← The Messy Parts
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- [00:00]
A
The most growth comes from failure, which is easy to say, not so great to feel. When that happened, did you find like your phone stopped ringing? People looked at you differently? Did that happen to you?
- [00:11]
B
Probably. Well, first of all, I will say the one thing, being on the business side of fashion, I've got good friends from fashion, but I had my own life.
- [00:22]
A
Well, that's because twice you actually prioritized
- [00:25]
B
your personal life, me and my husband,
- [00:28]
A
which is a great lesson, actually.
- [00:30]
B
And that's why I say make sure your network is solid. What is the thing that gives you the happiness? And knowing it's there makes you feel grounded.
- [00:47]
A
Today on the messy parts we're going to have on Sojin Lee. She was one of the early executives at Net, A Porter, founder and CEO of Toshi. And let me tell you, while she's pivoting to the world of food, she's going to give us a piece of advice that I don't think anyone who's been on the podcast has given us so far. You're going to want to watch this. Well, first of all, Sojin, I'm so excited to have you here. I'd like to start at the beginning because I want to know who the young Sojin was. Right. You were born in Korea, you grew up in la. Take us back and just give us a picture of what you were like when you were younger.
- [01:24]
B
So I was born in Korea, in Seoul, Korea, in very informative years, in a working class family where they really must have enforced the sort of cultural aspects of what it means to be Korean.
- [01:40]
A
What does that mean?
- [01:41]
B
It means it's sort of the emphasis around respect. Know your place, you're not the center of attention. So I am the oldest of four, but I left when I was six, but fully formed internally with that kind of mechanism. And because of my father's job, we moved to Europe. So I grew up in England, in Taunton, Somerset and London.
- [02:06]
A
Wow.
- [02:07]
B
And then we moved to Lausanne, Switzerland, and then we moved to Madrid, Spain, and then to Nairobi and then eventually landed in California, in la, in Los Angeles. And because wherever I went, I was usually the only one, I really had to learn. It was more a fear and survival to find a way to connect and to be liked and to fit in. And there was language barriers because my mother, who was primarily responsible for raising us, bless her, we weren't anywhere long enough for her to take the time to learn the language. And to be fair, her English is good, but even after 30 years of living Los Angeles, her English is not fluent. And I believe you'll find that with several or a lot of immigrant parents or children. So I was constantly the translator. So you have a lot of responsibilities because it comes with. Do what your parents say. And then on top of it, you have the kind of bicultural. There is a struggle between, you know, the traditional expectations and then what we have, I guess, embraced when we moved into the West. So it's a constant.
- [03:26]
A
What age were you when you got to la?
- [03:28]
B
So I started in middle school. So you're really testing me. So what's middle school? Maybe like 11, 13, 12, 13, something like that.
- [03:37]
A
So I'm originally from Iran. We had this conversation and we moved.
- [03:41]
B
Which is la, That's Terra Angeles.
- [03:44]
A
I will say we did not move to Terra Angeles. I joke that now my parents didn't want us to be the Shahs of Sunset, so that we moved to Northern California. So I thank Bravo for that clarity. But, you know, we moved to Paris and then Lafayette, sort of East Bay, California. And like you, I was young and I was just trying to fit in. Now I spoke English and my parents did speak English, so that was helpful for them. But in the middle of the hostage crisis, it was traumatic for different reasons, but I think there is this desire to fit in, especially when you're a kid. And I remember saying to my mom, like, could you just carry a bag like the other moms, or show up to PTA meetings just to fit in? And as the oldest, like, how did that shape you? Because you must have had this incredible sense of responsibility besides the heritage that you're talking about.
- [04:32]
B
I know that I was enjoying my childhood, but I have always felt a sense of responsibility. There's an instinctual sort of mothering that I think comes from having that type of responsibility since I was so young. And absolutely a resentment towards it as well.
- [04:53]
A
It's a mixed bag.
- [04:54]
B
It's a mixed bag because sometimes you question, I don't know if you ever saw that film, the Joy Luck Club, of course. So there's that daughter who always gives the largest pieces away of the food and then she keeps the smallest. Right? And that's who she is in the family. And that's how I felt being in the family. And then sometimes I'd be like, oh, my God, like, I'm never going to be seen with respect. I'm never going to be seen as that person if I'm constantly giving things away. And am I being taken advantage of?
- [05:29]
A
That's so interesting.
- [05:30]
B
Clearly I wasn't. It was all internal, right?
- [05:33]
A
Of course, But I wonder, do you feel like that behavior transferred into the workplace for you? Because I think about that, like how you present at work, which a lot of it is obviously from my childhood, probably like you, where I'm not trying to dominate in a room and I watch other leaders where they're filling the room. And sometimes I've had a boss say to me, like, why are you not being more present in that room? And I'm thinking to myself, well, since you're doing that, I'm reading the room and receding to give you that space. Do you find that that played out for you later in work?
