← The Mello Millionaire with Tommy Mello
The Mello Millionaire with Tommy Mello
How To Earn Trust and Influence According to Renowned Psychologist Robert Cialdini
00:39:17
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- [00:00]
A
A quote from Benjamin Franklin who said, if you wish to persuade, speak not to argument, speak to self interest of the recipient. You have to put yourself in that person's situation. The challenges that person is in at the moment. You tell them what they will benefit from the exchange, not why it's good for you, but why it exactly will benefit them.
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B
Prominent, persuasive, charismatic, Our guest today is largely regarded as one of the most influential psychologists and behavioral scientists of our time.
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A
I love finding the answers to things that I'm curious about.
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B
Dr. Robert Cialdini is the best selling author of the Psychology of Persuasion, a book that has sold over 5 million copies, been translated into 40 languages and remains one of the most cited works in both psychology and marketing.
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A
Seek not dishonest gains. Dishonest gains are losses.
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B
Today his research continues to shape how leaders, marketers and everyday people understand the science and ethics of influence.
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A
Tell me what you're paying attention to and I'll tell you who you are.
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B
All right, guys, welcome back to the Mellow Millionaire podcast. Today's an amazing day because I got the one and only Robert Shedini and his wife Bob met in the studio. Our guest today is one of the most influential psychologists of our time, Dr. Robert Chedini, the best selling author of Influence the Psychology of Persuasion, a book that sold over 5 million copies, been translated into 40 languages and remains one of the most cited works in psychology and marketing. Today's research continues to shape how leaders, marketers and everyday people understand the science and the ethics of influence. We've had you on home service expert. I've read your books, I've gone to your seminars. Why don't we just talk a little bit about where you're at today? You know, I know you taught at asu. What got you so obsessed in the influence game? And what are you excited about?
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A
I think that I'm excited about taking this to a broader audience than we have done before, making sure that the people who have paid for my research after all with your taxes, with your donations to my universities, and so you've paid for that research. You're entitled to know what I found out about Persuasion with your money. Right. So I want to get programs available to people to understand the practices and procedures that make people most likely to say yes to us, how you can do it in an efficient and ethical way. Yeah, we've got dynamite. And you can, you can use dynamite to blow up a bridge. You can do use dynamite to help build a bridge. We're going to be on the building side I love it.
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B
Let's just start out with what is ethical influence? Let's start there.
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A
Ethical influence is the ability to move people in your direction by informing them into. Yes, by educating them into assent, so that they know the value proposition that you offer them that is worthwhile to them, but you just haven't known how to properly phrase it or deliver it. It's about the presentation of your case, not the core merits of your case. I can't change that. I can change the way you deliver the merits of your case that makes people psychologically more attracted to it.
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B
It's so much fun because there's a great book by Daniel Pink called the Sell as Human. And selling is just normal. Like when you meet your. Your fiance for the first time, or your wife or your husband, or you're getting your kids to make their bed, it's like, we've got to have persuasion, and it's not a bad thing. You talk about reciprocity, commitment, consistency, social proof, authority, liking, and scarcity.
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A
Yeah, let's talk. It turns out that we've added one.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Called unity. And it's about saying yes to people because you feel a sense of togetherness or partnership with them, not that you necessarily feel similar to them. You feel that you belong together. Let me give you an example from a study that was done because you were just talking about, what do you say to somebody you meet for the first time, who's a potential date or relationship partner or even an existing relationship partner? What do you say when the two of you have a difference of opinion and you just can't get past that issue? It turns out there's this study that was done in Texas where they take people who were together in a relationship for more than two and a half years. Okay. And they give them each. They say, we're going to flip a coin. One of you, we're going to ask you to persuade the other to come into line with you on a topic that you haven't been able to get resolution on together.
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B
It can be religion, politics, anything.
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A
It could be anything. All right? And then the researchers leave the room and they are listening in and they're watching through one way mirrors, and they look at what people say to get their partner to say yes to them. And they found three kinds of people. One used coercion. If you don't do this for me, you'll be sorry. Not only didn't that work, it moved people in the opposite direction. You can. You can. You can relate to that. Right? Any boss who does that to you?
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B
Because I said so.
