Judith Curr: Prince, Tarot Cards, Chat GPT and changing the plan

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Messy Parts

Episode: Judith Curr: Prince, Tarot Cards, Chat GPT and Changing the Plan

Host: Maryam Banikarim
Guest: Judith Curr
Date: August 11, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid and wide-ranging conversation with Judith Curr, President & Publisher of Harper One at HarperCollins. Renowned for her transformative impact on the publishing industry, Judith delves into her unconventional path from rural Australia to the pinnacle of U.S. publishing, the challenges of navigating a male-dominated industry, her persistent curiosity, and her willingness to embrace both spirituality and innovation—including tarot cards and AI tools—in her business planning. She shares “the messy parts” behind her extraordinary career, revealing the twists, setbacks, instincts, and bold pivots that have defined her journey.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life, Entrepreneurial Spirit & the Australian Years

[01:50-06:16]

• Rural Roots: Judith grew up one of seven children on a farm in rural New South Wales, Australia, where creativity and earning her own money started young—picking peas, fruit, even selling scrap metal.
  • “I always earned my own money, even though it was a tiny bit." – Judith Curr [02:20]
• First Jobs: After high school, she pursued a cadetship at Grace Brothers but shifted to selling cologne to pharmacies when she wanted a car.
  • “I got a job as a traveling salesperson… It solves two things. I get another job and I get a car.” – Judith Curr [03:30]
• Lessons for Job Seekers: Emphasizes not waiting for the perfect job—embrace opportunities and zig-zag paths.
  • “Don’t expect everything to be everything for you… If you’re always waiting for everything to solve all your problems at once... it’s going to take you a really long time.” – Judith Curr [05:30]

2. Moving Up and Leaning In

[06:16-09:42]

• Advancing in Publishing: Became marketing manager, then publisher, by volunteering for new roles.
• Fearless Volunteering: Judith attributes her success to “always looking for what’s around the corner,” aligning her talent for curiosity and newness with publishing’s changing demands.
  • “If you aren’t looking forward to what’s around the corner, or if you aren’t looking around, then you can get stuck.” – Judith Curr [07:09]
• Self-Investment: Hired a coach at a time when it wasn’t common, investing in specific skill gaps to break out of career stagnation.
  • “You were willing to invest in yourself… financially, right… That sense of being willing to invest in yourself is a really interesting good lesson early on.” – Maryam Banikarim [08:15]

3. The Big Move: Australia to New York

[09:07-10:25]

• Felt “tapped out” in Australia and recognized there was no more room for advancement; time for a leap.
  • "I can't walk up these stairs anymore... This is not my beautiful life." – Judith Curr [09:08]
• Used a feeling of dissatisfaction as a sign to make a major change and move to New York.

4. Championing Diverse Voices in Publishing

[10:25-13:34]

• Spotting the White Space: Early to recognize and support Hispanic and other underrepresented voices.
• Publishing Authentically: Motivated by her own experience of limited representation growing up, Judith built imprints centered on stories from diverse communities.
  • “When you start to find books where you identify as your culture in them, it’s really meaningful.” – Judith Curr [11:03]
• Innovative Team-Building: Expanded the Amistad imprint from 5 to 25 books a year, ensuring editorial and marketing staff reflect the communities they publish.
• On Market Pressure & Growth: Despite book bans and increased scrutiny, continues to “lean in” to diverse publishing because “that is the future.” – Judith Curr [13:09]

5. Navigating Setbacks, Innovation & the Messy Parts

[14:04-17:18]

• Facing Resistance: Not always welcomed as an innovator, handled being given lower roles during reorganizations by focusing on opportunities, not ego.
  • “If I behave like it’s a setback, then everyone will know. But if I don’t… let’s see where the opportunity is.” – Judith Curr [16:34]
• Creating Opportunity Out of Setback: Turned a perceived demotion into the chance to found Atria Books, a major imprint.
• Support Systems: Stresses importance of a support network of women sharing challenges and advice: “We get to have these moments between us to say, oh, that sucks, but maybe you should try this.”

6. Standout Stories: Publishing Prince

[17:41-19:09]

• Meeting Prince: Shares the surreal experience of working with Prince, including listening to unreleased music while driving around Beverly Hills in Prince's car.
  • “He wanted to play you some music... And then we drive around Beverly Hills at sunset playing me music he had dreamt the night before.” – Judith Curr [18:57]
• Realities of Rejection: Discusses the constant risk of investing in books that might not sell and enduring professional heartbreak, but focusing on the work and moving forward.

7. Innovation in Publishing: Nomad Editions

[21:36-25:22]

• Nomad Editions: Launches a portable, Japanese-inspired paperback format—born from seeing where young readers spend time in bookstores.
  • “If I can’t get them to come out of the bookstore to buy my book, why don’t I just go into that corridor where manga and things are?” – Judith Curr [22:07]
• Brand Storytelling: Iterative branding process, balancing creativity and discipline, and seizing the “white space” between stagnant industry norms and emerging reader habits.