- [06:07]
B
Probably in some ways I'm not even aware of it to be perfectly honest. I think subconsciously you can't help yourself, right in the way that subconsciously I can't help doing things that I know are because I am Korean. When it comes to work, that's where I feel very confident. And I think that comes from this kind of middle class family. So when I was young, we'd go back to Korea during the summers and my mother's side were in the garment business. So there was a mini factory in the basement of my grandparents house and I would go down there and I would learn to sew and I would hang out with the workers and then we would get up at 2 in the morning to go to Namdaemun Sijang, which is a wholesale market where my aunts had different stalls and they would sell wholesale the designs that they had created to the retailers. And then they would go and sell them on, you know, better streets or whatever. So I loved doing that. So I would get up at 2, go with my aunts, I'd earn money and then at I think it was like 10am when that part of it was over, I would then run around spending my money. So I ended up in fashion. I, you know, and I'm going to be very honest, I don't think it's because I woke up as like I'm meant for fashion.
- [07:22]
A
Well, it wasn't because you watched Devil Wears Prada and you felt like, Miranda, I need to be here.
- [07:27]
B
It wasn't that at all. It was more, I'm not in a position as a person, whether it's good or bad to go, I have a mission in life. Like I have to be a musician or else I'm gonna die. I wasn't that. I was more like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I just know whatever it is, I'll do it well.
- [07:43]
A
So you start off At Chanel.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So not just any fashion brand.
- [07:47]
B
Yeah.
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A
And what's interesting is you had a few different roles, but it wasn't sort of the creative side. You were interested in sort of the analytics and the mechanics. What do you think made you interested in that piece of the business?
- [08:03]
B
So I did have a true interest in data.
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A
But why do you think that is?
- [08:09]
B
I think it's because I felt everything else was out of control. I didn't have control over certain decisions the majority of my life because being Korean, being the eldest, choice is not given to you. You're just told what to do. And so that was built into me. And I like one plus one equals two. I like to think of the end and then reverse engineer. So there's a bit of the control freak type A in there, which is what's the path. There is a creative side of me that I've tried to express and when I do express it in some of my other businesses, I can do it. It's joyful. I might even be better over there than I am, you know, on that side. But I did have this pressure to go, well, if I'm going to be in fashion, I want to be on the side of fashion. That is the Korean acceptable side of fashion, which is, you know, numbers and business. And so there was that following me somehow. And even now at this age, I'm like, my God, like the, the things you carry. Right. And if I. The things I knew now about why, where, when, back then, it probably would have helped inform better decisions or just kindness to myself is probably a bigger way.
- [09:23]
A
I say that that's like a privilege. Right? I mean, it's a privilege that comes with what you've earned to get to this seat. Because really you're just trying to survive, whether it's to fit in or to just make it work at work. Right. So you said something interesting about being kinder to yourself, like something that you've clearly reflected on. I think it would have been hard to be kinder to yourself because we were all running to just survive.
- [09:46]
B
But.
- [09:47]
A
But we had this question the other day with Sally Sussman who was on. And interestingly, when we posted this question about, you know, what's the advice you would give to your 35 year old self? Her advice also was be kinder to yourself. And a lot of people sort of responded to that being like, okay, boomer. As if somehow we don't understand that, which I don't know. I mean, in some ways I think it's a level of Forgiveness that you're giving to yourself and to people who
- [10:13]
B
are coming up, I think there's so many shades of gray on what that means. So I will say amongst all of that, I'm Gen X and Gen X is just get on with it. It never occurred to me that being Korean, being female, being all these things was going to get in my way. It probably did. I just wasn't aware of it. I didn't make an issue of it. I didn't hide behind it. I didn't use it as a tool. You know, we were growing up driven a lot of times in industries that were, you know, ruled through fear, it's not good enough. You're going to lose your job. I'm going to ignore you, whatever those things were. And so when I talk about, you know, I wish I'd given myself kindness, there's two elements of that. One is everything will be okay. And that was the fear. Because at that age, you don't have enough experience yet where you think, oh, my God, if I do lose my job, it's the end of the world. So you really hurt. And the fear is so extreme. And kindness is more saying, you're not the only one. Put it into perspective. Take a breath, go for a walk. Make sure you've got a good friend support system. The sun will come up tomorrow and you'll figure it out. And the other aspect of it, I think, is kindness to yourself and going. It's not always about you. Don't internalize it. The kindness comes from going, well, why did that happen? And why is that person responding to me that way? Or so if you contextualize ends up being a solution. So you go, oh, I understand it better, you know.
- [11:51]
A
No, I understand.
- [11:52]
B
Unless you've committed a crime.
- [11:54]
A
Yes. Because, I mean, we've had people on who've been fired. We've had people on. I mean, in fact, Mickey Drexler still talks about the moment where he was fired from the Gap, right. And he's like, enormously successful. I think it's hard not to feel it personally, especially I think, when you give it your all, which in order for us to have survived in these jobs, there was no neutral drive. Cause you wouldn't have survived. Tell me about your decision to go to Net a porter. Because you went after the crash, not before the crash. Right. And as somebody who worked in the early days of the Internet, in 95, you know, I watched it skyrocket and then sort of have a moment of setback. So it was a decision that many would not have made. What made you decide to join Net a porter in that window.
