← The Messy Parts
The Messy Parts
Debunking Myths About Careers, Generation Gaps, and The Power of Side Hustles: Sam DeMase
00:43:10
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- [00:00]
A
What are common misperceptions that sort of the boomer Gen Xers have of the younger workforce?
- [00:05]
B
I think they think Gen Z is lazy, entitled. They think that they don't care about work. Not true. None of that is true. It's a very different time now. I think young people now, the difference is they don't want work to be their entire life. Because making work your entire life doesn't get you where it used to. Whereas boomers used to work hard and get a house and, you know, get all these lovely things. Gen Z and millennials, we cannot have that. So our reality is very different to theirs. And I think that's an understanding that does not exist right now between boomers and Gen Z. They just see them as entitled.
- [00:41]
A
And what misperception do you think the younger group has about the older ones?
- [00:45]
B
No, no misperceptions. I think they have it correct.
- [00:56]
A
Today on the messy parts. We have on Sam demace. She's a clip career coach, speaker, author. You can find her on TikTok and Instagram @ a Power Mood where a million or so people are following her. What's really interesting about her is that she gives career advice and helps bridge the gap between the younger generation and the older generation. What we talked about was a little bit about her career journey and also we are gonna be leaving you with some very handy tips. How to negotiate a salary, how to deal with a toxic boss and how to leave a job or. Or just figuring out how to take your side hustle and make it into your full time gig. Sam, I'm so excited to have you on. We actually don't know each other, so I always appreciate people who don't know me saying yes.
- [01:43]
B
It's so lovely to meet you. Thank you so much for having me. The blue couch is gorgeous. I have a green velvet couch at my place, so I feel right at home.
- [01:51]
A
I started following you on TikTok and Instagram. Really? I'm probably more of an Instagram person. You do this amazing thing where you give a lot of advice. I thought we'd start before getting into that, which I definitely want to dig into with a little bit about you. Right. I think you grew up in Long Island. I read that you won an award for writing in high school.
- [02:10]
B
You did your research? Yes. I actually was born in Queens, so I'm native New Yorker. Never going to leave. This is my home for life. I'm now in Brooklyn. I did grow up on Long Island. My parents were actually still there in school. I was a big writer Big English nerd into literature, ed, editing, writing, proofreading. And I'm still very into writing, having written two books these days. So I feel very proud to have gotten to do that in a professional way. But, yeah, words are my thing. Chopping it up is my thing. As we say in Brooklyn, we like to chop it up. We like to talk, which I could do all day.
- [02:44]
A
And so you decide to go to nyu, Why'd you pick Galatin?
- [02:48]
B
Colloquially, we call it the school for gay misfits. Like, if you don't know what you want to do, if you're not sure what your path forward is, but you know, you have a lot of diverse interests and you want to kind of explore, explore those. Gallatin is a great option because you can design a program. So I did food studies, jazz voice, music theory, business, and entrepreneurship.
- [03:09]
A
Wow. Pretty good range.
- [03:10]
B
Very big range. I've got range.
- [03:12]
A
Well, that's interesting because actually your brand now is pretty consistent. So we'll have to talk about that because I'm very interested in that idea. So you graduate from college and you get a job at a not to be named fast food chain.
- [03:26]
B
That's right.
- [03:26]
A
Why did you decide to go into food services?
- [03:29]
B
I went with a brand that spoke to me. I really admire that brand. And I also think that I wanted to do something challenging as a first job. And taking a first job in management to me sounded exciting. Especially.
- [03:43]
A
You were a general manager.
- [03:44]
B
Well, I started as a manager, but quickly became an assistant general manager and then a general manager. It all happened kind of fast. But starting out in a managerial position, I had 70 team members under me.
- [03:55]
A
Wow.
- [03:56]
B
Day one.
- [03:57]
A
What did you do before that made them hire you? I mean, not just the degree. Right.
- [04:00]
B
Had worked a lot in food service prior. You know, barista, bartender, chocolatier, server. Back of house, front of house. So they liked the restaurant experience. I think they also liked that I had an entrepreneurial spirit and was somebody who wanted to take ownership and lead right out of the gate.
- [04:16]
A
Let's talk about that. How did they know that you had an entrepreneurial spirit?
- [04:20]
B
I was very sure of myself and very clear that I could handle whatever was thrown at me. Looking back, I'm like, hmm, interesting. They saw that I was willing to take on a lot of responsibility. Didn't have experience doing this. I'm like, were they trying to just get somebody in who was willing to jump into the chaos? Probably, but I was willing, and I think I really had the confidence to jump into something new and be fearless.
- [04:48]
A
Did you have a Working mom.
- [04:49]
B
Yeah.
- [04:50]
A
I'm always interested in what makes somebody be like, I need to make my own way, my own path.
- [04:55]
B
I think that comes from my mom and my grandma. My grandma was a single grandma, mostly was single for her entire motherhood, and my mom made that very clear in the narrative. So I saw that. I saw my mom as a very strong presence, kind of a domineering presence. My mom is. So I didn't necessarily want to go that route, but there's been a lot of independent, strong women in my life from the beginning.
- [05:18]
A
And when you decided to go to study something that was ambiguous, did they support you, or did they think that was a crazy idea?