8. The Secret, Belief, & Spirituality

[25:24-27:45]

• Publishing ‘The Secret’: Judith reflects on bringing the bestseller to market and internalizing—perhaps always intuitively holding—its lessons of belief and manifestation.
  • “Ask, believe, receive. So ask clearly what you want from the universe. Believe that you will get it and be willing to receive it.” – Judith Curr [25:35]
• Superpower: Identifies her superpower as a willingness to go first, to see what could work, and to bring others along even when they can't yet see her vision.

9. Tarot, AI, and Planning for Change

[27:45-30:49]

• Fusing Logic and Intuition: Judith uses tarot cards for annual business planning, interpreting the symbolism via ChatGPT and Perplexity AI for guidance.
  • “I will pull a tarot card and ask for some direction… I took a photograph of those cards and put them into ChatGPT.” – Judith Curr [28:43]
  • “Be open to the changes you know are coming through AI, etc. Make sure you trust yourself and your instincts… have a structure.” [29:10]
• Advice: Reminds listeners to value both intuition/spirituality and analytical tools—the very human elements in business.

10. Relationships & Community-Building

[30:56-33:19]

• Power of Relationships: Importance of relationships in publishing, networking across generations, and making space for others—modeled recently through a multi-year art project event for interns, students, and artists.
  • “We. Everyone can model for other people what networking is about, and invite them in and not get caught up into generational differences.” – Judith Curr [33:07]

11. Defining Success and Power

[33:34-33:58]

• Judith’s Definitions:
  • Success: “To be happy, to be kind and generous. To have good friendships and to have good partnership. And to be curious.”
  • Power: “The bravest thing you can do is to own your own power and use it for the betterment of others.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I can't walk up these stairs anymore... This is not my beautiful life.” – Judith Curr [09:08]
• “Don’t expect everything to be everything for you… If you’re always waiting for everything to solve all your problems at once... it’s going to take you a really long time.” – Judith Curr [05:30]
• “If you forget the idea, that wasn’t a really good idea.” – Judith Curr [24:28]
• “We all should operate together… Many people probably haven’t had that experience, but I had. So, I’ve always had that in the back when I’m thinking.” – Judith Curr [11:03]
• "You cared equally about her characters with or without their clothes." – Judith Curr, on publishing Zane [12:13]
• “Every book is somebody’s passion… there’s a lot of unrequited love around in publishing.” – Judith Curr [27:04]
• “Make a plan, write it down and then you can change the plan. But if you don’t have the plan, you’re changing nothing.” – Judith Curr [34:59]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Origin story & entrepreneurial childhood: [01:50-05:15]
• Leaning into new opportunities & skills: [06:16-09:07]
• Recognizing a need for change & moving to NYC: [09:07-10:25]
• Championing diverse voices & building imprints: [10:25-13:34]
• Navigating setbacks & creating Atria Books: [14:04-17:18]
• Working with Prince: [17:41-19:09]
• Innovating with Nomad Editions format: [21:36-25:22]
• Lessons from ‘The Secret’: [25:28-26:38]
• Tarot cards & AI for business planning: [28:43-30:49]
• Networking, mentoring, and building community: [30:56-33:19]
• Rapid fire and final advice: [34:00-35:12]

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Rapid Fire and Final Lessons

[34:00-35:16]

• Walk-On Song: “Purple Rain”
• Potluck Dish: “Probably a salad”
• Alternative Career: Cosmetics or inventions
• Currently Reading: Is the River Alive? by Robert McFarlane
• Surprising Fact: Judith is sometimes shy
• Last Advice: “Make a plan, write it down, then change the plan.”

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Tone & Takeaway

Judith Curr’s journey is both practical and spiritual, deeply honest yet persistently optimistic. She exemplifies resilience, humility, a love of risk, and the power of always looking for the “white space” others ignore. Her advice: don’t wait for perfect, always have a Plan B, lead with curiosity, nurture relationships, and don’t fear the mystical—or modern tools—to guide your future.

Transcript

[Judith Kerr]

I thought, I can't walk up these stairs anymore. I don't think I can have another day of walking up these stairs. Coming into this office. Not physically, mentally, not physically, mentally. And mind you, I was a director at that stage. She would always say, don't forget to turn off the lights and make sure you shut down the photocopier. And it's like, this is not my beautiful life. This is not gonna be my life anymore. So it's always something, you know, insignificant, but really that is the embodiment of everything else that you've been thinking in the back of your head. And now it's material.

[Marianne Banakaram]

It's like a sign.

[Judith Kerr]

It's like a sign.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I'm Marianne Banakaram, host of the Messy Parts podcast. Today we have on Judith Kerr. She's a force in the publishing business. She's published the Pope Prince, the Secret, Isabella Allende. There is amazing range in her repertoire. She's the president and publisher of Harper One at HarperCollins. But what you're going to hear about her is that moment where she knew she needed to switch jobs. She says, I, I just couldn't imagine walking up those steps again. And you're always going to find out that she's very practical, but also not just spiritual. She actually uses tarot cards to make her business plan. This is a messy story that you're going to want to hear. We've known each other for a long time. I know that you grew up in a large family and a farm in Australia, in a rural part of Australia. And I read that you went from there to working the counter, doing door to door cologne sale and then pivot somehow to working in publishing and then ending up working at the top of the publishing business here in New York, you know, the pinnacle of the publishing world and a tall skyscraper next to the World Trade Center. So how did that journey come about for you?

