living better in the future. (07:25)

"Regret clarifies what we value and points us how to do better in the future. This emotion...is one of the most common emotions that human beings have."
— Daniel Pink (07:25)

2. Understanding Regret: Emotion vs. Disappointment

• Definition: Regret involves agency—wishing you had acted or chosen differently. Disappointment can occur when events are out of your control. (13:27)
• Regret is “data”: Negative feelings signal areas for self-improvement if approached constructively.

"Regret is a terrible feeling. It’s a feeling...when we look backward and wish we had done something differently...but that bad feeling is a signal. It’s data. It’s information."
— Daniel Pink (13:27)

3. The Global Regret Survey & Major Findings

• Commonality across cultures: Regrets from Milwaukee, Copenhagen, or Taipei sound remarkably similar; the human experience of regret transcends geography and demographics. (15:36)
• People yearn to unburden themselves: A surprisingly high number of survey participants volunteered to discuss their regrets further, revealing a shared desire for connection and meaning. (17:07)

4. Why We Drag Regrets: Shame and Isolation

• Many listeners and survey participants feel uniquely “bad” about their regrets, but research shows these are nearly universal experiences.
• The episode normalizes regret and encourages self-compassion: "Treat yourself with kindness rather than contempt. Treat yourself the way you would treat a friend." (23:03)

5. The Four Universal Categories of Regret (26:00)

Daniel Pink’s study identifies four key regret categories, each pointing to what makes a good life:

a. Foundation Regrets: "If only I’d done the work"

• Regrets about failing to plan, save, or care for health, e.g. not saving money, neglecting health habits.
• Small poor choices made repeatedly accumulate and undermine stability. (39:00)
• Lesson: Stability and security are crucial for a good life.

b. Boldness Regrets: "If only I’d taken the chance"

• Regrets about not acting or speaking up—romantic opportunities, career risks, travel, voicing truth.
• Overwhelmingly, people regret missed opportunities more than attempts that fail.
• "When people don't take the shot, they regret it overwhelmingly." (42:59)
• Lesson: Take more risks aligned with your desires; inaction lingers longer than action.

c. Moral Regrets: "If only I’d done the right thing"

• Regrets when people violate their own values or integrity—cheating, dishonesty, betrayal (58:01).
• A minority but deeply felt, revealing most people’s desire to be good.
• Lesson: The desire to be ethical and kind is a universal human value.

d. Connection Regrets: "If only I’d reached out"

• Regrets over lost relationships, drifting from loved ones, or not expressing love or forgiveness.
• Most common in survey responses.
• Lesson: Nurturing and repairing relationships brings enduring fulfillment.

6. Why Do We Avoid Acting to Remedy Regret?

• Awkwardness as a “paper tiger”: People overestimate the awkwardness and underestimate the positive reception of reconnecting or apologizing. (35:10)
• Spotlight effect: We fear judgment, but most people are too focused on themselves to dwell on others’ mistakes.

"Awkwardness is the most papery of paper tigers...you go right through it."
— Daniel Pink (35:10)

7. Practical Framework: Turning Regret into Growth (60:28)

The “Inward, Outward, Forward” Process:

• Inward: Shift your self-talk from self-criticism to self-compassion.
  • Treat yourself as you would a friend. Recognize that regret is universal and is only a scene, not the whole movie, of your life.
• Outward: Unburden yourself by expressing the regret.
  • Write about it for 15 minutes a day for three days (University of Texas research), or talk it out. This makes the regret concrete and less menacing. (61:50)
• Forward: Identify the lesson and the action.
  • Use third-person self-talk—"What should Mel do?"—to gain clarity and draw a lesson for the future. (63:55)

"Treat yourself with kindness rather than contempt. Recognize regrets are part of the human experience...it's a moment in your life, not the full measure."
— Daniel Pink (60:28)

8. Advice for Specific Scenarios

• Connection regrets: The remedy is simple: "When in doubt, reach out." (30:20)
• Saying “I love you” or expressing feelings: Don’t wait; awkwardness will pass, regret rarely does. (37:49)
• If the person is gone or forgiveness is impossible: Talk about your regret and teach others from your experience. (59:56)
• If you lack agency (e.g., abuse): Can’t regret not leaving when leaving wasn’t possible. Be gentle with your past self. (51:55)
• Stuck on a big decision: Visualize advice from your future self, 10 years ahead (57:11).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You can treat regret as a teacher, not a tormentor.” — Mel Robbins (throughout)
• “Regret clarifies what we value and points us how to do better in the future.” — Daniel Pink (07:25)
• “Treat yourself with kindness rather than contempt. The way we talk to ourselves...is lacerating and mean-spirited. Don’t do that.” — Daniel Pink (23:03)
• “When in doubt, reach out.” — Daniel Pink (30:20)
• “Awkwardness is the most papery of paper tigers.” — Daniel Pink (35:10)
• “Regret makes us human, and regret makes us better.” — Daniel Pink (71:34)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00 – Mel introduces Daniel Pink and the motivating power of regret
• 05:56 – Daniel on what regret can teach us and why it is transformative
• 13:27 – Distinguishing regret from disappointment: the role of agency
• 15:36 – Surprises from the Global Regret Survey; similarity of regrets worldwide
• 22:33 – Advice for those feeling uniquely burdened by regret
• 26:00 – The Four Types of Regret explained
• 29:15 – Mel’s personal story of reconnecting with an old friend
• 35:10 – "Awkwardness is a paper tiger": overcoming barriers to reconnecting
• 39:00 – Foundation regrets and the importance of little decisions
• 42:59 – Boldness regrets: regrets of not taking a chance
• 57:13 – Future self framework for big decisions
• 60:28 – The three-stage process: inward, outward, forward
• 66:04 – How to apply the lesson from regret to current and future behavior
• 69:58 – How to help a loved one who is struggling with regret
• 71:34 – Daniel Pink’s single most important takeaway

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Takeaway Message

Regret is not a flaw, but a feature of being human. Confronting (not avoiding or wallowing in) regret with self-compassion, honesty, and action allows us to distill wisdom, strengthen connections, act more boldly, form solid foundations, and reaffirm our core values. In the words of Daniel Pink:

"Regret makes us human, and regret makes us better." (71:34)

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Action Steps from the Episode

1. Embrace regret as information: Stop hiding from regrets; recognize their universality.
2. Classify your regret: Identify whether it’s a foundation, boldness, moral, or connection regret.
3. Apply the inward-outward-forward framework:
   • Inward: Self-compassionate self talk
   • Outward: Share or write about the regret
   • Forward: Identify the lesson and next action
4. When you think of someone, reach out: Don’t let fear, awkwardness, or hesitation stand in the way.
5. **Treat your regret as a signal, not a sentence—to guide your actions toward a better life.

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For further insights and tools from Mel Robbins and Daniel Pink, share this episode and revisit these frameworks whenever a regret surfaces. The research-backed strategies discussed are your path to a lighter, more purposeful, regret-free future.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's your friend Mel. And welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Today, you and I are talking about a global study that completely changed the way I think about my entire life. This study is called the Global Regret Survey, and it analyzed more than 26,000 regrets from people in 134 countries. Now, when I read this research, it stopped me in my tracks. You know what it made me realize? I need to call my dad. I need to take my health more seriously. I need to stop beating myself up over the stupid things that I did in my 20s, my 30s, my 40s, and just move on. I was so moved by what I learned that I invited the director of that study, Daniel Pink, to be here in Boston for a life changing conversation about regret. Daniel Pink is gonna teach you that after analyzing regrets from all over the world, there are four types of regrets. And based on what kind of regret you are dealing with, there's very specific strategies that you can use based on the research to process the regret, to learn from it, and more importantly, move forward. Second, we're gonna talk about three steps based on research that you and your loved ones need that are proven to help you break free of that heavy judgment, that weight that you feel when you regret something. This isn't going to be depressing, it's going to be liberating because Dan Pink and I are going to go toe to toe and teach you how to use this groundbreaking research so you can free yourself of the weight of regret and turn toward your future and create a better life. Did you know that you can buy your car completely online on autotrader? Really? Just go to autotrader.com and get picky. Search through dealer listings for the make, model, color, all the features that matter. Then all you need to do is drop in your info and you'll only see cars that fit your budget. Really? Once you find the one, do the whole deal online and either pick the car up at the dealership or have it delivered right to your driveway. AutoTrader. Buy your car online. Really? With the US bank smartly Visa Signature card, you can earn an unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. No quarterly activations, no categories to Track, just unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. When you're booking your summer trip, do not miss this opportunity to get a bunch of cash back because you know you need it for your vacation. Visit usbank.com smartlycard to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is U.S. bank National association pursuant to a license from Visa USA Inc. Some restrictions may apply. Hey, it's your friend Mel. And welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so excited that you're here. I never thought I'd say I was excited to have a conversation about regret, but I am. You know, it's an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And I also wanna take a moment in case you're a new listener. I just wanna take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family. You have picked a winner. I cann to meet and learn from today's extraordinary guest, Daniel Pink, who is here to share all kinds of mind blowing insights from the global regret survey, which is the largest study ever done on regrets. Daniel Pink is one of the most influential thinkers of our time. He's a multiple New York Times bestselling author. His TED talk has been viewed more than 12 million times. Dan Pink has spent decades translating behavioral science into tools that work in real life. But today, you and I are diving into what is his most powerful and personal work yet. Daniel Pink led one of the largest studies ever conducted on the topic of regret. He and his team collected more than 26,000 regrets from people in 134 countries, creating one of the most comprehensive emotional databases ever assembled. And what he discovered is extraordinary. What Daniel will teach you today about regrets is going to help you move on from the past and live a better life. Please help me welcome the brilliant Daniel Pink to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

