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- [00:01]
A
It got really scary, Miriam, because at some point, you're out in this abyss of black hole of trying and you're meeting with all these people and you believe in yourself. But how long is it going to take? Is it 8 months? Is it 9? What if this goes on for 15 months and you start getting these negative thoughts of, will I ever find a job? Am I just going to be unemployed for the rest of my life? And in the society we live in, whenever you meet somebody, the first thing they ask is your name. And the second thing they ask is.
- [00:25]
B
What do you do?
- [00:26]
A
And you know, when you're unemployed, you hear it really loud because what do you say to that? And the first thing you want to say is, I'm a failure. I don't have a job.
- [00:37]
B
Welcome to the Messy Parts, the podcast where remarkable leaders share the twists, turns and pivots that shape their uneven journeys. I'm Maryam Banakaram, and I get it because I've lived it. 19 companies, 3 degrees, and countless career detours from NBC to Hyatt Hotels, and everything in between. If you've ever felt unsure about your path, well, you're in the right place. Today we're talking with Irina Novaletsky. She is the CEO of Hootsuite, a social media management platform with 16 million users and 175 countries and 1500 employees globally. Businesses, influencers, and so many others use Hootsuite to control when they plan, schedule, and publish content across all social media networks. It's a very powerful tool. Now, this is her second CEO role. The first time she landed a CEO gig, she was 32 years old. She's had a rocket ship of a career, and as you can imagine, it's also had a lot of messy parts, and that has shaped who she is and how she operates. A mutual friend introduced us, and after our first meeting, I can tell you I knew right then we'd want to hear from her. And so we're going to talk about relentlessness, because that's one of the things I sort of walked away from our breakfast arena. So, first of all, thank you so much for being here with us.
- [02:10]
A
I'm so excited to be here. And I love that you picked the word relentless, because that was one of the first things I thought about you.
- [02:17]
B
Well, I mean, I know that if there's something I'm determined to make happen, kind of like this podcast, I am like a dog with a bone, right? I chase it. And I walked away from our coffee. Really sort of struck that you might actually have that same kind of relentlessness, especially when I think about sort of where you started and where you're going. So you do consider yourself relentless.
- [02:37]
A
You know, it's funny, when you're doing the things that you do, you don't always attribute a title to it and a name to it until somebody calls it that. And so, similar to your background, I came here as a refugee and kind of building up, watching my parents start their life from new, figuring out what is finance. How do you get into college?
- [02:55]
B
Where did you come from? Because listeners won't know you're back.
- [02:58]
A
I'm originally from Ukraine, and so I was born in Kyiv, and we came here as refugees to New York City in the late 80s. I was 4, so I was little. You know, when you grow up in an immigrant home, you grow up in this world where you come home and it's different food, different music, different language, different everything. And then you go to school and it's a completely different world. And so I. I remember taking my smelly salami and kasha sandwiches to school, and kids were taking out their peanut butter and jelly, and all I wanted was this peanut butter and jelly. And I'd go home and say, this is what I want. And they'd be like, what? What. What is peanut butter and what's jelly? Like, that's just not happening. And so you go through life of you learning and you're curious and you're just trying to figure things out. And, you know, what you just said of your dog on the bone is you don't realize that, but when you have no support system, there's no plan B, there's nothing to fall on. You kind of just keep putting left foot in front of. And it probably wasn't until the last five, ten years that people started attributing names to some of those traits that it really resonated of. Yeah, maybe I am a little relentless, but I don't view myself as relentless. I just view that as forward.
- [04:04]
B
Well, I mean, when there's no choice, you either roll up like a ball or you push through. Right? So you talk about having had early jobs because you had no choice. You talk about your father having sort of been this amazing anchor for you. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your parents?
- [04:18]
A
Yeah, my parents are amazing anchors. They started. They've done a lot of contrarian things in life, especially in a society that was really hard to do contrarian things.
- [04:26]
B
Did they come here speaking English? Did you speak English?
- [04:29]
A
No, I didn't speak English. They spoke English on what you can learn from a dictionary. Because when we left, it was the ussr, so you couldn't really learn. There's no classes. You weren't encouraged to do anything. And as part of even raising your hand to be a refugee, you got fired and basically shunned from your community without permission to actually even come to the US and so we had to go through Vienna and we stayed in Italy for a few months until we got permission to even get to the U.S. but my parents had me really late in life, so my dad was 50 when he had me.
- [04:59]
B
Are you an only child?
- [05:00]
A
Only child. At that age you only get one Miriam. Back then, that's just what you got. But my dad is a high level PhD. My mom has masters in chemistry. They're just scientists and really smart. And they had a pretty established life in the ussr. And they literally left with nothing.
- [05:18]
B
So they had to start over 100%.
- [05:19]
A
I think they let you take something like $270 and a few suitcases, and you can only take, you know, one set of earrings and one ring or something very basic. And you come to a country where you don't know anything and it's not like sending. You don't know how to go get groceries, you don't know where to get transportation, and you don't know the language to ask for things. And so you just kind of land and you explore and you figure it out. They never had a victim mentality. It was never of, oh, wow, I was this, in my care, I achieved this, or we had this, and now you're starting from zero. It was, okay, well, we have $3 this week to make it for food. So we're gonna get smart. You can have cabbage salad, you're gonna have cabbage boninjiki, you're gonna have cabbage soup, you know, warm cabbage, cold cabbage, whatever it is. And there was no victim about it. It was just, this is how it is. And so I got to see this amazing resilience and teamwork and this belief that God instilled in me pretty young, that anything is possible in this country.
