Ana Gasteyer Gets Real About Wicked, SNL, and the Hustle of Showbiz (Re-Release)

Summary

The Messy Parts with Maryam Banikarim
Episode: Ana Gasteyer Gets Real About Wicked, SNL, and the Hustle of Showbiz (Re-Release)
Date: December 8, 2025

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Episode Overview

This rich conversation between host Maryam Banikarim and her guest, the multitalented Ana Gasteyer, dives deep into Gasteyer’s winding, remarkable career—from classical music and improv, to her iconic run on Saturday Night Live (SNL), to starring as Elphaba in Wicked, and more. The episode candidly explores the “messy parts” of success: career pivots, rejection, self-doubt, work-life chaos, and finding creative joy amidst uncertainty. Gasteyer shares honest advice for creative hustlers, reflects on the realities of show business, and offers wisdom on self-advocacy and resilience—all with humor and self-awareness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Roots, Outsider Status, and Finding “Her People”

[01:33 - 06:42]

• Classical Training & Broadway Dreams: Gasteyer grew up playing violin, immersed in classical music and Broadway soundtracks, but "didn’t think showbiz was what I would do, exactly."
• College & Perspective: Chose Northwestern because "it was the only school I got into," crediting her educational path for exposing her to new points of view beyond her East Coast upbringing.
• Comedy as Calling: Joined improv after "meeting my people—there’s just this moment you find a kinship with people who think like you do." She discovered the importance of being a “maker and a doer”: "They were motivated to not sit around waiting to get cast in something."
• Embracing Outsider-ness: Gasteyer describes always being an outsider—geographically, ethnically, in comedy and theater—ultimately seeing it as a source of strength:
  • “I don’t spend a lot of time worrying about it. I think it actually just means you have a different and more interesting perspective.” ([07:25])

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2. The Hustle: Improv, The Groundlings, and Breaking Into SNL

[08:49 - 16:28]

• Post-College Scramble: Drifted around California, then “buckle[d] down” at 24, joining The Groundlings and performing with “The Real Live Brady Bunch” tour.
• SNL Breakthrough:
  • The 1995/96 cast shakeup led to auditions for new talent; Will Ferrell recommended Gasteyer and others from The Groundlings.
  • The SNL audition is “a little one person show…you have to write it yourself.” ([12:36])
  • Managed nerves by rehearsing her audition in silence (“my husband just sat like Mount Rushmore and stared at me while I practiced”—[14:43]), prepping for the famously unresponsive SNL panel.
• Key Lesson: “There have been a few auditions in my life where I’ve left everything on the table, where the win was not whether I got the job. It was whether or not I did what I could have done.” ([13:34])
  Notable quote: “The win was not whether I got the job. It was whether or not I did what I could have done.” – Ana ([13:34])

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3. Transitioning to Broadway: The “Impossible Role” of Elphaba

[16:28 - 18:02]

• Switch from TV to Theater: After SNL, Gasteyer set her sights on Broadway—a challenging pivot, especially for someone known for comedy.
  • "It's actually harder in some ways because it's really hard to work on Broadway...and understandably people are annoyed when television people show up and want to do it, too." ([16:44])
• Originating Elphaba in Chicago: Auditioned for the role (twice), and though she didn’t replace Idina Menzel on Broadway, she was cast to originate the role in the Chicago company—emphasizing unpredictability in success:
  • “You don't know where it’s going to play out or how...But it was such a perfect scenario.” ([17:36])

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4. Work-Life Balance, Family, and Difficult Choices

[18:29 - 25:36]

• Leaving SNL: Gasteyer left after six years to start a family, noting no one had done it before (“No one had ever had a baby there. There are not a lot of roadmaps for how people do it”).
  • “80% of what you do with other working women once you have babies is run around wondering how to do it all.” ([20:06])
• Showbiz as a Grind: “It is a miserable grind of a job. I’ve missed out on some things...Like, weddings and bar mitzvahs and things that matter.” ([21:22])
• Gendered Expectations: Both Maryam and Ana confess not knowing how to assert their needs in high-pressure work spaces—like missing family milestones—or to “ask for permission” to prioritize personal life.
  • “I just didn’t know how to say I’m not available until next Monday because I have a personal family obligation.” ([22:21])

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5. The SNL Experience: Community, Pressure, and the “Female SNL Mafia”

[23:08 - 27:40]

• Not a “Hug Fest”: SNL was “not like a safe space…it was not a hug fest. Clearly there’s this sense of amazing talent but also sort of a zero sum game.” ([23:08])
• Creative Collaboration: Despite the stress, the collaborative, rapid-fire comedy writing at SNL provided a unique professional “high.”
  • “The shorthand is incredible…The flow that comedians get into when they’re writing collaboratively, together, is like no other high.” ([24:01])
• Female Solidarity Post-SNL:
  • “Now, post-SNL, there’s definitely a female support group.” ([25:53])
  • Beginning with a 40th anniversary gathering and Betty White’s hosting, female SNL alumni bonded over motherhood, life, and continued creative collaboration.
  • “We share an incredible work ethic and great sense of humor and perspective...There’s a lot of wisdom.” ([27:02])

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6. Reinventing, Making Things, and TV Success

[27:47 - 31:38]

• Refusing to Wait for Permission: Gasteyer stresses repeatedly, to both listeners and her own daughter, the importance of self-initiative:
  • “Who are you waiting for to tell you that you’re allowed to do this? You just have to go do it.” ([33:23])
• Mid-career Pivot to Broadway and TV: Turned away from typecast TV roles to pursue Broadway’s Wicked, then returned to TV in ensemble roles (Suburgatory, American Auto), which provided balance and joy.
  • “TV’s so easy after you’ve done theater for whatever, a million years. There’s so much free food.” ([29:22])
• Love for Ensemble and “The Collective”: Thrived in community-driven TV projects, echoing earlier themes of tribe, group creativity, and the joys of collective process.

