← The Messy Parts
The Messy Parts
The Real Reason You're Paralyzed in Your Career (It's Not What You Think): Farnoosh Torabi
00:41:41
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- [00:00]
A
Of course, I felt naked at the time. I was like, I don't have a title, I don't have a salary. Who's gonna, who's gonna work with me? Closure's hard, especially when it's not on your terms and someone says, this is over for you before you're ready, before you're ready, before you think you, you have what it takes to move on in that moment. A good question to ask yourself as you're afraid about what's next is what is something that I've always wanted to do or can now do? Because space has opened up, time has freed up for me in this moment of goodbyes. What is a hello?
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B
Hi, I'm Mariam Banakaram. And this week on the Messy Parts, we have on Farnoosh Tarabi. She's a very well known financial expert. She's written books, she has a podcast.
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A
But.
- [00:56]
B
But she came on today to really talk about her journey, where she started and how she landed in her success, which she's still got going on today. What's amazing is that as a child she considered herself a scaredy cat. So much so that she actually has a bracelet with that word emblazed on it. You're going to want to listen. This is a good one. I'm so glad you agreed to come on. I think this is going to be a super interesting conversation. I always love to start with being people's origin story. And I know that you grew up with parents who were immigrants.
- [01:31]
A
Yes.
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B
And what I found super interesting, actually was that you talk about how in your family you talked about money. And as a kid who grew up in a family where we did not talk about money.
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A
Really?
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B
Yeah, I was really interested because culturally I thought that was like an Iranian thing.
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A
To talk about money?
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B
No, to not talk about money.
- [01:50]
A
Hello. Like, that's interesting. I mean, I think that it was. I thought it was so normal. I thought it was so normal. My parents moved here pretty young. My father was getting his, he was finishing like graduate studies. They were just married. I was born in 1980 in Worcester, Massachusetts. We were living in what would have been considered like affordable housing back then. Still is. And we struggled. You know, my dad made a stipend at the university, assistant professing. My mother didn't work. And we, I saw them go from that to a place where they're financially stable. We're moving into a bigger house. Always like my, for my parents, it was very important to always be moving up.
- [02:39]
B
Right.
- [02:39]
A
That American dream was sort of this, the goalpost Kept getting further and further and they would just keep following it. And throughout it all though, there it was very messy. My father, he worked in technology, he's. And it was the 80s and the early 90s, so there's a lot of consolidation, a lot of layoffs. And also my parents fought about money all the time. So it's funny you say we talked about money. Yes, we did, but not always in a great light. That for me was like a front row seat to what can happen, for example, in a relationship when in a parent, my parents case one, money's tight, but more importantly the one partner doesn't have a lot of financial autonomy. And that was my mom. And I think seeing that was an early lesson in not only what I do as a career today, but what I do very personally in my life, which is to make sure I'm financially independent.
- [03:30]
B
And I think for a lot of immigrants it's either like feast or famine. Some people come with money, some people don't come with money. But we ended up moving to a well to do suburb of California and, and it was a pretty WASPy town and people didn't talk about money. Like you really just didn't talk about that. And we didn't grow up really talking about that either. And it was only later when my father passed away sort of unexpectedly that financial insecurity kind of in a bigger way came up. But the financial insecurity was different than what you're describing. But what's interesting to me is that I sort of had this whole notion of like I should pursue the thing that I'm passionate about. Right. Which is such a non money dream. Wow. Right. Cause that's like a privilege to actually have that thought.
- [04:13]
A
I mean, I pursue a sort of creative field now. I, you know, journalism was a hard sell to my parents. I had to first go get a degree in finance, you know. And then when I was there in, at Penn State studying finance, I was like, I don't really think I want to be that stereotypical finance graduate who's going to go work at a bank. And you know, maybe why not? It's it, it just didn't spark joy in me. I felt like this is not where I'm going to be happy. I just knew it. I just knew it. I grew up very creative. I wanted to write, I wanted, I always was into the theater and my parents were like that's great as a hobby, right? You have to pay your bills to pay your bills. So backtrack. I'm in high school, I'M you know, typical Iranian, you know, very studious, getting all my ducks in a row for college. And I wasn't really cluing in my parents as far as like, where I was applying and all of that. But one day my father said, where are you actually apply? This was probably the fall before. I'm about to go into college the next year. And I said, well, I'm applying to this liberal arts college and that private school. And, you know, and he's like, well, what does that cost? I said, don't worry, dad. My guidance counselor said, there's this thing called student loans. And that's how everyone does it. You know, how do you think anyone goes to college now? At that point, it was like 40, $50,000 a year. And he said, no, in our family, we don't take on debt to go get a degree. He said, you need to have a backup. You need to apply to maybe some state schools. You know, are you applying for scholarships? So despite the fact that I got into some really shiny object schools, like I got into nyu, I got into Northwestern. And they were like, no, you are going to go to Penn State.
