← The Messy Parts
The Messy Parts
From Her Parents' Basement to Editor-in-Chief (Twice): Danielle Belton's Comeback Story
00:42:44
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- [00:00]
A
I made a promise to myself at that point that if I ever got stable, I would live publicly with the illness. Because when I was sick, all I ever saw were other sick people. And I thought, well, this is it. This is just gonna be my life. I'm just gonna be in and out of hospitals and I'm never gonna amount to anything. I wouldn't have had that mindset if I had seen other people with bipolar disorder or anxiety disorders, like, living their life and being open about it. And so I said, I'm gonna be open about it if I get stable because I want people to know that there's life after this.
- [00:32]
B
It's amazing. Cause in sharing your story, you're giving hope to other people.
- [00:35]
A
That's what I want, you know? Cause that's what I needed.
- [00:46]
B
Today on the Messy Parts podcast, you're gonna meet Danielle Belton. She's the former editor in chief of HuffPo, and she's had an illustrious career, writer, journalist, artist. But the reason to listen to this episode is because she's had crushing defeats, both personally and professionally. Along the way, she struggled with mental illness. Despite this incredible career, you will leave hopeful, motivated, and not afraid to go after the very thing that you want. Hey, it's Miriam. We wanted to let you know that today's episode of the Messy Parts contains a candid discussion of mental illness and suicidal ideation. If you or a loved one is struggling or in crisis, please seek help. Free and confidential support is available 24. 7. Just dial or text 988 to connect with the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline or visit 988lifeline.org you don't have to go through it alone. Okay, here's the episode. So, Danielle, I really love doing research on your story. I watched a commencement talk that you gave and I learned a lot about you. And so I wanna start at the beginning because you describe your childhood with these very loving parents and two sisters. But you describe yourself as a kid who was shy, which was interesting to me because I don't consider you shy.
- [02:10]
A
Well, I don't know if shy is the right word. I was awkward. It was hard for me to make friends because I was a little old person in a young person's body. Like, I pretty much was born 32 and it was really awkward to be a 32 year old, 6 year old with anxiety and worries and I was very stressed out. I don't know why I was so stressed out at that age, but I was extremely stressed out and I didn't understand other children. They didn't make sense to me. And so I got picked on a lot for being, you know, a nerd. And I always wanted to play by myself. I didn't really want to play with the other children because they were often mean to me.
- [02:50]
B
I read that when you described your anxiety as a kid, it almost was like something was crawling over you.
- [02:56]
A
Yeah, it was very visceral.
- [02:58]
B
Yeah. And hard for your parents to understand or hard for you to have words for that?
- [03:02]
A
Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, it started when I was probably about 4. I was afraid of like everything. Camera flashes, loud noises, bright lights, heights, bugs. Like, you name it, I was afraid of it. Bugs were probably the worst because I would have a complete meltdown, like screaming, crying, completely terrified. And it drove my parents crazy because they just couldn't figure out like how to stop it. This is the 80s, you know, my parents are silent generation era parents. They only had so much patience for this. And so it got to a point where they just basically just told me it was all in my head. All I learned how to do was to hide it. Cause it's all still there. It's never completely 100% gone away.
- [03:45]
B
So you're growing up and you clearly were a kid who liked the news. I read that you loved the news since you were like 11.
- [03:52]
A
Yeah.
- [03:53]
B
So did you turn that anxiety inward into like writing and news? Like how did that relate?
- [03:59]
A
Both my parents were news junkies. So I was inundated with just facts and information and current events. And my parents have these lively conversations about politics and history. And me being a 32 year old, 6 year old, always wanted to pipe in with my kid opinions. And unlike most parents of their generation who would have just told me to shut up and go somewhere, they actually would engage with me. Plus, I love to read, so I pretty much read anything I could get my hands on. And so journalism, just the news was a natural fit. Cause it was something new every day that I got to read. And with my anxiety, yes, I did channel a lot of it into my creativity because I could draw and I could write. And I would spend hours and hours making cartoons and drawing comic strips and writing little novels and short stories. And I even made a little mini magazine called the Tuesday Times.
- [04:49]
B
Did you have friends?
- [04:51]
A
Not really. When I was little little, I did not have many friends. I had one close friend, Yolanda Wilson, my friend from kindergarten. It's a funny story, I came home from school one day complaining to my mother about there's this little girl and she keeps bothering me and My mother was like, what does she do? I'm like, she keeps asking me to play with her. And I was confused by it. And my mom was just like, why don't you just try playing with her? I was like, okay, that seems weird, but I'll give it a shot. And so the next day at school, Yolanda, who's like a normal, you know, five year old, six year old child, is like, hi, do you want to play? And I was just like, I guess, sure. And I played with her and we got along great. And I made a friend that day. And we've been friends, I mean, pretty much ever since. And then she moved when we were in the third grade. And I was devastated because I had literally no other friends.
- [05:43]
B
Were you on the school newspaper?