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7. Advice on Rejection, Resilience, and Success

[31:52 - 38:43]

• Dealing with Rejection:
  • “I give myself one really sad night with a giant bottle of white wine and a half a Xanax, and I sleep really, really well, where I’m just petty and fucking small…and then the next day I wake up and I realize…I have other ideas and a really killer family and an amazing career.” ([00:00])
• Balance, Comparison, and Agency:
  • “Stop comparing yourself to other people. If I could go back and talk to myself at 25. It’s so fucking irrelevant what anyone else is doing.” ([35:49])
  • Cites Marty Short’s “pie” philosophy: “one third work, one third family, one third friends.”
  • Advocates for owning your identity and voice: “Your aspiration is your identity. It’s the thing that gets you out of bed every morning.” ([34:35])

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8. Accepting “Mess” and Trusting the Process

[38:43 - 41:54]

• Embracing Life’s Twists:
  • Serendipitous moments—like a canceled show granting her time to care for her aging parents, or launching a Christmas album on what became a “paid sabbatical”—are viewed as life balancing itself, even if not apparent in the moment.
  • “All those things happen…This notion of, like, it all happens for a reason, is actually kind of a nice way to look at it.” ([40:20])

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9. Rapid-Fire Fun

[42:35 - 45:02]

• Karaoke/Walk-on Song:
  • Ana: “I Am Woman, Hear Me Roar” by Helen Reddy
  • Maryam: “Girl on Fire” by Alicia Keys
• Potluck Dish: Watermelon feta salad (“very Iranian…also Greek Romanian, so that’s why I was an ethnic actress.”)
• Alternative Careers: Hospitality/food or teaching kids.
• Recommended Read: Girl on Girl—about women and media in the 90s and 2000s.
• One Piece of Advice: “Just order the first thing on the menu. You’re there to hang out with your friends.”
• Favorite SNL Messy Moment: “The entire thing is a mess…it’s utter mayhem. That’s kind of the magic.” ([44:38])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On auditions and self-worth:
  “The win was not whether I got the job. It was whether or not I did what I could have done.” —Ana ([13:34])

• On rejection and resilience:
  “I give myself one really sad night with a giant bottle of white wine and a half a Xanax…and then the next day I wake up and realize I have other ideas and a really killer family and an amazing career.” —Ana ([00:00], [36:50])

• On self-advocacy:
  “Who are you waiting for to tell you that you’re allowed to do this? You have to go do it.” —Ana ([33:23])

• On comparison:
  “Stop comparing yourself to other people…It’s so fucking irrelevant what anyone else is doing.” —Ana ([35:49])

• On balance:
  “Marty Short, famously, has this pie in his head: one third work, one third family, one third friends. All three have to be in balance.” —Ana ([00:00])

• On SNL’s chaos:
  “The entire thing is a mess…it’s utter mayhem. That’s kind of the magic.” —Ana ([44:38])

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• [00:00] – Ana’s rejection ritual & Marty Short’s “pie”
• [01:33] – Early life, college, and finding improv comedy
• [10:23] – How she got her SNL audition
• [13:34] – Ana’s self-assessment philosophy in auditions
• [16:28] – Pivot from SNL to Broadway (Wicked)
• [20:06] – Juggling SNL and motherhood; challenges of “doing it all”
• [23:08] – SNL as competitive, intense community
• [25:53] – Emergence and value of the SNL “female support group”
• [27:47] – TV and theater career pivots
• [31:52] – On making things, self-producing post-SNL
• [33:23] – Advice on self-advocacy and starting
• [35:49] – The toxicity of comparison; social media’s pressures
• [40:20] – “It all happens for a reason”
• [42:35] – Rapid-fire Q&A (fun, lightning round)

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Tone and Takeaways

The episode is candid, witty, and conspiratorially supportive—full of self-deprecation, vulnerability, and wry humor. Ana and Maryam swap stories of rejection, hustle, and balancing personal and professional demands, always returning to the importance of community, creative agency, and self-respect. Listeners are left with both practical tools (“leave it all on the table,” “don’t wait for permission”) and the comforting knowledge that even the most accomplished, charismatic figures have their messy parts—and that’s what makes the journey worthwhile.

Transcript

[A]

I give myself one really sad night with a giant bottle of white wine and a half a Xanax and I sleep really, really well, where I'm like, just petty and fucking small. And I look up who else's projects got picked up and I stomp my feet and whatever. And then the next day I wake up and I realize that I have other ideas and a really killer family and an amazing career that everybody wishes that they had. Lots of people wish that they had. And start over, Just do something different. Whatever it all this is the thing. It's so corny, but it does sort of all work out the way it's supposed to. And usually you don't know why. And again, I sound like I'm like a bumper sticker, but, you know, it's Marty short, like, famously has this pie that he keeps in his head, which is like one third work, one third family, one third friends, and that all three have to be in balance at all times.

[B]

Hi, I'm Mariam Banakaram, host of the Messy Parts podcast. Today we're going to have on Ana Gasteyer. Actress, singer, comedian. You know her from snl, but you also know her from her Broadway roles, from Elphaba and Wicked to the sitcom Suburgatory. Ana has incredible range. She is relentless and she's incredibly talented. She has many nuggets to impart, including don't compare yourself. And also, don't wait for permission. Just go for it. You're going to want to hear this conversation.

[A]

You know a lot.

[B]

Well, I now know even more.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

So we met after your SNL days.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You grew up playing the violin and sort of having this very classically trained.

[A]

Yeah, sorta. I mean, yes, I did. I played violin and I played and I was a classical singer. I grew up in a very kind of traditional music family, I guess would be the thing. They loved Broadway, though. Like, we listened to Broadway a lot. We listened to. We had a lot of, like, soundtracks and things like that as well, but we didn't like. It wasn't something that I thought I would do. Exactly.

[B]

I read that you chose Northwestern because they really wanted you to have a ba.

[A]

I chose Northwestern cause I was the only school I got into. I understand.

[B]

I got into bartered off the wait list. So, you know, we talk about that.

[A]

Yeah. Which really, really beefs up your gratitude, by the way, over the years.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah. So I wanted to go. What I really wanted to do was go to theater school. So I played violin and then I kind of bargained out. I was Good at violin, but it was a very. It's a very lone enterprise. Classical music. It's just hours and hours and hours by yourself. I knew pretty early on that I could sing and so I bargained out for voice lessons. And then.

I wanted to go to like. I really just wanted to go get a theater degree. I wanted to go.

[B]

Did you do theater and.

[A]

Yeah, I did tons and tons of theater. I was like the star of all the shows.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In middle school and high school and like did theater camps and did. I did programs and stuff. Not. I mean it wasn't like jazz hands or anything like that, but I liked it and I knew I was good at it. And so I wanted to do like Juilliard or North Carolina School for the Arts. But my parents were insistent that I get a BA And Northwestern had a five year program where you could get a music degree and a liberal arts degree.

That I applied for. But really I auditioned very well at that school. So that's how I got in.

