← The Messy Parts
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- [00:00]
A
Your story actually has a lesson that's not just about people and their, you know, marriages. It's a much broader story, which is sometimes the earth moves beneath your feet in a way that you just are not gonna see. And when it does, what is the lesson you think you can take from that?
- [00:16]
B
The lesson in it is that it really is an opportunity. And it really was for me. And I would not have seen that at the beginning. I think the way you pick yourself up is very slowly, one step at a time. But there was no, like, magic pill. It was just really one foot in front of the other, often literally. And just having faith that on the other side, the life is not going to look like the life that you thought you wanted or that you had or that you expected. But the new life can be a lot more interesting.
- [00:56]
A
This conversation actually is about breaking the generational curse of staying quiet about the messy parts. Because guess what? The messy parts is where the growth is. And when you say them out loud, as many people do, on the blue couch, really amazing things happen, including having a New York Times bestseller, which is what has happened to Bell Burden. Well, Belle, I am so excited to have you on the blue couch. Thank you so much for coming.
- [01:23]
B
I'm thrilled to be here. This is very exciting for me. I love this podcast.
- [01:26]
A
Well, I love the fact that you actually shared your messy parts.
- [01:30]
B
I sure did, in a really quick way. Yes, I did. I bared my soul. My messiest soul, for sure.
- [01:36]
A
And you said to me just two seconds ago that you were surprised by the reaction.
- [01:40]
B
Really, really surprised by the reaction. I did not get any of those book clubs that really can catapult you, like Oprah or Jenna or Reese. And the print run was really small. Amazon did have. I don't know exactly, but definitely under 7,000.
- [01:56]
A
And look at you now.
- [01:57]
B
And then we've now in the ninth printing, so it's really a surprise. I thought it would be very quiet, like people maybe would give it to their friend if they were getting divorced, but that was about it.
- [02:07]
A
Did you think that people would pass it only because of divorce? Like, oh, I can relate to this.
- [02:12]
B
I did think that that would be kind of the audience, particularly people who had gone through the same thing as I did. But I think people are finding themselves in it in lots of different ways. Not just divorce. I'm hearing from adults who were children in this kind of situation. I'm hearing from people who identify just with the description of pain that's in it. So a lot of different people. And then people in happy marriages, and I think they are.
- [02:39]
A
Why do they want it?
- [02:40]
B
It sparks conversation. I think there some people maybe want reassurance that that won't happen to them, But I think it brings up issues around career, around mothering, around marriage, around middle age that maybe is interesting no matter what kind of marriage you're in.
- [02:59]
A
First of all, I should tell you that when I started doing the research and I actually, I listened to the book, and then I started watching, you know, you on Oprah and then the Town and Country article. You're. You've been everywhere. It was hard not to become obsessed. So that is a full confession. And I was at a dinner, and I ran into a friend, and I had forgotten that her husband had left her. In Covid. In a similar story, have you found people with, like, very similar stories?
- [03:23]
B
Yes. I'm hearing from people with almost exactly the same story, often during COVID same abruptness, with no warning, no explanation. And that really surprises me because when it was happening, I thought, I am the only person on the planet that this has happened to because it's so bizarre and so strange, and I think people just don't talk about it. And that's why it seems like it's very rare. But it's not.
- [03:46]
A
You literally shared your messiest part. I mean, do you think you have a messier part than that?
- [03:51]
B
Probably if you saw me at home and in my sweatpants and, you know, like, at my darkest, you know, loneliest moments, you might think that was messier. But I think I shared the messiest part of my life. These decisions I made. And. And my husband rejecting me in this way, that feels definitely like my most messy, tenderest part.
- [04:12]
A
Well, you made a lot of people not feel alone. I will definitely give you that. And you gave a lot of people a cautionary tale at the same time.
- [04:18]
B
I think I did. And it's hard to be a cautionary tale. You know, it really is.
- [04:22]
A
It's not what you wish upon.
- [04:24]
B
No, it's not. And. But I'm okay with that, particularly around the finance story. If it kind of wakes women up about having more agency in their financial life and having more visibility and transparency, that will. Then I'll feel like this all had a great purpose.
- [04:39]
A
Well, I, you know, I often think now that the messy parts is where we actually get the growth. It's actually where you learn things. And in some ways, it's the thing that gave you voice.
- [04:49]
B
It is. And. And for me, I think in. In these sort of structures of my life falling apart, the Future that I imagined that I thought was coming, not being there anymore and hitting just this real emotional rock bottom. It was there that I was able to kind of find the core of myself. And for me, that was returning to writing for the first time in 30 years other than legal writing.
- [05:16]
A
Did you write it when you were younger?
- [05:17]
B
I had. I wrote all through grade school, and particularly in high school, and arrived at college like, I'm gonna be a writer. And got into this selective writing class at Harvard and I was one of only two freshmen. Harvard's a place with a lot of ego and a lot of. And a senior told me not just that he didn't like the story or constructive criticism. He said that I couldn't write, that I had no talent. And he probably forgot about the comment five minutes later. But I changed the entire trajectory of my life. I believed him.
- [05:49]
A
Isn't that amazing? Right before you, we had somebody who'd gone to Yale, but she had a similar feeling where she felt like all of a sudden she wasn't good enough.
- [05:58]
B
And I think really the problem is not that the person said it, but that we believe it. Like, what part of us is so vulnerable to that kind of comment that it stayed, it stayed with me for 30 years. I believed it for 30 years.
