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Interviewer
In the moment your husband discovers.
Carrie Doherty
Yes. That I'm having deep. I'm. That I'm having deep feelings for another man.
Interviewer
Yeah. Yes. It's not just theoretical. Like this actually happened.
Carrie Doherty
Exactly. And there were definitely lines that were crossed.
Interviewer
So how did he find out?
Carrie Doherty
My husband knew of the friendship. But in 2020, I joined a writing collective. I was given a prompt. Carrie, write a letter that you'll never send. And I wrote a letter to the character Beau, who's in the book. And I really highlighted my feelings for him. There was a woman in the class who, after I need to tell you, I was very triggered by that piece. So me and this woman go out to dinner and as we're talking about it, my phone buzzes and I look at the text and it's from Alex. And he said, hi. I read your letter to Beau. Today.
Interviewer
On the messy parts. We have on Carrie Doherty. She's one of the founders of Farity, a surf lifestyle, brand new that she started with her husband, his identical brother, and her mother in law. Now, working with your husband, as I can tell you, is not always easy. There's definitely messy parts, but also amazing parts. Now, in this case, she's written a memoir that unpacks the secrets of her childhood, but also reveals a lot about being married to her husband and business partner. A lot of messy parts. And let me tell you a lot of bravery and actually telling these stories out loud and for all of us to hear and unpack. So thank you so much for coming. I love that you're on the blue couch and, you know, you just wrote a book called Selfish, which is, as a marketer, a very good title, but also a really interesting question. Yes. And before we dig into the book, I want to start with sort of the young Carrie. Right. Because all of our stories start somewhere usually at the beginning. You know, you were a kid who grew up near Lake Erie. Seemed very idyllic when I read about it. Tell us a little bit about what you were like as a kid and what it was like growing up in a house with secrets.
Carrie Doherty
Yes. So I grew up in Buffalo, New York, in a suburb and middle child, older brother, younger sister. And I was the quintessential happy go lucky. The peacemaker. Loved to be in the spotlight, loved to make sure everyone was okay. I do not like conflict. And so at a young age, I started to take on the role as the peacemaker. So how can I ensure that everything's okay?
Interviewer
Does every family have a peacemaker?
Carrie Doherty
Not necessarily. Not necessarily. Although I think people Would probably say the middle child can play that role. But I was definitely the peacemaker.
Interviewer
Well, I'm definitely an older child, and I definitely am also a peacemaker, so that's interesting. Okay, so you grow up in a family where you're the middle child, clearly the peacemaker. Why is the middle child? Was your role to be the peacemaker? Like, what was going on where you needed to keep peace?
Carrie Doherty
I don't know. And I think a lot of it is family dynamics. I grew up in a pretty content family household, but we are quintessentially Irish Catholic, where we didn't talk about things that might be unfolding.
Interviewer
It seems like an idyllic family life. And I think, you know, probably generationally, too, our parents used to not share as much.
Carrie Doherty
Yes, of course. Of course. And there's no blame there. I think, you know, there are family operating systems that work for a reason. I found myself to be groomed at a young age, and this is not just a family, but by society as a woman, to be kind, generous, smiling, and put other people first. I didn't just learn that in my home. I learned that in school. I learned that in college. I learned that from the media.
Interviewer
Why do you think it's bad to be kind?
Carrie Doherty
It's not bad to be kind.
Interviewer
Okay.
Carrie Doherty
Right. Yes. I think a lot of the attributes that I had are amazing attributes. But if I'm serving other people's needs without filling my own well or noting what my needs are, that's when there starts to become a disconnect.
Interviewer
So I read that your dad had cancer and nobody talked about it. And it's interesting because my mom had cancer when I was in ninth grade, and it was like it wasn't happening. I only remember once going to Stanford Hospital. To this day, people are like, what kind of cancer? I'm like, I don't know. Cause we didn't talk about it. So much so that I actually don't remember anymore. But that also happened in your household. Yes.
Carrie Doherty
And I don't know if that was necessarily the, quote, unquote, wrong thing to do. You know, I open up the book about the spooky story Jenny with a Green Ribbon, about a little girl who always wears a green ribbon around her neck. And people say, why do you wear the green ribbon? She doesn't tell anyone. She gets married. Her husband asks her why she wears the green ribbon. On her deathbed, she tells her husband, you can take off the green ribbon.
Interviewer
You can find out for yourself why wear the green ribbon?
Carrie Doherty
And her head falls Off. And I jumped in glee when I heard this story as a kid, because I wondered, was Jenny being selfish for carrying the secret of her own fragility for so long such that other people wouldn't worry about her?
Interviewer
How old were you when you read the story?
Carrie Doherty
Probably nine, 10. And, you know, it's not dissimilar to my dad. He didn't want to worry us. He thought this was an act of selflessness to not share the truth about what was happening. Happening in his life so as to protect us from having hard feelings.
Interviewer
So when did you find. I mean, you didn't find out till years later.
Carrie Doherty
Decade?
Interviewer
Decades. Somebody read.
Carrie Doherty
I remember your sister was, like, snooping
Interviewer
in my mom's journal and found out.