[B]

And they wanted you to have a BA because they wanted you to have something to fall back on.

[A]

Yes, this is the way parents think.

[B]

Turns out they do think that way.

[A]

Yeah, they do. All of them, including me, by the way. And I have artistic children. We have children of our own.

[B]

We have children of our own and we think that way.

[A]

Well, actually, you want to know something? It's not even really about falling back on it, I will argue because I am a huge believer in the four year educational experience. I wish everybody could have it and I don't even care if they study the thing that they are going to be. I think we have way too much focus on kind of a rarefied, you know.

Ascent towards excellence and having to study one thing. It's really just for me, the things I really got out of college were exposure to all kinds of different points of view. I went to school in a different region than I grew up in. I grew. I met all different kind of kids that I knew. I mean, you know, again, the east coast bubble is really tiny. And I think the collective of like going to school in the Midwest, like I didn't even know that fraternities existed before I went to college. I thought it was like something from the 50s, but so that's why I went to Northwestern was like, I got into the voice department and I went for one year as a voice major. And I absolutely hated being a classical music student. I was bored out of my mind and a bad music student, I might add. They had theater or they had classical Music. And there were like showbiz kids, Midwestern kids, don't fuck around at all about musical theater. They all like, they're deep, really good. They all work at Six Flags over the summer, and really good tap dancers and all that kind of dinner theater. They all had their equity cards, so it was a little bit overwhelming that way. But I just got to dance around in a lot of that. And I ended up having a very bizarre, confusing resume building. I worked with Mary Zimmerman, the performance art level phenom of the theater, who was getting her PhD at Northwestern, and did all these incredible shows. And then I did. I did a ton of improv comedy. And I joined the improv comedy group there. Cause it was Chicago. It's like the birthplace of improv comedy. So I met the comedy people. I was like, this is the thing I'm gonna do. And I learned how to write.

[B]

Why did you know comedy was for you?

[A]

I didn't really. I just met those people. I knew I didn't. Everyone I went to high school with was funny. So I didn't really think that I had a unique talent. But when I auditioned for the improv show, which I just auditioned for, because everybody did, like, all the fun theater people were auditioning. So I auditioned and I knew. I suddenly realized, oh, I think I'm pretty good at this. And these people are like, tribally, my people.

[B]

What does that mean? What does your people mean?

[A]

It's hard to explain. It's just like a weird mutant second skin. When you meet people that think like you, you know, you're just like. I had no idea that this was something that I had in common with other people. The way their brains work, what they think is funny, the way they want to write, what they want to do. It's just that moment that you find. And again, by the way, I don't even think you have one set of people. I have lots of them. I also have musical theater people that I also feel the same way about now that I do so many Broadway shows. Like, I just think there's different. You have a kinship with a certain.

Kind of person, a person who thinks the way you do, the person that finds things funny, that makes things up. And I will say the sort of unifying principle of those people that I met at Northwestern. And by the way, you know, some of them weren't even in the improv scene. Now that I think about it, they were makers. They were all makers and doers. They were all motivated to not sit around waiting to get cast in something they Were very. And that's been like, the guiding principle of my entire career.

[B]

And then. Were they all funny?

[A]

Very, very funny. And learning early on, it was. You know, we went to college at the same time, so it was the late 80s. It was like I wasn't gonna be cast at that point. I was. We have a joke, like, in my family, I was ethnic in the 80s. Like, I. Cause I had curly hair. You know, I just. I didn't look like, you know, the traditional. Yeah. I mean, if you wore a brunette, you look like Demi Moore. But otherwise it was like Courtney Thorne Smith. You know, that was sort of the option. So.

[B]

Yes, we were the 90210.

[A]

Yeah. Beverly Hills, whatever that was. Yeah. I just didn't fit any of those little boxes, so I just started writing for myself. And that's what that group predominantly did.

[B]

Did that make you feel like an outsider?

[A]

I mean, I always have been an outsider, even growing up the way that I did. Like, characterizing it as, like, oh, I went to Sidwell, this little bubble. I lived in the wrong neighborhood. I lived near the Capitol in D.C. which in the 70s and 80s was like a very kind of. It was gentrifying, but it was pretty.

Rough around the edges in some parts of it. And we didn't have the subway. There wasn't subway access. I took the bus an hour and a half to school. So I definitely. My dad. We were not nearly as wealthy as the people that I went to school with. I mean, I figured out later I was like, oh, well, my parents could still send me to private school. I mean, it was a different time in the 70s, and you could maybe do that. But I was definitely an outsider. I was. I was. And I went to a public school, public elementary school. There were seven white kids in the whole elementary school. So I was an outsider in elementary school. And then I was sort of an outsider in the fancy uptown school. And then I was an outsider as an east coaster at a Midwest setting. And I was an outsider as a comedian and musical theater. And I was an outsider. You know, I've always. I mean, I don't. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it. I think it actually just means you have a different and more interesting perspective.

[B]

I actually think it fuels you.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it. I think it makes it irrelevant in a weird way. You're just like, okay, well, these are my sets of circumstances. And the more I meet people, the more I realize. I mean, it's crazy. You know, you meet. Everybody has that from a Different angle, no matter where they are.

[B]

Okay, so you're there, you find your people. I kind of love that. And then you move to la.

[A]

I just, like, fell around California for two years. I went up to San Francisco for part of that and then moved back down. And then I just started, as many people do, around 24. I just started to buckle down. And that's when I started classes at the Groundlings. And I got cast in a tour show. I got cast in the first it's so Funny. Jeffrey Sellers, the big Broadway producer, produced Hamilton. It was his first show that he produced. We would do staged productions, like exact episodes of the Brady Bunch. It was called the Real Life Brady Bunch and it toured across the country. It was like this huge success.

We played, like every college across the entire country. It was incredible.

[B]

Oh, my nose. Marsha Brady.

[A]

Yeah, that was one of them. Oh, my nose. And.

Jan. Jan. I can't remember all of them now, but anyway, yeah, so when I first.

[B]

Moved to the States, I watched a lot of Brady Buns.

[A]

So did I. I found it so comforting. And again, I'd never been to California, so I didn't know anyone who had a house like that. I actually think about it all the time. I think about how our generation had all of these kind of touch points that made a ton of things seem common knowledge.

[B]

Because there was only three channels.

[A]

There were only three channels, exactly.

[B]

So you do the Groundlings. How long do you do that for?

[A]

I did that for two stints and then I got put into the main company and then I got snl, like, almost immediately.