- [06:11]
A
It was amazing because I think what became clear in the. Our conversation on the couch was this voice that she had on her shoulder. Right. It was already there. And I think somebody said it out loud and that's all she needed.
- [06:23]
B
That's probably true for me too. That self doubt, that imposter syndrome was always there. And then that tipped it over.
- [06:29]
A
I mean, I, you know, 50 some episodes in. I, I definitely begin to think that our childhood really forms us in lots of ways. And so I like to start with you, you know, as a young child, like you grew up in a very privileged, you know, I, I would almost say like aristocracy of America. Like really, like, right. Your grandmother, big names. And for you, what seems probably very normal was probably, probably very different from other people's experience. So will you just like paint a picture of your sort of early childhood?
- [07:00]
B
I think as a child, you're not conscious of that stuff. My grandmother, who's known to other people, Babe Paley. Babe Paley was just baa, baa. To me. She was nothing. I didn't know that she had any stature. I was also very nerdy. I went to an all girls school here in New York. And I was not cool, by the way.
- [07:19]
A
I did not either.
- [07:19]
B
Okay, good. Best people are. I didn't know how to dress. Um, even though.
- [07:24]
A
I'm sorry, your grandmother was Babe Paley.
- [07:26]
B
She did not inherit. I did not inherit that gene. I really did not happen for me. But I. I was also really quiet, really shy. Didn't speak till I was three years old. So I. And I never felt like I fully fit in at this school. I was nerdy and I loved to read. I felt lonely in childhood. I lived in this house where I was with a nanny. My mom worked a lot, which was a wonderful thing. I only saw my father and stepmother every other weekend. I had one brother, but he was always like in his room playing video games. So looking back, I see the privilege. Of course, I see the things that I was able to do, the schools I was able to go to. But as I was living it, I think I was more defined by being a quiet person, not quite fitting in.
- [08:15]
A
It's so interesting because you would think. I mean, I would think.
- [08:18]
B
Right.
- [08:18]
A
I'm a kid who grew up in revolution. We moved here in the middle of the hostage crisis. And I think a lot about this idea of belonging. Right. Which is not about, like being at the party or the life of the party, but just feeling a sense of belonging.
- [08:31]
B
Yes, absolutely.
- [08:32]
A
And so you would think. Which obviously. Right. We never know what somebody else's life is like. You would think that you would have had this incredible sense of belonging. And yet, you know, it's just such an individual experience for all of us.
- [08:44]
B
It really is. And I didn't have that feeling of belonging until I went to boarding school, actually, which was a place. Place that was. It was like nerd heaven.
- [08:51]
A
You grew up with a mom who was a big figure as well. Yes. Right. A big job. But also I really thought about this. So I'll tell you my story a little bit.
- [08:59]
B
Sure.
- [09:00]
A
Which is that I had a very charismatic father. People just would follow him around. He was very good looking, but also a cheater. I mean, I didn't know that as a young kid, but by the time I got to high school, my mom really talked about his cheating. Not to us, but they would get in arguments and so we would hear them. Yep. So we would hear it. Things that I would say, you know, whether it's right or wrong, you'd be like, you'd protect your child from that. Like that was just all out. I mean, she was losing her mind about it and we were just, you know.
- [09:26]
B
Yeah, of course.
- [09:26]
A
Hearing it. And I remember when him and my mom were having these fights on the phone. He came home for one weekend. And I said to him, if you're cheating on mom, I'm not going to love you the same way. And he said, is your love conditional? Which was like ultimately so manipulative. Now when I go back and look at that.
- [09:46]
B
Right. I mean, that is really quite a question.
- [09:49]
A
So when I showed up in college, I so distinctly remember there was six of us and most of us had gone through some experience that was very similar. And there was this real sense that that wasn't gonna happen to us. So as I was reading your book, I was really just struck by. I mean, you had a mom who definitely, you know, had more than one husband.
- [10:08]
B
Yes.
- [10:08]
A
Had very big personalities in her life. Right. From Steve Ross to Charlie Rose. I mean, like big names. Big.
- [10:15]
B
Definitely. Yeah.
- [10:16]
A
And I read. Either I read it or I listened to you on an interview where you said you picked somebody who wasn't that.
- [10:22]
B
I thought I was stopping this pattern. I was picking someone who was like so mild mannered. He was a lawyer, he went to work every day. He was not a public presence. He was not flirtatious. He was the opposite of those men that my mother had been a conscious thought for you. It was a conscious thought. I mean, I fell just madly in love with him, but I think I was conscious of, I'm gonna be with this man forever. And this is not gonna be a life where someone is a serial philanderer, which is what my mother dealt with for decades.
- [10:56]
A
And your grandmother.
- [10:56]
B
And my grandmother. So there was some satisfaction in that. And then, you know, Flash 2. I have repeated it, but in a much more spectacular fashion because my now ex husband did not want to come back. My mother's husband and beau of many years always wanted to come back. Were always apologetic. But mine. Is that better? I don't know. I don't actually know. I don't think it's better.
- [11:22]
A
I think so. I'm going to say it may have been a hard lesson, but maybe you were better off.
- [11:26]
B
I think so too. It was. It was definite. It was clear. There was no. He. He wasn't coming back. And that was clear from the beginning.