[Judith Kerr]

Bit by bit. So I did as you said, grew up on a farm in rural New South Wales. I started school in a one teacher school in the country and then when our family decided to move closer to the city, although still in the rural area, the school had to close because they lost all their students, because they were all our family, basically.

[Marianne Banakaram]

How many in your family?

[Judith Kerr]

Seven children, including me. But we're seven years between the eldest and the youngest, so we're basically all one complete generation. When you're in the middle of a large family and there's lots of chaos and lots of things going on and you like being outside, you come up with Your own activities. So I used to, you know, pick peas and strawberries and fruit and stuff like that from when I was seven. So I always earned my own money, even though it was a tiny bit.

[Marianne Banakaram]

But you picked them to sell, not just, like to bring home.

[Judith Kerr]

I picked them to be paid for the amount of time I spent picking them.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Oh, I see. So you were an entrepreneur from a very young age?

[Judith Kerr]

Yes. There was a lady down the road when we moved closer to the city who would buy junk, you know, wire and stuff like that. So I used to sell her things, including the engine block out of my brother's car that he had left there for a couple of weeks. I thought it was discarded. And I knew you got a lot of money for scrap metal. That was very profitable for me, but not so much for him.

[Marianne Banakaram]

And so then how did you go from that to even doing cologne sales?

[Judith Kerr]

So I went to high school, and then instead of going to university or college, I did a cadetship at Grace Brothers, a big department store chain in Australia. And I decided after two and a half years of that course, it was heading in a direction that was not that I did not want. And I also was looking for a car, and I didn't have any money to get a car. So I got a job as a traveling salesperson selling cologne to pharmacies. It wasn't door to door.

[Marianne Banakaram]

How did you know at that young age that that wasn't enough for you?

[Judith Kerr]

Well, I never actually thought of things in those terms. I don't think of things as kind of like a race to the top. I feel like it's a sort of a journey that zigs and zags. And at the time, you know, I wasn't that happy in that job, and I wanted a car. And I saw an ad that was advertising for a trainee traveling salesperson. And I thought, well, that solves two things. I get another job and I get a car. And then, of course, I was quite good at selling things.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You were clearly selling from seven.

[Judith Kerr]

Yes, I was. So the perfumes that I was then promoted into was Christian Dior cosmetics and perfume. And I was sent to Paris to sort of have a look around for a little bit. So I had a skill set that was sort of publicity and promotions and things like that. And then I had come to the end of my satisfaction with that job. I had met someone who worked in publishing. And then, as luck has it, I saw an ad in the paper for a publicity and promotions manager, American Publishing Company with an English branch that was setting up An Australian office. And they were looking for somebody who had publicity and promotions experience. And so that was my bridge. I was the third person employed. So it wasn't like they had all these people with years of experience in publishing. And I happened to satisfy their need to have somebody who could go out and promote the company. And then, you know, one thing led to another and that's how I got my start in publishing.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You and I know lots of young people looking for a job in what is a pretty difficult job market currently. When you think back to that part of your story, is there a tip or a lesson that you would take from that that we could give to somebody sort of who's starting out?

[Judith Kerr]

Don't expect everything to be everything for you. So if you're really desperate to have a particular kind of job, really, that would be wonderful. But if that's not available to you, then take another job and then work your way towards that job or to that goal or you'll find satisfaction elsewhere. But if you're always waiting for everything to solve all of your problems all at once and this is for everything, then it's going to take you a really long time.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So don't wait for perfect.

[Judith Kerr]

No, definitely not. And then you have lots of fun too, which is really nice. So I got to do lots of fun things with those jobs. I could drive around, go places, meet people.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Okay, so fast forward, you get into publishing. I think I read you were in publishing in Australia for a long stretch before you came to New York.

[Judith Kerr]

I was 17 years.

[Marianne Banakaram]

17 years. So what kept you there for so long?

[Judith Kerr]

As I said, when I started, there were three people and I was the publicity delegate. But then over the next 10 years, the company grew and every time they needed a person in a new position, I would put my hand up.

[Marianne Banakaram]

And you always volunteered?

[Judith Kerr]

I always volunteered. So I became the marketing manager. Then it was. The time came we needed to do Australian original publishing. I volunteered to do that. And then that's really what the big shift was for me when I became the publisher working my way into doing original publishing in Australia.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So many people we know need permission or are uncomfortable leaning into something that's new. Here you are volunteering for things that one could argue you don't have experience in. Specifically, what do you think it is about you that has you leaning in, in that moment versus pulling away?

[Judith Kerr]

If you aren't looking forward to what's around the corner, or if you aren't looking around, then you can get stuck.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So you were always looking around the corner.

[Judith Kerr]

I have an ability, in a way, to see what's around the corner in Sydney. It's a small town, relatively speaking. And if you're in publishing, it's always about the new. If you're in cosmetics and you've got new ranges of perfume coming out, it's always the new story.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So.

