← The Messy Parts
The Messy Parts
She Wanted to Be a Supreme Court Justice. Until One Class Changed Everything.
00:40:04
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- [00:00]
A
Like, I'm never going to get bored. I'm always going to, like, look at this canvas, this blank white canvas, and be terrified in some way. And I thought how fascinating that every day could be brand new. I think when I was sitting in that basement painting those paintings and I was alone and sitting with myself and listening to music, you know, I felt it. I felt my calling. And it's hard to find. I know that it's hard to find. I know so many people are listening
- [00:27]
B
to you and feeling stressed. Like, do I have my calling? Should I be opening and cracking myself open? Today we're going to talk about being foolish enough to go for it. The art of good living and the importance of showing up early. You're going to meet C.E. finley. She's a renowned artist. She does incredible large scale murals and she also got famous by doing wallpaper dumpsters. That's something you're going to want to Google afterwards. This is a great conversation and I can't wait for you to listen. Well, Finley, welcome to the blue couch. Thank you. Thank you for coming on. We like to always start at the very beginning because I think so much of our lives is still working out, whatever happened to us as kids. So, you know, tell us about the young fingling because you did not grow up in New York.
- [01:16]
A
I grew up in central Missouri in the middle of nowhere. I hated it and I wanted to be a Supreme Court justice. That was my childhood.
- [01:25]
B
Siblings? Did you have siblings?
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A
I have an older brother who wanted nothing to do with me. He's five years older and we lived in two separate universes.
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B
Does he still want to have nothing to do with you?
- [01:34]
A
I mean, he's around and I sent his kids some gifts just this week actually. And, you know, I love him, but I think I was just in my own world of living in a small town. My parents had a beautiful love story and I was very loved. So I had that going for me as a kid. But yeah, I think I was world building, but I was alone. I was by myself. There were no kids in my neighborhood.
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B
What does world building mean?
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A
You mean like, you know, my backyard was like tents and, you know, these lilac bushes that were hollowed out. I had like animals and gardening and, you know, I was just always on my bicycle. I built ramps alone, by myself at like 11 and 12 years old, using power tools, which I had no business using at all. These things were terrifying. And definitely death traps. No helmets. It was the 80s.
- [02:24]
B
And did your parents think that was confusing or were they supportive of that
- [02:28]
A
everybody in my family was allowed to do their own thing. You know, my dad had a business and he was an entrepreneur, and he was going for it. My mother was. Worked with him a little bit and then stay at home with us. But she's very philanthropic, so she was always the president of the library board, women's service league. There was also mahjong and bridge club and everything. All the ladies always convening at ours with, you know, beautiful snacks everywhere.
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B
Like, what made you decide to, like, be a Supreme Court justice? Like, what made you.
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A
What.
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B
What interested you in law?
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A
I just am such a person that is, like, deeply committed to fairness. As a young person, I saw injustices and tried to write them wherever I could at great peril to myself, actually.
- [03:10]
B
Was your childhood messy? Because it kind of sounds idyllic.
- [03:14]
A
Well, in some ways it was idyllic, but I really felt so. I mean, maybe everyone feels like this, but I felt so outsider growing up in Sedalia, Missouri. My father was from Nashville, my mother was from Los Angeles. Two very cool places. And the people that I was around, they all had grown up together. Their families knew each other. We. We knew no one. And we were sort of othered already because we were like the weird people from out of town.
- [03:39]
B
What made you then decide? Because interest and fairness. And so that made you think you wanted to be a lawyer or a judge?
- [03:46]
A
I love the theater, and I really wanted to be a theater person, but it really wasn't my calling. But then I found debate, and I became very good at debate. And I really love to, like, you know, basically kick ass of these young men, specifically from St. Louis and Kansas City. And I. I was really good, and I went really far with the debate. So that's when it really started to kick in. I never smoked, I never drank. I never took any drugs in high school because I was like, well, if I am gonna be a Supreme Court justice, they can't have anything on me. I mean, I was really, like, hyper focused on this.
- [04:18]
B
That's so interesting. That's so interesting. I think, as a young kid. And I also. I mean, I was even more other than you in the sense that I wasn't from here and we'd immigrated here. But I also was very conscious of the choices I made with this idea that I didn't want them to get in my way.
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A
Exactly.
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B
Later.
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A
Same. And what was that? I don't know how we were hatched like that, but.
- [04:39]
B
Well, I thought maybe I would run for office. I don't even know why I Thought that.
- [04:43]
A
I thought I would need to be running for appellate court judge in the state of Missouri before, you know, I mean, I have this whole thing worked out in my mind.
