Sarah Personette: Choosing Kindness

Summary

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The Messy Parts with Maryam Banikarim

Episode: Sarah Personette: Choosing Kindness
Date: August 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Maryam Banikarim sits down with Sarah Personette, CEO of Puck, for a candid and vulnerable conversation about building resilience, the realities behind professional success, and the foundational role of kindness in leadership. Sarah unpacks her journey from a civically engaged childhood in Illinois to running major media organizations, reflecting on early setbacks, career pivots, and upholding her values—especially kindness—as a structural force in her life and work. The discussion covers coping with adversity, trusting one’s instincts, leading through disruption, and managing work-life balance, offering both practical insights and thought-provoking anecdotes for listeners at all stages of their career.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life and the Seeds of Leadership

[01:48–05:04]

• Sarah shares formative childhood experiences, highlighting her parents’ civic engagement and leadership in the community as influences on her early aspiration to lead.
• Inspiration from her father’s Rotary Club speech:

  “We are too good not to be better.”
  —Sarah Personette, citing her father [03:37]

• Early experiences in student government, including repeated election losses, and how these moments taught her about persistence, risk, and resilience.

2. Coping with Hardship: Building Inner Resilience

[05:20–07:53]

• Contrary to perceptions of a “picture-perfect” childhood, Sarah faced significant family adversity around age 8 or 9 involving mental health and trauma.
• These hardships led to coping mechanisms that became critical for her resilience:

  “Things that for many people when they’re hit with one of the hardships would be knocked down. I can be hit with five and I can still stand up. And I know that that’s a gift, but it’s a gift that came at a very significant expense.”
  —Sarah Personette [05:20]

• Both Maryam and Sarah discuss the paradox of wanting to shield their own children from difficulty, yet knowing that resilience is often built through adversity.

3. The Value of Losing and Failing

[08:03–10:57]

• Sarah recounts a long track record of both wins and losses in school elections, learning not to tie her identity to titles or external validations.
• On reframing setbacks:

  “My identity is not connected to titles. It’s not connected to companies. It’s not connected to winning an election or losing an election.”
  —Sarah Personette [11:14]

• The importance of not treating success as a zero-sum game, both in families and professional teams.

4. Making Nontraditional Career Choices

[13:20–19:49]

• Sarah describes choosing Northwestern and then taking a leap into media with Starcom, influenced by gut instinct and systems thinking, even against her father’s pragmatic career advice.
• On trusting her gut:

  “In that moment, it didn’t feel like a risk. It felt like this is absolutely the right thing to do.”
  —Sarah Personette [17:46]

• Key leadership lessons from working in female-led environments and the positive impact on her ambitions and worldview.

5. Navigating Messy Workplaces and Undermining

[22:18–25:28]

• Sarah opens up about a difficult period in her leadership when a few colleagues actively opposed her presence, sharing both the emotional impact and her strategy for resilience:

  “Lead for the 997, not for the 3.”
  —Sarah Personette [23:16]

• Emphasizes the necessity of finding safe spaces for support and the limits on perseverance:

  “If you haven’t resolved it in a three month time frame, like action needs to be taken.”
  —Sarah Personette [25:12]

• Leadership is about upholding values, not pleasing everyone.

6. Values-Driven Leadership

[25:54–27:20]

• Sarah names her core values: kindness, integrity, fairness, being tough, and being inclusive.
• She applies evidence-based decision-making—debating principles and evidence, not just beliefs.

7. Pursuing Learning Over Titles & Money

[27:20–30:00]

• Sarah’s career moves (including to Facebook and later Twitter) prioritized learning and growth over money or prestige, even at the expense of taking lateral or step-down roles.
• On handling the perception of job-hopping:

  “I firmly believe in loyalty to companies...for as long as you can meet the company and the company can meet you.”

• Family support and having the courage to chase learning are recurring themes—even when loved ones disagree with her decisions.

8. The Leap to CEO at Puck & Embracing Disruption

[31:35–39:48]

• After a break, Sarah chose Puck’s CEO role because of its creator-centric, journalist-first model—likened to product-and-engineering in tech.
• The disruption in media (AI, fragmentation) is “energizing,” not terrifying, for Sarah:

  “Opportunity can come from volatility…Right now, we are relearning the growth playbook. Like, how cool. When do you get presented with that in your career where you get to completely shift and create a new paradigm?”
  —Sarah Personette [38:20]

9. Navigating Work, Family, and Identity

[39:48–44:23]

• Both Maryam and Sarah discuss the challenge of being present parents and high-performing executives.
• Sarah sets clear boundaries: “No company is going to hug you 10 years from now. I’m very clear on who is going to hug me 10 years from now. That’s my husband, and that is my two boys.” [41:16]
• Pivoted her approach during COVID, putting family at the center, and accepting that true balance is sometimes messy and imperfect.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On overcoming adversity:

  “I have had people, especially in my childhood, say like, it doesn’t seem like anything affects you. And I’m like, it affects me. I just, I process it super quickly and don’t look back, just look forward. Like, what can I learn from this experience? And then how can I move forward?”
  —Sarah Personette [06:56]

• On ego and leadership:

  “I am never the smartest person in the room. I might be the hardest working person in the room. I might be the kindest person in the room, but I’m definitely not the smartest.”
  —Sarah Personette [31:14]

• On kindness as a structural force:

  “Kindness is not just a value, it’s actually a structural force. I’ve been asked to come back to three different companies, and it is not because I am the smartest person in the room. It’s because of the way that I made people feel when I left the room. And I think that our world could use a little more kindness.”
  —Sarah Personette [44:23]