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A
Yeah, because. All right, the others were called the rational, logical group. They said to their partner, if you'll just look at this situation, you'll see that I have the most rational, logical position on this. That didn't produce polarization. It just produced laughter. Oh, yeah, sure. No change at all. And then there was a small group of people, only 15%, the only ones who got change.
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B
Empathy.
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A
It was. It was to say. To use the term we and say, you know, we've been together for two years. I'd really appreciate if you do this for us. You see what, it's not me versus you, it's us. It's weness. And it's the only ones who changed. Simply using the term we, you change the mindset from conflict to collaboration. The only ones who got significant change. Just use the word we.
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B
I'm just trying to think about Bree, and when I want to take her out to eat and she doesn't agree is we both like chicken. I'm going to learn this. There's probably a lot of techniques I could learn, and I'm not trying to manipulate. I'm just trying to, like, figure. The problem is now I'm just like, pick three and I'll choose one.
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A
But see, here's the brilliance of it. Isn't it true that you. You and Brie are a we?
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B
Oh, absolutely. We're a unit.
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A
And. And what the researchers in this study did was take people away from that. They said, focus on this difference between you. And the 15% wouldn't have it. They said, no, what we really are is a unit. I'm going to use the word we. I'm going to focus on the connection, on the togetherness of us. I'm going to bring that to top of consciousness, not the difference on this one topic. I'm going to say that's all you just bring to top of consciousness. We ness instead of difference.
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B
I love it.
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A
Made the difference.
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B
I. I need to learn how to really implement these. I. I understand. So reciprocity. We do very good job. Resurprodicity is pretty simple. With respect. And like, you come in to offer something if you want something in response. Commitment. Let's go over, like, an example of commitment.
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A
People say yes to those requests that are consistent with what they have already said or done or valued. Yes. So here's an example from a restaurant, right? Restaurants have a problem with no shows. People who book a table and then they don't appear. All right, so there's this guy in Chicago Gordon Sinclair, Gordon's Restaurant. And he read my book. And he made one change to what his receptionist says when she takes a booking, right? She used to say, please call if you have to change or cancel your reservation. Right. He asked her to add two words and to say, will you please call if you have to change or cancel your reservation? And then pause. Let them fill it with a commitment to do it unannounced. No shows dropped at Gordon's restaurant by 62% that day and never went back up for two words because they engaged the power, the psychological power of wanting to be consistent with a public commitment that you have made.
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B
I love that. You know, you. You familiar with the guy? Chris Voss?
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A
Oh, yeah.
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B
One of the things he said is instead of asking people, hey, do you got a minute to chat? Robert or Bob?
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A
Yeah.
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B
He says, have you given up. Have you get. Have you given up on looking for a garage? He always wants to get no out of people, to get rid of the no.
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A
Get rid of the no.
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B
Because not. People are really excited to say no.
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A
Then they're committed to saying, I haven't given up. So what's the next step? Yeah, what's. What's logically congruent with I haven't given up? Well, brilliant. I. I've got a friend who's a. A Boy scout leader, right? He's got two kids in the boy Scout, and he sells popcorn outside of supermarkets. And he sets up a desk, and people come out and they. They sell them popcorn right as they leave. And he said to me, we're having a terrible time. We're only getting about 15% of the people who come out who want to buy our popcorn. Well, I. I can understand why. If you wanted popcorn, you would have bought it in the shop, and you already spent your. Your budget. You're not. So I said, well, what do. What do you say to them when they approach? We say, excuse me, would you like to buy some popcorn? It would help the Boy Scouts. We only get 15%. So I tried this. Excuse me, do you support the Boy Scouts? Everybody says, yes. And then you say, would you like to buy some popcorn?
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B
Order of operations.
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A
And it goes from 15% to 52%.
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B
Oh, my goodness.
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A
And here's the best part of it, People. Some people say, you know, I don't really want your popcorn, but I support the Boy Scouts. So here's five bucks.
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B
I love that. All right, social proof. Let's run over that one.
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A
That's the one that says, people say yes to you. If you can show Them that a lot of other people like them have been doing what you're recommending them to do.
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B
So like right now, I could pull up a map on my iPad and show you everybody in your neighborhood that's bought a new garage.
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A
That's right.
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B
That's a good example.
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A
That's exactly right. Or just to say, look, a lot of your neighbors, that we have good things to say about us.
