← The Messy Parts
The Messy Parts
Cindi Leive: Reinvention, Resilience, and Rewriting the Rules of Women’s Media
00:39:40
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- [00:00]
A
I wish someone had said to me very clearly at the beginning, there probably is no one right way to do it. Number two, don't spend so much time trying to get it to be perfect before you go out with it. There are so many decisions that you have to make as, you know, an entrepreneur. Like, how do you want to structure your company? What's the business model? How do you define the market? I now tell people, like, get it to a place where, like, you feel like you can answer questions, but, like, then just go out and start pitching it to people and you will learn from those knows you know more than you can learn just sitting there, like, working on your deck and working on your. Your business model.
- [00:43]
B
We had a great conversation with Cindy Levy. She was the longtime editor at Glamour, a fashion magazine. And what's interesting about her is at the top of her game, she decided to try something different. She left the corporate world at Conde Nasty and started a collective, her own entrepreneurial venture. And what's interesting about that is that it's really messy, but messy in a different way than the corporate world. And so she talks about what she learned about collaborating, about working with the younger generation in a much smaller environment with limited resources. Something I can tell you, I know about. So you're gonna wanna listen to Cindy and hear her story and her tips. So, Cindy, I can't thank you enough for coming on the podcast.
- [01:26]
A
Thank you.
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B
As you know, this podcast is called the Messy Parts. And so we're gonna dig right in.
- [01:30]
A
I'll just spill my coffee right down the front of my blouse, but that's a good place to start.
- [01:35]
B
So we're gonna be authentic about the whole thing.
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A
I'm in, turn.
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B
So, you know, you have had a storied career already and forget the chapters that are yet to come, but you wanted to be a journalist from when you were 8 or 10. And then you had this incredible path, Glamour, self, and now Meteor. There had to have been messy parts, right? It wasn't just, I feel like the.
- [01:55]
A
Whole thing is mess.
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B
Are you sure?
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A
Yes, I said that's pretty perfect. Smoke and mirrors. No, I feel like. I feel like it's kind of. It's sort of all mess, but. Sorry, I interrupted you. You were having a question.
- [02:06]
B
Well, I actually think, like. So if I think about it, you started a magazine in your neighborhood, then you went to college, you know, Paris Review, great brands, you know, Conde. Like, was there messy parts in that journey that seemed like a hockey stick to the right?
- [02:21]
A
Oh, totally. I mean, first of all, like, I I don't think I actually knew what a job in magazines was. I knew that I loved magazines. And so, you know, you referenced 17. Like, when I. This is so dorky. But when I was little and I had a subscription to 17, I was probably like, you know, 12 or whatever. I would literally run down the street to my mailbox on the day that I knew it was gonna come. Because it was like this lifeline to the world outside of my Virginia town. And I can still remember exactly, like, what some of those layouts were like. And, you know, but I didn't understand that there were people who had jobs like making thing happen. Because this was like before, you know, reality tv, the Internet, blah, blah, blah. Like, I just had no clue there were names on a masthead, but I didn't know what they did. And so it was only, like, when I was in college that I actually started to understand what some of those jobs might be. But I thought I was gonna go back to school and get a PhD in English lit because I had a professor who I really admired who had said that I should do that. And I was like, okay, I guess I'll do that. And when I started working, it was just gonna be like, oh, I'll do for a year, and, you know, then I'll go do the important work of my life.
- [03:29]
B
Your mom was a scientist. Did you ever think about going into stem?
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A
Oh, my God, no. I mean, that's a terrible thing to say because she's incredible.
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B
That was a very strong reaction.
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A
She's an incredible. She was an incredible role model to me. But no, she would come home from work and she would be talking excitedly about, like, lipopolysaccharides and what happened in the centrifuge that day.
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B
I like that you even know that word.
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A
Cell membranes. I know how to spell it. Cause I was like, English major girl, but no idea really what they were. And I assume still are anyway. But the thing that I picked up on that from that was not like, stem is the thing, but it's just really good to have something that you are so excited about to do all day that you want to come home and talk about it over the dinner table. And so that kind of like, just passion for finding something to do that you can actually get paid for doing that lights you up like that. That was the thing.
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B
So that was something that was like in your household or in the water somehow for you.
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A
Yeah, I think just like a love of work. And I later kind of came to understand how much my mom had probably sacrificed, like because she was raising me as a mostly single mom and you know, she was working as a woman at the NIH in, you know, microbiology and was one of the few women there and nobody really had kids. And so for her trying to do this balance, like to work all day in this consuming role and still be back at like she was home at like, you know, 6 or 6:30 to, you know, make dinner for me every night. Like that was a lot. And I think there were probably a lot of like, you know, promotions and growth and you know, awards and honors that she gave up so that she could do that. But I didn't really see any of that growing up. It was that I had sort of learned as an adult.