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Quickfire Segment – Get to Know Sarah

[43:30–44:47]

• Walk-on song: "Unstoppable" by Sia
• Food for a potluck: Whispering Angel rosé
• Alternative career: Teach (preschool, not investment banking!)
• Reading now: "The Tell" (Amy Griffin) and "Hidden Potential" (Adam Grant)
• Surprise fact: “I am a horrible cook.”
• Parting advice: (See “kindness as a structural force” quote above)

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Useful Timestamps

• Defining Leadership & Early Influences: [02:13–05:04]
• Coping with Hardship & Resilience: [05:20–07:53]
• On Losing and Identity: [10:57–13:14]
• Making Unconventional Career Moves: [15:37–19:49]
• Navigating Hostile Work Environments: [22:34–25:28]
• Articulating Core Values: [25:54–27:20]
• Switching From Titles to Learning: [27:20–30:00]
• CEO at Puck & Disruption in Media: [31:35–39:48]
• Work-Life Balance & Identity: [39:48–44:23]
• Quickfire Round: [43:30–44:47]

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Tone and Language

Throughout the conversation, Sarah is candid, vulnerable, and thoughtful. Maryam’s warmth and curiosity elicit deep reflection on messy moments, turning setbacks into lessons, and the philosophy that kindness in action is a true leadership superpower.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking key lessons, memorable moments, and actionable inspiration from Sarah Personette’s remarkable, “messy” journey.

Transcript

[Marianne Banakaram]

You seem to have had a picture perfect childhood, you know, as a kid who had a lot of upheaval for lots of reasons. Sometimes I say to the therapist, like, oh, my God, it's just such a mess all the time. Somebody must have it easier. And he says, that's a rare bunch. But I was just gonna say, you could be the rare bunch. Yeah.

[Sarah Parsonet]

So this is not my story to tell, but I will share this that around When I was 8 or 9, we had a very significant situation, situation in our home that dealt with mental health challenges and trauma. I think as a result of, like, the hardship of going through that with a very close knit family, I learned coping mechanisms that have been like, indescribably important to me over the course of my life. Things that for many people, when they're hit with one of the hardships, would be knocked down. I can be hit with five and I can still stand up. And I know that that's a gift, but it's a gift that came at a very significant expense.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Now, I can relate to that. It's interesting because, like you, I'm a parent and when my kids got into school, I wanted them. Can I get you a tissue?

[Sarah Parsonet]

No, no, it's okay. Just tell me if my mascara is.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I'm just. Hi, I'm Marianne Banakaram, host of the Messy Parts podcast. Today we're going to have on Sarah Parsonet, CEO of Puck. The amazing part of Sarah's journey is that she has learned resilience. She never took a job for the money, and she prioritizes kindness. This is a story you're going to want to listen to. I know that you're a lifelong learner and kind of a risk taker because we know each other, but not super well. This podcast was not launched when you said yes. I love that. You just dove right in like you do with pretty much everything, as far as I can tell.

[Sarah Parsonet]

I am thrilled to be here. Thank you for including me.

[Marianne Banakaram]

One of the things I really love about sort of digging into your backstory is that you really care about leadership. And so I want to start actually at the very beginning. Right. I mean, I'm sort of interested in what makes somebody tick. And so you grew up in Illinois in a small town, I think. Right. And I read that you wanted to be CEO at an early age. Is that true?

[Sarah Parsonet]

That is true. The story on that is I was like 7 or 8. My dad worked out in Chicago and I went with him one day and one of his colleagues shook my hand and Was like, hey, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I was like, I want to be a CEO.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Did you even know what a CEO was?

[Sarah Parsonet]

So I did not really. I think what, like, reflecting on it, I think what I was trying to say is that I wanted to be a leader. And what I knew the CEO title to represent was leadership. And I think what I've learned from growing up is that the title does not matter, that leadership is about common purpose. Leadership comes at all levels of all organizations and all parts of life.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Seven is young.

[Sarah Parsonet]

It is young.

[Marianne Banakaram]

What made you even know at that time that you wanted to be a leader? I mean, much less the knowing the title of what is a CEO.

[Sarah Parsonet]

I grew up in a very close knit home. My parents are very civically engaged. They were leaders in the community. My mom was like really involved in lots and lots of community service and philanthropy. And my dad, he was a part of an organization called Rotary International which has helped like remove polio from the world and all sorts of different things. He wound up being president of the Rotary International Club, the local chapter around that time. And he gave a speech to all of these very like successful individuals as he was coming into this role. And he closed it off by saying, we are too good not to be better. When I first heard it, I thought he was almost like slamming them, like, hey guys, we got to be better. But what I came to reflect on in talking with my dad about it a lot is that actually like at any given moment we have the opportunity to improve. And if you are constantly evolving and reflecting on how you can be better in your academic world, in your athletic world, in your, your friendships, that it will lead to a place of leadership and commitment. Those were the conversations we were having at a young age. I don't know if it was inherent in me. I don't know if it was because of the environment that I was set up in, to look up and look out at my parents and the commitments that they made and also reflect on how they served others and how others responded to them. But that was very inspiring to me. And so in fifth grade, I ran for student government president. I lost. And then, then I ran again in sixth grade and I lost. And then I have like a series of kind of elections throughout my academic career up through college, where I have won some, like, major things and I've lost a lot of things.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You seem to have had a picture perfect childhood, you know, as a kid who had a lot of upheaval for lots of reasons. Sometimes I Say to the therapist, like, oh my God, it's just such a mess all the time. Somebody must have it easier. And he says, that's a rare bunch of. But I was just going to say you could be the rare bunch.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah. So this is not my story to tell, but I will share this that around When I was 8 or 9, we had a very significant situation in our home that dealt with mental health challenges and trauma. I think as a result of like the hardship of going through that with a very close knit family, I learned coping mechanisms that have been like indescribably important to me over the course of my life. Things that for many people when they're hit with one of the hardships would be knocked down. I can be hit with five and I can still stand up. And I know that that's a gift, but it's a gift that came at a very significant expense.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Now I can relate to that. It's interesting because like you, I'm a parent and when my kids got into school, I wanted them. Can I get you a tissue?

