← The Messy Parts
The Messy Parts
Edge of Bankruptcy, Surviving A Toxic Partnership, Starting Over: Gwen Whiting's Messy Truth
00:45:36
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- [00:00]
A
Our acquiring champion left three months after the deal closed. And then we were like the adopted child that nobody wanted. We were his pet project, and then no one wanted to touch us.
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B
That's heartbreaking.
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A
So then you're like, well, who is my ally? And the answer was no one. There was the CEO, and then there's the three heads of business, head of food, head of personal care, and head of home. And I was going to the head of home and very clearly sharing the problems and my grievances with what was going sideways. And just like the dumb, irresponsible things that were happening that I had no control over. And his response, effectively, was, gwen, I don't have the time for you, and your business is too small, so I don't care.
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B
Not big enough.
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A
You're not big enough. I don't care. And then what happens is the brand implodes within two years. Someone has to care.
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B
On this episode of the Messy Parts podcast, you're going to hear from Gwen Whiting. She's the vision behind Laundress and now the fill. She's incredibly creative, unbelievably resilient from her early days as a gymnast, and she really prioritizes relationships. You're going to want to listen. When you and I got to meet at the Collective Futures conference, we randomly sat next to each other, and what I loved is you immediately opened up and were willing to share your journey, because the minute you said laundress, I was like, oh, I know that brand. And then we ended up in a panel that you actually had conceived of for the conference. And we found ourselves in a room with a lot of founders who were having a hard time imagining their life after their many hundred million dollars exit.
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A
Everyone was, like, miserable and crying in.
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B
The soup, and they were like, but I can't be sad because I made so much money. So. So it was kind of funny, and.
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A
I'm lonely and I don't know what to do.
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B
So I thought it was a super interesting experience because we were in a room full of very successful people, and yet it was pretty messy.
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A
Yeah, very messy.
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B
Very messy. And so let's start at the beginning with you. Because you grew up not far away from New York City in New Jersey, a family of small business owners. Your mom was a dental hygienist, and your father had his own business. Am I getting that right? Did you know as a kid that you wanted to be an entrepreneur?
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A
The word entrepreneur wasn't the word. It was the landscape of making money for yourself and having a skill set that provided money. So that was really the lens that I grew up from. And I was crafty and handy and always making things. And if you make things, you can sell things.
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B
A lot of people who make things don't actually ever think to sell them. I'm just saying. And so I remember reading that you weren't very good at drawing or as good as you wanted to be, and yet you decided, oh, I'm going to go take a class.
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A
I wanted to study apparel design. Fashion design. But in order to communicate your vision, you have to sort of communicate it through a drawing. And I was horrible. So I signed up for a class at fit, and it was the high school Saturday Live program, which still exists today. And I went into the room and with all of, like, that talented high schoolers who are there because they can draw, and I'm sitting there mortified with my stick figure, but I say, I am a masochist. I was a child gymnast, so I was used to pain and humiliation. So it was mortifying. But I sat there and I went every week. And it's a muscle, and you actually can train it and get better.
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B
So you got better in the course of the class?
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A
Yeah, it's not good, but better.
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B
It's funny because maybe, like, in my late 20s, I wanted to start a bag business, and I took a accessory class at fit. I made the worst bags and belts known to mankind. I mean, it was, like, worse than what you would make at camp. But in the process, I ended up meeting somebody who'd been in the bag business, and then we got into business together. But this idea that you'd be willing to go do the thing you're terrible at. Yeah, I don't think most people do that.
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A
Most people don't.
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B
Were you embarrassed?
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A
100%. Mortified. Along the way, you're learning the skill sets. You understand you're not going to be the sewer, but you understand what goes into it. I mean, there's all sort of learnings throughout the journey. But if you go back to your.
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B
Childhood, and it's interesting because you were also a gymnast, like, what gave you that muscle to keep pushing yourself and learning what is kind of an uncomfortable thing?
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A
Gymnastics is completely uncomfortable. You're throwing yourself around and you're just, like, hoping and praying that you're going to land decently. And so you're constantly pushing yourself to do very uncomfortable things, and you know that your result isn't always gonna be good and it hurts. And then you go back the next day and do it again.
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B
Did you think you'd be a professional gymnast?
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A
No, no, I say that I retired in ninth grade. You can't do it that long and say you quit. I.
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B
But your first retirement was at age ninth.