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B
No, there's this new product we're getting ready to work with and it says so they got the options and it's most popular. Top choice. Top choice. And even if you could go further and put 977 customers, authority is pretty simple. But let's just talk about authority.
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A
When people are uncertain, they don't look inside of themselves to decide what to do. And a lot of times people aren't sure they want to move in your direction. Right. But if you give them evidence that people who are legitimate authorities have praised your product or your approach, your, your business, whatever it is, if you put that at the top of your presentation before they have seen one word of it, they're more likely to say yes. Because everything they see now is infused with the credibility of the experts who reduce their uncertainty. Oh, yeah. If the experts say this is the way to go, then I believe it. Then I'm likely to go in that direction.
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B
So selfishly, I'll ask you for Grazers, you might put like the Property Brothers or Mike Rowe or somebody like somebody that's kind of like blue collar savant.
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A
That's I would say, exactly right.
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B
Okay.
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A
The experts in that field in that domain. So people say yes to those they like. And here's the key to those who like them. That's what gets. I've been in a lot of sales training programs and they say the number one rule of sales is get your customer to like you. That works, but it's not the number one rule. Here's the number one rule. Show your customer that you like them. Yeah.
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B
So what I say is there's three things that need to happen. And I coached three hours today on this during orientation. I said, number one, the customer needs to like and trust you. Right? I mean, they need to know that you're the expert. Number two, they got to love the company and believe that we're going to back up everything. And number three, they got to feel loved.
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A
They got to feel approved.
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B
And the way that we do that is we laugh at their jokes, we take notes when they talk, simple little things like smiling when they, when they ask a question, you don't respond right away, you internalize it. You know, it's like Dale Carnegie probably said the same thing, is like, let them talk, take a minute, tell them that was a really great question and actually maybe even ask them another question on a question to like dig in deeper.
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A
That's exactly right. And now there's some new research to show. How do you get liking online? Those people don't know you. They don't, you can't, they're, they're not familiar with you.
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B
They're, I guess the same thing with TV or radio.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. So it turns out there's a study that was done that shows that if you have a welcoming statement on your, the landing page of your website, you get significantly more conversions before. Again, before they've ever read a word of your offer or business. You've put them in a state that you approve of them, you've welcomed them, and you get significantly more conversion. Isn't it true? Again, it's ethical. Don't you welcome the people who come to your site? Don't you want to welcome them? Of course. You just didn't say it. It didn't, it didn't go to top of consciousness scarcity. People want more of those things they can have less of. Right. Okay, so if you can show people how what you have is unique or uncommon or rare, that they can't get it from your rivals, they want it more from you. And sometimes it's not any one thing. And here's what a one does. You have a combination of strengths that nobody can match. And what you can do is put together that suite of strengths that nobody else can provide. And it's, again, it's ethical because it's true. You haven't exaggerated, you haven't manufactured, you haven't counterfeited anything.
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B
What do you think is the biggest misconception people have about human behavior?
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A
That it's cognitively based rather than emotional.
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B
What's one book other than your own that you'd recommend to every high achiever?
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A
Dan Pink's To Sell the Human.
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B
Okay, what's harder, Changing minds or changing habits?
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A
Changing habits is harder because again, you can change. You can get people to agree to do something, but that's not the same as getting them to implement that intention or that belief. That's the thing. Get them to engage in a habit that, that captures the belief and that's.
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B
What you're focused on, is implementation. What are some of the steps people take to really, instead of understanding and learning, how do they apply it, this.
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A
Is what we have learned. Give them small steps because if you give them these big changes that they have to make, it's just sometimes too much. They've busy days, busy schedule. They're not going to change the way that they have been doing things, especially if they've been somewhat successful.
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B
What's one thing that never stops surprising you about people from a psychological perspective?
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A
They think that they're, that they're less persuadable than they actually are. They think that this wouldn't work on me. Oh yeah, these principles may work on other people, but they wouldn't work on me. And it's just not true. These principles work and the evidence is they work in a general universal way.
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B
So let's go back in time. You're in your 20s, you get to go back and talk to yourself. What's a few pieces of game changing advice they'd give long young Robert Ciardini.
