← The Messy Parts
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
If I think back to Covid, you were at a job that got very busy. Do you think that it was just you responding to that moment, or do you think it was sort of like you were always meant to be that person and the calling showed up?
- [00:13]
Sally Sussman
Such a good question and a little bit of both, or maybe all of the above. I had purpose. I mean, I had a reason. I was lit up with this feeling that I was, you know, saving lives. And part of it was the roll of the dice that I happened to work at the place that was going to possibly make the difference. But the other piece of it, and I think it's something important for your listeners, is be ready, because you don't know when it's coming for you.
- [00:50]
Podcast Host
Today on the messy parts we're having on Sally Sussman. Sally. Sally Sussman has had a storied career in corporate communications. Most recently, she was the head of corporate communications at Pfizer, but before that, she was at Estee Lauder and Amex. And she started off in the public sector working in government. When she was in her 20s, she came out and her dad said, you're never gonna have a spouse, a child, or a career. Sally has turned every. You can't until. Watch me. We're gonna not just talk about her career, but we're also gonna talk about her reinvention as she now goes into a new chapter. Well, Sally, I'm so excited to have you on the blue couch.
- [01:27]
Sally Sussman
I have a blue couch at home.
- [01:28]
Podcast Host
See, there's a magic about the blue couch. I don't even know how you and I got to know each other. Just through the industry, I guess, because we've both been in the world of marketing and communication storytelling ever. Exactly. I know you've worked for nine CEOs of big companies, so there's a lot to cover. But I do want to start with the young Sally. Right. Because you grew up in a conservative part of the world and a pretty prominent family where your father went on to become an ambassador. And I think it would be interesting to get just a little bit of an insight into what young Sally was like.
- [02:00]
Sally Sussman
So I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri, which is about as Midwestern as Midwestern gets. And little Sally was a lot.
- [02:08]
Podcast Host
What does that mean?
- [02:09]
Sally Sussman
I look back and I think I put my parents through a lot, you know, skipping class and just I was a handful. As I was thinking about talking with you today, and the whole messy mantra thing, I was a mess. My room was like a bomb blew up in it.
- [02:26]
Podcast Host
I Am not seeing that at all. So this is such an interesting insight because I would have seen a perfect, totally organized.
- [02:34]
Sally Sussman
That was the rest of the house. Okay. Because my parents were very ambitious. They were very connected, they were very hardworking. They had big plans for themselves and for my brother and me, but not me. I mean, I was just really running wild through the neighborhood. I mean, let me just say, my family's great and they still are great, but it was a lot of pressure. We were people on the move and we did politics. We had senators and governors come stay at the house. You know, my father, who as you mentioned was really a big part of my life and I sometimes refer to him as. To me, he was the tallest tree in the forest of the dads, you know, I just loved him. I love him still. He was then a lawyer, very self made. Ultimately my parents moved from Missouri to Chicago. And then as you mentioned, they. They lived in London. When he was ambassador of the Court of St. James. We used to laugh. I used to call my dad the ambassador when he was a young man because he always had that ambition. And my parents were really this well oiled team. But this was a family very in check.
- [03:51]
Podcast Host
But that feels like so much pressure.
- [03:53]
Sally Sussman
It was, it was so much pressure.
- [03:55]
Podcast Host
So much privilege and so much pressure.
- [03:58]
Sally Sussman
Yes. It's an interesting combination, privilege and pressure. When I graduated from college, my first job on Capitol Hill in the mail room of the home state senator, Tom Eagleton from Missouri. I got it because my dad was his friend. And you know, that's a great opportunity. It comes with some shame that, you know, you were a Nepo baby.
- [04:24]
Podcast Host
Did you have shame then or is that now just a thing we've learned to have shame about?
- [04:29]
Sally Sussman
I had pressure for sure. Yeah. And I certainly kept it on the down low that dad and the senator were besties. But it made me anxious, you know, that I was going to have to really perform. Now, as it turns out, I love to work. You know, school, not so much. I didn't understand why we went to school. So I did not do well in school. Young Sally used to intercept the report card coming home in the mail. Amazing. Because it was so bad. I was really a handful of.
- [05:01]
Podcast Host
But it's interesting cause I also know I read the story and listened to the story of you going back home to tell your parents that you were gay. And again, it's such a vivid memory. Even in reading it, I can't imagine what the memory's like. But take us back to that moment where you call home with this very ominous. I need to come home and tell you something.
- [05:21]
Sally Sussman
I had just graduated from college. My parents were still then living in St. Louis. And because we were this tight knit, close, you know, working together, sort of family, I knew I had to tell them. I mean, to not tell them would be essentially removing myself from.
- [05:40]
Podcast Host
But you hadn't told them all those years you knew as a kid.
- [05:43]
Sally Sussman
Well, you know, maybe in hindsight I see that I really knew for sure in college. And when I graduated from college and moved to Washington D.C. and it was a whole gay world, which I hope we get a chance to talk about today, it was very clear that I needed to tell them. So I booked a seat on twa. If you remember TWA Airlines, it was the only direct flight from Connecticut back to St. Louis. I got on the plane and I passed out. I literally, you know, was so nervous and scared to tell them because I knew this was going to be bad. It was not.