- [12:37]
B
When you work in data, you recognize patterns and trends. And so I feel life is. You have a little bit of an advantage if you can start recognizing patterns because then you can predict certain things. But obviously in America we were having the boom, the bubble. There was, I mean, lux look, Lux, finder, eluxury, you name it. Everybody had a website, things were selling. I was at the time commercial director at Bottega Veneta. So I was actively looking for distribution through E commerce simply also because from a data perspective, an operational. I was like, oh my God, one to many. How exciting, right? And the data flow of that is so exciting. So I was already hooked on the possibility of what this could provide. So that's the business side then, the personal side. Because I was young enough where I wanted to be successful. I was ambitious, but because of my own desires and needs growing up, I always knew a relationship was important to me. I met my now husband back then and I was 27. So when net deporter and I met Navi Massenet and of course, you know, it's going to come to Europe, it'll take some time because the Europeans take. So, you know, it's a kind of a flow. It was a no brainer.
- [13:53]
A
Did you meet Natalie through your now husband?
- [13:55]
B
No. So I met Natalie in the Bottega Veneta showroom in Milan. So they showed up to say, we want to launch this business. It's E commerce, but a magazine format. Not to take away from it, but it was already happening. So I was like, of course it's going to happen. So therefore it was a great opportunity. I love the magazine format.
- [14:17]
A
So.
- [14:17]
B
So that really was different and inspiring. And I was dating my husband and I just thought, my God, I'm in a position. He's in London, I'm in New York. And I'd been trying to figure out ways to get to Europe because New York as a single woman back then could be exhausting. You're burning candles at both ends. You're out every single night. And I just got to a point where I am very much a homebody. So I was like, oh my God, this is exhausting. And I'd love to just be in a relationship and I'd love to just.
- [14:43]
A
So it solved two problems. You got to move to London and. And join Metaporte.
- [14:47]
B
So my point is it wasn't like I had some amazing plan and it worked out. It was more like, oh, there's A trend going on. I met this guy, I need to get to London to be with this guy because he was on a position to move. So I just threw it out to the universe, like I need to find a way to Europe. So I started, you know, interviewing, asking around, even went to Chanel, you know, was interviewing with Ralph Lauren, like you name it. And then I met Natalie and we exchanged information. And then I was going to London in to be with my husband for a weekend from Milan and I was organizing a dinner. I invited her and she said, well, what are you doing? And I said, I'm looking to find another opportunity. And she said, oh my God. So I met her, I met the other three co founders and then they offered me the first sort of executive founding team position. So I joined and I got my visa, I got a great startup opportunity, which to me was a no brainer. And worst case scenario, startup implodes. I can go to Prada, I can go to. They're all there. But very importantly, I was driven by love. So it was no master plan.
- [16:00]
A
So that's actually really interesting, right? Because I think that people who listen or people who are just living their lives, they always feel like everybody else has a plan. At least I used to feel like everybody else has a plan but me. I wish I was so driven to be an artist that I was willing to starve. Like, where's that thing that I'm willing to die for, right? If you were with somebody now who's sort of struggling with that, right. We know there's been lots of layoffs, we know there's been so many pivots and people just reevaluating what they want out of life. What do you think, looking back was the lesson in that? Because you know, it was a risk when a startup at a time where that business wasn't doing well, like what's the takeaway somebody should take from that?
- [16:39]
B
I think it's taking a step back and being really honest with yourself about the priorities. And at a certain age it's not even having to think about it. You feel it because as you're developing, I mean, I'm speaking as a female, I have a lot of emotions that were driving me finding that opportunity to move to London and be with Net A porter. I was super lucky. But my primary feeling of wanting to move out of New York was me getting tired of New York, exhausted, not meeting anyone. The fact that I had met this wonderful person, but he was, you know, sitting in London. So I think you and your brain are These very powerful mechanisms in which if you go, I'm going to get
- [17:24]
A
there, because, you know, somebody else would be like, I'm not moving across the ocean for a guy or taking a job that may not work out. At the same time, you must have also prioritized security. Having grown up moving around. Right. Being the eldest, feeling responsible. How did those two things work for you?
- [17:44]
B
Well, London, English speaking, fast growing economy at the time, you know, E commerce can translate anywhere. I had so many friends already in London. So the concept for me was it wasn't to move there and lose my independence, it was to go there to fulfill part of my desire to be in a happy relationship. But it would never take away from who I was. So I already knew, like, oh my God, this is even better. I'm going there with a job. So if I don't like him, I'm good, I can stay there and I will have a life and I will take care of myself. So that's always been important to me. And that certainly comes from being Korean and watching a mother who never had a job. And you know, fine, I'm not even judging it. But ultimately, you know, she is reliant on that situation.
- [18:38]
A
Comes back to control for you.
- [18:40]
B
It is. And I was like, and I'm not gonna. And you know, I remember being in the kitchen very young in Encino, California and they were having a party and all the women were in the kitchen and all the men were having the fun in the living room, drinking beer and having. And doing karaoke. So I don't know how to cook to this day because I made a decision and I said, I'm not getting stuck in here with you. I'm going out there where the music is.