- [05:45]
A
Yes. I was very active in school despite my unpopularity, because I didn't know any other way to be. Like, I was very outgoing.
- [05:53]
B
You go to college?
- [05:54]
A
Yes.
- [05:54]
B
And you study English because you knew you were going to go into journalism?
- [05:57]
A
I actually started out as an art major because I thought I wanted to be an artist. I wanted to be a newspaper cartoonist quite badly. And so I went to study art at siue and my dad was just like, this is a terrible idea. Because he knew I was going to hate it. Cause he knew I just liked to tell stories with my art. It was still just writing at the end of the day. And so I remember I had to build a box out of wood for an art project. And I hated it so much and I was so bad at it. And my dad, who is also an artist, he can draw and he can build things. And he basically helped me build the box. And then he pulled me aside and he said, hey, you know, I wonder, have you ever considered the journalism program? I. I said, I don't think there's any money. And my dad was like, I was gonna let you be an artist and there's no money, so. And I was like, that's a good point. And so I. From there I switched to the journalism program and it was. Those were my people. The art kids, God bless them, were not my people. Journalism students were my vibe. Like they had so much knowledge about so many different things and they were so creative and so funny and so interested in the world and, you know, and really motivated. And so I was really happy in the J school program at siue.
- [07:07]
B
What happened to your anxiety at this point?
- [07:09]
A
Oh, it was still there. It never went anywhere. Like, my anxiety has followed me my entire life. Sometimes it's worse than others. Like, I'D win awards for my work at school. And then I wouldn't want to show up for the awards ceremony because I couldn't handle the attention from people.
- [07:23]
B
Had you learned what it was or any coping mechanisms?
- [07:27]
A
No, I still didn't have any at that point.
- [07:29]
B
At what point did you get married in college?
- [07:31]
A
After I graduated in 99. I got married in 2001 after I moved to Texas for my first job in journalism.
- [07:41]
B
And you met him in college?
- [07:43]
A
Yes.
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B
And I love that you describe him as a bad decision.
- [07:47]
A
Yes, it was a terrible, terrible, terrible decision.
- [07:51]
B
Wait, so why did you marry him?
- [07:54]
A
Oh, I was very sheltered as a kid. I had high, low self esteem, if that makes sense. So it's like on the one hand I was very confident, but there's this whole other side of me. Right. I couldn't get boys to talk to me. Every boy I pursued either already had a girlfriend and wasn't interested or just wanted to have fun and wasn't interested. I thought I was the problem. I didn't realize that I had chosen a school where most of the students weren't sure if they were even gonna finish. It was a former commuter college that transitioned into a four year institution. And a lot of the students, this was like their best shot at getting a college degree. I ended up there as a coincidence because my mom wouldn't give me $20 for college applications. My mom was cheap because she was traumatized by the poverty she grew up in as a child. So she could be really ridiculous about minor things that wouldn't bother anybody else. She never wanted to spend more than $10 on anything.
- [08:48]
B
And it was a $20 application?
- [08:50]
A
Yes. And SIUE was free. And so rather than listen to her yell at me about $20, I said, I'll just apply for this free school and go here. And of course I got in. Cause I wasn't a student. And so most of the other students were not a students. Like they were all really struggling. And the boys weren't serious because they weren't looking to settle down or find a girlfriend or find a wife or find anything. And so therefore I wasn't of interest to them because I was a serious person.
- [09:17]
B
But you found one who was interested.
- [09:20]
A
Yes, who stalked me. And I didn't recognize that it was stalking until I was already too deep in the relationship. And I just thought, well, this boy likes me, so I should just give him a shot. No other boy is trying to talk to me, so I should just be grateful that I have this one. And that was like the worst decision ever. I mean, when you're young, you have this problem where you think that this is it. Like, this is forever, and it's like, no life is long.
- [09:49]
B
How did you figure out not to stay in this bad relationship and to stop being grateful and actually break that habit?
- [09:56]
A
Oh, I think for me, he basically effectively isolated me from all my friends and family. And I started to recognize that none of my dreams were going to come true if I stayed with this man. Like, he had no ambition. He refused to go to work. He refused to go back to school. He just wanted to live off of me and, like, go to kung fu competitions. I took the end of the marriage really hard because I felt like I had ruined my life. You know, historically, there's a lot of pressure put on women to, you know, get married. You have to have a man, otherwise you're not worthy. And I realized that all that messaging was wrong. I learned that the hardest way possible.
- [10:35]
B
How long were you together?
- [10:36]
A
We dated for two years, and we're married for about a year.
- [10:39]
B
So you. You recognize that you're in a bad situation. Then you moved to California.
- [10:44]
A
I moved to California to work for the Bakersfield Californian in 2002.
- [10:49]
B
And this is actually where you're like, a star, but also your mental health issues begin to really catch up with you. Tell us about that.
