← The Messy Parts
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- [00:00]
A
So for somebody who's listening, who's in a job where they begin to have that spidey sense that something's not right, what's the advice you would give somebody in that moment now that you're on the other side of this experience?
- [00:12]
B
Every one of us has that little voice, that intuition within ourselves, and it's never wrong. We have to listen to it. And I'm not saying the first time you hear that voice say something doesn't quite feel right, like I'm gonna throw a grenade into my whole situation. It's more like, listen. If that voice is consistently sending you the message, speak up.
- [00:41]
A
Today on the messy parts. We're going to have on Brooke Baldwin, journalist, blog the Unraveling. And also, you'll know her from her time as an anchor on cnn. I actually watched her get on camera and tell the world that she was leaving CNN not that long ago. Knowing now what I know about that journey. That moment is so remarkable because she held it all together. And you wouldn't have known about all the turmoil that was underneath that. How do you hold it together? How do you get through the mess? And what awaits you on the other side when your dream job all of a sudden is no longer? How do you, you know, introduce yourself at a cocktail party? How do you get over just always saying yes and figuring out how to what you want versus just fitting in to be able to survive in all these big jobs. That's the conversation we're gonna have with Brooke Baldwin. And believe me, this is one you're gonna wanna listen to all the way till the end. Brooke, thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you for having me couch.
- [01:42]
B
The word mess, by the way, still freaks me out. We're gonna. You're gonna have to help me with this.
- [01:46]
A
Well, you use the word unraveling.
- [01:48]
B
I know, but messy is just like, ooh. Like, unraveling to me is an act of creation that can only come out of destruction.
- [01:58]
A
I would say you have to go through the mess to actually get to.
- [02:01]
B
Success a hundred percent.
- [02:02]
A
So you have to maybe rethink the word mess. I think we have to embrace the mess.
- [02:07]
B
I totally agree. And you can help me do that in this conversation.
- [02:10]
A
All right. I'd like to start at the beginning, right? Like, take me back to Brooke Baldwin, who as a young child knew she wanted to be a journalist. Like, you know, I think that's a gift. Cause so many of us don't know what we want to do. Why do you think that was? Take us Back there.
- [02:26]
B
Well, I wanted to be Mary Lou Retton. I didn't realize I'd be five' ten. Then I wanted to be an astronaut. Then I was terrible at physics, so it was like, okay. Journalism came my way. And I think initially it was because I loved writing and storytelling since I was itty bitty. Like, I remember being in the first grade and writing some story that the entire elementary school, they chose mine to, like, read in front of the school. And I remember at the time, that felt like such a big deal. And my grandfather was this Presbyterian minister, and he had this great big booming voice. And I feel like I inherited his voice. I think just growing up, I was very aware of, like, the Today show and Katie Couric and then Jane Pauley and then, you know, eventually, like, Diane Sawyer. I was aware of these women, Barbara Walters, but it really wasn't until, like, for sure, for sure. I wanted to do this. When I interned at CNN in college after my sophomore year. What show.
- [03:17]
A
What show did you intern on?
- [03:19]
B
I interned on a show that no longer exists called Travel Now. I was actually initially rejected from the internship and talked my way into it. And I got to sit all summer logging, like, exotic video of all these correspondents traveling around the world, just, you know, transcribing the interviews. And in my lunch breaks, I would sneak down in the newsroom, stick my head against the glass wall that separated the newsroom from the anchors, and I would just watch, not actually thinking that would be me one day.
- [03:52]
A
So my first internship in New York was at Style with Elsa Klench. Yes, yes. And, you know, the founder of Fashion tv. And it's funny, I definitely knew that news and journalism was a thing, but I ended up not doing that. So it doesn't do that for everyone. And I think that there's a lot of people graduating from college, you know, trying to think about what they should do with their life. Right. And for those who, like you, actually knew exactly what they wanted to do.
- [04:20]
B
I was an anomaly.
- [04:21]
A
Yeah, you are an anomaly in that sense. I mean, I do think most people have no idea. And so they're sort of trying to muddle through. And I tell them, like, it's not a linear path.
- [04:29]
B
Oh, my gosh, totally not.
- [04:31]
A
But yours was kind of a linear path.
- [04:32]
B
It was.
- [04:33]
A
You went out, you work in a local station, you make all the sacrifices one does, right? No life working all the time, you know, going wherever they send you. And you accomplish your dream, you land at cnn, you're a freelancer. I love the story about the sticky you put it on, you're like, you're not getting rid of me.
- [04:52]
B
Yeah, no. Kill him with kindness. I'm not leaving this office that I am squatting in. And after, I mean, I think it took me two years. I had this embarrassing yellow badge. It was sort of like, you know, I'd with the yellow badge. And by. At a certain point, the security guards at CNN were just like, let her in. You know, I basically I was supposed to turn into a pumpkin just based upon like freelance rules. And they just kept letting me show up. And I just kept sitting at this desk in the southeast bureau. And finally people were like, okay, Brooke, you know, you said a word which.