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A
Exactly. Ninth grade. Ninth grade. Oh, ninth grade. But you peak, you know, at a certain point, and then you then go through the other mortifying experience of watch yourself regress and get worse while you're going through puberty in a leotard.
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B
Were there messy parts of your childhood journey? I mean, I think back, right, I was an immigrant kid who sort of landed here. We didn't have softball where I grew up, and yet I joined softball and bowling and I was terrible. And I sort of muddled my way through unconsciously, I might say.
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A
I had a very wonderfully, sort of idyllic small town childhood. And then I went to private school for high school and I absolutely loved it. And I thrived with, like, this newfound time to explore another chapter. But the real messy story is that my first love, my boyfriend, was diagnosed with cancer on my.
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B
When you were in high school?
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A
Yeah, my 17th birthday. And then he died on my 19th birthday, my freshman year in college.
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B
What?
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A
I wasn't expecting that question.
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B
There's something that happens on the couch, I warn you.
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A
So, yeah, that was really messy.
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B
How did you even process that at that age?
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A
It was very difficult. I was like, very isolated. Like, this was the 90s. I wasn't sent to therapy.
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B
We didn't know what therapy was.
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A
No, we didn't talk about things. And from my sort of Protestant family, we didn't talk about a lot of things. So that was certainly not one of them. It set the tone of fast forwarding to adulthood. I mean, my. At the time I was 16, I just turned 17. And then he was treated in, like, the adult ward at Cornell, and we were treated like a bold married couple. Like, it was very bizarre and very weird. And so I kind of catapulted into this I gotta fend for myself zone, which I think armored me up tremendously to then fight for myself for a very long time through the laundress.
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B
It's interesting because we had Vanessa Barboni and we were just talking about another tomorrow. And she had a similar experience in that her mom actually committed suicide. And I was telling her that my dad passed away unexpectedly. And there is something that happens to you when you have that kind of.
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A
Sudden, that sort of youthful joy gets sucked out immediately.
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B
And also you have this incredible sense that, like, you have to go. I mean, I always say it's either roll up like a ball or you really have to push forward.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
In a pretty aggressive way.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Let me go back. So did you know. I mean, I know you had a tie business in high school. Was this before? Was this when you were doing this?
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A
Yeah, that was before. My high school had a dress code, and I was sewing and, you know, making things. And freshman year, I made ties for the guy friends and the teachers for Christma. And then it became a thing, and then everyone wanted one. So then I set up a booth at the fundraiser for the high school fashion show, you know, ladies luncheon kind of thing. And then the whole school's wearing ties by Missy Whiting. Well, Missy was my childhood name.
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B
That's amazing.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And did you have, like, marketing materials and things like that?
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A
I didn't need any because everyone was wearing them.
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B
Like influencer marketing.
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A
Exactly, exactly.
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B
And so you knew you wanted to be in fashion? It sounds like I did.
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A
I. I understood that as a creative path for myself.
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B
And so you go to Cornell, and I think I read that you interned at Ralph Lauren and that's how you ended up going there.
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A
I did. So I just had this, like, very magical high school experience with all these incredible teachers. And we had to do a senior project, and my advisor was my English teacher, and he knew that his colleague, his, you know, the younger colleague new to the school, his fiance, worked for Ralph Lauren. And so a small ask landed me to, like, the epicenter of New York fashion with Ralph Lauren as a high schooler. So the formal student project was two weeks, but then I continued on longer into the summer, and then made friends and connections and went back through college. And that was my dream. That was my dream job. It was my dream place to work. And there I was sort of already set up in high school.
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B
Why was it your dream job? You just like that brand? Yeah. Was it what you expected it to be when you got there?
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A
Oh, my gosh, yes. I mean, I was, like, organizing yarn in a closet and couldn't have been happier. You know, like, it was just an absolute dream. I mean, the office is incredible, and the talent and the people and just this constant flow of making things. There's so much that I learned. I call it Ralph Lauren University. Like, you don't leave, you graduate Ralph Lauren. It is like a real institution. So much of how I operate was really formed there. Very distinct vision, very crystal clear. All these different teams in sync and rolling things season to season. And it's a lifestyle. It's a lifestyle brand I joked when I worked there that I was Polo Barbie. And I was like, what Barbie am I today? Am I Equestrian Barbie? Am I Madison Avenue Barbie? Amazing Country Cottage Barbie? But it's a real lifestyle, and it's a lifestyle business, a lifestyle vis. And that's really what I took in principle of building the laundress.
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B
Didn't Ralph Lauren also start with a Thai business? Or was that Calvin Klein?