- [19:02]
A
That's so interesting.
- [19:03]
B
And it's been a fight with my mom my whole life.
- [19:05]
A
I have a vivid memory of a party and an Iranian party and the women were in the kitchen and the men were outside talking business. And I was like, but I want to be talking about that.
- [19:15]
B
Yeah, like, I want to talk.
- [19:17]
A
I want to hear what it's like working at McKinsey. Like, why am I in the kitchen?
- [19:20]
B
Yeah, I love my girlfriends, but I have found, because I've been noticing it more that when we are in situations where the social groups I somehow end up navigating to where the guys are. And I don't know what, what that is. So I clearly must have some masculine energy in there somewhere.
- [19:42]
A
That's a super interesting thing to think about. Okay, so tell us about Net a Porter. So you go there and what happens?
- [19:49]
B
Yeah, so I go there and we are like nine, maybe 10. So small. And there's a tiny artist studio off the Kings Road, which is in Chelsea. You know, we had a system where if an order came through, you would hear like, ding. And if someone had bought a pair of Jimmy Choos, because I think we had maybe at the time 20 brands and the Jimmy Choos were above my head. So when that order would come in, I'd climb onto my chair and find the size and then take it downstairs to this tiny little cupboard where we would then iron it, ribbon it, box it, ship it. The whole process was manualized and very small. So to see that evolution was incredible. And the big part of my job, I was just completely responsible for the entire open to buy.
- [20:38]
A
Wait, what does open to buy mean?
- [20:39]
B
Open to buy means, like, this is the budget for the season. So spring, summer or fall, winter, and each season you'd have a budget and what you can spend to go out there to buy what in the hopes that you make the right choices so that then you can sell them to your customers and look for return on that. And hopefully you're in the kind of 65% sell through. I don't know if that's still the number today because I've been out of it for so long, but back then, 65% sell through was the goal. I was responsible for all of that. The brand development, the relationships, the contracting negotiations, managing the budget. You know, there was a period of time when, like, Natalie and myself, you know, we would entered these grand buildings as these sort of outsiders or outliers, going, please, can you sell us your brand? And the majority of people would be like, absolutely not. Like, who are you? Who are you? This is so cute, you know, And I distinctly remember having that feeling, especially when we would be sitting. We used to get like fifth row seats, and then the next season we get fourth row seats, and then the next time we get third row seats. And I think it was by the time we got to kind of third row and we were consistently there, and then we kept bumping into the big players in the showrooms that the suits would be like, what are you doing here? When Natalie made it to the front row the first time, that was so exciting. There were some huge pivotal moments, like when Phoebe Filo, when she was at Chloe, finally said yes to us. Or at the time, it was Ralph Toledano. We were jumping up and down like we were 10 years old, you know, like doing cartwheels, like, oh, My God. And then when we were invited to like our first, what I would call, like big dinner, and I think it was a caring group dinner, you know, Anna Wintour and Leon Talley and, you know, we were with all the CEOs of the group and it was just fabulous. And it was those moments where I was like, wow, this is so cool. We've been building something. We've been embraced by the industry as a concept at the time or a real business model.
- [22:49]
A
You know, as a kid you were busy trying to fit in. You join a startup and now you're also trying to fit in always. Right. What was the thing you learned about fitting in? Like, what's the thing that somebody else can watch you and now say, oh, how do I do that?
- [23:05]
B
Yeah. So there's a couple of things I think think are important. Speak less, listen more. People will always remember you. Not because of what you said, but because of how you engaged with them. And I love people's stories too. Kind of like you having this podcast. So I'm fascinated. I'm always like, what do you do? Like, who are you? Where'd that come from? I also like to go deep. I can do the how's the weather? But I lose interest really quickly. I'm looking for connection and I'm very bad at keeping it after because, you know, life takes over. But in the moment, I love to connect. And then the other thing is, most people don't care. Like, I'm sitting there, I walk in, you know, I've got these ridiculously self tanning, you know, hands accident that's gone wrong. And probably if this happened to me when I was like in my 20s and 30s, I would have been wearing gloves. I would have been really self conscious about it. And instead I'm like, nobody cares. Like if I walk into a room and there's a hundred strangers and I'm going in by myself, I feel like the spotlight's on me and I'm super nervous. And in the same way that you've always been taught, like, imagine they are wearing underwear. I just walk in and I'm thinking, they're thinking the same thing. No one's going, oh my God, she's wearing a purple shirt. No one cares. Like, honestly, get that into your head. Nobody cares. They're more, you know, focus on themselves. That's it. And if you can see it that way, then it just gives you much more ability just to walk up to anybody.
- [24:36]
A
Is there a messy moment from Net a Porter? Because it was a great run, right? That you still think about or that you would share. Because it can't have all been just smooth sailing, right?