- [10:57]
A
So basically, after my marriage fell apart, I entered a deep depression. Like, I think I lost 30 pounds in a month, like, something crazy. While I never developed any proper coping skills for my anxiety, I developed one problematic skill that was my own way of coping with it was to just pretend like the anxiety wasn't happening. So I'm very good at ignoring my anxiety and just powering through and continuing to work and do what I need to do to get the job done. The problem is it takes a toll over time and eventually causes psychological collapse.
- [11:28]
B
So did it begin to show up in physical waste?
- [11:30]
A
Yes. So like a grain of sand in my eye that wouldn't go away. There was no grain of sand there. You know, I had this dry eye feeling, burning mouth syndrome where my mouth felt like my tongue was scalded and the roof of my mouth was burnt, and I couldn't taste food or smell food properly for, like, a month. Probably the most annoying is when I call the lookups. That's where I get so stressed out that I get blinded by the lights in the ceiling. I keep searching for something that's not there. It's like a short circuit in my brain happens, and suddenly I can't focus. I hate that one. But probably the one that I hated the most is this horrible clenching neck twitch that happens. It's very violent looking. And when that happens, I just have to go home and go to bed. Like it's just because there's nothing to be done about it.
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B
And so how are you functioning at work? Because, I mean, journalism is not an easy career.
- [12:23]
A
No, no. And I, like I said, I was very ambitious. So I took on a lot of work and a lot of different roles at the Californian. I from like 8am in the morning and I'd stay at work to like 10 o' clock at night some nights. And it would manifest in that I would start to get really bad anxiety after a while. It really started after one of my editors outed me as being divorced.
- [12:44]
B
What do you mean?
- [12:45]
A
I was at a bar with my co workers and one of my editors and I was complaining about my ex. I would always say, oh, I have this ex and he's crazy. I just let people think he was my boyfriend. And I made an offhanded remark about him at the bar. And my boss at the time had remembered, you know, that when I applied for the job had a different last name from when I came to work there. And so she knew that I was going through a divorce at the time. She goes, yeah, aren't you glad you divorced that guy? And so everyone goes, oh my God, you were married to him. And then I just like just started drinking lemon drops, which were like the cocktail that she had bought for me. And so I just drank them the whole night until I was lost because I was in denial that I'd ever been married. I just didn't want to deal with that mistake anymore and the shame that came with it. And so for that summer, I pretty much had terrible anxiety. I would go to work and I would need to like take a shot of tequila by lunch. Cause the anxiety would just be so bad in my chest. The heart palpitations and the shortness of breath. And so my bosses all thought I was really efficient. Cause I would get my work done before 11. Cause I knew the anxiety was coming at noon. So I needed to get whatever stories I had in like as early as possible. So my city editor was happy, but I was absolutely miserable. And I eventually kind of like fell to pieces. By that fall, I went to the same editor that outed me. I went to her and told her how I wanted to take some time off, maybe go to a hospital. So I took a couple weeks off and got on antidepressants, and then, like, tried to figure it all out. And of course it didn't work because by the next year, I was in a mental hospital regardless.
- [14:24]
B
Were you at work when you ended up checking into the mental hospital the first time?
- [14:31]
A
How did I end up in the mental hospital? Oh, I wasn't at work. I had taken the day off. I had fallen to pieces that day. And I remember going to the er, trying to get admitted to the hospital. And so the doctors take me in, they do a bunch of tests, they can't find anything wrong with me, and they send me home. And I remember I had an appointment with my therapist. And I admit to my therapist, I think I need to be in the hospital. And I just couldn't get in. And so she's like, do you agree that you'll actually go to the mental hospital that you want to go? And I said, yes. She says, good, I'm going to call your psychiatrist now. We're going to get you in one. And so she went through that process, and she tells me, do you have anyone who can drive you because you can't take yourself? And I told him about my friend Jennifer and Lydia, and they came and got me. And I remember distinctly my doctor telling them, no matter what she says, she's already agreed to go to the hospital, so even if she changes her mind, still take her to the hospital. And I was like, well, why would I do that? I wouldn't change my mind. And, like, sure enough, like, after we go to my house, I gather my stuff, we get in the car, we're driving to the hospital. I'm like, you know, guys, I actually feel like I'm fine now. They were like, nope, nope. Your doctor said, you have to go. We're taking you to the hospital. And so then I was placed in the Bakersfield Mental Hospital for about a week.
- [15:45]
B
And had you told your parents that first time?
- [15:50]
A
I'm sure I told my mom. I get things all confused now. Cause it was four different hospitalizations in my 20s, and I remember about two of them.
- [16:00]
B
Well, and your dad, had you told him?
- [16:03]
A
I probably hadn't told my dad, because.
- [16:05]
B
I think I read that that was a really hard thing to do. Tell your dad.
- [16:08]
A
Yeah, my dad had a hard time in the beginning accepting that I had a mental illness. He was really scared for me, and he just thought, I just need to make more money. And I'm just like, most people don't get suicidal because they're not making enough money. Like, something is clearly, clearly wrong. With me.