- [06:17]
B
That's so interesting, because I think I got that. So I too was an immigrant, as you know, but I think I got that from my grandmother and my mom. I mean, to this day, my mom says, you can still be Oprah. And, you know, I roll my eyes because I'm older.
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A
I think you're starting your Oprah career. Just to be clear. I wouldn't roll your eyes just yet.
- [06:33]
B
But so you end up Going to nyu. Right. So you don't really speak English. You start doing jobs early to help in the family.
- [06:40]
A
It's to help, but also, you just didn't want to be a burden. And so, you know, I was a kid. I wanted ice cream, I wanted a present, I wanted a toy. And so you weren't going to go and ask your. That were putting all this together, and I just wanted to be independent and make my own money. And so there was a garage sale in the community, and I'd say, okay, mom, can you take me to Sam's Club? At the time before Costco Heart Costco, can you take me and get me some water bottles? And she'd be like, what do you need a hundred water bottles for? And also, that was money you had to spend to go get it. But they never said no. They went and did it, and I would walk around, ride my bike, and sell water bottles for a dollar. Then I'd go clean cars from snow. And it just started working.
- [07:18]
B
So you were an entrepreneur at a young age.
- [07:20]
A
You know, it's fine. I didn't know what that word meant, but I had money. Yeah, right. I had a dollar here, five bucks here, dollar ten here. I could buy my mom flowers for Mother's Day. I could get myself something. And it wasn't even buying myself something, honestly, Maryam. It was just knowing I could if I wanted to. Yeah. And so that.
- [07:37]
B
Just the freedom that came.
- [07:38]
A
The freedom. It was just the freedom of knowing and basic things to be able to help. You know, sometimes parents don't always have cash on them. And it became a joke of, well, IR always has cash on her because I had my little box of money, you know, and they would go and say, hey, can we borrow whatever? And, you know, it was the three of us. So it wasn't borrowing. It was just one family unit. Yeah.
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B
So how'd you get to nyu?
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A
So I didn't really know the whole college experience because, you know, nobody in my home similar to yours, you kind of just figure it out. Right. You came from Iran, and you're learning and your family's learning. And I knew I needed to finance my own education. And my logic was, if I go to school in New York and I can't find a job in New York, it's a me problem. I'm interested in business at the time because I thought that was a skill set that you could learn. And everyone as they saw me do it now, they saw me doing businesses. They're like, oh, you're a businesswoman and so I didn't know what that meant and put two and two together. Stern @ the time was a top ranked undergrad business school. NYU was 45 minutes from my house. I'm like, this is great. I'm gonna just apply there.
- [08:39]
B
So you get to NYU and you have to pay for it yourself.
- [08:42]
A
Pay for myself. And it is expensive. And at that time, I was really lucky. And I got the scholarship book and I read it and I applied to thousands of scholarships.
- [08:52]
B
That's relentless.
- [08:53]
A
Yeah. Didn't know at the time it was money. You just needed to fund it. It wasn't relentless. In my mind, it was like, okay, this is the gap. This is what I need. Let's go. And I was lucky to get about 50% through hundreds of different little scholarships. And then the rest. I needed a job. And so when you are, you know, 17 or 18 and can't do much, you're looking for whatever jobs you can get. And I saw this list on the New York Stock Exchange floor, which I thought, okay, that's business. It's finance. It's interesting. And at the time, it wasn't fully automated, so it was just the old school kind of how you saw it. And it was an incredible experience. And I just did what I was told. But you know what I could tell you it paid me minimum wage and it included lunch.
- [09:36]
B
Oh, amazing.
- [09:37]
A
Lunch was a really nice asset. But it was just so chaotic and wild. Everything was happening at the same time. And it gave me this just completely different view of the world because, you know, I kind of only saw this corporate America life on tv or, you know, I used to intern in accounting firms and whatever else, but this was just wild. I also learned this is not what I want to do. It was a little too wild for me, but it was just such a great exposure into the world of finance.
- [10:02]
B
So you basically are at nyu Stern undergrad and also working at the stock exchange.
- [10:08]
A
Yeah.
- [10:08]
B
So when did you sleep?
- [10:09]
A
So I do sleep. I love sleep. Probably slept a lot less in my 20s. I sleep a lot more now, but I was working full time. And what was great about Stern is they let you kind of put all their classes in two days. And so I was able to go to school two days and work the other five. And I had a few jobs because one wasn't enough. At $5 an hour, I wasn't going to get there. And so I worked at AIG on the management consult. I mean, I did all kinds of things, all these different jobs. And then I got lucky. One Day, and I got a job in the finance Org in the back office at Morgan Stanley.
- [10:39]
B
This is after you'd graduated.
- [10:41]
A
Oh, this was while my freshman year.
- [10:44]
B
Wow.