[Sarah Parsonet]

No, no, it's okay. Just tell me if my mascara has worked.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I'm just, I' gonna say that was crazy because I would never have expected this moment and yet I can relate to that moment. Right. And I would say to you as a kid who, you know, lived through revolution, had an uncle who passed away in a car accident early on, one of the things that I would say all the time is I don't want my children to go through difficulty to learn resilience. And yet part of the reason I'm good at picking myself back up is exactly that. And it's also so much easier to learn as a kid because it's like a bike. Right. You sort of figure out like, oh, you can get back up sometimes. I think it's not the healthiest of things because I learned to compartmentalize to the point of almost not feeling some of those feelings.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah. I have had people, especially in my childhood, say like, it doesn't seem like anything affects you. And I'm like, it affects me. I'm just, I process it super quickly and don't look back, just look forward. Like, what can I learn from this experience? And then how can I move forward? And I think about that in my career and there have been like very, very public moments of having to deal with challenging things. In your private life, you're dealing with private things. And I think both now having children, like we openly talk about that stuff because I don't want them to Experience some form of trauma, to your point. But I do want them to have the ability to connect with themselves, to feel what they're feeling, to put language to it, but then also not be weighed down by that and not be able to move forward in the world.

[Marianne Banakaram]

It's a curse and a gift in some way to learn those things through hardship in life.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Absolutely.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So clearly, like, it was a formative thing that happened to you.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah.

[Marianne Banakaram]

And I'm going to go with, like, losing an election in fifth grade, also a pretty difficult thing.

[Sarah Parsonet]

It's, like, very silly. But there's, like, nothing more binary on, like, winning and losing than an election.

[Marianne Banakaram]

And also at that age where you so want to be accepted and like everybody else, the thing that's interesting about you is you don't do a one and done, like, I lost, and so I'm gonna curl up like a ball. You go again, you lose again.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah. And then you still keep losing, and then I finally win, and then you give up.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Yeah. And so what do you think the lesson is in that? Right. I mean, I think about our kids or the generation or even people who are pivoting or who've lost jobs or are pausing. What's the thing that reminds them that they can pick themselves back up and go again?

[Sarah Parsonet]

Interestingly enough, my son actually just ran for vice president of service at his school, and he's in fifth grade. Only eighth graders won. And I kept saying to him, I was like, but it does not matter whether or not you win or you lose. It's that you tried and you signaled that commitment to your community. So I think for me, one is, like, signaling that commitment to my community, whoever my community is at the time, whether it's local, whether it's global, whether it sits in a personal or professional environment. The other thing that I think is probably really important is, is not being afraid to fail. Like, it's so. It's very cliche, but, like, fail fast, learn faster. I'm constantly failing at things, and there's no greater example of that than losing an election. But, like, in fifth grade, in fifth grade, failure doesn't stop me.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Why not? Like, what is it about you that it doesn't stop you?

[Sarah Parsonet]

It might be the part of, like, wanting to also learn.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I mean, because most people want to, like, curl up like a ball in that moment and maybe don't recover.

[Sarah Parsonet]

I have, like, a very high risk tolerance.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Why is that?

[Sarah Parsonet]

Probably my upbringing then. You know, it starts young, but then I think you, like, you still have to build the muscle.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Do You.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Do you read any of Adam Grant's stuff?

[Marianne Banakaram]

Sure.

[Sarah Parsonet]

So Adam Grant wrote a book called Hidden Potential and he talks about character versus personality, and he defines character as how you show up on your worst day. You might have a set of PR principles and values, and I have a very clear set of principles and values. But character is how you act upon those principles and values in the face of adversity. And personality is just like who you are on a day to day basis. Character can be learned and developed. So I don't know if I knew what I was doing in fifth grade. Like, it puts way too much import on that decision or on who I was as a little person that I would have known that. I think there's probably something, again, inherent in me that, like, had strong foundational character from the way that I was raised. But I also think that, like, over the course of time, to finish the election story, like, I lost in fifth grade, I lost in sixth grade. I won president of my class in freshman year of high school. I won in my sophomore year, I won secretary of student government. I ran for president of the school my senior year and I lost.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Oh, wow.

[Sarah Parsonet]

That was a devastating moment because I thought that this is the signal from the community that I was a leader and that this is my identity up until those moments. And then all of a sudden it was like, I am not here difficult.

[Marianne Banakaram]

It's so interesting that you viewed that as a signal. It was almost like a referendum on you.