[B]

I mean. Okay, I'm sorry. So let's go back to that. What do you mean? Like, you make that sound so easy.

[A]

It wasn't easy, but it was how it went.

[B]

Did they find you? Did you have to audition?

[A]

Yeah. So the way that that went down is that, frankly, Will Ferrell was. So in 95, they did a total cast rehaul and turnover. I don't know if you remember that, but SNL was like Saturday Night Dead and all that crap. As it does, it cycles in and out of favorability, and it was definitely at its low point. So they did sort of a complete overhaul in 95, and then they sort of did a couple of tweaks in 96 where they added. They just did a. They just held auditions for. They wanted maybe a black guy and maybe another woman. They weren't. You know, they were just kind of like, how could we even out this cast? And so Will Ferrell. Actually, I didn't Know him very well, but I'd done like a few, like, improv sets with him and stuff at the Groundlings. And he just. We liked one another and he suggested like four or five of us that were in the company at the time. And so we sent tapes in and they flew me. It's really crazy. I think. I'm not 100% sure of this because I was in such a blackout for the cause. They flew us. You know, you fly back to. It was weird. We were tested in 8H. I was in LA at the time.

[B]

Studio 8H, in 30 rackets.

[A]

Yeah. So it's really odd because if you live in la, you're used to, like driving, parking at a movie studio, like going in, doing your audition, leaving. Like, I kind of had that system down. But then to go into, you know, you know. Do you remember, like, when you first got to New York? I mean, even coming here as a kid, I had an aunt here growing up. It wasn't like my first time in New York, but it may as well have been because that sort of. Sometimes I'm so sad that I don't feel this way anymore. Like just the intensity of the vertical experience where you're like looking up and the beehive of life. And they put everybody those days who came in for SNL at the Paramount Hotel. Oh, yeah. Which was like the most 90s.

In the elevators. Like super dark. It was like a disco hotel. Yeah. Just terrible. And the rooms were super, super dark.

[B]

So small. They were also really small.

[A]

Postage stamp, like. Yeah. New York City at its best. So I auditioned and.

The big thing. Yeah, it was totally mind blowing. I mean, it was.

[B]

I don't know what an audition looks like. What is that? Like, you show up and they give you.

[A]

An SNL audition is a really different audition than an audition. Usually an audition, you're just going in and you know the words and you've learned the. But for an SNL audition, you know, they've done a lot of documentaries and stuff on it, especially this year because of the 50th. But it's like a little one person show. Like, you basically, you have to write it yourself. I did.

[B]

Yeah, you did.

[A]

Yeah. But I did like my. You know, I had characters and stuff that I did at snl. So, I mean, at the ground, like. So I kind of like worked it. You. You put together like a little one person show. It's like five minutes. They give you some rough guidelines. You know, I imagine it changes every now and again, but it's pretty consistent and you just.

[B]

Are you terrified?

[A]

Yes, terrified. Terrified.

[B]

And when it ended, did you think you got the gig?

[A]

No.

This has only happened a few times in my life. I can't always pull this out. I wish that I could live by this philosophy, but this is the philosophy to live by.

[B]

I'm ready for it.

[A]

Yeah, you kind of live this way, so you probably don't need this pep talk. But I do tell young performers all the time, there have been a few auditions in my life where I've left everything on the table, where the win was not whether I got the job. It was whether or not I did what I could have done. And most of the time that I've done that I've gotten the job, coincidentally. But so I knew that I had not. I knew that I did not want to leave anything to chance, that I didn't want to walk out and say, like, I wish I'd prepared more, or I wish, you know, whatever. And I knew that Will somehow got word to me. They famously don't laugh in SNL auditions. It's kind of a dick move. But they totally.

[B]

Because the energy of the audience would actually help.

[A]

Well, and also, like, if you're a comedian, you're. The actual cadence of. The rhythm of it in your head is a really specific way if it's material that you're accustomed to. But partially, I think it's like some kind of litmus test that they established years and years ago. But also, it was like, three guys. You know, it was just a whole different. When I look back at myself, I'm like, I can't even believe I did that. But.

Charlie, who, you know, my husband, we knew about this, so he would.

[B]

Were you dating at the time?

[A]

We were engaged. That was actually the bigger drama.

[B]

Charlie, who you went to high school with.

[A]

Yes, but we didn't start going out in high school until later. We were engaged. So the bigger drama was SNL came knocking, and I was like, you know, in the last six weeks before my wedding, so I was in like, a real. Like, oh, my God, what am I gonna do if I get this? And, you know, are my WASPy in laws gonna kill me if I have to pull out of the wedding day? And, you know, just all that stuff. Cause I didn't know, like, if the. If the timing was gonna work out or anything. It did it all. But anyway, he just sat and pretended. He just sat like Mount Rushmore and stared at me while you practiced. And I just would run my audition, like, relentlessly without reaction. So I knew what it sounded like without reaction, over and over and over again so that I was comfortable.

Doing it, like.

With nothing.

[B]

So you put it all on the table and you leave and you're not sure.

[A]

I confess that I don't really remember the timeline. Then I waited forever. Then. That's the part I don't really remember. But I will say this. I left the audition. I knew that I'd done everything I could, and that was all I needed to do. Somebody was on the elevator, and they're like, hey, I just saw your audition. That was great. And I don't know, I just knew that it was good. I knew that I hadn't.

Just, by my standards, chunked anything. Like, I knew that I'd. Like, everything had seemed to work. And I think I got, like, a couple chuckles. Like, I just. Like, I just let it go. Like, I. Yeah, I let it go. Okay. And so this is why I say it's like a teachable moment. Because, like, for example, with Wicked, I did the same thing, which was another major milestone career moment for me, because after I left snl, I was determined to work on Broadway, which is easier said than done.

[B]

And we have to unpack that, because it's not a natural transition from.

[A]

No, not at all. And every. All of them are worlds that are very hard to break into and require.

[B]

Yeah, you're like, oh, I'm amazing at comedy.

[A]

Guess what?

[B]

I'm going to go do a video. Very difficult, you know, vocal thing on Broadway. You know, the third Alphabet.

[A]

I think it's actually harder in some ways because people get very. It's really hard to work on Broadway, and they work their asses off and make $5 and understandably are very annoyed when television people show up and want to do it, too.

[B]

Especially comedians.

[A]

Especially comedians. I don't know. But, I mean, it turned out fine. But it was. It was. I knew that I had, like, again, it's an impossible role.