- [05:19]
A
I really want to pause on killing them with kindness. That's definitely a strategy. And I, I deployed that strategy. I mean, I think like, you know, it's kind of a might be a girl thing. I don't know. Does that work? Because I wonder as you go higher up and it becomes more complicated. I don't think the guys are trying to kill anybody with tightness.
- [05:38]
B
No, no, no, no. I was just talking to someone the other day. It's like I was never the squeaky wheel. I couldn't be the squeaky wheel if I tried.
- [05:43]
A
What is a squeaky wheel?
- [05:44]
B
Squeaky wheel meaning like someone who's. Can be kind of a dick. Kind of a dick. Somebody who's like, no, no, no, you're doing this wrong. You're stepping on my interview. Get out of my way. And I do think that like there is, there's a healthy medium. I was too far on the other side. I was brought up in the south. I was brought up to be polite and well mannered and it got me far in life. And by the way, I sleep really well at night because I am that person. And when you're the yes girl, you ultimately get taken advantage of.
- [06:13]
A
I'm going to say whacked in the end.
- [06:15]
B
In the end.
- [06:16]
A
So you're at cnn, you're at the top. And I think in the middle of this journey, which was a 13 year run, which is significant at CNN and you know, you were young when you first became their anchor. When did you begin to have a sense that maybe it wasn't a dream job?
- [06:35]
B
Way later. So I mean, for me to even keep showing up and squatting in that office with my post it with my name scribbled outside of it, then finally getting hired as a correspondent one day, I end up anchoring that show for a week. Cause this guy got fired and then they're like, cute. Can you just do it for a week till we actually find someone? And then, like, 10, 11 years later, I'm still doing that job. I was learning so much. I was like a sponge. I mean, I was literally learning about the world as I was covering the world live in front of millions of people. People. It was when Trump came down the escalator that I feel like the way we covered news fundamentally changed. And it went from a broad selection of stories to just like a fire hose of one. And the way we were covering it, that, to me, is when it started becoming a bit unpleasant. But I was like, just keep going. He's gonna lose. She's gonna win. It's going to be the end of that. We're going to go back to regularly scheduled programming. And we all know that's not how the story ended.
- [07:34]
A
You began to have sort of a feeling, I would say. But then fast forward to past that, right? Covid happens, you move to Connecticut, you know, all kinds of things happen. Does that feeling begin to intensify?
- [07:49]
B
The feeling intensified through those last. I would say, really four years, yes. I would be sidelined off my own show in favor of Washington centric coverage. And that hurt. And I wasn't the only one. A lot of us, during the day, they would go to Washington to cover those stories, and I understood that. But equally, I'd earned my stripes. Like, no, no anchor or reporter wants to be taken off the story. You know, at some point, I get this call, and they're like, we're gonna take you off your show for the 2020 election. That wrecked me. And then I couldn't be entirely truthful with people as far as, like, why that happened, or my boss wasn't being totally truthful with me as to why that happened. So that was like, a huge marker for me. And then it was like all these, like, thousand little cuts, and then how I was being treated by this one particular producer, and then finding the courage to finally be like the quasi squeaky wheel by actually asking for something that I needed from the boss. And that was the beginning of the end.
- [08:48]
A
Let's go back to that moment. Right? You actually are describing this moment where they say to you, we don't want you to cover the story.
- [08:55]
B
A lot of times that happens.
- [08:56]
A
Yeah. But as that begins to happen, how does that feel?
- [08:59]
B
It feels horrendous because I know I'm capable. I know I'm good at my job. I may not be the expert in all things Washington, but I feel like one of My gifts was being the voice of the people. I could relate to the viewer, and I knew how to channel the viewer and ask questions that a viewer, I would think of my mother, my good friends, how would they. If we're taking a really complicated, deeply layered story, the Jedi move is to figure out how to ask questions live on tv as you're in the throes of an interview on behalf of the viewer. I was like, I always had the viewer's back. And by not choosing me to cover some of the most enormous stories that, you know, it's like running a marathon. I've been running the marathon, and then all of a sudden, the last 0.2 miles, I'm yanked. It felt terrible. And, yeah, that was the beginning of the end.
- [09:50]
A
And did you mask that? Because I've been in that situation.
- [09:54]
B
Have you?
- [09:55]
A
Yeah, a million times. You're in these corporate jobs and you get sidelined.
- [09:59]
B
Yeah.