- [16:22]
B
When were you diagnosed with the bipolar?
- [16:24]
A
I was diagnosed in December 2005.
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B
Still in California?
- [16:31]
A
Yes, it was in Los Angeles at UCLA's medical center.
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B
I definitely also have the ability to dissociate from my feelings. Not quite to the degree that you're describing, but definitely. You know, I remember when my father passed away, people would ask me where my dad was and I would sort of like, joke through it. Right. It's definitely a coping mechanism. You're describing something that's pretty severe.
- [16:51]
A
Yeah.
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B
On the one hand, you're excelling at work. At the other hand, you're completely falling apart. How did you make your way through showing up at work on a day to day basis?
- [17:04]
A
You know, that's an interesting question, because I. I couldn't explain it. There was just part of me that just wanted it so bad, and I wanted to be good at it. At the expense of my own mental health. It was the only thing that mattered to me. You know, like, I'm not married. My marriage fell apart. I don't have kids. And so my career just meant so much to me. And it always had because I'd had dreams and ambitions for myself since I was like, you know, five or six years old. I never thought, oh, I'll probably just, you know, get married, have a whole bunch of kids and like, live like a nice, normal life like my mom lived.
- [17:38]
B
I read somewhere that you were in a meeting and you, like, fell asleep or you just fell over because it was. And that. That was like a turning point for you at work?
- [17:46]
A
Yes. I was the entertainment reporter at the time on the lifestyle desk. And my then editor was having one of her meetings, and I hadn't slept in days, and I fell asleep in the middle of the meeting. And she got really angry at me. She went and told one of our bosses and the leadership at the Bakersfield Californian. I can't say enough good things about them. Were very supportive of me. And so their initial response was, wait, that doesn't sound like Danielle. That's not good. Why would she just fall asleep in your face? Something must be medically wrong. And so I remember they had this emergency meeting. They dragged me into Mike Jenner's office. He was the executive editor of the Californian at the time. And they basically ordered me to take a week off and go see a doctor to make sure I don't have narcolepsy.
- [18:27]
B
But finally there's this breaking point. Cause you leave.
- [18:30]
A
Yes.
- [18:31]
B
And you're, like, done with journalism and you literally move back home. Into your parents basement, the way you describe it, yes. And so what, what was that like?
- [18:39]
A
It was humiliating. You know, I felt like I was just another gifted and talented kid that never amounted to anything. It was just like, well, what was all that for?
- [18:48]
B
Was there a moment where you were like, okay, I gotta give this career up and move home?
- [18:52]
A
There wasn't like a singular moment. It was like after the hospitalization in la, I. I tried to go back to work. I was like a zombie. I was on so much medication, I found no joy in anything. And my therapist, Janet Perucci, at the time, she basically said I needed to go home. You know, Janet, who is a wonderful person, she's probably one of the best therapists I've ever had in my life. She saved my life on countless occasions when I was living in California. And she talked to my mom and dad and she talked to my mom and she told her, know she needs to go home.
- [19:25]
B
I can see it's an emotional moment for you. You go back home and your parents were obviously very loving parents but not equipped to deal with this situation. How did they respond?
- [19:42]
A
You know, my parents are very resilient people and so going to say so are you? Yes. They were very much like, well, it's time to get to work. You know, it's like we have to get her well by whatever means it takes. And so they were very understanding. And you know, my family is the reason why I'm still sitting on this couch.
- [20:08]
B
You know, you go home and I read that you were like, I wasn't bathing, I wasn't doing anything. Until your mom cuts off your cell phone.
- [20:17]
A
Yeah. They were so frustrated with me because I couldn't. I just could not function. I wasn't taking care of my. My mom was basically like, I'm not gonna pay for your cell phone, so you need to get a job. And so I went to the local Macy's at the Dying mall in Florissant and applied for a seasonal job there. And of course I got it. Cause I'm grossly overqualified. And they.
- [20:43]
B
It's amazing they hired you.
- [20:45]
A
I know, I know. You know, they needed seasonal workers and so I was back there putting up Christmas lights and marking down merchandise.
- [20:52]
B
As somebody who definitely knows something about mental health issues, I will say as a parent, it's such a complicated thing because you're not always equipped to help.
- [21:01]
A
My mother used to say that she felt like dealing with me was like dealing with an alcoholic. She just felt like we just kept going back to start over and over and over again. Like, no matter what she did, she couldn't just will me over the finish line. Cause I had to do the work. I had to realize what was wrong and how I was gonna get better. Cause I ultimately had to make the decision and do the work.
- [21:20]
B
What made you do that? That's not an easy thing for most people to come to.
- [21:24]
A
No, I just feel like the world had just kicked my ass so much at that point where I just couldn't be arrogant anymore. Like, I had to accept I have a problem. I had to accept I have a severe mood disorder. I had to accept I have severe anxiety. I need to deal with these things, and I need to do whatever it takes to get well.
- [21:41]
B
Do you think being home and that proximity to your mom, in essence, is what turned you around?
