Parul Somani Was Holding Her Newborn When the Doctor Called with a Cancer Diagnosis. Then Came the Layoff.

Summary

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The Messy Parts – Episode Summary

Episode Overview

Guest: Parul Somani
Host: Maryam Banikarim
Date: April 27, 2026
Title: Parul Somani Was Holding Her Newborn When the Doctor Called with a Cancer Diagnosis. Then Came the Layoff.

This episode of “The Messy Parts” features a deeply honest and candid conversation between Maryam Banikarim and Parul Somani. Parul, whose impressive resume tracks MIT, Harvard, and Bain, describes how her seemingly linear, high-achieving life took several unexpected turns—with a breast cancer diagnosis while holding her newborn, and a subsequent professional layoff from a dream-mission job. The conversation delves into advocacy, resilience, purpose, cultural expectations, processing trauma, reinventing oneself, and the myth of control. Parul lays bare the “messiest parts” of her story, discussing how vulnerability, community, and active mindset shifts helped her find meaning and new professional purpose.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Double Crisis: NICU and Cancer Diagnosis

• Parul’s daughter is born via C-section and quickly transferred to NICU, causing immediate anxiety and helplessness for Parul and her husband.
• Parul highlights her instinctive advocacy, refusing to be separated from her baby during the emergency transfer:

  “They were saying that they were going to take her in an ambulance an hour away...and it was unfathomable to me that that would be a scenario...Finding those moments of advocacy...was something I could control.” (03:16)

• Five days later, Parul receives word that her newborn is healthy, only to face her own cancer diagnosis two days after returning home.
• The trauma of receiving a cancer diagnosis while holding her newborn is recounted as her “messiest moment possible”:

  “Holding my newborn baby and being diagnosed with breast cancer.” (34:29)

2. Generational & Cultural Influences on Advocacy and Openness

• Parul reflects on her upbringing in an Indian immigrant family, describing the cultural reverence for doctors and the resulting secrecy around illness.
• Parul’s mother was diagnosed with early-onset breast cancer when Parul was six, yet the topic remained taboo:

  “There’s a social expectation of being very secretive about it…Doctors are almost held on this elevated state.” (03:28)

• Parul contrasts her parents’ silence with her own transparency—choosing to blog openly about her diagnosis as a form of “rebellion” and a way to unburden herself:

  “I always respected it because it was my mom's story to tell. But I also felt the burden of that secret.” (05:47)

3. Immediate Coping and Processing the Diagnosis

• Parul describes “warrior mode” and the tension between hope and grounded realism:

  “I had complete conviction that I'm going to be okay because it was honestly just too painful to think of any alternate.” (10:49)

• Later, she references the concept of “grounded hope”—not blind optimism but a hope “anchored in reality”—from the book Super Survivors (11:06).
• Maryam and Parul discuss resilience as a muscle that can be exercised and developed:

  “You can learn resilience. Yes. It is an actual muscle that we can exercise and strengthen, but it takes time and intention.” (12:34)

4. Navigating Purpose, Control, and the Myth of the Linear Path

• Parul recounts how she followed traditional expectations—MIT, Harvard, Bain, then a tech startup—without clarity about what she truly wanted:

  “I was on a path that I didn't know where it would lead to...The decision to stay was optimizing for something important to me at that point.” (15:24)

• Discussion of prestige paths, their seductive pull, and the limits of strategic planning:

  “There's so much control in what you're describing...And then life throws you the curveball and you learn that is just not real.” (18:15)

• After cancer, Parul resumes work at a retail startup out of loyalty, then eventually pivots toward mission-driven work in genetics and cancer screening.

5. Layoff from a Dream Mission Job

• Parul candidly shares the shock and emotional fallout of being laid off from a role that perfectly aligned with her skills and personal mission:

  “This wasn't just getting laid off from a job, which is hard enough for anyone...the company had actually interviewed my entire family and created this entire video montage...playing on the TV in the office, like, on loop, like, as I’m being laid off.” (24:33)

• The deep sense of betrayal and shame experienced, including her instinctive reaction to empathize with the CEO delivering the news:

  “I ended up saying sorry to the CEO who’s laying me off because I couldn’t process my own…” (25:18)

6. Aftermath: Coping with Layoff & Finding a New Path

• Parul describes giving herself permission to take time after the layoff, despite the discomfort of being unemployed, especially during her 10-year business school reunion.
• Reaching out to selected friends becomes a repeat pattern in her coping process:

  “If you allow yourself to be vulnerable to select people—someone who might just be the shoulder you need to cry on, someone who might be the experience sharer...What I could do is check in on the people that I care about...” (29:01, 27:18)

• Action and information-seeking as ways to regain a sense of agency—mirroring her approach to cancer.
• Advice to others after layoffs: Understand your paperwork, push past shame, and reach out to others for empathy and information.