[B]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. It's great to be with you.

[A]

It's so great to see you. So I have here in my hand a huge stack of regrets.

[B]

That is a huge stack.

[A]

What? We polled our global audience. Yeah, I wanna read some of these to you. Okay, Here we go. I'm just turning to a page, not talking to my father before he passed. We weren't on speaking terms for over two years. Quitting my career due to burnout instead of asking my family for help.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, not being more patient with my kids when they were younger. Why was I always rushing? Not standing up for myself or listening to myself. Allowing others to influence my choices. Not prioritizing my children, Choosing a relationship over my kids. Not believing in myself when I was younger. Not going to medical school. I regret not realizing my worth and allowing disrespect because of it. Wishing I did better in high school. Dating the wrong men. I always sort of knew it. I didn't have therapy sooner. The career I loved, I wanted to pursue, I didn't. It just goes on and on and on and Where I want to start is if I take everything to heart that you are about to share with us, that you have researched regarding regret, what it can teach us, how might my life change?

[B]

Well, first of all, you're going to know what to do with that kind of emotion. You're going to take that emotion, which feels bad. You're going to be able to take that negative sentiment and turn it into something positive. And when you do that, you do some other things. You actually understand what you value in life. You actually find more meaning in life. But wait, there's more for some of those. There's actually some evidence out there in the research that says that you can become better at your job, you can become a better negotiator, you can become a better problem solver, you can become a better thinker. So the key here is to look those regrets in the eye. Not to flinch from them, not to ignore them, not to wallow in them, but to look them in the eye. And those that pile there, Mel.

[A]

Yes, it is heavy, Daniel.

[B]

But you know what? It's heavy, but it's also positive. Let me tell you why. Because what we think is, we think that. And this is how I got into this topic, we think that nobody wants to talk about regrets. Yep, that's proof that that's wrong. People do want to talk about regrets.

[A]

Everybody, I think, wants to talk about regrets. We quietly carry them with us. And I just want to hover on something that you just said, that we can't avoid it, we can't run from it, we need to face it. And that there is something that regret is trying to teach us about how we should be living our life. And I love that. But when I read something like marrying my first husband after he cheated on me, I really regret that. Not talking to my mother. And then she died. You know, just all this wishing I should have. Can you really flip this weight and turn it into something that makes your life better?

[B]

Yes, you can. Regret clarifies what we value and points us how to do better in the future. This emotion that these people are expressing here is one of the most common emotions that human beings have.

[A]

Regret.

[B]

Yes. It is ubiquitous in the human experience. Right? People talk about saying, oh, I don't have any regrets. Everything happens for reasons. That's utter bs. The only people who don't have regrets are little kids because their brains haven't developed the cognitive capacity to do it. People with certain kinds of neurodegenerative disorders and sociopaths. Otherwise, everybody has regrets. Okay? So the Question is why? Why would something that makes us feel so bad be so widespread? And the answer is because it's useful if we treat it right. And here's the problem, here's the heart of it. No one ever told us how to do that. So what happens is, is that we basically plug our ears and say, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No regrets. Or we get buried by it. What we want to do is just chill out, look at it, think about it, stare it in the eye. And when we do that, it's transformative.

[A]

I believe you. And when you read these, you feel the weight. Letting my best friend and I drift apart. Not taking chances, playing secure, not staying longer and holding my dying grandma's hand. Securing financial freedom for my future, wishing I got a lump in my breasts, checked out sooner instead of feeling like I was just overthinking it, staying in a relationship longer than I wanted, not having more kids, and my husband rubs my face in it. And I want you, as you're listening to Dan, or you're watching right now, to think about some regret that you have. And we're gonna get into these frameworks and this research, and I want you to be selfish right now. I want you to really hold on to that regret that you've not wanted to talk about. You try to push off in the past. And I want you to use this conversation to set yourself free. Dan, what made you wanna lean into and do the biggest research project ever done on regrets?

[B]

Cause I had regrets.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. And I had a moment. I've lived six decades without epiphanies, except for one case, one time where I felt like the universe was opening up to me. And that was a few years ago at my elder daughter's college graduation. So it's a long day, she's graduating from college, and I'm sort of having an out of body experience. I'm watching her in the cap and gown, and I started thinking about my own college experience, which was actually quite positive. But I had some regrets. I wish I were kinder to people big time. I wish I had taken more risks. I actually wish I had worked a little harder. And so it sort of stuck with me. Came back to Washington, where I live, and I knew that nobody wanted to talk about regret. And I was like, very sheepishly said, hi, you know what? I just went to Sofia's graduation and I was thinking about my own college. And, you know, I kind of regret this. I kind of regret that. And I realized that everybody wanted to talk about it. That once I sort of let loose, they let loose. And you ended up having these very rich, generative conversations that people were bottling these things up. And so to make a long story longer, I actually was working on an entirely different book at the time. And so I took this other book, put it aside, spent a month like just doing the basic research on regret. Spent another month writing an entirely new book proposal, which I sent to my very surprised editor who thought I was working on this one book and said, hey, I think I want to write. I think I want to write this book. Now. There's also a personal side of this. Not only was the impulse me, but also there's a stage of life thing going on here. You know, I am 61 years old. I am in the, to use a golf term, the back nine of life. All right? I got more of my life behind me than ahead. So there's more to look back and regret. But also there's a sense of urgency going forward. And so this is not a book I would have written when I was 31, but at this stage in my life, there's something about it that felt kind of inevitable because I'm at the perfect point. Because I got a lot of room to look back, but knock wood, room to look forward and do better.

[A]

I love this. First of all, he's the perfect guy to talk about this. Because even in the example that you just sort of dropped in there about sitting at a graduation and automatically time shrinks.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You start to look at time through a different lens. I'm sure as you were listening, you were thinking back to moments in your past where you wish you wouldn't have wasted time, or you wish you would have been kinder, or you wish. I felt the same thing about college. I drank too much. I didn't like, take advantage of the opportunity. I didn't seek help for the mental health issues. Cause I didn't know what they were. Just the way I treated people on and on and on and on. I also loved, and I wanna make sure you caught it. Whether you're in your 20s or your 60s or 70s or 40s, we are going to benefit from what Dan's talking about, which is there's something funny about what happens when you get older. The aperture of what you're looking ahead at suddenly comes into focus. And all of the crap that you put up with, the things you wasted time on, also come into focus. And you say, well, if I only have 10 years or 20 or heck, even another 50, I want to do it. Differently. And so, if I'm hearing you correctly, the first thing to really embrace is that as much as regret may be crushing you or you're dragging it around like a 20 year old suitcase, that it has something to teach you that can put more life into the years ahead.

[B]

Absolutely. Open the suitcase, because there's a gift inside. You're freaked out by that suitcase, but open it up. It's less menacing than you think. And that's true at any stage of our lives.

[A]

So let's start with what. What the heck is regret? And what's the difference between something you regret versus something that you kind of feel sad about and kind of wish didn't happen? Or are those the same things?