[Sarah Parsonet]

That was my initial reaction, but then going back to like, it sounds like we both had, like, deep challenges when we were younger. And I really do think it was a massive gift to learn how to cope, learn how to, like, pick apart your feelings. This has been something I've really learned over the course of time is like, my identity is not connected to titles. It's not connected to companies. It's not connected to winning an election or losing an election. The fifth grade and sixth grade losses. I think I'm moving on pretty quickly. This one was like, I really felt like my identity was, you know, was under attack for, for a moment. And then I, like, pulled out of it. And I was like, hold on a second. There are other things that I can get involved with. I love this community, I love these people. And I went on to do a whole bunch of other leadership things my senior year and came out of that experience knowing that I'm not being knocked down. There isn't a referendum on me. There was another gal that was amazing. She got to experience that and how Great that she did. If I'm connecting all of the thoughts, I think a lot of people believe success is a zero sum game, and it's. They do not in my household, between my two kids, it's not a zero sum game. Like the competition between the two of them, I. I find two boys. I have two boys who are just the best thing that has ever happened in my life. And I see that with them. But I see that oftentimes in teams and in companies where one individual or one team thinks that for them to be successful, somebody else has to lose. That is not the case. You look at successful people and you're like, oh, my gosh, it all worked out for them. Like, look at all these things that they did.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Look at all the places you've worked, all the amazing titles.

[Sarah Parsonet]

But you don't see all the jobs that I went for and I didn't get.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So you lose the election, but at this point you already knew you were going to college, right? Because it was senior year.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes. Yes, I did.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So you go to Northwestern and I read that you left Northwestern and went to Starcom. So you're sort of very Illinois focused.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Very Illinois focused, yeah.

[Marianne Banakaram]

And so did you think of going someplace else, like, further away?

[Sarah Parsonet]

I did. The decision to go Northwestern, I like, I just instinctively, when I opened up the acceptance letter, I started crying. I was with my parents at Max and Irma's, if you remember that.

[Marianne Banakaram]

What's that?

[Sarah Parsonet]

It's like. Like a Chili's, but with hamburgers. Yeah.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Might have been a Midwestern.

[Sarah Parsonet]

I think it was a Midwestern thing. I was overwhelmed by it. I was really just like, knew that that was the right thing for me. And it was far enough away that my parents and my brothers didn't just, like, surprise me, but it was close enough that they could still be a part of stuff. So I like singing an acapella group. They got to come to my shows. You were a singer? I was a singer, yes. So I studied opera when I was in high school, and then in college, I sang in an acapella group.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Because that's also a very artistic school.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Very much so, yeah. And even, like, leadership stuff. I was president of the Greek system. Like, were able to come to all of our talks and, like, be a part of that very close knit family. Very close knit family. But yet at the same time, very independent. Most people at Northwestern go for consulting or go for investment banking. I was going the investment banking route.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You studied political science?

[Sarah Parsonet]

Political science and international relations. I doubled in the two. But Then on a whim, I took an interview at Starcom MediaVest Group.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Why?

[Sarah Parsonet]

My brother had worked there and one of his friends was like, hey, we're doing this batch interview day. Do you want to come down to the city? I was like, sure. And I like really fell in love with it.

[Marianne Banakaram]

At the interview.

[Sarah Parsonet]

At the interview. I graduated in 2001. That's when the dot com bust was happening. But it was also when the Internet was really taking over at the same time from a consumer perspective. And I liked that. Media was art and science. It was like very creative, but it was also very business oriented. And you were really working with clients to help them solve problems, investment allocations through strategic planning. And I was, I was actually offered the job on that day.

[Marianne Banakaram]

On the interview.

[Sarah Parsonet]

On the interview.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I just want you to know that's rare.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes. Yes. Okay.

[Marianne Banakaram]

That's not a messy part for you.

[Sarah Parsonet]

But what was messy is that I called my dad. I was like, hey, dad, I just accepted a job.

[Marianne Banakaram]

At least I accepted the job on the spot.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Amazing. And he's like, that is the worst career decision you've ever made. And I was like, like, huh? That was what I was expecting.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So we need to just talk about that for a second. You didn't say at the moment. Let me think about it. They offer you the job in the moment, which is rare, and you actually accept the job in the moment for $23,000. I say I graduated from business school with the lowest paying job in advertising, so I understand that probably my dad would have said the same thing. What made you trust yourself enough?

[Sarah Parsonet]

I don't know the answer to that question. Someone else recently asked me. They were like, when you take these like jobs, do you ever consider the things that you don't know how to do and as a result not go for them? And I was like, never. And I don't mean that in a place of ego. I actually have like a very low ego and I work at that because I think it makes you a better leader. But I believe in the capacity to learn also. Very early days said, be the master of your own education. So there's nothing that you can't learn and there's nothing that you can't change. If the job didn't work out, I could go and get another job.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Okay. There's two things in that. One is it's not so much the first job out of college or even out of business school. I mean, of course there's going to be things you don't know. But you believed in your gut instinct. Because you reacted in that moment. Right. You didn't even wait to go see what else your other options were.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah, no, well, I had other options.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Right. But you didn't say I'm going to go weigh them, you just said yes.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes. Because in my head I calculated very quickly what this would mean versus what those other jobs would mean. Do you know what like systems thinking is?

[Marianne Banakaram]

You're definitely systems thinker.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes, I, I like it's the ability to see like the interconnectedness between all things, actions, people, moves. And I can do that very quickly. Now I cannot do math in my head, so that's a challenge, but I can do.

