← The Messy Parts
The Messy Parts
Build a $22M Company While Surviving Layoffs, Lawsuits, Losing Friends: Create and Cultivate's Jaclyn Johnson
00:41:27
Loading summary
Transcript145 lines
- [00:00]
A
When did you know Create and Cultivate was like a real thing, that it wasn't just a break even project?
- [00:04]
B
So after the first event in 2016, the momentum was crazy. It was unreal. Clients I would have killed to have at no Subject were emailing me like, how do we work with you? And so I was like, there's something here and I think I have to capitalize on this momentum cuz there's something very real about it. One of my clients at no subject was like, I was talking to him about it. I was like, you know, I'm just trying to figure out what to do. And he was like, you do all this cool stuff for other brands, like do it for your own brand. And it kind of really resonated with me. I was like, yeah, like, you're right. This is my opportunity to build like my own thing. And so I, I took the leap. I, you know, never look back.
- [00:48]
A
This week on the messy parts we're going to have on Jacqueline Johnson. She is the force behind Create and Cultivate. A serial entrepreneur, you know, exiting her business at $22 million an investor. She has many, many different businesses that she does at the same time. The interesting thing about Jacqueline is that there's a lot of mess behind that success and that's what we're going to be focused on. Jacqueline, I'm so excited that you agreed to come on the podcast. I wanted to start by mentioning something that I read that you said. You said that for you getting into business and sort of this hustle that you have wasn't about the glamour. You said, I wasn't in it for the glamour, I was in it for the sweat. And that really struck me because a lot of people think that people who are successful are in it for the money or for the glamour. So I want to talk a little bit about sort of your origin story. You grew up in West Palm beach, you know, two parents, a sister, both parents entrepreneurs, seemingly a very comfortable life. And an overachiever. Right. Somebody who did all kinds of things in high school. Where does that drive come from?
- [01:55]
B
I think it's definitely from my parents. Like, they have an insane work ethic. Obviously. They've owned their own business since forever and they have a really interesting partnership. My dad is sort of sales and like the marketing side. My mom is like the financials backend admin. So I got to see both worlds in action. My sister and I would be sitting in their office while they're taking calls, stuffing envelopes and, and kind of just like helping out and that just was like part of our lives. Like when they got home from work, it was like they still were working because they're small business owners. And so I just grew up around that kind of like grit and hustle. And I think for me, I just couldn't wait to work. It was a very strange thing. I don't understand it. But in high school, I had two jobs and I loved having my own independence, my own money, to be able to do what I wanted to do. And so it was always kind of this like innate thing in me. But I also knew I wanted to be in a city and I wanted to. And I think it might have also been like the media we were consuming at that time. Like every movie was a woman as a high powered editor at like a fashion magazine, right? So it's like, oh, I want to be like that. And I definitely had that vision in my head.
- [03:00]
A
You moved to New York to go to NYU and you think, oh, I'm going to go into fashion magazines. Really? And you quickly discover that those jobs don't pay.
- [03:08]
B
Yes, correct. So I was a journalism major, magazine production specialist. And it's kind of amazing to do that in New York City. I was an intern at Avenue magazine. I would go cover events and, and do cool stuff there. And then I ended up getting into an internship at Conde Nast, which is like everyone' dream. And I was at Self and Traveler and I felt like, this is it. I've done the thing I've wanted, always wanted to do. And then I got a offer to be like a junior editor at Allure dream job out of college. And I think I want to say the salary was around $22,000 a year at the time. And I just remember being like, how can I make this work? Like, I'll get another job. I'll bartend on weekends. And I try to negotiate. And she was like, oh. Like, no, there's a million girls that want this job. So, like, if it's a no for you, like, we're just going to like, go down the line. And she's like, but you do get a lot of free makeup. And I remember being like, I can't eat makeup. Like, I can't survive on makeup. And I was so sad. So I had to turn down that job.
- [04:06]
A
What did that feel like? Because here's the dream. You actually get your dream and you have to pass on it. For a lot of people, that moment of disappointment would have been like, I'm going to roll up like a ball and move back To West Palm, you know, big fish in a small pond kind of a thing. It didn't do that for you. It actually propels you.
- [04:21]
B
I do really well when people tell me no or say I can't do something, like, it's actually the best medicine for me, because I just am like, no, I will absolutely show you I can't do this.
- [04:31]
A
So I read that you had, like, a million internships, which is funny. I was telling the interns, they were doing a social post about all the internships I had, and they couldn't believe how many internships I was able to squeeze in. What do you think gave you that sort of hunger, that thirst for just all these experiences that you're accumulating?
- [04:47]
B
I really wanted to learn by doing. And that's one thing I really loved about NYU was my professors were executive producers at cnn. You know, they worked at Time, Inc. And so I was able to really get that, like, very specific on the job, apprenticeship style training. And obviously, being in New York City having an internship, you get a bird's eye view into a ton of different industries. Because oftentimes I was like, I didn't even realize. Like, at Avenue, for instance, the editorial team was two people. And I was like, well, who are those 20 people over there? And they're like, sales? And I was like, oh, in my mind, I'm like, editorial was running the magazine, and it was based on how cool our magazine was. And it was like, no sales runs. The magazines and our advertisers are a big piece of what we talk about. And it was really interesting for me to kind of learn that. I was like, oh, okay, got it. So I started to realize, like, maybe I don't want to do editorial. Maybe I'm more marketing and sales. Maybe there's something more here to learn about. So I think internships are hugely beneficial.
