← The Messy Parts
The Messy Parts
Turning “No” Into Opportunity: Broadway’s Michael McElroy on Rejection and Resilience
00:42:22
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- [00:00]
A
You don't have to wait for a job and for the phone to ring. Like you can lean in and find something you care about and have some impact and you don't even know where it's going to take you.
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B
I think that you have to seek out opportunities and mentors and not be afraid to say to someone, hey, I really admire your work and this is why. Would you be willing to meet me for coffee or would you be willing to. If it's someone at your job to mentor me, would you be right? And so that it, once again, it's a place of being proactive, not being afraid to hear no. You might hear 10,000 no's, but you might hear one yes. And that makes all the difference.
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A
Today on the messy parts we're gonna have on Michael McElroy. He's a 30 year Broadway veteran, he's been nominated for Tonys and Grammys, he's the founder of Broadway Inspirational Voices. And today he's also an associate dean at nyu. But that's not what we're gonna be talking about. We're gonna be talking about his origin story, how he became Michael mc, why community is such a big part of his journey, but also why it matters to listen to your little voice and how to make a no into an opportunity. Michael, thank you so much for coming. You and I got to know each other in the middle of the pandemic, in some of the darkest days of New York where you really stepped in to help us uplift the city, the world, the Broadway community. If I think of your superpower, I mean, yes, you're an acclaimed Broadway performer, composer, but really what struck me is that you're an uplifter. And when I think about that, it really to me in some ways may go back to your origin story. Take me to the home of Michael, the son of a preacher in Cleveland.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I grew up in a family of my stepfather was a preacher minister of my church, but my grandfather actually started the church. My mom, my uncle, my sister, my brother, all of my nieces and nephews are all musicians. I grew up as one of the musicians in the church. My grandmother was also the first lady in Baptist church of the church, but she also was involved in politics and she ran the 21st congressional district caucus for Representative Louis Stokes for many years. She also served on the zoning board for the mayor. Are surrounded by service. Right. When you're the first family of the church, your life really isn't your own. You are really at the disposal of Everyone and the needs of the church and the community. And there were parts of that that I kind of bristled against when I was little. But there were certain kind of vital, like, things that I learned about life, which is, you know, what I. Like I said service and giving back and that you can give back through your art. My father passed away when I was four. And then six months, no, nine months later, my grandfather passed away.
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A
Oh, wow.
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B
So I was raised. Me and my brother and my three cous were all male identifying, and we were all raised by these really strong women.
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A
So what you're describing, sort of being this first family. I mean, there's a bit of a fishbowl effect to that, right. Of having to be on and representing in a way which I could imagine also would bring rebelliousness to a young person. So, you know, on the one hand, it seems so perfect, like, oh, my God, that must have been so amazing. On the other hand, there had to have been messy parts to that.
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B
It was not always great, right? Especially growing up as a gay kid. Who knew.
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A
Did you know you were gay?
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B
Oh, yeah.
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A
From early on.
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B
Oh, yeah.
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A
Did they know?
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B
Well, you know, it's funny. My mom, when we finally did talk about it, she can look back and say maybe there were clues, but, you know, when people don't want to know something, they don't know it. I grew up in a really religious environment, knowing that I was different and always feeling as though if that was known, if that information was made public to my family that I. So I kind of. While I was immersed in this world, there was a part of me that was always on the outside and kept myself on the outside a little bit.
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A
Do you think that sense of being an other stayed with you?
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B
Oh, yes, of course. Yeah.
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A
And did that ever go away?
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B
You know, it's something that I think you continually grapple with, but I think sometimes being an other gives you a certain kind of empathy for people, for other people. But, I mean, I grew up in, you know, Shaker Heights, Ohio. It's a wonderful place to grow up. I was incredible exposure to the arts. So I had these dual lives. I had this, you know, church life, but then I had this incredible school life, which I was immersed in the theater program, in the choral program, and the dance program, all the musical theater, everything, but could not wait to graduate from high school because there was a part of me, and I think it was a part of me that was other. That felt like, okay, when I leave here, I can finally start to step into myself.