And I had to sing as well as I possibly could. And when I did that one.

I did not get cast. It was to replace Idina Menzel.

[B]

So you auditioned to be the second Elphaba?

[A]

So, yes, famously, they called me in to be for the final workshop with Adina and this girl, Julia Murney. Everybody ended up being an Elphaba down the line. But it was my last season of snl and I was pregnant with Frances, and so I didn't go. And then.

They brought me in when Adina was leaving, and I made that final callback. And then, like, two months later, they called and they're like, hey, we're going to start a Chicago company. We want you to start the Chicago company. So again, like, you don't always. This is the part of my little like, pep talk. Like, you don't know where it's going to play out or how. But it was such a perfect scenario because, number one, because it was an original company, we had like a full.

Rehearsal process. We had, you know, the original director, we had the original choreographer. Like everything kind of existed in a very. Wasn't just like getting plugged into a Broadway show, which is usually how it happens. And you have two weeks and you're just like vomited into the existing show, which is a nightmare.

[B]

But I want to go back because what you're describing, which, you know, amazing, you've had incredible success. I got to come to Chicago and actually see you perform as Elphaba, which was incredible.

But there are all these moments that are actually quite difficult along this journey. You're getting married and you're having this incredible career defining moment. Right then you're pregnant. You're like on the last season of snl. I mean, these are difficult things to juggle.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

And you've picked a career where, I mean, arguably difficult to manage all those things because you're sort of at the mercy of the show.

[A]

Yeah, I would not have. I mean, I certainly didn't know that at the time I picked it. Do you know? Yeah, I mean, I would. Yeah, it's really itinerant performing for a living. It's not for the faint of heart. Did you.

[B]

What made you decide to leave snl?

[A]

I was done. I'd run, you know, I'd run its course. It was six years. I, Charlie, my husband, got his MBA in the middle. He was. We were ready to start a family. I was 35 at the time. Those contracts were five year contracts and I'd stayed an extra year. And I think I was just like, yeah, this is a good number. I've produced a lot of material. You know, this show is tumultuous and has its ups and downs and it's exhausting emotionally at times. And I was like, I don't wanna have a baby and sort of be buffeted around the sea of work anxiety. No one had ever had a baby there. And there are not a lot of roadmaps for how people do it. And let's be completely frank, like, no one makes it easy. Even now. There's no, there's no childcare. There's no, like, you, you and I, among Our many, you know, shared experiences, like the. Feel like 80% of what you do with other working women once you have babies is like run around wondering how to do it all, you know, I.

[B]

Say that, you know, I rely on strangers, like, oh, my God, you're going to pick up my child.

[A]

I don't know. You okay?

[B]

Take care.

[A]

Totally. Or like, you know, just the panicky, like, just throw money at. Just throw money at it. You know, just the amount of, like. I wish it were easier for people. I wish that there was a system in place that would help not. Not penalize people.

[B]

There is no such thing as fat and there's no such thing as balance.

[A]

I wish that I felt that there's no such thing as balance. That's true. Yeah. And that. And that's where I speak very, you know, again, when I speak to students. And I. I never want to be like an old.

[B]

Like, you don't want to go into.

[A]

Show business, you know? Cause I. I hate those people. I. I hate show business is so fun. I love it. I love the people. Like I said, it started with this idea of tribe. Like, doing a Broadway show is like, my children say, like, you are so happy when you were doing this. You're nicer. And even though I'm like exhausted, you.

[B]

Know, and you get a family every show. You get a family.

[A]

You get a family. You get your sort of yayas. You get to sing every day, which literally, statistically is shown to make people are happier who sing every day. And I think there is a thing, if you are born with the ability to sing and you have musicianship in your. Whatever God given or whatever you want to call it, doing it with other people who also have that. There's just an incredible sort of vibrational kinship that happens that's really exciting to people. But.

But it is a. It's a grind. It is a miserable grind of a job. I've missed out on some things, you know, and I've missed some.

[B]

Like, I didn't have family close by who could just come take care of my children. It would have been nice.

[A]

And I've missed, like, weddings and bar mitzvahs and things that matter. I mean, my best friend from elementary school, like, childhood, practically. My sister grew up next door. I missed. She's divorced. She doesn't. You know, I'm still sad I missed her wedding. Oh, no.

[B]

I hated those moments.

[A]

I'm like, I can't believe I wasn't there. You know, it's crazy. And it was to make like a commercial Parody for Fake Gatorade for Saturday Night Live. You know what you do? I remember, but I didn't know how to ask. Also, I didn't know how to say, like, this is a really important thing. And I feel like. I think. I do think this was gendered. I do think that I had to say, like, well, I mean, I guess it's all SNL people, but, you know, the sense of, like, opportunity there. Like, I just didn't know how to say I'm not available until next Monday because I have a personal family obligation. I just didn't have a job.

[B]

It's funny, I didn't know how to say that either. I remember I was getting an award, and I actually got a job at NBC. And so I had to accept the award, like, a month into the job, and my boss wanted me in Chicago for something, and I said to the awardees, I'm sorry, can somebody else come and accept the award on my behalf? I mean, now looking back, I'm so mortified I did that, but I didn't feel like I had.

[A]

I know. I get it.

[B]

Permission to say a month in, like, you know what? I can't come to Chicago that day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But. Okay, I want to go back for one second. So you're on the show for six years. You clearly care about Tribe and Community. I actually know this about you just because you're that person. And I remember reading that you said working on snl, it was not like, a safe space. Right. It wasn't like a hug fest.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You were like, clearly there's this sense of, like, amazing talent, but also sort of a zero sum game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What kept you there for so long? And was that hard?

[A]

Uh.

Well, I don't even know how to answer that. It's like, it wouldn't have. There's nothing comparable. It's like.

At the time, it was. It was very hard.

Definitely, weirdly, like, comparable Community now. I mean, people have survived it. That's the interesting thing. When you come to the other side of it, you're like, could work with any one of those people and fast. That's the other thing. The shorthand is incredible. Dratch and I are writing a musical right now. Just, like, the speed with which we.

[B]

Well, you sort of lived through fire together with Rachel in some ways.

[A]

But all SNL people also have, like. It's back to that brain thing. Like, there's a way that we can, like, solve a problem quickly. Like the flow that people that comedians get into when they're writing collaboratively. Together is like no other high that I probably have in my life.

That is a thrilling.

Deeply addictive proposition and just beyond fun.