- [24:48]
B
No, of course not. I mean, you know, it was not smooth sailing all the way. I think, you know, if anything, the messy parts just came from. I think emotions are higher because there's so much more to lose. So the messy parts come more from how do you reconcile with these emotions? So if you're not able to raise the money to survive for the next month, it was like panic surging because these were emotions I'd never experienced before. So that's the fortitude that comes with it, which is you've got to go through those moments and walk through those moments of stress and then you realize when it happens again, six months later, it's actually easier to deal with. And then 10 months later, it's easier to deal with. But at the same time, I think part of it has to do with you're young, so you're still learning. You're in situations and emotions you've never experienced before, so you don't know how to handle them. And there's a lot to lose because there's no safety net.
- [25:53]
A
So it was a great run.
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B
It was a great run.
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A
What made you decide to leave and do something else?
- [25:58]
B
I decided to leave because looking at patterns and trends, I started to become very enamored with at the time, UGC content as well as marketplace. And then we had like, everybody was trying, like plinking, you know, product linking. And I thought we are seen as the innovative brand. I believe if you're in a position to do so, you should earmark X percentage of your budget to maintain that leadership. Do not become complacent in your success crunching the numbers. The stock holdings are high. We're increasing our square footage for warehousing purposes. It's becoming more competitive because at the time you had not yet shopify, but you had other e commerce platforms that were much easier to work with. You didn't have to build your own. I'm like, we don't need to buy all this, so why do we have to keep investing and taking on all these operating costs? So that was a big concern for me. Number two, like I said, I thought content, but video ugc, how do we engage with our customers? We're about to launch in New York, our second big warehouse. And then they offered me the CEO of America's role. And at a very young age, I was like, I really love my life here. I love my routine. I love my boyfriend. Still, at the time it was already successful, and I thought, do I want to go back to New York? And I kind of played out what it would be like. And I've never been someone who's like, sought the limelight. That's the Korean. Right. So I'm very happy behind the scenes. So I just thought, I'm going to stay here. So they gave me a month, and I declined the job. And not only declined the job, but I said, I'm also gonna leave the job.
- [28:04]
A
Was that a hard decision to leave?
- [28:06]
B
No.
- [28:07]
A
Why not?
- [28:08]
B
Because I think we were talking earlier, like, my personality is you give, you give, you give, you do, you do, you do. And then once I. I'm like, done. You're done, I'm done. You know, whatever that situation is.
- [28:21]
A
So did you know what you would go to next?
- [28:23]
B
I did. I said I'm gonna do a startup and I'm gonna try to merge content and commerce, and I think it's about entertainment. So I jumped the gun and I launched a startup called Fashion Air, which is like fashion but on air.
- [28:37]
A
Did you know Simon Fuller before?
- [28:41]
B
No. So sorry.
- [28:43]
A
Simon Fuller of Spice Girls, correct? Yeah.
- [28:45]
B
And American Idol. So Simon had just sold the company 19 Entertainment to Bob Sillerman, CKX Public Company. Fashion was it at the moment. So they wanted to put more investment and look for opportunities to expand fashion capabilities. So they did storm Modeling Agency, 50% with the Ducases. They did partnerships with the Beckham. So David and Victoria, Claudia Schiffer, they did something called Fashion House. And then they also invested in Roland Murray. Roland is a dear friend. I've known him for since day one of moving to London. And he said, you should meet Simon because you are this person who's always thinking about what's next, what's, where's it going? And you should brainstorm with him.
- [29:30]
A
And were you an American Idol viewer?
- [29:32]
B
I was not an American Idol viewer. I don't still think I've ever seen an episode of American Idol. What?
- [29:39]
A
No. You definitely need to go watch.
- [29:41]
B
So, yes. So we met and I said, I think this is the future. I think the future is about short form, original content and then technology that allows you to shop live while you're watching this content.
- [29:54]
A
It's like you were ahead of your time.
- [29:55]
B
And you know what? I feel like that's been my, I don't know, cross to bear. I've done so many startups, and they're always like 10 years too early. So we went out, we bought like, flip cams, because flip cams, remember those? By hp because we didn't have our iPhones, we used to distribute them. So we had like Fashion Insider, which was all about like the serious people. And then we had seven days of Chic. That's the UGC content. So that's when you would go, what's in my closet? What am I wearing today? It's literally get ready with me. Yeah.
- [30:24]
A
And then it's basically TikTok, but, you know, now.
- [30:26]
B
Yeah. And we won awards and the, you know, we got everyone and anyone wanted to be with us. It was fantastic. And then the recession hit and CKX was like, oh, my God. Share price down seven months. No, we were live for a year.
- [30:44]
A
A year.
- [30:44]
B
Yeah.
- [30:45]
A
So here you have this amazing ride up with Net A Porter. You go again. You clearly have a high risk tolerance and, you know, partnership with Selfridges, you know, big name. It's going great and then it's over.
- [30:59]
B
Yeah.
- [31:00]
A
How did that feel?
- [31:02]
B
Terrible. I mean, it felt terrible because I was angry that, I mean, the truth is, Simon said, move to la, let's start again. Because then at that point he'd separated with CKX and he had started xix and I said, no. So again, it was like, we are happy here. I'm happy here. Didn't want to go to Los Angeles, so stayed and had to really face my first, what I call like chasm. No idea what to do.
- [31:33]
A
But I mean, how did you even get up the next morning?