- [05:25]
B
They were very supportive, very celebratory. They said, get after it. I think there was a somewhat of an undercurrent of a pressure of, you know, hey, make sure you have a vision. And I think I had always said, like, I want to own something, I want to run something. When I was a kid, I was always called bossy because I would, you know, be the leader. All right, girls, you here, you here, you in the back, you in the front. 5, 6, 7, 8. Let's go. You know, very that. And I was so embarrassed and ashamed of being called bossy by everybody, whether it was men, women, anyone. Everybody called me bossy. Sammy's so bossy. Look at Sammy. She's little boss. She's bossy girl. Looking back, I was a leader, but I felt ashamed about it at the time.
- [06:02]
A
I just want to say we left only one pillow on the couch today, and it seems like it was perfect for you. I did not know this backstory. Just for the record.
- [06:09]
B
I love that pillow.
- [06:10]
A
There's something about the blue couch that brings things out on people and including the pillow. So were there other messy parts to growing up besides this idea that you were a leader and being called bossy in a note as pleasant of a way that I would think of bossy.
- [06:24]
B
I didn't really know what to do with that at the time. You know, it didn't necessarily help build my confidence until later realizing that it was leadership and not bossiness at the time.
- [06:31]
A
When did you learn that?
- [06:33]
B
I didn't learn that until college because it continued to be societally reinforced. This idea of. And to your question, like, what else was challenging? I think the idea of shrinking and being a woman who doesn't take up space. So while my mom did raise me to be confident in myself and my abilities, she also had an old school school mentality of women do not take up space and she also raised me to be a yes girl. So, hey, kiss your uncle, kiss your grandpa, do this, do that. And I would always say, I don't want to, I don't want to. And she would be like, you have to. So I had to learn how to say no and how to advocate for myself. And my business is founded on self advocacy.
- [07:09]
A
How did you learn to say no?
- [07:10]
B
Now that's the journey right there. Not a lot of people know how to do that because women are set up to fail in that regard. In the way that we're raised societal expectations, women are socialized to be quiet. Say yes. If a man is intimidating to you, just appease Fawn. And that translates into, you know, workplace, home life, everywhere. So it's not a simple answer, but I think just small steps of saying no and advocating for myself and becoming who I was coming out, all of that really helped me to step into my power to be able to advocate for myself in a way that I didn't even know was possible when I was younger.
- [07:48]
A
Did you come out in college?
- [07:49]
B
I came out when I was 21. So just after.
- [07:51]
A
Just after. Okay, so we fast forward. You get a job as a manager, then a general manager at a restaurant. It's a fast food chain. So busy.
- [07:59]
B
Very busy, Very busy.
- [08:00]
A
What was that like for you?
- [08:01]
B
It was like being thrown into the fire. It was hard, but it was also really exciting to be making business connections, friends, learning my leadership style and discovering that I had a really powerful voice and I had something that some of the other leaders didn't have, which was this high eq, this empathy that I was able to bring to the table, which endeared me to a lot of the team. So our team was a lot of young people. And I was young at the time too. My age and your age.
- [08:33]
A
You're still young.
- [08:33]
B
I'm pretty sure I'm still young. I identify as young. Thank you. And I really felt like I could connect with them in ways that these other managers weren't. I think a lot of people had more of an authoritative leadership philosophy at the time there. However, what they were teaching was an empathetic leadership style, which came naturally to me. You know, you bring out the best in everyone. You bond with your team. You show up authentically every day at work, even though the work is nightmare hard some days.
- [08:59]
A
What does that mean, show up authentically? I mean, I love that we now have all these words. I just want to know what that actually means to you.
- [09:06]
B
For me, that means bringing my whole personality to Work and, like, talking with staff about what I have going on and asking them about what they have going on, instead of just coming in and saying, did you do inventory? Did you do this? Did you do that? Which is kind of what I was seeing. My approach was different. You know, I would say, hey, what's been going on? What's going on with your grandma? How did the surgery go? What are you watching on tv? What are you listening to? I love your nails. Where do you get them done? Oh, yeah, I just came from here. I just did this. Like we were connecting on a genuine, real level to show them that work isn't the be all, end all of our lives.
- [09:37]
A
Okay, so you stay there for, I think, about a year.
- [09:39]
B
Two and a half years, yeah.
- [09:40]
A
Oh, two and a half years. And then you pivot to a company called One Fine Stay, which was kind of like Airbnb at the high end of the market.
- [09:48]
B
Yes, right. That's right.
- [09:49]
A
I used to work at Hyatt, and we owned a part of One Fine Stay. So randomly, I do know something about One Fine Stay. What made you decide to make that pivot?
- [09:57]
B
That was a really conscious choice. Leaning into my superpowers. So in my role as a general manager, I had done a lot of people operations work, so hiring, firing, mentoring, development and training. I was like, I'm really good at the people stuff. I'm less good at the restaurant operations stuff. Struggled with inventory, struggled with some of that, but I was really good at the people element. So I said, you know what? I need to pivot. So I was able to pivot over and be a human resources and recruitment manager there, which was, like, really great experience.
- [10:26]
A
How did you find that job?
- [10:28]
B
It was just through classic job board channels, traditional job market, not like any backdoor referral. Nothing like that, just classic job market.
- [10:36]
A
By this point, did you have a mentor or somebody who guided you, or is that your mom or your grandmother?
- [10:41]
B
Throughout my life, I've had what I would call situational mentors. I haven't had, like, consistent, you know, somebody who I always go back to, but I've had situational mentors, and I've been a situational mentor for a lot of people.