- [05:45]
A
You have this ability to be really fluid and sort of your goal setting for yourself.
- [05:51]
B
I also just like to understand how things work. Like, I like to understand where the money goes and where it comes from and how it dictates, you know, how the business operates. And I think if you want to be an entrepreneur or a founder, one thing that you have to do is understand every part, every role. And you kind of have to do every role at that business at some point to make a successful company.
- [06:11]
A
So you're graduating, you had a million jobs, but you end up getting a job off of Craigslist.
- [06:16]
B
Yes.
- [06:16]
A
So I don't even know. Is Craigslist still around?
- [06:18]
B
No, I don't I think it is, and I don't think it serves this purpose anymore. That's where you find your apartments, it's where you find your jobs, like at least back in the day. But I was looking and it said seeking, which I think is pretty illegal now, but it's a seeking female account executive interested in fashion and the Internet. And I'm sure that's illegal. Definitely illegal now. And I was like, oh. By. And I applied and it was for this company called Attention, which now is one of the largest agencies. It was acquired, I believe by wpp, but at the time it was just two guys who started this company together who had Blue Fly as a client. I don't know if you remember Blue Fly.
- [06:48]
A
Blue Fly was kind of a version of the real real.
- [06:50]
B
Like, yes, exactly. It was like, it was like the net a porter meets the real real of like designer goods. And it was like very popular at the time. And so they were like, we have this client, we know nothing about fashion. We need a brain that can kind of come in and help us create these campaigns. And they were at the time what they called a word of mouth marketing agency, which is now what we know as a social media marketing agency. But that didn't exist at the time. Like the ruminations were there of like maybe Twitter and things like that, but no one was really.
- [07:17]
A
No Instagram yet.
- [07:18]
B
Yeah, no Instagram yet. Facebook. But like brands weren't on it yet. And really the founder was very brilliant in that. He was like, we should put brands on Facebook. And so we kind of became this like early to market agency for some of the biggest fashion and beauty brands to get on social media. So our clients were Mac Cosmetics, Estee Lauder, like huge, huge, huge clients. And so I'm 21, 22, getting in these rooms and kind of just like absorbing from the founder how to pitch, how to sell, how to price. And I got like a masterclass in like really running an agency business.
- [07:52]
A
I started my career in the early days of the Internet. And I remember being the person who would give very senior people demos on what the Internet was like, you know, dial up network kind of a thing. And it really is a, is like a moment right when the older generation sees what's coming but isn't familiar. But it does allow you to be in these rooms that you would never have been in otherwise.
- [08:14]
B
So I should also say I had a blog, which is like, sounds so lame now, but like I had a blog called Some Notes on Napkins. I started it in 2004. There was, like, seven people on the Internet, and it was a blog that I would collage inspiration boards and, like, create them and, like, upload them with playlists. So really dating myself here. But it was super popular, and people were really into it, and the editor, Aya Kanai, who at the time was at Teen Vogue, picked it up and wrote about it. And then I was in Elle magazine as, like, these. A top fashion blog. I had this, like, weird Internet cred and understood the community of bloggers and forums and things like that. For instance, we did, like, the Mac Barbie collab, and we were chatting about that launch, and I was like, we should. All these forums have hundreds of Mac artists, like, sharing tips and things like that. We should get on the forum, send it to them early, and get them, like, talking about it and getting feedback and, like, doing again what would be, like, an influencer campaign before they were called influencers. And so at first I was kind of nervous, but then I realized I'm the customer and I know what I like, and I know what the girlies like on the Internet. And so I got to, like, build my confidence early because I was able to really understand something that they didn't.
- [09:29]
A
You had a side hustle before most people had side hustles, and you had this innate confidence. For a lot of people, it is hard to have that confidence, especially when they show up at a new job or a new space. What do you think gave you that confidence? And what advice do you have for people who are sort of just starting out to actually lean into themselves?
- [09:51]
B
Part of it, especially when you're starting out, is a little fake it till you make it. Like, you have to believe in yourself to even get in the room, right? You might not be the expert today, but you can be the expert tomorrow. And I think you have to be willing to put yourself out there with your ideas and get feedback. I'm telling the story on the things that were really amazing and popular that worked, right? But there's also things where maybe it didn't work and it didn't work out, and it didn't work out in that sense, and it wasn't a good idea.
- [10:15]
A
Oh, we want to hear about those. Messy.
- [10:17]
B
Yes, yes, yes, of course. And, like, I mean, that's. That's all the time, right? Like, there's things I did along the line that I, like, definitely messed up on and didn't understand or know or. Or to do. And it took me a while to build that confidence. One of my employees described me as this. And it Always stuck with me because I actually do think it's one of the attributes you need to be successful is she was like, you're relentless. And first I was like, am I offended? But then I was like, no, in order to be successful, like, you really do have to be relentless. And that doesn't mean, like, you're always right and you're pushing forward. It means you're going to mess up, but you're going to keep going.
