“Flooded with the Feeling of Sudden Death” Shelley Huff on Panic Attacks, Bankruptcy, Getting Fired, and Life After the Title

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Messy Parts with Maryam Banikarim

Episode: “Flooded with the Feeling of Sudden Death” – Shelley Huff on Panic Attacks, Bankruptcy, Getting Fired, and Life After the Title
Date: April 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this candid and deeply personal episode, host Maryam Banikarim sits down with Shelley Huff, former CEO of Serta Simmons Bedding and co-founder of Interval. Together, they unpack Shelley’s unconventional career journey—from humble beginnings and early business failures, through the pressures and pitfalls of corporate leadership, panic attacks, bankruptcy, and finally, the abrupt loss of her title. Shelley shares her hard-learned lessons on resilience, mental health, leadership, and rebuilding after public and private setbacks. The conversation is rich with advice for anyone navigating the messier parts of their own professional (and personal) lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Shelley's Early Life and Foundational Lessons

• Family Environment: Shelley shares stories from her Arizona childhood and the influence of her contrasting parents—a logical, disciplined math teacher father and a creative, artistic mother.
  • “My dad was a high school math teacher and a basketball coach, a really good one... My mom is so super creative and fun...I lived in the middle of right brain, left brain.” – Shelley (A) [03:16]
• Early Entrepreneurship and Dropping Out: She recounts dropping out of college to start a candle and home décor business with friends, which ultimately failed and strained her friendships.
  • “Because you're best friends doesn't mean you will be perfect partners.” – Shelley (A) [07:44]
  • Advice for young founders: Seek mentors who have “been there/done that.” Pick partners with complementary skills and shared values. [06:54–08:02]

Rebuilding After Failure and Finding Clarity

• Return to Education: Shelley describes how taking time away from college sharpened her discipline and purpose when she returned.
  • “It was me going all in on myself, my teams, what I wanted to do.” – Shelley (A) [09:35]
• Professional Launch: Her involvement in Students in Free Enterprise (SIFE) led to an internship at Walmart and, inspired by the company’s culture (including the visibility of women leaders), she committed to building her career there. [08:19–11:47]

The Realities and Messiness of Corporate Climbing

• Merchandising at Walmart: Offers an insider’s look at the demanding world of corporate merchandising—making large category decisions, handling mistakes, and learning from mentors.

  • Story: Accidentally over-ordering for Mardi Gras, facing tough feedback, and the power of accountability.
    • “Thank you so much for owning this. You’re the first one to own it.” – Shelley recalling her SVP’s response [15:08]
  • Key Lesson: “Being accountable for your mistakes and having a plan to fix it is incredibly important... Bad news does not get better with age.” – Shelley (A) [15:42]

• Panic Disorder at the Pinnacle: Shelley opens up about suffering panic attacks while rising through Walmart’s ranks, the stigma around mental health, and learning to finally ask for help.

  • “The panic attacks increased where I would just be flooded with this feeling of sudden death where I’m... I think I’m going to die now.” – Shelley (A) [00:00]
  • “I didn’t tell anyone. I knew if I told anyone that this was happening… people might say something like, ‘Oh, well, she’s at her capacity, she can’t possibly handle it.’” – Shelley (A) [00:21][18:58]
  • Turning Point: Seeking professional help, receiving a diagnosis, and returning to health.
    • “I went and had one meeting with her and I was completely honest...she said, ‘Shelley, I think it's going to be okay.’” – Shelley (A) [20:59]

Handling Leadership Crises: Bankruptcy, Loyalty, and Getting Fired

• Leading Turnarounds and Taking Risks: Explains her move from Walmart to Serta Simmons Bedding, drawn by the challenge of transformation in a distressed company and the role that “risk muscle” has played throughout her career.

  • “A risk is a muscle you develop over time... the more risks you take, your muscle for risk gets bigger.” – Shelley (A) [25:14]

• Bankruptcy Leadership: As CEO, Shelley navigated Serta Simmons through Covid, supply chain disruption, and a billion-dollar bankruptcy—facing the moral choice between leaving for another job or staying to see the company through.

  • “You can go apply and get another job. You can leave... it was a very easy answer for me. I was not going to leave the team.” – Shelley (A) [29:54]

• Abruptly Losing the Top Title: After emerging from bankruptcy, she was fired three weeks later, without the chance to say goodbye to her team—a traumatic end that’s common yet rarely discussed.

  • “It was unceremonious...I just got a call, and they said, ‘We’re going to make a leadership change.’” – Shelley (A) [31:11]
  • “You trust people to treat you a certain way, and they don’t, and you’re just kind of, like, in shock.” – Shelley (A) [32:24]

• Coping with Multiple Life Quakes: Shelley reflects on a period when, in quick succession, she lost a close friend to cancer, led her company through bankruptcy, and was fired.

  • “For me, it was like all of these very big life quakes that were happening all at once.” – Shelley (A) [35:20]