[Judith Kerr]

So I guess my desire for the new or to see what's going on is perfectly aligned with the skills you need to be a publisher, although not ones that people articulate.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So bring us to you. Come to New York. What is that like?

[Judith Kerr]

The thing is, I was working at publishing it in Australia, and I decided that I didn't want to do that anymore. And I thought, well, how can I get people to see me as something other than a publisher in a small town? So I hired somebody to tutor me, like what now would be called a coach, because I needed some skill sets.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Wow, you got a coach early when that wasn't a thing?

[Judith Kerr]

Yes. I didn't want to learn all the other bits and pieces by going to school. I only wanted to know specific things.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You were willing to invest in yourself. I mean, financially, right. It's not like you came from tons of means. But you said, you know what? In order for me to get ahead, I'm going to spend a little money on myself and find somebody to coach me to get to the next step. That sense of being willing to invest in yourself is a really interesting good lesson early on.

[Judith Kerr]

It pays off ultimately.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So when you were describing the transition from Australia to the US you said you knew that it had sort of run its course.

[Judith Kerr]

How did you know that the person who was my boss was always going to be my boss? There was never going to be any position for me in that company that I could see after being there all that time and every other company in publishing that I looked at at that moment, they had exactly the same scenario. And I didn't think I would wanted to do that anymore.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So you were sort of tapped out.

[Judith Kerr]

In terms of where you could go. Yeah. And I thought, I can't walk up these stairs anymore. I don't think I can have another day of walking up these stairs. Coming into this office, not physically, mentally, not physically, mentally. And mind you, I was a director at that stage. She would always say, don't forget to turn off the lights and make sure you shut down the photocopier. And it's like, this is not my beautiful life. This is not gonna be my life anymore. So it's always something, you know, insignificant. But really, that Is the embodiment of everything else that you've been thinking in the back of your head, and now it's materialized.

[Marianne Banakaram]

It's like a sign.

[Judith Kerr]

It's like a sign, okay, so you.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Come to New York. I mean, clearly you've always been curious and willing to work hard.

[Judith Kerr]

Yes.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You come to New York. You and I met because you published the book of and correct Univision, where I was the chief marketing officer. And I remember at the time saying to you, most people are not aware of the opportunity that the Hispanic market represents because you were quite early in that space. And we had this conversation about what it was about you that saw an opportunity when clearly the numbers demonstrated, but most people were not leaning in. You've done a whole career out of that, frankly. I mean, if I think about where you are now, HarperCollins, you actually publish a lot of diverse voices.

[Judith Kerr]

Yes.

[Marianne Banakaram]

What do you think took you to that?

[Judith Kerr]

I think, you know, going back to having that hectic household. So I've always liked to find the space where the other people aren't.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You found Diverse Voices early on, and now we're at a time where, while obviously there's a huge market for diverse voices, we've seen that play out. It's also a time where diverse voices are sort of under pressure. Right. Books are being banned. What is that experience like for you? Because you were early and you sort of rode that wave because you got there first in some ways. But also I think, because there was a respect that you had early on, which I think mattered. I know in Univision that really mattered for the community.

[Judith Kerr]

I don't really think of it as a wave. I think it as like, there are many people in the world and we all should operate together. I grew up in small Australia, and at that time, there weren't a lot of books that we had access to, or most of them would have some in English Girl in them, you know, so when you start to find books where you identify as your culture in them, it's really meaningful. And many people probably haven't had that experience, but I had. And so I've always had that as back of when I'm thinking, like, okay, I'm going to set up this imprint Atria. What am I going to do? I'm going to have four houses. I'm going to have thrillers in this one. I'm going to have romance in this one. I'm going to have books for African American or people of color in this one. And I'm gonna have Hispanic voices in this One, because collectively that will be representative of the American marketplace and also of the population in the workforce. Like, here's some more other markets that people aren't even focusing on. And I published a woman called Zane. She was called Zane at the time. They were a bit erotica. And when I first published her, it was amazing. Some of the bookstores would keep them under the counter.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Oh, erotica under the counter.

[Judith Kerr]

Yeah. You cared equally about her characters with or without their clothes.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So I like that line right there.

[Judith Kerr]

But we sold like 3 million copies of her books. And up until then, people didn't think that there was a very large readership for African American authors or readers anyway. So I've been continuing to do that ever since. And now since I came to HarperCollins, they took over the Armstadt imprint and put it into my Harper One group. And when I was there, there was five books a year. And now we're publishing 25 books a year. That's a significant growth, which is a significant growth. And we have four editors working in the team and also two marketers that are specifically from their cultures, that are representative because they know what to do, they know how to communicate. In the same way everybody sends me any book written by an Australian author.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So at a time where many might be feeling pressure and pulling away, you're not only not pulling away, you're leaning in.

[Judith Kerr]

And that is the future.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Are people still open to the, to the sales of these books or has that.

[Judith Kerr]

Yes.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So that has.

[Judith Kerr]

Yeah.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Did it ever feel uncomfortable?