  "You almost have to actively intervene on yourself and not allow those feelings of shame...to prevent you from reaching out." (28:58)

7. Redefining Success and Building a New Career

• Parul becomes a keynote speaker, mindset coach, and author, focusing on “helping people, teams, companies navigate uncertainty and make hard choices in the face of change.” (32:52)
• She describes how finding her “ikigai” (the intersection of what you love, what you’re good at, what the world needs, and what you can be paid for) was a process, not an epiphany.
• The journey continues to be “messy,” with public speaking and publishing ambitions disrupted by COVID and multiple rejections by publishers:

  “The journey of writing a book has been five years in the making...I pitched it to traditional publishers and got rejection after rejection.” (34:09)

• Parul’s philosophy: "The good stuff’s in the mess. The learning is in the mess. The growth is definitely in the mess." (34:14–34:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the messiest moment:
  “Holding my newborn baby and being diagnosed with breast cancer.” —Parul (34:29)

• On cultural secrecy and advocacy:
  “It was unfathomable to me that that would be a scenario that any mother would be presented with.” —Parul (03:16)

• On the myth of the prestige path:
  “MIT, Harvard, Bain. These are all about prestige...it’s so tempting to go down that path.” —Maryam (16:15)

• On hope and resilience:
  “They all maintained what they coined 'grounded hope.' It’s not just blind hope…it embodies the term grounded that is anchored in reality.” —Parul (11:06)

• On layoffs and identity:
  “It feels so deeply personal. But it’s literally the protocol that we’re taught in business school about how it should work.” —Parul (26:18)

• On the myth of passion:
  “That early on in your career you need to find your passion and purpose.” —Parul (34:47)

• Advice for crisis of confidence:
  “Name what the hard thing is that they're facing...and not hold themselves back from sharing those feelings with people that love and support them. The more that we connect...the stronger and more resilient we become.” —Parul (35:08)

• On regrets:
  “There’s a reason the book is not called The Path of No Regret, because I actually don’t believe that we can live a life of no regrets...” —Parul (35:37)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:16] – Parul’s advocacy during newborn’s NICU transfer.
• [05:47] – Choosing openness over secrecy after diagnosis.
• [10:49] – Mindset and hope immediately after diagnosis.
• [12:34] – Building and learning resilience.
• [15:24] – On the influence of prestige and path dependency.
• [18:15] – Life’s curveballs destroying illusions of control.
• [24:33] – Emotional fallout from being laid off.
• [27:18] – Coping mechanisms after layoff: checking in on others.
• [29:01] – Advice for those recently laid off; the role of selective sharing.
• [32:52] – Parul’s new professional focus as speaker, author, coach.
• [34:09] – Messiness of the post-cancer, post-layoff journey.
• [34:29] – Quick fire: messiest life moment.
• [34:47] – Career myth: the quest for early passion.
• [35:08] – Advice for a crisis of confidence.
• [35:37] – On regrets and letting go.

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Final Takeaways

• Resilience is learnable—not an innate trait.
• Holding space for messy emotions is necessary.
• Openness and connection can transform personal crises into sources of growth for oneself and others.
• Even the most high-achieving, carefully scripted lives are vulnerable to total upheaval—and the process of making meaning from the mess is ongoing, nonlinear, and essential.
• “The good stuff’s in the mess.” (34:14)

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This episode is an unflinching look at what happens when life throws impossibly hard, “messy” challenges—and how, with time and self-compassion, these experiences can enrich, rather than derail, the search for meaning and fulfillment.

Transcript

[A]

I mean, how did that feel? He comes home, you tell him, like, what is that emotional rollercoaster?

[B]

Like, once he got home and once we talked about it, you know, I brought him into the room.

[A]

He.

[B]

He actually could tell right away that I had been crying. I just said straight out, I have breast cancer. His immediate reaction was, I can't do this without you. And I said, you're not going to have.

[A]

Picture this. You're 31, giving birth to your second child, and you're told that you have breast cancer. Pretty serious breast cancer. Today on the messy parts we're going to have on Parul Samani, she's talking about her journey as a high achiever. Mit, Harvard, Bain. And then this really big messy part, finding your way through that and actually then redefining your life. Not immediately, but gradually. There's a lot to discuss. Well, so first of all, thank you so much for coming, and I'm gonna go right for the mess. You're 31 years old. You're having your second child. You're in the hospital, looks like the baby's okay, and then all of a sudden, they disappear with your child, and you also then discover pretty quickly that you have a pretty intense form of cancer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So talk about messy.