After the Title: Sabbatical, Grief, and Reinvention

• Sabbatical as Salvation: Shelley’s executive coach advised her to avoid “phoenixing” immediately, instead taking a sabbatical to process her grief and re-discover herself—a practice she calls “terrifying but transformative.”
  • “You can’t just go take another job after this. You actually need to take a break and reflect on everything that’s happened.” – Repeating her coach’s advice [35:53]
• Building The Interval: Connecting with Maryam and others in similar situations, Shelley co-founds The Interval—a peer community for C-Suite executives and founders embarking on “chapter 2B” of their careers.
  • “Most people don’t even know to name it. Grief. Whether you voluntarily or involuntarily leave a job or retire, there’s a grieving process that happens, and we never even name it that.” – Shelley (A) [38:24]
  • The community is about removing isolation, reimagining identity beyond the job title, and helping leaders discover new forms of impact.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Partnerships:
  “Because you’re best friends doesn’t mean you will be perfect partners.” – Shelley (A) [07:44]
• On Risk:
  “A risk is a muscle you develop over time... the more risks you take, your muscle for risk gets bigger.” – Shelley (A) [25:14]
• On Failure and Accountability:
  “Thank you so much for owning this. You're the first one to own it.” – Shelley quoting her SVP [15:08]
  “Bad news does not get better with age. Let’s address it and move forward.” – Shelley (A) [15:42]
• On Mental Health at Work:
  “I didn’t tell anyone...I knew if I told anyone that this was happening... people might say...‘She can’t possibly handle it.’” – Shelley (A) [00:21][18:58]
  “You can’t escape yourself… I was losing hope that I was going to function like a normal person ever.” – Shelley (A) [19:55]
• On Being Fired:
  “You trust people to treat you a certain way, and they don’t, and you’re just kind of… in shock.” – Shelley (A) [32:24]
• On Grief and Leaving C-Suite Roles:
  “Most people don't even know to name it. Grief. Whether you voluntarily or involuntarily leave a job... there's a grieving process that happens, and we never even name it that.” – Shelley (A) [38:24]
• On Finding Purpose Post-Title:
  “There’s other ways of having impact than just having a C-suite job. I don’t need to be CMO for a sixth time.” – Maryam (B) [39:47]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp (MM:SS) | |-------------|-----------|-----------------------| | Childhood & Family Influences | Shelley’s upbringing | 01:37 – 03:23 | | Early Entrepreneurship | Dropping out, starting a candle business | 04:07 – 06:19 | | Advice on Partnerships & Mentors | Lessons from failed biz | 06:36 – 08:02 | | College Pivot & All-in Discipline | Returning and excelling | 08:19 – 09:51 | | Walmart Internship & Early Career | Launching retail career | 10:08 – 11:47 | | Merchandising Mistakes & Lessons | Mardi Gras order story | 12:41 – 15:39 | | Panic Attacks & Mental Health | Breaking the silence | 17:27 – 21:07 | | The Cost of Silence at Work | Stigma & self-containment | 18:58 – 19:42 | | Serta Simmons & Bankruptcy | Leading through turmoil | 27:05 – 30:12 | | Being Fired After Restructuring | The gut punch | 30:28 – 32:24 | | Grieving Losses & Sabbatical | Personal and professional rebuilding | 34:32 – 37:18 | | Building the Interval | Support for executives in transition | 37:18 – 40:14 | | Rapid Fire Questions | Career myths, advice, emotional moments | 41:51 – 42:50 |

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Rapid Fire & Closing Lessons

• Messiest Moment:
  “The whole eight months in 2022... for sure that's a 10.” – Shelley (A) [42:01]

• When Did You Last Cry?
  “Last week, I saw a dog rescue video.” – Shelley (A) [42:10]

• One Thing to Do Before 35:
  “Go to Paris.” – Shelley (A) [42:21]

• Career Myth:
  “That you have to have some sort of degree to be successful.” – Shelley (A) [42:25]

• One Thing Never to Do Again:
  “Lead through a restructuring.” – Shelley (A) [42:30]

• Advice in a Crisis of Confidence:
  “Call a friend. Call a true friend who is going to remind you of who you are.” – Shelley (A) [42:43]

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The Takeaway

This episode lifts the veil on all the “messy parts” that come with striving for and living in success. Shelley's journey is a reminder that behind every big title are real vulnerabilities, setbacks, and untold rebuilding stories. Her candor about mental health, corporate failure, and identity after losing the title offers validation and hope for anyone—leader or not—working through hard pivots. Take your time; ask for help; let community carry you through the messiest chapters.

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Transcript

[A]

The panic attacks increased where I would just be flooded with this feeling of sudden death where I'm. I think I'm going to die now. I can remember at work a couple of times sitting in a conference room in a staff meeting where I was counting down the clock to see, when is this meeting over so I can drive myself to the emergency room, because something's wrong with me. And that happened a couple of times. And they run tests on me again.

[B]

Like, do people know?

[A]

I didn't tell anyone. And I knew if I told anyone that this was happening that that would have an impact on how people thought about me. And people might say something like, oh, well, this is. She's at her capacity. She can't possibly handle it. She can't handle it. She can't do more.

[B]

Today on the messy parts we're going to have on Shelley Huff. She had an amazing trajectory, became a very powerful executive at Walmart, helping lead their digital transformation. She then went on to be the CEO of Serta Simmons Betting, which had an interesting and messy pivot to then taking a pause and really rethinking how she wanted to live her life, which has led her to actually be the co founder and CEO of the Interval, a peer community for C Suite executives and founders who've exited and are beginning to rethink. I'd say chapter 2B, you're going to want to listen. What the heck is Chapter two be? Shelly's got a lot of answers for you.

[A]

All right, Shelley.

[B]

Well, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. We have a lot of ground to cover. I want to start with the young Shelli, because who was the person before she got invited to Fortune's Most Powerful Woman?

[A]

Perfect. Well, I'm really excited to be here on the famous blue couch, so thank you for having me. I grew up in Arizona, and I have a brother, and he. And I grew up. And my dad was a high school math teacher and a basketball coach, a really good one.

[B]

He coached you?

[A]

He coached me. I. And I played softball because he couldn't coach me if I played basketball because he had teams to coach during basketball season. And so he introduced me to softball at a very young age, I think, at 6 years old, and worked with me to become a softball pitcher. And so my dad really invested a ton of time with me. I probably threw a hundred pitches a night in our backyard for years. Well, what about your brother?

[B]

Did he coach him?

[A]

My brother wasn't as interested in sports, so my dad coached me, which was wonderful. And we Had a lot of fun together during that time.

[B]

So the two of you grew up in Arizona. You're fifth generation Arizona, which I find fascinating.

[A]

Fifth generation Arizonan.

[B]

And so what did. Okay, sorry. We have dogs. This is, like, totally the Messy Birds podcast. Charlie needs to be quiet. What about your mom?