- [10:50]
A
How do you pick yourself up when you mess up? Right? Because for a lot of people that can be traumatizing to the point of, you know, throwing them off the path.
- [10:59]
B
I think you have to have very few safety nets. And I think for me, I had none. I'm in New York City, I have to pay my rent, I have to make it work, you know. So I think being able to have that pressure, which I think was my initial pressure in my 20s, then it was, I have employees, I have to pay them. And that pressure was very real. To be like, I have to make the money to, you know, cut these checks.
- [11:20]
A
Okay, so you're at attention, you're doing great. There's a moment where you actually hire a friend and get sued.
- [11:26]
B
Okay, so two things. I met a few of my best friends at my first job. I think that's very normal for people in their 20s. You know, you kind of those who.
- [11:32]
A
Go in the office, I just want.
- [11:33]
B
To say, yes, very true, yes. And we like really bonded in the break room, you know, about being like the only women at this like very male dominated agency. I very naively was poached and I don't think I even knew what the meaning of poached was. But essentially an agency called Icrossing, their, you know, CMO reached out to me and was like, we'd love what you've done at attention. We'd love to like bring you over and like build our social media service line. They had clients like Mazda and cvs, huge names. And he's like, oh, and also we're going to double your salary. Which as a 20 something year old in New York is life changing, right? So I couldn't even believe it. And so I took the job. I left. And basically he was like, is there anyone else at the agency you're at that's really talented? And I was like, yeah, my friend Elisa. And Kristen ended up staying, but they poached Elisa, which I didn't realize was essentially now, you know, kind of climbing into this like non compete, non, what is it called? Poaching, like Whatever clause I had signed in my contract, they knew they suing me personally was going to do nothing. I had no money. You're like, here's my $2. But they sued the company, which again could have deterred my employment. But they ended up fighting it and. Or they ended up like going through the court and paying and whatever and they like brought me and Elisa on. But I remember my parents being like, what are you doing in New York? Like what's happening? And I was like, I'm pretty important guys.
- [12:55]
A
I'm being sued.
- [12:55]
B
Yeah, I'm being sued. I've made it. It was definitely a scary time.
- [12:59]
A
At first you said that it was a scary time. How did that manifest itself for you? Were you sleeping?
- [13:04]
B
Yes, I. One thing about me is like I will always sleep. I am a very tired person in general. But I think anxiety manifests in harder work.
- [13:14]
A
Oh, we have that in common.
- [13:15]
B
Yes.
- [13:16]
A
My son always says it's a very good coping mechanism. So you then go work at Pronto, which was like an Amazon kind of company competitor. And what happened there?
- [13:26]
B
So I actually got poached again. So basically IAC was a client of Icrossing and lots of cool different brands at the time, Daily Beast, college humor, et cetera. And I got a really great director level role in the social media marketing side of things and got to work under John Foley, who's the founder of Peloton. And I really loved it. Like you know, I was able to go in and really make an impact. They really believed in me. I was able to do a ton of like social media marketing, but also partnerships and you know, kind of create and merchandise a homepage and work in like a tech esque platform that didn't.
- [14:00]
A
End up working out.
- [14:01]
B
So no. So basically 2009 hit and the recession really was impacting like everyone. Of course layoffs were happening all over the city and I remember John basically saying like, listen, you know, we're probably gonna lay you off. However, there's this role in Los Angeles at citysearch, a company they also own. A company they also own. So. So the west coast office of iac, same job, same title, same everything. Like, would that be of interest to you? Immediately I was like, absolutely not. Like I'm not going to la. And he was like, I think you'd be a big fish in a small pond and I think you could do really well there. Go and just like see. So I went and like I. My one of my old friends at nyu, I stayed with her and we went to coach and it was like, maybe I do like it here, and ended up moving, you know, was kind of ready for a change and. Yeah. Then ended up 16 years in Los Angeles.
- [14:54]
A
Wow.
- [14:55]
B
I know.
- [14:55]
A
So you go to citysearch, it's basically kind of like an online timeout magazine city guide, and you're like a fish out of water.
- [15:03]
B
Yeah. It did not work out. So I got there, and this is right around when, like, Yelp was launching, which was a competitor. And so I was like, we gotta get ahead of Yelp. And, like, one of the things that citysearch had, which I thought was, like, really special, was these editors that were, like, essentially tastemakers and curators of, like, here's the top 10 places to eat. That was like, a really sought after, highly clicked thing. And I was like, we should make them influential. Like, we should put them out more and, like, do more stuff around them. Like, spotlight them more lists. And they were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. They were like, just. If you could just, like, put this spreadsheet of local news together, that would be great. And I was like, oh, you don't want ideas. Like, you actually want to kind of live in this very, like, specific universe of just doing the status quo. But it was just kind of this environment that did not like innovation. They did not like fast workers. They did not like anything like that.
- [15:53]
A
When I was at Turner Broadcasting, or maybe it was Univision, I can't remember, somebody said to me, why are you working so much? You're making the rest of us look bad.