[B]

Yes. It all happened back to back.

[A]

How do you even continue to move forward in that moment? Like, what was going through your head?

[B]

When my daughter was first admitted to the nicu, that was an experience where we're overwhelmed with fear and uncertainty, but there's actually nothing that we could do other than be present in that moment and worry and worry and be present with all of those hard and uncomfortable feelings.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And in those days, actually. So she was in the NICU for five days and then thankfully was ultimately discharged with a clean bill of health. But during those five days, we truly were actually just taking it one moment after the next, one day after the next, because there was so much to worry about, but not anything that we could do to rush the process. And so focusing on.

[A]

Although that's not true, because they were going to take the baby and not move you because you'd had a C section.

[B]

That is true.

[A]

So they were going to leave you behind and take the baby to different locations.

[B]

Oh, yes. Over my dead body. They were going to leave me behind while they take my daughter away. So that is a very good point. After the C section, when my daughter had to be unexpectedly intubated and transferred, they were saying that they were going to take her in an ambulance an hour away to a hospital that Actually has that neonatal icu, but that I wouldn't be able to go. And it was unfathomable to me that that would be a scenario that any mother would be presented with. Finding those moments of advocacy, finding those moments of empowerment where I'm like, I can't stop my baby from struggling with what she's struggling with, but I can be there for her and making sure that they also provided me with an ambulance, also provided, you know, an option for my mother to escort me in this ambulance to the hospital was something that I could control.

[A]

But you're clearly good at being convincing. But what you're saying makes me want to actually ask you about your childhood. Right. Because how you learn to advocate for yourself and communicate, which is really what you're describing, that has to have come from your childhood.

[B]

In some ways. I learned the power of doing what you need to do and work ethic from my immigrant parents. I was born in India, and we came to the US When I was very young. And I saw them work hard. I saw them do what they needed to do to, like, craft this life for my sister, Sister and I. And yet when it came to situations like health and crises, there's a social expectation of being very secretive about it. In India, even to this day, doctors are almost held on this elevated state.

[A]

Yeah, they're revered. They want everyone to be an engineer, just like Iranians.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Be an engineer or a doctor.

[B]

Yes, they. They are revered, and they are not necessarily questioned. And so then my parents applied that in America, too, that when my mom got diagnosed with early onset breast cancer in her 30s.

[A]

How old were you?

[B]

I was six at the time. It took me a long time, though, to understand why we couldn't talk about it outside of our child.

[A]

I mean, six, you have some awareness.

[B]

I barely knew. I have flashes of memories. And at this time, we were in Portland, Oregon, and we were on the ground floor apartment complex. I just remember that when we would go outside, my mom was wearing a wig and that it was uncomfortable for her. So when we were inside the house, she didn't want to wear it, but she also didn't want anyone walking by to potentially see her. And so even though it was broad daylight, we would have the curtains closed and the lights all on.

[A]

So you knew something was going on, but you didn't have, like, a family conversation or discussion about what was happening.

[B]

I don't remember now if the word cancer was used in that initial conversation or not. It possibly was, and I just probably didn't grasp it.

[A]

So interestingly for you, when you have cancer, so here, you know, years apart, you have cancer about the same time as your mom. Yeah. For you, you actually do the inverse. It's like you called it a rebellion, which I thought was funny. You actually start blogging about it. Not only do you talk about it with your family, you start telling the world. You start telling 85 million people, you know, all over the world about it.

[B]

Yes, because growing up with the feeling that this is a private thing that shouldn't be talked about, I always respected it because it was my mom's story to tell. But I also felt the burden of that secret. Growing up, if a high school or college friend had a parent, you know, a mother going through breast cancer, I would just listen to the story as a friend, but I would never then share that, like, oh, my mother had also gone through something like this. It became clear to me at a pretty young age, before I even got diagnosed, that if anything like that were to happen to me, I wouldn't want to.

[A]

So let's go back to that minute where they tell you you have cancer.

[B]

I was 31 years old. I was at home just two days after being discharged from the hospital. My newborn baby had just been discharged from the neonatal icu. And we had just experienced nearly a week of what was probably the most scary and stressful time of our life. And it finally reached this point that we're home, our family's complete, we're healthy. And it actually truly felt really joyous. And it was Father's Day weekend. My husband had taken my toddler out for Father's Day celebrations. And it was exactly the day of my newborn's one week birthday. And I was sitting in bed holding my newborn in my arms when I got the call from a breast surgeon

[A]

on a Saturday, you know, that's never.