[A]

My dad's a mathematician and completely the opposite of him. My mom is so super creative and fun, and I just remember her growing up. She stayed home with us and was going to college part time while we were growing up, and she was just cool. She always had, like, MTV playing and had fashion magazines around, and I can remember listening to Bruce Springsteen and all of these, you know, musicians. And so we always had art around us, whether it was sketches or paintings. And so it was really this great contrast between my parents in terms of,

[B]

like, right brain and left brain in

[A]

the house I lived in the middle of. Right brain, left brain.

[B]

So were there messy parts to your growing up story? Because it seems kind of a perfect

[A]

story for the most part. It. It was a lovely childhood to grow up. I mean, my brother and I are incredibly close in age, so, I mean, there was normal sibling rivalry. My mom often said that she had two only children because we had such different interests and were very independent.

[B]

But you're very close in age.

[A]

We're very close in age. He's probably my best friend, so I can't say there were really big, messy parts in my childhood.

[B]

There's no, like, crazy story.

[A]

All right.

[B]

But you do have some that come later, so it's okay, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I joke that sometimes when you have the messy early, it's like you get used to it. Right. You get used to picking yourself back up. So it eventually. We all eventually have messy parts.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you stay in Arizona to go to college.

[A]

I do.

[B]

And you first are studying mechanical engineering.

[A]

I really liked the coursework. I can remember creating catapults and all these different things in my.

[B]

What is a catapult?

[A]

It's something that actually launches something else. You know, you're learning about inertia and. And all of those things in my freshman year of. Of college. But I couldn't see myself doing it long term, I think.

[B]

Why not?

[A]

There was just a lack of diversity, not only in the population. I was one of the only women taking that coursework, but then also just in terms of thought process and what people wanted to do. And so I. I ended up dropping out of college after my first semester.

[B]

I'm sorry, you have a teacher as a parent, what was their reaction to Dropping out.

[A]

My parents, I think were worried at the time, but they also knew that I wasn't probably into college as much as I should have been and I didn't have the discipline to study and continue to do that. But you're such a good student definitely now. And I think I learned that going through college, but I just wasn't interested in it. And I had a couple of friends who wanted to start a business and, and I wanted to do with them and figure out really what I wanted to do. And so I think my parents were nervous, but I always knew I'd go back. So for me it was just an opportunity to take some time for myself, mature a little bit and start a business with my friends and learn a little bit more about what I wanted,

[B]

what was the business.

[A]

So we started a home accents business where we'd make candles and frames and different things and we sold them into local boutiques in Tucson. I worked part time retail on the side, both at the mall and at a small boutique in Tucson. And so I really, that's where I started to love retailing. I really loved that you can change someone's day or life by helping them find something that they really appreciated. I liked the people aspect of that. Ultimately, our small business did not flourish for all the reasons that three 19 year old young women did they drop

[B]

out of school too. Were you like three dropouts running a candle business? Basically you basically stop your life to do it. For sure it has to be stressful for all of your parents and it doesn't work out. How did that feel?

[A]

I think it was difficult for us because it strained our friendship. And that was the hardest part about that not working. Is it really strained the friendship?

[B]

Are you friends now?

[A]

We are, yes.

[B]

So you made it past the messy part.

[A]

We did. Decades later, we are past the messy part. We are still good friends. For me it wasn't as stressful because I was really clear on going back to college and studying retail and being in that industry. So it was a really crystallizing experience for me.

[B]

But I want to pause for a second because there are many people who are 19 who now are starting their own business. And if you look back with the hindsight that you have today, having, you know, been incredibly successful at Walmart, becoming a CEO of a big company, what advice would you have for three women who are 19 who want to start

[A]

a business, have really great mentors, having mentors who have been there, done that, that you can call and say, here's a problem, we're Working through or even mentor you through the relational aspects of that is really important.

[B]

But I want to dig in on a tip that maybe you learned at that moment about how to figure out who to pick as a partner. And we have a lot of people who come on who are founders on this couch, and many of them start off and they actually become successful and sell their companies for billions of dollars, but the partnership gets frayed, right? And they actually say, I can't mention my partner's name on this podcast or we don't speak anymore. Now, you guys didn't have that. Is there any advice you would give to somebody who's picking a partner?

[A]

What I will say is, because you're best friends doesn't mean you will be perfect partners.

[B]

Well, that's a good tip.

[A]

And so I think, you know, looking for folks that have complementary skill sets to you or folks that have different experiences than you becomes far more important than, are you friends or do you enjoy each other in that way? And I think more than anything, it's, do you have somebody with shared values?

[B]

Well, okay, this is interesting because you and I are partners. We are partners.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

So we'll get to that. Okay, so now you go back to school. It doesn't work out, but it gives you clarity as to what you want. You go back to University of Arizona where they have a top retail program. Tell us what happens, like, how do you find your way after that?

[A]

Two pieces of advice really came to me in that time where I was going back to the University of Arizona. My dad, he knew I had taken time off, obviously, and he said to me one day, he said, shelly, I'm really interested for you and what happens in your life if you truly choose to apply yourself 100%.

[B]

Did he feel like you weren't applying yourself?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

I can't even imagine a Shelly who doesn't apply herself 100%. I just want to say that out loud now, but he thought that.

[A]

He thought that. So that really resonated with me. And then my brother around the same time, because I had taken 18 months off, so my brother was now going into undergrad the same time I was. And he said, you know, I think it's going to be a shame if you don't go back now, because people that are smarter than you are going to end up with a college degree, and you might not have one. So when I went back, combined with the experience I had in working retail, I was all in. And so for me, that was. I got involved in a Series of extracurricular activities. I was an ambassador for my college. I was on the Students in Free Enterprise competitive business team. I was getting A's in all of my classes. I knew what I wanted to do, I was engaging fully. And when I look back at what my college calendar was like, it was like 8am to 9pm every day. And I was working part time during that time too. And so it was really me going all in on myself, my teams, what I wanted to do. And all of that led to a tremendous amount of opportunity for me. But it was a step change in terms of how I chose to live my life and how disciplined I wanted to be and how intentional I wanted to be with what was next for me.