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B
I was going to ask you about that, like were there. So you talk about having a single mom and she was juggling all these things, as all moms do. Yeah, but you don't mention the messy parts of that really. Cause for you it was almost like it wasn't on display.
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A
I didn't really see the mess there. I didn't. I mean, it's partly because as a kid you're like incredibly self centered. So you're just like, what does this mean for me? And I didn't really have that distance now as an adult. I mean, my mom died when I was 19 so I haven't had that benefit that I think like, you know, a lot of adult women have when they start doing the juggling themselves of saying to their moms if their moms worked, like, wait, what? How did you do this? And what was messy? And you know, what balls were you dropping? And help generally, like, I just, you know, I haven't had those conversations with her but from talking to her friends I know that like there was mess. But she also was very like, what's the right word? She was incredibly forthright and so, you know, just straightforward and not given to like really thinking about, you know, I don't want to say she wasn't thinking about her interior life, but she was just like, here's a challenge, I'm going to go solve it. She was incredibly cheerful. She was very math and science oriented. So I think she just saw everything as like a problem that could be solved.
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B
You're curious and optimistic and I think one of the things that you say is that you don't look at the past, you look forward. And in some ways as you're describing your mom, you're kind of describing her.
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A
Yeah, I think I aspire to that. You know, a Lot of people have wrestled with various forms of, like, insecurity. Whether you call that, like, imposter syndrome, whether you call that just sort of, like, a lack. The lack of confidence that so many of us have to get over. And I never saw that in my mom, so I definitely, like, aspire to that. She may have been, like, quaking in her shoes under it all, but I never saw that. And I think she just. I think she just had a lot of faith in her abilities or she.
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B
Was really good at compartmentalizing.
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A
Yeah, maybe. Maybe. I mean, that's a. That's a skill.
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B
I mean, I'm pretty good at compartmentalizing. I think that's how I get through the messy parts. But. Yeah, but, you know, we sort of have to pause. Right. Because you lost your mom at 19. That's a pivotal, rather messy thing.
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A
It is messy.
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B
Right. I lost my dad. I think I was, like, 17 or 18. I mean, those are seminal things.
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A
Totally. I mean, do you feel like that had just this sort of, like, you know, thumbprint effect on your life?
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B
I mean, it had to have. Right. But I was so good at compartmentalizing that I was able to sort of shove it aside. But I definitely think it had to. Right. But I think, like, you. I'm really focused on, like, okay, what's the problem I'm solving? What's the. Instead of seeing it as an obstacle, it's like an obstacle course. So then I'm just moving through.
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A
Right.
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B
In some ways, the moving through allows you not to process all of that. I mean, I remember being in college and them sending me to a therapist. And my thinking, like, what's happening here?
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A
Totally. I remember there was this. Now I realize, in retrospect, very nice woman who I went to college with, who, when she heard that my mom had died, started inviting me to this grief group that I guess students who had lost their parents were holding. And I was like, no. I mean, I literally. If I saw her coming on a path at my very small college campus, I would turn away so I didn't have to walk past her. I'd like to apologize to her right now. Cause that is a very evolved thing that I should have done. But at the time, I was like, I'm just, like, moving forward. I'm gonna get the jobs. I'm gonna get the grades. Like, that's how I'm coping. That's the thing. Oh, it's a total thing.
- [08:53]
B
Because I remember I went one session. I mean, therapy wasn't a thing in my childhood. Growing up I went to one session and she said, when you're ready to talk about it, come back. There's no point in you coming back otherwise. And I was like, great, yeah, move on. Next problem to solve.
- [09:06]
A
Exactly. I'm solved. I'm healthy. I have no grief.
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B
We're not going to be talking about this. No.
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A
I mean, it took to realize that, like, one of the things that losing my mom early had kind of trained me to do was be like rigorously self sufficient, which is not a wholly bad thing, but definitely not a wholly good thing either. Like I remember, I. Okay, like just a couple of stories that like, kind of crystallized this for me. I would try to pay for everything myself. Like, as a. My mom was 19 when I died. There were plenty of people who wanted to, like, treat me to things, take me to things, like, help me out with things. And I was like, uh, I got this. And I remember going to dinner with a friend and her family and her father for like a family occasion. They had invited me along and at the end of the meal, I took this like crumpled, sweaty $10 bill out of my pocket and tried to pay her father with it. And I was like, Dr. Berman, can I pay my way? And you know, this guy's like a dentist happening. Yeah. It's like, no, no, I'm good. And I was. I just thought, okay. I didn't realize at the time that like, I could allow people to like, help me or support me or take care of me, you know.