[B]

And I immediately knew that this can't be good news. And I answer the phone and she says, I'm sorry, but the mass is malignant after all. And it's that after all, that really stuck with me because multiple healthcare providers, from the moment I had felt my own lump and like, raised the red flag on it to getting these biopsy results, had said, it's nothing to worry about because I'm 31, I'm pregnant, and it's most likely a clogged milk duct.

[A]

How long was that period?

[B]

It was very short because I was actually at an ultrasound appointment for the baby at 38 weeks because there was some monitoring that she had to have. When I first felt the lump. And I actually immediately asked my OB GYN about it. And she also was an example of the first provider who said, it's probably nothing to worry about, but because I had had genetic testing done, because I knew I had an elevated risk, she ultimately agreed to give me a referral. But I never made it to that appointment because only two days after I first felt the lump did my water break early, and I went in for this C section.

[A]

But you were already somebody who was advocating for yourself because you felt the lump and you pushed to actually get a referral, which somebody might have just flubbed off.

[B]

Yes, I will say that my husband was also by my side, advocating for me on this front, because one thing that I haven't shared yet is his own mother had passed away at age 31 from breast cancer, and now his wife was 31 years old, feeling a lump, having an elevated risk of breast cancer. And he was the one who actually ultimately wheeled me because I still couldn't walk from my C section from the NICU to a neighboring breast clinic, because even though we had missed that other referral appointment, he was not going to let it get dismissed either. After the milk came in, I actually couldn't feel the lump anymore. I easily could have dismissed in my own head that they were right. It's a clogged milk duct. That's why I can't feel it anymore. I possibly could have breastfed her for a year, like I ultimately did my first, and I wouldn't have felt that lump again until it would have been way too late.

[A]

I mean, how did that feel? He comes home, you tell him, like, what is that emotional rollercoaster like? And how do you pick yourself back up to keep functioning?

[B]

When I first got the news from the doctor, I actually instinctively went into a little bit of a warrior mode, where I was actually, like, kind of matter of fact. And it was only when she said, and obviously this means you will need to stop breastfeeding soon. That's when I, like, threw my head in my hands and started bawling.

[A]

You didn't call him? You waited for him?

[B]

I didn't call him. I didn't call him once he got home. And once we talked about it, you know, I brought him into the room. He. He actually could tell right away that I had been crying. I just said straight out, I have breast cancer. His immediate reaction was, I can't do this without you. And I said, you're not going to have to.

[A]

Did you know you were going to be okay?

[B]

I had complete Conviction that I'm going to be okay because it was honestly just too painful to think of any alternate.

[A]

It's all about flipping your mindset. Right? But on a purely analytical level, you are aware that it may not work out.

[B]

So there is a book called Super Survivors that I only came across years later where the authors research and interview all of these people who have gone through very harrowing experiences in their life. And of those that experienced post traumatic growth as opposed to stress, they labeled as super survivors and tried to identify what is that one trait that was common amongst that population. And they identified that they all maintained what they coined grounded hope. It's not just blind hope in the future, it embodies one. The term grounded that is anchored in reality.

[A]

Where do you think that comes from? And people ask me this question. Right, but I'm curious to know if you've been able to dissect it. You're much more framework oriented than me. So I'm very curious because you clearly went in and dug into this and you've researched it. Where do you think that comes from? In your upbringing or in your journey today?

[B]

I think there's some, some element of immigrant upbringing where you see your parents overcome, struggle and work hard. There's some wiring in there that just gets passed down. When it comes to something like resilience, we're not just born with it or not born with it.

[A]

You think that you can learn resilience?

[B]

You can learn resilience? Yes. It is a actual muscle that we can exercise and we can strengthen, but it takes time and intention, just like any exercise would.

[A]

That's interesting because you're also a parent and I, I ask this question often of people, you know, to some degree. I learned resilience because that was the only option. It was either roll up like a ball or be resilient. And yet with our kids, we don't want them to have to have, you know, I don't want hardship for them in order for them to learn resilience. So I always wonder, can you learn it? And you're saying that you can. And a lot of our listeners, a lot of people in the world now, we're living through a time of incredible chaos and trauma on a pretty regular basis, whether it's at home or from afar. What advice do you have for somebody who's going through a traumatic moment? Like how do they find what you're describing to get to the other side?

[B]

It starts by actually creating space for what we're feeling and not feeling like we have to Power through with some blind optimism, but actually embrace and accept that. Yes, these are very uncertain times. These are scary times. You have to actually be able to name what you're feeling to then be able to address it, to find your way through. To find your way through it. But you don't want to get trapped in it either.