[B]

It's interesting because in some ways the pause from college, which you did something different with, is the thing that gave you the clarity when you went back.

[A]

It did and it showed me that I could rebuild.

[B]

What's the step from college? Where? How do you get to Walmart?

[A]

So during the time I was in college, I was part of a group called Students in Free Enterprise, which was a competitive business organization where we would essentially do work in our local community, help local businesses develop programs to teach principles of free enterprise, and then we'd compete on a national stage at the end of every year with a 24 minute memorized presentation. And the University of Arizona, stressful. It was a lot of fun if you're a competitive person. And so the University of Arizona happened to have one of the top teams in the country during those years. In my senior year, I was on the presentation team. But leading up to that, Walmart was very involved in this organization. And so where Walmart, I think they got 10,000 intern applications every year and accepted 150. Because of the connection I had with University of Arizona and students in Free Enterprise, I got one of the internships between my junior and senior year. I wanted to take that internship because they were Fortune 1 and they were the best retailer in the world. I had no intention on moving to Arkansas full time. All of my friends were going to New York, Louisiana, San Francisco. But I was like, I'm going to learn a ton and I really want to go to this internship. I knew within four weeks that I wanted to start my career there. It was just a really incredible experience. The leaders there had a tremendous amount of integrity. It was a place where they promoted you based on performance, not tenure. There was a large level of accountability. People treated you really fairly and really well. And so I knew I wanted to start my career there, which is.

[B]

And they had a lot of women.

[A]

And they had a lot of women. It was an example of seeing women in their 30s that were global officers for the company. And I didn't see that across a lot of retailers that I was talking to at the time.

[B]

So you start your career at Walmart and how do you get from there to becoming a CEO for the first time? It's a big road.

[A]

It is a. It's a big road and lots of twists.

[B]

And by the way, lots of people work at Walmart, right? So, I mean. And they don't all become CEO of a company after they leave.

[A]

I would say I had a real passion for merchandising, and that's the division that I went into at Walmart.

[B]

What is merchandising for people who are not from retail.

[A]

Okay. So my first job starting at Walmart, I was responsible for buying plant food. It was an $80 million category. My second day at work, I was touring an organic chicken coop facility because then we could make organic fertilizer out of it. It was not a glamorous job. I didn't wear high heels to work until I left that job because I didn't know where that job was going to take me during my day. But essentially it was an $80 million category, and I was responsible for choosing the plant food items for the continental United States.

[B]

This is the day in the life of a merchant.

[A]

This is the day in the life of a merchant. You know, I can still remember, like, there's one skew of African violet plant food everywhere because it's a very specific plant food. And so you get immersed in a category, learning everything about the customer and why they're buying, what they're buying, and how much do they need and what are our forecasts going to look like.

[B]

And so numbers is a big part

[A]

of merchandising, is a big part. And this is what I loved about it. There's an art and science to merchandising where you in categories, not necessarily plant food based, where you have to really be trend focused, but you also have to be really disciplined and analytical around deciding how much or how little of something that you're going to buy. So that's what I did for a long period of time. And so I moved through lawn and garden categories, stationary, party supplies, back to school. And some of these categories are incredibly fun. I can remember being in China at one point in a factory, looking up at a wall of red, white and blue wigs, deciding if America was going to wear the clown wig or the mullet wig for 4th of July that year. And so that was my job to choose and to choose how many of that. Those wigs I was going to buy. And so merchandising is an incredibly fun category at Walmart. There are merchants, merchants that work there.

[B]

What does that mean?

[A]

So that means that they're just. They built that business. They were probably part of Walmart when it had three to 500 stores. I was fortunate to work with folks that were there during that time that helped grow it to thousands. And they really would get in the details of the business and how you work with suppliers and how you build those relationships and operate with integrity. And all of those folks were mentors and teachers and would hold me accountable when I didn't do something right and tell me I did a good job when I did. And they were willing to take the time to coach you.

[B]

Were there messy parts to this journey?

[A]

Well, of course there are messy parts to merchandising all the time. So the messiest one that I go back to quite frequently is when I was transitioning into the party supplies category. I signed off on an order for Mardi Gras. And Mardi Gras should really only go to New Orleans and places that celebrate Mardi Gras in a big way. I think I bought 400 times the amount of Mardi Gras that the United States needed. So we shipped it everywhere. And regional vice presidents were calling my boss, my boss's boss, about how much Mardi Gras they had. And I got an email at 5am from my senior vice president telling me to please send him my line review for Mardi Gras. And the last thing you want is your senior vice president thinking about your business at 5am on a Saturday morning. And so how did that feel? It was terrifying. You know, it just felt bad. I had made this mistake. It was awful. He was having to answer questions about it. So I sent him the line review. But I made sure I was at the showroom the minute he walked in. And I just walked into him and I apologized. I said, I'm sorry, this is too much and it won't happen again. And here's what we're doing about it. And he looked at me and he said, thank you so much for owning this. I've talked to a lot of people about this, and you're the first one to own it. And I appreciate you saying that.

[B]

Is there a lesson in that? Because we all make mistakes at work.

[A]

Yeah, I think being accountable for your mistakes and having A plan of how you're going to fix it's incredibly important. And I tell that story, and I've shared it in front of him publicly as well. He promoted me, like, nine months later, but he did that because he knew I was going to own my mistakes. He knew I was going to be accountable. That shows a sense of integrity. I wasn't trying to blame anybody else for my mistakes. That was a big lesson for me in terms of not only how he responded, but also living the values of how you want folks to, how you want to model that behavior and how you want your teams to really model that behavior. And I remember that when my teams would bring me things, it's like, hey, this didn't work out the way I wanted. It's like, great. What are we going to do about it? And if we can respond that way as leaders and we can build teams that way, then there's no friction. It's like, bad news does not get better with age. Let's address it and let's move forward.

