Debra Martin Chase: Safe Choice, Wrong Choice

Summary

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The Messy Parts with Maryam Banikarim

Episode: Debra Martin Chase – Safe Choice, Wrong Choice

Date: June 30, 2025

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Overview of the Episode

This episode features a deeply honest conversation between host Maryam Banikarim and trailblazing producer Debra Martin Chase. Together, they unpack the real “messy parts” behind Debra’s extraordinary career journey—from Harvard Law to producing hit films and Broadway plays, breaking barriers as a Black woman in Hollywood. The discussion centers on making hard life choices, pursuing one’s true purpose, taking major career pivots, and the emotional highs and lows that come with forging a path of impact and representation in the entertainment industry.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Safe Choice vs. the Right Choice

• Early Ambitions vs. Practical Decisions
  • Debra initially aspired to go into film but opted for Harvard Law because it felt like a secure path, especially as a woman raised amidst expectations of independence since her parents’ divorce ([02:02]):

    “I thought that going to law school would be the safe thing to do, that I would have a credential to back me up so that I knew I could always take care of myself financially if I had a Harvard Law degree.” —Debra [02:02]

  • The influence of her strong, educated female relatives set early expectations for self-sufficiency ([03:08]).

2. Discovering Dissatisfaction and Hitting the Pivot Point

• Realizations of Misalignment
  • Despite being a successful lawyer, Debra was left feeling unfulfilled, leading to a near-death experience that gave her clarity ([06:54]):

    “If I had died today or if I had been seriously maimed, I'm miserable and I don't want to live like this.” —Debra [06:56]

  • The emotional toll was high:

    “I spent my 28th birthday on my couch in my den, crying the whole day because I thought my life was over.” —Debra [10:22]

3. Career Transitions: From Law to Politics to Film

• Exploration and Research
  • Tried various legal jobs and became involved in political campaigns (Michael Dukakis), leveraging her political science background and love for politics ([08:13]).
  • Debra dedicated significant time to researching the film industry, networking through campaign contacts, and seeking out informational meetings and seminars before making the leap ([11:11]):

    “I talked to anybody they would refer me to. I went to seminars, I read books. So I could really understand how the movie business worked.” —Debra [11:11]

4. Defining and Pursuing Purpose

• Purpose as North Star
  • Debra emphasizes the painstaking process of uncovering true purpose, insisting there is no roadmap:

    “It starts with you...digging inside yourself and figuring out what's important to you. What is your value structure? What are the things that matter?” —Debra [13:23]

  • She reflects on trial-and-error and the importance of believing in oneself to “jump off the cliff” when it counts ([14:23]).

5. Breaking Into Hollywood and Seizing Opportunity

• Early Film Industry Breaks

  • Upon joining Columbia Pictures' executive development program, Debra was willing to take substantial pay cuts to get out of law and into production ([15:18]).
  • Her big break came from showing initiative with Frank Price, then Columbia Pictures chairman:

    “I spent the weekend in my little apartment. I read the book twice, I made my notes, and I called him Monday morning, first thing...” —Debra [16:52]

  • Lesson: Seizing chance encounters and demonstrating commitment can open doors.

• Taking Initiative with Denzel Washington

  • Debra describes how she introduced herself to Denzel on the lot and how, through connections and serendipity, became his company executive:

    “I just went up to him and introduced myself...He said, great, let's talk tomorrow.” —Debra [18:18]

6. The Drive for Representation and Female Empowerment

• Intentional Storytelling
  • Debra articulates her mission to tell stories that reflect marginalized voices, noting her own lack of representation growing up ([22:27]):

    “My main motivation for getting into the film and television business was because I never saw myself on screen growing up.” —Debra [22:27]

  • She went on to produce culturally significant, girl-powered hits: Cinderella (with Whitney Houston), The Princess Diaries, Cheetah Girls, Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, and more ([21:46], [22:03]).

7. Navigating Burnout, Setbacks, and Reinvention

• Hollywood’s Harsh Realities
  • Debra candidly shares her struggles with career stagnation, systemic inequality, and emotional exhaustion ([23:57])
  • Vernon Jordan’s blunt, tough-love advice helped her refocus:

    “You are too old to start over...You have great reputation, great experience, great relationships. You got to figure out how to make it work, period.” —Vernon Jordan via Debra [27:23]

  • Ultimately, a “Hollywood week of highs and low lows” as one project ends and Broadway success blossoms ([29:32]):

    “It was like the universe was saying, okay, this door is closing, but the window's wide open.” —Debra [30:05]

8. The Relentless Value of Relationships and Mentorship

• Relationships as Career Fuel

  • In a business of relationships, Debra underscores intentionality and reciprocity ([33:45]):

    “People work with people that they want to be around. Also, you just learn from other people.” —Debra [33:45]

  • She stresses the importance of living in LA, at least temporarily, for anyone pursuing film or TV careers.