[B]

They're not the same thing. So what regret is the. Regret is a terrible feeling. It's a feeling. This is really important. It's an emotion. It's a feeling we have when we look backward and wish we had done something differently, wish we hadn't done something. Wish we had done something in a different way. All right, so we look backward and we think about a decision or an action, and it makes us feel bad. Right. That's what regret is. Now. It is very different from other kinds of emotions. So you can have an emotion like disappointment if you wish something didn't happen. So I was on a trip last week, and they were on the East Coast. There was a massive snowstorm, and I basically had to leave early. And I can't regret that I didn't make it snow, but I can be disappointed. And so regret has to have agency. It's something that you did. You can't regret something someone else else did. It's. It's all about agency. That's why it feels so bad, because we know deep down it's your fault. It's on you. That's why it feels so bad. And so. But what's that? That bad feeling is a signal. It's data. It's information. It is. It's a knock at the door. Clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk. Okay, so what do we do when there's a knock on the door? You can say, I don't hear anything. All right. What knock? All right. Or you can say, oh, my God, a knock on the door. And you can dive under the couch. Or you can say, huh, I wonder who's there? Clint. Oh, it's a regret. What do you got to tell me? And so that's how we have to start thinking about it. The other thing that comes out in these regrets, though, Mel, which is interesting, is people sort of between the lines. You almost hear them saying or feeling that there's something wrong with them because they have, that is regret. And that's, that's, that is, that's a huge mistake because everybody has regrets. Everybody has regrets. It doesn't make you bad, it doesn't make you weak, it doesn't make you broken. It makes you human.

[A]

I want to just talk first about this research that you did because you've done the biggest research study on regrets. 26,000 regrets, 134 countries. What shocked you the most when you dug into the research?

[B]

Yeah, we started something called the World Regret Survey, where we invited people around the world to submit their big regret. We, as you say, we have a very, very large database of regret. And I think the most surprising thing about it is how much they sound exactly like the regrets that you got and exactly like the regrets that other people got. If I were to say to you, Mel, one of these regrets is from Milwaukee, another one is from Copenhagen, and this one is from Taipei, which is. Which you wouldn't know if I say, I had a chance to take a really challenging, demanding job, but I didn't believe in myself and I regret not taking the shot. And I say to you, is this person a man or a woman? You don't know? And so it's the universality of it that surprised me the most.

[A]

And what were some other things that popped up to you other than the fact that we all live with and feel burdened by regret and none of us have been taught how to flip regret as a very universal experience, being human, into something that can change our lives for the better.

[B]

I'll give you one small example of this, which is that similar to your pile right there, as I mentioned, I wanted to give people anonymity because I felt like they were going to be more forthright about it all. But I also said if you're interested in doing a follow up interview, leave your email address. I figured maybe get maybe 5% of people. We had nearly a third of people leave their email address and say, yeah, it's like not only do I want to tell you as a complete stranger, my big regret, but here is my email address so you can talk to me some more about it.

[A]

Why did that surprise you so much?

[B]

There is this kind of yearning to unburden yourself, to make sense of it, to talk about it, to, you know, to. I like your metaphor. To open up that suitcase and actually see what's in it. And when people do open that up, the act of opening it makes it less menacing.

[A]

You know, given that you are the director of the world's largest study and database on regret. Is regret for teaching what is it for exactly?

[B]

It is for understanding what we care about and telling us how to do better in the future. You know, this is not only research that I've done. Social psychologists and neuroscientists and other cognitive scientists have been studying regret for 60 years. And they found, again, regret is one of the most ubiquitous emotions that human beings have. But we also have data showing that when you actually systematically interrogate your regrets, think about your regrets, try to learn from your regrets, it makes you better at stuff. I mean, at the very least, we have all kinds of evidence from negotiation. You go into a negotiation session, right? People come out, the researchers say, tell me what you regret doing or not doing in that negotiation. So they invite the bad emotion. Then they go to a next negotiation. They do better. And so this is actually. Regret is actually a tool. And it goes back to the idea that negative emotions have a purpose. They're there for a reason. And if we try to extinguish them, forget about them, we're making a colossal mistake. And I don't think we would do it with other negative emotions.

[A]

I don't like feeling sad. I don't like feeling frustrated or pissed off or disappointed. I definitely do not like feeling regret at all.

[B]

Nobody does.

[A]

I don't like sadness.

[B]

You're not supposed to like it. You're supposed to learn from it.

[A]

What the hell are. Okay, so what is the point of a negative emotion you don't like?

[B]

Okay, here we go. Here we go. Here's what we're gonna do. We're doing a little experiment here.

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

You don't like. You don't like your negative emotions? Okay.

[A]

No, I don't.

[B]

Okay. You don't like feeling sad?

[A]

No.

[B]

Do you like feeling grief?

[A]

Well, no, but I.

[B]

Okay, talk to me. Do you like.

[A]

Well, I don't like feeling grief, but if I don't feel grief, then I'm not like. Like, that's part of loving somebody. That's gone, I guess.

[B]

Oh, there you go. How about that? All right, so I could say we could bring in, like, you know, some neuroscientist down the road at MIT and say we're going to give you a magic pill and it's going to extinguish your ability to feel grief. Would you want that?

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

I don't think you would.

[A]

I haven't thought about that.

[B]

I don't think you would. I don't think you would. Because grief is that grief feels terrible. Grief is a terrible emotion. Right. It makes you feel bad, but it's there because it reminds us that we love and why we love. Let's take fear, another negative emotion. I don't like being scared. But you know what? I don't want that MIT magic pill, say, oh, take this pill. You'll never feel fear the rest of your life. You know what's going to happen? I'm going to be in a burning building and everyone else is going to get out because I'm not scared. These negative emotions are there for a reason. They're adaptive. They helped us evolve. Now, you don't want a lot of negative emotions.

[A]

No.

[B]

All right. But you want some. You want more. Lots and lots of positive emotions. You want to feel love and awe and excitement and growth, and you want to have a lot of those. And you actually want a decent amount of regret, because regret helps you learn.

[A]

Well, I'll give you one that can prove this. Like, I was ridiculously irresponsible with money. Yeah. You and I went to college when you would check in to registration and there were tables with credit card companies just passing them out, and I just spent money. And then I developed a habit where I just spent money that I didn't have. And I entered my marriage with, like, $20,000 in secret credit car hard debt that I couldn't pay off. And it became this thing that I deeply regret. And when I listen to you now, I'm realizing I hid in shame and embarrassment for probably 20 years through my 20s and 30s and continued to make stupid decisions which ultimately led me to being in a situation where my husband and I were $800,000 in debt in our early 40s with liens on the house. That was so painful that it fundamentally altered the way I approach money because I didn't wanna feel that bad anymore.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

But I dragged it around for probably two to three decades, Dan, before I unpacked that and said, okay, it's gotten painful enough. I can let it get worse before it gets better.

[B]

I mean, we can analogize to going to the doctor. You know, you say, oh, I gotta. I've had a really bad headache for three weeks. Or do you wait till you're two years from now when you're doubled over and can't breathe? No, you address it then. Because that's because, like, a headache, a headache is a Signal, hey, something's off. We have a lot of regrets, you know, in the database that are very much, that are very much like that. And I think that part of it in your case and in the case of these other folks is that when we don't talk about our regrets, when we don't share them, when we don't actively try to make sense of them, we feel like we're the only one. And we're not. That's the thing. Remember, it's universal.

[A]

Can you talk to the person listening who just heard you say, we feel like we're the only one. And they're saying to themselves, but the thing that I did is really bad, Dan. This is. I am a horrible person. What does your data say and what do you want to say to them?

[B]

Okay, so what I want to say to them is practice self compassion. This is, this is actually, there's a powerful strain of research on the need to be compassionate to ourselves. This is not some kind of gooey woo woo kind of thing. Essentially, here's what I would tell you. Treat yourself with kindness rather than contempt. The way we talk to ourselves internally, you idiot. You know, swearing at ourselves internally is lacerating and mean spirited. Don't do that. There's no evidence.

[A]

Easier said than done.

[B]

What would you say to a friend in that situation and say? Would you say, you freaking idiot, you're a moron, you don't know what you're doing, you're a terrible person. You wouldn't say that. I mean, it's preposterous. You wouldn't say that to a friend. So treat yourself with kindness rather than contempt. Treat yourself the way you would treat a friend. Second thing is, what often happens is that when we make a mistake, when we screw up, when we do something that feels shameful, we think that it constitutes the full measure of our life. And it's not. It's a moment in your life, it's not the full measure of your life. If you think about this timeline, it's like, okay, during this period you messed up, but this rest of the stuff, you're a decent person.