- [11:33]
A
I also remember my mom being very conscious and saying, saying to me, you know, parents just say things like. And then they lodge in your brain. But this idea of marrying somebody who was wanting. And as I read about your husband, who obviously came from a pedigreed background, but seemed like he didn't have the financial means, like, as I read about the prenup, to me that was like, oh, he really had this planned out. He thought about it. And my mom used to be like, you can't marry somebody like that because they're working things out.
- [12:03]
B
The wanting for him came from childhood trauma, around money. And he entered our relationship. Not even the marriage, but our relationship, being financially self protective, like, to the death, like he was.
- [12:17]
A
I mean, at a level that was unusual.
- [12:21]
B
Unusual. And I'm not even sure he's fully aware of it, but I can see
- [12:27]
A
it made me think, like, almost psychotic. I'm going to say that to you because it's not.
- [12:31]
B
I'm not allowed to give any diagnosis.
- [12:33]
A
You can't. But it really did strike me, because I was like, this was planned. This was deliberate.
- [12:37]
B
I think the financial piece. He was deliberate every step of the way.
- [12:41]
A
Clearly, because two weeks before your wedding, he convinces you, despite all of the advice of your family and lawyers, to change the prenup.
- [12:50]
B
He asked me to change the prenup and presented it in a very logical way. And I thought it sounded reasonable. But I did not tell my mother, my stepmother, my brother about it because I knew that it was not gonna be good for me unless I could fully trust him. I'm not entirely sure it was a strategic plan. I always say, like, people love to call me an heiress. You know, I'm privileged, but I'm not an heiress. He could have aimed much, much higher than me, but I think he protected himself with every decision at every point in the marriage.
- [13:24]
A
If you can remember back to that moment where he has that conversation with you. Yep. Do you have a different experience of that? Because, like, what made you agree?
- [13:34]
B
I think there was just so much trust. I was in love. My wedding was in just a few weeks. But by the way, the time is terrible time. It's not terrible time to talk about a prenup, but I think I was raised to. Even though there was divorce, I had models of. Of good marriages that you were meant to just trust and share in everything.
- [13:55]
A
Be in it together.
- [13:56]
B
Be in it together. So when we changed this to say anything earned during the marriage wouldn't be shared except if we put it in joint name, I expected that we would both put things in joint name, just make it on a case by case basis.
- [14:09]
A
And you weren't checking along the way that that was the case.
- [14:12]
B
I was not checking. I did it myself with my assets. I was sort of trusting this narrative that was not a lie, but that he was, you know, still just trying to get to this finish line of being a partner and that he wasn't making a Lot of money along the way. But he was. In retrospect, it really was that my money was our money, but his money was his money, was his money. Yep. And that's maybe how he viewed inherited money, you know, which is not earned in the same way. So there is some logic behind that. Know, there is some, maybe some equity behind that.
- [14:45]
A
I like how forgiving your sounding.
- [14:47]
B
I know I'm trying to be reasonable. It is so easy to villainize and just keep, like, piling on. So I try and, you know, I try to be fair, but at the
- [14:55]
A
end, it's really more just about what you learn about yourself in the process. Right. I mean, yes, he did something that we can. Well, I'll say maybe it was not so great.
- [15:05]
B
Yes.
- [15:06]
A
But really, in the end, the messy parts are the place where you get growth and where you actually take lessons away and discover who you are. So in some ways, I mean, you had to go through that to, I don't know, be the Phoenix rising.
- [15:18]
B
It's really true. And I think that you can see it in the book because I really was just looking at him, trying to find answers, explanation, looking at him as the actor of all of this. And I don't get it. Like, I don't get any understanding of what happened from him. It was like trying to get blood from a stone. And I really was forced to take the spotlight from him using my stepmother's spotlight trick and move it to me in order to move forward. And that involved really looking at decisions that I made during those 20 years. It involved taking control of my financial life. The writing came into it too. And then. And then that really unlocked me stopping looking at him and really focusing on me and on the growth and on the messy parts, as you say.
- [16:08]
A
So I think there's a lesson in that for people who aren't going through a situation like yours. Right. And I was struck as you were talking that people who get fired from jobs where they don't get fired for cause.
- [16:19]
B
Right.
- [16:19]
A
It's not like embezzlement. It's like all of a sudden somebody decides something arbitrary have a similar grief process of a sense of, like, wanting. I mean, in fact, Brooke Baldwin was on and she said she still doesn't know why she was fired. Right. Like wanting that resolution. But I don't know that there is ever a resolution that would be satisfactory.
- [16:39]
B
There is a parallel there about getting fired from a job. I totally agree. Because you. You just. You want. Not just the explanation, but you want to have the time that you spent there Be honored by that person. Yeah.
- [16:49]
A
And you just. How they handle.
- [16:51]
B
Get it. You know, you don't get either of those things. And so you have to, like, shift your focus away from that. It really stays with you. And if you stay in the wound, it's. It's really hard to have a great life. I think you could argue that. I wrote a book, so I'm, like, living in the wound for all this extended period of time. But I think that, like, I don't spend a huge amount of time. I spend time talking about it now, but I don't spend a huge amount of time dwelling in what he did to me or what he didn't give me. It just was a road to misery to, like, stay in that space. Yeah.
- [17:28]
A
Your story actually has a lesson that's not just about people and their, you know, marriages. It's a much broader story, which is sometimes the earth moves beneath your feet in a way that you just are not gonna see. And when it does, what is the lesson you think you can take from that? Like, how do you pick yourself back up?