- [21:48]
A
Yeah, I definitely think being home helped a lot because I wasn't alone. My parents could keep an eye on me. That was good. And I was able to test things out again and, like, slowly, you know, make my way back out into the world from the safety of their protection. So, like, I started my blog in 2007, that same year when I first moved back home. So I started it in the fall after I had just quit a job that I flamed out at. It was a PR firm. And I was so bad at that job. Like, I just couldn't function. But I still wanted to write. And so I said, oh, I'll just start a blog. Like, it'll be easy. There's blogspot. I'll just go on blogger and make a blog. And so I called it the Black Snob. And the blog was anonymous. And originally it was random, cheeky kind of thoughts, you know? And then in January 2008, Barack Obama won Iowa. And I was like, oh, I wish I was working at a newspaper right now. I really want to write something. And I was like, no, I'll just write it on my blog. And so I just wrote something real quick about the presidential race, and it just took off. And I started getting all this attention on the blog. And so I was like, oh, this is kind of fun. So I'm just going to keep writing. But you know me, like, I'm an extremist. So of course I was working on that blog, like, every day, like, six days a week. I only took Sundays off.
- [23:05]
B
You're still in the basement.
- [23:06]
A
Yes. And I updating the blog five to six times a day. I was very dedicated to it, even though I was still working a job at Macy's folding sweaters and the Blog took off. Like, I started getting pickup in ap, and I started going on npr. I started to feel good about myself in this one aspect of my life, because it was like, okay, I knew I had the skills as a writer to be able to make a name for myself, but I'm still, like, stuck. Cause I'm not making any money. I don't know how to make any money off of the blog. I don't have an mba. I'm not a business major. I don't know how to make money. I was on so much medication. I think I was on 11 different medications at one point. And it made me really flat and rather miserable. And so I had this turning point happen. I was in the hospital for suicidal ideation. Was my last hospitalization in 2009.
- [24:03]
B
This is back home in St. Louis?
- [24:05]
A
Yes, it's in St. Louis. And I get there, and they recommend ECT. It's like shock therapy. It's the more crude name for it. They basically use these electrical pulses to try to, like, fix your severe mood swings. And I didn't want that. That was, to me, a last ditch. And so I tell the doctor, you know, I think I'm on too much medication. And he's like, all right, we'll take you off some of it. And so he takes off most of the meds, except for, like, an antidepressant and a mood stabilizer. And then around this same time, I get this invite to speak at Harvard at their Black Policy Conference. And I am excited, but I'm afraid I've never been to the East Coast. You know, it's been a while since I was on a plane, and I'm sitting there talking to my mom about it. And my mom was really worried. She didn't really want me to go at first. And so we go to my doctor, and I tell him that I've been invited to speak at Harvard, and I don't know what to do because I'm afraid of how it might affect me. And he goes, you know what? You're the type of person that it'll make you equally as sick to do nothing. You need to find a balance in your life where you can still take care of yourself and still pursue your dreams. So he's like, please go to Boston. I think it'll be good for you.
- [25:18]
B
Did your mom come with you?
- [25:20]
A
No, I went by myself. I did a whole east coast tour with my blog. I visited dc, New York, and Boston. Spoke at the Harvard Black Policy Conference. And I felt like my old self. I felt Witty again. I had all this energy. I met lots of incredible people and I just, I remember like, oh, I am still this person. Like, she didn't die, you know, she didn't just go away because of the depression. She was there that whole time waiting to come back out again. The doctor was right. I needed to discover a work life balance and I need to get back out there. So I cashed in my 401k from the Bakersfield Californian and I told my parents I'm moving to Washington dc.
- [26:02]
B
Were they petrified?
- [26:05]
A
I mean, probably, but I was just like, eh, you know, like, I've always been the type of person that I'm not afraid to take a risk. You know, you have to be able to take a gamble on yourself if you really believe in your dreams and what you want to do. And I really did believe in my talent and, and I was just like.
- [26:25]
B
I'm going to try because you make the recovery seem so easy. And yet. No, it was not. No, right. It's like, oh, yeah, okay, you know what? And then I reconnect with the former self who finished school in three years and was a straight A student. And I'm like, I'm going to D.C. but really, that was a very complicated period of your life.
- [26:43]
A
Yeah, it was really hard. It was really, really hard. I remember I was up for a job and they asked me about my mental illness because this blogger had outed me as being in a mental hospital because he thought, I don't know, I guess he thought it was funny. People would Google me, like on job searches and they would find out like, oh, she was hospitalized. And they would ask me about it and I would feel really awkward and I would be honest. Like, I'd say, yes, I was hospitalized.
- [27:08]
B
Did that make people not want to hire you?
- [27:10]
A
Oh, I'm sure in that one case they did still go ahead and hire me, but it was another case where I didn't even get calls back.
- [27:17]
B
So if somebody's listening and going through a similar experience, I mean, you know, it is tough out there.
- [27:23]
A
Yes.