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B
Were you mad?
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A
I was upset, I was sad. And I was also resentful because I gave up a lot in high school to get what I thought was sort of the perfect transcript. Right. To go to college. I didn't. I was a good girl. Let's just say, you know, I didn't party. I didn't stay out late. I followed rules. I was a rule follower. And I studied really hard. I took the SATs multiple times. But truthfully, you know, in hindsight, it was one of the best financial moves and life moves. I mean, I met my husband at Penn State. I. I have very strong ties to the university still. I'm very grateful. But I will be very honest. You know, that first year was to. I wanted to transfer out. I felt as though my life was rewritten, you know, in a way that wasn't fair. You know, I had, I had a plan. I had a plan, Mariam. And that plan got completely changed.
- [06:49]
B
So I'm devastated for you because I can remember sort of that feeling in college and having your parents all of a sudden pull the rug out from underneath you. I agree. I think I would been sad, mad, resentful, all of the things.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So you have this rude awakening. You end up at Penn State and you wanted to study political science, but I think that rug being pulled out underneath you might have been the reason you switched to finance 100%.
- [07:12]
A
So my father. After that initial conversation about, well, we don't go into debt for college, and then that turned into, college is not a place to sort of just hang out and find yourself. We don't do that. We have to get a return on our investment. And I, you know, I really was confused. The first year in college. What do I study? What would make me happy? What would make my parents happy? You know, where do those circles converge? And then I went from political science to, I think, marketing. And then finally I landed on finance. And the reason is, is because there was a voice in me that said, go where nobody else is going. Like you, Right? That as an immigrant daughter of immigrants, I was always the odd one out, but it always somehow worked to my advantage. I wasn't somebody who shied away from being singled out. I kind of like made the most of it. I was like, okay, all eyes are on me.
- [08:10]
B
But why do you think that is? Because for a lot of people, that would have been very uncomfortable.
- [08:14]
A
I think it's a personality. You're either the shy kid or you're the kid that's like, okay, let me make some magic here, you know? And not only as the daughter of immigrants with a very unique name, but we moved a lot too. So I was always the new kid in multiple elementary schools, a new kid in middle school, a new kid in high school. We moved so often that I knew how to, like, quickly read a room, figure out what was needed of me to be accepted. So I went into the finance department, which in and of itself, I mean, that's like, okay, you're gonna get a job and money. But weren't women at that point, many women, even some women pursuing this degree? And I thought that would be an opportunity.
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B
And was it?
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A
And it was. And you know, I'll give credit to my college roommate, Bethany, because she came and was a mechanical engineering major. And I saw the university pull out the red carpet for her, right. Because there were no women in engineering, let alone mechanical engineering. And I thought, well, I don't want to be an engineer, but I feel like there's a similar sort of welcome party for, for women in finance. And there was. And, and still, I mean, that was 20 plus years ago. I think we have made advancements in that field for women, but it's still obviously male dominated.
- [09:39]
B
So you go directly from Penn State to Columbia Journalism School, where you did take on debt.
- [09:45]
A
I did, I did. My father was like, if you're going to take on student loan debt, have it be at least for a master's degree or a higher ed degree? Higher. Higher ed. That's what's likely gonna get you a job that will pay the bills. I did theater when I was in college. I was very much in like the artsy crowd. I loved media, I loved journalism. I knew that from a very young age. I loved to write. And so when it came time to kind of decide on internships, I was like, all right, how can I blend my finance education but like work in an industry that is more exciting to me? So I applied for sort of a sales finance sales internship at CNBC in New York at the time. And that was sort of my next awakening of like, oh, I don't want to be at a desk doing PowerPoint presentations, Excel spreadsheets. I want to be on the other side of this business. On the floor of the New York Stock Exchange telling the stories was Maria Bartiromo. Like she was there.