[A]

Yeah, but so I think back to sort of your journey, right? You're living in your second generation.

[B]

I was actually born in India.

[A]

You were young when you came, and then you grew up in a pretty traditional setting, it sounds like, because you end up marrying your childhood sweetheart, which I love. And, you know, you do what many of us do, which is you follow the expectations, right? MIT for engineering, Harvard. Then you gone to Bain, sort of doing all the right things, all the right markers. You have breast cancer, you get through it, you study it, you build a framework around it. Like, you're definitely an engineer. And I was interested in sort of that journey for you and how even from that, you were, like, trying to find your purpose. Now, for some reason, there was this transformation that begins to happen for you where you're like, I want to care more about what I'm doing. So even with the startup, you end up at a health startup.

[B]

So initially, I had just left Bain and joined a consumer technology startup in the retail space. Was I passionate about retail? Not at all.

[A]

But you could have been. I would have bought that.

[B]

I mean, it just. It wasn't the priority at that time. And I. And I probably actually just didn't know what I was passionate about either. Right. Like, I had just been doing consulting my entire career.

[A]

Because you were on a path all along. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't know if we had permission to go think about that.

[B]

I was on a path that I didn't know where it would lead to. And I actually ended up staying on this whole Bain consulting path for many years longer than I even thought I would. The decision to stay was optimizing for something important to me at that point.

[A]

Which was what?

[B]

So it varied. When I first graduated, it would be more aligned with, like, the interpersonal skills that I enjoy versus the other option that I was considering. And where some internships had been on were like the sales and trading floors at Wall street, which is so baffling to me now because I'm like, how is that aligned with my, like, priorities and personality? And I definitely only ended up on that path because in college, you end up kind of getting swayed by where the wind is blowing and it's like, oh, that's the prestigious internship to get to know. I was gonna say, I told that

[A]

I'm knowing your prestige path. Right. The Marker college. The Marker business school. The Marker job.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So you go mit, Harvard, Bain. These are all about prestige. It's so interesting because I took my last semester in college abroad, which was a crazy thing to do, but really part of it was I knew that the people who recruited on campus were the consultings and the banks. And I was like, if I'm not here, I won't be tempted. Because it was so tempting to go down that path. Right. Like, you're like, hey, one more notch on that ladder. I opted out. And so I was forcing myself to try and figure out, like, what is it I really want to do? Turned out you can't really do that either. You can't intentionally figure out your passion. So you go on this path and you discover consulting, which is incredibly appealing. But, you know, having hired consultants and been a consultant myself, like, it's a hard life. You are working all the time. You know, it's a 247 sleep under your desk job, to be clear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not a have a personal life job.

[B]

So the reason to stay was definitely changing year by year. In those early years, it was a hard job, but it was a great culture and set of people. And the friends that I made are lifelong friends to this day.

[A]

They're in the trenches.

[B]

None of us are there anymore.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, the. I think the perspective I had around it then is that this is the time in my life to work hard. But then when it came to going to, you know, business school, why did I decide to go back to Bain? Well, not only would they cover the cost of business school, which was appealing. Oh, yeah. It's like, you know, the luring you back in. But the clarity that I had was that when I'm in business school, my by then husband was going to be working in New York. And then we are both from the west coast and we both want to go back to the West Coast. I have the geographic flexibility in a company I've already established myself in to be able to transfer.

[A]

It's all very strategic.

[B]

It's all very strategic and intentional.

[A]

There's so much control in what you're describing to me. Right. It's a path that's optimizing for control a hundred percent. And then life throws you the curl ball and you learn that is just not real. You actually have no control. It's such a hard lesson for us all to learn. Because humans definitely like things that are familiar and control. And yet you definitely got that lesson at 31 in a big way.

[B]

It's this realization that time is limited that makes you, yes, on one hand, experience that there's so much out of your control. If you only stop there, then how victimizing is that?

[A]

But you don't leave on the other side of cancer and go become an Indian dancer, which, by the way, I know you love to do Indian dancing, but I mean, you don't like, totally pivot out of the world of business.