- [17:46]
B
I think that the lesson in it is that it really is an opportunity, and it really was for me. And I would not have seen that at the beginning. I think the way you pick yourself up is very slowly, one step at a time, thinking about those years ahead of you and what you want them to look like. But there was no, like, magic pill. It was just really one foot in front of the other, often literally, and just having faith that on the other side, the life is not going to look like the life that you thought you wanted or that you had or that you expected. But the new life can be a lot more interesting.
- [18:26]
A
So you went to law school. You actually worked at a law firm. That's how you met your husband, your ex husband. Your mom was a working woman.
- [18:32]
B
Yes.
- [18:33]
A
Your grandmother was not. I think a lot about sort of, like, the impact that watching our parents or, you know, the environment that we were in had. Did watching your mom have this big career make you want one of those? I mean, what made you decide to then pull back?
- [18:49]
B
It's a really good question. I was raised with two women as mothers who both had significant careers. Yes, stepmom and my mom. Work was very important to their identities.
- [19:03]
A
Your stepmom's a therapist.
- [19:04]
B
She's a therapist, Family therapist. And my father was the biggest believer in my capabilities and in getting the best education I possibly could. But at the same time, we talked about my loneliness in childhood. So I really. I think I was More reacting against that. Against that feeling of not belonging. Of not. Of not belonging, but just of the quiet. I envied so much the other girls who were picked up by their moms who had, you know, the picket fence. I mean, not New York, but the baking cookies when you get home from school, all of that. I really envied that. So I really wanted to be that mom. At pickup, I said, because what was
- [19:47]
A
it like for you? You came home.
- [19:49]
B
I came home. Either. Younger years, I was picked up by nanny. But I. You know, none of this is a sob story at all. But I took. Starting in second grade, I took the 86th Street Crosstown from Madison to East End, and I came home, and I was alone. And I think sometimes my book is misconstrued to say to be like, again, stay at home, motherhood, which I'm actually not. I kept my law license. I did pro bono domestic violence cases. I was. Did a lot of nonprofit work. My husband's work became. My ex husband's work became so important. It was like the family enterprise. It came before everything. It was the most important thing.
- [20:31]
A
He.
- [20:31]
B
He skipped a lot of kid and family stuff because of it. And I think when there's such a dominant focus on one person's work, it is very easy to lose the thread of, like, what your passions are, what your talents are, when you're gonna go back to work, when you're gonna ramp up, when the focus is gonna come back to you. I think that was the problem. I don't think it. It was deciding to step away from my corporate law career. Cause I hated corporate law. I hated the firm. Like, I really did. But I think in a different marriage where there was more balance, I think I would have gone back to work sooner or I would have.
- [21:13]
A
Or started writing.
- [21:14]
B
I started writing. I. I think there just would have been more room for it. And I think we got really out of whack.
- [21:20]
A
Did you consider yourself in that? I mean, because obviously his career really mattered to him, sort of to the point that we made earlier. He. He was trying to make his mark. Right. Did you consider yourself like a professional wife?
- [21:31]
B
I did not consider myself a professional wife because we didn't have that dynamic where I would go to, like, dinners with him and, like, entertain clients and all of that. But I felt like I was a critical part of making his dreams come true. I feel like I was like. I feel like he wanted this. It was so important to him. It was curing a childhood wound, and I felt happiness in that. And. And like, this. This key component to supporting and him and helping him, and I think I lost myself in that.
- [22:11]
A
Well, it also felt like you had a lot of happiness in your children.
- [22:13]
B
Quite honestly, I did. I did have a lot of happiness in my children, and I had. You know, I don't think it's always fun or easy or any of those things, but I did really enjoy being with my kids and. And coming from divorce, I consider myself coming from two divorces because I love my stepfather and so, so much, and I felt like we had formed a family again, and then it broke up. So I. The intact family, the mother and father and kids, and that. That unit that was so important to me, that gave me great happiness that we had that.
- [22:44]
A
And so that's the thing that you were focused on. I mean, that actually makes complete sense.
- [22:47]
B
Yes, I was very focused on that, on the family unit.
- [22:50]
A
And honestly, I would say you're still focused on that.
- [22:52]
B
I am. I am. I'm. My kids are an organizing principal in my life. Even as they get older, you know, they don't always want to, like, hang out with me or talk to me or anything, but I'm there. And I think that helped while their dad was less present.
- [23:08]
A
I agree. You rooted them. It's almost like the earth underneath their feet.
- [23:12]
B
Yes.
- [23:12]
A
Which brings an incredible sense of belonging.
- [23:14]
B
Yes, it does. It really does. And it really oriented me, I'm going
- [23:19]
A
to say to you. And it's really oriented your children.
- [23:21]
B
I think so.
- [23:21]
A
Yeah.
- [23:22]
B
I think so. That's my hardships. Yeah. Even as life changed so much for them.
- [23:27]
A
So now when you look back, I'm sure everybody's told you this. The scene that really strikes me is when he comes back to the Vineyard to tell the children himself, which I'm sure you had mixed feelings about. In fact, I read that you had mixed feelings about. But that moment where he says he wants a sandwich and you go make that, it's like you were a fixer.