[Judith Kerr]

I always have a kind of a plan B or an escape hatch. I always have that. Well, if this does not work, life is not over for me or with publishing. So if, if the Hispanic market doesn't grow big enough, well, then I'll just add other things. Where are the opportunities going to be?

[Marianne Banakaram]

It's interesting. You are sort of always hedging your bet. And I definitely am somebody who's always had a plan B and a C. I'm sort of waiting for things to go wrong. Publishing is a tough business and one that has historically been the same for a very long time. I mean, I had a stint as a book publisher, which is hard to even believe now. Looking back at Macmillan, it was not a fast moving or highly innovative business. And yet you've managed to innovate in lots of different ways while the business was being completely disintermediated. How was that?

[Judith Kerr]

People don't really notice at the time that you're doing it that it's innovating. They might think oh, well, here she is. She's got another idea. Okay, off you go. Do that. See what happens. And that's always been what I've been able to do, because I'm not going to be able to progress at the same rate as everybody else because I don't have the same advantages or come from the same set of experiences. But I can find another place and another way to do it. And if I'm the only one doing it, then people like that. They like people to be innovative, but. But they don't necessarily want to be the innovator because then you need to have a plan B.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Let's dig into the messy parts of that. Because both you and I have spent a lot of time in corporate jobs. I mean, yes, there are definitely bosses who like people who have new ideas, but there's also lots of politics involved.

[Judith Kerr]

Oh, yeah?

[Marianne Banakaram]

Yeah. I mean, you know, I remember somebody once saying to me, you have too many ideas. You're making the rest of us look bad. How did you navigate that? Because it's not so easy moving up the ranks in a corporate job.

[Judith Kerr]

Yeah. And as I said before, it's not always in a straight line. So. So when I came to the U.S. i came and worked for Ballantine Books, which was part of Random House, but it was the old Random House. And I had left Bertelsmann in Australia. And when I left, there was sort of a little kerfuffle. Cause they didn't really want me to go. And so they tried to people not to employ me here, but.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Oh, nice.

[Judith Kerr]

Okay. That was nice.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Well, I thought, well, this is the definite messy part.

[Judith Kerr]

Exactly. It toughened me up, though, because I thought, okay, well, I go to America, and if it doesn't work out, it doesn't matter. Because these people who have invited me here, I trusted and liked and. And knew very well, and they'll see me safely home. And at the end, it wasn't necessary, but I did go. And so I left there and went to work for Simon and Schuster. I was hired in one position, and then there was a restructuring, and so I was given another position which wasn't necessarily equal to the one that I had signed up for, was lesser. You know, the paper says in all this shuffle, then cur's the loser. So, okay, well, I'll show you that that won't be the case.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You could have been hurt and, like, moved on. But you actually dug in and said, I'll show you. What are those moments like? Right. Because we know lots of people who go through this. And I think you and I, we're fortunate because we actually have a support group of women who gather for lunch. We get to have these moments between us to say, oh, that sucks, but maybe you should try this. Or this is how you pick yourself back up. What's a lesson we can give to somebody who's maybe experiencing that, like mid career?

[Judith Kerr]

Don't be too impatient. So it's like, okay, so this is a little setback. If I behave like it's a setback, then everyone will know. But if I don't, I accept this as sort of like, this is an opportunity in which it was a really huge, unseen opportunity as I got to set up a new imprint which I made into Atria Books, which is very successful. It's really like, okay, so this may appear not to be a great opportunity, but let's see, let's see where the opportunity is. And no one said, you can't make it big, you can't make the job big, or you can't make the imprint big.

[Marianne Banakaram]

But you didn't take it personally. And you had this incredible ability to put your ego aside in that moment.

[Judith Kerr]

In that moment.

[Marianne Banakaram]

That's kind of an amazing thing that you were able to do because you're right that you were able to find the opportunity in what might have seemed like a setback at the onset. So. So you have published some amazing titles. Every time I introduce you to a friend, I say the Secret. She did the Pope's Memoir. Right. I mean, Jodi Picoult, Isabel Allende. There's just so many. So is there a story in particular about somebody you published that you wanna tell us about?

[Judith Kerr]

Yes, I wanna tell you about my Prince story.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Okay.

[Judith Kerr]

I've always been a fan. I was in New York. We got to go to the Of Diamonds and Pearls concert in 2000, I think, but way, way up in the gods, looking way, way down on the stage and thought that was amazing. And then fast forward, there was an opportunity to bid on a book of 21 nights of him being in Oz in O2. So I had to go and have a meeting with him. And he was in Miami, he was going to be performing down there. So we went to the door to Knocked on the door. You can hear the piano playing and then you hear clomp, clomp, clomp, clomp. And the door opens and there's Prince right there. And he sat way at the end of one part of the table and I sat down the other. And a few people in between, we start talking, going over a few Things and he gets up and sits next to me and then we go through the project. I end up publishing that project called 21 Nights. So during the publishing process, he invited me over to his house. He was staying at Beverly Hills. And he said, well, I wanted to play you some music. They come out into the garage because the sound system's better. And I assume, I thought we were just gonna sit in the garage, but we got into his beautiful. We're getting backs out. And then we drive around Beverly Hills at Sunset playing me music he had dreamt the night before.