- [06:19]
Podcast Host
Why did you know it was going to be bad?
- [06:21]
Sally Sussman
Well, because this family was a family on a, on a mission. You know, we were, we were headed for big things.
- [06:28]
Podcast Host
And being gay wasn't part of the.
- [06:30]
Sally Sussman
Being gay was not a part of it. And it's funny to talk about it now because this was 40 years ago. It was the heart of the AIDS epidemic. People were dying. Most professionals lived in the closet or when people came out, they gave up being professionals. It wasn't compatible that you could be a high performing professional and be an out lesbian. So, you know, I go home. I remember my dad picking me up at the airport, my mom and I preparing dinner. And finally at the end of dinner, my mom said, like, you know, what is it we need? What's happening here? And we sat down, my mom and I were on the sofa, my dad in a chair. I had rehearsed thousands of times walking to work in the shower. I really prepared. This was my first major communications crisis. Communications work. And then, you know, the two words that change everything to say I'm gay. And it was a big disaster. My father started to cry. My mom was furious. And I remember my dad saying to me, you'll never have a spouse, you'll never have children, you'll never have a career. Those words, they hurt me a lot. But that was not his intention. And I need to say that this was parental fear speaking, that I was just going to be sidelined.
- [07:58]
Podcast Host
How did that feel?
- [08:02]
Sally Sussman
It felt both gutting, but also it crystallized a life plan for me. And in the discussion of mess, it was probably the messiest moment of my life. It took years for my family to recover, and lots of things led to the recovery. I have a wonderful wife. Partner, then wife. We have a beautiful daughter.
- [08:30]
Podcast Host
You've had an amazing career.
- [08:31]
Sally Sussman
My parents are, you know, they're like my PR machine. They're so proud, and they're. They're great. But in that moment, I didn't know if we would recover. You know, I didn't know if that tall tree of my father was going to bend or snap.
- [08:48]
Podcast Host
So they have a reaction that you kind of expect. How did you even, like, get back on that plane and leave? Like, were you despondent?
- [08:57]
Sally Sussman
Totally despondent. I don't know how I got back on the plane. I don't remember if my father drove me to the airport or I took a cab. I don't remember what day of the week it was. I was just trying to survive.
- [09:12]
Podcast Host
And so it's so interesting because you talk so much, and one of the tenets in your book is all about authenticity and being an authentic leader. And so here you are in this moment where you take the courage to be authentic. It backfires, at least for a period, but you begin to find your way.
- [09:32]
Sally Sussman
It's the best thing that ever happened to me. Nothing scared me after that. I mean, I had risked my relationship with my family. And since then, when I'm in work or in politics and something is scary or awkward, you know the types of moments, I'm unafraid because this was the very best thing. It gave me strength. It's an advantage in my life that, you know, when people know you, they. There's this human thing. They sort of want to help you. They get behind you in a way. I don't talk about my private life day and night, but I have a picture of Rob and my wife and me on my desk. You know, talk about my daughter. People get behind you. And so it was the greatest thing. And again, in the cauldron of this horrible moment and this terrible thing, my father said to me, that was my life plan, and if I was going to have nothing else.
- [10:39]
Podcast Host
But by the way, you leave and go back to a job, you actually were still working.
- [10:42]
Sally Sussman
I was still working in a pretty junior job.
- [10:45]
Podcast Host
And you said something. You said, washington. There was a big gay scene in Washington. Not something I really think about.
- [10:50]
Sally Sussman
Well, the 1980s was the time. And I don't know if it's a chicken or egg with aids. Did AIDS create, you know, this kind of political motion or if it just coincidentally came together? But many of us, myself included, we were still in the closet at work, but in the weekends, in the nighttime, we were dancing, we were marching, we were meeting each other. We were creating a very powerful network. My two closest friends to this day, Hilary Rosen and Lisa Sherman, who maybe, you know, I met them then. We met in Washington in the mid-80s. We were all active in the early gay civil rights movement. And if you had told us then that we would be living the lives. We're all married. We all have children.
- [11:43]
Podcast Host
You all have very successful careers.
- [11:45]
Sally Sussman
Thank you. Being a part of this hard time, it was a hard, hard time, really strengthened us and gave us a backbone.
- [11:53]
Podcast Host
So, I mean, there's still people who are in the closet, whether about their sexuality or other things. You clearly lived through the mess and made it to the other side. For somebody who's sort of struggling with being their authentic self at work or in other parts of their lives, what's the advice you would give them?
- [12:09]
Sally Sussman
In my role in various companies, you know, I am supposed to help people tell the company story, tell their story. And one very senior, successful executive called me into her office, closed the door, and said, sally, I need you to hire the best PR firm there is for me. And I said, well, okay. Why? And she said, to make me authentic.
- [12:35]
Podcast Host
What? I need to hire someone to make me authentic.