- [23:46]
B
And that is a good way to put it. It was a fixing moment for me. The sandwich. I think the sandwich gets misinterpreted by people. It's. It's definitely been like a lightning rod as this sort of binary choice. Like, if you make the sandwich, you're compliant and deferential, and if you don't make the sandwich, you're strong and feminist and standing up to him. For me, in that moment, the sandwich was not. Did not have much to do with him. It really had to do with my older daughter sitting there watching us, not wanting to Have a conflict or harsh moment in front of her. My younger daughter is downstairs sobbing hysterically. I want him to be with his daughters in that moment. You're just trying to hold it all together, Trying to hold it all together in a horrible moment. Like a horrible moment for my kids that they'll remember forever. Horrible moment for all of us. It turned out he ended up going to the basement. Oh, he did. He came because I'm wandering around with the sandwich. Find him in the basement looking for the prenup.
- [24:51]
A
Did you know he was looking for the prenup?
- [24:53]
B
I didn't know. I thought he was with the girls. And he was with the girls briefly, but then he went downstairs, and I. So I couldn't find him. He's in the basement and he's. And he's down there looking for the prenup. And of course I know he's not gonna find it. Cause I've already looked. He has to leave. So he eats the sandwich standing by the front door. He just eats it.
- [25:12]
A
Like, he puts it in a bag and he takes it with him.
- [25:14]
B
And I, of course, tried to make a great sandwich because I wanted him. I didn't want him to stay. I did not. Like, I didn't want this.
- [25:20]
A
You were mixed about him even coming?
- [25:22]
B
I. I was mixed about it because he's in New York having an affair. But I wanted him to leave feeling like this is our home, this is family. This is like the sandwich kind of like represented this nurturing, this warmth of home that we had created together. But he just ate it like it was just a sandwich. Like it didn't mean that to him at all.
- [25:43]
A
I find that sometimes in moments of crisis, I'm just like a robot, just moving through the motions.
- [25:48]
B
Yes. Do what needs to be done. And then I'm not thinking.
- [25:51]
A
Thinking like, oh, I should have a feminist moment now. I'm just like.
- [25:53]
B
Exactly.
- [25:54]
A
It's like I'm just trying to live through the moment, get through it.
- [25:56]
B
Exactly. And of course, if I could redo it, maybe I would do something different. But at that moment, it was just like, let's get this done.
- [26:02]
A
For people who have maybe not read the book, but will. Now, do you want to describe what had happened right at this point, going
- [26:10]
B
back to the beginning of the book? It's March of 2020, the second week of COVID lockdown. My husband and my two daughters, we moved to our house in Martha's Vineyard, which was isolated and quiet and safe. And we had sort of a cozy time for a week or so my husband was chopping wood and building fires. We were cooking, taking walks. And one night after dinner, I was mopping the floor, and I get a call that I don't recognize the number. I let it go to voicemail, and it's a man saying, I'm sorry to tell you this, but your husband is having an affair with my wife. And I believed I was very happily married. We did not have a lot of discord. So it was a deep shock. By the next morning, my husband had packed a bag, said that he thought he wanted our life, but he didn't. He thought he was happy, but he wasn't. And he said he wanted a divorce. And he left. The sandwich scene happens about a month later. We have not told the children during that month because the therapist told me to wait until the pandemic became less scary, which, of course, it didn't. He flew up to. So that we could tell them together. We told my son. Son on the phone because he was staying with friends. Actually, you had the. The mother who took care of him, Joanna Coles was his quarantine mom.
- [27:31]
A
That's amazing.
- [27:32]
B
Isn't that amazing? And so we flew up and we told them. He told them in our living room and then turned to me and said, I'm starving. Can you make me a sandwich? And I did.
- [27:45]
A
Which is definitely a conversation that people have about the book.
- [27:48]
B
They do, and they're pretty harsh about it. I've heard some. Yes. There's especially younger people, like millennials. And I kind of want to say, like, be married for 20 years and have some kids and then come back and tell me.
- [27:59]
A
Well, it's interesting because I remember saying to my mom, when he was having these affairs, why didn't you leave him? Right. And she was like, well, the kids. And I was like, why didn't you leave? Why didn't you leave?
- [28:10]
B
It can seem so clear in black and white, but when you're in it and you have kids and you're trying to keep everything okay, it's more complicated.
- [28:18]
A
Well, every. I mean, I think everything in life is pretty complicated.
- [28:21]
B
Yes, I agree, pretty much.
- [28:23]
A
You've now been on book tour for a while. Your book has become a huge hit. I've noticed that in some instances, you've actually had your mom join you for a conversation.
- [28:32]
B
Yes.
- [28:33]
A
And you come from a family where, historically, they didn't talk about things.
- [28:37]
B
They really didn't. My grandmother and my mother were taught by example and taught me by example that you do not talk about these things. You really clean it up. You do you protect the man. That is the priority.
- [28:51]
A
Why did they think that?
- [28:53]
B
I think it's. I think it's a cultural expectation that was all around them that came, you know, from their mothers and grandmothers. And I think it's just the way things were done. You just don't talk about messy things. You just do not talk about unflattering things. You do not. And if you don't talk about it, people won't know, and people won't judge you for it. But of course, people did know in both cases that that was it.
- [29:16]
A
People always know.
- [29:17]
B
People always know. But as children, it's very confusing to have, like, kind of these whispers of it but not really know what happened. And I think that's confusing for the
- [29:27]
A
person also, pretending, holding onto that armor has a cost.
- [29:32]
B
It has a cost. It's depleting.
- [29:34]
A
I'm going to compare it back to being in a job where, you know, again, let's go to Brooke Baldwin. I mean, the thing I remember is that she was given this news and then she had to go back on air for a few months pretending like it hadn't happened.