[A]

It's like a scene in the movie.

[B]

Yeah, it's a scene. It's a scene in a decade long movie and it doesn't fully define you

[A]

unless you keep replaying the scene.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Is that the biggest mistake?

[B]

Unless you keep rewinding and watching that scene over and over and over again.

[A]

Well, Dan, I'm just gonna keep on dragging around the suitcase. I cheated, I squandered my finances, I Was a jer. I was unkind. If I had just shown up earlier. I regret not showing up earlier or picking up the phone because then the person died. I've been dragging this. Or I just keep replaying the scene. Is that the biggest mistake that we're making is wallowing in it and replaying it?

[B]

Absolutely. We make two different kinds of mistakes. We ignore it or we wallow in it. And both are really bad. What we should be doing is like, oh, wow, this feels crappy. What is this regret telling me? And if we treat ourselves, you know, the other thing that I would say with a little bit of tough love on this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Is hit me.

[A]

Let's go.

[B]

You gotta like any of these regrets. I mean, I'll be a compassionate person, but you're not that special. I mean, you know, it's like, you tell me about. Give me one of these regrets. It's like, oh, wow. You're the really only person in the world who squandered their money. Oh, wow. You're the only person in the world who cheated on their. It's like, I got. Like, you're not that special. Like, it's part of the human experience. You're a human being, and it's not like you're like, you know, narcissists believe they're singularly excellent, but some of these people are almost reverse narcissists feeling like they're singularly bad. It's like, you're not that special. You're a human being who's living an experience, and at a moment, you have a scene where things went off the rails. All right, that feels terrible. I get it. Treat yourself with kindness rather than contempt. Treat yourself like you would a friend, and recognize it's a moment in your life rather than the full measure of your life. And when we do that, we can begin to make sense of regret, and we can begin to draw lessons from it.

[A]

I love that because it certainly defines how you handled yourself in that moment. But if you really are willing to use the research that you're about to unpack with us, you can allow it to teach you to become who you want to become in the future. I'd love to hear more about this huge research study rather that you did on regret. Dan, what's the most common type of regret that you found when you dug into the research?

[B]

What we discovered is that around the world, people seem to have the same four kinds of regrets.

[A]

So these fall in buckets, right?

[B]

So there are four categories all over the world. Foundation regrets. If only I'd done the work. Boldness, regrets, if only I'd taken the chance. Moral regrets, if only I'd done the right thing. And connection regrets, if only I'd reached out. The most common regret was a regret of connection. All right? And so typically, the story was this. You had a relationship or should have had a relationship that should have been intact. And it comes apart usually in undramatic ways. There's very little. There's, like, less drama than you would think. Hey, I have. Hey. I went to college with my friend Mel, and we were really tight, and then. But I haven't seen her for 10 years. I should really give her a call, see how she's doing. Oh, no, it's gonna be so awkward, and she's not gonna care, so I don't do it. And sometimes it's too late. There's one woman I interviewed who had a friend who was deeply ill, and she hemmed and hawed about reaching out to her because she thought it was gonna be awkward. And when she finally did call, the friend had died. That morning.

[A]

That morning.

[B]

That morning. There are other people who. One woman named Cheryl, who I interviewed had this great friend from college, actually, who she drifted apart from, and she. For 20 years, 25 years, and she didn't call her. She wanted to call her, but she didn't call her.

[A]

And what happened next?

[B]

So I got kind of frustrated with her because it was a classic example of a connection regret. But as I have these interviews, I'm getting to know this person better, and I'm thinking to myself, cheryl, you know what to do here? And so finally, I get an email. Maybe five days later, I sent an email to. Her friend's name was Jen. I sent an email to Jen, and she was so happy to hear from me. And then they ended up having a phone conversation, and then they ended up meeting up. And now I swear I get a photograph every six months of, hey, I just saw Jen. Here's a photo of us together. And so you know that that's. That's what happens. And this woman was, like, living with this regret for 20 years, and all she had to do was reach out, and she. Once she did, things were better.

[A]

So I've got a story like this. So when you and I were in elementary school and high school, we're talking 70s and early religious.

[B]

You got it.

[A]

No social media, no cell phones.

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

I went east for college. I grew up in the Midwest. My best friend Jodi Bricken stayed in the Midwest, and our two paths separated, and I stayed out east, she moved to Chicago. She then moved out west. We spent the next 20 some years not talking. For no reason, right? For no reason. We just had no cell phones. I didn't even think to follow her because once I got social media, we hadn't talked in 10 years. Just because we didn't see each other again. Because I moved far away, she moved far away. And then we ended up bumping into each other one summer in, I think, my mid-40s, and I immediately was flooded with how much I missed her. And we started making these dates, Dan, that whenever we would both travel for work, we would try to line up our calendars, and then we'd stay in a hotel room together, and she'd be at her business conference, I'd be at mine. It's one of the greatest joys of my life. It just took a second, Dan.

[B]

It takes a second to reconnect. And what I have found in interviewing people like this is that the relationship restarts almost instantly.

[A]

Oh, my God. We text every week. I talk to her on the phone. We see each other many times a year. Even though we live nowhere, we live in completely different parts of the country. I'm in Vermont, she's in Arizona. But it has brought so much joy to my life.

[B]

And that's how a lot of these relationships come apart. There's like, you know, it's like we think that relationships come apart because there's some kind of explosion. And in this case, and in many cases, just adrift. That was the case with Cheryl and Jen. That was the case with you and Jodi. It just drifts. And all you have to do, reach out.

[A]

I cannot tell you how much joy it will bring you if there's somebody on your mind that you're thinking about as I tell you the story of Jodi. Call them, text them, send them this episode and say, you just listened to this episode with Mel and Dan and you were the first person that popped into my mind, and I would have. And I just had to reach out to you. I miss you. I just was thinking about you.

[B]

It's a life lesson. When in doubt, reach out.

[A]

When in doubt, reach out. Let's hit the pause button. I want to give our sponsors a chance to share a few words, and I also want to give you a chance to share this with people in your life. I'm sure there is somebody that has popped up into your mind, because I promise you, when you reach out to somebody based on what you're learning, you're going to feel better in your relationship too. And while you do that, don't go anywhere because Daniel Pink is just getting started and as you can tell, he has so much more to teach you and me about this topic. So stay with me. Here's the thing when it comes to investing, who doesn't love having options? Some days you might want a little more control. Hey, it's only human. And other times you may want a teammate in your corner. Well, with Schwab you get all the things all in one place. Like self directed investing when you're thinking, hey, I got this. Or full service wealth management when you're like, you know what, maybe I need some help handling things. You also have investing, trading, college planning and more. Whether you're mapping out long term goals, building a diversified portfolio, or just getting started and learning the ropes, there's support when you need it and independence when you want it. Whatever the approach, Schwab can help you invest your way. Because if you're gonna do this whole money thing, you might as well choose a firm that lets you do it your way, right? Visit schwab.com to learn more. That's s c h w a b dot com you know that moment when you're shopping online and you go to check out and oh my gosh, you have savings in your cart? That win never gets old. That's why Rakuten is such a smart way to shop. Because with Rakuten, you're not just shopping, you're getting rewarded for it. Rakuten is a free way to earn cash back and rewards on nearly everything you buy. Here's how it works. Before you shop, you start on their website or app using their browser extension. Then when you make a purchase, you automatically earn cash back. It's that simple. Rakuten partners with all your favorite brands too, like Kiehl's, neiman Marcus, eBay, wine.com and Macy's. When it's time to redeem your cash back, you can do it by check, PayPal, Bilt points, or in the form of a gift card from one of your favorite stores. Plus, eligible American Express card members can choose to earn membership Rewards points instead of cash back. Terms and conditions apply. Using Rakuten is free and all you need is an email to sign up. Join for [e-mail] that's R A K U T E N or download the Rakuten app to start saving money today. From leaky faucets to faulty ovens, home breakdowns are inevitable and repair bills add up fast. That's why American Home Shield Warranty is a homeowner sanity saver. AHS can repair or may even replace covered parts of home systems and appliances, no matter how old. And as a benefit, with select plans, you can video chat with a repair expert in real time. American Home Shield don't worry. Be warranty. Get 20% off any [e-mail] Mel and see promo details. See ahs.com contracts for coverage details, including service fees, limitations and exclusions. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. Today you and I are here with Daniel Pink. He's a New York Times bestselling author, and he is the author of this global study on regret that fundamentally changed how I think about my life. The past, future, things I've done. I know it's really making you think differently. Here's my next question. Why are we so hesitant? Like, why do we wait so long to reconnect? Dan.