- [31:36]
B
I don't know. But I did not deal with it. I did not deal with it because when it happened again many years later, that's when I told myself, you have to deal with it this time, otherwise you won't deal with it.
- [31:49]
A
You didn't deal with it? What does that mean? Like, you just pushed it aside.
- [31:51]
B
I didn't deal with it because I pushed it aside. I didn't talk about it. I would push blame on the economy or, you know, not having the right investment partner. And it was easier to be like, not my fault because it was so embarrassing. Right. On a personal level. But then angry because it was a good product. And then to be honest, we had a. We sold Net A Porter, so Richemont purchased it. And then the equity moment happened, which was life changing. And so that was then.
- [32:24]
A
But it's such a mixed bag.
- [32:25]
B
Like, but it masked. So whatever delusional immaturity I was in, I was like, oh my God, I've just had this wonderful moment financially and then I can easily blame everyone else and I'm okay.
- [32:42]
A
You had to have felt that Failure, of course. Yeah.
- [32:44]
B
But I just went, nope. I'm sure dear friends of mine were like, oh, my God, she's in denial. I'm sure they were thinking that, you
- [32:50]
A
know, what a survival mechanism we all learned the way we grew up is to just put it aside.
- [32:56]
B
And also the Koreanness of, like, saving face, you know, like the shame. I was like, oh, my God, like,
- [33:02]
A
did you have this experience when it failed? Which, you know, like, I think the most growth comes from failure, which is easy to say, not so great to feel. When that happened, did you find, like, your phone stopped ringing? People looked at you differently? Did that happen to you?
- [33:17]
B
Probably. Well, first of all, I will say the one thing being on the business side of fashion meant that, you know, I've got good friends from fashion, but I had my own life, so I was not dependent on a social scene coming from that industry.
- [33:35]
A
Well, that's because twice you actually prioritized your personal life.
- [33:39]
B
Me over and my husband.
- [33:40]
A
Which is a great lesson, actually.
- [33:43]
B
And that's why I say make sure your network is solid. Even if it's two people. I don't care what is the thing that gives you the happiness and knowing it's there makes you feel grounded. Like, what are those things?
- [33:56]
A
So what a mixed bag. You have this incredible life changing moment financially and how this really, you know, public failure at the same time. So for seven years, oh, I couldn't
- [34:07]
B
read their articles written like, oh, this is the reason we knew Fashionaire would fail. I have not read a single. I couldn't read it then and I still haven't read them.
- [34:15]
A
Well, what's the point of reading that now?
- [34:17]
B
I guess it was just to be like, are you over it? Like, can you remove that band aid now? But I probably could. I just thought about it. Yeah.
- [34:26]
A
Okay, so you have seven years where you sort of retrench.
- [34:29]
B
Yeah, Retrench, do consulting. You know, jump around a little bit here and there. And I really struggled. That's when I really struggled. Because you have that view where even though I chose personal as a priority, the ambition is still there. And having success, I have to be honest, unlocked the need for more success
- [34:56]
A
because it becomes addictive.
- [34:57]
B
That's terrible. Like, you know, sometimes I'm like, I wish I was just happy, like, watching tv, having a pizza and content in my job, like, I don't know, whatever that job could be. But having gone through what I've gone through and then having financial. It's addictive. It just, it unlocks this other level of, like, what's next. What else can I do? And so it, it fueled me in a way that is probably both great and unhealthy both at the same time.
- [35:24]
A
A hundred percent.
- [35:25]
B
Like, it's weird and you have to really reconcile with that.
- [35:27]
A
So.
- [35:28]
B
And that's why I talk about the grounding. Like, thank God I have this like stable, amazing, generous husband and I think that partnership has to work. I couldn't be this person if I didn't have, if he wasn't that person.
- [35:41]
A
Okay, so a hard period for sure. Seven years, very hard. What makes you go do Toshi?
- [35:47]
B
So during that period again, pattern recognitions where everything is going. I'm looking at the sector, I'm staying close within fashion and I'm watching Amazon and I'm watching the rise of Amazon and I'm trying to figure out how are they making money on Prime. It didn't add up.
- [36:02]
A
Like I'm, it doesn't make sense.
- [36:03]
B
Back of envelope masks, you know, having come from logistics and operations, I'm like, it just doesn't add up. Like, and then you realize it's aws at the time that was paying for everything, I thought, well, what's what, what is broken? And if, you know, knowing the elevation of our industry because there's always been luxury fashion, like why would we never look at commercialization by saying get on the bandwagon of where the customers are. There was obsession with the last mile because then you had doordash and grubhub and Uber and everything was becoming this on demand component and convenience and there was that aspect of things. And knowing the fashion houses in our sector, I was like, they're never going to do this.
- [36:44]
A
So, so why, why never? Why did you think that?
- [36:47]
B
Because they're slow. But meanwhile, like you're all Amazon shoppers, you all use Uber, you all use the things that you know, you never put your product into. So I thought I can take the last mile and I will re engineer it to fit the dialogue of the luxury market.
- [37:05]
A
So you go back in.
- [37:06]
B
Yeah, go back in. I raise money, I put in money and that was probably the first time where I really, really had skin in the game.