- [10:51]
B
The one woman doing that at the time.
- [10:53]
A
It was Maria Bartiromo. It was, it was many women actually at CNBC that were very inspiring to me. And while you're at work, you have to imagine there's all of these little TVs everywhere showing you the live stream of CNBC as well as NBC and MSNBC. I worked at 30 Rock at the time. I was in that feeling very much like a light bulb had gone off, like, okay, no more running away from what you actually want to do. But how can you do this in a way that you can sell it to your parents and you can actually make money? Cause I realized at that point, like money is important. You know, I was living in New York and you must have known money.
- [11:30]
B
Was important as a kid. I did.
- [11:32]
A
But now really, because it's. I feel the pain in a way that I didn't because now I want for things. As a young person living in the city, I had a roommate who was at the other spectrum of money. Her parents had lots of it. She had a charge card. She was going out all the time and I was not because was that hard. I didn't mind it. You know, I. I grew up in high school. We lived on in a very rich neighborhood, but we lived in an apartment, a two bedroom apartment. My brother slept on a small bed next to my parents bed. It was temporary, but for me again it was a front row seat to see how the rich live and the decisions they make and how they got there. Not always was it, you know, just hard work. Right. Sometimes it was generational wealth. But that's such an education. And I honestly, I Think I was inspired during those years in high school to go, okay, if I want to live in a big house or have resources or have my own business, like it's possible for the first time in my life, you know, living in that sort of rich town in Philadelphia, going to this public high school where kids were, well, of course we're going to go to a private school. Well, of course we're going to become lawyers. Well, of course we're going to change the world. I was like, what? That's possible, Right? I feel like my mind was opened a lot. And I credit that to being around people that had resources.
- [12:56]
B
Well, the idea that when you see it, you can actually imagine being it is what you're describing.
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A
Yeah. And for people who. It was just normal for them. Right. It's what my parents did. It's what I'm gonna do. And it was very inspiring. So fast forward to being in New York, in college, in this. During this internship, living at NYU with this roommate who was very well off. That moment in my life was very much when I experienced the fear of loneliness. I was afraid of, like, being in this big city. What have I done? I don't know anyone. I'm homesick. People don't understand me. But at some point I realized, like, I'm not gonna go home. The summer is long and I am in New York. I am in this exciting internship. So that summer, I just emailed one of the CNBC anchors on a hunch, you know, I would love to shadow you one day. She said, sure, come on over. Immediately, I was like, what? You know, these people are goddesses to me. I don't think they're reading emails from interns, but so that was exciting. I got to sort of see the front lines of what it's like to do live news in a newsroom. And then I started to think about, well, what if I wanted to come back here after college and actually study this? What would that look like? And I did. I came back two years later.
- [14:13]
B
So you go to Columbia Journalism School. That's a one year program.
- [14:15]
A
It's a one year program.
- [14:17]
B
I'm going to say you lived your dream of the shiny school. Like, so you checked it off. I mean, it's amazing. Yep, you did take on debt. And you and I sort of know each other because of my sister who was at journalism school with you, and she says you have unbelievable hustle, which is true because I've done my research and I see that you have unbelievable hustle while you were at journalism school. Which is a pretty tough program. You had like a million jobs, like to pay your bills.
- [14:45]
A
Yeah, well, again, I think coming from the financial background of studying finance, also in college, I was in ad sales for my college paper, which was a pretty big circulation. I knew how to sell and I knew how to before, maybe I. There was a word for it, but like create a brand, you know, and we would get these assignments in grad school, like go interview Someone. It was post 9 11. So we would. They would send us on a lot of assignments related to that. Or we all had to report on a particular neighborhood in the city. And I wasn't the best writer. And maybe this is what Susie's alluding to was like, I was really good at just selling the ideas that I was finding in the city to other newspapers. I was like, look, this is a 10 month program and I know that when I graduate it's great that I have this shiny degree, but what about the work? Like, what is the work that I'm going to show future employers? Right. My graded assignment.
- [15:43]
B
Sell your assignments.
- [15:44]
A
Sell the assignments.
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B
I would get on the phone.