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A
Okay, one is a quote from Benjamin Franklin who said, if you wish to persuade, speak not to argument, speak to self interest of the recipient. You have to think, you have to. Now here's where empathy comes in. You have to put yourself in that person's situation, the challenges that person is in at the moment, the circumstances surrounding this. And you tell them what they will benefit from the exchange with you from being not why it's good for you, but why it exactly will benefit them. And the things like scarcity, uniqueness that you can only provide and so on and dealing with somebody they like and who likes them. Those are exactly the kinds of things you can say that aren't just oh, you're going to save money here. No, you're going to get a partner who likes you. You're going to get a set of strengths that you can't get any. Those are the kinds of. So that's one thing I would say to myself from 20 and here's the other one, people don't sink the boats they're riding in. And your job as a communicator is to put the recipient in your boat with you. Here's what Warren Buffett does on every letter to his shareholders. He first mentions something that went wrong that year and he establishes his credibility as being an honest broker of information to them. And then he says but or however or nonetheless. And then he goes into the strengths. I've been getting these and I'm telling you it works on me every time because now I'm processing the strengths differently than before because I know they're coming from an honest person. Who's willing to talk not just about the strengths, but the weaknesses. And then give me evidence that wipes out the weaknesses. Here are the strengths. Right. That just.
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B
Well, plus there's the idea that your $75,000 share is now in almost 800,000 over 10x.
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A
That's right. But I'm telling you that that man is brilliant.
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B
He is brilliant.
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A
So I wouldn't, I wouldn't mind having people say, you know, we're not the least expensive in the here in town Earth in our industry. But. Right. Do you know what? L' Oreal Cosmetics had a marketing campaign that said, we're expensive, but you're worth it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Increased market share by 300%.
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B
Oh, wow.
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A
Bring down the barrier of doubt. Am I. Should I believe this person? You tell them something that is true, but may not be all that great. That you're not the least expensive. But here's what wipes out that. Because you're worth it. Oh, and I should tell you that the first version of that ad was we're expensive, but we're worth it. And it didn't work.
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B
You are make it possess.
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A
Make it about them. Make it about self interest.
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B
You'd done something with Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett and Berkshire. And I love that story. And I think you own a little bit of Berkshire Hathaway. Can you tell that story?
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A
25 years ago, I went to my mailbox and there's an envelope, legal size envelope. And I opened it up and it's a single share. It's on paper. Back in 25 years ago. That's. They were, you know, they weren't just digitally sent to you. There's a single share of Berkshire Hathaway, a stock, and it's worth $75,000. And there's a note attached to. From Charlie Munger, who was renowned as the brains of Berkshire Hathaway. And that's a high bar because Warren Buffett is the other guy at the top. And the note from Charlie says the first chapter in your book, Influence is about the rule for reciprocation that we are obligated to give back to others who have given value to us. We have made so much money from your book that you're entitled to this $75,000. Okay. And I was in a chair with wheels on it. I read that and it knocked me back in my chair and I rolled into the wall behind me. It's now worth $735,000 for one chair. Because Buffett and Munger, they're amazing financial investors. And I just held it because. Hey, that's from Charlie Munger.
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B
That is so cool. The late Charlie Munger.
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A
The late Charlie. He died one month before his hundredth birthday. Bobette and I were planning to go to his birthday party, and we had our tickets and we had our hotel, and then he. He passed. And so it was. It was a tragedy.
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B
I love reading their books. I just think this is a cool story about the How. Wait. Waiters and waitresses can earn 23% by using a law of reciprocation. It's a cool story.
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A
Yeah. And again, research is not just my hunch or speculation. If a waiter comes to the table with the bill on a tray, that's the control group. All right, how much do they tip? If the waiter puts a single mint, tips go up 13%. If the waiter puts two mints on the tray for each diner and they say two mints relate for us two, they go up 17%. If the waiter puts one on the tray and walks away and then turns around and comes back and uses approval and says, you know what? For you nice people, because you've been such good guests, gives them liking, right? And puts the second mint down in front of them, the tip goes up 23%. Right? So he's got reciprocity and liking in that combined. And you get these gangbuster results.
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B
I actually want to ask you this to poke some holes in it. So we've got some things that are high value, low cost, like a surge protector and a magnetic deco hardware kit. And so me and Luke have been talking about this and saying, look, Bob, you've been a great client of ours. Second time we've come out here. I want you to pick whichever one you think would be the highest value because you've been such a great client, and then walk out to the truck and grab it. And, you know, we've been thinking about this, but we'd like to give you both. I want. Would that.