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
Well, first of all. Okay, that is already deep. She was snooping in your mom's journal. Wait, what?
Carrie Doherty
Exactly.
Interviewer
What's happening in your house? Totally.
Carrie Doherty
Totally.
Interviewer
But your mom journaled, so she put her secrets in a book.
Carrie Doherty
My mom was an avid journaler. I'm an avid journaler. We love writing down our thoughts.
Interviewer
So your secrets are actually written. This is fascinating.
Carrie Doherty
Yes. And then look at me now. Like, essentially, this book is journal entries.
Interviewer
Yeah. But also, this sense of, like, private and public was really, clearly. I mean, I grew up in a household where, you know, you. You put on a armor to the outside world. You did not share. Those were things you didn't talk about.
Carrie Doherty
Yeah.
Interviewer
And I think it was less about protecting us as much as it was, you know, that just was cultural. So, first of all, why do you think now? Because actually, you're sharing not just with your family, but with the world. Why do you think it was not good not to share in this book?
Carrie Doherty
I try not to make judgment calls of what was good or what was bad as much as how it affected me. What I learned was, if you do not feel like you can share certain things about yourself, it could be a seat of shame within.
Interviewer
I'm gonna say it's not good not to share because it's so funny, because you keep saying it's not a judgment call. And I don't know about judgment, because that feels like a very heavy word.
Carrie Doherty
Yeah.
Interviewer
But the problem with secrets is that there's a cost.
Carrie Doherty
Absolutely right. So there is a cost.
Interviewer
There's a cost to not sharing. There's a cost to pretending there's a cost to not talking about the messy parts. Yes. For other people. 1. Because they don't know when the bad things happen to them that other people have gone through it. I remember a friend saying, to me once. Why didn't you tell me? Because, like, I was going through it, and even when she was going through something that was something that I'd experienced, I just never even talked. I never even said, oh, that also happened to me in that moment. It's not good for you. It's also not good for other people.
Carrie Doherty
I mean, your podcast is based on messiness and allowing ourselves to share the truth and the inner, messy parts that are unresolved or that we're still in process. In. And that is an act of service. And I believe that to be true. I believe that when we share the messy, shameful, scary parts of ourselves, even if we're not fully out of that cycle, it is an act of service because it is a form of intimacy with humanity to be able to connect with people and their messiness as well.
Interviewer
In some ways, it's funny. I also think it's selfish because in. In speaking your truth, you're letting it go to some degree. Right. Maybe not fully, but there's some sense of you're not carrying it in the way that you've been carrying it before.
Carrie Doherty
So selfish to share or not to share?
Interviewer
No, it's selfish to share like, it's good for other people, but it's also good for you.
Carrie Doherty
And I think that's what this book hopes to start conversation around is how do we define selfish and how do we reclaim it? So it's not an insult. It's actually a declaration of, I am allowing all different parts of me to exist, even if they're contradictory, even if they're messy, even if they can cause harm to other people. And as I share in the book, the self is not an individual, which is a quote by Prentice Hempel. We are also deeply connected. Myself is connected to yourself. We're literally breathing in each other's air right now as we speak.
Interviewer
That's why I like doing these in person. Okay, so you go to college, you're an athlete. I love sort of that whole description of you being an athlete, and you show up in college and you meet your now husband.
Carrie Doherty
Yes. First day of college.
Interviewer
First day Spanish class. Yes. Walk me through what that was like. And did he come from a family that held onto secrets?
Carrie Doherty
He came from a very similar Irish Catholic family. He was an athlete as well. Youngest of seven kids. He walked into Spanish class wearing board shorts and Incredible Hulk tank top. He smelled like metal. Had just been in the weight room.
Interviewer
Smelled of metal. Okay, amazing. Did you share your messy stories with him?
Carrie Doherty
I think we both, as we Became more emotionally intimate, shared more about our background. Absolutely.
Interviewer
All through your childhood, when your siblings struggled.
Carrie Doherty
Yeah.
Interviewer
You were sort of not impacted by that. Or maybe you were.
Carrie Doherty
I think I was definitely impacted by it, but I don't think I necessarily had the self awareness to know how I was the one that was always fine. And I think there is a burden to bear from people who feel like they always have to be fine 100%
Interviewer
because there's no room for you to. Why would you talk about it? Because you're just adding to the weight of the family.
Carrie Doherty
And I convinced myself I was always fine. I mean, I share that I diagnosed myself with pre Enlightenment syndrome.
Interviewer
Wait, what is that?
Carrie Doherty
I mean, I essentially just made it up. But that I. I am so fine all the time. I am perfectly okay at all times. And my therapist reminded me that's not true. You're just repressed.
Interviewer
It's like, I can so relate to this. Wait, when did you start going to therapy?
Carrie Doherty
Law school. Law school was pretty long.
Interviewer
Was therapy a thing in your family growing up? Because it definitely was not in my family.
Carrie Doherty
My mom saw a spiritual counselor.
Interviewer
Does that come with church? Like, where do you find one of those?
Carrie Doherty
I don't even know how she found it. We went to Catholic church, but it wasn't associated with the Catholic church.
Interviewer
But so not like traditional therapy.