- [10:52]
A
Wait, what is a situational mentor?
- [10:53]
B
I think for me, it's probably something I made up, but I say it a lot. Situational mentor is somebody who helps you through a specific time because their skill sets relate. So for me, I'm a situational mentor for women who need help advocating for themselves, whether that's in a relationship at work. You need to get a raise. You need to escape a toxic boss. You need to stand up to a colleague. I'm really good in those situations. I'm not a good mentor for every possible scenario. So if I was trying to transition right from restaurant operations to human resources, so I didn't have a situational mentor at the time, someone who had done exactly that, but I did have a mentor who had worked at the restaurant who I was close with, who helped me navigate that interview process.
- [11:29]
A
And was it hard to convince One Fine Stay about your pivot? Because they're like both hospitality, but you don't know anything about hr a hundred percent.
- [11:38]
B
And this is where I think my skills came in handy, of being able to smartly tell a story and to draw parallels between my experience at the restaurant and the value I could bring to the team at One Fine Stay. And I teach that now. I teach parallel pivoting, which is a term I believe I coined about how to switch careers successfully. What you do is, you know your superpowers and tell a powerful story about how your work experience that's different will actually add more value to the team than if you had had the traditional experience.
- [12:11]
A
It's so interesting because I often tell people, I was an executive in residence at Columbia a couple years ago, and I would tell young people to come up with a story that would demonstrate their superpower. You know, when I was in college looking for a job, I had put together this booklet and I'd nailed it to the Gap. And long story short, somebody from the Gap, in fact the CEO, called me, and I when I would tell the store this story to other people, it would demonstrate my ability to have a creative idea, sort of the ability to go for it. And that would then in turn be like, oh, I want this person on my team. Right. For the right person. And I think finding those stories to sort of demonstrate what you're calling your superpower can be a very effective tool in a moment when you're trying to land a job or pivot or anything like that.
- [12:58]
B
Exactly. Yeah. And you have to be specific and like, to your point, the story having a specific story. So I call it in my work now, a value proposition. So, like, instead of just being vague and saying, yeah, I think I could definitely do this job. I'm dedicated, I'm detail oriented, I'm smart, be more specific and have a value proposition written and ready. I like to use a framework based on my background in X and my experience in. Yeah, I help companies achieve abc. What are the results you achieve. So, like, for me, in my work, I have a few different value propositions, but right now, one of the big ones is based on my experience in human resources and leadership development and facilitation, I help clients embrace their superpowers and transform their confidence.
- [13:40]
A
And I would say I would need you to tell me a story, because they're like, lots of words, but I'm like, what does that actually mean?
- [13:46]
B
Totally. And then I could tell you a story about how that manifests or, like, what that looks like.
- [13:50]
A
It's hard for people graduating or even people pivoting to really understand what their superpower is. Like, how do you know what a superpower is? How do you even define that?
- [13:59]
B
It's really fun, I think, to go on this journey. And if you have questions, I think that's totally normal. If you're not confident in your superpowers, I recommend having a chat with your bestie, your mom, your grandma. Ask, what do I do better than anybody else? What are the things that I bring to the table? Start there. You can also take an assessment. Strengthsfinder assessment. Cliftonstrengths. That's a great one. If you have no idea what your superpowers are, ask a colleague. Read a performance review. But it's really about the things that you do better than anybody else. And also, I like to inject passions into it as well, because if you're passionate about it, that's going to amplify the superpower.
- [14:33]
A
Oh, I like that. I did this exercise once where I. I mean, I must have been in my 30s, maybe late 30s, where I went back and I read all my earlier performance reviews or recommendations somebody wrote me in college, and I began to see a theme. And then what I did was because I had worked in so many different jobs that I didn't have a performance review for all of them because some of them were shorter, too short to have a performance review. I then sent a. Not to all the people I work with and ask them if they would send me a paragraph.
- [15:00]
B
I love that.
- [15:00]
A
And it was just such an interesting exercise because you could find a through line in your story. Yes, that's just what you're really describing.
- [15:07]
B
Exactly. Ask your best friend to write your biography. And then it's really short in a paragraph or two. You'll be surprised about what they have to say. It's such a confidence.
- [15:16]
A
We're all gonna do that. We're all gonna be asking our best friend after listening to this episode. Okay, so then you pivot to one. Fine.
- [15:21]
B
Stay.
- [15:22]
A
How long did you say at one fine stay?
- [15:23]
B
I believe it was about two years.
- [15:25]
A
And what was that like?
- [15:26]
B
It was a great experience. You know, startup company, lot of really young, really smart people, completely different environment than a restaurant. A different brand of chaos.
- [15:35]
A
What does that mean?
- [15:36]
B
A startup is its own brand of chaos because you never know where budget is going to be allocated. Goals are constantly shifting, priorities are constantly changing. So you're just always on your toes. So that job taught me flexibility, thinking on my feet, and just being ready for anything. So I value that startup experience.
- [15:54]
A
Were there messy parts to that part of your journey?
- [15:56]
B
I think the messiest part of that was just like learning how to navigate ambiguity, especially from an HR standpoint. There's employee relations issues that are really sticky. And then there's this question of, can you do all this with a budget of $0? I was charged with, like, can you amp up our culture here? And I was like, sure, yeah. What's the budget? Oh, like zero dollars. And I'm like, let me, let me, let me work on that. So you have to figure out how.