[B]

Okay, because we are. Here we go. I'm gonna just drop another nugget of tough love here because we think we're more special than we really are. Okay? So here's what I mean by that. All right? We think it's going to be awkward, and we think the other side's not going to care. That's the. That's the most important thing. And then. But if we. If you give it the reverse, you would say, suppose that my old friend Mel called me after 15 years. Would you say, that's really weird. I can't believe she did that.

[A]

I was thrilled.

[B]

Exactly. So why wouldn't the other person be thrilled? We think somehow, like, we're entirely different from everybody else. Of course we'd be thrilled if somebody reached out, but no one else would because we're so special. And so. And so there. There is a great degree, particularly on connection, regrets. And this is actually a big lesson for me personally about feelings of awkwardness as a barrier to doing things. Awkwardness is the most papery of paper tigers. Awkwardness. I mean it. I'm. I'm dead here.

[A]

I love the papery of paper tigers.

[B]

Awkward. Well, you. It's a paper tiger. It's not a real tiger. It's a paper tiger, but it's really paper. You go, beep. And you go right through it. It's like those things in, like, those. It's like in those. Those cartoons where somebody comes and sees this giant shadow and the person looks, like, huge, and then you realize there's this little bitty thing right there. Yeah, that's. That's what that is.

[A]

So, so so, so there's awkwardness in thinking about the reconnection and we over.

[B]

What am I, what am I going to say? It's going to. I haven't talked to them. I don't know what they're like. We. We over index on the words we use and don't realize that simply the warmth and the overture was what matters. There's research on this. Vanessa Bonds at Cornell has done a lot of this research on compliments. It's the same thing with compliments. We don't give enough compliments. And the reason we don't give compliments is we say, oh, it's going to be really awkward if I give a compliment because I'm not going to say it right. And the other side's not going to care, when in fact it's not awkward and they do care. So push past that. So awkwardness is not cringe, is not an excuse. Call whatever you want, guys. It is not an excuse. So I think that's the reason why.

[A]

Well, I love this topic. And let me tell you why. As you were just talking and I'm sure as you're listening or watching, you're probably thinking about people that you really miss or you haven't thought of and you just kind of are thinking, well, maybe I should reach out. Like, I have a friend that I regret having a falling out with in college. Right after college, it was due to my mental health issues and I like, lie that I. Or it wasn't a lie, it was gossip that I engaged in. And I really regret it. And it's the awkwardness and the cringe and also this fear of rejection that keeps me from reaching out. And what I'm getting in the middle of this conversation is I need to. Because I know I value connection. I know I value acceptance. I know I value these things. And I too, am guilty. We're talking 30 plus years of missing that connection or at least just not ever checking back in. Can we unpack this regret of not saying I love you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's very striking to me how many people have either never heard one of their parents tell them they love them, or you hear it on the deathbed or you're waiting for somebody to say it to you. Can you talk a little bit about this particular regret? Because I see it a lot. I didn't tell my mom or dad how they felt or my brother or my sister, and then they died.

[B]

The solution is very, very simple. Say it now, period, full stop. That's all that it is. And if it feels A little awkward. Fine. Push past that awkwardness. The feeling of awkwardness you're experiencing now is nothing compared to the feeling of regret you might feel five years from now, ten years from now, and just say it. And the thing is, this is also learned behavior, because once you do it, the next one becomes easier. Once you do that, it becomes easier and easier and easier and easier. Listen, listen, listen. This is not natural. I'm like a straight white man in my early 60s. It's not natural for me to text a buddy of mine and say, hey, I'm thinking of you. All right? That is learned behavior. That is not natural behavior. But you know what? When you do that the second time, it's not as awkward. And there's not been a single time I've done something like that where someone said, ooh, that's weird. Instead, it's the exact opposite. Oh, my God, it's so nice of you. Fantastic. Hey, that was so nice of you to text. Like, what's going on with you?

[A]

I love that. One of the other buckets is foundation regrets.

[B]

What are those your regret about? Debt is a foundation regret, meaning I

[A]

was, like, spending too much. I was very irresponsible with money spent, Money that I didn't have racked up all. That's a foundation regret.

[B]

Yeah. I'll tell you why. Because each individual act of spending was not itself cataclysmic. It's small decisions that you make early in life that accumulate to terrible consequences later on. So I spent too much and saved too little. Now I'm broke. Hugely common regret. I didn't exercise or eat right now. I'm profoundly unhealthy. You smoke one cigarette, it's fine. You do it for 20 years, it's not so fine. And so these are regrets that accumulate and then have terrible consequences. And that's how these things catch up on us. I had a guy who talked about this guy, lovely guy from Tennessee, who had a tough background but did very well in his career, but never saved money because he ate out all the time, and he felt good about taking people out to dinner, picking up the check all the time, and you go out to eat five times a week for 10 years. It's going to add up, man. And so suddenly he's like, oh, my God, I'm 40 years old, I have no savings, and I'm living paycheck to paycheck, even though I have a good job. So it's those kinds of things. So that one time you go out to dinner and treat your friends it's all cool. It's the accumulation of it all that really does it. And again, it erodes the foundation of our lives. And one of the things about regret is that regret is telling us what constitutes a good life. Okay, so these four regrets are telling us what makes a good life. And one of the things that makes a good life, and I think sometimes get short shrift, is that a good life has some stability. A good life has a foundation to it. A good life is not precarious. You know, we can talk about self actualizing and feeling a sense of purpose and meaning and da, da, da, da. But if, like, you can't pay your rent, your life is less good.

[A]

So it sounds like foundational regrets, these things that sneak up on us and then all of a sudden we've fallen off a cliff and our health is terrible. We have no money, we're addicted to alcohol or smoking. We've been a workaholic and never made time for friends. And now I have no idea where all our friends are. That these are kind of like the little daily habits that either lead you to building the foundation of a good life or that have you constantly putting it off for a rainy day.

[B]

You know, in that famous fable, you had the grasshopper who was spending all summer, you know, playing the fiddle and dancing around, or you had the ant who was assiduously gathering food for the dark winter. And here's the thing. It's like, you don't want to live your entire life as an ant. You don't want to always prepare for gloom or doom, but you want to be a little ant, like, because your life is going to be better if you take responsibility, if you build that foundation.

[A]

Let's talk about one of the other categories of regrets, which is boldness.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

Okay, this is a really big category, and it spreads throughout all of our lives. And I think it tells us something really, really important. Boldest regrets are this. You look back on your life and you had two choices. You play it safe. Take the chance. Play it safe, Take the chance. Hey, I can study abroad even though I've never been out of the country, or I can just go and do my thing for another semester. Hey, this person I'm really attracted to, I want to ask him or her out on a date. Or I can just wimp out and not do it. You know what? I'm so deadened by this job. I can either stay in it and continue the deadening, or I can take a risk and start a business. Overwhelmingly, when People don't take the shot. They regret it overwhelmingly. And it doesn't matter. The domain of life. It's like, when we look back on our lives, what really bums us out is not taking the chance, not speaking up for something we care about, not standing up for ourselves, not starting that business. I got hundreds of regrets about dating. It's like, oh, my God, there was this guy or this gal, and I really liked him. And this is 30 years ago, and I really wish I'd asked them out on a date. So regrets of boldness. If only I'd taken the shot.

[A]

I'm so happy that you said it was overwhelmingly focused on things that you didn't do, because I do believe there's kind of two ways to go through life. You either are gonna be saying, boy, I wish I had, or, boy, I'm so glad I did. And as I went through even our own, like, thousands and thousands, I didn't really see a lot of regret. Saying, I really regret quitting that job and starting the business even though it failed. I really regret, you know, like, selling everything and figuring out how to travel full time. I really regret moving. I didn't see really, anybody reporting that boldness when it was a decision aligned with something that they yearned for ended up being a regret.

[B]

Amen on that one, man.