- [10:44]
A
And they paid $13.75.
- [10:48]
B
Oh, so better than minimum wage then. Double.
- [10:50]
A
More than double. And so I could quit all these other and just go to one job. And it was a really bad job for me.
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B
Why?
- [10:59]
A
It was boring.
- [11:01]
B
You like the energy of the trading club.
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A
You know, I didn't like the monotony of what I was doing in the back office for me. And I just got into a group that didn't care about overachieving, whatever the quota of that day was. And so I'd get done with my work, and I'd say, okay, what else can I do? And they would say, you should stop asking because you're just gonna make look bad. Go read a book.
- [11:22]
B
That's so crazy, because I've had somebody literally say those exact same words to me.
- [11:26]
A
No way. When.
- [11:27]
B
When I was at Univision, I was sort of like the Energizer Bunny, constantly solving problems. And somebody said to me, you really need to stop doing so many projects. You're making us look bad.
- [11:36]
A
And I remember that's a deflating thing to hear.
- [11:38]
B
But I also remember thinking, like, I'm not trying to get anybody else's job. I'm just trying to do my job.
- [11:42]
A
I'm just trying not to get fired myself. Yeah. And I was 19, and I know it doesn't sound like a lot, but $14 an hour at the time for me was the difference of graduating or not graduating. Right. And so I was willing to work as hard as necessary. And it was so demotivating when somebody said, just go read a book. And she wasn't kidding. And so I would work, and then in the afternoons, I'd read Anna Karenina and sometimes do school work. And I just started emailing every single investment banking MD in the hope to switch departments. In the hope to switch. I heard that investment banking was one of those roles that you just get all this exposure knowledge. They had this amazing training.
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B
They were definitely at the top of the pegging order in those things you.
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A
Learn the most and it paid the most. And I understood that it opened up kind of all these opportunities for me, and a lot of people kind of avoided it because you worked a lot. But at that point, I wanted to learn.
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B
You know what, it's interesting because I, too, send a lot of cold emails in my younger days. Maybe still. I do, actually. I probably still do. And people say to me, like, I remember sending a book to Mickey Drexler in the mail because there was no. There was no Internet, right? And so I would just be like, okay, I'm gonna. I sent it to corporate, you know, in the mail. Or, you know, I remember being like, I want to work on Evita, the film, and finding out that Robert Stig would own the rights, and then tracking down his address and sending a note in the mail.
- [13:00]
A
Amazing.
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B
But by the way, did I get a response? You just did that? Well, I mean, nine out of 10 times I got no response. But one time I get a response. I mean, Mickey Drexler I got to meet. And in fact, that's how my career started, even though I never worked for him. But. Okay, wait a second. So when I tell my stories, people say, that's crazy. Like, what made you decide to think you could do that? I just didn't think. And fear. You just did that because you don't think.
- [13:20]
A
And this goes back to. And I think this is one of the things I say, is that sometimes naivety or just inexperience is one of the biggest gifts in life. Because as you learn how complicated it is right now, you know, math, that 99% of those cold calls don't work. And so now that you have that stat in your head, you think, okay, what's the point of doing it?
- [13:37]
B
But you didn't take it personally.
- [13:38]
A
You didn't take it personally.
- [13:39]
B
You know what I mean? Which is the same for me.
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A
But no is not a personal statement to me. People rejecting me, I don't think is personal. People ignoring me, I don't think it's personal. People saying no to me. It's just like, okay, you're just the wrong person, or, I'm asking the wrong person.
- [13:50]
B
I think this is a really interesting lesson because a couple years ago, I was in Executive residence at Columbia, and I noticed students wanting permission, you know, saying, like, I'd like to get into this class. Can you help me? And my thinking, like, why aren't you just going to see the teacher? And I was so surprised sort of at the age difference and how all of a sudden there was this generation that was looking for permission. And I kept saying, like, well, why aren't you just going after the thing you want? What do you think get you to just move like that? Like, necessity, necessity.
- [14:19]
A
But also, you don't know any better, so you need it, so you do it. And, you know, it's funny that you raised that as an example during your residency. I see it with leaders all the time is they get promoted and then they ask permission to do the thing that they know they need to do. And I always talk about how there's three buckets. One, there's things that you know are just right and you don't even need to inform your boss, just go do it. Two is, you know it's right and you should inform your boss after you do it. And then there's a category, a small category of things you should ask permission for before you do it because there's risk or whatever else. And I think as new leaders, a very disproportionate amount falls into that third category of I have to ask permission because there's this psychological fear of I'm going to get fired or I'm going to do something wrong. And sometimes when you take yourself out of that and you just go, it just enables a lot of the flywheel to start.
- [15:08]
B
So, interestingly, you have this sort of, you know, almost a step back because you're in a group that you think is great and actually is paying you, but it turns out to be just a bad fit, right? And so you send a cold email and you end up with a job in investment.