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A
I would get on the phone. I would. So our, our career services department would occasionally send us out updated emails on like, here are all the editors of the various publications in the city in the event that you want to get an internship there or a job there. But I looked at that as, oh, no, these are already people that I can work with.
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B
Those are sales leads.
- [16:07]
A
Those are sales leads, exactly. So I would write about, for example, the post 911 deli, you know, in. On Fulton street that is like the sole store that has reopened when no other business has reopened. How are they doing? And I sold that to the Tribeca Trip. I sold the story to the New York Daily News. I was selling my articles and they were not A plus articles. That doesn't matter. You know, I learned how to pitch. I learned how to take my ideas and make them a reality and to make money off of that.
- [16:46]
B
I find that the younger generation is looking for permission often, like I was an executive in residence and they would ask me basic questions where I'd be like, just take the list and go pitch. What's that lesson that you can impart to somebody who's sort of frozen, right, because there's so much fear. It's so hard to get a job. It's, you know, most people are just doing the assignment, not also taking that assignment and turning it into a sales opportunity. What was, what was it in you? Or what's that tip to get somebody else to go over that edge.
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A
So I think we've already established that I'm not shy, but I think what is more to it is that I was really into my ideas. I really thought they were helpful stories, that they were important stories. And I think that the first step is just to get really excited about something, because that in and of itself is a great sales point.
- [17:38]
B
But how did you take rejection? Because you didn't get yeses every single time.
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A
I knew that going in. I think you have to accept that that is just going to be part of it. You have to cast a wide net.
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B
Did the rejection ever stop you?
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A
No.
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B
Why not?
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A
I mean, I was prolific in grad school. It's like, okay, this idea didn't work, but the next idea might. And sometimes it's not about you, it's about the idea. So maybe you can tweak the idea. Maybe you have to find a new angle. That was actually great. The rejection, it forces you to go back to the project and just think more and get. Get creative. And the rejections were never mean, you know, they were never like, go away forever. It was just like, this isn't the right fit for now, and how about doing it this way? And then we'll. We'll review the pitch.
- [18:24]
B
You know, it's interesting. As a kid who moved around a lot, too, I think I learned early to be a chameleon, which is what you're describing, right? Figuring out how to just show up, read the room, fit in.
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A
Yeah.
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B
The other thing I learned was to treat obstacles like an obstacle course. What you're describing is that, like, it's a puzzle. I'm not going to take it personally. I'm just going to move the pieces around until I try again.
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A
And honestly, if they still say no, what you have gained is a relationship. Okay. This person didn't know who I was, but now they see me as somebody who has ideas, is a little fearless, and, I don't know, I did get some good clips, and those were the clips that got me the jobs after graduate school.
- [19:05]
B
I think it's such a good note because you took a career turn that wasn't obvious and maybe not one that you intended. And yet you found joy and passion in it, which would not have been obvious if somebody. I mean, my dad said to me when I went to college, you should study computer science. That's the future. I spent a couple sessions doing Pascal in the basement. I was like, this is just never going to be happening. But you found your pathway, and I do Think the joy makes a difference.
- [19:35]
A
It does. I don't think this was intentional back then, but it's so nice to look back and go, I was able to do something that was a blend of what I wanted and what was important and of value to my family.
- [19:49]
B
I know lots of people who've been looking for jobs for extended periods of time, and I think the job market is definitely different today than when you or I were in our earlier job years. LinkedIn and AI. It's like people are just responding to hundreds of job applications. And there's so much about crawlers being the way that your resume is found. I mean, it's just a numbers game, but, like, exponentially.
- [20:14]
A
Yeah. When it was a numbers game, when we were starting out, it was different. It was a smaller pool of numbers and it wasn't automated. I think that this is a. An inflection point for, in universities and college goers and college graduates and even, you know, the professional world to, like, take a minute and rethink what we're doing. Because I think it's a false bill of goods to tell a college student who's about to graduate that you will get a job because you studied computer science. Just go out there and apply the jobs I think that are happening right now. The acceptances are through relationships, but even.
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B
Those seem to take longer. And they. So many people who complain about being ghosted, not hearing back.
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A
I mean, and this generation, though, they. I don't think they take. They don't know how to manage rejection as well as. Maybe I'm kind of borderline Gen X millennial. Like, I'm an elder millennial, but I think we just had to learn how to be more resilient and resourceful because we had less to work with.