• Mentorship and Paying It Forward

  “I always felt I had a responsibility to pay that forward...I put my foot in the door and was pulling people in after me.” —Debra [34:53]

  • She finds pride in seeing those she mentored thrive in the industry.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “This was not the dream.” —Debra, on her early law career [04:49]
• “I have to leave. My soul is going to die here.” —Debra, on Houston and her marriage [07:24]
• “You have to get to the point where you can bet on yourself.” —Debra, parting advice [37:23]
• “One door closes, another one opens.” —Maryam [30:05]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |-------------|------------------------------------------------| | 02:02 | Choosing Harvard Law over film school | | 06:54 | Near-death experience triggers epiphany | | 11:11 | Researching the film industry and finding purpose| | 14:23 | Deciding to jump “off the cliff” into film | | 16:52 | Debra’s initiative with Frank Price | | 18:18 | Meeting Denzel Washington; taking initiative | | 22:27 | Storytelling for representation and empowerment | | 27:23 | Vernon Jordan’s blunt advice | | 29:32 | Broadway success & simultaneous setbacks | | 33:45 | The importance of relationships | | 34:53 | Mentorship and legacy-building | | 37:23 | Betting on yourself — key closing advice |

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Rapid Fires and Personal Insights ([35:36]–[37:23])

• Karaoke Song: “I Will Always Love You” ([35:39])
• Potluck Food: Fish ([35:54])
• Reading: S.A. Cosby novel ([36:13])
• Advice for downtime: She loves to “turn off”, retreating into bed with a book or TV to replenish ([36:41])
• Parting Wisdom: Bet on yourself ([37:23])

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Tone & Takeaways

Authentic and unfiltered, this conversation is as much about ambition as it is about vulnerability—the necessity of inner work, the courage to forsake “safe” choices, and the power of both self-belief and sustained relationships. It’s a blueprint for finding purpose through both resilience and community.

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Actionable Insights for Listeners

• Dig deep and define your purpose—there is no roadmap but your own values and curiosities.
• Be willing to take risks for what you really want—even when it means losing comfort or security.
• Take initiative in relationships and opportunities; effort is often rewarded in unexpected ways.
• Nourish relationships and mentorships throughout your career—they are invaluable support in every phase.
• When faced with setbacks and endings, stay open to new beginnings—the universe may be “opening a window.”

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

I hated working at the law firm. And then I went to another law firm. I hated that one too. Then I went to two corporations, hated that. And then I realized, okay, I'm just not. None of this practicing law is going to do it for me. I guess I'm lucky in the sense that I did always have the dream. And by that time I believed in myself to say, ok, you can jump off the cliff.

[B]

So we just had a really amazing conversation with Deborah Martin Chase. She's an iconic producer. Film, tv, Broadway. What I love about this conversation is she talks about how at 28, she found herself miserable as a lawyer, was willing to completely throw in the towel and start again at the bottom. She enters a cutthroat business and actually develops incredible relationships that have served her really, really well. The other thing is she clearly had a dream early on. She really, really was looking for that.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Understanding what that difference was that she wanted to make in the world. And she took the time to figure it out. Diving into the messy parts of successful people's career journeys. There is so much to learn. I can't wait for you to listen. Deborah Martin Chase, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show.

[A]

I'm so happy to be here with you.

[B]

I mean, besides being an incredibly accomplished producer of all kinds, right? Film, movies, don't roll your eyes, Broadway, tv. I mean, what I love is that we're actually friends. And so I very much appreciate.

[A]

For many years.

[B]

I know, for many years. I want to start with sort of that moment where you have two applications, Harvard Law School and USC film School. And you were a kid who grew up in the movie theaters, you know, sitting in the theater watching double features, right? Head to head movies. What made you not go to film school and decide to. I mean, and I know it's Harvard.

[A]

Harvard Law School, because I was raised to value being able to take care of myself as a woman. And so, you know, I didn't know anybody in the industry, in the film industry. I didn't see anybody who looked like me, who was making movies. And it's a tough business. Everybody knows it's a tough business. So I thought that going to law school would be the safe thing to do, that I would have a credential to back me up so that I knew I could always take care of myself financially if I had a Harvard Law degree.