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A
It was. Right.
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B
He started off doing ties.
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A
Yes.
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B
Maybe that's why you got the job. We had somebody else on, actually. Vicki Freeman, who is the founder of a restaurant group. She owns Cookshop and Shoe Kettle. And, you know, interestingly enough, her start also happened at Ralph Lauren. She did the catering. But what was interesting was that there was a real entrepreneurial spirit in the early days of Ralph Watton. I don't know what it's like now where she asked for an opportunity and they just gave it to her. Was it like that when you were there?
- [11:38]
A
Yes. I was so lucky. I had just incredible boss and incredible mentor. You know, when he interviewed me, he said, what's your dream job? And he told me later that he was expecting me to say his job. And I said, no, I want to be paid to travel around the world.
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B
I love that you thought that was a job, because I didn't know that that was a job until much later in my life.
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A
Well, I didn't. He just asked me for my dream job, and I was like, I want to be traveling and be paid for it. And so he really championed me to travel. And I went to amazing trade shows, and I kind of created a leather business in South America, and I sort of had free reign of the department I was in because I was doing the textile and leather, which was my background, but in furniture. But I was the only person doing that. So then, even though I was sort of level employee, I had a huge responsibility and a huge scope of opportunity. We had to turn things around really quickly. And we didn't. We couldn't do that ourselves. We had vendors, we had suppliers. We had to get people to do stuff for us really quickly. And, you know, they weren't always paid on time. You know, it was, like, not a great environment to messy. So it was messy to work for Ralph Lauren, but everyone did it because it was Ralph Lauren. And then they got the pretty photo shoot at the end, and they were all, like, drinking the Kool Aid, too. We were all in the ecosystem. So very early, I learned, you know, relationships that were. Were the key thing that were gonna make me successful. In my job, in some ways, the.
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B
Lesson is not to be transactional about the relationships because you motivated people to do them despite the situation.
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A
In some ways, it was like complete partner up. You were a team together.
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B
And so you were at this job, you wanted to travel. That's hysterical. And at some point, you decided you were gonna ve and do something of your own. You didn't think like, oh, I'm going to stay here and run Ralph Lauren.
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A
It was economically driven. I was living check to check, barely. The irony was traveling with Ralph Lauren at the time is that you flew business class, you stayed at the five star hotels at the Villa d', Este, you know, Lake Como. And, you know, I come home to my sixth floor, walk up, and I'm, like, praying that I didn't bounce my rent check. It was a dream. I loved what I did. I loved who I worked for. I love my coworkers. But the reality of life and fashion is that you had to wait a really long time to get promoted. It was clear what your economic opportunities were. The typical Ralph Lauren blonde girl marries themselves off to a banker. That's your career path.
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B
Well, okay. Why didn't you pursue that career path?
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A
I would have Sylvia Plath in Greenwich. I knew that wasn't for me. My career path is not marriage.
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B
I want to stop you for a second. Why did you know that?
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A
I just did.
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B
It's funny. Early in my career, somebody introduced me to somebody at Donna Karan. It was for an internship. And she said, it's unpaid. I said, no, I have student loans. I can't work at an unpaid job. She said, the only reason I can afford this job is because I'm married to a banker. And I said, does he have a brother? I mean, I just wasn't quite sure how I was going to respond to that because I had to pay my bills.
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A
Yeah, sure, I did, too. I would do anything not to move back to New Jersey. Like, the idea of moving back to New Jersey and getting on New Jersey transit was just a complete, like, not an option.
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B
But also, for me, I sort of had this sense having freshman year, lived with a group of women who were the first wives was like, that's not gonna happen to me. Like, I have to stand on my own two feet. And it seems like you have that. Yeah.
- [15:26]
A
You know, my mom was incredible, and she gave everything to me. But she worked. She had her own money, she had her own credit cards. And I remember her telling me, like, you never know what's gonna happen. You know, that was like A lesson learned of have your own financial independence and security. But I also knew that I wasn't wired to be my mom and give everything to a child or children.
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B
So you're like, I'm starting my own business.
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A
Yeah. So, okay. I wasn't gonna marry myself, which is a job.
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B
Let's be clear.
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A
Yeah. That is a real choice. And I fundamentally felt that my earning potential was better. I had a better chance at improving that on my own than within the corporate structure.
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B
How did you know that?
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A
I was, like, making, like, $40,000. I was like, I mean, can. How hard can it be?
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B
My God, I love that you had that confidence to be like, I'm just gonna go it on my own. Because that's not super easy.