- [16:01]
B
I think that was definitely the energy. I think there was also this kind of. How do I say this? Like, there was definitely this like, weird energy around me. Specifically. I was brought in from this New York office. I was brought in directly by the CEO. And I think there was a lot of people who were definitely threatened by me. And I think there was that kind of, like, old. That old female energy around, like, there's only room for one of us.
- [16:26]
A
Well, what does that mean? Why is that female energy?
- [16:28]
B
Because the person who said it to.
- [16:30]
A
Me was a man.
- [16:31]
B
Yes. Okay. So my experience has been. And I don't think it's their fault or there's anything wrong with that. It was this idea that, like, getting to the top of, like, VP at, like, this, you know, these bigger public companies or whatever was really hard to do as a woman. And I think there wasn't the energy around. Let's build each other up. Let's help each other out. It was very much like, I worked really hard to get here and now you need to work really hard to get here. And like, I'm gonna gatekeep a little bit of like the information so I can maintain my power. And I think like, for the guys, I feel like they just never sweated it because they like always knew that there was gonna be like more opportunity, more boys club, more whatever it might be.
- [17:07]
A
So if somebody's experiencing that kind of political experience, what advice would you have for them?
- [17:12]
B
Oh, I mean, it's so hard. Honestly, I wish I had the answer because it literally made me quit and start my company. So I don't know if that's the right an. But I think it was like, I think you have to be the squeaky wheel. And I think like I was just kind of like when people told me to like quiet down, slow down, I kind of was like, had an attitude about it. And I think that's why I eventually was fired was because I was resistant to it. I just didn't want it. One of the things that really was a game changer for me was the four hour work week, which was like Tim Ferriss first book. And I read that while I was like. I think it was like maybe right after I got laid off. And it was really eye opening. It was like, do you feel like you get more done than the average person? Do you feel like you're clocking in the hours at your 9 to 5 just to be there from 9 to 5 because you have to be. Do you feel like you're getting stifled because you're moving too fast? And all these things that super resonated with me coming right off of that experience where I was like, maybe I'm better as an entrepreneur, maybe I'm better on my own. And it was the first time that light bulb had gone off because I had a lot of identity crisis after getting fired. Because I'd always been the girl, the career girl. Well, the one who excelled exact. And so being fired or let go or whatever was not part of the narrative I was like building. And so I.
- [18:25]
A
Well, so let's pause on that, right? Because that obviously had to felt terrible.
- [18:28]
B
Oh, it was awful. I literally. And also I just moved cities. Like, I was only three months into Los Angeles. So I was like three months in, got laid off. I had like, no friends. I was like, this is awful. And I was super depressed. I remember there was like a moment where I was like, do I become a yoga instructor? Like, I was having a full crisis of like, I don't know what to do.
- [18:46]
A
I'm trying to see you as a yoga instructor.
- [18:48]
B
It would not have worked out either. But it was funn because I was also applying for jobs and not getting any calls because all of the jobs in Los Angeles were entertainment and gaming, which I had no experience in. I was like startups, fashion, beauty, et cetera. That didn't really exist in Los Angeles at the time. So it was like, not only was I dealing with, like, this rejection, but I was also getting doubly rejected on the job front side.
- [19:11]
A
Okay, so we know lots of people who either get laid off or fired. What advice would you give somebody who's going through that?
- [19:18]
B
Yeah, I definitely would say, like, rejection is redirection. I fully believe that I would have never started a company had I not gotten laid off. I would. I don't think I would have ever left the corporate cushion of like, no, I'm gonna go start my own thing. I just don't think it would have done it. I started freelancing and then I ended up, like, getting so busy I needed another person. So I brought on a first employee, and then I met my future business partner. We got an office together. It was just like one thing led to another. So I think it can be disheartening, but I think, you know, at the end of the day, it's all meant to be.
- [19:48]
A
So then you start your own business and walk us through that journey.
- [19:52]
B
So started my first company, like, truly by accident. It was called no Subject. It was a marketing, you know, social media marketing agency, essentially an events company with a business partner. And it was just like. I don't even know like, how it happened, but essentially I got asked to speak at Project, which is the largest fashion trade show. It's like part of magic. Like, a lot of people know magic. And I was on the panel and the president at Project at the time was like, hey, I want you to be our director of marketing afterwards. And I was like, like, no, hire my agency, which did not exist. And he was like, fly to New York and pitch me. And so I went to my business partner at the time. We're like, we need to start a company. We have to fly to New York and we have to pitch them. And so literally, we, like legal zoomed a company, an llc, and put it together. Flew to New York and got our first client. It was $10,000 a month, which was incredible for us at the time. And the rest was history. It was like a learn as you go building your business on the fly type of thing. And I was lucky. I had my mom because obviously she has run businesses, been, you know, been a small business owner for a long time who was like, you gotta do this. You gotta set the QuickBooks up. You gotta be reporting that. So she was able to really like support and help along the way.
- [20:56]
A
She was like your other partner in essence always.