- [29:46]
B
It's awful. Like that put a smile on you. Yes. Terrible. And then just like carrying on like nothing happened is really corrosive, I think. And I'm still sort of surprised I did not do the same thing because I was raised that way. It's in my bones. Yeah.
- [30:03]
A
He said to you, let's say it was amicable. I mean, forget all the messages. He actually wanted to manage the narrative.
- [30:08]
B
He did. He wanted to manage the narrative. He said to me, I think we should tell people this. I had heard that he was telling people this, that it was amicable. You would expect me to agree with that, not only in a, you know, deferential way, but because it's more flattering. It's not flattering to say your husband left you. It's, It's.
- [30:26]
A
No, I love that scene in the book. You're at a party with people. You're just saying it like it is. And you're like. And people are running away.
- [30:32]
B
They are. They're like, moving away from me. It is, it's like, it continues still surprising to me. And it was from that first moment where he said, let's say this. And I was like, I, I, I will not survive this if I lie about it.
- [30:43]
A
What broken you where you actually had that thought because you were trained to be that person.
- [30:48]
B
I was trained to be that person. And I remember standing. I remember where I was standing in the vineyard as he's telling me this, that I think we should tell people that it's amicable. I remember it so vividly, and I just. My whole body said, no, no, I will not do that. I will not. I mean, maybe I had a sense that. That it would serve him more than it would serve me, you know, to say that. This. Yeah. But I just felt like I can't get through this. And that carried through because pretty soon after, I would run into people who'd come back from the vineyard, and. Exactly. They would say, how are you? What's going on? And I. My husband left me. He left me, and I don't know why. And I'm inside so much pain. And I would cry. And I was in public. In public at the vineyard. I'm doing the whole thing, and everyone's whispering about it anyway. But, like, I just was really upfront about it. But I think that is the thread that carried through, that led to me writing again. You know, it was like that. You lived with it. I lived with it.
- [31:50]
A
Pushed past it. I mean, I'll give you a bad, terrible analogy. I think I mentioned to you when I was in college, my father drowned. You know, windsurfing, obviously.
- [31:58]
B
Out of.
- [31:58]
A
Out of the blue. Yeah. And no, we're gonna make light of it, because.
- [32:01]
B
Okay. All right, okay, okay. That's what we do. And then we go, okay.
- [32:04]
A
So I remember, like, two weeks later, coming back to college, starting junior year, and he was like, like I said, charismatic. The life of the party. He'd come to New York. He'd take us to the Palladium. I don't know what my dad was thinking, but that's what was going on. And so they were like, how's your dad? And I was like, oh, he's drowned. And so my friend pulled me aside after the second or third time. She said, you're not supposed to say that. And I said, what do you mean? She's like, no, you're supposed to say he passed away. So the next time somebody comes up, I say, oh, he passed away. And they say, well, what happened? I say, he drowned. Is he okay? I was like, what is happening here?
- [32:36]
B
Is he okay?
- [32:38]
A
Said, yes. He's the Messiah. He walks on water.
- [32:40]
B
Okay.
- [32:41]
A
And I would just push right on, because, yes, get to the other side. In my home, we also, you know, in Iranian homes, it's also, like, just about the appearances. Like, don't air your dirty laundry. Don't talk. I'd be like, what's happening? Why Are we doing that? Nobody cares.
- [32:53]
B
Yeah.
- [32:54]
A
So we sort of learn these things. Right. But for me, I just kept pushing past it.
- [32:58]
B
Right.
- [32:58]
A
But you lived it. It actually unlocked you.
- [33:01]
B
I really lived it. And I think part of that was Covid allowed that. Right. Because I didn't have to, like, just steamroll through life and go to school, pickup and go to meetings and all of that. I had this time and space on an island that was very spot, sparsely populated almost.
- [33:15]
A
It was. It was like the environment was forced on you.
- [33:18]
B
I would say it was. It was forced on me. So I would take these long, long walks, and I would just weep as I walked. And I would just, like. I felt every inch of it the whole time. And I think that served me because it's like I metabolized it. You process the grief? Yeah, I pro. I really felt the grief. Really process it. When my father died when I was 25, I really didn't. I think I just was like, I gotta get back to law school. And I gotta, like, yeah, I gotta, like, get back into life. And I think that really did serve me well that I. That I went through it. But I was. You know, people did move away from me. I was a lot. It was definitely like, you were a lot. A shock to people.
- [33:55]
A
What did being a lot teach you?
- [33:57]
B
It taught me about human behavior. Like, those people who move towards me is like, what I want to be now. Like, I just. It is such generosity of spirit to move towards someone who's like, in clearly so much pain and to actually, like, acknowledge it and want to help that person is such a beautiful thing. And I saw that over and over again. I also had a few negative experiences of judgment and sexism and. And things. And that. That taught me a lot too. You know, I think divorcing women encounter this a lot. And a lot of people don't. You know, it's not talked about.
- [34:30]
A
What is it that they encounter?