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B
Well, you know, it's funny, I don't think I had messy parts, like, personally, right. Because I was so, like, straight and narrow in some ways. But I had a lot of messy parts around me. Did you have messy parts around you?
- [05:03]
A
No. I think really I did have a beautiful childhood with my family. And we were really just loved and adored and that. That's a beautiful thing. Otherwise, I mean, central Missouri is like a cultural void. There's nothing there. And so I just had to make it up.
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B
So you decide at some point to not be a Supreme Court justice. I like that. At, you know, 12.
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A
This is when it gets messy. This is when it gets really messy.
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B
Okay, let's hear.
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A
So I'm at the University of Missouri. I'm in student government. I'm seeing the people that are going to travel with me to law school and I'm like, not interested. I feel there's a lot of hypocrisy happening. There are just. There's. These are like, not the. Not my people. I start to actually read a law brief and I was like, dry. I felt like the moisture leave my body and I thought, oh, my God, I have to do something. A friend of mine helped me take this class called the Creative Process. This woman was like a magician. She was a musician. She had a PhD in music, PhD in psychology. She was fantastic. She had us move pendulums with our mind. We journaled, we created collages, we did performances.
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B
I mean, I'm just trying to put these two things together. Law brief and moving Pendulums at the same time.
- [06:15]
A
I'm reading the law brief. I take this class called the Creative Process. It's for people who are, like, overly thinking about their careers to like, expand the creative thinking. This lady cracked me open. I mean, in that class, I dated a woman, I became an artist. I realized I could never take another semester without creativity in my life.
- [06:36]
B
I'm sorry, There's a lot going on right in that. Like, what exactly happened? It was a one semester class.
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A
One semester class. Dr. Betty Scott.
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B
Where is she now?
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A
I don't know. She was much older when I took that class. She may have passed away, but the last time I talked to her, I had a huge show in LA and she was trying to come. I just reached out to her out of the blue and she was thrilled and I sent her my work. I mean, she was over the moon for me. So I didn't speak to her for decades. And then I did find her, and I thanked her deeply because she changed my life. So then I take this, and then
- [07:10]
B
you also discover, well, you're dating a woman. How did your family take that?
- [07:14]
A
Well, I didn't really talk to them about that. That's way later. The fun part is that the next semester, I was like, I'm going to take a class at Columbia College outside of my university, because I didn't want it to affect my gpa. I'm going to take a painting class. Well, I take this painting class, and I make 32 paintings in the basement of this house that I'm living in. I mean, it was like a calling from the great beyond, and I just had to do it. So the messy parts were I went to. For the first time in my life, I really was having, like, a. Like a breakdown. I didn't know what to do because, you know, I was so forward with my, you know, Supreme Court Justice. That was my whole identity. And now I was like, oh, my God, I'm an artist, and I have to figure out what to do. So I went to one session with this very cool, like, you know, free school psychoanalyst or something. You know, he listened to me very deeply. And then he said at the end of the session, I think you need to apply to art college. How long will it take you to put the application in the mail? And I said, two weeks. He's like, come back and see me. I applied to Pratt Institute, and randomly, I don't know how, honestly, I got in. I moved to New City.
- [08:19]
B
How did you tell your parents?
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A
Well, so that's the messy part. So I applied. I didn't tell them. They think I'm about to graduate from the University of Missouri and go to law school at the University of Missouri.
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B
How far along were you? Like a junior?
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A
Three years in.
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B
Three years in?
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A
Yeah. And so I go home, you know, with tons of tears. I mean, the whole. My dad left the room. He didn't speak to me for, like, a month. It was. It was a lot of drama, and I was so stressed out. It was so upsetting. My mom and I would, like, stay up late and watch tv. And then on the way upstairs, because she never really went against my dad. She was cool, but she was like, it is exciting, isn't it? You know, that you're going to art college, so.
- [08:59]
B
But they never said, like, we won't support you.
- [09:01]
A
Well, they cut me off. So I had to get, like, some loans and, like, figure it all out. The second year, I ended up getting a scholarship for most of it to pay for the. So I had to go all the way back to undergraduate and start again.
- [09:13]
B
I mean, I was definitely looking for a calling, and I think there's so much literature around finding your calling, your purpose, you know, but it was hard to find. Like, I. I didn't have the class. I'm like, where was that class in my path? Cause maybe I needed to have been broken open. I don't know. But for people who are going through this struggle, trying to figure out deciding to, you know, sort of break free from the expectations of your family, much less society, and take this other path, if somebody's listening and sort of thinking about that question for themselves, what advice do you have for them, short of taking this woman's class, which we all need to go find her now.