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A
That would.
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B
I just. I want to make sure.
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A
Wow, that's great.
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B
Social proof is everywhere. Reviews, likes, followers, you know, it's everywhere now. Do you think the modern obsession with metrics strengthens or distorts the original psychology behind customer decisions?
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A
Provided it's ethical, provided it's honest, it strengthens them. But here's the study again. We're also talking about a study. So if you wrote, if you have, let's say, 90% of dentists approve of our toothpaste, right? If Instead you said 89%, you get more conversions because you've shown Them you're honest and it's up there at 80. It's still up there like this. What you have to be sure of is that you don't because, you know, the worst was 9 out of 10. That just sounds like you pulled that off the top of your head or.
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B
What would even be better is 89.2%.
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A
Exactly. They, I mean, they know. Remember in, in, in school, your, like math teacher said, don't just give me the answer. Show your work.
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B
Yeah.
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A
If you've got 82, 89.2, you did your work to find the real statistics. They're going to honest. You're gonna, they're gonna see your honesty.
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B
Yeah. No, I love the idea. They just came out with a study that the garage store improves your home's value by 260%.
- [28:44]
A
Yeah. Not just almost 290. No, 268.
- [28:48]
B
And what we're gonna do, check this out. I think this is the coolest thing. Right at the end, whatever door you go, it's going to show your house on Zillow before and after.
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A
Wow.
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B
Which is, I think, a pretty good idea because it's an investment into your home. Wall Street Journal just came out and said, before you think about remodeling your bathrooms, it might not be worth it, but your garage door is.
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A
You know what, Tommy? You're interviewing me, but I learned from you in these interviews too. No, I. Oh, absolutely.
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B
You know, a lot of times people will say, wow, that's more than I thought it was going to be. And a lot of times I tell the guys, say, yeah, it's an investment because. Yeah, because you're worth it. I want to do a real life demonstration of your methods of influence in real time. And so, and listen, I don't mean to put you on the spot. If this doesn't go well, we could try something else. But try to convince me not to read your book. Do it in a way that actually makes me want to read it.
- [29:54]
A
Okay. You know, that book is written for an audience of intelligent lay people, people who are not trained in psychology, but who are interested in psychology. So if you're not interested in the psychology, I don't want you reading it. I don't want you wasting your time on persuasion. If that's not important to you, that's really good.
- [30:25]
B
This is a personal question. So, you know, the first four letters of culture are cultural, and it cults. It's a bad word, I guess, but call it a team and you're getting people aligned. You could call It a brotherhood or a sisterhood. You know, we have one on 900 people here. And I believe I want the best things. I want to take care of our clients. More importantly, I want to take care of the people. But I need them to believe and I need them to know they're doing the right thing for the client. But some of them think that's a lot of money, yet they live in an apartment known, a pair of Jordans and a Nike T shirt that costs $300. But what would be the best way to create that community?
- [31:02]
A
Put them in the boat with you.
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B
Put them in the boat with you.
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A
And show them the unity, the togetherness, the partnership, the value and the self interest of being in that strong, speedy, powerful boat with you. People don't sink the boats they're riding in.
- [31:26]
B
So there's a book called Driven. This is a personal question. It's like you reach the pinnacle of success. Could be faith, could be family, could be, could be physical. You know, it could be even financially. But the goalpost always moves. And I'm just curious from your point of view. I'm sure you've seen these people. I mean, you might, you know, you still go to asu, you still do massive research, and, and, you know, I just, I never felt this feeling like I've arrived. And I think there's a lot of people out there that feel the same way. And we're more prone to be called dyslexic or ADHD and everything else, but yet Einstein was dyslexic and probably considered adhd. When you, you've met these people.
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A
Sure.
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B
And so what do you tell them? What, what are.
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A
I value them. I value their, their differentiation from the other 95%. But I'll tell you something that I think they need to understand that makes it okay to be that driven person. I'm going to go back to Charlie Munger. He was a capitalist to the bone. Right. But he was what I'll call an inclusive capitalist. He said to me once, the purpose of accumulating wealth is to be in a position to help people who are in peril.
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B
Yeah. Well, that's. I think the Bible says that too. Yeah.
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A
So now you've got the resources to do that, to help in a broader way.
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B
You have a lot more.