- [34:32]
B
An alienation, you feel you go from being a part of something overnight to not being a part of something and people not really knowing what to do with you. There's. There was a comment, you know, in this very, you know, this club that it wasn't clear who should remain a member. Me or my husband who's in New York having an affair. I'm with the children in a house that I bought, but it's not clear. And I knew when I heard that that if the situation were reversed, you would never have heard from the woman again. Like, she would have been. Well, we see this in movies all the time. Exactly, exactly. You know, he walks out. But all of a sudden, I'm sort of the hysteric. I'm the, you know, sort of, like, dangerous person, whereas he's, like, calm and collected. And I think this happens a lot to women when they're either left or they're in a difficult divorce. I wanted to shine a light on that in a. In a narrative way where it would be kind of absorbed. As you're following along in this story,
- [35:30]
A
it's interesting because as I hear you talk, you know, most of the people who come on are here to talk about their professional careers and the messy parts that happen in that. But really, it's all one thing. I've always thought it was one thing. And as I hear you describe sort of the hysterical thing, I remember when there would be layoffs and they would actually take people into rooms so that they couldn't be hysterical. To manage the hysteria.
- [35:54]
B
Yes, right.
- [35:54]
A
Because God forbid, the emotion shows up.
- [35:57]
B
And they're very natural emotions. Like these are. You know, it's startling.
- [36:01]
A
Like when you get into a room and you're Fire.
- [36:04]
B
Yes, it's startling.
- [36:05]
A
So, yes.
- [36:06]
B
But also a lot of gaslighting to make you think that you're. There's something wrong to be so upset, to be so shocked, to be so destabilized by something that's really destabilizing.
- [36:16]
A
100. You should be a lot in that moment. Like, if you weren't a lot, then I should be worried about you.
- [36:20]
B
And then the person on the other side of it knew what was coming, knew what they were going to say. So they're very calm. They're very, like, collected, you know, so there's like, this contrast that's, I think, interesting.
- [36:31]
A
It always feels like there was a plan. Right. This is what it comes back to. You're, like. The reason you're so calm and collected is because this was a plan. When I leave jobs and I don't have to be fired, I may be making a decision to leave a job. I write my note about the fact that I'm leaving, like, three weeks before. Because you learn to manage this narrative.
- [36:50]
B
Yes, yes, that's true.
- [36:52]
A
It's like an art form. Like, you learn that, oh, you can actually be strategic about this. Like, and if you have somebody you trust, a sister, a friend, you let them read it. Like, how does this appear? How do I manage? To the outside world?
- [37:03]
B
I'm glad that you were able to do that, because often we're not able to do that. And I think my Book is. Is an effort to do that, to kind of not just manage the narrative, but, like, own the truth. Like, say the truth of something.
- [37:15]
A
You get to tell the truth before somebody else tells it in their version. Because the truth is always somebody's opinion to some degree.
- [37:22]
B
Exactly, exactly. And I think probably both in the job context and in the divorce context, there are a lot of different narratives floating around. They don't feel true to you. People say, I told my truth. I do feel like I told the truth.
- [37:35]
A
You know what? And what difference does it make?
- [37:37]
B
Exactly.
- [37:39]
A
There's so much judgment. Everybody has so much judgment to offer.
- [37:42]
B
Yes.
- [37:43]
A
And so your truth, the truth. You know what? You got to do it.
- [37:46]
B
I got to do it. Which is pretty amazing to be able to do it.
- [37:49]
A
And even if somebody doesn't publish it, if they just write it, I think there's a relief.
- [37:54]
B
I resist those words like catharsis and healing, because I do think it's. They're used more often with women than with men, so I kind of resist it. It's like people trying to inch me towards the self help aisle rather than the literature aisle. I'm like, I want to be in the literature aisle. But I think that you write to figure things out and to put things in a place where they can live in your brain and in your being. And I think that's what happened. For me, having those lost 30 years is hard. Like, it's painful to think, like, I could have spent that time being a writer, being a lawyer, legal training, and working on the immigration cases that I do actually helped me write this book. I think the, like you were writing style of writing that. Yes. And sort of. That a little bit of a more spare style. I can see the connection between the two things, between my legal writing and the writing I did in this book.
- [38:49]
A
But also, if you consider those 30 years lost, you're not actually giving credit to the journey.
- [38:55]
B
Exactly.
- [38:55]
A
You don't exactly skip there.
- [38:57]
B
Exactly. This book wouldn't have happened if I didn't have those years.
- [39:00]
A
Like I said, I. I wanted my children not to have had the pain and suffering I had because I was like, who wants that for somebody else? But honestly, I'm formed by those. Right.
- [39:09]
B
That's how it works. It's all part of the puzzle.
- [39:11]
A
It's all part of the messy journey.
- [39:13]
B
Yep.
- [39:14]
A
So I'm interested now how this has impacted your relationship with your mom. I mean, obviously she's a huge fan and she said your grandmother, Babe Paley, would have loved it. She would have just Been so proud of you. So I sort of love that for. For you and your mom.
- [39:27]
B
So I was really nervous to show her the book. Like, I was just really worried, and for a whole lot of reasons. But part of it was that I was sort of naming this idea of this generational legacy of infidelity, including hers. I printed out. It was after editing, but before copy editing. So I printed it out and put it in a binder, and I gave it to her on Thanksgiving. I thought I wouldn't hear for a while. I was, like, sweating it. And she called me within 24 hours, just weeping and saying how much she loved it. And she kept saying, this is so important. Women need to read this book.
- [40:04]
A
I'm going to say she needed to read the book.
- [40:06]
B
She needed to read the book. And I have felt that the entire time since she read it that she is so fiercely in my corner and so supportive and so cheering me on in a way never could have even imagined. And I feel like I'm doing it for both of us. I really feel like I'm speaking up for her.