[B]

Why did you feel the need that you had to actually take care of yourself? Like, where did that come from?

[A]

Single mom. I mean, I mean, my parents divorced, not single like, my parents divorced when I was 12. My dad was very much in my life. He was the biggest film and television buff that I ever knew and inspired me, you know. But my mom was raising three kids on her own, and she went back to school. She went back to graduate school in her mid-30s with three. Divorced with three kids.

[B]

What did she go for?

[A]

Early childhood education, developmental psychology, University of Massachusetts Amherst. Big deal. You know, retrospect, a big deal. And so it was ingrained upon me and my. Her sisters, my aunts, were very independent. They had master's degrees from Northwestern. They married, you know, what in those times was late. They married in their mid-30s. And so it was just important in our family that women that we be independent and be able to take care of ourselves.

[B]

And did you know lawyers?

[A]

No. But what I did do, what I ended up doing is, well, two things. In between college and law school, I worked as a paralegal at Melviny and Myers. So, in fact, this is where I met our friend Nina Shah. She and Nita Hill were summer associates.

[B]

So Nina Shaw, who is a very big entertainment lawyer. And actually your lawyer as well.

[A]

And actually my lawyer as well. Our friend, yes. And then my boyfriend for many years while I was in college was at Harvard Law School.

[B]

Okay. So that was a path you could see.

[A]

I could see it and. Cause I, you know, kind of lived at the law school with him while I was in college. I was like, well, I could do that. I mean, I, you know, I could go to Harvard Law School.

[B]

So you go to law school, you.

[A]

Get married right out of law school?

[B]

Right out of law school. Same. Same boyfriend?

[A]

Same.

[B]

No, no, different boyfriend.

[A]

Boyfriend.

[B]

Someone you met at Harvard Law School, and you moved to Houston. Houston, Texas, and you become a corporate lawyer.

[A]

Big firm, working for a big firm. So all of a sudden, I'm working for this big firm in downtown Houston, Texas, married, living in a big house in a very residential neighborhood. And I was like, what the hell happened? Like, this was not. This was not the dream.

[B]

But what was the dream?

[A]

Oh, my God. Had I not gotten married and I got married because I was in love at the time. I was going to work for a big law firm in New York for a couple of years, save my money and move to Paris and write the great American novel.

[B]

So you always had storytelling at the back of your mind?

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[B]

Do you think if you'd moved to New York, you would have stayed a lawyer?

[A]

No. No.

[B]

So law just wasn't for you?

[A]

No, I did. I did not. I was A really good lawyer, but I didn't enjoy practicing law.

[B]

Did you like law school?

[A]

I appreciate the skills that I gained in law school. I learned how to negotiate, I learned how to analyze. I learned to enhance my thought process. I love the students I love. I'm still very, very close.

[B]

You made lifelong friends.

[A]

Lifelong friends. Still very, very close. It's just, you know, everybody. I found everybody had a story. You know, by the time you get to Harvard Law School, whether you, you know, kind of prep school, Harvard undergrad, Harvard Law School, or you're like the smartest guy or girl at a very small college in the Midwest.

[B]

So how many years did you stay in Houston and married until you decided, like, now? Wait a second. Something's really off.

[A]

The first law firm, I worked there for two years. I had not a moment to breathe, you know, young associate, sleep under your desk. Oh, my God. So I had no time to think, even think about what else I wanted to do. And honestly, I was. It was at lunch one day in downtown Houston. I was walking across the street and a car ran a red light and it stopped literally just short of me.

[B]

Oh. Near death experience.

[A]

Near death experience. I went home that night and I told my husband, I'm quitting. I was like, if I had died today or if I had been seriously maimed, I'm miserable and I don't want to live like this. So two years. I took a year off as a freelance writer, but really trying to figure it all out. And then another year. So, I don't know, I was there maybe five years.

[B]

And did you know your marriage was ending, too?

[A]

I knew there were issues. I was like, look, I have to leave. Like, I can't. This. I'm. My soul is going to die here. And I say that I have such great friends still in Houston to this day. So I have a lot of love for a lot. But it just, at that point in my life, was not fitting. It was not giving me the space to do the things that I wanted to do. So I said, I'm going to New York or la. He said, okay, we'll do New York, because he was in finance. And then when we got to New York, it became pretty clear to me that this was not working.

[B]

So you come to New York. How do you pivot into the film business?