- [27:24]
B
Why do you think they should take away from your ability to make that comeback?
- [27:28]
A
I feel like the biggest thing they can probably take away from it is that, yes, it's long, yes, it's hard, but it can be done. When I was in the hospital in la, at one of the lowest points in my life, one of the doctors realized I was a writer and I was a journalist. And they were like, you should write about your illness. And I'm just like, dude, I'M just trying not to die here. Like, like give me some time. But I made a promise to myself at that point that if I ever got stable, I would live publicly with the illness. Because when I was sick, all I ever saw were other sick people. And I thought, well, this is it. This is just gonna be my life. I'm just gonna be in and out of hospitals and I'm never gonna amount to anything. I wouldn't have had that mindset if I had seen other people with bipolar disorder or anxiety disorders, like living their life and being open about it. And so I said I'm gonna be open about it if I get stable because I want people to know that there's life after this.
- [28:23]
B
It's amazing. Cause in sharing your story, you're giving hope to other people.
- [28:27]
A
That's what I want, you know, because that's what I needed. I needed hope in that moment. I didn't have it. I said I was lucky and that I had a family that loved me and was willing to put up with me. The illness really pushes people away cause it makes you so self centered.
- [28:42]
B
I read somewhere you said I'm a weeble wobble, you can knock me down, but I pick myself back up.
- [28:47]
A
Yes.
- [28:47]
B
Kinda like whack a mole. That's a thing to learn. Because in life we're all gonna get hit repeatedly. I mean, that is sort of just the deal. And it seems like you learn that early because by the way, we get to D.C. and it's not like it's a bed of roses.
- [29:02]
A
No.
- [29:03]
B
So walk us through that chapter. Cause you get to D.C. okay, so.
- [29:06]
A
I get to D.C. i get a job working for Win Without War, which is an anti war nonprofit, which of course runs out of money shortly. I get hired there because Barack Obama has been elected and war is over. Which actually wasn't true, but that's how most Americans felt. So they stopped donating to the project. And so after working there for like, I don't know, eight months, I get laid off. And I'm like trying to scrape together freelancing jobs. My blog only makes like $150 in Google Ads a month. My dad was very helpful, so I'm grateful to him because there were many times he paid my rent. I ended up freelancing for this website that no longer exists, owned by this very wealthy man who was insane. And he promised me the world. Like, oh, if you become the editor of my site, I'm gonna make you a millionaire. I'm like, oh, that sounds cool.
- [29:54]
B
Sounds good.
- [29:55]
A
Yeah. Sure. You know, and so I join it. And, like, I remember he bounced a check on me at one point, and so we had a really contentious relationship towards the end. And then I got the feeling that he wanted to push me out, so I just quit, you know, because I leave jobs. Jobs don't leave me. Yeah.
- [30:15]
B
You had a line, I think, in your commencement speech about, like, also leave a job if it's not the right job for you. You definitely are not afraid to step out to Pivot Jobs, to Pivot Industries. I mean, you're such an interesting mix because you have this incredible resilience and fearlessness.
- [30:30]
A
On the one side, I mean, I just. I operate in two different realms. So, like, on one side of me is very sensitive, and it's very moody and gets upset really easy, and it gets anxiety, is super frustrated. But then the other side of me is supremely confident, feels really good about themselves, thinks I'm, like, the cutest thing to ever be cute, and that nothing could ever stop us. And if someone doesn't want to be my friend, or our friend in this case, then there weren't a person worth even being around to begin with, because we're amazing.
- [31:05]
B
So you're in D.C. multiple jobs. Somewhere along the line, you decided you needed to work for the Root. Tell the listeners what the route is.
- [31:12]
A
The Root is one of the leading African American news publications. It's a digital publication that was started by Henry Louis Gates, the Scholar, along with Don Graham, the former owner of the Washington Post.
- [31:25]
B
So you decide you need to work there?
- [31:28]
A
Yes.
- [31:28]
B
And you really try?
- [31:30]
A
Oh, yeah. I got in good with literally every managing editor the Root ever had.
- [31:33]
B
But they didn't hire you?
- [31:35]
A
No, not until Lynn Pitts was the managing editor, and Lynn Pitts hired me in 2015.
- [31:43]
B
You're in D.C. and you go through a series of jobs, right?
- [31:45]
A
Yes.
- [31:45]
B
This works. That doesn't work. This works. That doesn't work. And then eventually, you end up at what you think is your dream job. The route.
- [31:51]
A
Yes.
- [31:51]
B
And it's amazing.
- [31:53]
A
Oh, yeah, it was. But it's like, at the same time, like, I was dealing with, like, severe depression. So it's like, the job was cool. I couldn't bring myself to go into the office. I was depressed because one of my close friends had passed away from colon cancer. Toya Watts. It was just wonderful, just vibrant, engaging woman. She was in her 40s when she got diagnosed, and she died, like, six months after the diagnosis. And so I had, like, this fatalistic viewpoint that nothing mattered because we're all going to die anyway.