[B]

So fun.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, so, yes, it is miserable and it's hard and it's a time pressure and it's in the public eye and everybody's got a comment on how different you look when they meet you in real life. And, you know, all that stuff. I didn't enjoy that part of it. I don't really love the fame part of things. It's not very fun for me. But the creative part was incredibly intoxicating. I mean, always there's the hardest I've laughed. I mean, even just doing the 50th again, and you always think, oh, did I make that up? And nope, there's just this, like, there's a secondhand, deep, profound joy. And leaving it is always hard, you know, and I left. There's times I wish that I'd stayed. I mean, when I see, like, how long Maya was able to stay with Maya Rudolph was able to stay after she had babies and how that worked for her, and she worked that for herself really well. But again, I'm not a person who can even ask a day off for a wedding, so how would I possibly have. I just know about myself that I wouldn't have been good at that, you know, especially because I was the first one. And I. I felt like all eyes were on how I was going to pull it off. And so at that point, I was just like, I think I'm going to step out. I've gotten what I need out of this and figure out the rest. But it was a little lonely, you know, to do that.

[B]

A hundred percent.

[A]

I didn't really, like, know any other moms like me as a result, with my first.

[B]

So that's being the first means.

[A]

Yeah, it was a little lonely, it.

[B]

Seems, and I don't know, you can correct me that now. Post snl, there's definitely, like, a female support group that you guys have formed.

[A]

Definitely, yeah.

[B]

How did that happen?

[A]

At the 40th is when it started, so about 10 years ago.

And actually, really there were, like, it sort of followed history because there was Betty White hosted, and a bunch of us came back for the Mother's Day episode, which was Betty White. She was the oldest host at the time. And it was just really nice. Like, we were reconnecting as almost all of us were mothers at that point. I think Rachel was pregnant with Eli and.

Just kind of a different perspective. Not just, you know, hotshot, late night Comedy girls, but people with more dimensional approaches to life and womanhood and whatever. And so.

Yeah, we just started spending time together, and then we started having these dinners and reunions and then these milestone birthdays that we celebrate together. And so.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

Yeah, it's really nice. It's really nice to have, like I said earlier, I mean, just collaboratively, too. We help each other out a lot. There's not that many of us on the planet. It's a very weird thing to have gone through.

As a human being and then add to that as a, you know, throw gender into that. You know, we were. We were greatly outnumbered. And I think it's just. And we're all super. We share an incredible work ethic and great sense of humor and perspective. So it's. Yeah, there's a lot of wisdom, I think, that we share with one another.

[B]

And now projects.

[A]

Not to be all, like, corny about it. Yeah, some projects. And all of us collaborate. Like, if you're. You know, we're all called upon to host and, you know, we all do. You get sort of. We share a certain present at a thing, and, hey, I need jokes for this. And does this work? And, you know, I love that. Yeah, it's nice. It's really nice.

[B]

Okay, so you leave and you. Did you know you were gonna try Wicked? I mean, did you know as you were transitioning out. Cause you begun to do. I did.

[A]

I did. I knew. So at the time, again, remember, I left Saturday Night Live in 2002, which.

Seems late, but really was historically not. Still not. It was pre 30 rock. It was pre Parks and Rec again. I was auditioning early on to be, like, Adam Carolla's wife in Adam Carolla's sitcom. And I was like, you know what? I don't want to be Adam Carolla's wife on Adam Carolla's sitcom.

And my manager was a big comedy manager at the time, and he was like, you're not gonna work in film. Women don't work in film. There's no comedy parts for women in film. And he wasn't wrong. I mean, it was like Seth Roge, you know, bro. The beginning of the bromance explosion. That's still happening. And there just weren't, like, a lot of looks around. And so I went in one week to see Wonderful Town and Wicked, actually, and they were on Broadway, and I can sing. And I was like, oh, well, obviously I can work on Broadway and I can stay in New York and crack my.

[B]

It's an amazing transition. Cause you know, once you get locked into people seeing you one way, getting them to see you a different way is not so easy.

[A]

Yeah. And it wasn't like I did, like, comedy roles. I went right into, like, Elphaba, which was kind of weird, but. Yeah. So I did five Broadway shows and a bunch of those kind of things. And then.

Then I started working on television again, so.

[B]

So Suburgatory. Right. And so you started actually, like, working regularly, not just like, you know, coming on one episode.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What was that like?

[A]

Well, those are the sweet jobs. I had a couple of series in a row where I was like, part of a big cast, working a few days a week where you're not the lead and you can. One was in Toronto. It was so easy. I could be home every weekend. Then one was Suburgatory was in la, but it was fine. I worked whatever, two, three days a week at the most, and not every week. So that was great. It was just easy for me. That was. TV's so easy after you've done theater for whatever, a million years. Like, there's so much free food. There's literally, like, they pay for lunch, you know, have services, literally. And I. Yeah, I like the. I like working. I really like doing ensemble television. It's really fun.

[B]

It comes back to the collective.

[A]

Yeah. I like being a part of a community. I love. Yeah, for sure. There's just something really goofy and fun and easy about it, and it's kind of that SNL thing. I love the read through table. I love. I love comedy writers. You know, all of that. There's not that there's not enough of it happening. I hope that the heyday is not completely over, but it feels.

[B]

We all hope the heyday's done.

[A]

Yeah, I know, I know.

[B]

I don't think stories will go away.

[A]

No, I hope not.

[B]

No, I don't think so. I mean, they've lasted this long.

[A]

I feel like comedies, though, are on. I'm like, where are the comedies? Where's the.

[B]

We could all use more.

[A]

We could use a little more, like I Love Lucy. I just want, like, big dumb comedies, you know, with wigs.

[B]

Yes. And less stress.

[A]

I'd like less stress.

[B]

I find myself not being able to watch stressful shows.

[A]

No, I know. Same.

[B]

So that's why I'd like some comedies.

[A]

Yeah, that's actually why I love hacks.

[B]

I'm like, just make.

[A]

Oh, my God, the best.

[B]

Love hacks.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

I think the other thing that really strikes me is that you have incredible range.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you do a jazz Record, I mean you're willing to just completely go left, right, center. What is it about you that does that?

[A]

I like making things. I like you do too. I mean, look where we are. But you know, I don't, I'm not very good at sitting around and I love the feeling. And for all of Saturday night live for 20 years, I was producing and writing, but I wasn't getting credited for that. And that's one regret. If I could go back again. Trailblazing loneliness stupidly, I should have worked harder to produce shows off the gate, but I didn't. But that's all I've really been doing. I mean my records, my one woman shows. Cause I tour with the Christmas records and again, singing is.