- [12:39]
Sally Sussman
I can't just be authentic, Deck in a presentation about how to be authentic. And. And of course, you know, because you do this so well and you are this way yourself, Authenticity resides in us. I often feel that secrets are corrosive. And so getting out of that closet, whatever it is, is so important. I know people who've. Who've done it different ways, but I don't know anyone who regretted it, even people who had really tough things.
- [13:10]
Podcast Host
Well, I mean, I think we all know that you have to go through the mess, and the only way is through the growth comes from the messy parts. But let's go back. So you switch over, you decide to take a job in corporate, and you join Amex.
- [13:25]
Sally Sussman
But this is an important decision I made, and I just want to say it was another example of things didn't pan out the way I thought they would, because I always assumed I would work in government. It was a noble profession. It was embedded in my family. I thought, maybe I'll run for mayor of my hometown. But I found government slow, frustrating, bureaucratic, personality dominated, and not the easiest place in the world from which to do good.
- [13:56]
Podcast Host
Are you going to tell me that you were, like, not the easiest place to do good. I'm going to go to corporate America.
- [14:01]
Sally Sussman
Yes. This is what I'm going to tell you.
- [14:02]
Podcast Host
That is amazing.
- [14:03]
Sally Sussman
This is what I'm going to tell you. After many months of working on a piece of legislation, I achieved changing an or to an and. And legalistically that can be significant. Emotionally, it was completely empty. You know, this is this kind of micro work. I knew one person at American Express, a very lovely man who would occasionally come down and lobby the senators that I worked for. And finally he gave me like a 7:30am coffee spot on a Monday morning. He and I are talking and he tells me I'm a nice girl and I should stay in my nice job in Washington because it's such a nice job. And out of nowhere I said, I'm leaving the Hill and I've come to see you because you were my first choice. But I have an appointment later this afternoon with your competitor. And if you're not interested in me, that's okay. But then I'm gonna go to MasterCard.
- [15:04]
Podcast Host
Where did this voice come from?
- [15:06]
Sally Sussman
I don't know.
- [15:06]
Podcast Host
Okay.
- [15:07]
Sally Sussman
It was totally a lie. I guess you would say it was a lie, but it was a no.
- [15:11]
Podcast Host
That was a bold move. Okay.
- [15:12]
Sally Sussman
It was a bold move. Thank you. But this is what work became for me. I understood work. One foot in front of the other. There's a pretty straightforward equation in work. You know, you give it your all and they will give you compensation and opportunity.
- [15:27]
Podcast Host
I don't know. That's not totally true, right? I mean, we know people that don't have that at work.
- [15:33]
Sally Sussman
Of course. And of course you're right. But for me, work was magical. Okay? Work was magical. And my theory proved correct because corporations were moving ahead of the government.
- [15:44]
Podcast Host
Well, they definitely move faster. And you know, there's a whole issue around trust and how people don't trust a lot of things, including government. Today they trust companies more. Not totally, but more. And some companies more and some companies more. So it's an interesting thing. So you go to amex, you talk your way into amex.
- [16:03]
Sally Sussman
My way in. I find the little gay group in American Express, and we decide we're going to go for same sex partner benefits. The CEO at the time was a man named Harvey Golub. Harvey was a very successful CEO, but he was a very gruff man and a bit intimidating, you know, very sort of foreboding presence. And so we rehearse and we rehearse and we do our deck and we do our deck and we go in and it was Actually, a pretty. I don't want to say easy, but straightforward analysis with him, because it was put in. This is good for your business terms.
- [16:40]
Podcast Host
Were you nervous going in?
- [16:41]
Sally Sussman
Oh, yeah. I mean, there were about six of us who went in, you know, and it was like one of those things, Mikey will do it. Sally will go. You know, I don't really know how I ended up in that group, but I was excited to be in that group. I have a saying that my friends know that I'm happiest when my heart is in my throat. And that was a heart was in my throat moment.
- [17:05]
Podcast Host
Well, that's change. Like, you were actually interested in making change, and here you are, in fact, making change through Amex.
- [17:11]
Sally Sussman
Like, yes.
- [17:12]
Podcast Host
That's not every single job in corporate America.
- [17:15]
Sally Sussman
No. But Amex, you know, it's a company like any other.
- [17:19]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [17:20]
Sally Sussman
And we were a group of activist employees that exist in others. And I'm pushing back on you a little bit because, yes, I've had fortunate opportunities, and I've tried to make the most of them, but there's a lot of opportunities out there.
- [17:35]
Podcast Host
But you made the opportunities. You went and sought them out. I mean, my point is that sometimes people go, and it's sort of a clock in, clock out experience. They're not looking to become an activist at Amex. Right. So that's a choice. You have to find that. You have to lean into that. I mean, we know plenty of people who take corporate jobs. At least I do, where the motto is, I just don't want to get fired, so I'm going to operate with that lens.
- [17:59]
Sally Sussman
Tragic. That's so tragic. But it's true.
- [18:01]
Podcast Host
True.
- [18:01]
Sally Sussman
I know it's true. Most of my friends don't work in corporate America. Most of them, you know, hit the exit at some point along the way because they tired of the. The overlay, the cultural demands, the.