- [09:59]
A
And I'll remember my story at Univision. Right. Best upfront ever. Get a bouquet of flowers. And then it's like, yeah, you know what? I need to do somebody else a favor. I'm going to have you report to him. I mean, it felt terrible. Terrible. But I immediately masked it because I wasn't going to let on to anybody else. So much so that at the point where I resigned, they were surprised, but I'd been plotting my resignation from that minute.
- [10:24]
B
Yes. If you were a fly on the wall of all of my therapy sessions, it wasn't about my marriage. It was about my marriage to my work and my marriage to this producer and my marriage to my boss. It consumed me. And so my agent at the time was very much like, I became more of a squeaky wheel. And she was like, honey, you're never gonna have another job that's gonna be like this. She was basically saying to me, just keep your mouth shut. Just be a good girl and keep your mouth shut. I do think that in some instances previously where it wasn't a Washington centric story and I was yanked, I did speak up to my boss, and I know he really respected me for it. And so he would put me. He would keep me on my show.
- [11:02]
A
Yeah.
- [11:02]
B
Yay. Thank you. You know, and then he'd be like, see, I kept you on your show, and I have to thank you so much. Oof. Can still feel it in my body.
- [11:11]
A
Right. It was visceral. But I think the thing that's interesting is that in that masking, which we do, because it's the way you survive in these big corporate jobs. You pay a price. Right. Because there was a handful of people I would confide in. But otherwise, you know, you put that face on.
- [11:26]
B
That's right.
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A
The armor.
- [11:27]
B
That's right.
- [11:27]
A
As you describe it.
- [11:28]
B
That's right.
- [11:29]
A
And for a long time, like that begins to eat at you.
- [11:32]
B
For a long time, I didn't say anything directly to my producer about how he was treating me. For a long time I didn't say anything to my boss. And that is my biggest regret is I should have gone into my boss's office. I mean, there were so many, like, there's so many layers of my story. It's like how I was pulled off my show by my boss. It was how I was treated by my producer. It was how I was complicit in my own self silencing. Like, I'm not innocent here. My agent, who, you know, represented other people at cnn, so she had to look out for herself. It was a bit of a conflict of interest situation. She didn't want to piss off the president of CNN just because I was annoyed. And then ultimately it all happened in a vacuum, which was the pandemic. And then I just slipped out the side door just like that.
- [12:15]
A
So for somebody who's listening, who's in a job where they begin to have that spidey sense that something's not right, I definitely had a spidey sense. I mean, I was a kid who grew up in revolution, so I was very much attuned to having a plan A, B and C. I could feel things before most people. It's why I could see around corners in a lot of ways. And so I would plot. But sometimes it took a while to be able to make your move. I had a column once on LinkedIn and people would be like, when do I know it's time to quit?
- [12:44]
B
Right?
- [12:45]
A
And we know it's hard because you have to. You know, there's like financial implications. There's all kinds of things that make it difficult. Or you're like, I'm lucky to be in this seat. What's the advice you would give somebody in that moment now that you're on the other side of this experience?
- [13:00]
B
Every one of us has that little voice, that intuition within ourselves, and it's never wrong. We have to listen to it. And I'm not saying the first time you hear that voice say something doesn't quite feel right, like I'm going to throw a grenade into my whole situation. It's more like, listen, if that voice is consistently sending you the same message, speak Up. I waited too late. I really believe, had I spoken up earlier to my boss about how I was being treated, I would like to believe that he would have done something about it sooner. Listen to your voice. Listen to that intuition and speak up before it's too late.
- [13:39]
A
All right, I'm going to push back on that.
- [13:41]
B
Okay.
- [13:41]
A
Because we all know that speaking up can come with the price.
- [13:46]
B
Sure.
- [13:46]
A
So the.
- [13:47]
B
There's a way to speak up.
- [13:49]
A
Okay. What does that mean?
- [13:49]
B
There's a way to speak up. I'm from the South. I believe in, like, having grace and ferocity. Like, you can have both, you can hold both. And so I think it's a matter of have specifics. This is how I'm feeling, and this is why. Specific 1, specific 2, specific 3, so you can point to things and it's not just this nebulous complaint and then leave your boss's office, follow up with an email, send the three bullet points and wait. That's what I would have done if.
- [14:18]
A
Somebody was giving me this advice. What I would also say is it may not go your way. One, they may not respond at all.
- [14:25]
B
Yes.
- [14:25]
A
Two, you may end up paying a price because I've seen it happen, and I think you have to be okay with that. Which is why, for me, I was working the plan B and C at the same time, so that I wasn't caught unawares. I mean, when I read your story and I hear you talk about it, this. The sense of, I don't know why this happened to me. Right. Like the sense that you just get the phone call, you're at the diner, no real explanation.
- [14:50]
B
No.
- [14:50]
A
You're left guessing.
- [14:51]
B
Yeah.
- [14:52]
A
Right. No closure.