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B
Well, let's go back to that, right? Because I think you talk about fear, and there was a moment that you did take things personally, of course, and you learned how not to do that. So how did you learn that?
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A
Because it wasn't working out. You know, I was taking the fear that I was experiencing it and allowing the fear to guide me in a way that I did not. I was not in control. You know, I was like, I have to either just, you know, stop what I'm doing or overcompensate. I would let the adrenaline take over, and then I would, you know, you'll read about it in the book, like, say the wildest things on live television. I would, like, what? Oh, my gosh. I told Meredith Vieira that she was old. You did not in so many words. I mean, you can find it on YouTube. It was not what I had. It was like an out of body experience. It was actually great live television. And for that alone, I think they had me back. They're like, this girl, I mean, she just says it. She just says what it says. She says a lot. But, but, but more seriously, you know, it had me rethinking my entire career at one point. Like, am I even cut out for this? Should I just go to law school? Should I just go home and figure things out? It was showing up in my dating life, you know, fear of rejection, fear of shrinking myself and my ambitions to be able to find a male partner that I thought would, you know, be less intimidated. So many ways to cause you are too much. I'm too much. I want too much. I am too confident. I have too much financial independence. That led to another book called When She Makes More about the importance of standing firm in your financial independence and ambitions as a woman and why that can actually work out for you and in your relationship. But, yeah, fear was not my friend for the longest time. And, you know, we didn't even talk about this, but my mother was 19 when she had me. Didn't speak English. They raised me to be afraid of everything because that's how they knew how to kind of protect me, protect me, control me. And I was really, I was. I mean, I. I'm wearing this bracelet, it says Tarsu. Oh, that was me. I was, what is Tarsu? Scaredy cat afraid. You know, it's sort of, oh, farnoosh. You are so tarsu. And I'm like, still tarsu. The fear doesn't go away. What has changed is my relationship to the fear.
- [23:48]
B
But it sounds so easy when you say that. Like, oh, my relationship with fear changed. That is not an easy thing to do.
- [23:56]
A
You have.
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B
You are a fearful child, which is what tattoo means.
- [23:59]
A
Yeah, that's a big leap. Yes. And I think when you are in your 20s and you're in New York and it's sink or swim and you really want for success, you will try to find a way to reconcile with it. You know, and what I always say, what I've learned now, is that fear, there's a history there, there's something to honor in that fear. You know, it is very personal to you when you're at a crossroads in your professional life, in your financial life, and you're afraid because the stakes are high. Because if I go down that path, things might not work out that how you're Feeling didn't just show up for no reason. There is a story there. And at the minimum, rather than just saying, oh, I'm just gonna be fearless because that's what the girl bosses do, I'm gonna look at this fear and try to understand, first of all, where it's coming from. Is it valid? What does it want me to protect if I'm gonna go do this risky thing? Well, how can I do that in a way that's honoring my sense of security, but still do it and get on the other side? And even if things don't work out, I know that I can still move forward. I have done that many times in my life. Things don't always work out in my life.
- [25:21]
B
Oh, mine either.
- [25:22]
A
I mean, who. Who has that?
- [25:24]
B
Yeah, who has that? Because what you're really describing is unpacking the fear, sort of working through the fear, and sort of pushing past it despite the discomfort.
- [25:34]
A
And I write in the book about when fear shows up, how to have a conversation with it. In other words, what are the questions that we should ask the fear? And really, that means asking yourself questions. So if it's like the fear of failure, which we all experience daily, maybe a good question to ask is, well, is my definition of success truly meaningful to me? I have pursued shiny objects and definitions of success that I think others want for me and therefore are right, or others have pursued, and they look very happy, so therefore I should pursue that. But I'm worried. I'm scared about pursuing that path. And it may not even be because I don't have it in me, but maybe it's because it's not actually what I want. And that's what the voice is. That's what the fear is.
- [26:27]
B
So it's almost finding honesty within yourself.
- [26:29]
A
Yes, yes. It's putting a mirror up to your face. Culturally, in America, and I think globally, we're not raised with this idea that fear can be helpful. There was a study just before my book came out in 2023 that looked at how people who accept negative feelings like fear, like sadness, like anxiety, just accept them. They're not, like, joyful about them. But even if they are, these folks more happier, more fulfilled than those who immediately think of these feelings and think, oh, gosh, I have to avoid that. Not good. And I think where the book picks up is like, okay, how do we actually, in this case, with fear, how do you have a sustainable, healthy relationship with fear?