[B]

Okay? But we've also all had bosses where they say it's okay to fail. You come in, you own it, and then guess what? They throw you under the bus. I mean, maybe you didn't have that, but I can definitely say I've seen that happen too. Right. So I just want to acknowledge that because for somebody who's listening, who's had the other experience, in the end I say you have to be who you are, because what's your other choice?

[A]

And I think it goes back to. I mean, Charlie Munger, I think at one point said. He said, there's not that many.

[B]

Who's Charlie Munger?

[A]

So Charlie Munger worked with Warren Buffett for a really long time at Berkshire, built the company with Warren Buffett. And he said, there's not that many great companies out there. So if you find yourself working at one, stay there as long as you can.

[B]

And that was actually your story.

[A]

That was my story. I stayed at Walmart a really long time because of that.

[B]

I mean, you know, somebody else listening will be like, oh, just. She just like, you know, she had a messy moment at 19, and then she finds her way into Walmart, and then she just is like, up and to the right. But it can't have been like that the whole way, because we know that it's not like that.

[A]

There are always messy moments. And so one I will share with you is I started having panic attacks. And what.

[B]

What does that mean?

[A]

I had panic disorder for a time, and I was Growing my career. I was like a senior director in men's merchandising. And I remember being at dinner one night and just something flooded my body and I thought I was going to die. I had friends take me to the emergency room. I was like, maybe I had just flown back from overseas. I'm like, maybe I have a blood clot. And I made them do every scan on me that night. And they're like, nothing's wrong with you. You need to just go home and have a glass of red wine and settle down.

[B]

And it's like a TV moment.

[A]

It is. And what was still looking back is I think the folks at the emergency room knew I was having a panic attack, but they didn't tell me that I knew what I was feeling, but I didn't. There was no name for it.

[B]

It was like before we really talked

[A]

about it, it was before we talked about mental health or anything. So they just sent me home and I just felt like something was wrong. And so over a period of a year, the panic attacks increased where I would just be flooded with this feeling of sudden death, where I'm. I think I'm going to die now.

[B]

How did you handle that in a meeting?

[A]

It was interesting because at work, most of the time I would just focus my brain on what was in front of me, the meeting I was in, talking to my team, et cetera. I can remember at work a couple of times sitting in a conference room in a staff meeting where I was counting down the clock to see, when is this meeting over so I can drive myself to the emergency room because something's wrong with me. And that happened a couple of times. And they run tests on me again,

[B]

like, do people know?

[A]

I didn't tell anyone. I knew that I was on this tipping point of becoming an officer for Walmart. People didn't talk about mental health in the workplace then. And I knew if I told anyone that this was happening that that would have an impact on how people thought about me. And. And people might say something like, oh, well, this is. She's at her capacity, she can't possibly handle it. She can't handle it. She can't do more. And my world outside of work got very small because I didn't want to go anywhere, do anything. And so I went from the person who was throwing parties at my house all the time and having people over after work on Friday to just my world becoming smaller and smaller. And so these things, if they're not addressed, get worse over time. And so it got to the Point where I wasn't sleeping more than a couple hours ago.

[B]

Were you married at this point?

[A]

I was married at the time, yeah.

[B]

How did your. Did your husband understand?

[A]

I think it's hard for anyone who has never had panic disorder to understand panic disorder because it's completely illogical.

[B]

And how did you find your way out of it?

[A]

So I got to the point where I was just at my wit's end with it. I was. And that's a bad way to phrase getting to this point. But I'm not a person who asks for help. Right. It's like you develop this, you know, through playing sports through, you know, a young age and just working through, you know, your career. You don't ask for help. And so it got to the point where I was exhausted and I, you know, you can, you can't escape yourself. You can't shut it off. And I was losing hope that I was going to function like a normal person ever. So I did go to one woman who I had known since my internship at Walmart and I said, hey, I'm really struggling. And I know you said you had a really great doctor. Can you give me her name? And I remember going to see her and I think she saved my life. I went and had one meeting with her and I was completely honest about everything I was feeling. And she said, you know, Shelly, I think it's gonna be okay. I really think it's gonna be okay. And so I was diagnosed at that time with acute, meaning temporary anxiety and depressive disorder. And I was put on medication for 18 months and I was fine after that.

[B]

Did you tell your family?

[A]

I told my mom and of course my mom and my dad and my ex husband knew what was, you know, happening.

[B]

Sorry, did he become exactly, he became an ex.

[A]

No, I think around that time, like, we did get divorced shortly after that. And as I was getting better and it wasn't. He's a. And otherwise I wouldn't have married him. But we just, you know, had differences in terms of like, religion and how we lived our lives and those sorts of things.

[B]

But it wasn't related to the, to the panic attacks?

[A]

No, I don't think the panic attacks helped.

[B]

But I mean, I think, you know, it's a. You're having a trying experience personally and you have this high powered job and you're trying to hold it all together. And, you know, we're all terrible at asking for help, especially if you're a professional problem solver. So it does end up having, like, ripple effects.

[A]

It does and sometimes you go, I think, through those life phases where you just have a lot happening at the same time. But I was able to work through that. And it's funny, like over the years now, since then, I can't even get my brain to go back to a place like that. But I did end up getting promoted during that time and leading the housewares team and doing these things. And it was a juxtaposition in terms of there were a lot of great things happening in my life, but there were a lot of things that weren't great happening in my life at the same time.

[B]

Amazing and holding it all together. So now you move to San Francisco and how long are you there before you exit Walmart?

[A]

I was there four years before I exited. It was a very different culture. It's, you know, no one really cared what your job title was. They wanted to be inspired by what they were working on. And I loved that about coming and working in an E commerce environment. And my last [e-mail] was being the president and CEO of Hey Needle, which was a 600 million home furnishing company that was online and it was losing $100 million at the time. And our mandate was to go make it profitable and figure out if we should integrate it into the company or not. And so that was my first experience really leading as a president of a division. And I don't think I would have had those opportunities had I stayed in what was a very safe environment in Bentonville.