[Marianne Banakaram]

But it's like a chess, you can sort of see the moves.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes, exactly. Right. I can process things very fast. So in that moment it didn't feel like a risk. It felt like this is absolutely the right thing to do.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I think there's two things in that story. Right. You trusted your instinct. Yes. You're a systems thinker, but you trusted your instinct to say yes in that moment. And then you call your dad and he says that's a terrible decision. And you don't waver. Right. It's kind of an interesting thing. Clearly you had utmost respect for your dad. So then standing up in that moment must have also been complicated.

[Sarah Parsonet]

I do think you have these moments in your life where you see whether it's your parents or other role models no longer having the same insight as you might have in the environment or the ecosystem that you are in. I think in my career, and that was like one of many times that my dad told me I was making the worst career decision. Yes, three.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Not that we're counting.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes, but three. And for me, instinctually, what I saw around what was happening with consumers, the passion that I felt for this particular time and role of what was happening in the advertising industry, because that was really interesting too. Like media and creative were, were decoupling. That was fascinating. Like I thought what I was going to learn, the experience I was going to have and the dynamic shifts that were happening with consumers were something interesting to be a part of and I wanted to lean into that. Even though financially the reward might not be as good or that maybe it would look better to have an investment bank on my resume. Like I am very much a long term planner. But I wasn't planning for what that would be. I was planning for what this experience was gonna give me in the moment. And that felt right to me. And yeah, I definitely had like the strength and courage to stay with it and stick with it. And probably within the first six weeks of being there, I knew I wanted to run an agency someday.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You are definitely a long term planner.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I don't know that I ever took a job and thought at that moment like I want to run this company.

[Sarah Parsonet]

The 7 year old me knew I wanted to be a CEO someday. I didn't know of what, but I knew I wanted a lead. And then when I was in the agency world, I loved the work that I was doing and I loved the people I was working with and I loved the value system that I was connected to. I went to an all girls school for high school. That was a very important moment for me. I grew up public school co ed. I was disciplined, hardworking, all, all of those things. But I felt like when I was in an all single gender environment, there were no boundaries to what I could do and there were no boundaries to what my fellow students could do. And I definitely think because in high school there can be so many different distractions with a co educational environment that I didn't have any of those things. It was just like, yes, be an athlete, be an academic, be a singer, be a leader. Like you go and you do whatever it is that you want to do. And all of us encouraged each other to do that. Like that's what was really, really special. So fast Forward to Starcom MediaVest Group. Every manager above me, up to Laura Desmond who ran the company, they were all female. I'm like what a gift. Like I definitely think that's just fate. That wasn't planned. But in that environment and rare, and very rare, very rare, especially in 2001 and seeing that never crossed my mind that that couldn't be an option to lead that company someday. And I really loved the work that we were doing. I loved the ability to serve clients. I loved that we operated in teams, that there was like deep collaboration that you got to do so much. I was managing by the time I was 22. That doesn't happen now. So to also add that skill set as a part of my career at a young age, I think like really kept me motivated, kept me intellectually stimulated. And eventually by the age of 33 I was running Universal McCann.

[Marianne Banakaram]

And isn't that incredible?

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah. When I didn't back down from my dad, I didn't know the that 33 year old me was going to be running a media agency at some point. But I did know that it was the right decision.

[Marianne Banakaram]

It sounds easy as I listen to you. I mean I know it wasn't easy, but it does sound easy, right? You make this decision, you go against your father and it's just so easy. You take the job, you're running, you know, you're managing people, and the next thing you know you're the CEO of the business. Were there messy parts?

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah, there were a lot of messy parts. Without identifying which company at one of the companies that I have been at, I joined and there was a real desire from some people for me not to be there.

[Marianne Banakaram]

And yes, we're all familiar with jobs we've taken that have been in that kind of environment.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Like, that's really hard.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Did you really start going into that.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Job and like, it felt really personal. And I was like. I was like, why? But. But were you just like, you don't know me?

[Marianne Banakaram]

Like, didn't that feel terrible?

[Sarah Parsonet]

It felt awful and it felt. I was, yes. So it's like every day you're like waking up and you're like, I could do this. Like, can I? Yes, I can.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Maybe I can't.

[Sarah Parsonet]

What I wound up getting to this is like the self coaching and the resilience and coping components. That particular situation. I was running a team of about a thousand people and there were three people who did not want me in this particular role. So I was like, lead for the 997, not for the 3. That was a really pivotal moment for me is like, I'm not gonna let others pull me down or make me scared when I don't wanna play that game. I'm gonna show up for who I am. And all these other people that are looking for that same thing, not for these other.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Was that you could turn to. That was a safe space in that moment. Because it's a lot when they're out to get you.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes. I had two people that were unbelievable sounding boards. And I think that's. It's a really good point. Like you're not alone in any of these situations. And this happens at all levels of organizations. So many jobs, like I'm sure your listeners there are many people are gonna be like, yeah, I've felt that. I've felt like this person was trying to take me down and I don't know why they were trying to take me down. And again, six months success of teams and companies is not a zero sum game. But some people think that. And so it can.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Some people feel managed that way.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah. And those that are on the other side of that, it can feel really isolating and lonely and personal. And personal. And so I think Finding a safe space to talk to folks like I come around to. I'm going to manage and lead for these 997 people and show up for them each day, not show up for these three. But I needed to talk through that with her.

[Marianne Banakaram]

How long did you last or how long did you say to yourself, I'm going to put myself through that? Because that's always an equation, right?

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah. Yes.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I mean there's a part of me that's like, I'll show you.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Because I'm not good with the bully.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah.