- [37:16]
A
That had to have been hard.
- [37:17]
B
I can tell you something, when you say I have high risk, I don't realize I have high risk.
- [37:23]
A
Because you don't feel it.
- [37:24]
B
I don't feel it. And I had, you know, as all good startups have and I'm super lucky that I had a few investors and advisors who really believed in me and then that, that triggered the Sense of like that pressure of the responsibility because now I have the responsibility of going, oh my God. I've just taken a lot of our financial positioning, put it into this and also taken it from people I know and admire and respect and some who I'm very close to. And I thought there's no reason why this won't work. And that was probably the biggest lesson in all of Toshi is we worked hard, we built something amazing. The industry loved us. We were working with Chanel and you
- [38:11]
A
know you won a huge award from lvmh, correct?
- [38:15]
B
You know we won the LVMH Innovation award. I mean we had the who's who roster and then the world blew up. Literally, right. Like Covid the market, all of it. The market started falling, investors started getting nervous, luxury started to implode and hence why, you know, look at the stories of the Farfetch's and the mattress fashions and I mean they're all gone I think, you know, it's unbelievable to me. And now we're living through, you know, the Sachs global situation. Like it's incredible to watch this crumbling. I'm still in shock by it. But then at the same time having I guess intimate knowledge of that business model, even when we were building it up, part of me left because I couldn't see how that could monetize in a way because just because you don't have a physical store doesn't mean it's not expensive because everybody was like, don't worry about making money, just grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. That was the metric. So we were all driven because then Silicon Valley was leaping through into that investment space. So yeah, so ended up in a situation where it did not matter what we did, how much we were growing when we lost like matches fashion as a client, that's a lot of orders off the table overnight.
- [39:30]
A
One minute that changes your life.
- [39:32]
B
Yeah, so it was all those things and then the markets were crashing, the wars were happening and a lot of my cap table who are like we love you but like in my portfolio of 2018 are dying and I'm going to save the ones who are further ahead.
- [39:50]
A
How did that feel?
- [39:52]
B
I understood so because now you're wise enough to understand the context. It's not personal.
- [39:59]
A
But it still feels terrible.
- [40:01]
B
But it feels terrible. I was like, you can be upset and you can like torture yourself and you will like because that's just how I'm made. But there was a macro like shift, you know and you are a tiny, tiny inconsequential Thing, you know, there was nothing to be ashamed of, I guess, you know, but it still felt bad. But internally. Oh, my God, are you kidding me? My identity, my purpose. What was the point of all of that? What was the point of all those years and all those moments where you felt like you were moving to the next level? The next level? Just for all of it to just, you know, come crumbling down? You just have to make peace with the fact that that's how the world works. Like, that's really how the world works.
- [40:44]
A
Okay, so you're making yet another pivot.
- [40:47]
B
Yes.
- [40:48]
A
I mean, you might be the queen of pivots, although I'm pretty good at it myself. It's how we survive.
- [40:54]
B
I think so.
- [40:56]
A
So tell us about your latest move.
- [40:58]
B
During my time off, which was majority of last year, I was lucky enough where Julian Metcalf, who is the founder of Pret a Manger in the uk, There's a few here in New York, he sold that business, but he has another business called Itsu, which is Pan Asian healthy fast food chain in the uk and he has a grocery line that is already available across all the main retailers in the uk. He's looking to understand the opportunity to bring that to America, starting with this amazing instant noodle range. Because operationally, it's ambient, it's easier. So when I started going out there, when I finally found, when I stopped feeling for myself and I said, okay, put a deadline on it, went out there and I started saying to people, I'm available, I'm gonna stop you.
- [41:53]
A
Because I think that's a very good tip for listeners, which is you're allowed to feel sorry for yourself, but set a deadline and get over yourself. Yeah.
- [42:02]
B
Get over yourself. It's like going to the gym.
- [42:05]
A
Yeah.
- [42:05]
B
So come December of. Of 24, I was so busy socially that I forgot to mourn then because
- [42:18]
A
we're good at shoving aside.
- [42:19]
B
Yeah. And you're social, you're seeing people. Everyone's being empathetic. Etc. Christmas is over. Now you're looking in the mirror and you're like, oh, my God. And when I say it punched me, like it knocked me out. So come January, I said, okay. I hid away. I polished every piece of brass and silver in the house. I reorganized the kitchen. I didn't see anybody phone off. And I just sat there, like, stewing. And the outlet was the physical, you know, and it felt good to have a physical outlet.
- [42:58]
A
It's like weeding. I understand. Or shoveling. It's just when I. When I feel that I Definitely have to move.
- [43:03]
B
Yeah. So that is the messy part is you have to kind of go there and be like, I am not where I thought I would be. And I don't really know if I am who I thought I should be or would be. So these are really huge questions that are terrifying. I'm still battling with this, right? Because it's not that long ago. Imagine that this is it. That's it. Like nothing else. Can you live with that? That's the thing.
- [43:36]
A
Can you?