- [14:53]
B
I imagine it's different for everyone. I think when you're fired without cause, there's nothing my boss could have said to me. I don't even know if he could have articulated why he needed to let me go. I don't know what kind of hornet's nest I accidentally stepped on at some point in that last year at cnn, but I would never have had closure.
- [15:13]
A
Do you have closure now?
- [15:16]
B
I don't know if I honestly believe in closure. I think that more than anything, it's a matter of what's my lesson in this moment and how can I pull myself back up and be a better version of myself for the next. But I don't think I will ever have closure.
- [15:36]
A
Today, lots of people are getting laid off. Right. It kind of feels unprecedented in some ways. Advice do you have for somebody who gets that pink slip?
- [15:45]
B
I would find Other friends who are in the same situation because that to me is everything. I was so totally alone. Find your huddle amongst those suffering and find strength in one another. Share your story Feel all the feelings. Don't try to zip it up. Like, if you're pissed, be pissed. If you're sad, weep. Figure out as quickly as you can as you're getting still and getting quiet, what is my skill set? What was lacking in this job that I had and what can I find next? And then network. Use your network to try to find that next position.
- [16:23]
A
I watched your on air remarks about your departure. You announced and you stayed for a while.
- [16:30]
B
We negotiated that.
- [16:31]
A
Right?
- [16:31]
B
Yeah.
- [16:32]
A
But again, back to this conversation that we're having. You have to hold it together. So there were months at which you kept showing up at that job while it was like eating at you on the inside. Right. The exact advice we're giving to somebody else was just like, tell people. Right. You weren't able to.
- [16:49]
B
Wasn't allowed.
- [16:50]
A
And so I watched you knowing now what I know because you've talked about it. I watched that clip and I thought to myself, I've been there. I remember standing up in front of 800 people giving a talk. They had no idea what was going on, coming off. And the one person who did know said, I don't know how you were able to do that. And I said, it's my job. And it was your job. But you carried that. There was a price you paid for that for months.
- [17:18]
B
For not being able to tell the truth.
- [17:19]
A
Yes.
- [17:20]
B
For years. It was negotiated that I could tell my own news on my own show. They didn't want me to do that. They wanted it to just be an email and then I wouldn't even acknowledge my departure out loud.
- [17:33]
A
It was also a very sanitized version of that story for you in some.
- [17:37]
B
Ways, I wouldn't say a very sanitized. I mean, yes. It wasn't like I'm being forced out. Yes.
- [17:42]
A
Yeah. It's not what you would have said to me on the couch if we were sitting in a huddle.
- [17:46]
B
Totally. I wrote it and then I had. It had to be negotiated. I thanked my boss, which was hard. The hardest part was not only not being able to tell the full truth to the viewers, but also not being able to tell the truth to my team. These are people who came to my wedding who I adore. They're like brothers and sisters to me, you know, And I couldn't tell them why I was leaving them. And that was excruciating.
- [18:19]
A
And you sign paperwork that says you can't talk.
- [18:21]
B
That's right. You know, it was a matter of like, okay, am I going to get severance for one year? You know, Sign, sign. Because I wanted to be able to just on a practical level, save money, to be able to say no to opportunities that I knew were gonna come my way that weren't in alignment. Like, never again would I feel out of alignment with my work. So I knew I needed that money to save a hundred percent. I signed my life away forever until I was like, fuck this.
- [18:53]
A
I think there is for sure a relief in being able to say the words.
- [18:58]
B
Because in some ways the words being, I'm fired.
- [19:00]
A
Yeah. And just being angry. Being able to be angry out loud. Do you know what I mean? So, you know, you sort of carry. It's a shame in some way, even though you know you did nothing wrong. And not being able to say that, that also must have been incredibly difficult. Did that make you feel, like, guilty? Like somehow you weren't being honest? Like, how did that feel? Like, walk me into that process?
- [19:22]
B
Well, I never even said out loud I was fired till this year. Four years in to this space. I was let go. My contract wasn't renewed. So then I was like, went out on Front street and gave my TED Talk and was like, y', all, I was fired. And that felt like such a release. And to of course, my core group of girlfriends and my husband at the time, Nick, knew. But to not be able to tell that truth to a larger circle, to my colleagues again, I go back, it wrecked me. My insides were all, you know, it was, was messy. It was messy. And I just wanted to be able to tell the truth. And I only realized through therapy, post firing that so much of my situation and being part of this charade that I was just leaving very much mirrored my childhood. And being part of a charade, which is why it hit so deep, which is why I think I've come out on the other side, like, processing my life with this. Now I see it as a gift of being fired.
- [20:32]
A
Tell me more about the charade of your younger self.