- [09:50]
A
Dr. Betty Scott. We all need Dr. Betty Scott. But I think for me, it's like an energetic thread. It's actually what makes you feel good and what lights you up is the thing to follow. And that often is explained as the still, small voice. I mean, it was not apparent to me at all until I took this class and then sat in that studio and painted. I mean, it was pouring out of me, and it just. And I thought, oh, my God, this is so hard. Like, I'm never going to get bored. I'm always going to, like, look at this canvas, this blank white canvas, and be terrified in some way. And I thought, how fascinating that every day could be brand new. I think sometimes when people, younger people asking me, you know, how to find it, how to do it, you really have to think about how you feel and get out of that mindset of, like, what everybody else wants you to do. It doesn't work, and it's painful either way. So you might as well do the thing that feels good to you, but that requires that you really sit with yourself. I think when I was sitting in that basement painting those paintings and I was alone and sitting with myself and listening to music, you know, I felt it. I felt my calling. And it's hard to find. I know that it's hard to find. I know so many people.
- [11:08]
B
I'm listening to you and feeling stressed. Like, do I have my calling? Should I be opening and cracking myself open?
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A
And then also, don't worry about it. Like, you have to be foolish enough to just try things.
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B
Many of us, particularly, I think in my generation, we might have made sacrifices to get to wherever we had to get to pay bills or whatever. But for someone who's thinking about pivoting, it's almost like you can have permission to find the joy. You know what I mean? Like, you can pivot.
- [11:35]
A
What's the point if you don't? I mean, really, like, what are we doing if we're not going for it? Because this is it. This is all you got. I am deeply foolish. Like, that is one thing. That is not my problem. I am not scared to try.
- [11:49]
B
Because if I listen to the story as an outsider, which I am, it seems so easy. Like, you know, I'm like, oh, that sounds so easy. She was cracked open. And then she went home and told her parents, and they weren't going to support her, but somehow she still ended up paying for herself to go. And then she gets a scholarship. Like, pretty easy.
- [12:09]
A
It sounds easy, but it was not easy. Like, it was terrifying and terrible and, like, this whole world that I built with. And with so much support of my father, who I loved so deeply. I mean, the level of disappointment, we would actually, as a family, make a joke when I would come home from. I mean, major successes in my career as an artist and, you know, like, New York Times, half a page. My dad would, within 30 minutes of me being there. We would time it and laugh. I'll pay for you to go to law school. When are you gonna go to law school? When are you gonna stop all this nonsense and, like, get back to it? I mean, he never let it go until maybe, like, I think, like, maybe 18 months before he died.
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B
So that had to have been hard.
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A
I mean, he was hard on me, but, like, I loved that. It is a part of my excellence and a part of my intensity. Like, I. Which I inherited from him. I mean, he was just so intense. He got up every morning at 5. 5. He loved the sunrise. He was in pressed clothes, like, building his business, and he just loved it.
- [13:11]
B
So you get to Pratt, to New York all of a sudden. Had you been to New York before?
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A
I came once for a portfolio day. My mom drove me in her Suburban with my grandmother.
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B
For how long did that take?
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A
I don't know. Like, two days. And, like, yeah, they literally drove me to Pratt, which at that time was 1996 or something, that Fort Greene was not as cool as it is right now. And they were like, are you sure this is the right place? Yeah, I think I. I can't remember. I think that was the first time that I ever went to New York.
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B
And so what was the experience of coming To New York.
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A
Like, for you, I mean, everything. It's all I ever wanted. I mean, when I was young, I got a. You know, I had a subscription to Interview magazine. I followed Madonna and Andy Warhol, like, religiously. Keith Haring, like, you know, I was just completely obsessed as a young person with all of the New York's downtown scene. I couldn't believe my good fortune. And I was also, again, a little bit weird because I was, like, from the Midwest and, like, not. I wasn't prepared. But thank God I had a couple years of college before because I did see a lot of young people being gobbled up by the city.
- [14:15]
B
And so walk us through sort of that phase and how you became sort of the successful artist.
- [14:20]
A
My good fortune was that I had an amazing class of students that I was around. Mickalene Thomas. And I graduated together. Swoon. And I graduated together.
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B
You're gonna have to tell everybody who all these names are.
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A
Just really famous. Cool art today. Today, yeah. Happened to be dear friends of mine. And, you know, we were all in it together. I have this part of me that is always, like, trying to create community and pull people together and also show. Because, you know, you're not making these things because you don't want people to see them. And I was always looking for opportunities at the university or wherever, in coffee shops to, like, put the work up and. But also went together with other people.
- [14:56]
B
Like, so you're like, student government skills came in handy.