- [16:20]
A
To make something with do that.
- [16:21]
B
Similar to what I had done at the restaurant, just talking to people, asking people, hey, what do you think the office needs? Hey, what would make you really excited to stay at this company long term? You know, asking the questions. And a lot of it comes down to people wanted better bonuses, more meaningful perks as opposed to just like a pizza party or office lunch. And meaningful ways to move up the chain, like professional development that would get people to the next level.
- [16:48]
A
And so what made you leave there and go back to the fast food company you'd worked at before?
- [16:52]
B
There was an opportunity that I simply could not pass up. And that opportunity called you? Yes, Somebody reached out to me from there. That is correct. This opportunity involved 75% travel.
- [17:04]
A
Wow.
- [17:05]
B
Which is something I never thought I would take on. But it sounded really exciting to travel around, open new restaurants, have a team under me, globally, global travel. So I said, I really want to do that.
- [17:18]
A
And it was in hr.
- [17:19]
B
This role, I would say, was a hybrid. Operations and people, resources, training and development. Which is one of the tricky things about being on the training team is you get pulled in all these directions and you're not sure who you're accountable to. Am I accountable to operations? Am I accountable to human resources? So that's quite messy, I believe, and it is at many organizations. But yeah, I could not pass up that opportunity.
- [17:40]
A
And so what was that like?
- [17:41]
B
That was the best. And I made some of the best friends of my life that I'm still friends with to this day. I had amazing teams under me. We became so close because we traveled the world together, and we got to go to Korea, Japan, less glamorous places like Sarasota, Florida, you know, everywhere. And the more we traveled, the closer we became. You know, some of my team had never been to Philadelphia, let alone Japan, Korea. People were traveling for the first time. So I got to have these experiences with them. And to be working and also having these meaningful life experiences, I was like, I won the lottery. This is incredible.
- [18:18]
A
What you're describing is a period where you're clearly working a lot, because in order to start things in a different place, it's like a 247 job. And yet you're also describing something that's all consuming. That clearly was a passion moment for you.
- [18:31]
B
Yes.
- [18:31]
A
You know, sometimes my kids say to me, like, oh, mom, you worked all the time. Or, you know, I don't want that. And I say to them, no, it was actually fun. And what you're describing sounds like it was fun for you.
- [18:41]
B
Very fun. And definitely a gateway drug into entrepreneurship, because I felt like an owner, because you're going into a site, you're there for two weeks, and you build it, and then you head out. And I love the building. My favorite part of entrepreneurship is building. So being able to build in that way, I think, is what inspired me to build eventually on my own. But I loved it.
- [19:02]
A
But there had to have been messy parts to that journey.
- [19:04]
B
Yeah.
- [19:05]
A
I mean, opening up things doesn't always go the way you want.
- [19:08]
B
Yeah. It was honestly the most stressful time, in addition to being the most fun. Also so stressful because I couldn't have a life, because you don't know when the plumbing's gonna get turned on. You don't know if the electricity is gonna be out. You don't know if you're gonna show up to the site, and it's a pile of rubble, and it's not actually a restaurant yet. Like, there was a lot of communication struggles. So, yeah, I had no life, and I struggled to just be able to show up and be myself every day because it was so chaotic and busy and stressful.
- [19:38]
A
But you stayed at that job for a while.
- [19:40]
B
Yeah, and I got promoted and moved up, and I was eventually a director. Messy also, though, in the sense that I had all these friends in the organization, and I feel like that can also be complicated, too, because you don't want to let them down. And then at certain points, I disagreed with the organization on certain things. And I felt like I couldn't make meaningful change. And then I'm letting my team down. And that was really messy and hard.
- [20:03]
A
Sometimes there'll be a situation where you have a friend who's a colleague or someone who works for you and they make changes and you have to let somebody go. I mean, that's, I think, one of the challenges about this idea of friends at work or you get promoted and now you're their boss. Like, there had to be messy moments, particularly if you have high eq.
- [20:19]
B
That definitely came up. I definitely had to fire people who I cared about. I'm actually really glad I had to do that. It's hard af. Like, it's difficult to look someone in the eye and be like, I've given you five chances. But the thing about that is you have to be transparent and authentic. So I would always give people that heads up. If you're on a path to being fired, it's not a surprise because we've had multiple conversations about your challenges, about areas you can grow, and that makes the conversation easier. It was always my goal to hug someone or have a handshake at the end of a firing. Doesn't always happen that way, but that was always my goal.
- [20:56]
A
I mean, having worked in hospitality myself, you had a lot of people who were younger than you. There's so much that gets written about sort of this younger workforce and how they're entitled or they need boundaries or, you know, there's just so much misunderstanding between the generations of some of the people who are in power and some of the people who are still coming up. What was that experience like for you?
- [21:17]
B
I found myself in a role where I was always bridging that gap. You know, I'm a millennial. I've worked with a lot of millennials and Gen Z and also older folks, Gen X and boomers. I have always been somebody who is advocating for the younger generation and explaining that to the older generation and saying, hey, where can we find harmony here? And translating things for them. And I think that's why I became close with a lot of the younger team and became a mentor, because I like to listen, I like to understand, and I like to help you be your best self, whatever it is you need.
- [21:47]
A
What are common misperceptions that sort of the boomer Gen Xers have of the younger work?