- [20:36]
B
I grew up in a home of privilege, suburban Atlanta, went to the best schools, was a good kid, parents married, dad had a amazing consulting job. Mom was like full on, full court press mom. You know, she left her teaching job to be a full time mom. But there was this sense of, are we all telling the full truth in this house? You know, just as a little girl like you talk about growing up in a revolution. Like, I Can't relate to that, but I can relate to, like, something. There's, like, something not right here. I can't quite put my finger on it as a little girl, but there's this charade that we're all playing that this is where this perfect family, white picket fence, the whole deal, and I had to participate in the charade. I somehow knew as a little girl and then growing into young adulthood that my parents were not this loving, truthful, loyal, you know, marriage. It was like my insides were screaming, like, mom, you know, I want you to be happy. And if dad wants to be over here and do this, like, go, like, just split. It became, like, all of my childhood. Later, my. My teen years into my young adult years became all about that. And so the fact that they just didn't acknowledge it, didn't do anything about it, was very hard for me. And so cut to. I'm bounced out of cnn. I can't tell the truth. I know this thing is wrong on the outside. People looking in, looking at this media institution, this longtime entity as fair and truthful and integrity, and we report the facts. And yet I am experiencing a very different reality from this place. I want to scream it to everyone, and I can't. It was the same sort of feeling until I wrote that Vanity Fair piece. And then I was like, it was release. Oh, huge.
- [22:43]
A
So I think I told you when you walked in that I read the story about your mom driving you past a place where she thought your father was in with somebody other than her.
- [22:51]
B
Yes.
- [22:52]
A
And how she didn't let you get out of the car.
- [22:54]
B
My leg was dangling out, like, I was, like, ready to go.
- [22:58]
A
Did you say anything to your father after that? Or did you. Were you not allowed to?
- [23:02]
B
You know, this part is murky for me. I think I've partially blacked it out. I seem to recall I couldn't not say something. I think I did. And he said, she's a friend from high school. We were just working on a high school reunion. There was no, yes, you got me. I'm sorry. I've been living this life. I've been living this double life, triple. I don't even know. You know, I never got that truth that I needed, but it was enough seeing his car.
- [23:39]
A
She didn't leave after that?
- [23:40]
B
No. She stayed with him for, like, 40 years.
- [23:43]
A
So I grew up where there was a sense that my dad was cheating.
- [23:45]
B
Yeah.
- [23:46]
A
And I very much remember at one point he moved to Newport Beach. We stayed in Lafayette, and my mom couldn't hold it in so she would, you know, there'd be yelling on the phone or whatever. And my sister was seven years younger. We would hear this. And I remember he came home one weekend and I said, if you're cheating, I just want you to know I'd never forgive you. And I was definitely daddy's girl. And he said to me, why is your love conditional? And then he just moved on to something else. It was like he always flipped it.
- [24:16]
B
Wow.
- [24:17]
A
There was never an answer. And in the Iranian culture, it's very much of a. You know, you hold things in so you don't share things to the public. I mean, I spent my whole life with my mom saying, like, you don't talk about that. You don't show that to other people. Right. You're holding it in. There's no, you know, just be honest. It's as if you're putting on a charade 247 for somebody else.
- [24:41]
B
Totally.
- [24:42]
A
So then you go into this job.
- [24:45]
B
Yeah.
- [24:45]
A
And you're having to hold it in for how many months after you went on air and told the world that you were leaving did you have to do that?
- [24:52]
B
I announced sometime in February and I left in April. You know, when you work in a big corporate environment, you can feel rumblings and change coming. And it was the first time my entire time at CNN that I was only re upped my contract for one year. Normally they'd be like three more years. Three more years. Three more years and you get a raise each time. I was re upped for one. In the the middle of COVID with no race. That was my first like.
- [25:17]
A
And in the meantime, you were with your first husband.
- [25:19]
B
Yeah.
- [25:20]
A
And you'd moved to Connecticut.
- [25:22]
B
I had a place in the city and I was working. Cause I was going to work during COVID every day in person and then got a house in Connecticut because he became just deeply unhappy with living in New York.
- [25:33]
A
And so at the same time that you're having this tumultuous experience, you were also having this unraveling. I love that word that you've chosen at home on a personal level.
- [25:42]
B
Yes, yes, yes. He was just deeply unhappy. And there was a lot of his unhappiness manifested in a lot of anger. And my kind of original, longtime relationship was my work. So it was like I had these two, to use your word, like messes, unfurling, unraveling in my life. But the louder one was my work, because that was my livelihood, my identity, my everything. And so that was the louder of the two messes. And only Once I got bounced out of mess number one was like, you know, mess number two, it became crystal clear to me that, okay, well, if I can survive my divorce from cnn, I think I can survive my divorce from this man.
- [26:31]
A
So you're describing what is obviously a difficult situation, right? Personal, professional. There's probably somebody listening who's going through that mess themselves. You're on the other side of that. Looking back, are there any pieces of advice you could give?