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A
No. Especially selling, like, $18 bottles at a time.
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B
So did you know you wanted a partner?
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A
I did. I had the idea of the laundress, and I shared with my boss at Ralph Lauren, driving around in a town car, as we did back then. I told him this idea that I had to create laundry products. And the original concept was a laundry product with a service element. And the idea was there would be one institution in New Bumble and Bumble or Bliss Spa, the original Bliss Spa on 57th street, where you had one institution with the products, but you could buy and use the products anywhere in the world. These were the earliest of niche brands or sort of small founder created brands. And so he said, gwen, it sounds like the laundress. So he, My boss names the company, and then he left a photocopy of a class, how to start your own laundromat, on my computer screen.
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B
That's amazing.
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A
Yeah, amazing.
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B
Did you stay in touch?
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A
Yes, of course. So while I wasn't looking to start a laundromat, I got a notebook, I went to class. He even offered to pay for it. I think I. I think I paid for it. But it was really more than that. It was the gesture that he believed in me and believed in my concept was worth pursuing.
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B
That early belief is definitely motivating. So you take the class and take the class. You've had two years.
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A
I'm excited. I'm, like, documenting and putting my ideas down. And then I approach a friend from college to partner. We had different skill sets, which was the point. I am the creator and the manufacturer and the vision and the brander and all of that. And her background was in sales.
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B
So it takes you two years before you leave your job.
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A
Yeah, it was two years of incorporating in 2002. The first fundraiser was a soap Splash. A for profit fundraising party. It was a party.
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B
You threw a party to raise money, correct?
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A
Correct. You know, it was like mid-20s. It was like, oh, you know, we pay to go, you know, to a bar, like a open party that you pay for. We're like, oh, we'll just do the same and charge and fundraise that way.
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B
Like a GoFundMe.
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A
It was. So, yeah, that was the original fundraising kickoff that basically funded going to Cornell and meeting the professor and doing the research. So within two years, I went to Cornell, worked with the fiber science professor that I never personally knew or took classes from, but couldn't have been more willing and thrilled to work with us. And that relationship has continued forever. And she's the soul of the business. So from formulation to fragrance to manufacturing to full branding. I guess I should say that we started with a full business plan. I took entrepreneurship and enterprise MBA class at Cornell and I wrote a full business plan with that class in college. So I took out that workbook and wrote the full business plan for the laundress as well. That was the first thing. I'm so proud of this plan. It was a masterpiece. Kids aren't taught to do that anymore. I shouldn't even say kids, but like, that is not how things are taught anymore. Now it's like, oh, you put together like a three pager and ask for money.
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B
How many pages was your business plan?
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A
At least 30. Then I went to Baruch College and got an SBA loan also within that two year frame.
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B
Well, it's interesting because you didn't go to like a V or private equity and maybe there wasn't as many of them.
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A
It wasn't like a thing. I'm also used to doing everything on.
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B
My own, but did you think to like, go back to Ralph Lauren and say, like, I have a business idea. Do you want to invest?
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A
No.
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B
Why not?
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A
Didn't even think about it.
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B
Isn't that interesting? Because now I think everybody thinks about things like that.
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A
I did ask one of my high school friend's father if he wanted to invest, and he's still kicking himself today. He turned me down.
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B
He should have invested. So.
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A
But it worked out better that way. I mean, the upside is that funding. Alternatively, I kept my ownership.
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B
So you had control?
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A
I kept control.
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B
Was it scary? Because what would have happened if you couldn't have paid?
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A
I mean, yeah, it was 16 years of living on the edge of bankruptcy. Effectively, the SBA loan, the collateral was my 401. So if I defaulted, that would go that money Went really quickly. And then I just started filling out applications for the credit cards that showed up every week in the mailbox. And it turns out if you fill them out, they send you credit cards.
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B
They just send you the credit card.
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A
Just send you the credit cards. So the business was funded until 2008 through credit cards.
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B
Think it was going to be 16 years when you wrote that business plan?
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A
No, I thought it was going to be 4. Again, timestamp, this is so early on in any of these brands and venture, it was like very, very early of any small brand that came out into the market was acquired within like three years.
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B
And so was it hard when you hit that like four or five year mark to just keep going?
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A
Well then 2008, so then you have a complete financial meltdown. So then that was like, okay, let's just get through this. I think the five year plan on paper was like, oh yeah, that's what's happening. But you're just getting day to day. So it wasn't like, oh, it's five years, like was it over now? Like that wasn't the mentality. The mentality was just getting through the day and the week and the pay cycle and the production and getting on a bed next.