- [15:21]
A
19 ton of. I mean, yes. And it took a lot more time than that, but eventually it led to a coffee date. One person out of hundreds wrote back, and he's an incredible human being. Harry Van Dyke worked at Morgan Stanley for years and years and was an incredible leader there and introduced me to Jonas Nielsen, who was a VP there. And he had coffee with me and said, we don't hire freshmen. Finish your education and come back, then come see me. And then they did this amazing thing sophomore year, and they opened up a sophomore rotational program for investment banking where they hired 10 kids and I worked them and then I wouldn't leave Miriam. I got that investment banking job and it ended in August because it was a summer internship and I just wouldn't leave. I basically said, let me just keep doing what I've been doing for you. And they're like, well, the internship ends. I'm like, got it. But let me just give you.
- [16:04]
B
Were they paying you?
- [16:05]
A
They were paying me for the internship and then I just kept coming back. I said, let me. There's all this person. It's just like, how do we get her to not come back anymore? But, you know, I was like, you guys are all overworked. I can help. I can come in at night, I can do in the morning. Like, let me just keep doing. Let me Just stay for a few more weeks and help. And a few more weeks turned into a few more months, and a few more months turned into almost, you know, four and a half years.
- [16:25]
B
And so from there you go to Apollo, like pinnacle of the business. What made you make that transition?
- [16:30]
A
So at the time, the thing to do was to go to private equity. And there were three of the top private equity firms to go to. And Apollo was one of them. And for me, Apollo had this really unique differentiators. They were known as kind of the more hard working of the shops, but they had this culture of if you work hard, you get promoted. And it wasn't a drinking, let's go out culture. And coming in as the only female, I couldn't compete in a let's go drinks kind of environment. That wasn't going to be where my skill set was going to be maximized. And they just, I think you could.
- [17:04]
B
Maybe have figured it out, but I.
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A
Don'T, I don't think so. Unless it's water. I am a lightweight and it just doesn't work for me. But they just worked hard and I thought, okay, that's an equalizer. I can, I can work hard.
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B
You're like, I know working hard, I.
- [17:16]
A
Can do that and I can sponge up what I need to. And so I got there and they're very good at what they do. They're the smartest at what they do. I learned a ton. And I also learned I'm not as smart as what it takes to do that or it wasn't my passion. And I, I somehow, I don't know really.
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B
I think you probably are smart. Like maybe it wasn't your passion, it wasn't my passion.
- [17:35]
A
And maybe the passion thing is really important because I was passionate about being successful in what I was doing, right? So I wanted to do good work because the money was important to me. Getting the learning was important to me. The career trajectory that Apollo and the aftermath offered to me was important, but the work itself wasn't really exciting to me. And I remember looking at some of my peers and they loved it, loved it. And I remember sitting there being like, I can't win at this because I don't love it as much.
- [18:02]
B
It's so interesting because I tried a summer at investment banking. I worked at Nomura and I was in the investment banking group. And I remember walking the bank that summer and asking people, if they didn't pay you this much money, would you do this job?
- [18:14]
A
This is what you did.
- [18:15]
B
And honestly, people thought I was crazy. I mean, they just looked at me like, who's this crazy woman? And why is she asking me this question? Literally, the only person who said that to me, I love the yield curve. And I thought, finally, here's somebody who's in the right job. And it's interesting because both of us sort of had financial instability. So you would have thought that the money would have been enough, or. I mean, clearly it was something that was a necessity.
- [18:36]
A
I mean, it was in the beginning, just to be clear.
- [18:38]
B
Well, but even still, you would have been like, okay, that's the only thing. Like me, it seems like you also sort of were interested in something that sort of satisfied you on a different level.
- [18:48]
A
It was both an internal push and an external push at the time. You know, there's the saying. I grew up with that, if you don't want to be the general in an army, why do you want to stay in the soldier squad? And I looked around, and I had no desire to be a leader in the private equity firm. And I didn't want the next promotion. It wasn't a career track I was interested in. And in that environment, if you're not moving up, you're kind of moving out.
- [19:13]
B
So how did you make the pivot?
- [19:15]
A
It was really scary. I mean, I'm in an immigrant home. I got kind of one of these most prestigious jobs to get.
- [19:21]
B
Exactly.
- [19:22]
A
And that pays very well.
- [19:24]
B
Did you leave without a job, or did you look for a job?
- [19:27]
A
I left without a job.
- [19:28]
B
That takes a lot of guts.
- [19:30]
A
I don't know if it's guts or stupid, to be honest, because it definitely does make it harder. And the first few months, my parents and family were so supportive. They're like, yes. You know, because I was moving over to the operation side, and so. So everyone's so supportive. You're doing great. You're gonna find exactly what you're looking for by month six.
- [19:44]
B
Why don't you give a job?
- [19:45]
A
It's time. You're done. Go back to private equity. Go get a job with another private equity firm. This just isn't gonna happen for you. By month eight, My parents are like, that's it. This is it. This is what happens. She peaked. Like, this is. And they were. They were starting to kind of lose hope. Cause it's hard when you're in your late 20s and you're just unemployed because also, so much of society when you're living at home. I was living with my husband at the time, and so, you know, thankfully, you were already married. I was already married. I was a young marri. And so that financial support was there. I mean, I made money earlier in my career that I had kind of a savings to count on.
- [20:16]
B
Sorry, where did you even have time to find a husband?
- [20:18]
A
At work?