[A]

Oh, that. It took me a few years. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Were you a lawyer when you first came to New York?

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

So you went back to law?

[A]

I went to. I worked for a smaller law firm, thinking maybe it wouldn't Be so bad. And I never saw the light of day for six months. And then I went to Avon Products and I was an in house lawyer for I think like three years. I mean, a good, good long time. And during that time we separated. He moved back to Houston and I was just like, you know, a kid in a candy store in New York, you know, young, hanging out. And then I was a member of the national and New York state finance committees for Michael Dukakis. And I was a delegate to the convention and I was poli sci major, loved politics. It was a really great experience. And coming out of that, I got an offer to work for the Dinkins administration. And in that moment I was like, you know what? If I'm going to go for it, let me go for the dream, which was always been to make film and television.

[B]

Like, at what age did you know that you wanted to make film and television forever?

[A]

I mean, it was a dream, you know, it was so far away because I didn't know anybody, you know, you see it, you can be it kind of thing, you know. But yes, I always loved film and television.

[B]

But by that point, like, you thought the dream was at least somehow within reach?

[A]

Yeah, well, again, I had the law school degree in my pocket, plus some experience to boot, and I was divorced and I didn't have a mortgage for the first time. This was my moment. If I, I knew if I didn't try it now, I would. I would lose that window.

[B]

I want to talk about that for a second because there's a lot of people we know who sort of hit a hitch, find themselves married or in a job they don't like, but it's hard to pivot. But you somehow believed yourself enough to think you deserved something different.

[A]

I was so miserable practicing law. And again, I don't mean to bash Houston, but it just, at that point.

[B]

Just didn't work for you.

[A]

None of it. None of it worked. I spent my 28th birthday on my couch in my den, crying the whole day because I thought my life was over.

[B]

Wait, where was your husband at the time? This was when you were divorced?

[A]

No, we were, you know.

[B]

Yeah, he's like, what are you doing? Crying?

[A]

He's at work. Like, you know, I took a, you know, and the year that I had taken off in between, again, I was. I was freelance writing, which is hard to do, you know, from Houston, but I realized that I had a contribution to make to the world and that until I figured out what that was and got on with it, I was not going to be happy.

[B]

So you basically decide you're gonna go for it. Do you move to la?

[A]

No, that year I'm still working at Avon, but researching. So I'd met some people in the Dukakis campaign in the film business on a high level. So I talked to them. I talked to anybody they would refer me to. I went to seminars, I read books. So I could really understand how the movie business worked. And I discovered that the people who actually come up with the ideas for movies are either studio executives on the inside or producers on the outside. And I realized that's what I wanted to do.

[B]

So that's when you figured out your purpose.

[A]

At least figured out what the path would be. Once you figure out what the goal is, then you can make a plan and then you can move forward. The hardest part, and I've been there a couple times in my life, is when you don't really know what you want to do. And sorting through that and figuring out what you want, what you think your purpose is in life and zeroing in on that, those are some of the hardest periods and hardest things to do.

[B]

You know, my daughter Natasha, she's in her early 20s. This is a question that comes up all the time, right, with her and her friends. Like, how do you figure out what it is you want to do?

[A]

Right?

[B]

I mean, because that's a big question and almost daunting.

[A]

It's a huge question. And I think it's a question that most people don't truly answer. What's easy to do? What's readily available to do?

[B]

What's expected of you?

[A]

What's expected of you is huge. So really doing that soul searching to figure out what it is you think you. What really matters to you, what really is going to give you great satisfaction. I mean, listen, I. I'm producing this play on Broadway right now called Purpose. And underneath everything, it is about finding your purpose in life.

[B]

So do we have a roadmap? Like, how do I tell Natasha? How do I.

[A]

There is no roadmap. All I can say is you gotta. It starts with you, and it starts with you really digging inside yourself and figuring out what's important to you. What is your value structure? What. What are the things that matter? What do you want to give to the world? What's going to make you happy? Those are really tough questions, hard questions to answer. So some of those also trial and error. I mean, I did a lot of different things in those early years, flailing around. Well, I hated working at the law firm. And then I Went to another law firm. I hated that one, too. Then I went to two corporations, hated that. And then I realized, okay, I'm just not. None of this practicing law is going to do it for me. I guess I'm lucky in the sense that I did always have the dream. And by that time, I believed in myself to say, okay, you can jump off the cliff.

[B]

So you moved to la.