[Marianne Banakaram]

But on the flip side, there is a cost that you pay to demonstrate that resilience, like an added cost to the complexity of the business you're running.

[Sarah Parsonet]

If you haven't resolved it in a three month time frame, like action needs to be taken, then that's essentially what occurred. I was like, this is what I'm looking for. Can we find some common purpose and common value and march forward? And we were able to do that, which is great.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Wow.

[Sarah Parsonet]

But that isn't always happen. I do have a very clear set of principles and values that I operate under and I share those often with teams. And you're gonna have people that don't necessarily align to those things. Like oddly, you would think that inclusivity and psychological safety would be a thing that all leaders can like wrap their arms around, but not everybod. That's the world of business after all. Yes, exactly. Right.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So you talk a lot about values. What are your values?

[Sarah Parsonet]

I think about things in terms of kindness, integrity, fairness, being tough and being inclusive.

[Marianne Banakaram]

And do you use that sort of as a framework to make decisions?

[Sarah Parsonet]

Absolutely. I also use the principles of evidence based decisioning. So like I'm, I will not debate beliefs, I will only debate principles and evidence. And I think that helps to get people into a much closer alignment. But my value system, I can tell when like there's an integrity breach, I can tell when there's a fairness breach. I can tell when inclusion and respecting and bringing in diverse perspectives and opinions are, is broken.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So you have some things that are non negotiable.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes, very well said.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So it's interesting when I looked at your background, right, you have moved a bunch of different jobs and I think I said I too had made a lot of moves. In fact I also even tried different industries and people are always like, how were you able to do that? And in some ways it was also not particularly accepted, you know, in my era where people were like, you're a job switcher. But for me I also had sort of these set of values, and so when it felt like something was off, I was willing to move right. As opposed to be like, I'm just gonna trudge on through. I noticed that about yours because you, you know, you do Starcom. You go to Facebook and you chase learning.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Which is an interesting thing. Why do you think you chase that?

[Sarah Parsonet]

I am very motivated by learning, and I'm very motivated by the value system that I'm connected to. So when those two things break in any way, then I feel like I do need to make a change. We were laughing beforehand, like, especially in the beginning of my career, there was question of, like, why are you jumping? And is that what's required to be successful? I don't think so. I firmly believe in loyalty to companies and really sweating, like, the brand value and the equity that you've created at a company for as long as you can meet the company and the company can meet you for a long period of time. Like, my. My first kind of decade of my career was spent at smg and I was getting all of that intellectual stimulation. And then I knew I wanted to run an agency someday. I didn't feel like people had. If I looked at leadership, had the right, like, product capabilities, tech capabilities, social media capabilities. So I'm not motivated by money, but I am motivated by learning, and I'm not motivated by title. Even though I wanted to be a CEO at a young age, I'm motivated by leading. So this is when I took the job at Facebook, which was the second time that my dad said was the worst decision I've ever made in my entire career.

[Marianne Banakaram]

What is Facebook at? People were thinking, yes.

[Sarah Parsonet]

He's like. He's like, I've never heard of this company. You're doing really well at this other company and running a really big team. And I don't get this. And you're gonna take a. What he saw as a demotion and be an individual contributor. As a consumer package goods strategist, he, like, just didn't. He did not understand it. And for me, I was like, the value system with SMG was very closely connected, but my ability to learn had stalled. And I think thinking about your career horizontally and, like, the experiences that I pulled into my portfolio of learnings is what makes me successful in my current job and has made me successful in all my other jobs because I have empathy and shared experiences.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You were able in that moment to put ego aside. Yeah, And I just want to pause on that because, listen, people who wanna be leaders, that's a. I mean, it comes with a lot of ego, so that's an unusual trait. So it was definitely a strategic move because you got to understand sort of the social network and tech and product in a different way. But going from leading at a big company to being a single contributor definitely was a sideways demotional move. You could see how your dad would think that.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Absolutely.

[Marianne Banakaram]

What gave you the belief to do that? Because that's messy.

[Sarah Parsonet]

I do trust my instincts.

[Marianne Banakaram]

We're back to that.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah. I process things so quickly, and then I make a decision, and then I'm good.

[Marianne Banakaram]

And then you just move forward, and.

[Sarah Parsonet]

I just move forward.

[Marianne Banakaram]

No regrets.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I want to pause on that. Right. Because it goes back to the theme we had earlier, which is you have this innate ability to trust yourself, and I find that that's so rare. And actually, particularly with the younger generation, because maybe they don't have the enough experience space, or maybe there's just been so much tumult in the world with COVID and all kinds of things where it's been harder to feel that. Yeah, you clearly had that right. So in these moments of transition, of mess, you can be a systems thinker, but then can also really have this sense within you that guides you. Where does that come from? Are your siblings like that?

[Sarah Parsonet]

No. Okay. They are not. I'm the youngest of three, but I operate as the oldest. I think in many ways, my middle brother and I are super close, and he is absolutely brilliant and way smarter than I am. Like, I am. I'm never the smartest person in. In the room. I might be the hardest working person in the room. I might be the kindest person in the room, but I'm definitely not the smartest.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I say that about my sister. She's definitely smarter. She tested better.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes.

[Marianne Banakaram]

But she says to me, you just can't stop working.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes. I think that's what Deva would say. He's like, you just. You can't. You can't. There's no off button, even at home. Like, I'm just constantly, constantly moving.

[Marianne Banakaram]

I'm gonna reorganize the shelf really meanly.