- [21:52]
B
I think they think Gen Z is lazy, entitled. They think that they don't care about work. Not true. None of that is true. It's a very different time now. I think young people now, the difference is they don't want work to be their entire life, because making work your entire life doesn't get you where it used to. Whereas boomers used to work hard and get a house and, you know, get all these lovely things. Gen Z and millennials, we cannot have that. So our reality is very different to theirs. And I think that's an understanding that does not exist right now between Boomers and Gen Z. They just see them as entitled.
- [22:28]
A
And what misperception do you think the younger group has about the older ones?
- [22:32]
B
No, no misperceptions. I think they have it correct. I think myself as a millennial, being raised by Boomer parents, I think we need a little more empathy from them. I think they're a little devoid of empathy because they're experiencing their own trauma that is unresolved. So what is the trauma they're experiencing? I believe that a lot of the Boomer generation who did not go to therapy has so much going on up here that they project a lot of negativity onto their kids and their kids kids. So that's a whole other.
- [23:01]
A
Wow, this is fascinating.
- [23:03]
B
I have, I have some strong opinions about that, but I think Gen Z, like, they want to know the why behind things. So if you want to come back to the office, for example, return to office. They will not accept a return to office mandate. That is simply a mandate. They need to know the why behind it. Okay, great. Why am I getting professional development opportunities? Do I get to work with a team in person? Just a reason. Otherwise it's perceived as.
- [23:25]
A
That's so interesting because I was doing research on another guest that's coming up who's a founder and she had the wherewithal to say, I am not a good manager. I'm a really good founder, but not a good manager, having worked in lots of different places, including for founders. Sometimes founders have a lot of vision, but are actually terrible at the people part of the equation. And she was saying, you know, I don't have time for the why because I'm working 247 trying to make things happen. This was not a boomer. And her whole thing was, you know, I just need you to do things and otherwise it's faster for me to go do it myself. Right. But there was a recognition that that actually made her not a great manager on a day to day basis.
- [24:02]
B
That's fascinating. And it doesn't have to be her. She would just delegate that to someone else. Have somebody else tell the why.
- [24:07]
A
You go back to the fast Food company, you're there, first stretch. What makes you decide to leave?
- [24:12]
B
It was many, many factors piling on and I think I could have left sooner, but I think I kind of was hanging on and trying to make it work because I loved all my friends that I worked with and I do love the company. But it became tough because I had started a business on the side.
- [24:30]
A
Oh, you had already started the business on the side?
- [24:32]
B
I already started, yeah.
- [24:32]
A
Did they know?
- [24:33]
B
Yes, they did. And they did not like it. They were not thrilled.
- [24:37]
A
Well, what did they say when? I mean, sorry, how did they find out? Let's talk about that for a second.
- [24:41]
B
Yeah, this is messy for sure. So plenty of folks where I worked had started side businesses. It was quite normal at the time and it's even more normal now to have a side hustle.
- [24:50]
A
Everybody has a side hustle, particularly from your generation. Generation, as far as I can tell.
- [24:53]
B
Exactly. Everybody has one. So I've of course, like, all right, I gotta dabble, I gotta like, get in here.
- [24:58]
A
And what was your side business at the time?
- [25:00]
B
So I started up a TikTok and an Instagram, a power mood, which was about advice, which is something I've always done. Give advice to younger women, give advice to my friends, my family. I'm the advice giver in my friend group and my chosen family. Like I'm the person everyone comes to. So I said, you know, I should start up an advice channel. So I was starting that up on the side and at the same time I was working as a director and trying to, you know, make a lot of things happen in the workplace, make positive change, you know, push for better equality and equity, like getting more women promoted. I was pushing for salary transparency within the organization.
- [25:36]
A
And they didn't like that?
- [25:37]
B
Not so much. I find that like a lot of organizations really don't love that. Like, I think that organizations will say we want somebody who will challenge the status quo, but then in practice it's not always desirable.
- [25:48]
A
So. So one, you're pushing in your role for just things you believe in. Two, you start this side hustle, which is a power mood, which actually has a lot of followers. Now this is such an informative moment, right, for people who have a side hustle. When did they find it and what did they say to you?
- [26:04]
B
I don't remember exactly when or how it was found, but I do recall being told like, hey, we don't like this. I had not signed any non compete or anything like that. Plenty of people had side hustles, but it was Made clear that, you know, it felt sort of like it was competing with their brand, which wasn't necessarily the case. You know, I'm just giving advice. I was talking about career stuff, self advocacy, how to.
- [26:27]
A
And you weren't mentioning the brand.
- [26:28]
B
Never, Never, never. Yeah, so it was really, for me, like not related. Like there wasn't a clear thread there. So I felt, I felt singled out. Cause there were so many people that had side businesses on the Internet, including, you know, many of my colleagues. And that was demotivating. Cause I was like, I'm trying to do something powerful here. I'm trying to mentor women. I'm trying to talk about self advocacy. I'm trying to like, you know, help. So it did, it did feel very like stifling.
- [26:51]
A
Did they call you into a meeting and have this conversation?
- [26:53]
B
I got written up. I got a formal write up, which I had never been written up for anything in my life. Being, you know, an honors student, somebody who loves to people please and be that good girl. So for me, getting a write up, this was sort of like a good, a good push. Kick out the door for me a little bit.