- [26:49]
B
It's hard when your life is full of distractions and noise and fear. How to see through it all. What I would tell someone is if you can get help while you're in it. You know, I was seeing a therapist for both my work and then ultimately my marriage. I also was seeing a life coach who was the first and only life coach I've ever seen. That was incredibly helpful to mirror back to me what I was saying to her about my situations, bringing in close friends who I could be truthful with, who I could trust at that time. My spiritual practice isn't what it is now, so I didn't do that. I would say if. If that is. That feels that's part of your practice, lean on that. Have faith, trust in the process. As like, woo, woo as that sounds. That's where I am now. Like, for me, I think with my work situation, I just felt trapped in all the ways I felt trapped. Like, my. My agent wasn't helping me, my boss was definitely not helping me, my producer wasn't helping me. I was stuck. I was stuck until I got removed. I think if you wait too long, that's what my point about, like, saying something earlier rather than later. Like, start the breadcrumb trail early. If you're treated a certain way, write it down. You may not want to go to HR immediately, but, like, keep the emails, keep the receipts, write down the notes of your exchanges, the dates, that kind of thing. That's what I would tell someone.
- [28:20]
A
Often we see only one way. Like, I'm an anchor. Like, okay, what am I going to go do?
- [28:25]
B
If.
- [28:25]
A
If you begin to get that Spidey sense, you're like, you, I'm under contract. How can I go get another job? And this is my dream job. But I do think figuring out a way to open up your aperture so that you see different possibilities for your life down the path. I mean, I'm always amazed by Jessica Yellen, who reinvented not just herself, but kind of her medium by actually doing news on Instagram before most people were doing that.
- [28:50]
B
Right.
- [28:50]
A
And she would never have come to that equation if she'd stayed in that job.
- [28:54]
B
That's right.
- [28:55]
A
So this ability to also change your aperture to say the anchor job at CNN is not the only thing I can do. I think that's also a really freeing experience.
- [29:07]
B
I was done. I didn't need to anchor anymore. So what I was saying to my agent at the time was just like my ego was not big enough to need to be on TV every day for two hours. Like, I'll go be a correspondent in another network. Ultimately, I totally opened my aperture because I decided to bet on myself and leave news. And at the time I was even thinking about moving to LA to explore longer form storytelling. So in that way, I opened my aperture away from what I, everything I had known in my entire 20 year career to sort of like move my ship this way and take, take a gamble on myself in that way.
- [29:41]
A
How did you have the courage to bet on yourself? Like, that's, that sounds so easy, right? It's like, it's like an Instagram meme. It's hard. Like, here I am. Imagine I'm somebody who's, you know, in that crossroads, like, what would you tell me to give me the courage to go bet on myself.
- [29:55]
B
I'm a big believe and like meditation and breathing and getting still and listening to that voice within you. I think had I known, you know, this is the, this is the fun part about life is like, we don't, we can't see the future. So I would never have known, okay, I'm gonna bet on myself. I'm gonna leave news and go see where I can land in the space of unscripted television. It's sort of like the ignorance, the not knowing is part of what enabled me to do it. I would take these meetings with people in Hollywood. They'd be like, but you're so great on the news. I literally guy say to me, but do you smile? And I was like, it just, it just has taken a while to show people who I am. So it's almost like this blind willfulness of I'm just gonna, I'm gonna dive into this new space. It's just a risk. It's a gut instinct and not everyone needs to do it. Like, I could have absolutely stayed in news and I could have kept a salary and kept a safety net and been part of corporate America and. And I think sometimes it's like a case of the fuck it's too. I had saved some money, so I knew I could just see about this whole other space that by the way had been tugging at me for a long time.
- [31:09]
A
So, I mean, I. And I remember reading or listening because I listened to a lot of your podcasts. You saying that you were about to buy a house, like you were gonna make a financial decision on the day that you got the phone call telling you that, you know, you were leaving.
- [31:22]
B
Yeah.
- [31:22]
A
So there is a bit of financial freedom that's necessary in this moment. And I think that the insecurity of my father being sort of a cheater also was a driver for me to wanna stand on my own two feet. Right, but so you clearly got to a place where you had the financial wherewithal to also bet on yourself. Was that a thing?
- [31:40]
B
Huge. I mean, I remember, I have memories of my mom knowing she was in an unhappy marriage, saying to me, go make your own money. Do not rely on someone. And I took that to, like. And so when I finally started making money, I was financially responsible and have never lived out of my means and just started, like, just chipping away, pulling whatever out of my salary, putting it in savings, you know, becoming smart about hiring financial guys to help me grow my money. And that gave me the freedom to bet on myself. If I hadn't had that, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you. I'd probably be a reporter on the Today show covering whatever and living my life and probably still married and unhappy in a house in Connecticut and whatever. You know, I would have been in a totally different place. So thank God I saved. And that would be my biggest recommendation if, even if you're, you know, for a long, long time, I didn't make a lot of money. And still taking just a tiny bit of that and popping it over into a savings account might save you down the road.