[Sarah Parsonet]

They do.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Okay, so you do Facebook, you do Twitter. I mean, such an interesting journey.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Refinery 29. And now Puck.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So you're finally CEO.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah.

[Marianne Banakaram]

What does that feel like?

[Sarah Parsonet]

Amazing. Not because of the title, but because I'm still learning, and I get to be a part of an organization that is growing and is at such a pivotal moment in scale. John Kelly, the founder, he just had this really. I Think at an important time in the media industry and in the publishing industry, the idea to put journalists at the center of the company and really be talent first. And if you think about legacy media, more often than not, when a publisher wasn't doing well, usually the first people to be laid off were the writers, they were the journalists. And yet they're the product people. Like, in my second half of my career, really primarily spent in technology, I liken our talent to our product and engineering folks who are kind of like the heroes of those companies.

[Marianne Banakaram]

In the world of tech, the engineers were protected.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Absolutely. And so he shifted the model and he's put journalists at the center and. And with that giving them the opportunity to share the stories that they want to share. They are all elite in their own right across categories that we cover, from entertainment to finance to art and the business of fashion.

[Marianne Banakaram]

And by the way, I want to say, as somebody who spent a lot of time in the media business, it's definitely journalist first and journalists with very strong opinions, very strong voices, highly messy. Right At a time of incredible fragmentation in the business.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes.

[Marianne Banakaram]

That's very different than running Starcom or Facebook or Twitter. Like, what brought you to this?

[Sarah Parsonet]

I think for me, when I was going, I took a year off between resigning after the sale of Twitter through to starting at Puck. I still had in the back of my mind this aspiration of like, I feel like I can be a CEO and I've.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You're like, I'm not done. I still have my goal.

[Sarah Parsonet]

I still have my goal. So at this stage, I have run all of revenue at Twitter. I have run. I was like the equivalent of the B2B CMO at Facebook. And so when I was taking that year off, one thing I did do is just meet with lots and lots of people from.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Sorry, I have to go back to that because I know so many people who are going through this transition and when they take time off after having high performing jobs, it's incredibly destabilizing. You know, you go to a party and they refer to you as the former because your current apparently has no value. Your day is not.

[Sarah Parsonet]

It's not the same.

[Marianne Banakaram]

It's not the same. But when you were doing these meetings, and I read that during this period of time, your gap year, that you mastered tennis again and that you made sure you spent time with your children and family and friends and that you did a meeting a day.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So I mean, and I launched a company. Oh, and. And yes, with some other folks. Launch a company of golf and tenniswear. So you were clearly not sitting at home when you did these meetings. Did you say to people, I want to be CEO, like, were they directed calls, or did you just take the call and just be like, hi, I just want to shoot the show?

[Sarah Parsonet]

I would say they were not directed. It was about learning and, like, asking questions, trying to understand what they do. So even though I didn't say directly I want to be CEO, I do think for folks that are as just advice, try to be clear on what it is you are seeking or what you would like to do.

[Marianne Banakaram]

And yet you didn't do that. I just want to point that out.

[Sarah Parsonet]

I did not in terms of the title, but I was very clear in what I was trying to get out of the discussion. Like, I'm not familiar with this space face. Tell me about it. I see for many women that have been, you know, gone through incredible careers, they're like, well, I. I could do this, and I could do this and I could do this. People on the other side of the phone can't figure out where to put you in that. And so this is a guidance that I learned, because I think some executive search firms that I talked to, I was a little bit more like, I could be on a board. I could be a CEO, I could be a cmo. I could run revenue. And they're like, great. What is. What does that mean? How can I help you? Yeah. And so to go back to your. Your question on, like, how I structured my days, I went into this year off with, like, very clear parameters. I wanted to be very present. And anyone that is going through this same sort of transition, it is hard, but it's also such a gift. We have worked in insane hours, insane jobs, giving of ourselves for decades. When are you ever going to get this moment back? And so be a little reflective and selfish in how you want to set the boundaries for that time. Like, I knew I. At some point in time, I was going to go back to work. I didn't know what it was going to be, but I knew that I would and that this period would come to a conclusion. And I didn't want to look back on this year and feel like, like, wow, I didn't get all of it out of it that I wanted to get out of it.

[Marianne Banakaram]

But there had to have been days where you were anxious that maybe you weren't gonna find something, like, oh, my God, maybe it's over.

[Sarah Parsonet]

I got the best advice from a gentleman by the name of Grady Burnett, who is a former Facebook colleague. In any Week it is going to change. He's like, there's gonna be one week where you have five opportunities and you feel like you're killing it. And then the next week all of those are gonna disappear. And then the next week there's going to be two, and then those are going to disappear. So he gave me a roadmap that I could then expect these things. And I saw that play out where it was like, oh, this is really interesting. Oh, wait, nope, that's not available anymore.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So Peck is definitely very different experience. You're at a time of complete chaos in the media business. How is that messy?

[Sarah Parsonet]

The only thing that's inevitable is disruption. And media's experienced tons and tons of disruption and will continue to experience disruption, but so has every technology company. So, I mean, I look back at running all of revenue for Twitter and I went through Covid and social justice movement. We had an ad boycott, like, being sold. Those are really hard, complex, volatile, ambiguous things that are happening. And the media industry is going through the same thing right now. In particular, with the impact of AI and the movement to zero click search. All those things are impacting us in a totally different way. I love it. And I love it because I think opportunity can come from volatility. Right now, we are relearning the growth playbook. Like, how cool. When do you get presented with that in your career where you get to completely shift and create a new paradigm?