- [27:19]
B
So you're basically finding your way through the messy parts. That's kind of what you're describing?
- [27:23]
A
Yeah. By. By listening to yourself.
- [27:25]
B
Yeah.
- [27:25]
A
Yeah. Okay.
- [27:27]
B
So you leave journalism school, you go work at Money magazine, Is that right?
- [27:31]
A
Yes.
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B
And Jean Chatky, she was like the OG Brand on the Today show.
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A
Talking about so much.
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B
What was that like?
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A
All the feelings. Scary.
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B
She was a brand early.
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A
She was. I remember going to a reception, she had a book coming out, and one of the editors at Money, one of her peers, was hosting this reception for her as like a congratulations on your new book, Jean. And we all came to support. And in her speech, she said, you know, Jean is what we would call a personal brand. And the room was like, ooh. You know, and this was probably 2003, so 20 plus years ago, it was. She was ahead of her time. I got to see all the things that she did, leveraging her expertise. As a financial expert, you're not limited to just writing your stories, your advice. You could speak it. You could write it in books. You could be on a. On Oprah. You could be traveling the country, the world, sharing your ideas. You could be working with brands. I'm sure if we had podcasts back then, she would have one. She has one now, and I just thought that was so exciting.
- [28:43]
B
So in some ways, she gave you a blueprint.
- [28:45]
A
A thousand percent.
- [28:46]
B
So it's interesting. You also talk about Jim Cramer, who's also a larger than life figure. Do you consider them your mentors?
- [28:54]
A
Yes. Yes.
- [28:55]
B
Did they actively mentor you or do you think you just observed and took it in?
- [28:59]
A
Both. I think it was mostly the latter. They were very busy, but they always took me along. That was my job, was to watch and listen and ask questions.
- [29:10]
B
How did you get comfortable asking questions?
- [29:12]
A
I felt like how I could best show up was to show my curiosity, show my interest, and of course, do a good job. But that was part of my job. So I'd say, you know, that was an interesting tip that you gave about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, or I. We. I wish. I just wanted to feel like I was not just dead weight around. Like I was. I was a peer. I was interested. I was curious that. Showing that I wanted to leave a good impression because I knew this wasn't a forever job.
- [29:43]
B
You just said something that's so interesting. You said that I was a peer. I think most people who are assistants never think of themselves as a peer.
- [29:50]
A
But that your place. Yes. You're not the. You're not a senior editor, but you're also. But you are making yourself small. Don't make yourself small. And I remember one of My proudest moments was before she was going to go live on the Today show. I said, jean, you have a little strawberry seed in your teeth. And she said, thank you. And I think I earned her trust in that moment.
- [30:15]
B
Because you were looking out for her.
- [30:16]
A
I was looking out for her in a way that I knew that matter. I mean, it was kind of superficial, but, like, who wants to go on the Today show with the strawberry seed?
- [30:23]
B
No, that's not superficial. That matters. That matters, right?
- [30:25]
A
And I was like, no one else is telling her. Everyone sees what I see. I'm going to say, I'm going to be that person. And if I think she'll appreciate it. And she did.
- [30:36]
B
So you go along your career, and I read that you were fired twice. Not once, at least twice. Is that true?
- [30:42]
A
Yeah. I mean, I consider a layoff a.
- [30:44]
B
Firing, but no, it's definitely a firing.
- [30:46]
A
You know, it's like, you're good. You can leave. Yes, I was. I was let go@thestreet.com and I was let go at another job@credit.com where I was sort of permalance there. My show at Yahoo got canceled. My show at CNBC got canceled. I was working with CNET over the pandemic. Big layoff was let go before my contract was even done.
- [31:09]
B
How do you deal with that?