[Marianne Banakaram]

In the car.

[Judith Kerr]

In the car.

[Marianne Banakaram]

That's amazing.

[Judith Kerr]

That was amazing. And I thought, now just stay cool. And then, you know, we went on and the book became a New York Times bestseller. So it was like amazing.

[Marianne Banakaram]

They don't always work out right? You bid on books. I mean, there's rejection along the way. How do you deal with that part of the job? Because I read that you say the publishing business, you know, there's ups and downs all the time.

[Judith Kerr]

All the time. So you could spend two weeks of you and your team making a great offer for a book, and there'll be 14 other people in the auction, which is how they're often sold. So 13 other people are going to feel exactly like you do, unless you're the one that gets it. And then if you're the one that gets it for a day or two, you might think, well, who knows the most here? Me or those other 13 people? And the thing about book publishing is that no one knows. I mean, you have to just like build the better box. You have to make sure that everything you can control is controlled. Every decision that has to be made is made, and not leave any of those things to chance. But then once it goes on sale and is published, who knows what's gonna happen? You know, the space shuttle might blow up the day your talented debut author is on the Today show, which actually happened to me. So then you lose those opportunities, but then it doesn't matter. You move on to the next thing and then you'll have a book that you published 15 years ago. Now it's a movie, now it's become a big hit. So it's also how the zeitgeist works and what part of the chain of publishing you're working in. So not everything has to be a New York Times bestseller. Not everything has to sell millions of copies to be worthwhile and needs to exist.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Is there a messy part or a failure that really taught you something along that journey?

[Judith Kerr]

Yes, but I'm not going to tell you. No, no, there's a few. They're always when you just pay more than what you could possibly earn back. You got too competitive in an auction environment. The book might have been delayed. Covid may have turned up all of those things. There's so many, you know, precarious moments, and sometimes books that don't work really don't work.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So let's talk about some of the innovative things that you've done, because that's what you make me think about, right? I mean, I'm doing a podcast. People say there's a million podcasts. It's like books. There's a million books. And somebody said to me, it doesn't matter if your podcast is good, it just matters if it's controversial.

[Judith Kerr]

Controversial with who?

[Marianne Banakaram]

Well, I don't know. People have lots of opinions, as you know, and they love to tell you these things, like, as a way to just remind you that you should become smaller. But we don't do that for each other. So let's talk about some of the things that you've done, ways of innovating in the publishing business. Like you have a new format that you're trying to do.

[Judith Kerr]

I'm very excited.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So let's talk about that.

[Judith Kerr]

Okay, so the Nomad editions, they're called, like, the Nomad is the ultimate traveler. So we have an imprint which I started called Harper Via, which are books in translation, books that take you anywhere. So now with Nomad Editions, are books that you can take anywhere. Really? Why? It popped into my head we published Japanese books in translation, doing very nicely. They're a hot thing now. Now all of a sudden, everybody wants.

[Marianne Banakaram]

To buy, so why are they a hot thing now?

[Judith Kerr]

Anime manga, okay, so if you're seeing all the kids are in those parts of the bookstore and it's like, well, I can't get them to come out of the bookstore to buy my book. Why don't I just go into that corridor where manga and things are, and I'm going to publish into that same format that these books are published into in Japan, which is a very cute, small, very portable little paperback, beautiful paper, nice typeface, has a little jacket, has a little belly band. So great to undress when you're on Instagram. And then there's a little surprise on the paperback side. And instead of doing those books just out of copyright books, we're doing the contemporary books that we have already published in one format. So they've already. We already know they're good. We already know that there's a market for them. We've already got a lot of the groundwork done, so why don't we just bring them out again in this gorgeous little portable format? And now we build the brand around that. And the first ones are coming in November.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So this year.

[Judith Kerr]

This year, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought of it at the beginning of the year.

[Marianne Banakaram]

That's pretty good.

[Judith Kerr]

Yes. And one of the young women at work who reads Japanese, she said, why don't we call it Nomad? I said, that's a good idea. So we call it Nomad Editions. And then I was coming back from London and. And I was thinking, like, maybe we should put roller skates on the letters or back straps on the M. But then that was all cheesy. And then I watched the Madame Clicquot film and the very last scene is her stamping a comet onto the top of her champagne bottle, which was her famous vintage. And I thought, that's what we need. We need a comet on the O of Nomad. So now we've got a logo, but the comet is also the no man of the skies or of the universe. So now these are books that literally, through heaven and earth, they can go anywhere.

[Marianne Banakaram]

In telling the story, you're making me think that you're a story hunter, which is, I think, the way that you described yourself, and forever a marketer. Like, you're just thinking through that lens constantly about the book because you have to have a good story, but you also need people to hear about it and actually consume it.

[Judith Kerr]

And we're printing them all in Malaysia and now we're sending them to all the English language markets at the same time from that centralized place, so they can go on sale in all the different countries pretty much at the same time.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Is it hard to sell in these innovative ideas? I mean, now you're kind of the boss, but I mean, has it been hard?