- [10:18]
B
So you worked at Conde. We all have watched Devil Wears Prada. I think they're remaking that. I'm not sure. But, you know, that had to have been a tough place to work. And in some ways, as you're describing sort of your resilience that you sort of were forced to develop and maybe it's also genetic. I don't know. We can have a nurture nature conversation. Maybe that helped you in an environment.
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A
Like, I think it did. Like, I mean, first of all, like I said, being self sufficient and being independent, which I was probably predisposed to anyway as like a Gen X kid, I was like, give me the house keys and I can do everything else. You know, I was proud of being independent. That gives you the ability to like, get things done. I was, you know, I felt like I went into the work world relatively. I mean, despite those comments about imposter syndrome, which I definitely felt at various along the way, I was pretty confident and pretty determined also to, like, if I didn't know how to do something to figure out how to get it done. And I also think, like, that world of magazines at the time, for better and sometimes for worse, really encouraged you to, like, do it yourself. Don't collaborate with other people. You know, it wasn't like a team environment where I think we now think.
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B
Of workplaces as very command and control.
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A
He was very command and control. And I remember one of my bosses, CEO at the time, had said to me, I think the most important two words that an editor in chief can say are I think. Meaning, like, I think we should do this, I think we should do that. Like, I know my opinion, and, you know, that's how we're gonna go. And that was sort of like what the image of an editor in chief was. And so, I mean, I didn't become an editor in chief until, like, farther along in my career. But I do think that sense of, like, you know, I'm gonna get owning your voice really strongly owning your voice and kind of like, believing in your own personal vision and getting it done, like, that was something that I think I was sort of, like, inclined to. And of course, there is a, like, not good side to that, which is that to get anything done well and to enjoy work and to learn. Cause you don't know everything, you have to be willing to ask for advice.
- [12:30]
B
Okay, this is so interesting. So you have a storied career at Glamour. Well, really at Conde, because you do Glamour. Then you go turnaround self, which, you know, turnaround is no small. And then you go back and sort of, you know, rain Glamour, you know, with incredible success and doing things like Woman of the year, which I definitely want to dig into. But then you leave. What made you leave?
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A
I mean.
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B
Cause you clearly loved that job.
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A
I had been there so long, and the business had changed so much. And, you know, like anybody I had had to let a lot of people go. And that's, like, really hard.
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B
About what year was this?
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A
Well, I left at the beginning of 2018. And so the media. The media business had really had really changed. And also, it was just. It was time, and it was time for someone else to do the job, and it was time for me to do something else.
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B
And we all know that people stay in jobs, as we've learned, particularly these last few years, until they keel over. So, I mean, you didn't do that. I'm not commenting on anything. I'm just saying it's very hard for people in power to pass the baton. Yeah, but you are describing a situation where you did that.
- [13:37]
A
Well, I think I Also felt that there was a lot going on in the world that was going in a direction that I wanted to be part of. Right. So this is, like, you know, 2017 was, like, the first year of Trump's first presidency. It was the Women's March. It was me, too. And I think so many women were, like, waking up to this idea that, like, oh, we really have to, like, raise our voices and make change. Like, the world is just not going to automatically evolve. We have to make it evolve. And so there was this sort of, like, rise of activism. And I don't think I knew exactly what I wanted to do to be part of that.
- [14:14]
B
But, like, did you consider yourself an activist already?
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A
I didn't consider myself an activist. I still don't consider myself an activist. I consider myself, like, you know, a media person, a storyteller, a journalist. Like, you know, there are people who are actually doing the work, and that is, you know, and that is great, but I wanted to be part of that. And that was not what Glamour was, like, put on this earth for, or what the business model was. It's a fashion and beauty magazine, and you have to do right by those subjects.
- [14:42]
B
When you were at Conde, the model of leadership was command and control, which I totally agree. That was definitely a thing. And then you pivoted to do something on your own. I want to know what made you decide to do that. And then what's interesting is you always said it was a collective, which is kind of the antithesis of command and control.