- [43:37]
B
I can't answer that. Still. That's what I'm battling with. Right. So I said, Come March 1, I don't care where you are. It's over. You get out of bed and you are now the startup. So I called it 200 coffees. And I said, make a list and just make those coffee appointments and go for walks. And in that, your goal is to say, I need help, I'm available.
- [44:03]
A
That's such a good tip for people who listen 200 coffees and ask for help. And it paid off.
- [44:10]
B
And it paid off.
- [44:11]
A
Okay, so now you're pivoting. You know, people ask me all the time, like, oh, you did media, hospitality, tech, how do you pivot? And I like, you have a high risk tolerance. So what advice do you have for somebody who wants to pivot? Because you're pivoting now into food. Yeah. I mean, yes, operationally, the same. What's the advice you have for somebody who's thinking about pivoting?
- [44:31]
B
So my pivot is a pivot, but I call it a gentle pivot. Like, if you're a musician, you can't all of a sudden pivot and become, I don't know, a ballerina. But in our space, there's. Those skill sets are transferable. The advice right now, I believe for anyone who's looking to pivot, if we're talking about, like, of a certain age, is get your head around AI. Like, period. So in January, February, March, April, May, and even today, in my free time, I am studying AI. I am using AI. And the reason why is because I need to understand what that can do to help formulate what I am doing and my value and how this tool can help actually accelerate or enhance the value. I think it's. You got to move with the times.
- [45:24]
A
So you clearly know a lot about analytics and data and trends. What's your thought on how AI is going to impact the fashion industry?
- [45:32]
B
For fashion, I think it just accelerates our capabilities. It means you can become more efficient. Instead of it taking three days, it will Take one day, instead of you having to do the mundane, you actually become the conductor. Like, it changes the framework. So for fashion specifically, when we think about data, I think the complication and the transition period will be quite painful because a lot of sectors, not even just fashion and big companies, have not invested yet in understanding what data scientists and data engineering and how it should have been preserved or contained, like within a CRM or a database to be able to easily translate over. So people today will be like, oh, we need AI in the business. I'm like, well, have you digitized three aspects of your business? If you haven't digitized those three aspects, including where your data lies, how clean that data is, what that information look like, then you're just moving all the junk. So there's a lot of work to be done to ensure that that data moving forward is actually useful, intelligent, clean.
- [46:42]
A
Why do you think in the face of data people don't see the train that's coming for them?
- [46:50]
B
I think because everyone's busy, they pick the things they like. I think you and I are more attuned and curious and that's our space. Whereas the majority of people are.
- [47:01]
A
You know, I was at the beginning of the Internet in 95. I feel like we're like in that moment again just now with AI, like we're going to watch history repeat itself.
- [47:10]
B
I mean, let's be honest, this is a privileged conversation. The majority of people are just worried about putting food on their table right now, 100%.
- [47:16]
A
There was a moment I was there too. So I can relate to that completely. I haven't totally lost touch of that. Okay, I want to do rapid fire. Messiest moment you've had on a scale of 1 to 10.
- [47:28]
B
So messiest moment was after Fashionnaire's closure. Somebody caught me on a bad day and it was a journalist. I lost my rag. I mean, I really lost my rag. And all that pent up frustration just went into her ear and she hung up. So I'm gonna say it's a 10. Last time you cried, I cried on the plane over here watching out of Africa.
- [47:59]
A
Oh, I cry in that movie too. Oh, my God. What should everyone do before they're 35?
- [48:05]
B
They should sing out loud in front of people and they should walk around naked like on a beach with other people.
- [48:15]
A
I haven't had that one yet.
- [48:16]
B
I only say that because I think they're both good for your confidence and they break you in a different way psychologically.
- [48:22]
A
A career myth that you think is a waste of time.
- [48:25]
B
Do Something you're passionate about.
- [48:27]
A
You think that's a myth?
- [48:27]
B
I think it's a myth.
- [48:28]
A
Why?
- [48:29]
B
Because I don't think the majority of people know what that passion is. You know, that's what I've heard all my life from the most successful people. And I'm thinking, well, it's easy to say that when you've had the success. It's not easy to see that or say that when you're struggling and you don't know if you're going to make it. Emotionally, financially, psychologically, physically.
- [48:54]
A
What would you tell someone who's having a confidence crisis?
- [48:57]
B
I tell them probably to take a step back, turn off their phone, turn off social media, go watch things that make you laugh, walk the park, do things that sort of on your own, but cut the noise out. And then when you come out of it, spend 48 hours saying yes to everything.
- [49:19]
A
Okay. So for somebody who's a founder, who's actually in the messy, failing moment, what's the one lesson that you've learned?
- [49:27]
B
That you will survive.
- [49:29]
A
There's always another day.
- [49:30]
B
Yeah.
- [49:31]
A
Sojin, I can't thank you enough for coming on the couch. We didn't know each other that well, and you were so honest and vulnerable, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. Thank you for making it through the episode. I know that you must have enjoyed hearing from SEO Jin Lee. She hit so many great nuggets, including, I think, don't be afraid of singing out loud and standing around naked. I don't know. That was a new one. Make sure you tell your friends. Subscribe. Like, that's how we get to hear more messy stories.