Carrie Doherty
Correct.
Interviewer
Like lie on the couch going in therapy.
Carrie Doherty
My mom was like, if you have a problem, there are two places to go. You watch Oprah or you see a psychic or a spiritual person. Oh, okay.
Interviewer
That's amazing.
Carrie Doherty
Okay. And I'm not that dissimilar. Let me, let me.
Interviewer
Well, so you got into mindfulness early.
Carrie Doherty
I did, I did. And I really credit my mom. You know, my mom was a stay at home mom. Gave up a career at a young age, raised three kids. And I never really saw her outside of the identity of a mom like that. She didn't have needs. She was my mom. And then at the end of high school, we were at the dinner table and she said, I'm going to India for a month to become a yoga teacher.
Interviewer
I'm sorry, what?
Carrie Doherty
Yes. And this is before the days of like, you know, Lululemons on every corner. And I remember my first question was, what is dad gonna do?
Interviewer
What did your dad do?
Carrie Doherty
My dad was fine. And my mom said, he will be fine. And he was fine. And when my mom got back from her yoga training, she was different. And I don't just mean. Cause she like wore mala beads on her wrist. And I don't think I could fully understand it at the time, but it planted a seed in me that my mom chose to do something that was very inconvenient, very entire family.
Interviewer
But somebody might say, oh, my God, really? She left her family.
Carrie Doherty
I'm sorry, meals and laundry for a month. How dare you? But it was such an act of service to me as her daughter. And I think that's where in the book, I love to explore these stories about what might have been selfish to her was actually such a gift and an act of service to me as her daughter.
Interviewer
Okay, so let me take you back to Yale. You meet your husband. He's one of seven, but actually has an identical twin.
Carrie Doherty
Correct.
Interviewer
I'm Gonna Fast forward 10 years.
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
You guys all end up deciding to go into business together.
Carrie Doherty
Correct.
Interviewer
Including your mother in law.
Carrie Doherty
Correct.
Interviewer
So four of you, in essence.
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
Into family business. And within 10 weeks, you and the twins are living together above the store and working together.
Carrie Doherty
Alex and I got married. Two weeks later, we moved in with his brother in law. They both quit their jobs. We built a trailer, essentially a mobile beach track on wheels. We took it cross country there and back. We were living out of a pickup truck, essentially.
Interviewer
Why were you doing that?
Carrie Doherty
This is 2013. We started the clothing brand called Faraday brand casual lifestyle clothing, bathing suits, flannels.
Interviewer
And the twins really grew up by the beach. They'd always dreamed of having this business,
Carrie Doherty
like an elevated surf brand. You know, it's hard to start a business. And we thought there was only one way to sell clothes. Get on the road, hand to hand combat, and start slanging flannels out of any parking lot that we can find.
Interviewer
Very Phil Knight of you, but okay.
Carrie Doherty
And so that's what we did. We eventually opened up a store. We couldn't pay our rent, so we lived above the store.
Interviewer
But that's a lot of togetherness. Let's just talk about that for a second, because it's not even just above the store. It's in a van.
Carrie Doherty
Correct.
Interviewer
The three of you in a van together.
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
And how was that dynamic?
Carrie Doherty
You know, I think at the time it felt exciting. I wasn't really one that understood boundaries. I don't think any of us understood boundaries.
Interviewer
No, not a lot of seven children. No boundaries.
Carrie Doherty
No boundaries. And I also think when you start a family business, it is all hands on deck. And we were so obsessed with making sure that this, this business made it, because if it didn't, we were all going down with the ship.
Interviewer
But you were doing social justice, legal work. Before, like, I know that it was the boy's dream from childhood. It wasn't your dream from childhood. Why did you give up your dream or did you have a dream?
Carrie Doherty
I did have a dream. And I loved social justice. I loved mindfulness and psychic alert. One of the reasons why I joined is I saw a psychic and I said, you know, my husband has a startup. We are a startup as a marriage, and I have a startup. I was teaching mindfulness to lawyers at that time, and I don't know how to balance all of this. And the psychic said, faraday brand is a fast moving current. You cannot swim against it. Go with the flow. Join the brand and infuse your passions and gifts into the brand.
Interviewer
Okay, so you see the psychic as you're in a moment of transition and you're like, somebody give me a sign.
Carrie Doherty
Just, can someone just do the work for me and tell me what to do? It's like a spiritual choker. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but I don't regret it. And we all joined. I fell in love with this company in a lot of ways. It brought my husband and I closer.
Interviewer
Well, you were together all the time.
Carrie Doherty
We were together all the time. And I did start to infuse some of my gifts around social justice and culture and philanthropy and community building, and I infused that into the brand.
Interviewer
Clearly, you got along with your. The other twin.
Carrie Doherty
Yes, yes, yes. There's three of you. But of course we fought. I mean, it was a lot and it still is a lot. Working with your family is a lot.
Interviewer
So I, you know, started working with my husband, Andy, which I think you met him when you came in.
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
And we still hear him.
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
It's hard, but also amazing at the same time.