[B]

No, no, no. This is a multi year process to reflect on what I went through. What does that mean for its impact on me? What does that mean for, like, how I want to spend my time? But it wasn't that I necessarily had an answer to it right away or like, suddenly knew what I wanted to dive into. My maternity turned medical leave came to an end and I just went back to that same retail startup that I had been at before. I ended up staying on for another two years, largely out of loyalty to the team, because those colleagues had been, they stood by you so supportive. I mean, I had only been working there for six months before my delivery and diagnosis, and some of them even took me to chemo appointments. Even that startup journey was another test of resilience. Going through, you know, rounds of layoffs, going through figuring out, do we sell, do we go for profitability? Right. All of these, like, entrepreneurial decisions that you make. It was about two years later that we reached an inflection point where we got acquired by a bigger retail company and I took the opportunity to leave.

[A]

Did you immediately go back to another job?

[B]

When I left Bain and when I left this startup, I left without having anything lined up because how did that feel?

[A]

Because that can be terrifying.

[B]

That can feel terrifying. Well, so with, with Bain, I actually thought I might want to start something myself and I was like, noodling with my own entrepreneurial ideas. But then when I learned I was pregnant two weeks after leaving Bain, I realized I don't know if I'm ready to be married.

[A]

Maybe not the right moment.

[B]

Yes, exactly. And I also don't want to be unemployed indefinitely until, like, after this baby's born. And so I actually, like, turbocharged a recruiting effort and joined this startup, like, at the end of my first trimester. You made the point earlier that you can't intentionally find your passion. I knew I didn't have clarity of what my mission was, but I felt like my mission had found me. What happened is I came across a TechCrunch article about this startup in the genetic testing space that was working to democratize access to genetic testing for hereditary cancers.

[A]

And you're like, no, I totally. This is me.

[B]

This is literally my life story.

[A]

So you go in for what seems like a purpose driven role. Seems perfect for you, right? It feels like it fits all those boxes, but then it didn't end up working out the way you. Again, I go back to, you think you have control, you go in and then that ends up not at all how you expect.

[B]

Initially. It does. Initially, it's amazing. It felt like everything was aligning, like the skills I had built in my career, I was now applying into this like B2B marketing role. I was doing like work that I was loving. It was impacting people and benefiting the world. I was, you know, it was a profession I was getting paid for. So when it comes to the ikigai framework and all of those elements that make you think about, like, what is your reason for being? It's the intersection of four quadrants or Venn diagram. It's what you love to do, what you're good at, what the world needs. And in Western culture, the fourth element is interpreted as what you can be paid for. And I didn't know of ikigai prior to working at this healthcare startup. I just have like a family WhatsApp thread that my dad's always like forwarding random things to. And so I took a closer look at it and in that moment I actually felt like, through this healthcare startup, yeah, you're ikigai serving my ikigai. And it was so thrilling to feel that and know that it is anchored in this very difficult experience, but it was almost creating meaning from it.

[A]

Now, yeah, you're actually. It's like purpose out of despair. So you get a call from a friend who says that they've just laid off people and you're caught unawares.

[B]

I knew the company was going through not like a restructuring, but like a change in business strategy. When I then reached the office and I was called in into a conference room with the CEO, a legal representative, and my direct supervisor, the cmo. Even in that moment, I was so convinced that, oh, they want to talk to me about what's happening to other people. You had no idea I'm being called in. You had no.

[A]

You had no idea it was coming for you?

[B]

No idea it was coming for me. I was completely blindsided.

[A]

I'm going to say, generally speaking, if you get called into meeting with your boss, and HR and legal are there, like, nine. Maybe, like 99.5% of the time. The sticky's coming.

[B]

In hindsight, it's so obvious. I was just so not in the headspace to even think of that possibility as happening to me. I bawled. Not in the moment.

[A]

Not in the moment. Because I think I read that you actually started problem solving for them as

[B]

one always thought it was. Let me go back. So ridiculous. Like, it actually, like, upsets me now, thinking back about it, because I did ask some questions because I was. I was so very confused because the.

[A]

Hard to take in.

[B]

It was very hard to take in. And I want to emphasize that this wasn't just getting laid off from a job, which is hard enough for anyone because there's the financial implication, there's, like, the hit to your ego and your identity. But this was a job that not only had I personally defined meaning to the company, had actually, like, interviewed my entire family and created this entire video montage of our family's cancer journey and the genetic testing had. That video had literally been, like, shown to millions of people, and it was playing on the, like, TV in the office, like, on loop, like, as I'm being laid off.

[A]

So you're being laid off. And it feels like the ultimate betrayal.

[B]

Yes. But in that very moment when they. When they first tell me the news, I'm so shocked. It was so awkward. I actually ended up saying sorry to the CEO who's laying me off because I couldn't process my own.

[A]

You felt bad for him. It must be so. I felt bad for him.

[B]

It was ridiculous. But because I had just been on the other side of layoffs at the previous company, I think the words out of my mouth were literally, like, I know this must be so hard for you.