- [40:25]
A
The mom who wasn't home to make you cookies has, like, totally shown up in your corner.
- [40:29]
B
She has totally shown up in my corner. And, you know, I'm so proud of her and happy for her that she's had this incredible career. She's. She's. She wouldn't want me to say her age, but she's still traveling the world for the Bloomberg Foundation.
- [40:44]
A
People who don't know what your mom's career was, we should probably tell.
- [40:47]
B
So she was. She's a city planner and was. Mayor Bloomberg made her the head of the City Planning Commission, and she held that job for 12 years. And now she works for Bloomberg Philanthropies, traveling the world, advising cities on city planning. But I think it's still painful for her to talk specifically about her relationships. There was some nervousness before I did Modern Love, but there's never been a moment where she's like, you should mute yourself on this. She's just like, go, go, go.
- [41:16]
A
I have a different question for you about that, because, like I said, I felt the infidelity in my home. I described it to you. Did you feel that as that was happening to your mom?
- [41:25]
B
It was one of those things that was never spoken about. She never told me why she divorced her second husband. She. Even with her boyfriend of 30 years, I was aware of it. There was, like, stuff in the paper, and I. And I felt it, but she never talked to me about it. But I Think it's a mistake not to put words to it and, and be honest about it.
- [41:47]
A
You had to have been nervous. I'm sure they were nervous.
- [41:49]
B
You know, I still am nervous. I'm still like, why could you still be nervous? Now the whole world knows that my, My husband left me. And it feels dangerous to this day to like, speak this truth about a man like this still. It still feels scary. It really feels scary. When I was deciding whether to do Modern Love, there was fear around exactly. That. Like, you're going to be defined by this story. Everyone's going to know this happened to you. And will there be retribution from him? Financial retribution? Like, all that was where the fears were for my mother and my stepmother. That was hard to go against, to kind of confront their fears and then like push past them and confront your own.
- [42:34]
A
I would.
- [42:34]
B
Yes. Yep. Yep. Every day.
- [42:36]
A
Listen, I think anytime any of us actually speak up.
- [42:39]
B
Right.
- [42:40]
A
You speak truth to power of some kind.
- [42:42]
B
Yes.
- [42:42]
A
We all recognize that there's a risk.
- [42:45]
B
Yes. There's.
- [42:46]
A
And, and maybe consequences.
- [42:48]
B
Otherwise it wouldn't be scary.
- [42:49]
A
Otherwise.
- [42:50]
B
Exactly.
- [42:51]
A
But actually facing the scariest thing, which you've now done.
- [42:54]
B
Yes.
- [42:54]
A
Is a release.
- [42:55]
B
It is, it's absolutely release. And it's kind of like, fuck it, I'm just going to. I'm just going to do it and I'm just going to. I feel this sense of we're all kind of like these little things on this planet and just like, just do
- [43:08]
A
it with your kids. What, what, what do you think that they've taken away from this experience? I mean, besides the painful parts that
- [43:15]
B
they're living through, you know, this book is complicated for them. It's. It's a lot to have your mother write this all down and then be, you know, endlessly out talking about it. They have a nice relationship with their dad. They don't see him that much, but it's kind and it's warm. My hope is that long term, what they will see from it is a. That we should talk about these things. I think. And I hope that even just in writing it and talking about it, that that's changed their chemistry. That it's kind of named something that will stop this legacy, that hopefully it'll give us a shot at it not being repeated because it's. They understand it more. The best notes that I've gotten on DMs and other things are from adults who were children in this same experience saying to me that they wish that their parents had explained it to them and they, they would be so happy to have a manuscript explaining it and describing it. One thing is. That was really important to me is that it was resurrecting this love story I had with their father and resurrecting these many happy years we had as a family. Because often when things end horribly like this, all of that gets washed away. So I hope that that is in them. And then I hope that they know that if something like this happens or some other thing, that you don't expect this shock or total upheaval, that you can kind of, like, get up off the floor and brush yourself off and, like, keep moving forward and have a different life, but one that is maybe more true to yourself and more interesting and that there's, like, hope on the other side. So I hope that they've internalized all those things.
- [44:59]
A
Things from this you've done that. You've basically just modeled that for them.
- [45:02]
B
I hope so.
- [45:03]
A
What have you discovered about yourself now?
- [45:06]
B
I think a lot of things. I think there is great pleasure in. In thinking that I can have this life as a writer and that I'm. I'm capable of doing that is one big thing. I think that I've discovered this much more relaxed and easygoing part of myself that I think I didn't have in my marriage. And I think I'm a lot stronger and more resilient than I thought I was. I think I would have thought of myself as much more fragile and that this would have just taken me down. I think I've discovered sort of that inner core that's there that was brave enough to, like, put this book into the world. And I feel good about that.
- [45:51]
A
Thank you so much for coming on.
- [45:53]
B
That was an amazing conversation.
- [45:55]
A
I really think you're an amazing writer. And besides you helping other people, you found your voice, and I think that's such a gift. And what a great example for your family.
- [46:04]
B
It's. It's. It's a wonderful thing. Thank you so much. And I love what you're doing, so please keep doing it. I'm going to watch every single episode.
- [46:11]
A
Now. I know you like that conversation with Bill Burton, because we were all glued as we were making it. Now tell 10 friends, review it, share it, download it, do all the things, because we want to be able to tell more messy stories. Stories right here on this blue couch for you.