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A
Hardcore. The campaigning. Yeah. You know, the pr, the, like, writing the press release. Like, all of these things all came in handy. Yeah. And that's a little difference that I have, I think, that other people in the art world don't have. Which is why I think I try to give that back to people. Because a lot of artists have a personality that's very introverted and they're not good at going to market. They're not good at telling their story or having a conversation or being in the mix of people or putting, you know, putting it together. They're very good at, like, their alone, solitude time. And I always like to find those introverts and, like, bring them out into the light.
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B
You go to Pratt and then you go to California, and then you end up in Rome.
- [15:40]
A
Well, an important piece is that I worked for Ridley Scott at Black Dog Art in Film. Yeah. After Pratt, because that's the piece that helps me with the murals. So I start scenic painting.
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B
Sorry. How do you end up working for Ridley Scott? And by the way, tell people who Ridley Scott is, who May not know Ridley.
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A
Ridley Scott is the director of Gladiator, and he's a very cool British guy, but he also is known for this, like, wild temperament. But he's super cool. And he had this commercial company in New York, in SoHo at that time that was music videos, which were very big in the early aughts and commercials, some films. But I just got a job as an intern my senior year of Pratt, and then I ended up working there. Started paing, you know, got on my own job. So I was doing, like, a lot of music videos for, like, Mary J. Blige, Wyatt Clefjie, like, as a production person. Yeah.
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B
You actually go to Pratt for art. How do you then pivot into film at all?
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A
Well, because of my Midwest, you know, blue collar upbringing, I thought I needed to do something in the arts that also would pay the bills.
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B
Oh, I see.
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A
So I wanted to be a production designer. That was my big idea at the end of art college because I was in the painting department. And I'm gonna get into the film industry so I can join the union and I can have, like, have my. Have health insurance, have the money set, you know, pay the bills. And so I'm going along in that world, and I'm really starting to. To get going because I'm a production assistant. Then I'm working with the producers, and I'm learning how to line produce. Now I'm organizing my own art department. I've done scenic painting, styling. I assisted every single department to try to figure it out. Went into coordinating the art department again, another producer piece, and then I start scenic painting, and. And I start blowing things up. Somebody gives you a little sketch of a Watteau painting, and they're like, we want this 12ft, and, like, do it.
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B
What's the advice you have for somebody who's in college interning to actually then pivot and land the job in a market that's quite difficult in those worlds.
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A
It's all about who you know. Because my name was Finley, it was a little bit unique. That helped me a little bit. But I would just always hang out. I was early. I would show up early. I would have coffee with the producers. I would try to see who was the cool person that I wanted to talk to and at least say hello, show my face. And then I would stay late and I would work really hard, and I would try to, like, show them that I was, like, the one.
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B
But also, you have to actually get the work done, because if they know you but you're not delivering, I Don't even.
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A
That's not even in this realm of possibilities. You don't have to.
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B
I mean, that's a good tip for people.
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A
Yeah, you have to work hard.
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B
What came naturally to you does not mean, comes naturally to everybody else.
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A
I know. And also be a person of your word.
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B
What does that mean?
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A
If you say you're gonna show up for something, then show up for something. I mean, it's not really that hard. Especially when you're young and you need to make a name for yourself or you're trying to meet people that can help you. I mean, these are just like chapter one page. One sentence one. Show up. Show up on time and do a
- [18:34]
B
good job and work hard. Okay, so now you're Ridley Scott.
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A
So then 911 happens. So I start building. I'm away from Ridley Scott. I'm doing my own thing. I'm hired for my own commercial, shoots my own music video.
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B
And what are you doing there? Are you doing set design or are you doing production?
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A
I've never been a production designer ever. But that was my. I was going towards that and I was Art department coordinating, sort of. The next stop is production design. And 911 happened and all the work dried up. There was nothing for years here, or at least two years. And that was a huge thing.
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B
How did that feel?
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A
Well, I walked through it. So not great. I mean, I was in the train at that time that was underground. I mean, people were coming down into the train with dust on them. And the. The person on the MTA was like, we have got to leave the station. I mean, it was scary. Anyway, so that dried it up and I just thought, okay, like I have to change my plan. So I went to work at the Soho House. I mean, a couple years later I became a high end bartender. And at the same time I just kept painting.
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B
I'm sorry, what?
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A
Cause I needed money.
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B
Right. And so what did that feel like?
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A
It felt like a bitter pill to swallow. And I felt like I hated it. And I felt like I was not in my right place.
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B
We all have done jobs we hate. Cause we need to. What's the lesson in that?
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A
Get the plan going. So I, at the same time, I'm applying to graduate school because I was just like, I'm just gonna keep painting. And that's why I was bartending, so I could free up my days and time to work in the light so that I could, you know, just continue to paint.