- [20:59]
B
I always joke, like even in my book, to my unofficial co founder, because even when I was like selling, create and cultivate for like multi millions private equity, blah, blah, I remember like the private equity firm being like, who's Joanne? Like 3377 on the QuickBooks account. I was like, it's my mom. If you could leave her there. It means a lot to her to like be on the crazy QuickBooks. And like, they were like, what? I was like, listen. But yeah, she's the best. And like, definitely has been like a rock for me in building businesses.
- [21:25]
A
What do you think didn't stop you when they offered you the job and you turned it into a business because, you know, somebody else might have been like, all right, you know, security.
- [21:34]
B
I definitely thought about it, but something in me was like, I think I can do this on my own. I felt very much the momentum at that time. Like, people are interested in what we're doing. People want to be a part of it. Like, why not risk it?
- [21:50]
A
As you were telling the story, I was thinking to myself, how are you able to push fear aside?
- [21:56]
B
I think you have to again, I think I was at the place where I had nothing to lose in a way. So I was like, I had this severance, I had momentum, I had this excitement around it and I knew I could do a good job. I also understood agencies and so like City Search, obviously being, you know, in house was great and fine, but I was like, I was craving that, like, agency, lots of different brand type of experience. And so I just kind of like, what's the worst that could happen? It fails, you shut it down. Who cares? Like, what's next? You know, like, you can figure it out.
- [22:30]
A
But there should be fear somewhere in there.
- [22:32]
B
Of course. Like, I think there is fear for sure, but I think you have to like, fight past it. Certain people operate really well in high stakes environments. I operate very well under high stakes. I operate very well under pressure. So I think like, fear almost is like a driving force for me more than it is a deterrent.
- [22:48]
A
Okay, so now you're actually doing your own agency and a project from that lends you into now having two companies.
- [22:56]
B
Yes.
- [22:56]
A
Because you know, one's not enough.
- [22:58]
B
Yes, no, exactly. And honestly, I didn't even think of it as a company for a couple years until it became bigger and bigger and bigger. But essentially, the Ace Hotel in Palm Springs, like, reached out to us and was like, we're having a hard time selling rooms on the weekdays. Can you guys come up with a cool event or a program or whatever? Whatever. And so we were like, okay, who can go to Palm Springs on, like, a Tuesday? And this is like, no one worked from home. Like, everyone went to an office, and we're like, creative freelancers. Like, you know, creatives, essentially. And so we did this, like, creator getaway. Create and cultivate at the Ace Hotel, where it was basically, like, at the time, the idea behind it was part entrepreneurship and talking to entrepreneurs and part, like. And I feel like this was very big at the time, but, like, diy. So it was like. Like, potting succulents and, like, you know, painting, whatever. And, like, it sold out. And again, it sold out. It was 25 people. It's like, nothing crazy, but it was like people were interested and, like, wanted to go. And so it became. And we were so broke. Like, we had no money doing this. I remember.
- [23:53]
A
But you had a client.
- [23:54]
B
Yes, but the client was Ace, and they were giving us everything for free, but they weren't paying us.
- [24:00]
A
Oh.
- [24:01]
B
So we were. They were like, you can monetize the event however you want. So we were like, we'll sell tickets and we'll get sponsored. But I remember my friend Melissa, who's an amazing, you know, now is at VRE and doing amazing stuff, but she was the head of PR at Levi's, and she's like, well, how can, like, Levi's be involved? And Levi's was, like, the coolest brand. I mean, it still is. It's like Levi's leads culture in a lot of ways. And I was like. I was like, yeah, well, we're actually doing this, like, creatives dinner. She's like, yeah, we'll sponsor it. And I was like, okay, cool. Like, how much? You know? She's like, how much you want? I was like, I don't know, like, $3,000? She's like, yeah, I can. I can do $3,000. And I was like, great. I was like, like, you're the presenting sponsor. She's like, okay. And I was like. So we literally branded as, like, Levi's Presents crate and cultivate. And everyone's like, what is this event? And, like, we, like, put Levi's everywhere, and everyone, like, all these cool people came and spoke because, like, they wanted to be associated with Levi's. And like, I knew the value of aligning our brand with a brand like Levi's. Cut to the next one. It was like so much inbound for sponsorship because everyone wanted to be doing what Levi's was doing. So it really ended up working out.
- [24:59]
A
So how many years from that to when creating Cultivate really takes off?
- [25:02]
B
So that was 2011. And so basically we run it as a side project for four years and it really just keeps building momentum. The Next one was 50 people. The next one was a hundred people, 150 people, 300 people. And it's like making money, but like nothing crazy. Like, you know, it's almost like break even making money. But I was like, oh, this is a new business tool to get clients. So, you know, whoever's sponsoring can then become a client of no Subject. And so I was lucky that I had a lot of friends at Cool Brands at that time, you know, who were all in the come up, like kind of same range as me, like you know, 20, 24. Ish. And one of my.
- [25:40]
A
I just want to pause that. Like 24. This is happening to you at 24?