- [22:37]
B
But it seems like there definitely had to be messy parts in that journey. Like, what kept you going?
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A
It was horrible. I mean to live basically on the brink of personal bankruptcy for 16 years is not a healthy way to live.
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B
Yeah. I mean it's funny now that I'm an entrepreneur, not doing corporate job, I completely relate because you wake up at every hour being like, wait, who's going to do that? Who's going to wait? What happens? And somebody said to me, well, I've been doing this for 25 years. I said, we've been doing the longest table for four years. What? 25 years?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Like it's daunting.
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A
Yeah. Like the BlackBerry under the pillow.
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B
But the reaction to the product must have kept you going.
- [23:15]
A
Yeah. So I fundamentally loved what I was doing and I believed in it and I was making this incredible product that was making people so happy and having great results. And I'm not gonna like say life changing, but it really enhanced people's lives. And clothing and laundry is incredibly intimate. You know, being part of people's life stages, whether it was, you know, new children or cancer or aging parents, like all of these affect your loads.
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B
You survived the financial crisis. You at one point did you have a pop up store in Soho.
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A
It was not a pop up.
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B
Oh, it was an actual Store.
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A
It was a real brick and mortar store. The way that the laundress was structured from day one was we sold direct to consumer, which wasn't a term in 2004. I mean, Amazon was still selling books. Things weren't shipping and selling and clicking and certainly not 32 ounce liquid bottles. So that was completely unheard of. And then we were selling to local stores around the US and then very early on abroad, I launched a trade show in Paris that I used to go to with Ralph Lauren, and from there, you know, into Europe and Japan and throughout Asia. So I had a store in Japan, in Tokyo, and then a store in Seoul. And the original business plan had our institution in New York. And it was 2016. We were in business for over 14, you know, all these years, and we still didn't have the store. So it was sort of like the last box to check on the business plan. And I'm friends with the Mallon and Goetz founders who started with the store right down the street in Chelsea. And they're like, don't do it, don't do it. It's a whole nother business, which it is. But I had to do it. I had to check the box and really wanting to have the full expression of the lifestyle of the brand as the institution. So I built that store and that opened in 2016.
- [25:27]
B
Was it kind of a hub for community?
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A
It was. It was. You know, all the things that I did are like, oh, of course you did that now. But when I did it, then it wasn't a thing. So, like my Things We Love newsletter, blog, partnering with other brands. Like, I partnered with all these incredible brands, you know, J. Crew and Lolabo. My largest and most successful partnership. Just calling the owner and saying, you know, and saying, this is our vision and having a meeting and doing it.
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B
What do you think gave you the confidence to pick up that phone?
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A
It was like such a good idea. Just a very clear vision, and I believed in it. For me, my approach is always like, communal, not transactional like you said. So it's not like, oh, let's, you know, get a deal. It's like, let's create something incredible that's never been made before.
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B
One of the things you also have is consistency, which I really think Ralph Lauren had. Right. I mean, the reason his brand is so strong is because it's always been that brand. He doesn't sort of zig and zag with the trends in a lot of ways. And so that must have also given you sort of that strength because you were Single minded about what you were. And so when you went to somebody to partner, it was probably.
- [26:48]
A
It was authentic. I wasn't trying to like sneak a deal through. It was like authentically, like, how great would this be if we could do this?
- [26:58]
B
And you weren't afraid to pick up the phone. You're like, okay. So they say no. Yeah. Did you get no's?
- [27:03]
A
Oh, a lot. The biggest no is the owner of CO Bigelow just refused to take. And so it was became a joke of just stalking him and like leaving him like ridiculous voicemails. It became a game. We're like, it's the laundress again. You know, and then finally he caves. And of course they're like the top selling product in his store, you know, so there were a lot of no's. But I have a very strong value system and ethics and I think that that comes through and how I interact with other people.
- [27:38]
B
Okay, so you have the store, which is like the final step of your business plan, and somebody from Unilever just comes knocking on your door. Good thing you opened the store.
- [27:47]
A
It was very much like the world of Ralph Lauren. Right? Like you need to walk into it, feel it, experience it. So I felt that if I could build my world and it would be immersive. I joked that it was like hanging the fly paper, just waiting for the fly to fly in. Which it did. He literally walked in the store. Which was even stranger in retrospect of like, do you think I'm working at the cash register? Like, you know, you're knitting behind the gas for a corporate communication potential transaction. You walk into the retail store and start talking to a sales associate. Bizarre. And maybe that should have been a red flag for Unilever in the beginning.