[A]

So I interviewed in New York at Columbia Pictures with the. At that time, they had an east coast general counsel for a legal job. My good friend's sister was in human resources, and I was waiting in her office until my interview started. She left. I was snooping on her desk, and I saw a memo about this executive development program that they were starting at Columbia that was designed to bring people in from different disciplines and try and have a more diverse executive group. So when she came back to office, I was like, I want to do that. And she said, well, it's like, you don't pay no money. I was like, yes, but it will get me over to the other side of things, out of law. So I got into that program.

[B]

So you were willing to take a pay cut to make the move?

[A]

Yeah, I was willing to. I had made up my mind that I was going for it, so whatever I needed to do. You were willing to do it? I was willing to do it. So I moved to LA in connection with that. And I grew up 6 through 15. Actually grew up in Altadena, which nobody ever heard of until, sadly, the fires. But I grew up in Altadena, so it was a homecoming of sorts, even though, you know, I was living in LA and the program was designed. It was two years, and you're supposed to spend six months in four different areas of the company. Well, I ended up spending the first year in the legal department because they had an experienced lawyer who was willing to work her butt off off their books. And I learned so much about the underpinnings of the business. And then I sat next to the incoming chairman, Frank Price, at a luncheon for the program. We hit it off, we stayed in touch, and he brought me as his executive assistant for a year, and that was my big break.

[B]

I'm gonna pause because I read about this. So you sit next to him, and he somehow mentions that he's doing something that's connected to Harvard. Y He knows you've gone to Harvard in the conversation, and you do what many people don't do. He comes to you and says, would you read this or would he wanted your opinion? And you Spent two days just digging in and doing the work. In that moment, you showed him what you were capable of. Right. Like lead into this opportunity that sort of just presented itself based on a conversation you had.

[A]

Yeah, I was sitting at the luncheon. He had a book that was set at Harvard that he was really interested in. And at the end of the luncheon, he said, you know, if you ever have a chance to read it, I'd love to hear your thoughts. So, yes, that was on a Thursday. I spent the weekend in my little apartment. I read the book twice, I made my notes, and I called him Monday morning, first thing, and I said, you know, had a chance to read over the weekend, would love to talk to you. He brought me up. He listened. Yes. And that's when he's like, okay, she's serious.

[B]

She's willing to do the work.

[A]

Willing to do the work. And then, you know, like a month or so later, he brought me on as his executive assistant.

[B]

So I think that moment of initiative is such a great lesson. Right. Like, you could have just sort of fluffed off that conversation, never followed up, but you really dug in. And I know that as somebody who's hired people or who's had similar experiences, people sort of get what you're capable of in that moment. That's right. Even if you're not even doing it intentionally.

[A]

That's right. That's exactly right.

[B]

Okay, so you start as his executive assistant and you make your way up. And I'm going to fast forward because you obviously were quite good at what you did, and you weren't afraid of working hard, and you end up going to work for Denzel Washington. I also thought this was a really great, insightful story because, I mean, how many times are we in the room with people who we admire, want to work for, and we do nothing about it? You did something when you saw him on the lot.

[A]

Yeah. Again, it was me taking initiative and then kind of the universe intervening. So, yes, I'm on the Columbia tristar lot. Denzel has a deal at tristar. He has his Oscar for glory. So he's a well respected actor, but he's not the big movie star that he is today. I see him walking across the lot as I'm going to lunch. I just went up to him and introduced myself and said, you know, if you ever have a project that you would want to, you know, bring into Columbia, obviously I'd be interested. He said, great, let's talk tomorrow.

[B]

And what was your job at the time?

[A]

I'm so by this time, Frank has been ousted in a very ugly, very public coup. Before he left, he gave me a contract and put me on the creative staff. So I'm a director of creative affairs. But I'm like. As I used to say, I'm like the lone Democrat in the Republican White House, right? I'm his girl. I'm basically, like, in a converted closet of an office. So I go to lunch, I go back to my office. Doug McHenry was very prominent producer, was a big brother to me. He had been best friends with the older guy at Harvard Law School that I had dated. So he'd known me for a long time, and he had a big deal at Warner Brothers at the time. So as I walk in my office, my phone rings, and it's Doug. And he says, I just hooked you up. And I'm like, what are you talking about? He said, I just had lunch with Denzel. And he told me that over the weekend, his manager left and he's looking for somebody to run his company. I said, well, I just met him two hours ago. And Doug said. He said the same thing. So the next day, I'm in my cubbyhole, and my phone rings, and it's his Denzel's assistant. And she says, you know, Mr. Washington would like to come by and talk to you. Are you going to be there? It's like, yes, I'll be here.