- [20:13]
B
So you get to California and what happens?
- [20:16]
A
You know, I went to Pratt Institute, which is like this Amazing art school. And then I went to Cal State Long beach, which is very much like the blue collar kids. And it's a real university.
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B
Skater school.
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A
Yeah. And it's. I mean, it's a great university, but the art department is not like UCLA or CalArts. And they had this gorgeous gallery complex, but not great studios. And, you know, like, there's a lot.
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B
Why did you pick that school?
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A
I got a scholarship. I actually wanted to go to Goldsmiths, but there was no money to go to London.
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B
Okay, so this is a good note. You go to the place that you
- [20:48]
A
can afford, which is something actually of a messy part that I often tell people because I did a major life decision based on money. And I don't think you should ever do that because I did have a pretty hefty loan from Pratt and I did pay it down. And I kind of wish I would have gone to Goldsmiths, but who knows?
- [21:06]
B
But that's easy to say now in retrospect.
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A
But also, I learned a lot at Cal State Long beach because I really was not that inspired there. And I thought I was gonna live this glorious scholarship life where I was in my painting studio every day. And it turned out that I produced a big show that's now still going because I wasn't finding what I needed there.
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B
But. So you created that, but that's actually a lesson.
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A
Yeah, I know all the lessons.
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B
So it's interesting because I think Malcolm Gladwell always talks about sort of this idea of choice. And actually you went to a place where you could shine, whereas you could have been one of many at Goldsmith. In some ways, that's true. I didn't think maybe it actually produced the producing in you in that sense.
- [21:49]
A
It did, it did. I always try to make the best out of any situation I'm in. So I wasn't feeling great there. And I was looking around and they have this multimillion dollar gallery complex. I mean, it is glorious. There are fountains and this courtyard, you know, indoor, outdoor, like everything you want of la. And I thought, wow, we really have a good thing going here at Cal State Long beach with this gallery system. We should do a big juried exhibition of all the graduate schools. Because that's another thing about Southern California. All of the artists are there. And then we opened our studios. So all of the art world elite came to see this young talent. And. And it's actually in its 20 something year now. Like they're still doing it and still ongoing.
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B
What is it about you that is interested in building community? Because, you know you could be an artist who stays very much in their lane and is only interested in competing to win.
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A
I think it goes back to my childhood when I was very alone. I wanted to be popular. I wanted to have people. I wanted to have the party and the fun and bring everybody together. I think I always felt like it should be like that.
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B
So for people who are afraid of hosting, because you're clearly not afraid of hosting.
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A
I love hosting and my mom's a
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B
great host because I think today so many people are feeling sort of isolated or lonely. And, you know, hosting is also something I love doing. And it's a way, when you're new, to begin to build community, but it's hard for people.
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A
Hosting is all about preparation, and so that when you open your door to friends and family and people coming over, everything is finished. And then that. That way you can enjoy. And as a host, your job is to provide this beautiful container where there are snacks and refreshments. And then you also introduce people, oh, this is our new friend. This is. And find out what happens. Who knows? I mean, some people don't get along. Some people get along. You know, I love it when people make best friends at one of my parties or like an event or something.
- [23:45]
B
Well, I think that's the key to good hosting. Do you think of hosting as an art form?
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A
I do. And actually, my friend Jessica Mitrani, who's an amazing host, she actually is doing this conversation around hosting in the world of art. And I very. I really identify with that. And I think that the Every Woman Biennial, the project that I work on, I think of that as a work of art. Like, it's a gift and a work of art. The art of good living. It's in line with that ethos.
- [24:15]
B
So, okay, so take us from California to Rome.
- [24:19]
A
So I'm living in Southern California. I'm finished with my schooling, and I am really struggling. I'm the assistant curator at the Torrance Art Museum. I'm dating someone. There's a heartbreak. I am in a drive by. I'm in a drive by shooting, which I went to.
- [24:36]
B
I'm sorry, excuse me.
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A
I went to a dinner party in la.
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B
Are you in Torrance?
- [24:40]
A
In la, I had to hit the deck. There was a drive by shooting. Someone was shot outside. I had to hold a towel on a bullet wound. And I mean, in my world, this is. My mind is blowing. I'm. I'm thinking, like, something is deeply wrong. Then the same week, my car is broken into and my house is broken into. So a Friend of mine came back. This is. This is a complicated story. I have to figure out how to tell it. But basically, I get a $10,000 artist grant from a woman in Hungary, and
- [25:12]
B
she says, how does that happen?
- [25:14]
A
Through friends? It was a private thing, but it was because I was struggling so much. So I had the heartbreak. I had the drive by shooting, I had the house break in, and my car got broken into. I mean, that's probably all happening in a month. And I'm working on a job that
- [25:27]
B
I'm once again miserable at. Okay, that's a good, messy part.