[A]

Can we talk about a common phrase that we saw? And I know it showed up profoundly in this massive research study that you did on regrets, which is, I wish I had done this sooner. So it's almost like this two pronged regret where you regretted something and then you have the double regret of wishing once you caught it, that you caught it sooner. What keeps people in this waiting period? Cause I do feel like there is, at least in the. I wish I'd gotten out of the relationship center. I wish I would have quit in this. I wish I would have gone back to nursing school sooner. I wish I would have that. It's almost an admission to yourself that those years you spent talking yourself out of it, you knew the truth all the time.

[B]

You might have, but sometimes the timing isn't right. I'd give yourself a lot of grace on that.

[A]

How come?

[B]

Because you did something. You took the action. You know you took the action. There's this old Chinese proverb which is, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. Second best time is now. And so that's what. You just have to think about it that way. So if you stop smoking, that's fantastic. Yeah. Maybe you should have stopped five years ago, but you didn't. And so give yourself some grace because you did something really hard that is actually valuable for yourself and your family. I really think you gotta treat yourself with grace and not obsess over doing something sooner. A lot of us are like kind of risk averse. And Daniel Kahneman, the great Nobelist, he has research basically distilling to this. Quitting at the right time always feels like quitting too early. That's just the way that it is.

[A]

I think it's really helpful to hear that when it's time to quit, you're typically not gonna feel ready.

[B]

Exactly. So if it's, oh, this is too early for me to quit, oh, it might be a signal that it's the right time.

[A]

It's almost how we gain surety in the decision is by kind of knowing, okay, it's time, but you build up a little bit more friction and then just say, now it's time.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Here's how I kind of think about it. If I' to extend myself some grace is that when we look back on decisions that we've made and then we regret not making them sooner, we forget that we're looking back from our future self.

[B]

Very good point.

[A]

And we did not have the information that we have as we're looking at the past. Like what I know about myself and what I'm capable of as a 57 year old woman is very different than what I knew about myself and the resources and understanding that I had when I was in my 20s, 30s, 40s. And it's not very fair to hold the 57 year old version of me who by the way, is different because of the things I regret.

[B]

Good point.

[A]

And hold that knowledge over myself 20 years ago.

[B]

Right. And so when we scrutinize our past behavior, we have to think about that person, not this person today, but what did that person know?

[A]

Daniel, these four categories that regrets fall into are so helpful to understand. And it's also helpful to understand that this is universal. We all experience regrets and we can learn from them. It's helping me see that I'm not alone. And it's also giving me this sense that there's something you can do. And I'm sure as you're listening right now, or you're watching, there's something in this conversation that's just making you feel lighter, you're nodding your head, or perhaps you're thinking about people in your life who really need these tools and these frameworks. I want you to take a minute and share this episode with them. Drop it in your family group chat, Send it in an email to a bunch of colleagues. Send it to that friend of yours that's constantly beating herself up because I'm going to tell you something. This research could fundamentally change how they see their entire life. And don't go anywhere because Daniel Pink has specific recommendations for how to turn regret into your biggest teacher when we return. Stay with me. Here's the thing when it comes to investing, who doesn't love having options? Some days you might want a little more control. Hey, it's only human. And other times you may want a teammate in your corner. Well, with Schwab you get all the things all in one place. Like self directed investing when you're thinking, hey, I got this. Or full service wealth management when you're like, you know what, maybe I need some help handling things. You also have investing, trading, college planning and more. Whether you're mapping out long term goals, building a diversified portfolio, or just getting started and learning the ropes, there's support when you need it and independence when you want it. Whatever the approach, Schwab can help you invest your way. Because if you're gonna do this whole money thing, you might as well choose a firm that lets you do it your way, right? Visit schwab.com to learn more. That's s c h w a b dot com you know that moment when you're shopping online and you go to check out and oh my gosh, you have savings in your cart? That win never gets old. That's why Rakuten is such a smart way to shop. Because with Rakuten, you're not just shopping, you're getting rewarded for it. Rakuten is a free way to earn cash back and rewards on nearly everything you buy. Here's how it works. Before you shop, you start on their website or app using their browser extension. Then when you make a purchase, you automatically earn cash back. It's that simple. Rakuten partners with all your favorite brands too, like Kiehl's, neiman Marcus, eBay, wine.com and Macy's. When it's time to redeem your cash back, you can do it by check, PayPal, Bilt points, or in the form of a gift card from one of your favorite stores. Plus, eligible American Express card members can choose to earn membership rewards points instead of cash back. Terms and conditions apply. Using Rakuten is free and all you need is an email to sign up. Join for [e-mail] that's R A K U T E N Or download the Rakuten app to start saving money today. From leaky faucets to faulty ovens, home breakdowns are inevitable and repair bills add up fast. That's why American Home Shield Warranty is a homeowner sanity saver. AHS can repair or may even replace covered parts of home systems and appliances, no matter how old. And as a benefit, with select plans, you can video chat with a repair expert in real time. American Home Shield. Don't worry, be warranty. Get 20% off any [e-mail] Mel and see promo details. See ahs.com contracts for coverage details, including service fees, limitations, and exclusions. Welcome back. It's your friend, Mel. And today you and I are diving into one of the most powerful studies I've ever read. It's all about regret and how you can use regret to be a signal and a teacher that improves your life and who you become in the future. Daniel, here's my next question. One thing that really strikes me is how many people talked about how they stayed in relationships too long or stayed in relationships with somebody that was disrespectful or abusive or treating them poorly. And when you are in a relationship where you're being disrespected or worse, abused.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[A]

You don't feel safe. You don't have the perspective that you will be able to leave it. Which explains why you hedge on the decision to do so at the time. And so I love that piece of this, Dan, to help relieve you of continuing to make yourself wrong for not being ready or able to at the time that you now think you should have been absolutely right because of what you know now.

[B]

Yes. And remember, regret requires agency. And what does that mean? Agency means you have control over what you do.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. I can't regret that it's raining outside. Like, I can be disappointed if I want to go outside. I can't regret that because I don't know, but. But I don't have it. I don't have control over that. But if I go outside in the rain and don't bring my umbrella, I can regret that. And there are people in relationships out there who actually don't have age, agency.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so you can't beat yourself up for not making decisions when you didn't have the agency. It'd be like beating yourself up for renting outside. So you have to scrutinize the person that you were at that time and treat that person, again. Not better than anybody else, but not worse than anybody else. This Is the thing that this is the mistake that we make. We treat ourselves worse than we treat other people and we shouldn't do that.

[A]

Let's talk about the big regret of worrying too much about what other people think.

[B]

Oh, Lord have mercy. We have so many of those.

[A]

Let's talk about that.

[B]

There are a lot of people who have those kinds of regrets. And it is another case where our view of the world is distorted. I actually, when I was younger, actually cared what other people thought in a way that was probably not particularly healthy. And then I actually discovered what people thought about me and it was this. Nobody was thinking about me. They were thinking about themselves. No one was thinking about me. And it's like what's in social psychology is called the spotlight effect. We think that we're constantly in the spotlight. Everybody's watching us and they're not. So go do your thing. Go do your thing. And the other thing. Okay, here we go. I'll give you something else.

[A]

Give it to me.

[B]

I'll see you and raise you. If they do care, there's a two word answer.

[A]

Let them what you can't control. It's been very liberating to create that theory and use it and recognize how much time and energy I've wasted and how much power I gave away to worrying about what other people were thinking and how that held me back from doing things that I wish I had done sooner.

[B]

Absolutely. And it's true for most human beings who walk the planet. That is true of. And if we can get people past that, people are going to act more boldly. They're going to speak up for things that they care about.

[A]

Why do we regret the things we didn't do rather than the things we did?

[B]

Hugely important question, and this is a big, big deal. There's a lot of existing research on this. In the architecture of regret, there are two kinds of regrets. There are regrets of action, regrets of inaction. I regret something I did, I regret something I didn't do. Now what you see over and over again is that with action regrets, I regret something I did. If only I had married Fred instead of Ed, I would be much happier. All right, so we say if only. So that's what's called in the literature, an upward counterfactual. We think about how things could have been better.

[A]

And that's the dating one.

[B]

That's the. Well, yeah, that's, that's. If that's. If I. If only I had married. If only I had married Fred instead of instead of Ed, but with action Regrets. We can do what's called a downward counterfactual. We imagine how things could have turned out worse. And there's some really super cool research on this. But here's what, here's where it comes up in the database. Legions of people, all women, saying such, I shouldn't have married that idiot, but at least I have these two great kids. There's a famous piece of research. I love it. They showed photographs of the three medalists on the Olympic medal stand in a number of different situations, but they didn't show what medal they got. And they asked people, based on their facial expressions, how happy are they? And so, not surprisingly, the happiest looking people were the gold medalists. The second happiest people were the bronze medalists, not the silver medalists. Right. Because the silver medalists were doing an upward counterfactual. If only I had pedaled 4/10 of a second faster, I'd have the gold. The bronze medalists were doing a downward counterfactual. At least I have a bronze. Not like this schmo who's 4/10 of a second behind me, who's like, doesn't get a medal at all. And so for action regrets, we can at least them.