- [20:20]
B
Okay, all right, good answer. I have no more follow up questions.
- [20:23]
A
You can't go out. So that is where you find a husband.
- [20:25]
B
Because I was like, there were no hours in the day.
- [20:27]
A
There are no hours in the day, which is you don't leave the building. So they just come to you. It works great. But it got really scary, Miriam, because at some point, you know, you're out in this abyss of black hole of trying, and you're meeting with all these people and you believe in yourself. But how long is it gonna take? Is it eight months? Is it nine? What if this goes on for 15 months? And that, you know, you start getting these negative thoughts of, will I ever find a job? Am I just gonna be unemployed for the rest of my life? And in the society we live in, whenever you meet somebody, the first thing they ask is your name. And the second thing they ask is, what do you do? And you know, when you're unemployed, you hear it really loud because what do you say to that? And the first thing you wanna say is, I'm a failure. I don't have a job. And so you kind of have to come up with an answer. Then you get creative. And then it just.
- [21:13]
B
At some point, I know, you go to a cocktail party, you say, I'm not working. And it's like, you have the plague. People move away.
- [21:17]
A
People move away immediately from you. Right? And so. And then I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna use these moments to tell people, well, I'm looking for a job. Here's what I'm looking for. Do you know anyone? And I just turned it into a game and a hunt.
- [21:29]
B
It was like a puzzle that you.
- [21:30]
A
Were in the puzzle puzzle. And you know what? This is where I got to see my relentlessness and my grit at work. The thought of me not finding it was not an option in my brain. So you land a job, I land a job. I get someone to believe in me. So I met probably with hundreds of CEOs, I was looking for a chief of staff role, a business development role, Just something to leverage my finance experience, where I could learn about operations. I didn't know how to lead a team. I didn't know how to manage a team.
- [21:54]
B
You bring in some skill set, but then you get to learn at the same time 100%.
- [21:58]
A
Here's my value add. But here's what I want to get out of it. And so I met with all these different leaders, and by the way, I.
- [22:02]
B
Want to stop on that. My value add, and I want to get something out of it. That's a really good way to think about how you go into a company, you know, where you have something to add and they have something.
- [22:13]
A
I mean, I think it's the way every leader should think about any job. Any person should think about jobs. We talk about this at hootsuite. A lot of you don't want to take a job where you know how to do 100% of it. That's not fun.
- [22:23]
B
There should always be learning.
- [22:25]
A
Always. Right. And so that how much depends on the size of the company, the trajectory they're on, how much they can invest to train. But I think a healthy amount is you should be able to give 60%, 70% of value to the business, to the role that you're coming in. But there should be a solid 30 plus that you're learning. And I love how it's all a.
- [22:41]
B
Math equation for you, but it's a.
- [22:44]
A
Healthy way to kind of think about it. Because also to retain the best employees, you want your team to learn and grow, because if they're not growing and learning with you, they're gonna. They should leave and go grow somewhere else.
- [22:54]
B
It's funny, when I took time off, I began to sort of deconstruct what I looked for in a job. And it was sort of A4 box. Can I learn was definitely one of them. Can I have impact? Like, can I bring value? Do I respect the people I work with and do I care? Which seems like four basic things. So hard, but it's actually hard to find. Okay, so now you. You get into this company.
- [23:14]
A
I get into this company not knowing kind of what I'm doing. But what did they do? They were an IT outsourcing firm. So it was like a 10,000 person IT outsourcing.
- [23:22]
B
So you go from Apollo big brand.
- [23:24]
A
Name to a company people don't know. Don't know. Wasn't that small, but nobody knew.
- [23:28]
B
Yeah, yeah. Not a household name.
- [23:30]
A
Not a household name. And IT outsourcing, which I knew nothing about, and I talk about this with our leaders as well, is people have this impression that somebody has to manage your career for you, and you are the manager of your career. And so if you want to get things done, you have to manage up, you manage down, you manage yourself. And so for me, I knew exactly what I Wanted to learn. And so I would schedule with my CEO at the time as I knew what I didn't know and I had no problem admitting it. So to me that was not something, that was an insecurity. I grew up in a home where it was very much okay to say, I don't know how to do this. And so I asked him, hey, can you meet with me at 7am because after days get crazy, I'm gonna come to you with a bunch of questions. And he was an incredible leader. He ended up becoming the CEO of Xerox and passed away a few years ago, but he said yes. And so every day at 7am Miriam, I would show up with my legal pad and my dumb questions.
- [24:20]
B
I mean, there is an element of relentlessness but also luck that you found somebody who is willing to respond to. Sort of your desire not to say, go read a book. It's all luck, but also hard work.
- [24:32]
A
You know what it is? It's being in a place where when a lucky opportunity presents itself, you're ready to grab it. Right. And if I didn't ask, he wasn't going to offer it proactively. Right. But I asked and he said yes.
- [24:43]
B
You had self determination and then it sort of worked out on the back.
- [24:46]
A
Yeah. And by the way, it goes back to what you were saying. You're going to ask 10 times. You only need one person to say yes. You only need one one to be a yes.
- [24:53]
B
But, but you know, let me just say there was 100 to the one. Of course, a hundred to the one.