Carrie Doherty
Yes. I think it can make or break a relationship. So when people are like, oh, I'm thinking about working with my husband, I don't ever give advice as to whether or not it's a good or bad idea. But I do say it will take you to the edges of your relationship in terms of what's working and what's
Interviewer
not working, because there's no boundaries. Sometimes my husband says, like, can we not talk about work? But, like, you talk about work all the time.
Carrie Doherty
Yes. I mean, the business became our foreplay at times. It was like our queen size bed was our conference room. There was no end of the day, we would get in bed and we would be hashing out, you know, marketing plans at 11:30 at night.
Interviewer
Because you're always on, always on he's better at turning it off than me. So if somebody is starting a business and is considering doing a business with their partner.
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
Do you have advice for them? Like, what have you learned when you look back and say, I wish I'd known this.
Carrie Doherty
I wish we had started couples therapy earlier. I wish we had very clear conversations around what different roles would be.
Interviewer
Did you know what your role was?
Carrie Doherty
No, none of us knew. We just jumped in. We each of us had seven jobs,
Interviewer
but one brother had. Your husband was in finance.
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
His brother came from retail, worked at Ralph Lauren.
Carrie Doherty
He was a designer. Yes. Right.
Interviewer
You clearly had legal and other.
Carrie Doherty
Exactly.
Interviewer
And your mother in law was a designer. So you had lanes.
Carrie Doherty
Yes, we all had lanes. And I joke, we each only had a cord of a brain and so we kind of knew which part of our brain needed to be used for which part of the business. You know, the book opens with my husband and I in couple therapy negotiating my salary.
Interviewer
You have a lot to ask about that.
Carrie Doherty
So I think, you know, you ask what's the advice with working with your partner? Is it really brings up a lot of conversations around value. How do we discern value? Where does emotional labor, who's supporting who? I mean, it'll showcase so many different parts of the relationship that when you're getting married and exchanging your vows, you probably haven't discussed value.
Interviewer
Not in terms of, do you have shared values? Value as in like, what's your value to get paid? Because your couple's therapy session could have been about a lot of things, but it was actually about how much you should get paid versus your husband.
Carrie Doherty
And what is the quality of the work that is being done and how do we place value on that work?
Interviewer
You go into this couples therapy. Did you know that you were gonna be talking about this topic?
Carrie Doherty
Yes. So literally went to the couples therapy to negotiate my salary.
Interviewer
Right, but you're married, so technically both of your salaries goes into the same pot. Sure. Yes. What do you mean yes? Common law.
Carrie Doherty
Yes, sure, of course. Of course.
Interviewer
So it's different than what your brother in law might be getting paid.
Carrie Doherty
Correct.
Interviewer
So why is that an issue? Because it's going to the same place. So why is there a need to delineate what one of you makes versus the other?
Carrie Doherty
I think from a financial independency and an autonomy perspective, I thought it was very important for me to. You know, we did have a shared bank account, but we, we mainly had separate bank accounts for most of our life.
Interviewer
So are you the one who wanted to have this conversation, because in reading it, I thought he was the one who.
Carrie Doherty
I think both of us, we were talking about how much should I get paid? He was CEO, the hardest role. I will give him credit. Being a CEO is one of the hardest jobs in the world.
Interviewer
When you started, did the four of you, including your mother in law who did all the design work, did you say this is how we're going to split it up?
Carrie Doherty
No, not really.
Interviewer
So at what point does that come up?
Carrie Doherty
I think it comes up when someone starts taking issue with it. And I think when you have a startup, you have to understand we started from scratch. Yeah, we had nothing, we had no roles, we had no money. We were hiring, you know, 23 year olds that we met on the road, come and join us. And so the, you know, corporate structure, roles, finances, all of that was a work in progress. And so we were in real time trying to look at this brand and be like, what is the information infrastructure behind it that makes people feel seen and validated?
Interviewer
So how many years in do you have this conversation about why you two should get married?
Carrie Doherty
Maybe two, two and a half years in.
Interviewer
And when did you have the conversation about how much your brother in law should get?
Carrie Doherty
That was less of the conversation about how much should the two of us get.
Interviewer
So you go to couples therapy and you're negotiating your salary. Unexpected thing to, you know, end up at. How does that impact your actual relationship?
Carrie Doherty
Well, I think the couples therapist was very much like, how do you feel valued? How do you feel? How are the two of you communicating? How are the two of you dealing with your own inner child wounds that might be exacerbating this situation? He made us do deeper work that was so much beyond money.
Interviewer
And he said something to you in that meeting that I remember that it was a little bit jarring.
Carrie Doherty
He said, you know, I should make more because I'm CEO and I have a bigger job scope and, and I'm just more committed to the brand and to the marriage, which I don't disagree with. And he said, and you just do what you want.
Interviewer
What does that mean?
Carrie Doherty
Well, I asked him, well, why don't you do what you want? And he said, because I'm not selfish. And that's how the book starts. Right.
Interviewer
But what does you do what you want mean? I don't even understand that.
Carrie Doherty
At some point I decided to become acutely aware of how things made me feel and I started to lean into things that made me feel more alive.
Interviewer
Like what?