- [32:44]
A
I love that piece of advice. Because you never know. You never know what's waiting for you. One of the other things I realized is that you tried a lot of things on your journey to your new self.
- [32:55]
B
Yeah.
- [32:56]
A
Including the Hoffman Institute.
- [32:57]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [32:58]
A
So for people who don't know what that is, I mean, let's just give it a two second.
- [33:02]
B
I would say the Hoffman Institute is like summer camp for the soul. You go for a week, you hand in all your electronics, all your books, they literally are like, no masturbate, no exercise, no nothing that will take you away from the work. Nothing.
- [33:19]
A
And so what made you willing to do that?
- [33:21]
B
I don't want to say desperation, but I was pushed to the edge, you know, like the. It's so annoying. The cliche, like, when it rains, it pours. It's true. It's like I got dropped, kicked out of my dream career. I knew that my marriage, as much as I loved him, the anger was so incredibly destructive for me. My dog, my one and only, like, put him, said goodbye. 19 years. Every bucket of my life was a mess. And so I just like, kind of blindly again, like, fuck it, I had the. I blindly signed up for this place I'd never heard of called the Hoffman Institute. I felt so disintegrated in various parts. And also I knew I needed to find the courage to leave my marriage. And I was open to the possibility of finding some answers at this place to see if I could find that clarity.
- [34:12]
A
And so you go and it's a transformative moment. You come back and you reset your life.
- [34:17]
B
I do. I do. After I leave Hoffman, I learned so much about myself and my childhood and my patterns. And I had an incredible, very specific moment there where I knew I would be okay on my own.
- [34:32]
A
You know, the ride to the top can be very lonely.
- [34:34]
B
The top can be lonely.
- [34:36]
A
And you also had this experience of watching your mom sort of in an unhappy marriage. And yet you kind of replicated that because it is lonely. And so still having somebody who may not be perfect, but to have somebody to come home to was something you held onto, even though you also must have had that gooey feeling of knowing that wasn't great.
- [34:55]
B
I'm really proud of myself that I found that courage. It was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
- [34:59]
A
Was this harder than leaving cnn?
- [35:01]
B
Well, the difference is I chose to leave my marriage. And so my courage in choosing to leave is what I'm proudest of.
- [35:08]
A
So let's talk about that courage. Like, where did that courage come from?
- [35:12]
B
Surrender has been a huge part of my practice the last four years. Let go. I'm like, I wanna walk faster than everyone. I wanna order the things ahead of everyone. I wanna know what I'm doing. I'm a list girl. I'm a type A. I've had to shift all of that. It's a practice. Slowing down has been huge for me. Cause that's when you receive life.
- [35:34]
A
No, I've been like a forward motion. Cause if I'm constantly moving, bad things can happen.
- [35:38]
B
Right. But if you're in gear six instead of gear three, you can't receive.
- [35:42]
A
So now we come to your new chapter. The chapter that you're in. The unraveling.
- [35:47]
B
Yes.
- [35:48]
A
Which really is actually about finding yourself.
- [35:50]
B
Yes. It's really Actually just coming home to myself. It's like I had somebody text me the other day, being like, I love this new brook. And I'm like, this is actually who I am.
- [36:01]
A
But the armor's gone. And I mean that also physically, because when I look at that clip with the hair.
- [36:06]
B
Oh, my Lord, the hair.
- [36:08]
A
Because it's a thing.
- [36:11]
B
It is a thing.
- [36:12]
A
Like, the you now versus the you in that moment on that segment is a very different person.
- [36:17]
B
But I also wasn't allowed to be this. You know, I had to play that role. And when they say, blow out your hair and do it this way, like, I was like, okay, whatever you need. But now I'm like, natural hair. I'm just more, more me. And it felt. It's so silly to just even talk about, like, something that sounds so superficial, but it's such a metaphor for something deeper. It's like, if I can allow myself to be and wear and do less, then that opens up a space to be more and more me.
- [36:56]
A
Now you're like, it's okay to talk about the mess.
- [36:58]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very much.
- [37:00]
A
Which we all live in the mess. It's just that we were taught not to talk about it.
- [37:03]
B
That's right.
- [37:04]
A
At home and apparently also at work.
- [37:06]
B
That's right. And I really, truly applaud you for, like, putting a floodlight and having these conversations on the mess.
- [37:13]
A
Because it's where we all are, if we're honest, pretty much every day.