[B]

I've loved seeing you at Joe's Publishing.

[A]

It's really fun. Yeah. And having a Christmas album means that you. Or holiday album, it means that you, you have sort of a thing you do every holiday. And we have like regulars now and we always sell out, you know, within the first couple of days. It's really fun.

[B]

So because we are both women who've juggled. What is that like, like, what advice would you have for young women who are coming up? I mean, not, not, not the kind of advice that says don't do this because guess what? If you love what you do, you're going to go do it. What useful tips should we give them?

[A]

I mean, I think your first thing you said is the right. Is not, not do it. Because what's gonna feed you? And if you're not gonna have time enough in your day to have, you're gonna be busy no matter what you do. So you may as well have it be something that you love. Right. So that when you do come home for your 15 minutes with your children, they say you're a lot nicer when you're doing musical theater.

[B]

I definitely, I'm nicer when I come home. If I have a job I like.

[A]

That's exactly right. So.

Find something about it, you know, it doesn't have to be whatever those years ago I did that, Myers Briggs or whatever, you know, to try to determine what kind of jobs. And again, what does that mean? Do you like having a community? Do you like working remotely? Do you get your energy from other people? Do you get your energy, you know, from ideating by yourself? Like those are good things to know about yourself. I think out of the gate.

[B]

You know, one thing I've noticed because I was just on a panel and a woman came up to me and said she wanted to Be more of a writer. Not theater writer, you know, film writer. She just wanted to write more, and she wanted to know how to transition into a writing job. And I was like, why don't you just start a substack? I mean, I just think there's so many more opportunities for this generation. Like, in our era, you had to get into sitcom, you had to get into shows. Right now people get famous from doing tiktoks or substacks.

[A]

Don't you have to tell yourself, though? I mean, we both have daughters, right? We both have daughters with ambitions. And I. I. Probably the thing I carpet her the most is like, who are you waiting for to tell you that you're allowed to do this? You have to go do it. You just. There's no.

[B]

And does she.

[A]

I think every. I think she's getting there. I think I had to. There was a day at which I had to say to someone at a party, and these are all, like, the tricks, right? I mean, acting is the funniest thing, because most of the time you're not doing it. It's what you want to do. So when someone at a party says, what do you do for a living? So quick for you to be like, I'm a temp, you know, or whatever the thing is. But actually, just stating the truth.

I'm an actress. You know, I want to work as an actress. I'm developing a show for myself right now. When I learned that trick, when people were like, what are you working on right now? Cause that's all anyone ever asks a performer. And you're like, well, I'm writing this, and I have this idea, and I have this. You actually have all of that agency. And when you can kind of state it to somebody, you know, I love. You know, I love running. I train for marathons. It's probably my happy thing that I do, or whatever the thing is, you.

[B]

Know, so it's about believing yourself and also being willing to say it out loud with confidence. Right?

[A]

Yeah. You have to be the first advocate, the very first one, not waiting for someone outside you to tell you what you're good at or what you are allowed to do. It's really like the thing your aspiration is, your identity. It's the thing that you want to be that gets you out of bed every morning. Yeah.

[B]

But I'm willing to embarrass myself, like, okay, I'm going to do a podcast. And if it doesn't work out like it does, I mean, it doesn't mean I'm not terrified or that I have no fear. Right. But I'm willing to go for it and put myself out there. I mean, I was not a cool kid and I seem to not have been too worried about that.

[A]

That's a great one.

[B]

Yeah, but, I mean, it was a lucky accident.

[A]

Yeah, but it's a lucky accident to know that it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, who cares? Literally, who cares?

[B]

But that's a hard thing to impart to somebody.

[A]

Absolutely, it is. But that's where you have to, like, whatever, play the tape. How bad did it go? You know, I have done some really embarrassing bad jobs. Humiliating. I have been really badly excoriated online.

I will say this. This is another one I've been thinking about, because I just had my birthday and I don't know, I was just getting pensive, and it's really hard in the world of the Internet and Instagram and everything else. Stop comparing yourself to other people.

[B]

Oh, my God, that's a tough one.

[A]

If I could go back and talk to myself at 25. It's so fucking irrelevant what anyone else is doing. It has nothing to do with my path. Nothing. But it's so easy to look this way and look this way, and it's especially in acting. You're like, there's literally nothing that you could control except for what you can do yourself, how well you prepared for that audition, how hard you tried, how hard you, you know, put your hat into the ring. I mean, you know, I've just had a couple of, like, two of my most favorite things I've ever pitched. I've just pitched. And I thought, oh, my God, these are definitely going to sell. And they didn't sell. And, like, the speed with which. Because the market sucks right now and whatever. Like. And I couldn't have predicted that. I mean, I've had an incredible year. I was like, all over the 50th, I thought, you know, literally, the people who called me and were like, we have to be in business with you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wicked's 20th all of it and still my. But nope, it's. The market sucks. Like, people aren't buying things. What can you do? Like, it doesn't mean I'm a bad person or the idea is a bad.

[B]

Person, but when you have that rejection, how do you pick yourself back up?

[A]

I give myself one really sad night with a giant bottle of white wine and a half a Xanax, and I sleep really, really well, where I'm, like, just petty and fucking small, and I look up, who else's projects got, you know, picked up, and I stomp my feet and whatever, and then the next day I wake up and I realize that I have other ideas and a really killer family and an amazing career that everybody wishes that they had. Lots of people wish that they had. And start over. Just do something different, whatever. This is the thing. It's so corny, but it does sort of all work out the way it's supposed to, and usually you don't know why. And again, I sound like I'm like a bumper sticker, but, you know, it's. Marty Short famously has this pie that he keeps in his head, which is, like, one third work, one third family, one third friends, and that all three have to be in balance at all times. He can start to sense it. So I was on a great series for NBC I was super proud of called American Auto. I finally was number one on the call sheet. I thought it was really well written. I was not embarrassed by it, which is the first mark. And then I was actually proud of it, and I thought it was really good, and I thought it was saying something and comedically, really strong. It was during COVID the strike happened. There were just too many things for any comedy to endure. And we got canceled. And I thought, oh, my God. I was, like, super bummed, you know, for two, three days. And then my mom got sick, and I had to move my parents out. And I had four solid months of moving my parents out of their place in Albuquerque to, like, a community where they now live. And I helped them do that. And I was. And it never would have happened if my television show had gone. Had gone. I mean, I was like. I went, you know, to, like, arrange caregivers and stuff, and then, like, ended up staying for five weeks and helping them downsize. And I'll never get that. It was an incredible thing to be there for my parents and to be connected to them in their 80s, you.