[A]

Yes. Show up with empathy. That's amazing. It's. And by the way, I'm gonna say telling.

[B]

Thankfully, I wasn't, like, I wasn't forced to sign anything immediately. I was not allowed to say goodbye to anyone.

[A]

It's such a brutal ending.

[B]

It's such a brutal ending, you know, for some. For, like, a team you've been working with, a place you, like, put your whole heart into. It took me a long time to, like, understand this, but it's not personal.

[A]

I know, but it feels so personal.

[B]

It feels so deeply personal. But it. It's literally the protocol that we're taught in business school about how it should work is like, you. You convey the news. You have them grab their things from the desk and have them leave effectively. Escorted and the rest of their things will be mailed to them. And it wasn't like just me. It's not like this like firing situation that had happened. It was like this company wide layoff. And this is what was happening.

[A]

Fired for cause or not. It just feels terrible.

[B]

It feels terrible.

[A]

So you go home and you cry.

[B]

Oh yeah, well, I. I start bawling as soon as I get to my car. I sit in my car for a while because I like don't even feel equipped to drive. And then I drive myself home and I cry more. And this is where that period that I was talking about starts of, honestly, a lot of phone calls, like, you know, wanting to check up on other team members, like who else was impacted. Because when this happens, you actually don't know who is it. You're one out of ten.

[A]

You're back to helping other people in your moment of need.

[B]

I like it. I couldn't undo the layoff. I couldn't fix the business, like strategy or whatever that the company was struggling with. But what I could do is check in on the people that I care about that I had worked with. What I could do is try to share what I know and learn from them what's happening. Kind of going into information collection mode

[A]

and that, that's a good tip. Like, if somebody's been laid off and you know, they're past the crying in the car phase, what is a piece of advice you have for them now that you are on the other side? Well, on the other side of that,

[B]

I think it's understanding just tactically what is the paperwork you're being provided with and what is like, okay for you to sign, what is okay to push back on. You could only get that information by like seeking advice from others. This is where it gets a little bit tricky because those uncomfortable feelings include shame. And when you feel shame, it can be easy, easier to just isolate and really draw inward. And I think that's probably the first thing I actually did is when I got home, like there wasn't like an immediate calling of people. I think I probably just like crawled into bed and threw the blanket over my head and like, didn't leave for a couple hours before I actually then like started this outreach. But it's like you almost have to actively intervene on yourself and not allow those feelings of shame or otherwise that are drawing you inward to prevent you from reaching out selectively. I'm not saying like, go blast it to everyone immediately or go just tell

[A]

everyone just for like, I've been fired Please call me.

[B]

Exactly. If you allow yourself to be vulnerable to select people, someone who might just be the shoulder you need to cry on, someone who might be the experience sharer. This is how they navigated it. What can you learn from it? In a way that's almost a similar journey I went through even after the cancer diagnosis. Because as easy as it is to want to just cry under the blanket and sit in the fear, what was a lot more empowering was to actually call people who are doctors, call people who have gone through cancer themselves.

[A]

It goes back to taking control.

[B]

It goes back to taking control. You know, one of the sayings that my husband and I used to talk about, I think it's used in the military, is that hope is not a course of action. You need to accept the brutal reality. You need to believe in a better future. But then you also have to do something to actually create that better future. Sometimes action isn't making the problem go away. I can't undiagnose myself. But what I can do is figure out what questions to ask. What I can do is certain levels of research to inform myself so that when I make that doctor's appointment or I get that second opinion, I'm going in prepared.

[A]

How long from that point to your new journey because you actually finally get off that hamster wheel.

[B]

The layoff itself was at the end of 2018 and I knew I was in a not great place emotionally. And he was also going into the holidays. Like there was at least gonna be a few weeks before I even like think about what to do in the new year.

[A]

I like that it's just weeks for you. I'm like months. Okay.

[B]

And it turned into months. And I'm so thankful that I gave myself permission to take that time and had the privilege and had a hundred percent and that I had the luxury to be able to do so for high achievers, for myself. It's easy to get drawn into someone else wanting you for something we're not taught to step back and think about. What do we actually care about? Like what are we choosing versus the choices that are like pushed upon us. I had spoken to a friend of mine about like how I have no idea what I want to do next. And he told me to wait for the bells to ring. And you know, I went into my 10 year business school reunion unemployed.

[A]

Oh yeah, that's a terrifying one.

[B]

It's terrifying.

[A]

And there you are at Harvard. What do you do? Oh, uh huh. Love that. Why did you go to the reunion? Because you could have Opted to say, you know what, I'm gonna skip this one.