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A
So the arts. And you actually going into the arts wasn't something that was looked down upon in your family?
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B
No. My mom was a brilliant musician. I mean, she was a child prodigy. She started playing when she was three years old. But when she got to making the decision about college, there was no choice that she was going to stay and go to Cleveland State University because her responsibilities and duties were to the church. So when it was time for me to go away to school, I remember this so vividly. My grandmother and my aunt were adamant that I stay and go to school in Cleveland and stay at the church. And I got into it. It was one of the only arguments I ever got into with my grandmother. And after I hung up the phone, my mom came down to me, and she said, I'm the one that's paying for this. You will go where you want to go, and I will support you. You will have the opportunities that I never had. She sent me. She let me go. I auditioned. I flew to New York, auditioned for nyu. I auditioned for Carnegie Mellon. At my r. Carnegie Mellon audition, I got accepted on the spot. I pretty much had a full ride. But that's when the challenges started. So we're going to talk about challenges. My college years were chock full of really hard situations, so it was kind.
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A
Of smooth sailing until you got to college.
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B
Yeah. I was like the kid in high school that was the one that was gonna succeed. I mean, I think of in the Heights, and I think of Nina and that whole idea of being the one that's coming from your community that everyone has high expectations for and knows is just gonna, you know, take the world by storm. And that didn't exactly happen when I got to college.
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A
So you get to Carnegie Mellon.
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B
Yes.
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A
You're like the golden child, like all.
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B
The other golden child children in my class. Right.
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A
And so what happens?
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B
Well, for me, it was the first place that I felt like finally I could explore what it meant to be gay. And very quickly, I was. It was made clear to me that that was not welcomed in the work that I was doing within the conservatory training program.
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A
What does that mean?
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B
That means that at that time, the faculty, you know, and I have a lot more grace and understanding now. Being a faculty member, being gay in a training program was not looked on as a positive thing, and it was looked on as something that could get you removed from the. From the program.
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A
That's remarkable.
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B
And did for me and for others. You would get notes like, my note specifically was, you need to act more like a football player or you're too effeminate. Female students would get what they called fat letters. Lose 15 pounds or you're cut. Act more like a football player or you're cut. Now, this is not to put down Carnegie at all. This was standard practice at all conservatory programs at that time. At the end of the first semester for our conferences, we all would go into a room with the acting teachers, and people were coming out at the end of the first semester being told they were cut. Pack your stuff. Don't come back in the spring.
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A
And is that what happened to you?
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B
No, I made it through the first cut.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And then I got to the end of my freshman year, and I knew the way things were going, I was working with a particular faculty member, that there was not a connection there. And I could see the writing on the wall. So I went to the head of acting. I said, I want to be in your class because I feel like I have something to show and to prove to you. And the note had been, act more like a football player. And then the last project was Shakespeare, and it was Twelfth Night. And they gave me the character of Malvolio, who was one of the most, like. I won't say effeminate, but he's the most. You know, he is not a masculine character. Right. And so it was kind of a little bit of a, you know, trick, in a way. I get home and, of course, get a letter the following week saying that I'm cut from the program. So this is May. I can't tell my mom. Right. After all that she's done and all she's sacrificed and seeing people in my neighborhood. Oh, congratulations. How are you doing? You know, it's totally straight up out of, like, in the Heights. Nina coming home. Right. But 30 years earlier. And by August, I realized that I had to say something.
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A
So I literally waited the whole summer.
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B
I mean, literally walking around with the pit in my stomach. And I finally said to my mom, well, this is what had happened. And she was very quiet. And then she said it was okay. We'll get a lawyer and we'll figure it out.
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A
Okay, wait. By this point, she knew you were gay, you'd come out.
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B
Nope. I didn't come out to my mom until I moved to New York.
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A
So you're like, they say I'm effeminate. I need to act like a football player. You still don't have the conversation about what's really happening with you?