[Judith Kerr]

Well, yes. Yeah. But what happens is that you don't forget the idea. If you forget the idea, that wasn't a really good idea. But then you think, oh, hang on a second, well, why don't we do this and then this and then that and then someone says this and then. And before you know it, you've got something. And also we're making rules around the brand and this goes for anything, so don't change it before you actually get started, otherwise you'll never get started. And so there's not. We don't have huge ambitions for it to begin with, but I could see exactly what can happen to this. It's a very good idea. It's a great format, and mass market isn't selling very well anymore. And they went very shabby and not very nice paper and too hard to read. But if you look at trends, and one of the things is that younger people like portable things. And then if all of these tech guys have spent fortunes getting something that you want to have in your hand, then it's sort of like, well, put down your phone and pick up a nomad, because it feels good, too.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So you're finding the white space again.

[Judith Kerr]

White space, yes, exactly.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You published the Secret, and it was a huge, huge hit.

[Judith Kerr]

Yes.

[Marianne Banakaram]

What did you learn in the process of publishing what was like, an iconic book in the publishing business, apart from the Secret? The Secret itself.

[Judith Kerr]

Oh. So it's very interesting because it's about, you have to believe. So ask, believe, receive. So ask clearly what you want from the universe. Believe that you will get it and be willing to receive it. It's about gratitude, really. So I was at Simon and Schuster at the time, and I had done this little deal with a West coast spiritual publisher, and they had said that they'd met this woman, Rhonda Verne, and she was making a documentary. It was like, you hold in your hand the secret to the universe. It's like, well, I want that.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Who doesn't want that?

[Judith Kerr]

Who doesn't want that? So that's how it began. And then Rhonda believes that her and I, she's Australian as well, ended up being in the US So we could work together.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Did you internalize the lessons of the Secret?

[Judith Kerr]

Yes, absolutely. I think I had them already, but I wasn't sure. I didn't know what it was.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So this belief in yourself, because you clearly have that at a young age, like a belief in yourself and the curiosity to see and. And want something and go for it.

[Judith Kerr]

Yeah. And often it would be the opposite. It's like, well, no one's going to go and do that. Then, okay, I better go and do that.

[Marianne Banakaram]

That's so interesting. Like, many people would see that and think, like, well, that just seems too difficult. But you're not thrown by things that are difficult.

[Judith Kerr]

No, but it'll go, by the way, if it's not meant to be.

[Marianne Banakaram]

It is a very spiritual view of, like.

[Judith Kerr]

And the more I'm around, the more I realize that that's actually been my superpower.

[Marianne Banakaram]

What is your superpower?

[Judith Kerr]

Well, it's like, here it is. I see how this could work, but one of the difficulties is that not everybody can see that. So you have to be willing to make sure that you can get people to come along with you. Or you can say, well, I'm just going to go in this direction. You can come around later. But that's what publishing is. Every book is somebody's passion is behind it. Now, that's why I was saying before, there's a lot of unrequited love around in publishing, which is why when you're a manager of people, you have to be able to deal with that. You have to honor that. That's the case. Because if you're gonna capitalize on people's passion, then you have to be willing to help them over their disappointments.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So as you plan ahead. Cause you're clearly a planner, which I am so not. What do you see down the path? Like, where are you going?

[Judith Kerr]

Where am I going?

[Marianne Banakaram]

Where are you going? Where are we all going? I'd like the secret to be unveiled right here.

[Judith Kerr]

It's funny you should say that, because we do have a new one by Rhonda coming out soon.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Well, when is hers coming?

[Judith Kerr]

It's coming in November. Oh, soon. Yeah. Well, I was thinking I need some exciting books in my list. I've got some very exciting ones coming up. And I just felt like I needed something else. And I'm thinking, thinking, thinking this. And I open the computer and there's an email from Rhonda, who I hadn't really spoken to for like over 12 months or so. And she had three books for me.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Three. Not just one?

[Judith Kerr]

Yeah, three. Not just one. So now, as we move into the 21st century, it's like, how do you change your form of communication? And how many words are you going to take to get the message across now than you would have 20 years ago? And it's less. The answer is less.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I want to ask how you maintain your curiosity, because you're clearly a very curious person. How do you nurture that and keep that?

[Judith Kerr]

I take nothing for granted. And every now and again, I know this sounds weird, I will pull a tarot card and ask for some direction.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Okay, sorry, we're going back to that. Wait, what? You're so logical, and yet you also have this side to you.

[Judith Kerr]

I have a friend and she reads my cards once a year. So she read the cards. So I put. Took a photograph of those cards and put them into ChatGPT and said, what does all this mean? What should be the guiding principle for the next 12 months? You know, I've got a birthday coming up. Let's think about that. So I shuffled the card and I got three, and one is the death card. Be willing for change. No, it's never scary. It's really about change. It's about leaving things behind so you can be open to opportunities and change. So there could not be a bigger year of change coming up. People working in publishing because of AI et cetera. The second card I got was the High Priestess, which is about having to trust yourself and trust your instincts, and also to remember that the instincts are just the combination of all the things you have learned through this long life. So trust that. And then the third one was the Empress. Now, the empress is the card of structure. So build a structure. Make sure that you've got things organized and lined up. So therefore, in reading those three together, my business plan is like, be open to the changes you know are coming through, AI et cetera. Make sure you trust yourself and your instincts and look outside and have a structure that people can know for when you bring about these things. So that's a good enough. I mean, I've read many, many, many business books that have similar kind of information, but they just don't do it through tarot. And I did put them into perplexity.