- [18:16]
Podcast Host
The politics.
- [18:17]
Sally Sussman
The politics. I kind of loved it. I really loved it. And as you know, we're sitting here today just as I'm concluding it, and it's, you know, rooted in the mess. Right. It was rooted in the coming out and the AIDS epidemic and probably one of the fastest civil rights movements we've ever experienced for LGBTQ people. And that is where I thrived.
- [18:40]
Podcast Host
So I want to go. I know you went to Estee after that, to Estee Lauder, but then you decide to go to Pfizer at a time where there was really not a lot of love for Big Pharma. I don't know if there's always Love for big pharma. But I so remember you saying that your friend group was like, what are you thinking?
- [18:59]
Sally Sussman
Yeah. So one of the key things to finding purposeful intersections in big companies, I believe, is finding the companies that sort of live on Main street in the public mind.
- [19:14]
Podcast Host
So what does that mean?
- [19:15]
Sally Sussman
That they're leaders in their field. They want to have high visibility like you. You know, American Express had Annie Leibowitz taking their photographs for their ad campaigns. And they had celebrity CEOs like Ken Chenault, Estee Lauder. It has this big New York family at the center of it, the Lauder family. One brother is chairman of MoMA, the other was chairman of the Whitney Pfizer, you know, right here in New York City, one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies there are. I chose those places for that reason. It wasn't about the lipstick or the Lipitor. It was about companies that wanted to set the pace and really had a place in the public mind. And I was very happy at Estee Lauder. It's a great company, great family. But when a recruiter called about Pfizer, I thought, well, this is like the worst job in the world. I have to take this job. Not the worst, the hardest. That's what I mean to say. Because Pfizer makes life saving medicine and nobody likes them. And I thought, well, you know, I'm pretty good at this stuff. I can tell their stories, I can come up with new ideas and fresh approaches. And I got in and I ran into a brick wall. It was so much harder than I thought. So much regulation, so much complexity. Regulation which dictates who you can talk to, what you can say. But more than that, a pervasive cynicism. And I'll never forget listening to a focus group from behind the glass and they were talking about insulin, which Pfizer doesn't even make. But they said these pharma companies, they have a cure for diabetes, but they won't bring it forward because insulin is so profitable. And literally I shed a tear that day because, I mean, nothing could be further from the truth. These companies are not deep sixing cures so that they can make money. It's very wrong. But I realized what I was up against. And I wasn't sure.
- [21:25]
Podcast Host
We just had somebody who shot the head of a United Healthcare. The perception around pharma and health is improved, some, I would say during COVID.
- [21:36]
Sally Sussman
But it's very tough. And again, I, I knew I was not making enough progress and I contemplated stepping away from Pfizer before the pandemic because I thought, this is just, you know, maybe I can't do it. But the pandemic gave me a rare and very unique opportunity. And it was a game changer. It was a game changer because the whole world was paying attention. And the stakes were so high that I could do things differently. For example, I embedded media, both the Wall Street Journal and a documentary film crew into our labs. And our.
- [22:20]
Podcast Host
They would never have done that otherwise.
- [22:23]
Sally Sussman
We put our clinical trial protocols, which is our treasured intellectual property, up on the website because we didn't have three years to fill these clinical trials.
- [22:35]
Podcast Host
Okay, so let's talk about that for a second, because it's so interesting. You picked jobs where they had a big presence. I picked jobs where I could fix things, like turnarounds. Right. So we went into things different ways, a little different direction, but here you are, and there's a moment in time. I mean, we go back to Covid, it was like, oh, there's a virus. Next thing you know, we're all in lockdown. You know, everybody was wearing masks. Right. It was a really dark time, not just in the US but globally. And so take us back into, like, a messy moment where you were able to convince somebody to do something that was not culturally the norm.
- [23:14]
Sally Sussman
Well, nobody forgets where they were. In March of 2020, I was in New York City. Robyn was away on a ski trip with her friends. And I remember calling her and saying, just come home. Cause it was weird and scared and dark, and the bodegas were. The shelves were thinning, and the refrigerator trucks were lining up at the hospitals. I just remember calling a colleague of mine, a Pfizer colleague, who led our business in China, just to see how he was doing. Because, you remember, China was the epicenter, and he didn't sound good at all. And I thought, this is just gonna be terrible. And yet, my boss, Albert Bourla, Pfizer CEO, he flew to Greece to give a speech. And when he landed, the conference had closed. He comes back, he's got a little piece of paper. It's got three things on it. We're going to take care of our 85,000 employees. We're going to make sure the steady supply of medicine continues, and we're going to make a vaccine before the end of the year. And everything changed. And the truth is, I didn't have to fight to bring the reporters in. Nobody was paying attention to me. And I ran through that opportunity at full speed.
- [24:32]
Podcast Host
You know, there are definitely risks that come with doing that. I mean, I'LL think of Gary Ginsburg, well known in the world of corporate comms. And he brought in people into Murdoch's world, as we know, Michael Wolfe. And it went sideways. I mean, I joke like, you know, it doesn't always work. So I do want to talk about that.