- [31:10]
A
I think I had, and this may sound crazy, I feel like that first layoff@thestreet.com, which was totally unexpected, literally a couple weeks before, I was told by Jim Cramer, and I don't think he knew either, that he was so proud of me. He was so happy to have me on the team, and I was on cloud nine. And then to be told, we're laying you off was like, I'm sorry. Do you not realize I'm so valuable? I'm so valuable. I just got a promotion. And so that was rough. Of course, I felt naked at the time. I was like, I don't have a title. I don't have a salary. Who's gonna. Who's going to work with me now? But then people did, and I was able to pick myself up and be firm in this position of, like, I am still an expert just because I don't have a salaried position with an official title. I'm still an author. I'm. I still have my credentials. I still have my relationships, and most importantly, I still have my hustle. And I was more revved up than ever. And it was the recession, so not a. A fruitful time. But it Was I think for my industry, for someone who was doling out financial advice was actually like the perfect storm to be out on your own as a free agent during a time when the country really needed your advice. Projects came and being out there, being visible, not actually being tied to one company was to my advantage. And I never really went back to having that full time job.
- [32:41]
B
Right. I was gonna say, sometimes I find that when people get laid off it actually opens up different avenues. I mean Michael Bloomberg's kind of a good example of that. He said he was fire and that's really what led him to start Bloomberg. In some ways you have that story because then you ended up going out on your own.
- [32:56]
A
Yes. And what I have learned from, and I write about this in the book the Fear of Endings, it's a big chapter in the book because closure is hard, especially when it's not on your terms and someone says this is over for you before you're ready, before you're ready, before you think you, you have what it takes to move on in that moment. A good question to ask yourself as you're afraid about what's next is what is something that I've always wanted to do or can now do because space has opened up, time has freed up for me in this moment of goodbyes. What is a hello?
- [33:37]
B
And so if you think about your marriage, right, because I think you talk about your parents relationship and how your mom felt dependent on. Oh yeah, by the way, it's generational. I think we all sort of grew up with that sort of being a bit of. A lot of us did, you know, I know people whose parents, you know, the wife was on an allowance that was like a thing. What is that like for you? Like how did you live that differently with your husband?
- [33:59]
A
I grew up with this fear of financial dependence and all through especially my dating life, I think I, that was a filter for me. Like we're not going to share in the same financial goals here. You know, I, I saw too often at work really how that would play out too in modern relationships where as soon as a female colleague would have a child, she may not come back to work as often or would just opt out. And that terrified me. So that inspired me to become more entrepreneurial. It inspired who I would marry to an entrepreneur. He's not, he's stable, able, you know, he likes to have a job with benefits. And I like that about him, you know, and I don't, don't think that he puts as much value and self worth towards like his Job title. I think that my husband sources more of his sense of self worth and idea identity from whatever's going on outside of work.
- [35:04]
B
I want to ask you about your newest venture because you launched a new podcast. Besides so many, you now have a hyperlocal podcast.
- [35:11]
A
Yeah, thanks for asking.
- [35:12]
B
Montclair Pod.
- [35:13]
A
The Montclair Pod.
- [35:14]
B
Very different idea. What made you interested in hyperlocal and what's that been like?
- [35:21]
A
It's so fabulous. I love it. You know, going back to Columbia Journalism school where we were doing hyperlocal news in New York City, it's why I got into it was it's like I've come full circle in some ways. We're living in a world right now where politically we feel like we don't have any control over what's happening. There's a lot of fear of uncertainty. And I think that feeling more connected and you know this very well, having this strong connection to your community, to your neighbors, to your local politics, to your local schools is so vital not just for our own feeling of connectedness, but so that that awareness can then lead us to make the right kinds of votes and decisions and elections locally, which do impact everything.
- [36:02]
B
It's striking our parallels because I find that you're finding belonging through your Montclair pod in your local community. And we've been doing that by doing the longest table, the potluck in our neighborhood, which also has connected us to our neighbors in a way that, you know, we sort of didn't have as kids because we were moved around so often. I want to ask you one other question. And then we're going to do rapid fire, which is when you and I were talking on the phone not that long ago, you told me the story of how you moved from Brooklyn, where you bought your first house, to Montclair, New Jersey. And it was really a messy story.