- [15:00]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think I. You know, even though, yes, like, the model at Conde Nast was command and control, I think I learned over the years, as probably most of us did, that, like, your best working experiences are when you're collaborating, whether it's with your team or even with, like, someone from another magazine or another brand. It's just, like, much more rewarding to be able to, like, spitball with someone, work it out with somebody, and, you know, find somebody who's gonna have, like, a way better idea than you could ever have. Like, that's where the fun happens. It doesn't happen. And you, like, just being, you know, like, blinders on and doing your thing. And so I think I was excited to do something where I was just in active collaboration with other people a lot, and particularly with people who are, like, younger than me, who come from, like, different parts of the world of journalism or magazines than, you know, than I do. And also, like, our subject at the Meteor is Tell us what the Meteor is, because, again, we're a media company focused on issues that affect women, girls, non binary people in this country. So, you know, we're a feminist outlet. We publish podcasts, newsletters, a lot of social video. We do a lot of live events because we find that, like, our audience and I think just people in general really want to be together physically right now. And then we also do, like, partnerships with brands and, you know, and larger organizations.
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B
So you're listed as a co founder, right? I'm sort of interested in this idea of the collective.
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A
Yeah. So it started with a group of us probably, you know, initially about, you know, 12 or 15. We had our first ideas meeting in Gloria Steinem's living room. Which is why? Well, because that's a great question. Why? I had known Gloria for years. She was a contributing editor to glamour in the 1960s, which obviously, I will say it in case it's not obvious, I was not there then. But I'd gotten to know her during my time at Glamour because of that history. And I had been like an avid reader of Ms. Like, it was the only magazine that my mom got other than Scientific American, which, as we've established, was like, not my jam baby. And so. But I loved Ms. And so I'd always kept in touch with Gloria. And this conversation had started between me and other members of the collective about how we were seeing this rise in, like, activism among women and political engagement among women. But there wasn't really a, you know, a sort of home for storytelling in the way that, like, Ms. Had been, you know, back in the 1970s and, you know, still continues. I mean, it continues to publish today and is doing great work. But, you know, what would speak to this sort of movement that we were starting to see? And, you know, Gloria was like, come over, have and, you know, have a meeting here. I love an. I love. She loves an editorial ideas meeting. So there were a group of about 15 of us and, you know, we went over and we brainstormed and then we had a bunch of other meetings. None in as, you know, quite fabulous a place as her living room. And, you know, but she had been like, this is where we made Ms. Magazine back in the 1970s. What does that look like today?
- [18:01]
B
That's a pretty storied moment.
- [18:03]
A
Yeah. And so, you know, there were a lot of discussions and then there were a lot of pivots because Covid started and we had thought we were going to start with like a whole kind of live event series and then very quickly pivoted to doing podcasts and some virtual Events. And that kind of taught us like, oh, okay, there's a space for that.
- [18:20]
B
So it's interesting as I listened to our own conversation, you know, we both have had roles that were in the corporate world where, you know, it comes with structure and resources. And even if you're a change maker, which we definitely share, it's different doing your own thing. Right. And so as I listen, I think like, oh, it just sounds so easy. Well, you know, I gathered people in Gloria Steinem's house and then we did this thing. We were so good at pivoting. But the truth is, starting your own business, even me, like, trying this podcast thing, it's messy and you're actually quite vulnerable and hanging out there by yourself in some ways, even if you have a team.
- [18:53]
A
Totally. Yes. I mean, I think, you know, in a way that like, doing a project is easier. And at that point it was a project. Then when it becomes a business and you're like, oh, now I understand when people say that, like being an entrepreneur is like not at all glamorous. Like, it is truly not at all glamorous. Like, you know, it's you waking up at like 2:30 in the morning being like, you know, shit, did I forget to renew our, you know, E and O insurance? Which is.
- [19:19]
B
Or oh, I woke up at 2 and said, wait, did I give Cindy the right address for today?
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A
But you did and I'm here. But no, we weren't sure. Also, in case our lawyers are listening, I did renew the E and O insurance. Exactly. But like, you know, there have been plenty of balls like that that I've dropped. And you know, even if you have a team and we have a great, albeit small team, it is still like on me.
- [19:43]
B
Not like the size of the team that you had at Khande.
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A
No, definitely, definitely, definitely not. And you know, there's really good parts of that, which is that like, if you are anyone in our organization, whether you're an assistant or you're like one of the senior leaders. I know I'm making it sound like it's 100 people.
- [20:00]
B
You know, it's like, how many people are there?
- [20:02]
A
There, There are six full time staff members. And then we have, you know, a number of other people who work with us on other. It's a major difference.
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B
Okay, keep going.
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A
It is a huge difference. But like that flat organization where I know any entry level job, they always tell you like, you can contribute on any level, we're going to hear your ideas. But like, in a big organization, that's really hard yeah, truly, like, you will be part of every decision we have to make, from, like, the boring ones to the, you know, to the exciting sort of editorial things.