- [24:57]
A
I was gonna just keep asking. So if he said no, I was gonna find someone who said yes. Right. But he said yes. And again, these questions I would ask Miriam. How do you email a customer? Was one of my questions. Right.
- [25:08]
B
Because whatever you didn't know, you were willing to ask.
- [25:11]
A
And so yeah, we were doing these billion dollar deals, but I didn't have to work with customers before.
- [25:17]
B
So this seems like this role worked out for you. What made you leave that role?
- [25:21]
A
We, you know, merged, IPO'd and it just was the, like we did what we were supposed to do and it was the natural kind of next step.
- [25:29]
B
Yeah, I had that at Gannett. You know, we got to a point where we could split the company and it was a natural transition point because it was a moment to go think about what I would do next. So you leave and so now you don't have a job.
- [25:39]
A
This unemployment theme runs a lot. And as we're saying it out loud, I'm starting To hear it more this time it was only for a month or two because Apollo called and said that they invested in Career Builder and they wanted me to come in and help drive the transformation. And so for that one, it actually ended up being a lot smoother and easier. And to be honest, mentally, I was prepared for another long haul because I was, okay, I've done this before. I know I can do it now.
- [26:06]
B
And so you went in not as CEO now.
- [26:08]
A
I went in as COO and president for the first few months and then got promoted.
- [26:14]
B
So I read that you said it took you a while to get your footing, right? Becoming CEO for the first time because you're 32. I mean, this is a rocket ship move for you and a female CEO in a tech company. By the way, I was a Gannett and we own Career Builder, so I have a view into that world. So, you know, pretty male dominated. So what was that like? And what did it mean to get your footing?
- [26:33]
A
You know, it's funny, and I see this with leaders now is the things that make you successful to get to a certain point aren't usually the things that'll make you successful at your next career moves. And so I was really good in one aspect of being a number two, and then all of a sudden, I'm now a number one, and I thought, okay, I'm gonna take the same skill sets that made me really successful as number two to be a CEO, and that just doesn't work. Also, the mentor that I really respected, that leader I was telling you about.
- [26:58]
B
The CEO, the one who went to.
- [26:59]
A
Xerox, that his style, he was in his late 50s, early 60s, wasn't gonna be the same style that worked for me. He was a really tall, huge guy, and I am not. And so I started implementing a lot of the things that I saw from him that I admired, that I thought worked for me. And it was just a ton of bricks dropping.
- [27:19]
B
Like, give me an example of that. I don't know what that means, so.
- [27:22]
A
I'll give you a small one. He would never use exclamation marks in emails. They were just kind of very businesslike, right? And for me, when I communicate, it was coming off cold. And I'm somebody who's not naturally a cold person, right? I have exclamation marks. I have emojis. But I'm thinking, I can't use emojis. I'm a CEO now. That's just.
- [27:43]
B
Do you use emojis now?
- [27:44]
A
I use emojis now for everything. And if you were to pull our nest. Everyone will tell you what my favorite emoji is. That's how much I use emojis. Right. But I had this thought of, I can't do that now I'm a CEO.
- [27:55]
B
So you had this perception of what a CEO should be in that house.
- [27:57]
A
I had this inner monologue that anything come out of my mouth, I was thinking, oh, is this what a CEO should do? Is this what a CEO should do? And I almost had double the job because I was doing the work and then editing second guessing yourself. And you know, I think a lot of leaders, when they get first time leadership roles or executive roles, they do this and I see them doing this and what are you doing? I think this is how I'm supposed to act. Stop thinking how you're supposed to.
- [28:18]
B
So is there a lesson in that that you would give somebody else, not even just to become a CEO, but like to take a new job? What did you take away?
- [28:24]
A
I would say three lessons. 1. What got you there? I would take a minute and assess what were the skills that got you there? And then ask your boss, what do they think are the skills that are going to make you successful in this new job? They're usually not the same. Right. So for example, when you're an individual contributor or just a manager of a leader of people, leaning in and helping them do the work and training them really works. When you become a leader of leaders, that's not scalable. You have to figure out, how do you become more of a coach and enable and empower and set direction and set strategy and drive through. Kind of here is the expectations. But your ability to influence any one thing materially declines. Right. You have to enable and hire the right team. Second thing is you can kind of throw your body at things in certain.
- [29:05]
B
What does that mean?
- [29:06]
A
Like, you can just do it yourself if your person's out or if you have somebody who's not an A player, you're like, oh, I'll pitch. But when you become a leader of leaders, your team is the only thing you have. And so you have to take the time to hire the right people, invest in your team, build the right team. And people don't talk about that enough. And then the third thing is just being authentic and authentic to who you are and what you need. I'll give you an example. You know, I came from this world of finance where taking a vacation was very kind of taboo. It meant you were lazy in some way, right? Yeah.
- [29:34]
B
You were supposed to sleep under your.
- [29:35]
A
Desk like it was just shameful. You don't talk about going on vacation. And I love when my team tells me they're going to Pilates class or a yoga class or. Or they're going for a walk. I can't talk right now. And at first when somebody tells me this, they're like, sorry. I'm like, don't be sorry. This is what you need for your mental sanity. You need to go on vacation. It's been months. I haven't seen you. Take a vacation. Take a vacation. And so as a leader, you kind of have to allow yourself the permission. What is it that you need to keep your energy and your machine running? If you need that workout every day, don't schedule over it. How do you set your boundaries and then help your team make sure they do that? That's all part of being a healthy human.