- [25:44]
B
Yes, yes. Yeah, I know it was very like 24, 25. Super young. But I remember one of my friends was Jen Rubio, who now is the founder of Away, but at the time was running social media for Warby Parker and was like, warby Parker will sponsor. So we kind of became this like cool it girl brand because of like all the of relationships I had had. It wasn't until 2016 or and maybe it was end of 2015 that I brought on a partner for Crate and Cultivate. And so that partner is Raina Panchansky. She is and was like the founder of dba. So DBA is digital brand architects. It was the first agency ever to represent influencers as talent. I had known them for a long time. So I was like client number two at dba because some notes on napkins, like my, my blog and they're like, well, maybe we buy no Subject. Cause at the time they had like a little bit of an agen. And I was like, okay, yeah, let's talk about it.
- [26:36]
A
Did you have a partner for no Subject?
- [26:37]
B
I did at the beginning, but she left soon after, like within a year. So it was just me at the time.
- [26:42]
A
But you had one partner where it got messy.
- [26:44]
B
That's the one. Yeah. So she long. Long story short, but we were both like very young starting this company. She had her own events business at the time. I had My own social media marketing company. We came together. There was some financial issues, like, that had been kind of happening, and I had found out about. And basically.
- [27:02]
A
Or your mom, who did the best?
- [27:04]
B
Truly, my mom. Who? And my mom. And at that time, it was like, she ran all the financials, I ran all the creative. So it was a really good lesson in, like, you have to be involved in everything in your business, and you have to understand the numbers and be obsessed with the numbers. And so I was able to kind of learn a lot from that specific lesson, bring it into, like, my next companies. For sure. It was a pretty bad business partner breakup because of what had happened. But we left. I had a moment where I was like, do I just fold all of this and, like, do something else? Cause I was pretty heartbroken about it.
- [27:33]
A
Let's talk about that, right? Cause I had a partner. I started a bag business. And our first customer was Barney's. Things were great. We take a press photo with the guy who's pretty well known. He's packing up, and she says, I got into Harvard so you can be in business with my mom while I go to school. And I was like, should I cut off my arm? Like, why didn't you say that before the picture? I mean, like, I loved actually doing it with someone else. I didn't really want to be in business by myself.
- [27:57]
B
Same.
- [27:58]
A
But that was devastating.
- [27:59]
B
It was really hard, personally and professionally. I think personally, because our friend groups had merged. There was a real betrayal of, like, what had happened. And I think at the end of the day, I knew I had to, you know, say something and do the. Go through the process and do the thing. And we had employees, which was also really hard. I had to tell all of our clients. But it became like this me versus everyone else kind of scenario where I lost a lot of friends because they were like, like, why are you doing this? Like, why are you tearing apart our friend group?
- [28:27]
A
Blah, blah.
- [28:27]
B
And I was, like, trying to explain the real consequences of, like, what had actually happened and why it wasn't okay. And it's still, like, even when the settlement happened and it was like, I clearly got the company. I got majority of the clients. I gave her back her clients, obviously.
- [28:41]
A
Yeah, take them.
- [28:42]
B
Yeah, take them. And it was hard. I was like, I've lost my friends now. I have this business on my own. And it felt like extremely isolating.
- [28:49]
A
How long from that to where you sold that business?
- [28:52]
B
I think it was four years after.
- [28:53]
A
So a while.
- [28:54]
B
A while. It was like, right around that time, like, I went on anti anxiety meds, but I was having. I would have panic attacks all the time.
- [29:00]
A
Okay, so well, let's talk about that because earlier on you're like, no, I just push through and work a lot. But now it begins to manifest itself in ways that are not so easy to just push aside.
- [29:11]
B
It was always nice to have someone else in it with me. And I think I could always like, you know, talk to that person about how I was feeling because they were feeling it too, or they were going through the same things. When you lose that very suddenly and still have the same amount of work, if not double, because they're gone now. I felt an overwhelming sense of stress and I was working like crazy and I'd also lost all my friends. So it was just like a combination of things that I felt like I almost couldn't get above water to get it done. I did.
- [29:42]
A
But how did you.
- [29:44]
B
You. I think it was just like, I got it. It was just so much hard work. Like I would say from 23, like 23, 24 on till 36, 37. I just was heads down working, like to a very unhealthy degree. But I was happy, I was enjoying it. Like, it wasn't that I was like miserable and busy. It was like the momentum was there. I was having success, I was creating things. So it is this hard balance. When I got on medication for it and whenever I felt such a sense of relief, like, you know, in general, and then I was like able to like kind of control it and be fine. And it was definitely specific to this, like three month period of stress.
- [30:26]
A
You sell your PR company.
- [30:28]
B
Yes.
- [30:28]
A
And lean into, create and cultivate.
- [30:31]
B
It was really kind of a weird, interesting time. But essentially Raina was like, we should do this together. Create and cultivate. Like, let's figure it out. And I was like, yeah, let's try it. What's there to lose? And she wanted to like start a company immediately. And I was like, no, let's do it as like, like a one off project. You know, we'll do a rev share, we'll figure it out. And we did it that event and it was hugely successful. And it was kind of like a runaway train at that point. I was like, oh, this is something that's like really taking off.
- [30:55]
A
Big signal.