[B]

So where do you go from there?

[A]

I end up leaving Walmart. I felt like I really liked the trajectory of my career. I liked where it was growing, I liked the learning aspect. And so I ended up going to Serta Simmons Bedding, which seems like an odd choice at the time.

[B]

Oh, wait, we skipped a piece because you actually went to JCPenney for a brief stint.

[A]

That was a long time ago. That was a long time ago.

[B]

But you did try a different retailer.

[A]

I did. In the midst of that, yes, in the midst of that. I was a boomerang.

[B]

Brought you back.

[A]

I was a boomerang to Walmart early in my career. I was, yes. But I was part of the JCPenney transformation, which.

[B]

The Ron Johnson.

[A]

The Ron Johnson era, Yes. I had a front row seat to that. And I didn't know I'd be a CEO at the time, but it taught me a lot about how not to lead a transformation of that magnitude.

[B]

But it's an interesting thing because actually when you tell the Walmart story, it's almost like it didn't happen because you did boomerang back, but in some ways it was its own messy story because you went out and came back.

[A]

Yeah. So when I left Walmart, I was hired at Certism is betting to be the CEO of Tuft and Needle because they were working, they had just acquired that company and they were looking to digitize this 150 year old mattress company so the Serta and Beautyrest brands. And this was interesting to me because I'd always worked for cash rich publicly traded companies. It was private equity owned by Advent, one of the, you know, best private equity companies. And it was in distress and they were in this transformation.

[B]

What is it about you that likes to fix things?

[A]

It seemed like there was a huge opportunity to reach customers in a different way. And I like things that are complex

[B]

because that's actually an interesting thing. Right. Like some people might see things where, you know, it's not doing well and they get the opportunity and they're like, why would I go do that? There's too much risk involved. Or, you know, maybe I can't do that. But you run towards that. Like, and so there has to be something that, I mean, besides like that you like the complexity that makes you want to fix something.

[A]

I like learning. I am motivated by learning. And so if there's something there that I think I can learn from either the people, the challenge, those sorts of

[B]

things, like, do you worry that you might not succeed? Because, I mean, it's hard to turn big things around.

[A]

Yes. But I think throughout my career and throughout my life, like a risk is a muscle you develop over time. It starts as a small muscle and then the more risks you take, your muscle for risk gets bigger. Like when I dropped out of college and ended up going back and it being this accelerant for me, I was like, oh, okay, that built my risk muscle a little bit. I know I can come back from that. And then when I took different roles that were bigger at Walmart and I didn't do things exactly right the first time and I could build back from that, I was like, okay, I can take bigger risks.

[B]

When you left to go to JCPenney, what made you think that you could go back to Walmart?

[A]

I think I did a good job for them.

[B]

And you left in a way that you felt like you could go back, which. So how you exit a company is actually a really key lesson.

[A]

How you exit a company matters. But then I did a good job for them. Like, I treated people well, I delivered results, I stayed in touch with people. I was able to explain why I wanted to come back. I was humble about it.

[B]

Okay, sorry I had to go back to that because I think sometimes we leave jobs and I've left many jobs and it's hard to think about going back. But you actually were humble enough to be able to go back. Because there can be a part of somebody who's like, no, I can't do that, like it doesn't look good or what'll they think of me? And you actually didn't have that.

[A]

But you still have to deal with the year of some people not saying hi to you in the hallway or some people just did.

[B]

They think you were a traitor.

[A]

That's why they didn't. Being skeptical. Yes. You, you have to earn people's trust back after something like that. And so, you know, the first year you go back, you're just like proving to people you want to be there. So there is. You have to be willing to be humble enough to go back and know it's not one day in that culture. Yeah, you've gotta be humble for all of it. And you really have to be humble the first year you're back. To me, Walmart was important enough to me and I loved the company enough. I'm like, I will go through that process. It's gonna be painful and uncomfortable, but this is where I wanna be. So I will go through that.

[B]

That's a great lesson. Okay, so now you go to become CEO of what is clearly a turnaround and one that's being driven by a private equity firm, which is very different.

[A]

Right, right. So.

[B]

And this has a good messy story. So let's go.

[A]

So I, I was the chief operating officer at Certa Simmons and I had been there about 18 months and I had led. We're leading their digital transformation. And then it was during COVID and I was leading manufacturing for them and we had put a team together to work through building new capabilities and processes within the supply chain team. And I ended up resigning from the company as the chief operating officer and the board ended up stepping in and having a conversation with me and asking me if I would stay and become the CEO of the company. And we had a lot of conversations about that. So SERTA had a billion dollar balloon debt payment due in the middle of 23. You have to start restructuring and refinancing these things about a year in advance. And I really liked my board at the time and several board members I just really would run through a wall for. So I decided to stay so at the back part of December of 21, I became the CEO. And if we remember, in the start of 2022 is when interest rates started to rise, which became a less than ideal time to try to restructure a billion dollars worth of debt.

[B]

Was your panic attacks coming back about this moment?

[A]

No. High levels of anxiety, but no. No panic attacks. Maybe I've learned to deal with stress better or something. But I remember getting a call in five or six months after I became the CEO, and it was from our outside legal counsel, and they basically said, you're now at divergent interest from your owners.

[B]

What does that even mean?

[A]

I had to think about it and ask, you know, and we had to have a conversation about it. But basically it meant that Advent, our private equity company, was not going to be the one leading the financial restructure for the company. My job was.

[B]

You're going to have to say this in plain old English.

[A]

My job was to serve Certa, Simmons Betting and all of its 3,700 employees and leave that company and those people in the best position possible following whatever financial transaction was going to happen.

[B]

So then what happened?

[A]

If we couldn't restructure, refinance the debt, which we were going to try to do, the company was going to essentially default to the creditors. And so we were meeting with them.

[B]

Was this even remotely fun?