[B]

I'm staying right here.

[A]

I'm not moving. So he comes in, you know, hat pulled down, backpack, and we talked for about two hours and realized we very much saw the world the same way, wanted to do the same things, wanted to make the same kind of movies. And so the next week, I went to, you know, work with him.

[B]

So how many years do you work with him?

[A]

4.

[B]

Big movie that you made together?

[A]

Courage and Fire. Devil in a Blue Dress was our first company production, Preacher's Wife. You know, I took the journey with him to becoming a big movie star. So I learned so much from him. You know, obviously one of our greatest actors, but I learned from him character and dialogue and storytelling from the character perspective, really invaluable. And, you know, he. As he progressed, you know, everybody wanted to meet him, so I got to meet a little bit of everybody.

[B]

And so from there, you go to work for Whitney Houston.

[A]

I found and developed the Preacher's Wife, which it was based on a movie called the Bishop's Wife, Cary Grant. And early on, Whitney signed on, and so I got to know her well. I really more got to know her camp and they were looking to take her career to the next level. And so eventually they approached me about coming in to start a company with her. So we partnered and we started a company at Disney.

[B]

And you made a very big movie.

[A]

Yeah, we did Cinderella. Rodgers Hammerstein, Cinderella. I mean, the Princess Diaries was actually out of Brown House, which is the name of our company, and the Cheetah Girls first Cheetah Girls movie was out of Brown House.

[B]

I want to talk about the fact that at this point, you're making female empowerment movies.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I mean, you've almost, like, found a niche, particularly with Whitney, because between Cinderella, Princess Diaries, Cheetah Girls, Right. Then you even went on to make Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. All of a sudden, there's a narrative, like your purpose actually has a narrative to it, which is about female empowerment and also bringing in different voices and faces on screen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was that deliberate?

[A]

Yes, very much so. My main motivation for getting into the film and television business was because I never saw myself on screen growing up.

[B]

So you've made seminal films, right? I mean, my daughter grew up watching Cheetah Girls. So then you decide to leave Whitney. I mean, that obviously was complicated for many reasons, and get a deal with Disney.

[A]

Unfortunately, I adored her and I liked her, and she was a good person that was, you know, trapped by her enormous celebrity. So, you know, the unraveling started when we were during that period. And I am very grateful that I got a deal with Disney after the success of Princess Diaries.

[B]

And you stayed there for a long time.

[A]

I was at Disney for 20 years. Five years partnered with Whitney, and then 15 years with my own company.

[B]

You know, one of the things I remember is seeing you in la and you were definitely in the Disney phase of things. And even hearing your story now, it's like a brutal business. Right. You have immense success, and yet it's difficult to see the way forward sometimes. I remember you once saying to me, you're just as good as your next project, not the one behind you, so you're gonna have a big success. And it can still seem incredibly daunting. There's no security in the Hollywood section.

[A]

There's no security.

[B]

So I remember reading that you got to a point where you just wanted to throw in the towel.

[A]

Yeah. I was a black woman in Hollywood at a time, you know, and I didn't realize when I started, like, everything else in my life, I was like, well, somebody else is doing it, so I can do it. I get there. I didn't realize there were no black women making Studio movies, you know, executive producing, network TV shows, nothing. I mean, my deal. I was the first black woman to get a producing deal at a major studio. I didn't set out to do that, but I got there. I was determined at that point because I'd given up a lot, and I knew that that was what I really wanted to do. So, again, understanding, you know, what your goal is. You know, I never got paid the same thing as my white male counterparts. I, you know, I had to fight twice as hard for everything. Then there was a period in the industry where I think it was a bit of a, you know, contraction, like, God knows we're going through right now. And suddenly nobody was interested in telling stories about women or people of color. And not that that's all I do, but that was certainly my mission. I had a mission when I went to Hollywood to tell these stories. So, you know, I found myself throwing stuff up against the wall. And if your heart's not in it, you're not. You know, those early movies, I could see them. I believed in them so deeply, and they touched me in a way that I felt that they would touch other people.

[B]

I think that that's why you also have such strong relationships with all the people who've been part of your journey up until now, because that passion was something that you shared with them. In some ways, it was like you were all on a shared mission.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

So you have this moment where you're like, you know what? This isn't working for me. I'm just going to throw in the towel. I read the story about Vernon Jordan, and so what did he say to you that got you to stick. Stick it back out?