- [32:24]
B
Are you showing up at the job? Because this was before Work from Home was a thing.
- [32:27]
A
I created Work from Home for myself. I did not go into the office. I still remember when my boss realized I wasn't going to the office because someone at the Washington Post wanted my office. They realized I was never in it.
- [32:38]
B
How long did that take?
- [32:40]
A
I think I was doing. I wasn't coming in for the office. It was almost a year.
- [32:44]
B
What?
- [32:45]
A
Yeah. Before she realized, because she was in New York.
- [32:47]
B
Oh, I see.
- [32:48]
A
Lynn was the type of boss where, as long as the work got done, she didn't really, like, get too upset. And so when she found out I wasn't going to the office, she just kind of was like, I thought I was in so much trouble. And I still remember, like, after I was there for about a year, one day she and Donna Bird, who's the publisher at the time, called me, and I'm like, oh, it's over. Like, I'm about to get fired. Like, this is a wrap. Well, it was a good run. And so I go into the meeting, and Donna and Lynn tell me that Lynn is leaving after being at the Root for about three years and that they want me to be the next managing editor and if I would be interested in the position. And I'm, like, shocked. My mood is so low that I can't even, like, appreciate what is happening. I remember they're telling me all about the role and trying to sell me on it and everything. They asked me if I had any questions. I only had one question. And I was like, well, is there money? Cause I was making, like, $62,000 a year at the time as an associate editor in Washington, D.C. and my rent was, like, astronomical. And so I'm like, no, no, no. Of course there's money. There's money. And I was like, okay, can I have a day or two to think about it? And so I call my dad, and I tell my dad I got offered the managing editor job. And my dad's like, what are you. Take the job. You need the money. Take the job. You need the money. Obviously, I took the job, and it turned out great. It was one of the best decisions I ever made.
- [34:09]
B
And you made amazing things happen at that.
- [34:11]
A
Yeah, it was really cool. I was there at the Root for a total of six years. In the first year of me being managing the editor, the Traffic increased by 300%.
- [34:20]
B
What made you leave?
- [34:21]
A
I was getting kind of complacent and a little bored. And then there was just the factor that I didn't own it. So there was only so much that I could ultimately do in the decision making. It was ultimately up to the people who owned it with what they wanted. And so this incredible opportunity popped up, which was the Huffington post, which was HuffPost. I was very comfortable at the root, and I was very happy there. But to be editor in chief of HuffPost was just like a game changer. So I couldn't pass up on that opportunity.
- [34:52]
B
It's such an interesting thing that you're describing, right? You're having this immense amount of success underlying it. There's so much turmoil, probably visible mostly to you. And so what was HuffPo like?
- [35:04]
A
HuffPost was fun. It was tough at first. It was a big adjustment for me that first year. I had a lot of anxiety.
- [35:14]
B
I'm gonna say you had anxiety the whole way.
- [35:16]
A
I did, but I just.
- [35:19]
B
So why was this different?
- [35:21]
A
There was no reason for it to be different. It's just a highly competitive nature of this industry. And so, like, I was really paranoid when I came into the Buzzfeed HuffPost family because I didn't know it was a site where I hadn't come from the ground up, like, at the root. I started out as an associate editor, and even before that I was a freelancer, and even before that, I knew every managing editor. So I had a good familiarity with the company, whereas with HuffPost everything was brand new. I didn't really know anybody who worked there, and it was the pandemic, so everything was virtual. So I didn't actually meet any of my staff in person until, like, nine months after I started working there.
- [35:57]
B
That was a really weird period of time.
- [35:59]
A
So weird.
- [36:00]
B
And I read that you decided to leave because you were like, take me. There was a moment where you're like, please, take me instead of the staff.
- [36:08]
A
I had a conversation with our CEO, Jonah Peretti, about the organization and some of the steep cuts to the staff, and I just couldn't do that to my staff. You know, the journalists there are really diligent and really do believe in the work. And to me, that was more important that they continue to do it than for me to continue to be there.
- [36:30]
B
You often talk about how media used to be just for the kids from the Ivy League.
- [36:34]
A
Yeah.
- [36:34]
B
Is that true?
- [36:36]
A
I still feel that way.
- [36:38]
B
You do?
- [36:40]
A
I mean, yes. Because, like, even though it's easier to make a name for yourself from outside of the system, there's still a system. Everyone's just hiring people that they already know. And if you don't know a lot of people. And you're not in those networks if you're not in those rooms, if you're not a member of the Yale Club. Yeah, it might be a little tough sometimes.
- [36:58]
B
How did you break in? Right. Because you weren't from the inside.
- [37:01]
A
No, I'm really persistent, and I don't take a lot of things personally. So I just basically just kept knocking on that door until someone let me in. And when they let me in, I'm very. I like. I think I'm a fun person. I'm charming and personable. People seem to like me.
- [37:18]
B
Was it hard once the door opened?