- [27:11]
A
I'm gonna go with it. Had to have just felt terrible when you got it.
- [27:15]
B
It did it feel bad, super shitty. You know, I felt kind of betrayed, to be honest, by them. Because I had given my heart and soul and worked really hard. Great metrics. Delivering amazing metrics for the company. The team. I actually had a team of leaders under me that I had retained for five plus years. No other director or manager on the team had that kind of retention on their team.
- [27:36]
A
And in the write up, did they say you needed to stop?
- [27:38]
B
I don't think it was so much that. I think it was more like tone it down or something to that effect. Like, you know, reprioritize the work. Work.
- [27:45]
A
Because they felt like you were putting energy in something else and really you should be putting that energy into the job.
- [27:50]
B
Yeah, for sure. And it was tough because like I said, hey, like I want to take this feedback, but can I get examples? Like work related examples, Like I understand like a write up if my work is suffering, but there were no examples of work. They were like, no, your work is great, your work is solid, your team is great.
- [28:07]
A
This is so interesting because you're actually in the HR function. So this is the kind of conversation you'd be having with somebody. So now it's being turned on you.
- [28:17]
B
So it feels bad.
- [28:18]
A
But you've actually learned to advocate for yourself. So you're pushing back, you're not just taking it.
- [28:22]
B
Exactly. Now I'm in my era where I'm starting to really fight back.
- [28:27]
A
And how long from that point to when you left?
- [28:29]
B
It was about six months because I had gotten a book deal. And so when I got the book deal I was like, bye.
- [28:37]
A
So you have started your own sort of platform on social, giving advice. How long from that point to when you get called in to when you leave, like how long of a period was that?
- [28:50]
B
That would have been two years.
- [28:52]
A
Two years?
- [28:52]
B
Yeah.
- [28:53]
A
And did you know when you started that that you were going to eventually leave?
- [28:57]
B
I didn't. I mean I definitely was hoping that it could turn into something, but I didn't necessarily see it taking over and becoming like my full time business.
- [29:07]
A
And did something inspire you to try that side hustle?
- [29:10]
B
Yes. My negative experiences working in corporate, in all my various corporate roles, I've had negative experiences where I've had to kick down doors, get angry, deal with inequity. And just like a lot of those negative experiences pushed me to start talking about it. So I think I needed an outlet to like say things that were not being heard in my current place of work.
- [29:32]
A
So you, you get a book deal and that prompts you to say, you know what, F this with this company, I'm leaving.
- [29:37]
B
Right. Because I had a deadline and I said I can't work in this very demanding full time and write an entire book at the same time.
- [29:44]
A
Did the economics of the deal on the book and what you were doing allow you to go do that?
- [29:49]
B
Exactly, yes. And plus I had saved. So I was, you know, privileged enough to be like prepared to do that and make a swift exit. So I feel very lucky I was able to.
- [29:58]
A
So if you could give advice to somebody who's in a job they don't like. You know, I had a career column once and somebody say when do I know that it's time to go? What's your answer to that?
- [30:08]
B
Leave, leave sooner rather than later. There's nothing wrong with looking and seeing what's out there and applying. If you're asking the question be done, get out.
- [30:19]
A
And if you're young and applying in what is a tough job market where it seems like people are machine generating hundreds of resumes and AI is picking hundreds of applications online, what is the advice you would give to somebody? Because there's such a terror that the first job is going to be the defining job for the them.
- [30:36]
B
Yeah. And it doesn't have to be. I think right now job hopping is so normalized. It's really easy to move jobs. Doesn't matter how long you were there, it just matters the impact that you made. So as long as you can articulate that like, that's really all that matters. And if you have a value proposition that's strong, that will get you in the door for interviews.
- [30:53]
A
It's interesting because in my generation, job hopping was very much frowned upon and I definitely moved a lot of jobs. I often joke I've had over 60 jobs. But you do think that that's more normal now?
- [31:04]
B
Very much so. And I know some recruiters. I used to be a recruiter. If you can add power to the story, if you can say, like, I added value to this team and be clear about that. If you didn't do anything in the job, that gets a little more messy. But if you can be very clear about it, there is nothing wrong with being at a job for a year.
- [31:20]
A
Or less and having this conversation. We both make it seem so easy. It's so easy to pivot or, you know, have a side hustle that then becomes your full time job. And it's even more glamorous than the job you have. It's a hard job market, right? And there's a lot of fear out there. You know, we read headlines about layoffs. How does somebody who is risk averse or reading those headlines get over that hump?
- [31:44]
B
Take it slow, take it easy. If you're employed right now and you're kind of afraid, it's low risk and high reward to start searching, I think a lot of people forget. If you want to start something up on your own, do that while you're employed. Start up your little freelance side hustle. Start small. You don't have to have a logo and all these things. Just like, like start working on something that brings you joy in small doses and that can help you see the light and kind of move forward from where you're at in the dark place.
- [32:10]
A
It actually gives you hope.
- [32:12]
B
Exactly.
- [32:13]
A
So now we enter into your latest chapter, right? You have over 800,000 followers. You're on TikTok and Instagram. I mean, it's funny, I gave a talk about a podcast at a 50 plus community over the weekend. The first question was, what is a podcast and where do I find it?
- [32:28]
B
Ooh, it's fascinating.