- [24:51]
Sally Sussman
The risk factor was on a whole different scale than normal, because if Pfizer failed, I mean, first of all, we put a billion dollars of our capital at risk. We didn't take government money. 1 billion grew to 2 billion in unexpected costs. And I'm filming the whole thing. And I think, wow, Sally, you are filming what could be one of the greatest corporate debacles of all time. But I also thought, if Pfizer fails, the world's over. Bad news day for Pfizer is the least of it, right? The world is over. We would still be in quarantine. Our children wouldn't be educated, our businesses would close. I mean, talk about a mess. This worldwide mess led to three very important things to me. The first was a massive scientific breakthrough. MRNA technology is a game changer. It's a once a century kind of leapfrog innovation. Two, at least for a time, it transformed the reputation of Pfizer. We became a top 10 global brand for several years. We were much admired. Everywhere we went, people thanked us. I was in an event last night and people were thanking us. So it created an amazing reservoir of goodwill for the company. But it also changed me.
- [26:15]
Podcast Host
How did it change you?
- [26:16]
Sally Sussman
In two ways. The most important one is it's one of the key places where I found my voice because I had been a behind the scenes player. I would be the person who would walk in the room and hand the CEO his talking.
- [26:31]
Podcast Host
Most corporate comms, for those who are listening, are behind the scenes.
- [26:35]
Sally Sussman
Yes, you're arranging, you're preparing, but there wasn't enough of us to go around. And so I found myself not even talking to the usual stakeholders, but new stakeholders. I spoke to the teachers union. They want to know, like, when is it safe? Should they go back into the classroom? I talked to the restaurant workers who wanted to know, when can you know, do we have to wear a mask? Do the patrons wear masks? I was on a tremendous number of podcasts and radio shows and even did some television and, and wrote a book. In the end, well, well, that was the. The big thing. I've always been a writer. I love to write. I had some failed attempts at other books, but in the mess of the pandemic, it all became crystal clear to me. It's not A book about communication. It's a book about leadership. Everybody I'd ever worked for had educated me to be ready for this moment. And you don't know when that moment is going to come, when you need it all.
- [27:38]
Podcast Host
Well, it's like the world presented itself. You were at a job that got very busy. I was at next door. Our traffic went up 80%. So I was definitely not making bread. I was in the pantry, hiding from my family, working 24 7. Do you think that it was just you responding to that moment, or do you think it was sort of like you. You were always meant to be that person, and the calling showed up.
- [28:02]
Sally Sussman
Such a good question. And a little bit of both, or maybe all of the above. Whether I liked it or not, these days were gonna pass in the way they passed, you know, lockdown. But I had purpose. I mean, I had a reason. I did not know if it was Wednesday or Sunday. I did not know, you know, what sometimes what time of day it was. We were having conference calls multiple times a day, and sometimes they would go into the night. But I was lit up with this feeling that I was, you know, saving lives. And part of it was the roll of the dice that I happened to work at the place that was going to possibly make the difference. But the other piece of it, and I think it's something important for your listeners, is be ready, because you don't know when it's coming for you.
- [28:52]
Podcast Host
So one of the things that I also remember in doing research about you is that you saw the movie the Intern, and you all of a sudden wanted, you know, an intern like Robert De Niro.
- [29:01]
Sally Sussman
Yeah, well, the intern predated the pandemic. I was still at Pfizer trying to get this company to break through. And I was flying back from a business trip. I just started scrolling through the movies and I watched the Internet. And by the time the movie ends and the plane is landing, I'm sobbing. Robert De Niro, who plays the role of the intern, isn't so much her mentor as a lifeline for her. He's this trusted soul who becomes the heart and soul of the office. And I just decided I was gonna completely copy this idea and do this at Pfizer. So, you know, I had to convince HR to let me do it.
- [29:43]
Podcast Host
And I think, well, how'd you find somebody who was like your Robert De Niro?
- [29:47]
Sally Sussman
I knew there was only ever one person in my mind. Paul Critchlow was the head of corporate affairs at Merrill Lynch. And then when they got bought by bank of America. He became vice chairman, and he retired in that position. But he was sort of the goat. He was that guy. And he's so charismatic, handsome, college football hero, journalist, war veteran, the whole package. And he had recently retired. He was then kind of where I am now. I took him to lunch at a place I knew was his favorite spot in Greenwich Village. I was nervous all the way through lunch until I sort of popped the question at the end of our meal. And I said, have you seen the movie the Intern? He's like, no. So I explained the whole thing, and then I said, would you consider being my senior summer intern? He told me he had to think about it, which I knew meant he had to ask his wife. And they came back with a roaring, yes, he would do it. And it surpassed my wild.
- [30:53]
Podcast Host
How long did he do it with you?