[A]

It wasn't fun. And I had a decision to make. I mean, just to be fair, and I see a lot of CEOs do the opposite of what I did. Is when you find out you're going to go through this process, there's a likelihood or a possibility that you're going to take a company through chapter 11. You know this as a CEO, six months before it happens, that that might happen, you can go apply and get another job. Yeah, you can leave.

[B]

You can have a plan B.

[A]

You can have a plan B. So, you know, I was sitting with that decision. It's like, do I go get another job or do I stay and lead this team through this? And it was a very easy answer for me. Like, I, you know, was not going to leave the team and not do this.

[B]

So you decide to stay, you end up taking the company through bankruptcy, really difficult situation. And then what happens? We're going to get to the punchline. We are. Because, you know, like, here you are, you do the right thing by all measures. And then what happens?

[A]

Three weeks after we emerge from Chapter 11, I get fired because the company went through a change of control.

[B]

Did they do it on a sticky

[A]

they didn't do it on a sticky.

[B]

How did you get the news?

[A]

And I love the Mickey Drexler podcast, so anyone who hasn't listened to that should. But, no, I did not get fired on a sticky.

[B]

How did you get that phone call or whatever, the message.

[A]

Before these things happen, you have an intuition that things are not working right. There was.

[B]

We all. We all know when it's coming.

[A]

And this, as we talked about before, it's like, in my heart of hearts, like, this wasn't where my best skill set was going to be leveraged. Right. So, yeah, so I'm at home on a Monday morning. It was, you know, unceremonious. I just got a call, and they said, you know, we're going to make a leadership change. And they were all in our office in Atlanta, and I was on a phone call at home.

[B]

How long did the phone call last?

[A]

Probably 10 minutes.

[B]

How'd you feel?

[A]

I mean, it was not unexpected, so. And I. And I think they could tell it wasn't unexpected for me. So it was just one of those moments where.

[B]

No, like, I mean, did you feel like throwing up? I mean, let's just go back to how did it feel? Because, I mean, anybody else listening to this crazy story will have that visceral reaction. Like, it. Even though it feels out of body, it had to have felt terrible. Even if you knew it was coming,

[A]

it does feel terrible. And what. What was interesting about it is I had handled a CEO transition, obviously, when I became CEO, and there were joint town halls and goodbyes to the team and the previous CEO. The previous CEO. What I would have expected in that situation would be the opportunity to do that and to have a town hall and say, I want to thank the team for three years of leading through Covid and leading through this process. I believe in the business going forward and, you know, have this sort of ability to say goodbye.

[B]

But in this case, you weren't given that.

[A]

I was not given the chance to do that, nor include a quote in the press where you would say, like, hey, I'm just, you know, it's been a great, you know, whatever. I would have said, you know, okay,

[B]

so I'm going with gut punch.

[A]

Yeah, so it is a gut punch. And it's just this acknowledgement of, like, you trust people to treat you a certain way, and they don't, and you're just kind of like, in shock a little bit, and then you've got to work through all of the logistics of the whole thing, but never once. And I will Say this. I was never gonna fight it. I was never not gonna sign the paperwork right away. I just made a decision immediately. I'm not looking back, and I'm moving forward. And that was the best thing in the world for me. And I. I think Sally said this on your podcast, too, which I think is great. And then when it was announced the next day, I got this flood of, like, phone calls, text messages, emails from, like, my biggest customers, from people at the company, from people I'd worked with before that were just, like, telling me the impact I made and asking me what I was going to do next and just wishing me well, which was so important during that time. And I've saved so many of those. And I think sometimes when people are fired for jobs, you're like, oh, I'm going to give them space. And it's like, there was a woman that I used to work with that was fired from her much larger profile job maybe two months after I was. And some of our former colleagues were like, oh, we're going to give her space now. And I'm like, give her no space. Email her today and tell her she did a great job. Call her. And it's just like, at that. On those moments, those tough moments, that's where we really need to lean in for each other. And that's what I appreciated people doing for me.

[B]

I think I told you this when I interviewed Bobby Brown for the Wall Street Journal. She said that even though she'd built this company and sold it and made a lot of money, and Estee Lauder, after she was fired, her team wasn't allowed to call her. So she really didn't have at least this one moment of people reaching out to her, which she said was really devastating.

[A]

We really have to put on a bigger hat here and figure out some of those things that take a very traumatizing experience in someone's career and make it hurt less.

[B]

That is actually part of the reason you and I got connected. And you actually are now the CEO of a new business, which is a startup, so why don't you talk about that?

[A]

Yes. So that experience was really transformative for me.

[B]

So I would say transformative and also terrible.

[A]

Well, and I want to go back to one piece that we left out about this, which was if I lay out this timeline of the eight months leading up to me being fired, my chief marketing officer, her name's Jen Daly, she called me in the summer of 2022, and she said, hey, I'm leaving work early. I have a little bit of acid reflux. It's been here for days. I'm gonna leave work a little bit early. And then by Sunday, she said, they're moving me into oncology. And then they let her know that at 47 years old, she had pancreatic cancer.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And so that was the summer of 22, and by November, I got a call from her, and she said, I'm dying. So it happened very quickly. I have that situation where I had a dear friend die, Two young boys under the age of 10, and then two months later, we file for bankruptcy, and then six months later, I get fired. So for me, it was like all of these just, like, very big life quakes that were happening all at once. My executive coach, who knew all of these experiences, Lori, she's absolutely incredible, called me, like, two days after I was fired, and she goes, you know, you can't just go take another job after this. Right. You actually need to take a break and reflect on everything that's happened. And for me, that notion was absolutely terrifying.

[B]

No, because you actually just keep moving forward.