Carrie Doherty
Making business decisions that maybe weren't great. For profit. But that made me feel like I was bringing my gifts to the table, making decisions around sustainability that caused production issues within the brand. But that was really important to me.
Interviewer
Meet as a board. Like, how did that decision.
Carrie Doherty
I mean, there was no board at this time. It was, you know, it's the three of us and some of our team in a room at all hashing out these decisions.
Interviewer
How would you win that argument?
Carrie Doherty
I would just be annoyingly stubborn.
Interviewer
One of your gifts?
Carrie Doherty
One of my gifts, which is ironic because I'm a peacemaker and I don't like conflict. But at some point, I realized that being a peacemaker also meant feeling at peace with myself. And so sometimes I'm willing to sacrifice my peace for conflict if it feels honoring and aligned with my needs.
Interviewer
Did you at any point think to yourself, you know what? Like, you go do this business with your brother, I'm gonna step out and go pursue social justice like I had initially done.
Carrie Doherty
There were definitely times when, and I share this in the book, I started feeling extremely burned out.
Interviewer
Do you think you were heard when you had those moments?
Carrie Doherty
I think there wasn't a lot of room to be heard again. It was full survival mode. And so I think Alex and Mike both understood that I was burned out, but there was no time for burnout.
Interviewer
But also, they were burnt out. Probably. It's a lot having your own business.
Carrie Doherty
I mean, they didn't admit that they were burned out, but I think to grow a business, it's not always productive to know how you feel. Because if you actually become aware of how you feel when you are starting a business and you start to get drained and you start to get burned out. Capitalism is built on maximizing human capital for profit. And we were a part of that cycle, which is we had to shut down parts of ourselves in order to make the brand work.
Interviewer
And it was difficult, right? It was a difficult ride. You were, like, holding things together for many years.
Carrie Doherty
Couldn't pay bills. I was illegally Airbnb our apartment so we could afford rent. It was financially stressful. It was honestly financially stressful up until just a couple years ago. I feel like we can only finally breathe now. And Faraday Brand has been around for 13 years, and all the while, you're
Interviewer
holding that as a secret because to the outside world, you're like a carefree surf brand.
Carrie Doherty
There was a part of us that was carefree and having a great time, and then there was also a part of me that was completely breaking down.
Interviewer
You tell the story, because I think one of the interesting things about your journey is that you got to a point, the journaling comes in and the secret unpacking comes in multiple times in your story. But there was a point at which you could have ended this relationship and you didn't. And so I think that's worth talking about because there's probably a lesson in that many would have expected in that moment that you would no longer be married at this point.
Carrie Doherty
Yes. And I think there were times for both of us when we had to ask ourselves, do we still want to be in this relationship? I will say it's fascinating to see the different seasons that a marriage can endure. What does that mean? I think I was always, and I still am, of the belief that if things really aren't working, it's okay to move on. I'm a lawyer, and lawyers should never sign a contract that lasts forever. It's just unconscionable. And that is what marriage is. And at some point, Alex and I started to joke maybe this marriage would be a year to year contract. And we said it jokingly. But I think that joke planted a seed within us that we are not stuck. We always can choose.
Interviewer
That didn't feel destabilizing.
Carrie Doherty
I don't know if it was destabilizing as much as a reality.
Interviewer
Do you want to talk about that moment where you go to Coachella and actually almost end up in a different place in your life?
Carrie Doherty
Yes, yes, yes. I'm happy to talk about that.
Interviewer
All right, over to you.
Carrie Doherty
There was a period in our time, in our marriage when I was started to create a whole other fantasy world. And a lot of it was really just in my head. And I share this in the book about forming this ambiguous relationship with an artist who was so attuned with his feelings, who, day in, day out, took his feelings and alchemized it into art.
Interviewer
So not like your husband.
Carrie Doherty
So not like my husband. And I fell so in love with that part of that person. And what I really realize is that was a part of myself that was so yearning to come forward. I wanted to be an artist. I wanted to be the one that took my journal entries and could create beautiful pieces of work that I could share with the world.
Interviewer
But in the moment your husband discovers
Carrie Doherty
that I'm having deep. That I'm having deep feelings for another man.
Interviewer
Yeah. It's not just theoretical. Like this actually happened.
Carrie Doherty
Exactly. And there were definitely lines that were crossed.
Interviewer
So how did he find out?
Carrie Doherty
My husband knew of the friendship. But in 2020, I joined a writing collective Brooklyn Writers Collective. And I was given a prompt. Carrie, write a letter that you'll never send. And I wrote a letter to the character Beau, who's in the book, on his wedding day. And I really highlighted my feelings for him. I chronicled the years of our friendship, some of which definitely crossed a line. Not necessarily a physical line, but an emotional one. And I read it in my writing collective. There was a woman in the class who afterwards said, I need to tell you. I was very triggered by that piece. The woman said, my husband had a relationship like this, and it was so painful for me. Can we go out to dinner and talk about it? So me and this woman go out to dinner, and as we're talking about it, my phone buzzes, and I look down, and I look at the text, and it's from Alex. And he said, hi, I read your letter to Beau.
Interviewer
How did that feel?