- [25:32]
A
And this is one of the messiest. There's so many messy parts, but that's a really good one. And my friend is like, what do you want to do to start your new life with this grant? And I said, I want to go to Art Basel in Switzerland, and I just want to see everything of the world of art. So I went there. I was traveling with a friend, and she had friends in Milan and Rome. So I went to Milan and then we went to Rome. When I arrived in Rome, I entered into the most beautiful apartment I think I've ever been in. It was Claudio and Atelio. There were a couple, and Atelio is a very famous fashion designer at the Guy Matillo fashion house. So my friend's talking to Claudio, her friend, and Atelio, who's the older boyfriend, and I sit down, we talk for 13 hours. We arrived early in the morning. We had breakfast, lunch and dinner. He asked to see every single thing of my artwork, all of my website, and went through meticulously, everything. Is there anything else? Is there anything else? The next morning, his maid wakes me up with a beautiful cup of espresso, just me, and says, can you come outside? Atelier wants to talk to you on the terrace. He said, do you see that apartment over there? We own that building, and a lot of the young designers live there. And I want you to stay here and paint on canvas and be our art resident. I want you to live in Italy with me. And I said, are you serious?
- [26:52]
B
Who doesn't want this story to happen to them?
- [26:55]
A
The magic door opened, okay?
- [26:57]
B
But there's a lesson in that, because the magic door would not have happened if you hadn't. If you'd stayed in bed just visualizing and making collages, right?
- [27:05]
A
That's right. Also, I think it was a pain point. It was the bra. It was all that stuff that was going on in LA that I. It was so clear to me that when he offered that, I knew I Had to say yes because I didn't said no. I did not want to go back there.
- [27:21]
B
Yeah.
- [27:22]
A
And so I moved into this apartment. I had a whole glorious, beautiful apartment with a giant terrace in Maliana, Rome. And I. Yeah. And everything changed.
- [27:34]
B
Was that the big pivot moment in your career?
- [27:36]
A
That is a huge pivot moment in my career. Everything changed because I had the little pile of money and because I had the support. And, you know, Atelio is. He changed everything because also the way he sees the world, the level of beauty, his heart and soul, I mean, he's the person who can fix your scarf and, like, transform everything. He's magic and he makes beautiful clothes. But he's also a painter and an artist and just a really interesting person who has lived all over the world and done all kinds of really cool things. And to have his confidence.
- [28:15]
B
So having someone believe in you, I
- [28:17]
A
mean, this was everything for me. And also, not only believe in me, but give me the space and time to create. I mean, Claudio made every dinner that I ate for two years. And I had an Italian family, and I lived like an Italian. You know, there's a timetable to everything. There's breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and there's connection and conversation. We had these long, beautiful dinners, and Atelier would make up a game every single night that we played. I mean, this is the magic of this person. And he believed in me. And he also challenged me to make 20 paintings in a month and that he would give me a little, like a €500 note if I did it. And I did it, which was really hard. And I mean, I kept getting smaller and smaller as the month went on. But I did. I made 20 paintings in a month, which completely changed everything for my artwork. And then I started making huge paintings.
- [29:06]
B
And that's really the thing that transformed your art, too.
- [29:09]
A
Yeah. Yep. And I just had that time and space, and I didn't speak the language, which actually helped me because I'm such a chatty person. And I always jump in to help people. I think also just being alone in my own solitude and learning that piece of solitude was. It was a deeply important part of my process.
- [29:29]
B
And so as an artist, you're really known for your murals.
- [29:33]
A
Yeah, murals. Every Woman Biennial, Wallpaper Dumpster, I think, in that order.
- [29:38]
B
And Wallpaper Dumpster came out of Rome.
- [29:40]
A
Came out of Cal State Long Beach a little bit. I did it at Cal State Long beach as a project, and I was like. I thought it was so cool. And I wallpapered this dumpster on campus. And I brought the whole graduate class. You know, my interdisciplinary media class. I was like, you guys, like, you know, I'm presenting my work. I'm thinking, this is going to have a great critique. We're going to have, like, this awesome conversation. And everyone was like, I don't know. It's all right, I guess. And so I didn't think anything of it. I just thought. I thought it was brilliant. But then all the wind fell out of my sail, so I didn't think about it.
- [30:11]
B
But how did you pick yourself up after that?