[A]

So I married the wrong person, and I regret doing that, but at least

[B]

I have these two great kids.

[A]

Okay, all right.

[B]

So it makes us feel better. It doesn't necessarily do better, but it makes us feel better with inaction regrets. We can't do that stuff.

[A]

That's true. Because if you didn't do it, you didn't do it.

[B]

You can't undo something you didn't do. You know, it's metaphysically impossible. You can't do it.

[A]

Let's say the person who's listening or watching right now is sitting on a big decision. Maybe it's about their career, maybe it's about a big move. And they're stuck in that overthinking, not quite sure what to do in terms of taking this risk or making this decision. What does your research suggest?

[B]

Yeah. So if you're, if you're thinking about that, you're not sure what to do, you can have. Imagine having a conversation with someone who you haven't met yet, but who cares deeply about you.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

And that is the U of 10 years from now.

[A]

So 10 years from now.

[B]

So imagine you're having a conversation with the U of 2036.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

What does that person want you to do? It's pretty freaking clear to me what that. What that person's going to want you to do, because that's what all the people in your list and all the people in my database want you to do. They want you to build a solid foundation for yourself and for your family. They want you to take that shot. They want you to do the right thing, and they want you to reach out. And it's pretty clear. And so have that conversation. You know what that person 10 years from now wants you to do. And you don't want to have the conversation where 10 years from now you have to tell the you of 2036, hey, I wimped out.

[A]

I blew it.

[B]

I blew it. I chickened out.

[A]

I love that. Let's move on to the final bucket of regrets that you found in your research. We have talked about connection, foundation, boldness. The fourth one is moral. What is moral? Regret.

[B]

You're at a juncture in your life. You have two choices. You can take the high road, you can take the low road. And when you take the low road, when you do the wrong thing, most of us most of the time regret it. And in this category, it was a small category, but very, very, very deeply held. And this is sort of the weird thing about this topic of regret, is that the more you go into it, at least for me, the better I feel about human beings. Because what this suggests to us is that most of us are good, most of us want to be good, and most of us feel shitty when we're not good. I think that, like 95% or 98% of us are good people who want to do the right thing. And when we don't do the right thing, we feel bad about that. 98% of people, like, want to do the right thing and feel bad. That's good. Those 2% mess things up for everybody else. So more regrets are, if only I'd done the right thing.

[A]

And so if the person who's listening right now is feeling that, wait, what's the first step to take in order to free themself of this burden that they've been carrying around?

[B]

So one thing, as I've mentioned before, is to treat yourself with kindness rather than contempt. Treat yourself with compassion. You are not the only person who has a moral regret. Every single human being has a moral regret. It doesn't mean that you're a shameful, terrible person. It means that you might have done a bad thing. And so it's also a kind of a moment in your life, a scene in your life rather than the full measure of your life. So there are different things that you can do if you've hurt somebody, right? If you have cheated somebody, if you have harmed somebody, in a way, go make amends.

[A]

How do you do that? If the person isn't here and you cannot forgive yourself, you play it over. You hold on to the regret about what happened.

[B]

First of all, you can talk about your regret. And the other thing, especially as we get older, we can instruct other people who are younger how to live better than we did.

[A]

So let's talk about how we deal with the regret we haven't dealt with. Let's go through the process based on this research. So now that we know that we're dealing with, whether it's a connection or foundation or boldness or a moral regret, let's look at your research and unpack for a stand. How do we actually face a regret that we haven't dealt with yet?

[B]

Okay, so I look at it as three stages, okay? Inward, outward, forward, inward, outward, forward, right? So inward, inward is what? Inward is basically how you treat yourself. And as I've mentioned, the, you know, the way we talk to ourselves in the face of screw ups is brutal and cruel. If you were to sort of implant in my head and like broadcast my self talk out there, if I would do that in a workplace, HR would be intervening immediately.

[A]

I'd drive you to the seventh floor over at Mass General Brigham right now. Exactly right. He's like, he's nuts. Get him out of here.

[B]

This is a madman the way he's talking to other people. Yes. So don't do that, please. And here's the thing. It's not only because it's not nice, because we have piles of evidence showing that that kind of horrifying, lacerating self criticism doesn't improve your performance. What does improve your performance is self compassion, which is treating yourself with kindness rather than contempt. Treating yourself the way you would treat a friend. And when we do that, okay, so that's inward. Treat yourself with kindness rather than contempt. Recognize that regrets are part of the human experience, I. E. You're not that special. And also, and this is, I think super important, is that it's a moment in your life. It's not the full measure of your life. And so when we do that, that opens the way to the second stage, which is outward. And there is a very, very strong argument here for writing about and talking about our regrets.

[A]

Why does writing about or talking about your regrets help you?

[B]

It does a few things. First, it's an unburdening because we're carrying something and you sort of say Oh, I got this heavy backpack on. Let me just put it on the table here. You're putting it on the table, right. But more important than that, and I think this is the really interesting thing, there's a guy at the University of Texas, Jamie Pennebaker, who's done a lot of research on this. If you write about a big regret you have for 15 minutes a day, for three days, you feel better about it. It's less.

[A]

Why do you think that works?

[B]

Because what you're doing is you're taking something blobby. You're taking this phantom that is stalking you and you're saying, okay, come here, sit down here, let's see what you're really made of. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. And you're converting this blobby thing into concrete words. And that helps you make sense of, makes it less menacing. We go from abstract to so much more concrete.

[A]

So we start with the N word, which is you gotta shift your self talk. And one of the ways to really leverage this research is to say I'm not the only person who's done this.

[B]

No way.

[A]

And if I can really embrace that, I did the best that I could at the time and I'm gonna stop beating myself up. That the inward is how you talk to yourself. It's like dropping the sword against yourself. Outward is get it out of your head.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And get it on paper. Or go talk to somebody about it. And that I love the exercise of just three days in a row for 15 minutes, write about it. And suddenly based on the research, you're gonna have this shift where you're like, well, okay, but what happens after you write about it?

[B]

Okay, this is the key. So the third part is forward. You gotta, but you gotta actually think hard and draw a lesson from it and say, what is this lesson telling me and what should I do next? There's some interesting research about self talk where we're actually more clear headed when we talk to ourselves in the third person. That's the third person, as crazy as it sounds. So instead of me saying, what should I do? What should Dan do?

[A]

Oh, so use your own name.

[B]

Yeah, use your own name.

[A]

Mel, what should you do?

[B]

Right? And so, but you idiot, you should

[A]

reach out if you're thinking about it.

[B]

No, but also it also, but on the lesson it's like, okay, okay, what lesson is this teaching Mel? What lesson is this teaching Mel? All right. And explain in a sentence. And in most cases people, in most cases people know because none of this is. I don't think Any of this is super complex. Okay, what should Mel do next? So what is this in a sentence? What is this teaching? Mel, Jose, Fred, Maria, whoever, Right? So use your name in it.

[A]

Use your name.

[B]

Use your name. What lesson is this teaching? Fill in the blank. Okay, what should fill in the blank do next? Okay, so let's go back to, I don't know. Give me any kind of. Give me any kind of regret.

[A]

I am just flipping through 100 plus pages, marrying the man who left me and my kids in a terrible divorce. Okay, there's one. Okay, I'll give you a couple more. Living with so many limitations, waiting for a better time to call my best friend, she passed away. I regret living away from my parents and siblings, not trusting myself, not taking my small children to see my parents more. Fell in love with a married man, thought he'd leave his wife. Regret not working harder in my 20s. I'm reading through all of these regrets.

[B]

So just. So let's take any one, Dan. Okay, so let's take.

[A]

Because we all know they're not unique and you're not special, and you're not the only idiot.

[B]

Let's take the. I didn't call my friend, then they passed away.

[A]

Yeah, and here's. Yes, absolutely, there's that one. Letting my best friend and I drift apart.

[B]

Okay, here we go. Let's take that one. That's an easy one. All right.