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B
You engage in a conversation. Female founder still early days of female founders.
- [28:40]
A
Yeah, I mean, like, whatever. That wasn't even a term. We weren't girl bossing then.
- [28:44]
B
So you go in. It's your team of women pitching to a group of men at Unilever. Tell me what that was like. What'd that feel like?
- [28:51]
A
It was kind of shocking. I came from Ralph Lauren. That's like my idea of corporate structure.
- [28:56]
B
Yeah, that's probably not my idea of corporate structure.
- [28:59]
A
It's like not normal. So now I'm in this room and it is like white man Chino, my worst nightmare. Like ironless shirts.
- [29:13]
B
But the opportunity to really scale comes with that. Let's be clear.
- [29:17]
A
Yeah, it was exciting that finally the fly walked in and I was seen as a value that's how I thought I experienced it, that I was seen that I was creating value, that my brand was valuable. And I was very naive. I just expected that this transaction would then do the beautiful thing of bringing my product into more homes and making more people clean and happy. And that was the goal of an acquisition. And I truly believed that my brand was outgrowing me.
- [30:00]
B
Do you feel like you went into that meeting with, with those men armed properly? Like, I mean, I would be so overwhelmed being like, how am I gonna negotiate? Like, what's really the game?
- [30:12]
A
I actually didn't think about any of that. I had my baby, she was perfect. That was it. I was like, I know exactly what I did. I know the future, I know how to do it. And either see the vision and we agree on that. I didn't think about the other stuff, I guess.
- [30:27]
B
You reportedly got sold for a very big number and now you think like, okay, I'm gonna be able to scale. And I know you say, you look back and you say that was a catastrophic mistake. Not totally catastrophic because it did give you freedom.
- [30:40]
A
The messy truth was that I needed to sell the business. My partnership was completely toxic and was imploding by the second.
- [30:54]
B
And it's a lot of weight, like emotionally to carry all that.
- [30:58]
A
It was becoming untenable. We had ideas to go to market in the future and sort of in the nearer future, but not a date. They had acquired seven generation a few years before and I always wanted my brand to be acquired by seventh generation. I thought we shared value systems and we would be the prestige arm of. We're in line ecologically and sustainably, but we were way more sophisticated. So when they acquired seven generation, I was like, okay. And they were buying other brands and they talked to big talk and they had all these B Corp businesses and, you know, had a lot of good things to say about what they had been up to in the past. So it all felt right. I did fight hard not to have an earn out. I didn't trust that. And I'm so glad because within months that would have been trashed.
- [32:00]
B
That's good advice for somebody.
- [32:02]
A
Yeah, don't do an earn out.
- [32:04]
B
So you sell the company. You're still there for a period of time, two years. So the golden handcuffs and then you leave. Was it hard to leave?
- [32:12]
A
The whole thing was hard. You crossed the finish line. You're like the visions of Caribbean and pina coladas. That's what everyone thinks. You've hit the holy grail. You're the winner. It's like winning the lotto. Right. But the reality is that you sold the thing that you birthed and that you loved and nurtured and all the people that you did it with and all the people you protected along the way and valued were now in someone else's hands. And they didn't share the value and the love that I had. They said they did. And that's, like, part of the pitch. But the most shocking takeaway was no one was responsible. Like, zero, zero accountability anywhere in the organization.
- [33:10]
B
Having been on the other side of a big company where you acquire it is hard. Right. Because the company comes in, and if you don't have somebody who's going to champion you and really help you navigate that new organization, I always worry when we buy these businesses that then all of a sudden it loses the magic. Right.
- [33:29]
A
That actually got it there. Yeah. And of course, they tell you that they're buying it for you and you're the magic and blah, blah, blah. Acquiring Champion left three months after the deal closed. And then we were like the adopted child that nobody wanted. We were his pet project, and then no one wanted to touch us.
- [33:52]
B
That's heartbreaking.
- [33:53]
A
So then you're like, well, who is my ally? And the answer was no one. There was the CEO, and then there's the three heads of business, Head of food, head of personal care, and head of home. And I was going to the head of home and very clearly sharing the problems and my grievances with what was going sideways. And just like the dumb, irresponsible things that were happening that I had no control over. And his response, effectively, was, gwen, I don't have the time for you, and your business is too small. So I don't care.