- [30:55]
Sally Sussman
He did it for one full summer. And then I think he did some ad hoc engagements with us following that. But it went beyond my wildest dreams. I mean, the other interns loved hanging out with him. But the key thing is some journalists picked this up. It was not done for a press move, but a journalist heard about it and ended up making it a cover story in Fast Company magazine. I had been trying to get Pfizer into Fast Company magazine for almost 10 years at this point. And they love this kind of quirky, intergenerational, unconventional. And we were right up front that it wasn't our idea. We, you know, borrowed it. We were invited to speak at Main Stage, south by Southwest. And it's a great story. It's a story I'd like to tell because I didn't hire an agency.
- [31:47]
Podcast Host
Did you compensate him?
- [31:48]
Sally Sussman
Yes. Oh. So I said to him, I'll give you a retainer. Because he was this guy up here and I was down here. He said, well, what do the other interns make? And I said, well, $18.25 an hour. He says, I'll take that. I said, but let me give you an office. And he says, well, where do the other interns sit? I said, in the bullpen in media. He said, I'll sit there. So I knew from the get go.
- [32:11]
Podcast Host
That he was the right person.
- [32:12]
Sally Sussman
He was the right person. And it's an experience both he and I cherish. But I think one thing that's very important about it, Twyla Tharp, the dancer choreographer, in her book the Creative Habit, has a concept called scratching. And scratching is just where you get an idea by, you know, going to a movie or reading a different kind of Book or walking down a different street, that the ideas are almost lying at your feet if you can be open and aware to pick them up and look at them.
- [32:43]
Podcast Host
Well, I was gonna say that you were always open to finding help in other places. Like somebody else could have been. Like, why would I need him?
- [32:52]
Sally Sussman
Oh, I always think I need help.
- [32:53]
Podcast Host
The reason I was going to talk about that was because you're now entering a new chapter and you could be the intern or somebody.
- [33:02]
Sally Sussman
You're going to get me a new job. Someone's going to listen to this.
- [33:04]
Podcast Host
1825. So I know lots of women in the C suite who are going through transition, as you know. There's a group of us. There's a group of us. Tomorrow you show up at a cocktail party, Sally. What do you do? What is the answer you have for that question?
- [33:19]
Sally Sussman
I'm working on the answer. And I think of myself as an advocate. I'm an author and I'm an abecedarian. Oh, what is that? Nobody knows the word, which is great. It means a beginner in all things, and the root of it is abc Abecedarian. It means an early learner. I went to a flower arranging class. If you know me and you do, it's probably the last place you would think I would go, but they had one in my neighborhood.
- [33:46]
Podcast Host
I'm not so sure now that I'm seeing the young Sally in her messy room. I have all kinds of possibilities for you, Sally.
- [33:52]
Sally Sussman
Well, I actually feel like I'm getting younger. This was one of the most difficult decisions I've ever made. I thought about it for a very long time.
- [34:03]
Podcast Host
Leaving the corporate world.
- [34:04]
Sally Sussman
Leaving the corporate world.
- [34:05]
Podcast Host
I refuse to use the word retire.
- [34:06]
Sally Sussman
Thank you. Because I don't like it. I don't like that word because I.
- [34:08]
Podcast Host
Just don't see you.
- [34:09]
Sally Sussman
I'm not retiring.
- [34:10]
Podcast Host
I mean, you can work in a.
- [34:11]
Sally Sussman
Lot of different ways. It was just announced last week. I went on the board of a company called Flutter out of the uk. I mean, the hardest part was stepping away.
- [34:19]
Podcast Host
What was hard about that? Well, I. I mean, I know the answer for me.
- [34:25]
Sally Sussman
So for me, I'd been in a very comfortable groove. And it was a groove I. I excavated myself. I. I built it. I had an excellent team. I had a platform. I had a routine that I liked. I traveled. I met interesting people. But I really also knew that it was time. At some gut level, I knew it was time and that there were other things out there. I just wasn't sure what they were. And I found them hard to explore while I was engaged with work.
- [34:57]
Podcast Host
You know, when you first came in, we had this moment, right? Because I remember when I took a pause at my career. When you leave the corporate job all of a sudden, or you say you're leaving immediately, your phone stops ringing, and as you said, calendar appointments start vanishing. I mean, I remember this when I left Hyatt.
- [35:14]
Sally Sussman
That's why you have to be so ready. When my dad stepped back from his professional life, he really cratered. I mean, he became, you know, just lost. And I don't think he had prepared. He was just running until he couldn't run anymore.
- [35:32]
Podcast Host
Did he not find other things to do with himself?
- [35:35]
Sally Sussman
No, he didn't. And now.
- [35:37]
Podcast Host
So that's a good lesson.
- [35:38]
Sally Sussman
It was a big lesson. Now he worked until he was 75. So, you know, my dad, like many people I meet, are psychologically unprepared for this change.
- [35:48]
Podcast Host
Okay, so knowing that, how did you prepare? Like, what's the lesson? Cause there's gonna be people who are listening, who are thinking about what we're talking about.
- [35:55]
Sally Sussman
I think you have to really imagine your off ramp. What kinds of things will I do? I already had one corporate board I was on because I knew I wanted to do that. I started thinking about other writing projects that I started to pursue. I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to just fall into a well of irrelevancy in this big hole. I started laying some track on things that I would want to do after the fact. I also waited a bit. I didn't go with the first instinct.