- [36:32]
A
In 2019, I joined forces with two other fierce women, exceptionally talented women who came to me, actually. They had, they had the idea of, we want to start a financial literacy platform for Women. This was 2019, at a time when, and still the hot thing was these museums, these pop up museums, we still have them in the city. Like the museum of Ice Cream, the Museum of Sex, the museum of this that. The other thing, they're like, what if we did a museum for women? All about money, this experiential museum, it's ticketed and you go through it and you're learning things, but you're also. It's Instagramable and it's fun and you can bring your kids and you can bring your partner and it kind of breaks you open in a way, making you think about money. We launched in LA because LA is very social media forward. We wanted this to be a bit of a splashier launch with the brands that we were working with and it was hard to sell at the end of the day, I think because LA is vast and to get people to come to a museum in la, different than New York where there's a lot of foot traffic. But more than that, we had so many stumbles along the way. The production company that we hired, we felt kind of dead ended us. We gave them a budget, they kept going over budget. We could never agree to a budget. It was just every day I would wake up and go, what's going to happen? Catch fire today. And I remember thinking very vividly, I'm so glad I have my mental health to fall back on because if I was not in a good place mentally, I don't know what would have happened. I'm gonna have two kids. I hadn't put any of my personal money into this, but we had taken out a $300,000 line of credit. Stressful, yeah. That was supposed to be a bridge loan until we got paid from our brands and then the tickets would flow and, and it, and, and in the end it was about a million dollars to execute this whole thing and we didn't have a million dollars at the end to pay for it. When we did our post mortem, we thought, okay, obviously we're not going to take on any more debt to do this, but we think we can do it again with everything we've learned. We're going to be leaner, we're going to do a smaller operation, we're going to do it in New York, blah, blah, blah. And, and then the pandemic hit.
- [38:50]
B
That was it.
- [38:51]
A
So that was it. So we did all that. We have great photos, but we also had about $300,000 in debt to manage during the pandemic. And it was a variable rate loan which starting in 2022 when rates started to creep higher, it just became bigger and bigger and bigger. Super stressful in all that. I remember thinking I had the great luck of buying this apartment in Brooklyn in 2011. And then it appreciated. I'm a financial expert. If someone came to me wanting to know how to be more financially fluid right now, I'd say, you know what, it's a great time to move, to cash out, pull out the equity. We were so grateful that the timing happened. The way that it did. And I have to say, I felt very ashamed for a while. I felt like, oh my gosh, how did I get us to this point?
- [39:43]
B
Mess happens to all of us.
- [39:44]
A
I know, Maryam, but I just felt like there were definitely things I would have done differently. I wouldn't have co signed an llc. I wouldn't have co signed a loan.
- [39:55]
B
I live and learn.
- [39:56]
A
Live and learn. Thankfully, I had. You know, I remember that fall when things were clear, like, we're not doing this again. I had done this one book workshop that I do every year called Book to Brand. And I was like, what if I did it again twice in a year? You know, like, I usually just do it once a year.
- [40:13]
B
You're a hustler.
- [40:14]
A
I was like, I wanna do it twice a year.
- [40:15]
B
I'm going with you. Do what you gotta do.
- [40:17]
A
Do what you gott. Roll up your sleeves.
- [40:19]
B
All right, I'm gonna go to rapid fire with you.
- [40:21]
A
Okay, you ready?
- [40:22]
B
What's a karaoke or walk on song you'd pick?
- [40:25]
A
I grew up on Michael Jackson, like the Thriller album.
- [40:29]
B
What food would you bring to potluck?
- [40:31]
A
Tadig.
- [40:32]
B
Oh, Tadig. Persian crunchy rice. An alternative career path you would have chosen?
- [40:37]
A
Oh, gosh, I think I would have been a director.
- [40:44]
B
What are you listening, watching or reading?
- [40:46]
A
The Emperor of Sadness. Ocean Vuong.
- [40:49]
B
A surprising fact about you.
- [40:51]
A
Maybe you would be surprised to learn that I dabbled in stand up comedy.
- [40:56]
B
Oh, no, I did read that about you. Okay, what's one final piece of advice.
- [41:00]
A
You'D leave everyone with in this day and age? I think it's important, especially for women to be financially independent. Because I will say, in all the messiness in my life, when things have not gone my way, the one thing I have been fortunate to fall back on is some financial Runway. And not because my parents gave me money, but because I squirreled it away. Trust that when you save your money, it will show up for you. When you need that, you will be so grateful.
- [41:27]
B
Thanks for making it to the end of the podcast. That's a special prize for you. Now, don't forget to subscribe, download, and of course, of course, leave a review.