- [34:32]
B
Not big enough.
- [34:33]
A
You're not big enough. I don't care. And then what happens is the brand implodes with within two years, someone has to care.
- [34:40]
B
So clearly that was messy. Sixteen years of toiling to get to.
- [34:44]
A
That amazing exit, and then it implodes on someone else's watch in a hot second.
- [34:50]
B
And you learned about that on Instagram.
- [34:52]
A
I was getting my hair done, and my girlfriend forwarded me the Instagram post from the laundress that she received. That's how I found out.
- [35:00]
B
What's the one big lesson that you.
- [35:02]
A
Would tell your earlier self?
- [35:04]
B
You know, doing that business plan?
- [35:06]
A
I actually don't have an answer for that. I think it was great that I was so naive to how hard it was going to be, but I was used to grueling, painful climbing.
- [35:22]
B
We're Back to your gymnastics.
- [35:23]
A
Like, that was like what I was used to. I had a, you know, a messy partnership. But I still don't regret not, not doing it alone. I'm glad I never raised money. I'm glad I never gave it away. Like all of those things worked out. I'm proud of my relationships and all the partnerships and all the vendors. I am completely devastated how many people got negatively affected by Unilever's carelessness and recklessness. And that weighs on me heavily.
- [35:59]
B
Just yesterday I mentioned laundress and somebody told me they love the stain remover. So I think you should let yourself go on that.
- [36:04]
A
Well, now they can get the fill stain remover.
- [36:07]
B
That's right. I told them you have a new business. Yes. So you leave. And I read that the whole experience had carried like a physical weight on you, right? Anxiety, sciatica. I mean, I joke all the time when things are really crazy. I'm like, oh, my hip. Wait, do I need hip surgery or is it just stress?
- [36:22]
A
Right, right, right.
- [36:23]
B
How did you let go of all that so that you could start again?
- [36:26]
A
I sold. I had my two years. Now it's Covid. So everyone's life is completely changed and turned upside down. So it wasn't just me, but it came in timing wise where I was. I had a whole plan for how I was gonna wrap up that year and it went out the window overnight. So that was disorienting. I was like packing up my entire life in that office. Like everything was in my office for all those 20 years and you know, in a face mask in like the fall, you know, So I didn't get the proper closure. I didn't get any closure. And then leaving and sitting in nothing. Like sitting in the complete discomfort of no motion.
- [37:17]
B
For someone who likes a lot of.
- [37:18]
A
Motion, who likes a lot of motion, like thrives on working with people and teams and creating and community and all like that is my energy source. Here I'm sitting alone, you know, not creating anything. It was so hard. And I was so intertwined with the brand and the and as a personal identity. And so I had to take and sit in this very uncomfortable space to create the space from the past before I could understand what the future was going to look like.
- [37:54]
B
How has the experience of launching the.
- [37:56]
A
Film, it's been really interesting. I did not ever expect or want to exercise my non compete. I mean, when I signed that thing, it was like five years, whatever. I never want to make another bottle of anything again. And it was both home care and personal Care. So couldn't even.
- [38:14]
B
Pretty broad.
- [38:15]
A
Yeah, very broad. It didn't bother me at the time. I was like, great. Because I expected that my legacy of incredible products would continue on. Like, why would I think otherwise? That was a whole point of the acquisition. So fast forward, when Unilever implodes the brand and they didn't sell anything for about nine months. And I expected them to do what they did, which was come back into market with 7th generation product with my label slapped on it. And I had 80 SKUs when I sold the company and I think they came out with like six. So the entire brand experience and efficacy and, and, and was unrecognizable. So I was like, oh, okay, I guess I'm going to go back in the laundry room. It was brewing and I really didn't want to do it, but my dad was dying at the time.
- [39:17]
B
You have these, like, tragic pivots, I have to say.
- [39:20]
A
And I was. It was August and I was in the hospital with him and he like, turns to me and he says, gwen, I'm out of soap.
- [39:29]
B
What?
- [39:31]
A
And he had never, ever once asked me for detergent in like 20 years, he'd never asked me for products. It was like, literally like outer body. Like, I don't think he was even in the mental space. Like, it just. It was a sign. He told me basically he was out of soap. And then by the fall, I was seriously calling people, am I crazy? Is this insane? And then by June, when he passed, he. Then I launched. So it was a real quick. Yeah, so it was a real quick launch, but it was sort of like given to me that this is what I needed to do. And the relevancy of that journey with him was really watching him have closure on his chapters of his life and coming to terms with things. He left my mom in Y2K, which is another relevant benchmark of my story, which I omitted.