Carrie Doherty
It felt both terrifying and also profoundly relieving, because I am not someone who wants secrets.
Interviewer
So what'd you say to that woman?
Carrie Doherty
I said, you're not gonna believe this. And she was like, good luck.
Interviewer
She was like, okay, you go.
Carrie Doherty
Bless. Good luck. And then I text my writing teacher, and I said, alex read the letter, and she said, congratulations. No more secrets.
Interviewer
So you get in the Uber?
Carrie Doherty
I get in the Uber.
Interviewer
Are you in a panic?
Carrie Doherty
I am in a. I feel like I'm in the eye of the storm, where you know that there is a storm brewing, but there is, like, a strange, profound calm.
Interviewer
So what awaited when you got in the door?
Carrie Doherty
I walked in. The apartment was a mess. My kids were, like, playing with permanent markers drawing on the wall on our Brooklyn floors. And Alex is standing there and is so upset. And I remember looking him in the eye, and I could see so much pain in his eye. And the first thing I thought was, oh, my God, you're still in there. And I think it really.
Interviewer
What does that mean? You're still in there?
Carrie Doherty
I think we had been such business partners for so many years that we had forgotten, like, the spiritual and deep, soulful connection we had. And I had forgotten that I could bring him pain and that he could
Interviewer
bring me pain, because really, you just spend all your time being like, what's happening with the orders?
Carrie Doherty
Yeah. What are HR issues we have to work through? We had become business partners, and seeing the pain that I caused him was a reminder of, like, oh, my gosh, where do we go from here?
Interviewer
And so what's the next step in that?
Carrie Doherty
We hug, and we both start crying. And then the next day I wake up and there is a letter.
Interviewer
Alex, how did you even go to sleep that night? I would have been up all night.
Carrie Doherty
No, I mean, it was probably like two in the morning. But in the morning, Alex gets up and goes to work. And I look over and there is a letter next to where he.
Interviewer
Because you got to go to work. Because it's your business.
Carrie Doherty
Because we got to go to work.
Interviewer
There's no calling in sick.
Carrie Doherty
And he writes a letter to himself. From my point of view, which was
Interviewer
so unusual, when I read that, I was like, what made him think to do that?
Carrie Doherty
I always joke and I say this in the book, that for so many years, I couldn't tell if Alex was repressed or the Buddha. And he wrote this letter, like, essentially saying, I understood why you did what you did.
Interviewer
It was an impact letter. Yeah. Have you ever heard of those?
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
It's an impact letter of the impact it had. But it's actually, instead of him writing it to you, he wrote it through your voice. It's so empathetic.
Carrie Doherty
It is so empathetic. And so then I did the same. And then, you know, I show up at work, and we share an office, but there's a plexiglass between our two offices. So one room, Plexiglass. I can see him in so much pain, having to still show up and plan email blasts and look at inventory forecasting, and I'm on PR calls, and we can see each other through the plexiglass. And we just know that both of us are hurting.
Interviewer
I mean, you know, so many of us go through messy parts and have moments, particularly at work. Right. Like where you show up and you have to pretend like everything's fine.
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
You're describing that because there are no boundaries. Because you're together 24 7.
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
And so you're watching him through the plexiglass, knowing he's in pain. Like, when do other people become witnesses to your pain?
Carrie Doherty
I often say that running a business is not dissimilar to running a household. And that much like kids can sense dynamics, team members can probably sense dynamic. Some of our team members are going to read this book, and it is brutally honest.
Interviewer
You didn't share early copies?
Carrie Doherty
No, no. I mean, legally advised. Do not share copies to your team members. I mean, there's just. This book is brutally honest. It talks about our sex life. It talks about my body, it talks about vaginal maintenance. And also what I share is, like, I am a complicated human, as we all are, and I'm not afraid to tell the truth of that messiness.
Interviewer
So you've come through the messy parts. I mean, there's still messy parts to be had. There's still messy parts to be had. What is the lesson you've learned coming through? What is a pretty big messy part?
Carrie Doherty
I have learned that the messiness is the beautiful part. And all of the messiness and all of the pain and all of the consequences that come from telling the truth. On the other flip side of that is intimacy.
Interviewer
There was a part of you, clearly, that always wanted to be an artist. The writing was a form of it.
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
You decide to go to writing a writing collective. Writing collective. And that begins to unlock something for you.
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
But it's really a turning point for you because you also then write a children's book, and now you've written this book. Like, in a family where you grew up with secrets, you're now just letting it all hang out.
Carrie Doherty
I know. Bless my family. They are like, we did not sign up. We love you and support you. We did not sign up for this.
Interviewer
Have they taken a lesson from this from you?
Carrie Doherty
I think it depends who you ask.
Interviewer
Which family member.
Carrie Doherty
Which family member?
Interviewer
The ones we're still talking to.
Carrie Doherty
I mean, I was convinced that this book would give my father a heart attack. My dad's 82. So kind, very private. I've always been the one he's never had to worry about. And now I'm like, this book is so honest. It has been so profoundly healing for me to see how my.
Interviewer
Have they read the book, your family?
Carrie Doherty
My mom has read the book multiple times. My mom's therapist has read the book. Like, oh, this book has been circulated, let me tell you.