- [36:28]
Podcast Host
You mean the first instinct doesn't what.
- [36:29]
Sally Sussman
You say the first time? I thought advisory. You know, I'd mentioned maybe before the pandemic or, you know, after. Right after the pandemic. Because once you say those words, they're out of your mouth and they're in someone else's ear and it's happening. And once Albert, my boss, and I discussed this and we knew that this was the right step, I wanted to move quickly because, oh, it's like fish after three days.
- [36:54]
Podcast Host
Yeah, 100%. The minute the word is out, it's over. Doesn't matter how long because you can still be in the job and people have moved on. I mean, it is just what happens, right?
- [37:04]
Sally Sussman
Yes, yes, and they should. Pfizer has been great, and my off ramping has been very gracious and generous. But I've learned a few things. Like you asked for some of the tips first. I saved every affirmation note I got, every single one. I'm sure this happened to you. Emails or texts. I read them and I saved them, and they're in a nice little file.
- [37:28]
Podcast Host
There'll be days you want to look at them because there'll be days that'll be hard.
- [37:32]
Sally Sussman
I have written a lot of thank you letters, and I found it a very therapeutic practice. I had to do a few, make amends to a few people where, you know, when we look back on a hard charging career, we didn't do everything perfectly.
- [37:47]
Podcast Host
No question.
- [37:48]
Sally Sussman
There was one or two people I wrote heartfelt apology letters to who responded beautifully. You know how you get a lot of feedback in corporate America on your personality? Yeah.
- [37:59]
Podcast Host
I once got 360 reviews.
- [38:00]
Sally Sussman
360. I once got some tough feedback. And it was my developmental opportunity that people felt that I was too transactional and that if Sally Sussman was calling you, it's because she needed something. And that stung me. And I tried to be better. And I would sometimes call people just to check in or I would start with asking, how's the family? But I knew I was still pretty transactional. So now I'm just meeting people without no agenda. Agenda. Right. And I'm finding it so energizing and interesting and meeting new people. I've met some people through your group.
- [38:42]
Podcast Host
So one of the things I want to talk about is something you did that really struck me, which is in this mayoral election in New York where there was a very complicated race, you actually publicly stood up for Zoron, which, you know, was a difficult thing to do given your corporate life, your personal life. And I just think it's worth talking about that because there are many instances as we talk about your career and your journey, frankly, where you leaned in, where somebody else might have said, not for me or not publicly. And I know you took heat for that. So I want to talk about that because it's messy.
- [39:23]
Sally Sussman
It's messy. So let me tell you how I got there. I noticed that many people in the business community were very negative to Zorhan. And I mean, I know why commercial real estate people don't, like, freeze the rent. And, you know, we are a city of capitalism and he's a socialist. But I felt that the business community was not giving him the attention and respect he was due for such a stunning victory. Well, this actually. My engagement preceded.
- [39:57]
Podcast Host
It preceded his win.
- [39:58]
Sally Sussman
It preceded his win. But I guess having been around politicians all my life and worked for senators and cabinet secretaries and presidents, I saw something in him which was a gifted, gifted politician, communicator, motivator So I knew someone who knew him and I asked my friend, could you make an introduction for me? And he did. And he and I went and saw Zorhan and spent an hour with him. And in all my life I had a conversation with him like I've never had with any other.
- [40:35]
Podcast Host
What does that mean?
- [40:37]
Sally Sussman
He asked me about what does it take to be a game changing leader? Okay, you don't usually. Because most politicians think they are game.
- [40:44]
Podcast Host
Changing, most of them just talk about themselves.
- [40:46]
Sally Sussman
Correct. He didn't. He was an excellent listener. He asked me, based on having been in government and so many corporations, how do I think about creating an organization? So he was asking these very probing questions and I was equally impressed by what he didn't ask me. He did not ask me for money. I've never met with a politician who didn't ask me for money. He did not ask me for an endorsement. And I was so inspired by this hour I had with him, which would have been in early summer. So as you say before the primary that I said, well, how can I help you? And what he asked was incredibly reasonable and smart. He asked me to convene small group meetings with other business leaders like myself, just sort of open minded people. So I did that over the summer and they went great. I mean, I wanted to make sure we had a facilitated conversation, but it wasn't scripted. He was always on time, he was always prepared. And then over the summer there was lots of articles being written and the campaign asked me if I would speak on the record.
- [41:53]
Podcast Host
What were the articles? Sorry, so people may not have read them. So what were the articles?
- [41:56]
Sally Sussman
What were the articles about? What's happening in this campaign? Will he win? Can he win over moderate New Yorkers? You know, questions about his relationship with the business community or the Jewish community, both of which I belong to these communities. And so I spoke about my experience and I did get a fair amount of uncomfortable responses of people who were disappointed in me or felt I wasn't paying enough attention to his views on Israel. The most important thing from my perspective was first and foremost I believed early on he was going to win and that it would serve the people and the groups and the stakeholders I care about to be engaged and not just throwing spit wads from a distance. The other thing is, I believe that he is a person who is growing and learning and adapting with new information. That's not to say that he's walking away from his basic progressive views. No. You know, he's not malleable in that way. But he asks probing questions, and I have seen some of his positions morph a little bit. For example, over time, I believe he became more convinced of the necessity and the value of keeping Commissioner Tisch as our police commissioner, because so many people were talking to him about it.