- [40:37]
B
So he was doing sort of like closure at the end.
- [40:40]
A
Yeah. So I'm watching this journey of, like, closure and reconciliation and legacy while I'm thinking of my legacy, my tarnished legacy to the public. So that was all incredibly formative of what the fill orientation and vision and goals are, which is putting out my incredible product back into the universe to fulfill these hundreds of thousands of customers that relied on me for making very effective, pleasurable product and reclaim my legacy and sort of clean it up and.
- [41:28]
B
Claim it and all about cleaning with you.
- [41:31]
A
Yeah, that was it. So the goal of the business is like, yes, sell product to make people happy and it's available, but in a different way. I don't want to build a giant CPG brand. I don't want to wake up in the middle of the night freaking out. I don't want any of that drama. And so the idea of the private cleaning club, the cleaning community and creating this business through a membership was my way to orient that. This is a space for people who want to be here and it's a safe space and it's a community and there's value in addition to what I sell and then that relieves me from the things that I don't like or subscribe to. Now, like I said, I don't want to be dedicating myself to social media. I don't want to pay Meta for ads. Like I'm going to outspend Unilever for my own name. Like it's crazy. So it's affording me a way to do commerce in a different way that I feel better about.
- [42:42]
B
Has there been anything that's surprised you or been messy about the film?
- [42:46]
A
It's a small brand and that's how I want it. But it's funny that how large of a platform it's provided. I had to have my coming out party and get back on stage stage to get invites again and be relevant again and being invited to that incredible conference that we met at and having board opportunities and all these other things. And this isn't coming from an ego driven where I want to be known in front and center. But I thrive being in rooms with other interesting people doing great things.
- [43:24]
B
I have to say I love this conversation. I'm so glad that we somehow randomly ended up sitting next to each other. You know, it wasn't even that long ago. We close out with some rapid fire questions. Karaoke or Wakon music, What would you pick?
- [43:38]
A
Never karaoke.
- [43:39]
B
But what would be the song you would pick?
- [43:41]
A
Oh, anything. Dolly Parton, A food you'd bring to.
- [43:45]
B
The potluck or the longest table because you're gonna have to come this way.
- [43:47]
A
I know. Baked Brie.
- [43:50]
B
If you weren't going to be a female founder, what would be an alternative career?
- [43:53]
A
I always thought I'd be a lawyer.
- [43:55]
B
What?
- [43:56]
A
Not like as a kid, but in the laundress I was like, if I had to do something I'd go to law school because I did all the legal stuff for the business.
- [44:06]
B
What are you reading, listening or watching the ft? Always.
- [44:11]
A
But I just started watching a show. It's called it's either Younger or Younger.
- [44:16]
B
Where she pretends she's younger.
- [44:18]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [44:19]
B
There's many seasons of that show.
- [44:20]
A
I am in it to win it.
- [44:22]
B
Once you and you're like and Darren Starr.
- [44:25]
A
I mean, no one captures a moment.
- [44:28]
B
Emily McBeal generation.
- [44:29]
A
I mean, I know 2, 1, 0.
- [44:31]
B
I know 2, 1, 0. What would people who know you be surprised to learn about you who know me? Yeah, a little.
- [44:37]
A
I do lots of things to push my comfort zone.
- [44:43]
B
Like what? What?
- [44:44]
A
Like I decided that I am going to start playing polo, but I didn't know how to ride a horse. Things like that.
- [44:51]
B
It's very Ralph Lauren. Just for the rough.
- [44:53]
A
Like instead of just deciding to learn how to ride a horse, I was like, no, I'm going to learn on with one hand at like full speed gallop. Because that's a great idea. It's hard and scary. I haven't been on the horse this summer.
- [45:05]
B
Definitely scary.
- [45:06]
A
Kite surfing is next.
- [45:08]
B
One piece of advice you'd leave everyone with.
- [45:10]
A
Be honest and stick to your authentic.
- [45:13]
B
Self and talk to strangers.
- [45:14]
A
And confront. Talk to strangers. Exactly.
- [45:16]
B
Thank you so much for coming on. Honestly, that was amazing and everybody needs to sign up for the fill. Be part of your community. We're going to make it bigger.
- [45:24]
A
You don't want that. No, I want everybody who wants to be there at the Phil Club at Gramercy Park.
- [45:30]
B
We're all coming.