- [37:16]
B
Yes. I ran into Maria Shriver a couple weeks ago at a book event, and I literally was like, maria, I just feel like I'm still in the messy middle. You know, Brene Brown's still feel like I'm in the messy middle. How do I get out of the mess? And she looked at me and she was like, brooke, how fucking lucky. Look at your life. You don't have those three letters attached to you. You will forever be a journalist. You don't need to be in a building to be who you are. And you're not in a mess. This is your life. Like, that was such an adjustment. I literally went home and took a Magic Marker and wrote it down on a post it and put it up on my bathroom mirror. Because it's like just this little tweaking of the mess is life. It's not a phase. It's everywhere around us. We are the still points amidst the mess and the chaos. And we have to accept that this is. This is it forever.
- [38:13]
A
You know, one of the things that powerful titles do is they give you an Identity. When you walk into a cocktail party, Brooke, what are you up to? The number of times people said she's the former global CMO of Hyatt. I was like, wait, am I no longer a person? Is that my only identity?
- [38:30]
B
Leading with former this, former that?
- [38:32]
A
Brooke, we're at a cocktail party. How am I going to introduce you?
- [38:35]
B
I am a journalist. I am a writer. I am a TV host. I'm a truth seeker. And I'm still figuring it out. Thanks for asking.
- [38:46]
A
So do you have advice for somebody else who's struggling with that?
- [38:49]
B
I'm just a big believer in truth. Like, you know what? Thank you so much for asking. I am actually trying to figure it out. I'm in transition and ask me in two months. Thank you for. Thank you for wanting to know.
- [39:02]
A
My second to you is, how are you? Because in the end, guess what? They really just want to talk about themselves. Yes.
- [39:09]
B
I'm so good. I'm so good at asking people questions. Pivot quickly. Don't you worry. Yeah, like, I'm like, let's not talk about me. Let's talk about you.
- [39:17]
A
What are you doing now? Like, where are you going? What's your North Star? What's your purpose?
- [39:21]
B
I mean, I think my purpose is to honestly just shine a light and show people, give people permission to tell the truth, not just to others, but to themselves. Like, to how to live in full integrity, I think is my purpose. What I am literally doing is I think I am baby stepping a little bit back into journalism. Have had some good conversations this week. I'm not interested in signing contracts and being part of a network again, but I am interested in getting out and telling some stories that matter. I'm really interested in, like, what is happening in this country and listening to real people, not just, like, these people on the coast. I think I have another book in me, and I am developing a podcast around these same themes and hope to just host a show where I can, in fact, smile.
- [40:07]
A
So I was gonna try some sort of rapid fire questions.
- [40:11]
B
Okay.
- [40:11]
A
Okay. What's the thing you would tell somebody to do before they're 35?
- [40:15]
B
Find a way that frees your body so that whatever happens to you in your life. Like, I come here to New York, and I love dancing. I go to the forward space a lot and like, sorry, what is forward space? My church. It's in Nolita. It's on Spring Street. Kristen Sudeikis, Jason's sister, runs this whole thing. She's basically built a club. It's like sober day dancing. And it's incredible.
- [40:38]
A
I'm gonna have to travel.
- [40:39]
B
It is incredible. So go dance.
- [40:41]
A
Oh, yeah. Okay. Go dance. What's a career myth that you think is a waste of time, that you.
- [40:46]
B
Have to stick with one thing? Your life is gonna zigzag. Your interests are gonna zigzag. Don't feel like you have to pigeonhole yourself in one thing forever.
- [40:54]
A
What is one thing you'd say you'd never do again?
- [40:57]
B
Not speak up when I'm not being treated well.
- [41:00]
A
How messy was your messy part? On a scale of 1 to 10.
- [41:03]
B
I would say the mess that was leaving CNN was a solid 10.
- [41:07]
A
When was the last time you cried?
- [41:09]
B
Last night.
- [41:10]
A
All the time. When was the last time you failed?
- [41:14]
B
I have been in situations where I've moved to Los Angeles and moved in with my man who has a teenage daughter. And I would say that has been an enormous learning curve for me and has been incredibly messy moving in with a teenage girl. So I'm sure I have failed until I have learned how to exist and be an oak tree for her to come under my shade.
- [41:34]
A
Lose a job, find a life. Do you think that's happened?
- [41:37]
B
Lose a job, find a life. Oh, 100%, yes. Yes.
- [41:40]
A
Well, Brooke, I mean, I knew this would be good. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it, and for just being open and honest. And I like the natural curly hair.
- [41:50]
B
Thank you.
- [41:51]
A
You get to be you.
- [41:51]
B
I do get to be me. And you know what? Like, I love some glam squad also. You know, I love being done, but I really just love being me.
- [41:58]
A
Thank you to Brooke Baldwin for getting messy with us. You know, we all go through the mess, the unraveling and talking about it. It is really healing. But I think there's also some great lessons about how the ending is of your dream job can actually just be the beginning of your new life.