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B
What surprised you? Like, raising money. Like, what were the parts that were hard?
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A
I mean, raising money is incredibly hard. Partly because raising money is just hard, and partly because, like, overcoming that thing of, like, I have to be perfect before I can go out there and ask people for money is something that you have to get rid of. I mean, one memory I had that I kept coming back to is my husband spent years as an independent film producer. And I remember when he was producing his first film, which was like, you know, this was, like, very early in his career. Like, no real track record in those early days, like, calling friends to try to get them to invest and be like, hey, I'm, you know, I'm doing this movie. We think it's going to be great. This is like the era of independent film in the 90s. Like, you know, are you interested in, you know, coming into this? I can send you, you know, I can send you information. Like, maybe you want to, you know, chip in whether it's like, 25,000. So he was good at doing 100,000. He was just doing the ask. Like, it was no big deal, you know, And I would be like, how can you just ask people for money like that? And he'd be like, well, they can say no. And lots of people do say no. And I did come back to that memory a lot when I had to go out and raise funds for the company, which is different from, obviously, during my years at Conde Nast. I'd done a lot of pitching. You're always pitching, right? You're trying to persuade an advertiser. You're trying to explain to a celebrity why they should do your cover and not someone else's. So it wasn't that. But that's different because that's not just you. You're pitching like, this is a big.
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B
Thing, much more vulnerable thing to try.
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A
I wish someone had said to me very clearly at the beginning is, first of all, there probably is no one right way to do it. So number two, don't spend so much time trying to get it to be perfect before you go. Before you go out with it. Like, I remember, you know, first of all, there are so many decisions that you have to make as, you know, an entrepreneur. Like, how do you want to structure your company? What's the business model? How do you define the market? All of those things. And, like, partly because I come from, you know, A career in journalism. I really wanted to get it right. And partly because, like, I'm a habitual perfectionist. Like, you know, so many. I feel like I'm probably sitting so.
- [22:44]
B
Many other type A people. Oh, like me.
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A
Yeah. And, you know, that perfectionism has, like, had largely, like, served me well in my career. So I kind of felt like I want this to be, like, totally buttoned up, and, like, she's made every right choice, and she's got the exact right people with her. And, like, you can just keep tinkering like that forever. And I wish that, like, I now tell people, like, you know, get it to a place where, like, you feel like you can answer questions, but, like, then just go out and start pitching it to people, and you will learn from those nos. You know, more than you can learn just sitting there, like, working on your deck and working on your business model.
- [23:21]
B
So I want to pivot to sort of the conversation about the time that we're in. Right. So you leaned into something. It was a moment of time in 2017, 2018. Now we're fully in. And the thing that the meteor is very focused on, yes, storytelling and journalism, but kind of this notion of feminism is under attack.
- [23:41]
A
Yeah.
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B
Right. And so how do you. And I mean, clearly you're very good at looking at obstacles and making them into obstacle courses. Like, you're very resilient.
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A
I love that phrase. It's actually not my talk. Oh, sorry. I have watched your TED Talk.
- [23:53]
B
Well, now you're going to Definitely go watch it.
- [23:55]
A
2. We're going to watch the TED Talk.
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B
No, but somebody told me that that's how I behaved. I didn't actually come up with it myself, interestingly, my neighbor Nathaniel. But the thing that's interesting is that the thing that you're now focused on is under attack, and you're pretty resilient. We've definitely observed this here, but not everybody is resilient. So how do you remain hopeful? What do you worry about for other people? Because it's kind of a difficult time for people who are in that lane.
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A
It's incredibly difficult. And, I mean, I think, first of all, like, you know, I would never sugarcoat it. I mean, it's really. When you take a step back and look at where we are. You know, I talked about my mom. I grew up with this understanding that, like, science was sort of a truth. Like, it was sort of her religion. And to see now what's happening at the nih, to see what's happening to just our basic concepts of, you Know, respecting, you know, accuracy, respecting health information, respecting science, kind of tossed by the wayside. It's incredibly unmooring. Like, it's not just an obstacle. It's something that, you know, makes you feel like you've taken a step. You know, when you, you're on a staircase and you said the step that you thought was there is not there. It is that kind of feeling. And so I think that's real and I feel it.
- [25:16]
B
But if somebody's depressed or feeling anxious or, you know, want to, you know, wants to curl up like a ball, like, what's, what's the lesson that we can pass on to them?
- [25:25]
A
Well, first of all, that is rational, you know, and I would never say to people, like, don't be depressed. Get over your depression. Get out there and do something.