- [37:20]
A
I was authentic. And I'm not ashamed. Cause I feel like that's where people get messed up. And I always thought that was stupid. Like, if you truly have the talent and the skill, like, they'll get over it.
- [37:34]
B
So you leave HuffPo. This is where you are now. You're writing what I love. This is a funny memoir about being a journalist with bipolar disorder. That's a very interesting project. You went back to blogging. I mean, I wondered as I read about your story, in some ways blogging brought you back to life.
- [37:53]
A
Yes, blogging did save my life in many ways. Like, it saved my career. You know, that was the beauty of that democratizing nature of the Internet, in that I could write a website and show people that I knew what people liked to read and communicate openly with people, and that could create a community, that could create an audience. And that led to almost every job I've had ever since.
- [38:15]
B
So now you're going back. You've gone back to blogging.
- [38:18]
A
Yeah.
- [38:18]
B
With your antisocial blog.
- [38:19]
A
Yes.
- [38:21]
B
You're a prolific writer, I have to say, because I see all the content that you produce. It's interesting. I really think of you not as a journalist, but I think of you as an artist.
- [38:29]
A
Oh, thank you.
- [38:30]
B
Because I think that artists have this need to use their voice, which is what you're describing. Have you ever considered that for yourself?
- [38:38]
A
Oh, I consider myself to be an artist.
- [38:40]
B
As you look forward. Right. Memoir. You're doing a dinner series, which really is about belonging, which I think is also super interesting. What would you tell your younger self?
- [38:49]
A
I would probably just give myself a hug because that's what I needed, and just told her that everything's going to be fine.
- [38:58]
B
Hugging some time.
- [38:59]
A
Yeah. Like, it sucks right now, but it doesn't have to. Always. Failure is part of success. Like, especially if you're. If you're starting, you know, at the beginning, as opposed to like, you know, the joke is some people are born on third base and they think they hit a triple. And then some people, in my case aren't even born in the stadium. Like, I'm somewhere down the street. And so it's like, yeah, you make it work and it's fine. It's okay. You know, failure is just part of that climb. It's just like how you. You learn that you're alive and that you're a human. You get to learn from that mistake and apply that learnings to super success.
- [39:37]
B
We live in a pretty messy time.
- [39:39]
A
Yes.
- [39:40]
B
What advice would you have for somebody who's either starting out or pivoting or sort of going through this messy moment of not being sure how to even get in or how to survive?
- [39:50]
A
Oh, I would say one, stop being so hard on yourself. I think it's so often we compare ourselves to other people and their successes and we see like, oh, this person has this or that, and why don't I? And I'm really struggling. And they're not like, their race is their race to run. You're running your own race. And in your race, your biggest competition is yourself, because that's who you're ultimately competing with. You're trying to be the best version of yourself, so you can't really worry with what other people are doing every week.
- [40:22]
B
Our goal is really to give advice to somebody who's going through a messy period or a messy moment. Right. That's why we're doing the messy parts. If you were gonna give some advice to somebody who's dealing with a setback, what's the thing you would tell them?
- [40:36]
A
So you've had this setback and it feels awful. So what? Like, allow that feeling to happen? Feel awful, but don't live there. That's not your home. Your home is where you're aspiring to be. Your home is within your heart. Your home is who you are. It's not in what you do. It's not in your job title. Remember who you are and always live and work from that heart space, not from the space of the job title. Focus on your community, focus on your family, focus on your friends. Build relationships. Those are the things that actually have meaning and bring happiness in life.
- [41:16]
B
I read that you were willing to gamble on yourself. How do other people learn from you to gamble on themselves?
- [41:24]
A
Well, the first thing, in my case I had to make a pact with myself is that I don't let myself down. Other people can let me down, situations can let me down, society can let me down. I can't let me down. That means I have to hit the deadline. I have to get up in the morning. I have to make the interview. I have to perform. I have to make it work because I don't let myself down.
- [41:45]
B
I'm gonna try and ask you some rapid fire questions.
- [41:48]
A
All right?
- [41:48]
B
Karaoke song or walk on music?
- [41:52]
A
Oh, Baby, I'm a Star by Prince.
- [41:53]
B
What food would you bring to a potluck?
- [41:57]
A
Banana pudding.
- [41:58]
B
What alternative career would you have picked?
- [42:00]
A
Artist?
- [42:02]
B
What are you reading, James? What would somebody be surprised to learn about you?
- [42:07]
A
Oh, I'm terrified of driving. I have driving anxiety.
- [42:13]
B
I have to say, this was as amazing as I thought it was gonna be. I can't tell you how excited I am about your new chapter.
- [42:20]
A
Oh, thank you.
- [42:20]
B
And you definitely have a gift of words, so can't wait for your book. We're all ready for it. And please, everybody, go and subscribe to the antisocial blog.
- [42:29]
A
Thank you.
- [42:31]
B
Thanks for watching the episode. Tell your friends. Download, subscribe, and don't forget to also drop us a review.