[B]

I missed my 5 year HBS reunion because it was literally that same weekend and time, like week time period that I was delivering my second daughter and then being diagnosed with breast cancer. I loved my business school experience, I love my business school friends.

[A]

So the discomfort of not having a title wasn't big enough for you to skip it?

[B]

It wasn't big enough for me to skip it. Putting myself in that situation and actually just being honest with the people that I met. I was only met with like vulnerability in return.

[A]

If you share the messy parts, it actually opens the world up to you.

[B]

The number of people that then were like, that sounds amazing, or I've really been unhappy in my job for years.

[A]

It's amazing how many people in business school are not actually happy in their jobs.

[B]

And the thing is that no matter what it is that you're feel feeling, you're not alone in it. But you don't know that until you share it and then give others permission to share back.

[A]

Tell us what it is that you're doing now, like, what is this phase? Because also you have a new book, which I think is not an easy thing to do.

[B]

So what I do now is I work as a keynote speaker, a writer turned author, and a mindset coach focused on helping people, teams companies, navigate uncertainty and make the hard choices in the face of change.

[A]

I mean, it's easy for somebody to listen to this conversation and say, like, oh, she's had all these messy parts, but she's found her way through and now here she is with autonomy and now she's an author and it looks so perfect. Are there messy parts to this journey?

[B]

The past six years have been messy in multiple ways. There was launching a public speaking career in the October of 2019, right before COVID Public speaking literally came to a screeching halt months later. And so I pivoted virtual and started presenting into a webcam because that's what needed to be done. The journey of writing a book has been five years in the making. I had written 100 page book plan, fleshed out an entire version of what this book would be. I pitched it to traditional publishers and got rejection after rejection after rejection. You know, going back to your original question around, has this part been messy?

[A]

I think it's all messy.

[B]

It's all messy.

[A]

And honestly, the good stuff's in the mess.

[B]

Okay, we're gonna do the learning is in the mess.

[A]

The growth is definitely in the mess. Okay, we're gonna do A couple of quick fire, rapid fire questions. Ready? Okay. Well, I was going to say, what's your messiest moment on a scale of 1 to 10, but it feels like you had a lot of those. What's the one you would pick?

[B]

The messiest moment ranking on A10 is holding my newborn baby and being diagnosed with breast cancer.

[A]

When was the last time you cried?

[B]

Last week. Oh, actually this morning. Yeah, I was like, actually now. Actually right now.

[A]

What is a career myth that you think is a waste of time?

[B]

That early on in your career you need to find your passion and purpose?

[A]

What's one thing you would never do again?

[B]

Well, two knee surgeries later, I am no longer able to do dance moves on the floor. No more dance moves. And trust myself to get back up.

[A]

What advice would you have for somebody who's having a crisis of confidence?

[B]

Name what the hard thing is that they're facing and try to understand what it is and then not hold themself back from sharing those feelings with people that love and support them. The more that we connect with others, share with others, the stronger and more resilient we become.

[A]

I totally agree with that. Okay, so my last one for you is your book title is the Path of Least Regret. If you look back, do you have a regret and what is it?

[B]

There's a reason the book is not called the Path of no Regret, because I actually don't believe that we can live a life of no regrets, just from like a professional standpoint. Sometimes I wonder if my career would have gone in a different trajectory if I had not rushed my job search after Bain, joining a super early stage startup that like may or may not go somewhere. Calling it a regret is hard because it ended up being this supportive team

[A]

of people and it ends up being part of the journey.

[B]

Exactly. Being able to recognize the role it played in you becoming who you are in where you're at today. That only happened because of all of those non linear and messy.

[A]

I'm going to borrow Mel Robbins and say you have to let go. You make the decision the best decision you can with intention, and then you let it go.

[B]

And I think saying let it go itself is hard advice because it just

[A]

because it's not so easy to do

[B]

easy and it's asking something of people. One of the things I struggled with the most after being diagnosed was actually grieving that I couldn't be the mom to my newborn baby that I wanted to be in those early months. And it took me time to let go of that guilt. And what helped me let go a bit was not just like, I'm going to decide to let go, but it was by reframing the experience as I'm actually ensuring that I'm going to be there for her for the longer term.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on.

[B]

Thank you. This was great.

[A]

I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Messy Parts. There was a lot of messy parts that I know were quite unexpected in a story that is very much about achievement and control. We can all relate to that. Now, remember, tell 10 friends. I'm like a walking sandwich board. Tell 10 friends. Recommend it, like it, share it, review it. That's how we get to share more messy stories with you.