- [25:32]
B
Because we know that doesn't work.
- [25:33]
A
We know that doesn't work. But it's also like a totally, you know, I think it's a totally normal human impulse to be depressed. I think, first of all, focusing on the world that you inhabit personally, like your community, your workplace, what are you doing, you know, within your family? If you have people in your family that feel differently, like, what are you doing within the world where you are a protagonist to, you know, to change things, I think that's where you can also start to feel like real successes.
- [26:02]
B
I think about this because, you know, it can seem insurmountable.
- [26:05]
A
Yeah, right.
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B
And I think that if you focus on a hyper local level, and by the way, you don't have to try to make enormous changes. You can start by making small changes, even just getting to know your neighbors. I think part of what's happening is that there's just a lack of understanding and empathy and there's a lot of things that are broken. It's not like one side is right and one side is wrong, but rediscovering our humanity, like, starts close by.
- [26:29]
A
Yeah. And that's where you also, like, you realize, oh, there are probably are things that I agree with these people on in some fashion. And I'm not doing that thing of, like, you know, it's on Democrats to reach across the aisle because it's like on everybody to try to work together. But I think, like, you know, just trying to have personal conversations rather than thinking of everything on this, like, great big political stage is important. And also just like, you know, try to remind yourself that there are a lot of people that feel like you do. And I'm sure for anyone listening to this, like, there is a group in your Community. There's a group in your workplace. There's a group at your, you know, at your school. There are people, you know who are working on something that matters. And you can, like, find them and be with them, because it's not. It's not like the entire world has decided that, you know, it hates these values that have. You know, you can pick anything, you.
- [27:30]
B
Can join the garden club. Just getting that sense of agency back, I think can help.
- [27:34]
A
I also think, just like being with people physically is incredibly important. I think we're at this moment also where, because of the rise of AI, where you really can do so many things just by yourself. Right. I don't know if you've experimented with any of these.
- [27:47]
B
I have. It really is astounding.
- [27:51]
A
If you've used the Notebook tool, you can.
- [27:54]
B
Oh, I used NotebookLM yesterday. I literally called four people and was like, you have to listen to this.
- [27:59]
A
Yeah. Did you make the podcast?
- [28:01]
B
No, I mean. Oh, I did. I actually took the notes. Okay. So this is so interesting. I took the notes for the conversation that we're having and I dropped it in because I was doing something else. So I just wanted it to play it on audio for me. But it went so much beyond that. It made it into a podcast.
- [28:16]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The two people talking to each other as if it was a real person completely. Now talking to you, I find myself. I'm like, oh, my God, I sound like that Notebook audio person.
- [28:26]
B
So it's such a cramp.
- [28:28]
A
And you know what else is interesting? They have this, like, pattern down. Anyway, for those of you who don't know who are listening to this, trying Notebook lm. Yeah. And basically there's a tool now that will take whatever document you've fed into it, whether that is a, you know, something found on the Internet or your own document that you've uploaded. It will make it into a podcast incredibly quickly. And my point is that I think that the rise of AI is going to, like, exponentially increase this trend that already exists, which is people just being kind of like alone with their phones or alone with their computers. I mean, the number one. I have not fact checked this, but was recently said to me by a reputable source that the top thing that people are using AI for right now is like, relationships, loneliness, like human. Human connection.
- [29:15]
B
I had to interview three of the top women in AI a couple years ago at Fortune. I was like, why am I the one doing the interview? Because I had to, like, study. Like, I was in college. Cause, you know, I was in a Panic. And what was amazing is I discovered a podcast where a guy had studied for two years people who used AI as companions. This was three years ago. And literally people say, well, at least the Siri asked me how I'm doing.
- [29:38]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's a thing. Oh, no, it's like, you know, and therapy. That way people roll their eyes at it. But apparently, like, there are some good results anyway, whether or not that's good or bad one, I think alarming thing that is likely to come for it is that it is gonna create a sort of, like, silo of one where each one of us can do so many things, you know, just with the AI tools at our disposal. And I think that makes being together with other people, like, really important medicine that we have to make sure we're giving ourselves. Because, like, I do think there's something that happens when you are physically with someone else that does not happen when you are, you know, just alone with AI that's been trained to please you. As we recently saw, ChatGPT was so good at doing.