[Marianne Banakaram]

My takeaway in listening to that story is that it's really about your attitude because it could be terrifying to somebody.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You take this new job, there's incredible disruption. Your reporters don't hold back, and you're energized by the chaos and the challenge.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yes. Yeah. But go back to parts of my career like the Internet imploded, but I was like, hey, I'm all in on digital. These genuinely are opportunities, but you have.

[Marianne Banakaram]

To approach them as such.

[Sarah Parsonet]

You have to see it as such. You have to see it as such.

[Marianne Banakaram]

It's a reframing in some ways.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Absolutely. And you have to believe in yourself and believe in the team that it's possible to reskill, to upskill, to learn. And I believe everybody can learn. I don't want to do a job that I have done before to end that story of where I was at. At the end of that year off, I had a variety of offers that were very, very similar in that they were like series B, series C, CEO type roles. And then I had a bunch of offers that were very similar to what I had done. In some way, shape or form at Twitter and at Facebook. None of these were appealing to me. Not because they. They weren't awesome and exciting.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You want to learn new things?

[Sarah Parsonet]

I wanted to learn new things.

[Marianne Banakaram]

You can see why I shared your other podcasts that I listened to with my children, because I think you have a lot of great lessons for business, but you're also a wife and a mom. I want to talk about that because as a working mom myself, I mean, that's a juggle. I mean, you give this all to this job, but you also clearly came from a close family and that mattered to you. So what was that like for you?

[Sarah Parsonet]

I had Connor. He is 13 and Dec is 11. Well, and my husband and I, as of this Saturday, will have been married 17 years. We have a really great partnership and our roles have evolved a lot too. Like, we both were two working individuals, and then we were two working, traveling parents. We had an au pair at one point in time. I think that is really important to kind of be on the same page and just always check in with each other. Like, hey, is this. Are you getting what you need? Am I getting what I need? Like, are the kids and our family getting what they need? And that's a winding road. Like, it's never going to be perfect. So the communication part really matters in that I think with my kids, when I started early in my career, I had the privilege of some leaders who were, you know, 30 years my senior sharing that they had had multiple divorces, didn't know their kids, and that that was something that they regretted. I will always be appreciative of that vulnerability at that time, because when we first had Connor, I was very clear on setting boundaries. My identity is not actually connected to any title or any job, which it's a huge part of me, but it is not my identity. No company is going to hug you 10 years from now. I'm very clear on who is going to hug me 10 years from now. That's my husband, and that is my two boys. What that means is you do have to be very clear in the articulation of how that stuff can work. My job requiring me to travel internationally, I would never be anywhere for longer than 48 hours. Now give me a schedule that is NonStop for those 48 hours, but I will be on a plane and I will be back home by Friday at 6am so that I can take my kids to school.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So you clearly had a system, as we all were forced to do in order to survive, sort of. And yet there were times where it didn't work that way.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Right.

[Marianne Banakaram]

There were times where I was like, oh, my God, should I quit because it's not working.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So there had to have been messy.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Parts during, like, the middle of some of the, like, most challenging jobs that I've had. Covid hit my kids were kindergarten and second grade. And then we moved into a world where I didn't travel for four years.

[Marianne Banakaram]

That's amazing.

[Sarah Parsonet]

I mean, it was amazing. And while I would never wish a global pandemic on the world in order to, like, have that ability to, like, really be present, it was. Was such a blessing, I think, where the messy parts and it wasn't. There was a lot of messiness and share the au pair story where we had to evacuate our house. Like there were messy parts. But I think the dynamic of trying to balance being a high performing executive and like a deeply present mom, I was given, like a real gift that allowed me to do that. There were still crazy global hours and, you know, I mean, there was a.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Lot of intensity to my crazy was on display. Play to the family as opposed to hidden in the hotel room.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Exactly.

[Marianne Banakaram]

So we end the podcast with rapid fire. So you're ready?

[Sarah Parsonet]

I am.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Okay. Karaoke or walk on song? What would you pick and what would it be?

[Sarah Parsonet]

Walk on song. I think it would be Unstoppable by Sia. And I only say that because Deck is a baseball player and I had to choose a walk on song for him and that's what I chose. And he was so embarrassed.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Amazing, because I love embarrassing my children and also kind of love Sia. The food you'd bring to a potluck.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Whispering angel.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Oh, Rose.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah.

[Marianne Banakaram]

An alternative career you would have chosen.

[Sarah Parsonet]

I would teach.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Preschool, not investment banking. What are you reading, listening or watching?

[Sarah Parsonet]

I just finished the Tell, which was Amy Griffin's book. Yeah. Exceptional. And I'm also reading. I was mentioning Adam Grant before I'm reading Hidden potential.

[Marianne Banakaram]

What would people who know you be surprised to learn about you?

[Sarah Parsonet]

I am a horrible cook.

[Marianne Banakaram]

What is one piece of advice you'd leave everyone with?

[Sarah Parsonet]

I would say that kindness is not just a value, it's actually a structural force. I've been asked to come back to three different companies, and it is not because I am the smartest person in the room. It's because of the way that I made people feel when I left the room. And I think that our world could use a little more kindness.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Kind of a perfect ending because I think we could all use a little bit more kindness in this world.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Yeah.

[Marianne Banakaram]

Thank you so much for coming on and for, you know, sharing so openly.

[Sarah Parsonet]

Thank you. This was awesome. I appreciate it.