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B
No.
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A
And she. I love her because she says, we're not taking this lying down. We're Going to call a lawyer, right?
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B
And I had work studies, so I was working in the office that first year. So I called the people that worked in the office who I was very close to, and I said, my mom's going to get a lawyer. And surprisingly, the next day, I got a call saying that I could come back, but I had to repeat my first year.
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A
Wow. So you did a do over.
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B
Yes, I had to do a do over. And for me, what was important about that moment was it was no longer about proving to someone else that I could do it. I had to prove it to myself. I also understood that these people had something that I needed, and it did not serve me to express my like or dislike of them. They had amazing skills and understood the craft that I wanted to learn and that my objective became, I'm going to drain them dry of every bit of information that they have. They will never know how I feel about them, but I'm going to learn everything I can, and I'm going to prove that I can do it.
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A
For me, somebody else could have been like, you know what? Screw these people. I'm going to go to Juilliard or I'm going to find a different path, or they know nothing. What made you dig in and say, I'm going to stick it out because they actually have some value I can gain from here, and I'm willing to sort of suck it up in some ways.
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B
One of the things for me also was resilience. We were also raised at a time where we weren't given all the answers. You ask a question, they say, figure it out. And I'm trying to figure out for the first time what it means to be fully myself away from this religious space and understand what it meant to be a gay person who's also an artist. And what I ended up doing was creating this kind of Persona that blocked me from actually being able to do the work. It ignited in me a kind of flame, a fire to, like, respect and honor myself and understand that I was gonna be in spaces sometimes where people did not have the same opinions or beliefs in me. I had to believe in myself.
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A
Let's go back to this idea of them wanting to be a football player. I mean, there's so many moments where people want you to be something else. I mean, as a kid who moved here, you know, in the middle of the Iranian revolution and the hostage crisis, there was no room to be Miriam. I mean, I was fortunate in that I didn't have an accent. And, you know, I could sort of Pass. But there was definitely an expectation that you had to be a certain way. And so I showed up, like, reading the room, becoming a chameleon, focused on fitting in, right? I wasn't focused on becoming me. I was really focused on becoming them. And you don't even talk about race in this conversation, which I find interesting, right? Because one of the things I notice on Broadway now is there's so many more diverse storylines. At that time, there was no room for that either. I mean, there was just very straight content.
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B
What I have come to understand is, as an actor, it is my job to be a vessel for many different characters so that I am believable in those roles. Right? So instead of saying, you know, let's explore physicalities, you know, that will help you to be able to play a myriad of characters, it became personal, Right. And for a young kid who is just trying to figure out who he is, that was harmful in my conversation as a person who teaches now is to say, I want to honor exactly who you are. So we're going to choose repertoire that allows you to celebrate who you are, but I'm also going to give you repertoire that expands you in other places, because you have to be a vessel for many different stories.
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A
You know, you use the word personal, and it felt personal as you were telling me the story, right? And so if somebody's in an experience today and they sort of have this personal experience where they feel like nobody's making room for them, what advice would you give them?
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B
I had to learn to be a person who makes decisions out of an active place as opposed to a reactive place.
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A
What does that mean?
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B
That means you can be in circumstances and situations that people are not supportive or are causing you challenges. For example, I was in a specific academic space where I was getting a lot of pushback, and it was really toxic and harmful towards me. And. And I found myself in a constant space of reacting. I wasn't sleeping, I was breaking out. I was stressed, my back, all these different things. And finally, at one point, I went, you know what? These people are my greatest teachers. Teach me. I want to learn. Teach me what I need to know. And it took it from me being a person who was disempowered and at the whim of everyone else's choices and actions to a person who was very empowered, because now I was learning something. Teach me. And then by the end of that time, when I went to make a decision about whether to stay or go, it was based on very specific things. I flipped it and went, okay. Teach me. There's something I need to learn here.
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A
I love that reframing and it actually.