- [30:24]
B
So you're a mom. Because this is an interesting thing. I think about this a lot. Right. So for circumstantial reasons, for genetic reasons, I don't know. We're both obviously quite resilient and we look forward to. We have kids. It's hard to teach your kids that resilience. And we are now having kids launch into a much more complicated world, as you're describing, with the loneliness epidemic and sort of all the division that exists. What's the lessons that we can try to pass on? I say my kids never listen to me anyway, but maybe our, you know, people who are listening will take it away from us. Cause we're not their moms.
- [30:58]
A
Yeah, I don't. I mean, it's interesting. Cause what I immediately thought of when you brought up motherhood is that I do feel like I'm learning things from my kids now. And I don't mean like learning how to use ChatGPT, although, like that too. I mean, like, I think that because they've grown up with social media, they also are very aware of its limitations and its dangers. And, you know, in some ways are very good at, like, understanding the importance of putting it down. I also think that they are. I mean, I'm generalizing about all kids, but, like, my daughter is 22, and she understands more about, like, how she thinks and how she relates to people than I think I did at that age and sometimes even, you know, than I do now as, like this, you Know, Gen X, get it done. As we've discussed, like Alpha kind of person. I, you know, I think she approaches things with a more sort of like, thoughtful, like, why do you do that? Let's talk about why you do that. She's also like, you know, been in therapy, which is like a great and reward, rewarding part of her life, which I think a lot of younger people kind of see in a way that.
- [32:09]
B
Like, it's so much more accepted.
- [32:10]
A
Our generation didn't. Yeah, it's much more, it's much more accepted and that's good. So I do think there are things that like, we can learn from that. You know, as far as like the sort of guardrails around. How do you not let your life be, you know, sort of hijacked by forces of technology that are ultimately propelled by people who, you know, don't really have your best interests in mind and, you know, are largely still unregulated? I think it's just being aware of that. I mean, just. I think that's the biggest tool that we can have right now other than, you know, the very obvious things of like, have moments and ideally days and maybe even weeks where you are like, putting it away, where you are off the phone, where you are really like forcing yourself just the way you might force yourself to exercise or to eat healthy. You're forcing yourself to like, be offline. I think that's important.
- [33:07]
B
One thing that sort of strikes me is that you were in a position and you still are with the meteor, where you're telling stories and sort of communicating out to the world. Right. And maybe it's a little bit more interactive now than it was when he started. There was lean in. There was all kinds of advice everyone's always giving, not just women, but people in general about how to manage their career to try and get satisfaction or happiness or whatever the thing is today. What's the thing that sort of strikes you now with kind of this perspective that you have? Because I agree, like as a mom of a 25 and a 26 year old who, you know, teach me about boundaries, something, you know, when I slept under the desk, like, I was like, that's normal. That's how you move forward in a child. What is like the thing that sort of strikes you that we should.
- [33:50]
A
Did you really sleep under a desk?
- [33:52]
B
Oh, I definitely had those jobs. I worked in investment banking. I worked as a paralegal. I never thought anything of it, but I was like, that's what you do, right? I mean, but I was resilient. So, you know, I was like, okay, you do what you gotta do, right? So we're not gonna do my therapy. We're gonna come back to what is the thing that we think with the perspective that we have from the younger generation and the experience that we've had that you think we should, like, leave other people with that will help them?
- [34:18]
A
Oh, my God. That's such a huge question. Did you just ask me, like, what's the meaning of life?
- [34:22]
B
Solve the world's problems?
- [34:24]
A
I mean, I think everything is more fun when you do it with somebody else. I think that's like, a really, really important thing. And again, you know, AI is going to. You know, it's probably gonna be, like, evolved hugely by the time this podcast even comes out. Like, that's how fast 100% are changing. But, you know, all of that really prompts us to be insular. And I think everything, like work or, you know, friendships or just, like, the act of being human, like, we are made to be with other people. And so I think just, you know, again, women were always taught to be competitive in the workplace. Took me a long time to understand that, like, collaboration makes everything better. Even if it is hard sometimes to get over your, like, you know, I got this mentality, but I think it's always worth doing because, you know, it just makes. It makes everything better.
- [35:20]
B
You have to prioritize joy. Like, it's actually okay to have joy.
- [35:24]
A
Yeah.
- [35:24]
B
It's not just accomplishment. You can also have joy.
- [35:26]
A
Totally. Yes.
- [35:27]
B
Because, you know, we've. I hope we learned that.
- [35:28]
A
Yeah, sorry. That also plus joy.
- [35:30]
B
Plus joy. Okay, so let's do Rapid Fire.
- [35:33]
A
Okay.
- [35:35]
B
Favorite karaoke song or Walk on Music.
- [35:37]
A
I always used to do for Walk on Music. This is highly random. God Put a Smile on youn Face by Mark Ronson. Just a great.