- [30:56]
B
Big signal. So we, you know, launched the company, built it as a real business. We both invested our own money into it, made our first hire. And so at that point, I'm running both companies. The company that ended up buying my company was small Girls pr. This girl Mallory, who's awesome, she was the founder and years prior to starting creating cultite, she was like, I think we should like merge or like become partners or figure it out. She was essentially the east coast version of what we were doing at no subject. And I was like, yeah, let's do it. And her company was definitely ahead of mine. Like, she had 30 employees, huge clients. So then she came back and was like, all right, let's do this. And I was like, oh. I was like, I kind of started this other company.
- [31:32]
A
Now I have two companies.
- [31:33]
B
Two companies. It's like weird. And she was like, okay, well, we have to open on the west coast. So I threw out an idea of like, okay, like you take over the west coast office. You know, basically you can make me an offer and I'll walk away from Craig and Coles. Because at that point it was like very small and starting. Or I can be part time and like train someone or hire someone or we can figure out. I could just do biz dev. I think, like in her head she was sort of like, yeah, like, let's do it. And so basically acquired the company, took it over, and then essentially was like, you have to do your full time thing for a year. Like you can't go anywhere. And I did that. And you know, it was challenging for sure. I was working like 200 hour weeks.
- [32:08]
A
Like, is this when you got married and bought a house?
- [32:11]
B
Yes. And I knew, I was like, this can't continue. And so after the year was up, she. They made me an offer, I declined it. And then I went full time at Create and Cultivate.
- [32:19]
A
When did you know Create and Cultivate was like a real thing, that it wasn't just a break even project.
- [32:23]
B
So after the first event in 2016, the momentum was crazy. It was unreal. Clients I would have killed to have at no subject were emailing me, like, how do we work with you? And so I was like, there's something here. And I think I have to capitalize on this momentum because there's something very real about it. One of my clients at NoSubject was like, I was talking to him about it. I was like, you know, I'm just trying to figure out what to do. And he was like, you do all this cool stuff for other brands, like, do it for your own brand. And it kind of really resonated with me. I was like, yeah, like, you're right. This is my opportunity to build like my own thing. And so I took the leap. I never looked back.
- [32:59]
A
Most People think of events as not great margin businesses, but you sold the company for $22 million.
- [33:05]
B
That was $22 million valuation. Covid valuation. So our valuation was close to 75 million in 2019, which is devastating to think about. But, no, we. We had really good margins. We had 50% margins on every single event that we did. And that was really because of a few different things. One is, like, we did everything in house, which was amazing because you have a ton of creative control. You have a lot of flexibility. You create amazing relationships with your vendors because you're direct. You're not, like, through an agency, which is going to be a 20% markup on top of. And we were also working with small companies that were also building their brands. Their businesses grew massive alongside ours. But we always were like the core team of, like, how do we build the most creative, cool thing for all of us? Right? Because when the florals are really cool and people see them, they're going to want to hire that florist. And if the video footage is really cool and unique, they're going to want to hire that team. So we knew it was all good for us to do something unique.
- [34:01]
A
What I'm taking away from the story at this point is team.
- [34:04]
B
Yes.
- [34:05]
A
And community and support and women. Like, where are the men in the story? All of a sudden, they've all left.
- [34:09]
B
They're all gone. It was around the Me Too time where all my employees were women. And we did a lot of editorial at that time, and we're like, if anyone feels comfortable, would you be open, sharing? Have any of you experienced that? And all the women who were 30 and older said yes. And all the women who were like, 20, 20 to 25 said no. And I was like, you've only been around women in, like, a working environment. And everyone we work with is women. Like, the attendees are women, the caterers are women. Like, and I was like, what a utopia. You know, how amazing. But, yeah, it was definitely interesting. Like, very, very rarely did we ever work with men.
- [34:44]
A
So I'm gonna take you back to that environment where it was like, there's only room for me, the only woman at citysearch, to an experience where you're all coming up together. It's almost like you've created this kitchen cabinet and you're all rising together.
- [34:57]
B
Well, I think what had happened at that time, too, because I think a lot about create and cultivate also was timing. And so it was kind of this, like, perfect, weird storm where it was like, wait, I think if we all just get together and talk to each other. There's actually more power than working against each other.
- [35:14]
A
Why did you sell?