- [30:14]
A
I just kept making weird stuff, and it was very deflating, actually. And I didn't wallpaper a dumpster for over a year after that. But I brought that wallpaper eventually that I had from my set department days. I had two rolls of wallpaper, which you can't do anything with except for wallpaper, a dumpster. And I brought it to Rome. And there were two dumpsters outside of my apartment in Rome. And I did both one night in the middle of the night, guerrilla style. And that is when people really started to get it, because the Italians totally got it. Oh, my God. They loved was in the newspaper, like people. The dump truck would stop, the guy would, like, buy me a coffee, like, stop traffic. We did it at the Coliseum.
- [30:56]
B
I think a lesson in this is changing your environment.
- [31:00]
A
Travel has been very eye opening and necessary. A necessary part of my career in life.
- [31:07]
B
In your case, it was an international thing. But really, this ability to step away and regroup.
- [31:12]
A
And I believe that a lot in New York, you have to get out quarterly. That is my advice to young people in New York. Get out quarterly. Even if you just go upstate, even if you go to Philadelphia, go to Wycott, get on the train, get out. It's such a pressure cooker. You become a cog in a wheel, and you need to step out and, like, regroup, see a different way of being, and then come back in. I just think it's important. It's also what I do in my art. I turn my art upside down, I look at it in a mirror. I go out and look at a tree, and then I come back and look at it. Just shake it up. Shake up your perspective.
- [31:43]
B
And so where does the success really begin to build? Is it in Rome?
- [31:47]
A
In Rome, I think the. The beginning of that was the wallpaper dumpster project. So I got in La Republica, I brought it to New York. I had a really good friend who was a fantastic publicist, James P. Campbell. And he really put the word out, got The New York Times article for wallpapering the dumpster. And then things really start to pick up. I got a big gig. At the time. It was aol.
- [32:13]
B
Cause you actually did work with commercial partners.
- [32:16]
A
Yeah, so I've never had that traditional gallery relationship where, you know, what they teach you at Pratt, you're supposed to have. I never had that really. So I've always. Always just hustling, selling my work. Because my dad was an entrepreneur and taught me, you know, how to chat with people about things. So I always tried to. I tried to sell things to people that I knew that would come to the studio, fall in love with me, maybe buy a painting, if possible. And then I tried to work commercially as much as I could. So I got a gig with aol, I think, because of the New York Times thing. I got a thing with Target and Converse, worked with them. You know that now you're building a little bit of publicity and steam. The paintings are selling a little bit better. But I've always, you know, it. It's hard like that. That is the ultimate messy part of my life is just this inconsistent income. Up and down is. Has. Has really been deeply challenging. Like, still always actually, like, success.
- [33:11]
B
New York Times article. But still hard to pay the bills.
- [33:13]
A
Yeah. But it always works out.
- [33:15]
B
Let's talk about the Every Woman Biennial.
- [33:17]
A
So tell us the crown jewel.
- [33:19]
B
Okay, the crown jewel. Let's talk about that. So that started as a joke. I love that it was called the Whitney Houston Biennial. I wish it was still called that.
- [33:27]
A
They always publish the people that are going to be in the Whitney Biennial, like in January. I was like, oh, my God. You know, so it's exciting because that's such a big deal for artists. But the 2014, it was very, you know, heavy mail. And I just. I was like, reading the physical newspaper with a friend of mine, and I was just like, oh, if I curated that show, I'd have all those floors of the Whitney. All women artists. And she was like, you mean the Whitney Houston Biennial? And I was like, what? And we laughed so hard. And I thought, oh, God, I have to do this. So we found my friend gave us her art studio in Dumbo. It was a glorious spring day. And we had over 500 people in a line outside the building. And it was so fun. We had Narcissist perform Every Woman, which is so iconic. And then Annie Sprinkle was there. And, you know, Mickalene Thomas showed up. Cause she was a friend, and she's like, oh, I wanna be in this next Year. And so, you know, Swoon was in the show, like, so we had some celebrity superstar artists and we had, you know, an 18 year old who'd never been in a show before and everybody in between. We had a 90 year old artist be Krilov, rest in peace. And she showed up in her wheelchair like a champ with this glorious portrait of Audre Lorde, who sat for her. I mean, the stories go on and on about these connections between people that are phenomenal. And, you know, to introduce the 90 year old to the 18 year old and to have those two have a poignant conversation is everything.
- [34:52]
B
You do it every other year now?
- [34:54]
A
Yeah. The last one was at La Mama Galleria downtown also, and we've done it in London and LA as well.
- [35:02]
B
And it's no longer called the Whitney Houston Biennial.
- [35:05]
A
Well, turns out that in 2017, Whitney Houston's longtime publicist called me on the telephone and basically ripped me a new one because we used her image and name without her permission. But I had emailed them no less than 10 times and I went to New Jersey to a party where she was there. Of course you did. I felt like I could have done it, but they were just mad and it was over. So we had to change the name to the Every Woman Biennial.