[A]

Yeah, I just want to do. I just keep moving forward and just, you know, you have to pull another phoenix and rise from the ashes again and do these things over. Keep moving, Keep moving. And so she was so right in telling me that. And I told her how scared I was because I had recruiters reaching out with job opportunities. I had some of my biggest customers reached out and said, hey, do you want to come work with us? And I said, what am I supposed to tell everyone, Lori? And she said, tell them you've made a promise to yourself that you're going to take six months off and that you're happy to talk to them after that. After six months of taking sabbatical, I knew it needed to be a year. That's how much I was growing during my sabbatical. And so I think three months into my sabbatical, you and I were both at Fortune, Most Powerful Women together. And you were on a panel, and. And I think the panel was around something related to marketing. But as you always do, very authentically to yourself, you made it about something so much bigger. And you started talking about your own sabbatical, and you talked about it very openly and transparently. And you said, okay, when I took my sabbatical, people would call me and say, you're so brave, which essentially meant you were crazy. And you talked about how much your sabbatical meant to you in terms of your own personal growth and how that made you a better executive. And so I Approached you after, I think you remember. And I just said, hey, can we keep in touch? I'm on my own sabbatical. No one's talking about this. And you and I had this acknowledgement of we can pull people together to start talking about this.

[B]

I remember you came to see me, I'd done the panel, and you found me afterwards. And then a couple months later, you were coming to New York and you reached out and said, can we sit down? And again, I remember you being a really good student because you were taking notes, and I couldn't even remember. I was like, why is she taking notes? Like, what am I even saying? And then I said to you, because you sent me back the notes, which was also amazing, and I said, I think this is a LinkedIn post. We should try and actually write this to help other people, which is kind of our instinct, you and I. And then I remember saying to you, you know, you're not alone, because it does feel very lonely. I said, we should connect you to some other people. I know other people going through this. And, like, you were like, wait, yes, there's other people. And now we have a hundred women, really 100 executives going through this. And I think, you know, there's not enough support. And if you rise to the level of a C suite executive role or a founder who gets to, you know, have a successful exit, you don't have a lot of community around you, because your community really is the people you work with. Because how can you manage a personal life and a professional life and. And do that? I joke, like, we all got used to sleeping under our desk because it was what was expected.

[A]

No one gets to that level of a company or founds a company without sacrificing so much and has talked about so little. Most people don't even know to name it. Grief. Whether you voluntarily or involuntarily leave a job or retire, there's a grieving process that happens, and we never even name it that. So having this community to explore this with and to make this feeling of isolation go away and to help explore these concepts around, who am I now? What is my identity? Who am I if I'm not working?

[B]

What I've noticed in the group that we've pulled together is that they're not people who are looking to retire. They're actually people who have one more in them. That's what they often say. And actually some of them have gone back to do one more, so they have less to prove because they've already proved it. But they still want to have impact. One of the conversations we have all the time is like, you need to widen your aperture. Maybe you can run a nonprofit, maybe you can buy a company. I mean, these are things that people don't even think to talk about.

[A]

Well, it's funny because we have had a couple who were retiring who really said, okay, I'm going to take a year and spend time with my grandkids and do this or that. But then even after that year, come back and say, okay, now I'm exploring this other thing. So I think even as people take more time away, they discover that desire to have an impact or do something with their time.

[B]

I mean, I think for many people, especially if you've been in the world of work, you found purpose through that. And so it's hard to step away because I think people do need a sense of purpose. But I think opening up your aperture to how you define that purpose can actually be life changing. Like for me, the podcast or starting a nonprofit. There's other ways of having impact than just having a C suite job. You know, I don't need to be CMO for six time.

[A]

Well, and I think we're finding that with leadership today, I mean, we're going to have to upskill an entire generation of folks with AI. There's folks that need help with, you know, nonprofits, hunger relief, etc. The world just needs a lot right now, and it's palpable. It's like the world needs leaders to step in and help people now and build community and do these things. And I think the leaders we talk to know that they have these amazing skills that can make an impact.

[B]

I also think there's like an intergenerational opportunity now. Like, instead of sort of looking at young people and thinking like, oh, they're so different from us, there's sort of this window of, can you come together in different ways to solve new problems? Because we have different problems.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I was going to ask you, actually, because you're such an expert on retail, what do you think about retail and AI? Because that is also going to be transformative in a lot of ways for the business.

[A]

It is. I think, you know, where retailers like Walmart are ready for this and they've spent decades, you know, becoming ready for this. Many retailers are not. And I think, you know, retail itself is going to require a tremendous amount of leadership to really paint a strategy for how AI is going to build their business. I think like anything else, there's going to be big disruption. But I Think at the end of the day you have a lot of associates that are stocking shelves, serving customers every single day and that's meaningful for people. And we've seen that in the data over time. I mean, we've seen retailers go from self checkout across the board to pulling that back because actually customer sentiment falls when you don't have people involved in the business. And so I think where we see the biggest impact and why there's so much dialog is because this is actually impacting white collar jobs now.

[B]

Okay, I'm going to do rapid fire. I have to put on my glasses because that's where I'm at. Messiest moment. On a scale of 1 to 10, what was it and what's the number you'd give it?

[A]

I mean, it's probably the whole eight months that I shared with you in 2022 and for sure that's a 10.

[B]

When was the last time you cried?

[A]

Last week I saw a dog rescue video. I cried, it got rescued. It's in a happy home now, but it's made me tear up.

[B]

What's one thing everyone should do before they're 35?

[A]

Go to Paris.

[B]

Okay, career myth that you think is

[A]

a waste of time, probably that you have to have some sort of degree to be successful at something.

[B]

One thing you'd never do again, lead through a restructuring. Best advice for someone who's navigating a

[A]

pivot, Take your time.

[B]

Advice for someone who's having a crisis in confidence.

[A]

Call a friend. Call a true friend who is going to remind you of who you are.

[B]

Thank you so much. It was a great conversation.

[A]

A lot of messy parts. And we're not done.

[B]

And we're not done. Thank you so much for getting to the end of the messy Parts with Shelley Huff. There was a lot of effed up parts with in that damn story. We can say that, right? Because we talk about messy. Thank you so much for getting to the end. Remember to tell 10 friends to listen, to review, to like it and you know, life, it's filled with messy parts. It's not how you fall, it's how you pick yourself back up.