Interviewer
But not your dad.
Carrie Doherty
My dad has been read a lot of sections of the book. He's also not a reader, but I think he's so proud of me in a way that it, like, makes me emotional. He's so proud of me of being my most authentic self, even though he would have not have chosen any of the decisions that I've done.
Interviewer
You also write about. There was a moment that I don't think you guys thought there was room for a child, which I think is interesting to talk about, because a business is like a child.
Carrie Doherty
Oh, yeah. And when I told Alex I wanted a kid, he said, you know, we do have a kid, and it's Verity Brand.
Interviewer
Well, how did that feel?
Carrie Doherty
I mean, he wasn't wrong. Feherty was a child, but Feherty didn't love me back. Like, I wanted a child. That Loved me back.
Interviewer
Did you know? But you knew he didn't want a child.
Carrie Doherty
I knew he wasn't ready for one. And then there's a scene in the book where he changes his mind and he says, you know, the act of having a kid right now is selfish, Carrie. And I need you to put that need on hold.
Interviewer
This word comes up a lot.
Carrie Doherty
It comes up a lot. Cue the title of the book.
Interviewer
I know, but it's so interesting because it's such a word with judgment, and
Carrie Doherty
it's definitely a word that is often used for women more. And don't. You know, I'm not. You're gonna be like, I'm not a sociological, like, student of all of this, but when men sacrifice everything to have a business, they're not seen as selfish. Even if their marriages are completely breaking down, they're not in the home at dinner. They're not called selfish. They're called ambitious.
Interviewer
They're called breadwinners.
Carrie Doherty
They're called breadwinners. They're ambitious, they're successful. But when a woman starts to do things based on her needs, needs that inconvenience other people, that word gets used.
Interviewer
So now with this hindsight, you're talking to somebody who's 35. What advice do you have for them?
Carrie Doherty
My advice for them is to become acutely aware of how things make you feel and lean into the things that make you feel alive. Not necessarily make you feel good short term, because a lot of things can make us feel good. The wellness industry is built on, like, feeling good. What makes you feel alive?
Interviewer
So we have some rapid fire questions. Okay, what would you say is your messiest moment from 1 to 10?
Carrie Doherty
That's such a good question. I mean, I just. I think I have messy moments most days. They usually regard parenting and trying to be both present with my kids while also wanting to scream.
Interviewer
When was the last time you cried?
Carrie Doherty
I cried three days ago.
Interviewer
What is a piece of advice you have for someone who's navigating a pivot?
Carrie Doherty
Keep leaning into the things that make you feel good.
Interviewer
So what's your title at work now? Now that you've negotiated your salary?
Carrie Doherty
Okay, so co Founder. And then for years it was Chief Impact Officer. Although right now with the book launch, it's more just an advisor of impact related activities.
Interviewer
What is the day in the life of a Chief Impact Officer?
Carrie Doherty
Officer, I can't speak for everyone, but for me, it's taking the ferry to work with my husband and then talking to the team about anything from HR issues, brand related marketing, things Sustainability. We're a certified B corp. Making sure we're doing things from a certification perspective, making sure our team feels supported.
Interviewer
You've never been laid off. It doesn't sound like. But you deal with a lot of HR issues right at work. What's advice you have for somebody who's looking to get a raise? Like, what's an advice you would give to your own child who's looking to get a raise at work?
Carrie Doherty
I'm a big, big advocate of people writing things down. Write down the salary you want with the number, the reasons you believe that you should get it, and then share that. From a place of neutrality, what does that mean? I think keeping things clear of, like, this is what I think I am worthy of and deserve. I think sometimes when we bring a lot of fear and anxiety into a conversation, that vibration is the loudest in the room. So if you can be present and have a little bit sense of a neutrality, of not knowing how something might go, but trusting that you're just going to state what you need, clearly, it's the most effective communication tool.
Interviewer
So just be a little neutral in that moment.
Carrie Doherty
Yeah. Be present in your body. Be present in your body.
Interviewer
You know, it's interesting because, you know, I'm in business with my husband. I've had different partnerships who've gone sideways.
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
They tell you to think about the prenup or the exit when things go bad.
Carrie Doherty
Right.
Interviewer
You know, at the beginning, so that you're not at the end trying to negotiate things that really. Yes. And you are a lawyer. Right?
Carrie Doherty
Correct. I mean, a bad one. Clearly.
Interviewer
That's a lot of judgment. Oh, my God. You live in a world of judgment. This is so interesting. We're going to free you of that. Maybe the book will free you of that. Did it never occur to all of you at the time, like maybe having some definition or some guardrails?
Carrie Doherty
No, There were certain. There were certainly governing documents that were in play. But I think the things that we, you know, so much of a business growing. Growing quickly is a work in progress. Like, we didn't have a completely formalized board. I had never run a company before. I had never run hr. And so all of that I learned very quickly. But sometimes some of the systems we put into the company, what we did with each other, the three of us were like, we'll deal with those later.
Interviewer
Figure that.
Carrie Doherty
Yes.