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B
Has served me because in the space that I am in now, those lessons have already begun to come into play. From college, through life, in a career in the arts. All the things that every lesson does not always feel good. No.
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A
Usually the messiest lessons that don't feel good are the ones that you really learn from.
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B
But there's also the other side of it. In certain situations, you have to also say, is this a place that is incredibly harmful to me and are there opportunities for me to learn something before I go?
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A
Being in the arts is difficult, as we know in New York. I mean, amazing, but also difficult. There's a lot of young people coming up. When you teach younger students, which you do, I don't find them to be lazy. I actually find them to be quite interesting and they teach me things. But they view the world in a different way. A lot of them have side hustles, A lot of them sort of have boundaries and prioritize different things, which we didn't really have, but their worldview is different. Do you find that?
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B
Yeah, I agree 100%. I feel like their worlds are just much bigger. I mean, when I look back, I'm so grateful for that. I could be innocent. Right. I grew up in Shaker Heights, Ohio, a wonderful suburb, definitely with its challenges as any place. But for me, it was a pretty idyllic, you know, upbringing. I didn't know what was happening in New York City, let alone in another country. Yeah, right. I moved to Pittsburgh to go to school. Making mistakes that were not going to come back and haunt me and be publicized all over the world. And, you know what I mean, you could be an innocent mistake making young person. How it has changed me as a faculty member, as a teacher, is that I found that I have to teach not only the craft of what I'm teaching, but life skills.
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A
What does that mean? What kind of life skills?
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B
Resilience. It's okay to make mistakes. And that in your practice as an artist, you learn more from your failures than you do from knowing things right away. But getting students to be comfortable with making mistakes, when you make a mistake now, it is publicized everywhere. And then I'm teaching the craft of acting, which is about process, which is about making mistakes, which is about discomfort, because you are growing as a human being as you're making space for the craft. Right. So we talk a lot about discomfort, and growth only happens in spaces of discomfort. And if I can navigate this Then the most beautiful thing is I expand my capacity and I learned resilience, which is what we need. Whether you're an artist or just a human being living in the world, everything is not always going to go your way. So I found that I had to integrate life skills into the teaching. But I also, from my upbringing and my mom, who was a schoolteacher for over 35 years, understood, and I hope that my students can attest to this, is that there was never a doubt that I cared about them, and that when I'm challenging you, it is always from a place of care. And when students know that you really deeply care about them, then they will allow you to be tough on them because they know it's coming out of a space of love.
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A
Let's talk about your career. Right? So you go to Carnegie Mellon, you do this incredible pivot, and you then graduate. And it's kind of like a rosy ride because you actually get a gig before you're even done. You get cast in Shakespeare in the park, you know, with Denzel Washington, Richard iii. Like, you leave with the job. And we know that's rare.
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B
Yes.
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A
So was it a rosy ride from that point on? Like, here you are, you had this terrible turn, and then things just picked up.
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B
One thing that comes to mind is the journey became dismantling my belief in myself and resilience from a harmful situation. I would step into every space going, oh, they're going to fire me. Oh, they're going to. Well, then I'll just work harder. So that's one thing. Yes. I graduated from school. All conservatory training programs at that time brought their seniors to New York and they did a showcase for casting directors, agents, managers, creatives. And out of that you would get two or three days in the city to go to these appointments. We would do our two showcases and then an alum would invite us to their apartment. And then all of my classmates and I, we would sit around in a room until 1 o' clock in the morning while they tabulated from all of the responses by hand all these pieces of paper. And from that I had a couple of pages of they want to see you at Shakespeare in the park tomorrow. You have these agencies that are interested in you. This casting director wants to see you. This is for the next couple days you'd go on these visits. I went down to the public, auditioned for Richard iii and was cast. So then I went back to school to graduate. And by the way, not only did I graduate with honors, I was chosen to represent the College of Fine Arts to receive my diploma from the president. So I started from the person who was kicked out to the person who graduated with honors and was chosen for this wonderful experience. Then I knew going back to school that I would have a job. I went back, and it was unbelievable to be in a space with Denzel Washington. And also one of my favorite actresses of all time, Mary Alice. I knew her from the 70s in this movie Sparkle. But she was the woman who took over in the Matrix when Gloria Foster passed away. She replaced her. And to watch those two people in the space work, right, two African American artists who I grew up watching, watch them work, was an incredible experience. And then from then on, when I look back on my career, it always looks like I was working, but there were moments when I wasn't. But I had filled those times with other artistic pursuits. But I finished Richard III at the end of the summer, and then I had an audition for, like, two national tours and two Broadway shows. Out of that, I got Serafina, the national tour of Serafina. So I went on the road, got my Equity card, came back, got cast in regional production of Fences, went and did Fences in Florida, came back, finished the Serafina tour, then got new off Broadway musical. It opened and closed. And it closed on a Sunday, on a Monday, they asked me to come in for Miss Saigon. And Miss Saigon had opened three months before. And I had been down to the very end. Did the audition at the Broadway theater on the stage. Came home, just was kind of a little depressed. Rainy day, decided to take a nap. Got up, and my answering machine. I mean, you may want to show a picture of that.