[B]

Know, so it's because we're the sandwich generation, because I had a similar thing, and I had to move my mom, and I was like, if I was at my regular job, there's just no way I would be able to come to all these appointments with her.

[A]

Well, think about it. Exactly.

[B]

I mean, because there's a lot of them.

[A]

There are a lot of them, and you. And. And. And they're like. They're scared, and they're overwhelmed by the system, and, you know, you want to be available to them, so. And you would want someone. You want your kids to do that for you. Like, I loved that I could model that for my kids. Like, that they, you know, saw me being engaged with my parents in a. In a different way and all that. I got closer to my brother. I mean, so many amazing things happen as a result of it.

[B]

You know, sometimes those moments, I mean, when I left Hyatt, I remember taking time off, and one of the things I will never get back is that I got to spend the summer with my grandmother in California. And when would I ever get that back? But, I mean, by the way, it was terrifying. There were moments people called me and told me I was crazy to take time off.

[A]

Right.

[B]

All those things are true, but you sort of find your way.

[A]

And again, I'm lucky. Like, I'm not. That's, you know, whatever. I'm at a point in my career where I don't have to be panicky about the job, paying the bills and things like that. It's much more like a creative sense of failure, which is a different kind of a sense of failure than, like.

[B]

What does that mean?

[A]

Meaning, like, if something isn't working out, it's not like I'm panicking because I have my mortgage to pay. You know, that's a different kind of anxiety, I realize.

[B]

Which I've had, too, so.

[A]

Which I've also had. Yeah, too. But that's why I say, like, there's things to be grateful for. And, you know, look, my son is going into his senior year, and again, if my two projects had gone, I probably wouldn't have been able to be available for this process. And, you know, so all those things happen.

[B]

So this notion of, like, it all happens for a reason, it's actually kind of a nice way to look at it.

[A]

It is. I mean, I know people roll their eyes, but.

[B]

I know I roll my eyes, but I sort of find comfort in it as well.

[A]

I think the other way of looking at it is you're not just one thing. Like, as much as we say, oh, it's so hard to juggle. Well, so this thing isn't taking the priority that it thought it was, which means you have the energy and the focus now to put other things.

[B]

To.

[A]

To give your attention to something meaningful in your life, like your marriage or your mom, you know, like, think your children, things that yourself. I don't know, go write your novel. You know, your novel. And I often feel that it happens. You know, I. I turn around and I'm like, you know what I think I'm gonna do? I think I'm gonna start a Christmas album. I Mean, that's actually the perfect example. I should go back to this. So I was on this show that filmed up in Toronto. It was on tbs, which was having a little bit of a comedy heyday, and it was really fun. And it was like, I've been in so many series now that have gone to season three, and something's happened. And in the old days, you'd be like, if it goes to season three, you're gonna, like, be shitting in silk, you know, as my husband likes to say, like, it's gonna, like, you're gonna have your series for 16 years, you know, in your brain. So this show went to season three, and they convened the entire writer's room. They wrote the entire season. We were two weeks into pre production. I was getting ready to go to Toronto, like, where am I gonna stay? And our series was canceled.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Two weeks before we began. But because we'd already. The clock had already begun to run, we got paid. So they did the math and they were like, it'll save us enough money just to cancel the series and pay everybody off for their, whatever, 13 episodes of television than it will be to actually go make the epis. I was so bummed. And then I looked right at the paid sabbatical. Literally. I was like, well, I have money. I have time to get other jobs, so I'm gonna go make a Christmas record. And my very supportive husband was like, I always wanted to make a holiday record. I wanted to produce it myself. And I was like, can we earmark half of this and go make a record? And he was like, yeah, absolutely. You're gonna get jobs anyway, so go do it. So that's what we did. That's what I did.

[B]

So I'm gonna go to Rapid Fire questions.

[A]

Great. I love it.

[B]

Okay, hold on. I need my glasses because that's where I'm at.

[A]

Cheaters. Okay, this would be fun.

[B]

Karaoke or Walk on song. Which would you pick? And what's the song?

[A]

Oh, God.

I always. I hate karaoke because I'm a real singer, so I.

[B]

Okay. Walk on song.

[A]

I am woman, hear me roar.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[A]

By Helen Reddy.

[B]

Mine is Girl on Fire, so. Okay.

That made you laugh.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They actually used it once, and I thought it was fitting.

[A]

It's up in the club by 50 cent. I don't know. I don't have one.

[B]

Okay, What's a food you'd bring to a potluck?

[A]

I always bring the same thing to a potluck. I always bring that watermelon feta Salad that's very Iranian. You know, I love Iranian food. And also my grandmother, my grandparents were Greek and Romanian and basically that's a Greek Romanian salad too.

[B]

That's why you were an ethnic actress.

[A]

That's why I was an ethnic actress.

[B]

An alternative career that you would have chosen if it wasn't. And entertainment.

[A]

I love food, so I probably would have worked in hospitality or food somehow. I would have worked with kids. I love kids and I might have been. I might have wanted to work in. I probably would have worked with kids. I probably would have taught.

[B]

Okay, what are you reading, listening or watching? And you can just pick.

[A]

I'm reading Girl on Girl. It's a very enraging assessment of how our generation was taught to hate other women. But it's culturally very interesting about the 90s and 2000s media and sort of the birth of. I've only read two chapters, but it is really satisfying.

Basically how porn kind of infiltrated the mainstream in early chapters. She's like, how do we go from Riot Girls to Spice Girls in a five year period? And sort of what the conversation about women and women in the media was. That's really good.

[B]

Okay, one piece of advice.

[A]

Just order the first thing on the menu. You're there to hang out with your friends.

[B]

Oh, that's a good one. What about snl? Do you have one favorite messy moment?

[A]

I mean, the entire thing is a mess. It's insane. It's absolutely. It has its own algorithm, its own.

You know, chaos theory. It's just mayhem. It's utter mayhem.

[B]

Kind of like the magic of it is the mayhem. Do you think that's true?

[A]

It does happen. I don't know how. I don't know how they do it. I don't know how that many people do it. And don't. I can't believe nobody's like injured or. Yeah, that was fun.

[B]

Well, thank you so much. Honestly, that was amazing.

[A]

Yay.