[A]

I left Disney because I realized that I changed. Disney had changed, the business had changed, the world had changed, and I was still trying to do business in the same way. And it just wasn't working. So I had to take a step back and open myself up to understand where the business was and find my purpose again. I had lost my motivation and been kind of beat out of me at that point. So it was like, why am. And why am I still doing this? And I looked at doing other things. Should I go back and practice law? Maybe film finance? And I just again, talked to everybody, started going to TED conferences.

[B]

That opened up your aperture, Opened up.

[A]

My mind just to kind of take in stimuli and think about it. So towards the end of that year, and Vernon I'd known Since I was 18, his stepdaughter is one of my best friends from college. As so Many of us were so fortunate. There's like a whole generation that Vernon kind of nurtured. We get together, have lunch once or twice a year. Anyhow, so I go to his office at Lazard. He's behind, sitting behind his desk. I'm like pouring my heart out. It's not working. He just sits there and he listens and I finish. And he said to me, he's like, you are too old to start over.

[B]

I like how straightforward he was.

[A]

That is that, you know, that moonstruck moment. Get over it, you know? And he said, you have a great reputation, great experience, great relationships. You got to figure out how to make it work, period. So I decided I was gonna raise a fund because, again, what I was most interested in is, you know, new voices, diverse voices, female voices and stuff. And one of my good friends signed on and I spent a month doing a business plan. And in many ways, it was like doing the term paper, because everything that I had learned and felt and thought about in that past year went into putting together this business plan. Kind of my vision for where things were going. And literally, like a week after I finished the plan, I got a call out of the blue from Perlina Abokwe, who at the time was the head of Universal Television, saying, do you think you'd be interested in a deal? So I went to Universal and I've been there for, I don't know, seven years or so. And Equalizer, Equalizer came out of that.

[B]

Equalizer just ended, you know, a great show. I love that show. Thank you. First black primetime TV show producer, right? Am I getting that right?

[A]

Non writing, non actor, executive producer of a network hour long TV show.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's ending. You're entering another messy part with that ending. How does that feel? Like, how do you find your way through that?

[A]

So two things. One, we had a five season run, long run, which is a big deal these days. In particular, I love the show so much. I love the cast, the crew. I mean, we really were a family. So as much as anything, that's the part I'm gonna miss. Everybody. We were on the bubble for months. I mean, it was a financial. Because our ratings were still very good. It was really a financial decision by cbs. But on Thursday, Tony nominations came out. In between my two shows, Purpose and Death Becomes it, we got 16 Tony nominations.

[B]

I mean, significant.

[A]

I was jigging, crying. I mean, you know, big deal. The next day, my show got canceled. That Friday, the show gets canceled, and Monday, Brandon wins the Pulitzer Prize for purpose. So it Was like this real. As I keep saying, like a real Hollywood week of highs and low lows. And it was like the universe was saying, okay, this door is closing, but the window's wide open.

[B]

One door closes, another one opens.

[A]

I haven't fully processed that the show is over because it's been such a huge part of my life for the last five years. But it's like, okay, I'm open. You know, let's keep moving forward.

[B]

I'm gonna say you have a formula. You have an interest. You then deconstructed by actually doing homework to understand it. You then come up with a plan. And you're not, like, you totally lean into the risk and just go for it. Because you're describing something that you've now described a couple of times.

[A]

Yes. But also, I find when you have the focus, put yourself out there, take the risk, believe in yourself, then the universe comes in to meet you. Well.

[B]

And also, you have relationships that also fit into that mess.

[A]

But that's what I'm saying in the same way, you know, when I ran Denzel's company In the 90s, Mark Platt was the president of Tristar, and we remained friends for 30 years. And Mark is a prolific. One of the most prolific producers of film and Broadway. He and his partner, David Stone, have wicked. Need I say more?

[B]

Defying Gravity could be your song. Okay.

[A]

Exactly. So I'm on the board, second stage, and I'm still on the board probably like 12 years. But for most of that time, I chaired the artistic committee. So right before COVID we honored David Stone, Mark's Broadway partner. And so Mark found out I was interested in theater, and so he called me and he said, are you interested in producing? I said, yes. I said, that's why I'm doing this, to get the experience. It's okay. I might have something for us. So we partnered on a Strange Loop.

[B]

Which was an amazing show and, you.

[A]

Know, acclaimed and Tony winning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then from there, they have been. He and David have been the most unbelievable mentors, partners. And we did Top Dog, Underdog after that, Outsiders Outside. Well, I didn't do the Outsiders with them.