Interviewer
I have one question for you, which is, you know, AI has impacted lots of different things. What are the things you worry about today that you didn't have to worry about before from a business perspective regarding
Carrie Doherty
AI or AI tariffs.
Interviewer
I mean, everybody I know who's in retail is in such a tailspin at the moment. Yes.
Carrie Doherty
I think talk about messy supply chain politics affects every part of our business all the time. Employment law, what health care our team can access, how people feel safe. Again, tariffs, where we're making something, environmental regulations. I mean, we are constantly dealing with politics in real time.
Interviewer
So as somebody who's a business owner. Right. A founder, what advice do you have for somebody who's interested in getting into retail today?
Carrie Doherty
Just love problems.
Interviewer
Because there's a lot of them.
Carrie Doherty
There's a lot of them.
Interviewer
And do you guys use a lot of AI now?
Carrie Doherty
Not yet. I mean, there's definitely like generative AI and then there's AI from like a background perspective, like integrating systems and how they talk about it. We're not doing generative AI, but we are like, huh. We have. We have inventory issues and trying to figure out what pieces of clothing should go to what store. Are there ways of connecting our stores to our inventory team that helps. Makes it so much easier. We're definitely looking for places we can solve problems that make it easier for our team. Doesn't mean we don't need those people on our teams, but it makes their jobs easier.
Interviewer
You're still going to need people. That's how it goes.
Carrie Doherty
Correct.
Interviewer
Thank you so much. It was great to have you.
Carrie Doherty
Thank you for having me.
Interviewer
I'm excited for everyone to learn about being selfish.
Carrie Doherty
Thank you.
Podcast: The Messy Parts
Host: Maryam Banikarim
Guest: Kerry Docherty, Co-Founder of Faherty Brand
Date: June 1, 2026
This episode features a candid, deeply personal conversation with Kerry Docherty—lawyer, writer, mindfulness practitioner, and co-founder of the sustainable surf lifestyle brand, Faherty. Host Maryam Banikarim and Kerry explore the messiness of building a business with family, grappling with secrets, redefining "selfishness" as an act of service, and navigating seasons of marriage and personal authenticity. Kerry’s journey is illuminated through stories from her new memoir, Selfish, which unpacks childhood secrets, partnership, entrepreneurship, and the complex path to choosing oneself.
“When we share the messy, shameful, scary parts of ourselves, even if we're not fully out of that cycle, it is an act of service because it is a form of intimacy with humanity.”
—Kerry Docherty (07:13)
“I think that's what this book hopes to start conversation around is how do we define selfish and how do we reclaim it? So it's not an insult. It's actually a declaration of, I am allowing all different parts of me to exist, even if they're messy.”
—Kerry Docherty (08:05)
“The business became our foreplay at times. It was like our queen size bed was our conference room.”
—Kerry Docherty (16:03)
“I wish we had started couples therapy earlier. I wish we had very clear conversations around what different roles would be.”
—Kerry Docherty (16:28)
“To the outside world, you're like a carefree surf brand...then there was also a part of me that was completely breaking down.”
—Kerry Docherty (23:28)
“At some point, I realized that being a peacemaker also meant feeling at peace with myself. And so sometimes I'm willing to sacrifice my peace for conflict if it feels honoring and aligned with my needs.”
—Kerry Docherty (21:39)
On the value of sharing messiness:
“When we share the messy, shameful, scary parts of ourselves, even if we're not fully out of that cycle, it is an act of service because it is a form of intimacy with humanity to be able to connect with people and their messiness as well.”
—Kerry Docherty (07:13)
On the meaning of 'selfish':
“I think that's what this book hopes to start conversation around is how do we define selfish and how do we reclaim it? So it's not an insult. It's actually a declaration of, I am allowing all different parts of me to exist, even if they're messy.”
—Kerry Docherty (08:05)
On working with a spouse:
“The business became our foreplay at times...our queen size bed was our conference room.”
—Kerry Docherty (16:03)
On boundaries in a family business:
“I wish we had started couples therapy earlier. I wish we had very clear conversations around what different roles would be.”
—Kerry Docherty (16:28)
On parenting, work, and entrepreneurship:
“Feherty was a child, but Feherty didn't love me back. Like, I wanted a child that loved me back.”
—Kerry Docherty (33:14)
Advice for negotiating a raise:
“Write down the salary you want with the number, the reasons you believe that you should get it, and then share that. From a place of neutrality...that vibration [fear/anxiety] is the loudest in the room.”
—Kerry Docherty (36:18)
Retail wisdom:
“Just love problems—because there’s a lot of them.”
—Kerry Docherty (38:52)
This episode spotlights how embracing and sharing the messy, unspoken parts of our stories creates deeper connection and, ultimately, a richer, more authentic life. Kerry’s journey—through entrepreneurial grit, marital strife and reconnection, painful vulnerability, and radical honesty—offers actionable wisdom for anyone navigating their own “messy parts.” Her message is especially resonant for women learning to reclaim the word “selfish” as a badge of self-respect and interdependence.
For more insights, personal stories, and honest conversations on navigating the twists and turns of extraordinary careers, tune in to “The Messy Parts” every Monday with Maryam Banikarim.