- [32:31]
A
And then the next question, after I showed them a clip of the podcast on YouTube, they said to me, if you're mentoring people, why are you not dressed up? I mean, it's just such an interesting generational moment. And I was like, well, we're trying to have a casual conversation on the couch. I don't usually dress up for that. But you know, there is this incredible generational divide. And so here you are, you know, living out loud sort of on social media. What is that like? Because in some ways your life is public now, right? It's almost like you're a celebrity, you are your brand. And then what is it like just on a day to day basis for people who don't really know, particularly older people who might be listening, who are looking for what is a podcast. What is your job, right? Because they say to me all the time, they're like, we meet all these young people or we go sit down with our family and we never know what they do.
- [33:17]
B
Sometimes I'll be like, yeah, my job is giving advice on the Internet. And a lot of people are like, what? For the older generation? I'll say, I'm a consultant. Consultant, which I am. I work with businesses, I work with individuals, I dibble, I dabble. But I also show up authentically on the Internet and give advice to strangers. So it's, it's a mixed bag. I would say the hardest part is sharing the messy stuff and like talking about, you know, coming out or talking about my mental health journey or talking about days where I don't want to film and I don't want to post because it's hard and it's exhausting.
- [33:49]
A
It's interesting because your brand is really about being strong. It's about power, right? And yet we all have messy parts. So in those days where it's hard to film or you don't want to get up, how do you push through?
- [34:00]
B
I give myself permission to not. You don't always have to be on your power mood 24 7. That'd be unrealistic. It'd be crazy. So I give myself permission to rest. And that's hard. That took me a while to get to that place because I used to just want to work and work and push through and power through and go, go, go. So I reject that mentality. And if I need to rest, I need to shut things down, I'll do it. And sometimes I'll talk about it, you know, on stories or on TikTok or whatever. This is what's going on with me today. If you're feeling the same way, like take a mental health day.
- [34:32]
A
And do people respond to that?
- [34:33]
B
Absolutely, yeah, people. I think people want to hear that. I think people want to hear that it's okay in the dystopian times we live in that it's like, okay to take a rest, take a breath. You don't have to be confident 24 7. You don't have to be delivering and productive 24 7.
- [34:46]
A
Was it hard to come out?
- [34:48]
B
I was nervous to make a coming out post online because it just feels like the ceremonial thing. Straight people don't have to come out. Why do I have to come out? That's a good point. Yeah. But the response was, like, overwhelmingly positive, and it ended up being, like, my most liked post of the year. I was really moved.
- [35:06]
A
So you're learning almost to be even more authentic online. Right, because it's hard. Yes, because we all sort of feel judged. Right. And so this is your place of work. Online is, in fact, your place of work. It's like showing up at Hyatt on a date.
- [35:20]
B
Yeah. And I think, like, the more authentic I became, the more I liked my work and the more I found my authentic clients.
- [35:27]
A
You found your people?
- [35:28]
B
I found my people, yeah. When I was hiding parts of myself or, like, not sharing certain things about whether it's mental health, queerness like that actually pushes people away and also draws in the wrong people. So once I figured out, like, okay, I'm just gonna go 100% all in, be my full self online and in real life, that actually draws your people to you. And then I started finding my ideal client. I started getting better speaking opportunities. I started getting better brand deals. Like, things started to fall into place in ways that I couldn't have strategized.
- [35:59]
A
I'm gonna have to ask you about your mental health journey. Also something I didn't know anything about in my research for you. And as you know, I go deep. What was that?
- [36:06]
B
I think like a journey of experiencing anxiety and depression and not having necessarily access to therapy or medication, because in my family, it wasn't spoken about. So I just really wasn't aware, like, what my options were. But then I did eventually get into talk therapy and eventually got into medication.
- [36:24]
A
You know, I'm gonna have to unpack this because, you know, I know a lot about mental health issues. What period were you feeling anxious and depressed, and what did that look like? Cause, I mean, I'm definitely somebody. My son likes to say that I channel my anxiety into work. So, you know, if I'm anxious, the first thing I do is, like, get on the computer and start working. How did that anxiety show up when you were busy? Cause frankly, when you're busy all the time, you have no time to process anything. It's like you're just hiding it all someplace.
- [36:49]
B
Yeah. And for me, it showed up as insomnia, like, or as physical stress, like, oh, I can't breathe. You know, insomnia. You know, I could not sleep. I was up all night, all hours. I'm like this, Something is wrong here. The body will tell you what's going on. And that's what happened for me.
- [37:06]
A
I love talking about it because I think it's the thing to normalize since so many people actually struggle. I guess that's why we're doing the messy parts. So now you actually have a deal with ZipRecruiter. Like, you have brand deals like, tell me what that's like.
- [37:19]
B
I love working with ZipRecruiter. So like I said, I'm a consultant. I represent them as career expert on behalf of job seekers. So I do job seeker advocacy, career advice, you know, salary negotiation, all of those things. I talk to a lot of media outlets, we talk to Forbes, Business Insider, NBC, Time, you name it. And we talk about the job market. We talk about how job seekers seekers can carve a path forward. Even in these current times.
- [37:43]
A
Do you find that there are more people of your age or younger starting businesses?
- [37:47]
B
Yes. It's hard to get into a corporate job right now unless you know somebody or you have eight months to apply. What you can do tomorrow is start up your own thing. So I think it's really empowering to see freelance and consulting really rising for.