- [35:44]
B
I'm gonna have to go listen to that.
- [35:45]
A
Yeah, I really recommend it. Great. Walk on Music.
- [35:48]
B
Okay. What are you reading, watching, or listening to?
- [35:52]
A
I'm watching hacks right now. I know. I'm so basic. It's like, that is everywhere.
- [35:57]
B
Oh, my God. Does that make us basic?
- [35:58]
A
No, it's not basic. It's more just like, it is a show that everybody loves right now. So I'm giving you an esoteric answer. I love it so much. And that relationship between Hannah Einbinder and Jean Smart is like, there's nothing. There's nothing.
- [36:11]
B
We might like the intergenerational story.
- [36:13]
A
I love it. And I love that I love them both.
- [36:17]
B
What is a food you'd bring to A potluck.
- [36:19]
A
Oh, definitely my green chicken. It's a green chicken. I know it sounds kind of gross. It's like my go to marinade slash barbecue food. You just blenderize jalapenos, cilantro, garlic, and soy sauce. And then you let chicken pie marinade in it for however long you want. If you want to do it for 24 hours, it'll be even better. And then it can go on the grill or you can do it in the oven. And it is like my foolproof recipe.
- [36:42]
B
And you cook. That's why I love taking away.
- [36:44]
A
I love cooking. Yeah.
- [36:45]
B
Okay.
- [36:45]
A
I'm not like, great cooking.
- [36:46]
B
I definitely don't cook. So I'd bring something store bought.
- [36:50]
A
No shame.
- [36:51]
B
Okay. What is something that would surprise people about you?
- [36:53]
A
I may have written about this, but I think most people probably don't know that I delivered a calf. Being.
- [37:01]
B
No, I did not know this about you.
- [37:03]
A
On a farm in Ohio in my 20s. And I won't tell you any of the details, but it was like an extremely formative experience. It also involved a long plastic glove.
- [37:13]
B
She was also very messy. That said very, very messy.
- [37:16]
A
Yeah, yeah. But I actually do, you know, when I thought about it, I thought about it when I was in labor with my own kids. Cause I was like, I feel like I'm going to die. But like, the fact that I remembered this cow, like, kind of. What do cows do? Like, when they're in pain? It's not mooing, it's blowing, I guess. Anyway, it was like, okay, definitely another.
- [37:33]
B
Word I did not know.
- [37:34]
A
But then, like, the calf came out, we got it, and like five minutes later, the cow was like, totally fine. And I was like, okay, this is something that the human body is built to do. It feels like I'm going to die. But like, you know, bajillions of people have felt like this. And many cows also, all through. All through life. Yes. Anyway, so that.
- [37:52]
B
Okay, what's an alternative career you might have taken?
- [37:55]
A
I had no alternative careers. I had no backups.
- [37:58]
B
You had no plan B. I remember this about you.
- [38:00]
A
No plan B. None. In retrospect, I think I would have been a really good lawyer. Cause I like the details and I sometimes kind of like to argue.
- [38:09]
B
Are you baking or cooking?
- [38:10]
A
I don't think I'm good enough. I just really enjoy it. But I don't know if I'd want to be, like, you know, kind of judged by it or like, have to rise.
- [38:19]
B
I like the whole thing that we're being judged by at all times, it's back to the glamour do's and don'ts. Let me ask you, what is one lesson we should leave everybody with as we part from this podcast?
- [38:33]
A
Always wear your name tag on the right. Oh, really? Ann Richards taught me that. Former governor of Texas. I was her, like, escort during Glamour Women of the Year when I was like a baby editor and she was Ann Richards, the governor of Texas. And I remember I had my name tag on the left and she said, always wear your name tag on the right. I have no idea if it's correct, but ever since then, I wonder why I've always worn my name tag on the right. I don't know.
- [38:54]
B
I would wear it on the right, too, if Ann Richards told me.
- [38:56]
A
I can't tell you why, but Ann Richards told me. I think again, it's like, like, you know, collaboration, like, collaborate. Everything is more fun when you. And ultimately more successful when you can collaborate and, you know, work with people you like. Like, you know, that makes everything better. It's not always possible, but when it's possible, that's makes a big difference. It makes a big difference.
- [39:23]
B
Well, thank you, Cindy, so much for coming on. Honestly, that was an amazing conversation. I could have asked you many, many other messages.
- [39:28]
A
Thank you. I, I. Did we cover it all?
- [39:30]
B
I don't think so.
- [39:31]
A
Okay.
- [39:32]
B
You might have to come back. Okay.