- [35:16]
B
We had offers in 2018 to sell and those were really exciting offers for a few different reasons. One was I was highly energized in 2018. We had a ton of momentum and the people interested in buying us were very cool, strategic company. So, you know, Refinery 29 or POPSUGAR, you know, things like that. And that felt really cool and really exciting and the right move and then that fell apart for various reasons. 2019, we have our best year ever. Q1 2020, we do 5 million in revenue. We're on track to do 25 million in revenue. We're highly profitable. We're like a well oiled machine at this point. And so top of 2020 we have a bunch of offers from people. We're about to go down the road of diligence. You know, again, these are like 50 to 75 million dollars acquisition offers. My life is gonna change. I'm exhausted. I've been running at 150 miles an hour. Still married, 10 plus years. Still married, barely. And a lot of my net worth at that point is tied up in this too. I'm not taking a massive paycheck at that point. I'm really trying to build this profitable business to sell. And then Covid hits and it's devastating of course for a million different reasons. One is the world and what was happening. Two is that that we're an events business and so in real life and all those offers go away overnight. And three is like, what's going to happen to my business? Like what, what do I do now? Like. And also it was the time period where it was like, we're going to flatten the curve and you know, whatever. And you're like, is this going to be, are we going to do events in April? Are we going to do events in May? Are we never doing events again? Big mess, big mess. And so basically like I was like, I think like small business owners went one of two ways. One is like they kind of shut down emotionally, mentally and like, like the other was like overdrive. And you just went into like ideation, like we gotta move fast. And that's how I was. I was like, we're pivoting to digital. We have a built in membership. We already had. We're launching our first virtual event in May, which was very quick. We were like the first people to do virtual events. Adweek wrote about it, LA Times wrote about it. We were like, we're going to team up with postmates. We're going to become a delivery service for female founders doing ppe. We pivoted hard and fast and very successfully. And I was exhausted. I was emotionally exhausted. I was, you know, sad about what had happened. It was a combination of things. And I also felt very creatively depleted by the end of it. I wasn't excited anymore. I was really depressed, to be honest. Like, everything I had built had changed. The world had changed. I didn't know when it was coming back. I didn't have the excitement I had around the company, but I was, like, pushing through on all, firing on all cylinders.
- [37:51]
A
$22 million is still $22 million.
- [37:53]
B
Exactly. And so. So basically, at the end of the year, private equity came knocking, and it was not ever my first choice, you know, but at the end of the day, it's an exit for the business. And I had a number in my head. I was very firm about it with, like, our banker who was doing the deal. She got me the number. She's like, if I get you the number, will you sell? And I was like, yeah. And I was very honest with the P firm. I was like, I. I'm burnt to a crisp, like, and I'm also not the right CEO anymore if we're going to become a digital media company. And they were fine with that, so. But I stayed on for seven months after I found a new CEO and then I stepped down.
- [38:24]
A
You've been running hard, and you get to this point where you can breathe and there's so much more we could cover, but you come back in and you end up buying the company after you sort of take a break and you're going again and doing, by the way, I'm going to say three businesses, not just one. You've even reimagined, create and cultivate. I love that you're having Dochi headline. It's like, like, now a Coachella for business women. I want to actually ask you a couple of pretty specific things because, you know, I do research and ask you a lot of different questions. What is a career myth that you think we get told that you would now say is bullshit?
- [38:58]
B
I think this idea that, like, you have to, like, work your way up in, like, one job, I think that's, like, completely gone away. I think, like, I remember when people were like, oh, you've been jumping around. Don't jump around jobs too much. No one cares. Like, I actually genuinely think no one cares if you're good at your job. And you are a Hard worker and a pleasure to work with. Like, you'll always find work. Just be the best you could be at your job.
- [39:21]
A
I love that. What's something you did that you would never do again?
- [39:26]
B
Oh, God. I mean, I think, like bootstrap a business. I think, like, I. It was the right thing to do at the time. It ended up working out, but it was extremely challenging. And I think think I never was taught and I don't think women are often never taught to leverage other people's cash. That's not available to everyone, obviously, especially at the beginning. But it's something you have to learn over time as you're trying to build your own wealth.
- [39:48]
A
I love that lesson. That's a good one. What's something you would tell your younger self?
- [39:53]
B
Don't be so hard on yourself.
- [39:55]
A
What would you tell somebody to do before they're 35?
- [39:57]
B
I would tell them to diversify. Like, diversify where your cash is coming from. People often think all my money came from creating, cultivate. It didn't. Like, like I was an angel investor, friends and family investor in away luggage for $10,000 when I was 24, broke, didn't even have $10,000. I wrote the check through my company and I exited for seven figures on that. Don't think the only way you're gonna be making money is through your job.
- [40:21]
A
You know, you said this thing about how you had to learn the numbers the hard way when you had that split. A lot of women have a fear of numbers or money. How did you get over that?
- [40:30]
B
One of the things that I'm really, like, bullish on is women having transparent conversations about money, which is why I talk about exactly how much I made, exactly how much my salary was. Because I think there's been a lot of, like, oh, you know, we don't talk about that, but, like, men talk about this all the time. And so some of the things that I've learned have been through, like, women in my life who have been like, you shouldn't pay cash for a house. You should leverage the cash you have in the bank and get a loan and then get that loan and then refinance. Like, things I would never know. But I'm like, you're 10 steps ahead of me, and so I can learn from you. And I think that's the kind of information like, we have to pass down.
- [41:00]
A
Well, thank you so much for coming on. Like I said, there was way more than we could just have delved into. You were as amazing as Katie Stino said she was.
- [41:08]
B
I'm glad I delivered.
- [41:09]
A
She was the first couch visitor.
- [41:10]
B
I love Katie, so thanks again.
- [41:13]
A
I really appreciate it.
- [41:14]
B
Yay. That was so fun.
- [41:15]
A
Thanks for making it to the end of the podcast. Don't forget to subscribe, write a review like and tell ten friends.