- [38:02]
A
People who are in a job. Right. And they need that salary. Really, their side hustle isn't enough for, you know, they still need to get promoted. Right. I like to have a plan, a plan B and a plan C. Cause you don't quite know what's gonna work out. What advice do you have for them to keep performing at the job and moving up while also sort of being open to other things that the universe might have in store for them.
- [38:24]
B
I would ask them, can you lean into the things you like about your job and can you backburner some of the things you hate? Because when you lean into the things you like about it and are good at, you're gonna produce better results for you and the company. And that takes like, some conscious thinking, like, o, okay, what am I good at in this job? What do I actually like doing? You might have to talk to your boss, carve that out, say, hey, these are my passion projects. I want to dedicate more time here. These are the results I'm expecting to see.
- [38:49]
A
What do you do if you have a boss Who's a toxic boss?
- [38:52]
B
Oh, my gosh. I get asked this question every day.
- [38:56]
A
It's amazing how many of them are out there, apparently.
- [38:58]
B
Yeah, there's so many. I think it starts with a dialogue with the toxic boss, unfortunately. And a lot of people don't want to hear that. But I think you do need to open up a dialogue with them as a first step, because you don't know whether they're gonna be receptive or not to that dialogue. And you at least have to do it so you can tell HR that you tried. Cause it's the first thing HR is gonna say to you. They're gonna say, well, did you talk to them? So you have to talk to them first and say, hey, this is what's going on. This is how you're making me feel. And this is why the work isn't getting done the way it could be. It's about the work at the end of the day, not as much about your feelings. You can express it if you're comfortable. But I always like to say, if we could work together in this way, we would be set up for success and the work would be better.
- [39:40]
A
I would say the other very important note is to take notes, because if it doesn't go the way that you would like it to go, you need to have documented that conversation, document everything.
- [39:50]
B
I'm a big advocate for documenting everything. Timestamps, receipts. Because when you go to hr, you're gonna need to say, these are the things I experienced with my boss on these dates at this time. This is what they said.
- [40:01]
A
The other thing we need to talk about is you get an offer. What's your advice when you get that phone call and they say you've been given the offer?
- [40:09]
B
First of all, that's so exciting. So I always say you can express gratitude and ask for what you're worth in the same sentence. So just say, thank you so much for this offer. I'm so excited about the possibility of joining. Can you send me everything in writing so I can get back to you with questions? You don't accept over the phone, but you do show gratitude and excitement. You need to review everything first, and you need to negotiate.
- [40:29]
A
Okay, let's talk about why is it important to negotiate?
- [40:31]
B
I think it's a common misconception, especially in the job market and the economy right now, like, don't negotiate, but that it's the opposite. Companies expect you to negotiate, even right now, even in this current moment. Like, I've helped my clients land jobs in this market, and we've advocated for more and gotten it. So companies expect you to negotiate. I always say that.
- [40:52]
A
Well, I mean, and I would say as somebody who's made a lot of offers or who had teammates who've made offers, we always know that we have wiggle room in the offer. Nobody comes to you with their best offer out the gate.
- [41:03]
B
Exactly. And I've said that so many times from working behind the HR desk, the recruiter desk, the hiring manager desk. We always have a little bit of wiggle room for the right candidate.
- [41:12]
A
And even if they don't have wiggle room, you're indicating that you're ambitious in that moment.
- [41:17]
B
Exactly. It's a win win. Because a lot of people say, well, what if they rescind the offer to that? I say it's extremely rare. And you just dodged a bullet. Because if they rescind an offer, imagine what they would have been like when you were trying to advocate for your raise the next year. They would be a nightmare to work with Them. Them. That's correct. You.
- [41:34]
A
You've learned something about them. Okay, my final question before we go into rapid fire is what's the best way to resign a job?
- [41:41]
B
The best way to resign is to do so briefly and elegantly. You know, to just say, I've really enjoyed my time here. I've appreciated learning from you. I'm ready for my next opportunity. My last day is going to be August 28th.
- [41:57]
A
And don't send that in an email.
- [42:00]
B
It really depends. It really depends. If you're working a corporate job, I would say have a to face with your boss, set up a meeting and just communicate that and say, I'll follow this up with my resignation letter in writing. Now, if you have a toxic boss situation, you're terrified that they're going to have a meltdown or your safety's at risk. You can send an email and copy hr.
- [42:19]
A
I'm with you on that. But we're going to hope nobody has a toxic boss that everybody can elegantly say, I'm moving on to my next thing. Okay, we're going to do rapid fire, a karaoke or walk on song.
- [42:29]
B
You'd pick Valerie by Amy Winehouse. House.
- [42:31]
A
Nice food you'd bring to a potluck.
- [42:34]
B
Chocolate chip cookies.
- [42:35]
A
An alternate career you would have picked choreographer. What are you watching?
- [42:39]
B
Couples therapy.
- [42:40]
A
What would somebody be surprised to learn about you?
- [42:43]
B
I do line dancing.
- [42:44]
A
One last piece of advice you'd leave everyone with.
- [42:47]
B
Ask for more.
- [42:48]
A
Amazing. It was so amazing to have you on the couch. It was even better than I could have imagined.
- [42:53]
B
Thank you so much for having me on the couch. It was amazing.
- [42:55]
A
Thank you for listening to. To the whole episode. And you know what I'm gonna tell you? Subscribe. Like, listen, review all those things and tell ten friends.