[Marianne Banakaram]

And was that any different than ChatGPT?

[Judith Kerr]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Many more sources.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I love that you're experimenting with AI.

[Judith Kerr]

So that's a way for me to be able to sort of say, bridge, like, the. The kind of, like, way out there with the way out there. AI is really about outsourcing your thinking. Maybe, but what happens to the human things like your intuition, your spirituality, they're the things that actually make you most human.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I want to come back to one thing, because I think a key part of the business, particularly the way you've grown, it is relationships.

[Judith Kerr]

Yes.

[Marianne Banakaram]

And so I think in an era of disconnection and where lots of the young generation, you know, the softer skills have been harder for them because of COVID What tips can we give about the importance of relationships? Because I would bet, and you can tell me I'm wrong, that a lot of these relationships that you've built over time or that, you know, you win in the auction actually comes down to that.

[Judith Kerr]

And also which authors will come to you sometimes. So last week we had an art exhibition, and it was six years in the making. It was for the covers for all of the Zora Neale Hurston estate. We'd commissioned 10 artists of color to do a portrait of Zora as they saw her while she was writing that particular book that they had. And a cover for it. And it had been a dream of the art director and myself to have an art exhibition. But that was in 2020, when there was Covid. And we couldn't do that last week. Finally we were able to have that exhibition. And coincidentally, on the Monday, and that was on Thursday. On the Monday, I gave a talk to the interns coming into HarperCollins. And then I was telling them this and that and said, oh, we're having an art exhibition. I told them the story because it took six years to get that done. So it's, like, amazing what you can do in six years. So I said, well, you guys should come. You're all welcome. We'll send you the invitation and the details. That afternoon, I also did a similar thing for the summer school publishing school at NYU. Anyway, 30 of them came, and half of them were interns, and half of them were students. And what the students really wanted to know was, how do they become interns? So I was able to introduce all the interns to all the students. And then the artists were there, and they were excited about being just, you know, in this great exhibition. So then the students got to meet the artists, and the artists got to kind of bask in the glory of being the center of that attention. And it was fun because there's a lot of energy from different generations. And one of the young women came to me and she said, this has been such a great event. It had really helped me with my networking skills. So basically, we. Everyone can model for other people, what networking is about, and invite them in and not to get caught up into generational differences and then just sort of say, well, here. Come to this thing. No pressure. It'll be fun. There's things for you to look at. There are people that you can meet and then help them meet each other.

[Marianne Banakaram]

The Messy Parts is about having successful people come on and talk about the messy parts of their journey. Because we have those conversations over lunch or drink or a walk. But, you know, it's not always out for everybody to hear. What do you think success is like? What does success mean to you?

[Judith Kerr]

To be happy, to be kind and generous. To have good friendships and to have good partnership. And to be curious.

[Marianne Banakaram]

And how would you define.

[Judith Kerr]

And have some money?

[Marianne Banakaram]

And how would you define power?

[Judith Kerr]

Well, that's interesting. Cause I know that women sometimes have an issue with power. But, you know what you have to do? The bravest thing you can do is to own your own power and use it for the betterment of others.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So I'm gonna go to rapid fire.

[Judith Kerr]

Right.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Do you have a favorite karaoke song or walk on music for when you get on stage?

[Judith Kerr]

Purple Rain. I have to say a food you'd.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Bring to a potluck.

[Judith Kerr]

Probably a salad.

[Marianne Banakaram]

An alternative career if you weren't a publisher.

[Judith Kerr]

Oh, I don't know. I would have. Maybe cosmetics. Maybe I would have invented something. I like making up inventions.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Well, this one's going to be easy for you. What are you reading, listening or watching? And you can just pick one if you want.

[Judith Kerr]

I know I'm going to tell you a specific one because I had nothing to do with its publication. And so I'm reading it as a reader and it's called Is the River Alive?

[Marianne Banakaram]

And who wrote that?

[Judith Kerr]

Which is Robert McFarlane. So it's a wonderful book which I highly recommend. And I gain nothing from giving you that recommendation except pleasure.

[Marianne Banakaram]

It's a freebie. What would people who know you well be surprised to learn about you?

[Judith Kerr]

That I am shy sometimes. I don't think they would know that.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I don't think they would know that either. So, last question. What is one last piece of advice that you'd like to leave for the listeners or viewers?

[Judith Kerr]

Make a plan, write it down and then you can change the plan. But if you don't have the plan, you're changing nothing. So make a plan, write it down, then change the plan.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Be willing to change the plan.

[Judith Kerr]

To be willing to change it, I'm.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Going with and I'm going to put tarot.

[Judith Kerr]

You know, the universe is guess as good as anyone's.