- [43:23]
Podcast Host
Did you ever consider, since you knew you were going to be stepping away from your corporate life, joining.
- [43:29]
Sally Sussman
I did. There was a moment where I thought, oh, wouldn't it be fun? And then I really thought, I actually do not wish to have another job.
- [43:39]
Podcast Host
It's such a good. Such a good moment of honesty.
- [43:42]
Sally Sussman
It was a huge.
- [43:44]
Podcast Host
Because it's easy to get sucked back in.
- [43:46]
Sally Sussman
It's seductive. I mean, you know, being relevant in that way. A young politician, New York City, a girl from the Midwest. You know, I thought it would be very exciting. But I am now the CEO of me. I am happy to help him. I want to help him as much as I can, but I have other things I want to do too. And especially the greatest thing is controlling your calendar. That is what has been most surprising, delightful, joyful, amazing, is that I can now control my calendar. That's amazing.
- [44:21]
Podcast Host
I'm so excited about this period for you because I think that you're somebody who likes to learn but also teach, which is why you did the book, which is why I think that you're gonna teach a lot of us how. How to think about this next chapter.
- [44:34]
Sally Sussman
Well, we're going through it together.
- [44:36]
Podcast Host
I know, but we learn together.
- [44:37]
Sally Sussman
Yeah. I'm on the tail end of the baby boom, and we're a big cohort. I am trying to help other people as I help myself transition.
- [44:47]
Podcast Host
I love that it's. Service was always in you. Okay. So we always end with rapid fire, which I know. You know, because you've listened to the podcast, because you're also a good student. Okay. So if you look back on the messiest parts of your lives, what was the messiest? And what would you rate it from a scale of 1 to 10?
- [45:07]
Sally Sussman
I think my biggest mess was when I disappointed my first boss. I leaked something in confidence, and it blew up, and I really never forgot it. And it's even painful to talk about it right now.
- [45:19]
Podcast Host
Good Lesson. Scale of one to ten, was that a ten?
- [45:21]
Sally Sussman
Yeah.
- [45:22]
Podcast Host
Oh, a ten. What would you tell somebody who's 35 today?
- [45:26]
Sally Sussman
Worry less. Worry less. I worried like crazy when I was in my 30s, and I talked to a lot of people in their 30s, and they're all so stressed. You know, I said the wrong thing in a meeting. Just don't worry so much. You're gonna be fine.
- [45:41]
Podcast Host
You've talked about being nervous. I mean, we're all nervous. I think one thing I would love to talk about is how do you push through to get to the other side? Like how do you put the nerves aside and stick, still function, actually succeed?
- [45:54]
Sally Sussman
Well, fear and fear of failure has been a big motivator in my life, which is why I probably said nervous 100 times on this podcast. But I believe what pushes me through is the high that I get from that heart in my throat feeling. I know when I'm doing something that is, you know, outside of my comfort zone, whether it's professional or social or in a community thing, it is a feeling that is incredibly gratifying just on the other side of that nervousness.
- [46:30]
Podcast Host
And I think the more you do that, the more muscle memory you have to push through.
- [46:34]
Sally Sussman
Yes, it gets easier over time, over time.
- [46:36]
Podcast Host
But we're always.
- [46:36]
Sally Sussman
But I'd still get nervous.
- [46:39]
Podcast Host
I love the honesty. What's a myth that you think people tell people about careers that you think is a waste of time?
- [46:46]
Sally Sussman
A lot. One is the five year plan. I hate that when people tell me they have a five year plan, I sort of roll my eyes in my head. You know, you have to be opportunistic and take what comes. The other thing I really hate is the elevator pitch. If your fate is going to rest what happens in this elevator, then try something else.
- [47:05]
Podcast Host
What advice do you have for somebody who's just starting off or thinking they need to make a switch?
- [47:10]
Sally Sussman
Give yourself the latitude to not force it to be what you or others say it must be. So maybe you're doing something and there's a volunteer component to it. I know people have to make a living, but get involved in a campaign or get involved in something in your community so that you are meeting people. Opening your aperture, not closing. Closing your aperture while you go through this time.
- [47:39]
Podcast Host
That's a perfect place to end. And I actually really loved your book. There were many, many beyond the 10 tenets. There were many great lessons. Thank you so much for coming on and I'm very excited to have this go out into the world.
- [47:51]
Sally Sussman
Thanks so much.
- [47:52]
Podcast Host
Thank you for listening to the messy parts. Sally's episode is just such a great example of finding your voice over and over again and reinventing yourself. We really appreciate you making it to the end. Remember, if you enjoyed this episode, like it, share it and write a review and you can find us not just here, but on all the different places you can get your podcast and on Instagram. Oh, and Tik Tok.