[B]

No, but you're.

[A]

You kept doing things, I kept doing. So. And once you're in it, I don't know, in five years, I feel like I'm really a part of the community.

[B]

You're definitely part of the community.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And also now living in New York part of the time, because the work brings you here.

[A]

Yeah. I've been bi coastal for a long time because I Find LA very difficult as a black woman and as a single black woman. It's a very segregated city, and I don't live like that. It's not my life. And it's a one industry town.

[B]

And clearly you like sort of breath.

[A]

Yes, I love, you know, I love art. I'm on corporate boards, which has been good. And I like fashion. And I mean, I. I like having diverse.

[B]

It's like curiosity.

[A]

Yes, it's curiosity. It's also. I'm a storyteller. You know, I need to understand culture. I need to understand what's going on and what people are thinking and anticipate some of the things that are happening so that I can be matching that with stories.

[B]

One of the other things I notice is you're very good at building relationships. And I worry about kids today, particularly in the world where they've grown up on social, where everybody talks about how social skills have eroded. What advice do you have for people? Because clearly, sort of relationships and social capital have been a big part of your success.

[A]

Very important. Relationships are very important. People work with people that they want to be around. Also, you just learn from other people. This business is a relationship business. At the end of the day, I mean, people hire people they like that they're comfortable. That's been part of the problem historically about access, is that people just hired their buddies. And that that has changed. I mean, still work to do, but it's changed a lot since, you know, when I started. So you gotta do it. If you really want to be in film and television, you need to go spend some time in la. Again, not my favorite place to live, but it's where the business is and you meet people and you get information and you learn on a daily basis. You don't have to stay there for your whole life, but you need to spend significant time there.

[B]

And then the other thing is mentorship. Right? I mean, it seems like you've definitely had mentors. I don't know that I had a specific mentor. And sometimes somebody would be like, why can't you be your own mentor? What advice do you have for people, sort of in that vein? Because that seems to have been a big part of your journey.

[A]

Huge. And I always felt I had a responsibility to pay that forward. So I have mentored a lot of people. Again, once I realized what the situation was, I put my foot in the door and was pulling people in after me. And then all of a sudden you look up and I. You know, at this point in my career, I have a lot of People who are now in their prime that I have known for 20 years. And that's lovely and gratifying and also as a practical manner is great.

[B]

Okay. You and I could have conversations endlessly. I've learned so much about you doing the research. I could keep you going, but I know you have a flight, so we're going to go to rapid questions. You ready?

[A]

Okay. All right.

[B]

What would be your karaoke or Walk on song?

[A]

First thing that came to my mind, and it's not really right, but is I will always love you just because I love that so much.

[B]

Okay, I'll bet.

[A]

But that's not my Walk on song.

[B]

Maybe your karaoke song.

[A]

Maybe. Maybe my karaoke. Maybe my karaoke song.

[B]

What's the food you'd bring to a potluck?

[A]

Fish.

[B]

All right, so if you weren't going to be a filmmaker or a lawyer, what would be another career that you would have chosen?

[A]

Oh, I don't know.

[B]

Maybe there is no answer to that for you.

[A]

Yeah, I don't. I figured that's enough. I don't know.

[B]

What are you reading, listening or watching Now?

[A]

I'm actually reading a book by SA Cosby that I'm really enjoying. It's my first time reading him. What am I? I'm kind of in between. But what have I enjoyed? Adolescence I thought was brilliant? I like Zero Day very much. I like paradise.

[B]

Yeah. You're not gonna be short on this list.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, last thing. What would people be surprised to learn about you who know you well?

[A]

The people who know me well? I don't know that they'd be surprised by a lot. The people who don't know me well are like, I can lay in the bed for a day. I like, I can turn off. Like. And people are always like, oh, you never. I'm like, no, you don't understand. I do know how to turn off. I don't do it enough. I. You know.

[B]

You definitely don't do it enough.

[A]

I don't do it enough, but I know how to turn off the phone and turn on the TV or the book and just kind of chill. Cause I think that's very important to reboot and replenish.

[B]

Okay, as we close, what's one piece of advice you think we should leave people with?

[A]

I think you have to get to the point where you can bet on yourself.

[B]

I like that. Well, thank you so much for coming on. It really was a conversation we could have just kept going on.

[A]

I know, I know.

[B]

I don't know why we didn't do this sooner.

[A]

Well, next time we do this, it'll be with cocktails.

[B]

Okay, Perfect.