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A
And you don't have to blame yourself for collecting that wealth, for accumulating that wealth, because it puts you in a position to be a helper.
- [33:14]
B
I love that. You know, one of the things we've always said is you can't Take it with you. Right. Two more questions. Do you have any habits that have changed your life?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Research.
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A
Here's the one that. That has worked for me all the. The most, I would say, in terms of pushing me ahead. And that is when I have some task that is arduous or negative or bother, you know, it's just not a fun thing to do. I get rid of it by getting done with it. I don't procrastinate by diverting myself or displacing myself from that task. I mean, I don't do that. I get through it, and that makes it go away rather than putting my mind on something else. Yeah.
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B
All right, last thing. Then we'll get out of here and go to dinner. When's the last time someone changed your mind about something and persuaded you it.
- [34:25]
A
Was Bobette and I saw a movie together, and then we talked about. And I didn't like it. And then we talked about it, and she started bringing up things I didn't even see. And I went from negative to wanting to see it again. What movie? It was called Anatomy of a Fall.
- [34:50]
B
Yeah. Well, listen, you've got so much going on, you know, what are you excited about here in the next few months going into the next year?
- [34:59]
A
We've got a program coming up in December that I'm really excited about where we're going to bring in a very small number of people, only 75 people, and really focus on moving them from a level of understanding of the principles of influence to a level of knowing how to apply them.
- [35:24]
B
I. I'm sending. I'm sending a couple guys. So we're. We're setting that up. Well, listen, I'll give you the final thoughts. Close us out. I can't be at this event. It's December 5th and 6th, but I'm going to have a couple people there on my team. So, yeah, give us some final thoughts. I'll let you close this out.
- [35:45]
A
Here's what I'm going to. My final thoughts. Select the right people for that event, the people who can articulate what they learned, not just to you, but to their peers.
- [36:00]
B
All right, I'm on it. I've been to a lot of his seminars. If you want to catch him. There's only 75 seats. It's December 5th and 6th. It's called influence Unleashed, and it's going to be in tempe at the Mr. Joe Polish, one of the best networkers of all time. And if you want to save some money, there's $500 off any ticket. It's just a one garage, capital letters. I'm not making any money. I'm not an affiliate here. I just support this guy and his wife Bobette that's sitting back there. What do you want to tell us real quick, Robert? What can they expect from this event?
- [36:37]
A
I don't know if any of your listeners, viewers are sports fans, but I've never tired of seeing after a loss coaches or players saying we had this great game plan and everybody understood it but we didn't execute it. This event is about executing the practice of influence. It's not about just understanding those principles and practices and techniques that move people toward. Yes, it's about moving to their implementation and focusing on that, that link. And we're going to spend a couple of days drilling down on how you, how you do it. Not just what the principles are, but how, how you make them work for you. I love it.
- [37:33]
B
Listen guys, December 5th and 6th in Tempe, Arizona. This is a. Do not want to miss limited seats, 75 seats. Well, listen Bob, as always, it's a pleasure to have you always inspired, excited, kind of just giggle to myself like because these things are, they're simple but they're, they have, you just got to do a little bit of the work. And I like the bite sizes. Yeah, I like that idea because you read the book and you're like there's a million things to do but just get a couple right and then watch your work and then you're a believer for life. So thanks again for being here and thank you Bobette.
- [38:06]
A
I enjoyed it. Tommy.
- [38:08]
B
Yeah, it's always fun. Thanks so much for listening to this episode like always. We're going to close it out with the Tommy Truth, which is a little slice of wisdom from me to you that can help guide you in whatever you're striving towards. Right now, a three dollar cup of coffee can lead to a 250 million dollar company in revenue. So I read this book called Influence by Robert Chedini. He also wrote a book called Pre Suasion. And what we learned is there's seven ways to influence people's outcome. And one of my favorite ones is the law of reciprocity. Because it works in every single country, every ethnicity, every language. When somebody does something for you, you want to do something back. Even if you bring the dog a bone. It goes a mile with clients. A1 this year will do north of $250 million in revenue. A part of that success comes from one other tactic. Our techs call the customer on the way and say, I'm stopping for coffee. Can I grab something for you on the way? Think about that. It's unexpected, it's thoughtful, and it starts the relationship off on the right foot. That's the principle of reciprocity in action, my friends. And that's it, guys. We'll talk to you next week.