- [35:33]
B
And you always have a flash mob.
- [35:36]
A
Not always. We've had two. This is our second one. We did1in 2019.
- [35:41]
B
In this next phase. Right. So now this has become part of your world. Ongoing building community for artists and others. Because I'm going to be in the flash mob and I'm definitely not an artist.
- [35:52]
A
It's for everybody.
- [35:54]
B
That's for everybody. Every Woman. Okay. So a lot of the stuff that you do, I mean, I can relate to that. Right. Between the podcast and the longest table, we're very scrappy. What is. If somebody's listening who has a project that they feel as passionate about no matter where they are in their lives, like, what's the piece of advice you would give them? Because what keeps you going?
- [36:12]
A
Just do it. Even if it's a small version of it, you have to make it real. You have to manifest it and physically do something. You can't just talk about it with your friends over coffee. That's lovely, but that's not the doing. You have to physically do it and ask for help. I mean, I asked for help six times yesterday. I. I did not know how to do.
- [36:34]
B
I'm not good at that at all.
- [36:36]
A
And I was terrible at asking for help for so long. I was the one man Band that had to insist on doing everything myself. I wish when I was younger, I would ask for more help.
- [36:46]
B
I mean, I actually like doing things with other people, so I don't mind together. But I don't like asking for help. There's a distinction.
- [36:53]
A
I know it's always a challenge for me to ask for help, but it's much easier to do it when I'm in service to a group of people that I really care about.
- [37:02]
B
Yeah, it's so interesting sitting across from you, because I think to myself, you never sit still, which is what people say to me, it's like sitting across from your mirror.
- [37:10]
A
Mirror.
- [37:11]
B
Okay, so we're going to do rapid fire.
- [37:12]
A
I got. Hold on.
- [37:14]
B
I have to pull it up. What's your messiest moment on a scale of 1 to 10?
- [37:18]
A
I'm working on the divine feminine mural in Los Angeles, California. And I round the corner from lunch, and my assistants are up on a very high lift. And when you go really high too quickly, there's rabbit and there's turtle. It should be on turtle. When you're going up, up, up, that's like a setting Rapid and turtle on the lift. The boom lift. 200ft in the air. They had it on rabbit. So they go up there, and when they hit the brakes to stop, the whole basket bounced.
- [37:46]
B
That's on stage.
- [37:47]
A
And an entire gallon of yellow ochre paint came crashing down onto the parking lot, which we had pre purchased all the spots underneath the mural because of falling paint. Yet the grubby parking attendant had decided on his own accord to go ahead and park some cars there. So for the next three hours, I took a crappy rag from Home Depot and a cup of water because I didn't have any other tools, and I literally scrubbed paint off of every single person's car. And that is a 10 on the.
- [38:17]
B
least it came off. That's what I'm going with. Okay. When was the last time you cried?
- [38:22]
A
Oh, two days ago.
- [38:23]
B
Two days ago. What should everyone do before they're 35?
- [38:27]
A
Travel wildly.
- [38:28]
B
What's a career myth that you think is a waste of time?
- [38:31]
A
Any pat thing that somebody tells you is what's important. You have to figure it out for yourself. Like, for me, it's like the gallery world being the only way or, you know, the museum is the only art path. I mean, come on. The spirit of art is huge and phenomenal and worldwide and everywhere.
- [38:45]
B
And you actually love doing art in third spaces.
- [38:48]
A
I love it.
- [38:49]
B
Yeah.
- [38:49]
A
Like, I mean, weirder is way better. Weirder is better.
- [38:52]
B
I like that piece of advice. What advice do you have for someone who's navigating a pivot?
- [38:57]
A
Go for it is number one. Don't be afraid to be a fool. It is gonna be messy. This whole podcast is based on that. Go mess something up. Go fail miserably. It's epic. It's fun. And you meet friends and then you have these great conversations on the podcast. I mean, what are you gonna say if everything's easy.
- [39:15]
B
I know. Then you join a flash mob, apparently. Well, thank you so much for coming. It's been great to have you. We're very excited about the show and even more excited about being in a flash mob.
- [39:24]
A
I gotta say, I'm honored. Thank you so much.
- [39:27]
B
I hope you enjoyed the conversation with C. Finley. She's so inspiring. Not just in the art of good living, which I think we all deserve, but also in her ability to just keep going, not knowing how it's all going to actually work out, but believing that somehow it will. I think you're going to listen and then want to do a dance party for yourself before you do a podcast or just about anything. Remember Telltale Friends review Share. Like, that's how we get to share more messy parts with you and everybody else.