[A]

I love that. It. Dan's like, that's an easy one. You've been torturing yourself for a decade, but that's an easy one.

[B]

They're all relatively. They're all. They're not easy.

[A]

They're simple.

[B]

They're simple. And here's the thing. It's much easier for me to look at it from the outside than it is for the person who's inhabiting that body and soul and heart to see that. And so one of the things you want to do is you want to kind of get outside of yourself. This is why. This is why the. You know, the way we talk to ourselves is incredibly important. If somebody comes to me saying, dan, I need advice, I don't know what I should do, I say, what would you tell your friend to do in that situation? You tell your friend, another friend, pick up the phone, send a text, send an email.

[A]

Well, you know, every time I go to a funeral, when somebody dies unexpectedly or they die young, I sit at their celebration of life service, and I think about how I wish I would have stayed in closer contact. I think about how I wish I would have Reached out more. And it was attending a number of funerals that made me start this habit where I just have a habit of texting a friend every day, just randomly.

[B]

A great. I mean, I think that is a. I think that is a great strategy. Now, here's the thing. I think it's great for your friends. I think it's great for you.

[A]

Of course it is. Because I feel like even though I can't reach out to everybody every single day, and I can't, I'm not the greatest in getting back on text right away, but I feel like I'm the kind of person who makes a effort to proactively reach out because connection and friendship matters to me.

[B]

Have you always done that?

[A]

No. I've let work and I've let worries and I've let feelings of being, like, a bad person or beliefs that people maybe don't like me or whatever else keep me from doing that. Or I've let just.

[B]

What allowed you to push past it?

[A]

Sitting at funerals.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

And feeling like I wish I would have reached out more or, like, sitting. You know, even things Dan like. And it's weird because I don't know that I regret it. Actually, here's what I'm gonna say. I don't regret it now because I've moved through it. So when my career really began, it was beginning kind of like a phoenix rising from the ashes of financial distress. I often joke that I'm not pop. Positively motivated. I need a negative motivation. Like, it's pretty amazing how talented you can be when you got problems to solve, like paying your bills and putting food on the table.

[B]

Necessity as a mother.

[A]

Yes, it is. I worked and worked and worked and worked and worked and worked and worked because my highest value was safety and security. And I basically missed out on our daughter's middle school and high school. And at the time, I regretted it. And at the time, it was painful to see how much I was missing out on and all the games that I miss and. But I've really looked at that period of my life and said to myself, yes, and I am so glad I put my head down and got us out of debt. And I did what I needed to do. And knowing what the situation was, I could have made a different choice, but that would have come with different consequences. And so I can see it fully, which relieved me of the burden. And so I used to make myself wrong for having, quote, let friendships go or not, quote, being a good friend or not keeping up with friends. But I just look through the last two decades of my life, as. Wow, you had a lot going on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it wasn't your top priority, and that's okay. But now you realize that this actually really matters to you. And so you gotta figure out, woman, how to insert this in small ways, because this is a core value.

[B]

How is your relationship with that daughter now?

[A]

My daughter's fantastic. And it was good then because dad was staying at home, and so they have a amazing relationship with both of us. But I just felt like I was missing out, and I had resentment around it, and I felt like I couldn't be everywhere at once, and so I sort of regretted it.

[B]

You know why you felt that way?

[A]

Why?

[B]

Cause you couldn't be everywhere at once.

[A]

It's that simple.

[B]

And so you apply the lesson going forward. And so now that I'm at a different point in my life, I can and actually have the freedom, the bandwidth, the wherewithal to reach out. You have to do that.

[A]

You know, Dan, I would just love for you to talk to the person who's listening or watching right now, and if they're thinking of somebody that they care deeply about, who is really struggling with regret, what do you want them to do or know?

[B]

I want you to convey to the person who is struggling with regret that, number one, they're not alone, that this is one of the most common experiences that human beings have, and it's telling you something important, and if you just listen to it, you're going to be better off. That it's not something that can bring you down, that when you do it right, it's something that can lift you up.

[A]

Well, what I love about the fact that you made time to come here today is that one thing you can do is share this conversation with them and let Dan get through to them with the research. Because I think it's one of those things that you sit with alone, but when you hear the research and these frameworks, you immediately feel a little lighter.

[B]

Because here's the thing. No one's taught us this. This is the thing. Somehow we've been taught the idea that, as I said, you should be positive all the time and never be negative and always look forward and never look back. And that's bad advice. That's bad advice. What you should be doing is saying regret is part of the human experience. It's a signal. It's a knock at the door, answer the door, see what it has to tell you, and in the systematic way, approach it, draw a lesson from it, and you're going to be better off, you're going to find more meaning in life. You're going to be happier in life. And for a lot of stuff on the job, you're going to perform better

[A]

on the job, too, Whether that job is being a parent or being at work or being married. I don't know if you can do this because you poured so much into us today and taught us so much. But if you had to distill everything down about all this research on regret, Dan Pink, what do you think the single most important takeaway is for the person listening?

[B]

Regret makes us human, and regret makes us better.

[A]

Dan Pink, what are your parting words?

[B]

I thought those are pretty good parting words. You know, I was ready to. I mean, if this is a handheld mic, I would have dropped it. The parting words are regret is part of the human experience. It's one of the things that makes us human. Everybody has regret. And you have a choice. You can ignore your regrets or you can wallow in your regrets, or you can confront your regrets. And when we do that in a kind way toward ourselves, it makes us better. We get more out of life, we deepen our relationships, we find a greater sense of meaning, and we don't waste our precious time on this planet.

[A]

Dan Pink, thank you for all the work you're doing. Thank you for this research. Thank you for making the time to come to Boston.

[B]

What a pleasure to come to Boston. Thank you.

[A]

It was.

[B]

And come here and talk to you.

[A]

Well, thank you. And here's what I appreciate about you. I appreciate that you took a topic that most of us don't know how to talk about that is universal. And you didn't just come in and tell us about it. You gave us a framework to better understand this universal human experience, to put our regrets in these four buckets of boldness, foundation, moral connection. And then based on understanding what we're dealing with, you gave us very specific tools based on the research to set ourselves free from the prison that we put ourselves in. And on behalf of the person that's listening, on behalf of everybody that they will share this with, I want to thank you for the gift of all these tools and for giving us a way to think about, process and move through one of the most common and universal experiences that we will have as human beings. Thank you.

[B]

It's been a joy. Thank you.

[A]

You're welcome. And thank you. It has been a joy to be here with you. I'm so excited for you and I'm excited for everybody that you share this extraordinary conversation. Research with. I mean, just imagine how incredible it's gonna feel to relieve yourself of the burden of carrying these regrets and instead use the research you just learned about to learn from them, to create a better future, to help to continue becoming the kind of person that you really wanna become. I loved this. I loved being here with you. And one more thing. In case nobody else tells you this, today, as your friend, I would regret not telling you this. I want you to know that I love you, and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And one of the reasons why we just had to talk about this extraordinary research is because everything that we learned today, using regret as a teacher as a signal to help us make changes that will make our lives better. That is how you create a better life. All righty. I will see you in the very next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. Because it sounds like it might be one of those things that you regretted not doing 100%. Which brings us to our conversation.

[B]

Oh, what a segue.

[A]

So, Bri, how are we doing? Are we good? Awesome. Happy birthday again. Okay, here we go.

[B]

God dang, this kid was just, like, born. Wait a second. How is it possible that I have a kid who's 22 years old? Like, I'm, like, 26. Or, you know, like. You know what I mean? It's like, you feel like you're, like, way younger than you really are. My wife allows me one sports metaphor a day, and so I'm on a very strict diet, and I don't think I've used one yet. There's a baseball metaphor here where, you know, like, there's a. There's a pitcher, and the pitcher is getting clobbered. The manager always says, I kept the pitcher in too long.

[A]

Dan, this may sound like a really, I don't know, obvious or dumb question.

[B]

It's been a joy. Thank you.

[A]

How do you feel?

[B]

I feel good. That was a good conversation. It's super interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have to say, I am sort of blown away by the intentionality of how you guys approach this. It's not the norm. You know that.

[A]

Thank you. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

[B]

SiriusXM podcasts. That is one fresh carrot straight out of the Bosch fridge. What was that? You're in a Bosch. Uh, I'm the feeling you get like a proto space fr. Can I just. You're in the fridge, baby. Grab some more carrots. Help yourself. Carrots. The more you bosh, the more you feel like a bosh.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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