- [30:07]
B
Very, very different kind of CEO than most CEO.
- [30:09]
A
Yes.
- [30:10]
B
Do you think it's partly because of your age? Cause you understand this younger generation? Because I have to think that the younger generation that people say are entitled. And I just think that there's a miscommunication between generations.
- [30:22]
A
Oh, my God. Whole different podcasts. They're so not entitled.
- [30:24]
B
But yes, that they respond to your type of leadership in a much more sort of authentic way.
- [30:30]
A
I don't know if it's an age thing. I don't know if it's. I got to see different industries and kind of see what works and what didn't. I also, because I grew up in a household where I have much older parents, I have a very different perspective on life and how valuable it is and how short it is. And I just, you know, I think for me, getting that first CEO role made me realize life is short. I'm just going to be me.
- [30:50]
B
So in between hootsuite and Career Builder, you leave Career Builder, you go to hootsuite. There's a period of time there, right?
- [30:57]
A
Yep. I'm back to my unemployed journey. And this time it took me about 15 months. And I was really particular about what I wanted. I think one of the things I realized is I was looking for this trifecta of an industry that was going through change, where you can have impact going back to your four boxes and add value. And I was looking for a product that was really working and good and not just something that you said was good, actually good. And then I wanted a culture that was really unique. And one of the things I realized is time is your most precious investment. And I was waiting and willing to wait to find the right thing. And again, I had the luxury to take the 15 months. Not everybody gets to do that.
- [31:34]
B
Well, the luxury is one thing, but it's also the will to be in.
- [31:37]
A
That uncomfortable space about this all the time. Miriam, it's being comfortable in the uncomfortable. And the first three months it's fine, but you have no one to hang out with. Everyone's working six months, you're thinking, okay, well I thought this was gonna be a little easier. 12 months, you're thinking, oh man, wait, maybe I should just give it one is the means.
- [31:52]
B
The second one is the belief in yourself and sort of the stamina to be through that uncomfortable period.
- [31:57]
A
Yeah. And you have to kind of see it through. And again, it just goes back to, I just believe that this will happen and I just need to give it the time. But Honestly, by month 14, I'm thinking, okay, maybe I need to change some of my criteria. Maybe this isn't gonna happen. But you just keep believing and you know, then I saw and met hootsuite and saw kind of the change that Social is going to be driving.
- [32:16]
B
It's such a perfect job.
- [32:17]
A
Saw the product and the people in the nest. I mean they're just happy, passionate, team oriented humans. And when I met them I was like, okay, this is the trifecta. This is where I want to start.
- [32:27]
B
I mean, it's a great company and it's definitely where it's at.
- [32:30]
A
So it's exciting. So it worked.
- [32:32]
B
Okay, so now you're on your second CEO job at hootsuite. Now it makes you have to be on Social. I mean, I am amazed by how out there you are on various channels. TikTok, LinkedIn, Instagram. Not too many people at senior levels do their own. And you're out there and you're an introvert.
- [32:51]
A
It's not something that I would lean into naturally. I think it's scary. I think it brings a lot of fear. It's also, I'm not a public person. I grew up in an environment that's like from the ussr where you don't share a lot. You know, I grew up in the, this environment where I was brought up, where my parents said their phones were tapped, people were always listening. And so it's not a natural thing for me. I think one of the things that became really clear is there's 5 billion people around the world that are on social media. They're spending three and a half hours a day. And when you think about it, it's where I get all my knowledge from Customers. Imagine if I told you you're not going to read a single customer email, Miriam. No one in your company will answer the phone when a customer calls. Like you would never do that. And we're doing that as businesses and executives around the world with social media and it's just mind boggling to me. And so once I started getting into the data and you know, we sit in this place where I got to see all the social listening and analytics. I know what my customers like, I know what they're talking about me. I know why I'm getting referred, I know why I'm getting recommended. I know why they're renewing, expanding. I know how I'm getting net new. I mean that data is incredible. And so I am leaning into it and you know, took a minute. It's a little scary. You're, and I think you're fearless on it. You just kind of put your thoughts on it. But you know, I started with baby steps. I started with talking about the company, then I realized most people don't want to be sold to and we have this data that you can ask for something once after giving nine times. And so started editing the content, starting to find kind of what my niches were. And there's always this thought of who cares what I'm saying, right?
- [34:25]
B
But I mean the thing that strikes me is that you're like a lifelong learner. You are willing to come into something that's kind of uncomfortable, not familiar to you and then still dig in.
- [34:34]
A
And so are you. I remember when we were talking and you're like, you know, this Gen Z generation is doing this interesting stuff. I'm going to go to a Gen Z conference and I think at the time you told me you were like the only non Gen Z or at Gen Z. And for me they were hula hooping during breaks. So were you. So were you. And I like, what's the point of life if you're not learning? And for me, especially on that Gen Z topic, it's taking over the world, right? So when you think about stats in the workforce, 60% of all decision makers are now going to be either Gen Z or millennials. And they don't go on Google search, they go on social search. They communicate on social.
- [35:06]
B
When we travel, my daughter looks for recommendations of where to on social.
- [35:10]
A
Everything's on social. Their tribe is on social. They ask reviews on what software to buy from their friends on social. And so if you're not where your customers are and you know, a lot of times I hear a CEO say. But, you know, my customers aren't on TikTok if they're human. They're on social media. Okay.
- [35:27]
B
So I have some rapid fire questions for you, which you're gonna just be a natural lot, because, you know, you're.
- [35:32]
A
Rapid fire is the hardest. The queen of socially is the hardest.
- [35:36]
B
Okay, but you do social videos.
- [35:37]
A
I love it. It's also really awkward when you're doing these social videos and people think you're crazy and just talking to yourself. And they also walk around you kind of like they need to give you the perimeter to do this. It's. This is what it's like.
- [35:49]
B
This is what it's like. Okay. What's your karaoke or walk on song?
- [35:53]
A
Okay, so somebody asked me literally the other night at dinner. I normally wouldn't have one, but the first thought that came to my head. Head that night was, I will survive.
- [35:59]
B
Oh, my God. That is totally my song. Crazy, really. I mean, you know, because we did have to survive. No, but I do sing that song terribly. What's the food you'd bring to a potluck?
- [36:11]
A
This is embarrassing. I don't cook. But the first thing that came to mind, as you said it, is olives, which I know is not actually food, but.
- [36:16]
B
Okay, that's hysterical. You don't have to cook the food. You can just bring something.
- [36:20]
A
Olives came to mind. Just. They're really good.
- [36:21]
B
Okay, olives. What's an alternative career path you would have considered?
- [36:27]
A
I've always wanted to build teams. Like, I just don't know what I'm. I don't. I'm not saying I'm good at this, but I don't know what else I would be good at. All right.
- [36:35]
B
What are you reading, listening, or watching? I mean, in your spare time.
- [36:39]
A
Okay, so first of all, I am all over social media more than I should be because it's how I consume my news and my trends and get everything. I also read, like two to three books at the same time. And so I am reading something about wellness. I am reading. I love biographies. Anything that is nonfiction, I am a consumer of. And so I have probably two to three books going at all times.
- [36:59]
B
Is there one you want to tell us about?
- [37:01]
A
I just finished reading Outlive. It's an interesting one.
- [37:05]
B
What's something your colleagues would be surprised to learn about you?
- [37:09]
A
How much time I spent on social media?
- [37:12]
B
I think people say, oh, wait, I'm not surprised.
- [37:14]
A
Okay, fine. How about this? I sleep a lot.
- [37:16]
B
No, that I would be surprised about.
- [37:17]
A
I think I don't sleep. I love sleep. I think sleep is the healthiest thing you can do. And I sleep at least eight hours. I mean, I try eight to eight and a half every day. It is the thing. I prioritize over everything. I will skip a meal to get sleep.
- [37:29]
B
Okay, so when you walked in, we had this moment about how two words that we had to learn as kids are, you know, are fake. One is the world is fair and the other is balance. Right. Do you travel all the time? Are you ever home?
- [37:42]
A
I travel a lot.
- [37:44]
B
So home infrequently. No balance.
- [37:46]
A
You know, it's funny, and I think we agree on this. I don't. The word balance, I think, creates this just feeling that you're doing something wrong because you somehow don't have some standard set by a third party of balance. I have balance for me. I set it for me. I'm doing the things that I enjoy. I feel a lot of gratitude to do what I do. You know, we talked about this, but I think there's two lotteries in life. The geography you're born to, and I didn't win that one. And then the parents you're born to, and I lucked out on that because then they took me to the geography that I can achieve things in. And I have had jobs because I've had to make money, and it was the important thing. And I grew up in a world where my parents had to work and where they work no matter if they liked it or not, because that's how you put food on the table. And so I have a lot of gratitude that I get to do the thing I love to do. And so balance to me is sometimes I work weekends and sometimes I don't work Fridays.
- [38:39]
B
Okay. So I can't thank you enough for coming on. I know how busy you are. I know how you're always all over, so I so appreciate that. Is there one piece of advice you want to leave listeners with?
- [38:49]
A
Yes. Yes. Whatever it is that you wanna do, just go do it.
- [38:53]
B
Just go do it. It's like Nike.
- [38:55]
A
Just go do it. It's like Nike. Just follow what Nike's saying. And sometimes it's scary, and the more you spend time on the scary, it just gets into your brain. So just one action, one step. Write the email. Take the phone call. Just do it.
- [39:07]
B
Okay? Everyone needs to follow Irina and watch and learn. Thank you so much for being here today.
- [39:12]
A
Thank you. The Messy Parts podcast is hosted and created by Mariam Banakaram, produced by Andrew.
- [39:27]
B
Lerner and Maral Yousefi.
- [39:28]
A
With help from Deborah Goetz and Natasha Lerner. This podcast is recorded at Newsstand Studios in Rockefeller Center. Audio engineering and editing by Joseph Hazen, Sam.