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A
In the days we had answering machines.
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B
Answering machine was beeping. And they said, you got their first Broadway show. You're gonna be going to Miss Saigon. And the ensemble and understudying John, you start tomorrow.
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A
How did that feel?
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B
I was numb. I mean, I was numb in a joyful way. Very grateful. I think I said a prayer of thanks. But the one thing that I also knew early on and has always stayed with me, is that the gifts that I was given to be able to do the things that I love to do, had to be separate from my worth as a person.
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A
What does that mean?
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B
That means that every show I've ever done, every time I've gotten something, is a wonderful thing. But my identity, my worth, cannot be attached to that.
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A
So in those moments where you weren't working, what was that like? Because New York is not an inexpensive city.
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B
But you know What? It was 1990. I lived on. I lived in Midtown, which at that time was not the thriving, bustling area that it is now. My first apartment was a faux two bedroom, and it was $800 a month split between me and my friend from Carnegie Mellon. So even though I had very little money at times, you could still live during those down times. I was always doing something, right.
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A
What were you doing?
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B
I got there in 1990 and 1994. I started my choir, but before that, I was always, you know, involved with Broadway Cares. And that was the beginning of Broadway Cares, Equity Fights Aides. And so I was always doing somebody cabaret or doing my own cabaret or, you know, writing arrangements for somebody. So I was always artistically activated.
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A
This idea of like a side hustle or filling your time doing other things is something I often say, right? You know, you don't have to just be in a job or looking for a job, like lean into the passion project you have, and that might open up other opportunities. Sometimes people look at me like, what are you saying, lady? Like, oh, you want me to just do more, just do more, do more work moments?
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B
Right.
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A
But it's something you did, right, and it unlocked things for you.
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B
Yes.
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A
What advice would you give young people or people who are just pivoting in general, sort of in between things? Like, how can they learn that?
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B
I mean, I tell my students all the time when they graduate. I say, you go from four years of someone actually curating your artistic practice. You didn't have to pay for a voice lesson. I mean, you paid your tuition, but you had a voice lesson. You had acting classes. All the things that now as a graduate, you're going to have to pay. You pay money for those things. I said, so get together with friends once a week or once a month and have replays, right? Get together or keep a journal and write every morning. Have a practice, right? Because you never know where those things will lead. And you never know when someone will say, oh, I need something. And you can go, I can do that. I ended up doing a lot of, like, commercial work. I started doing a lot of pre records for commercials and movies. I sang on a bunch of movies. I lucked out and got a huge commercial that literally bought all the furniture in my apartment. It was an AT&T commercial for the Olympics. And it was about this. I don't know if you remember it so vivid to me, this young kid, he's got a younger brother and he takes off in the. In the school bus and leaves his brother behind and he's like waving at him Outside the the window and his brother runs and beats the bus to school. And then it fast forwards to that brother winning in the Olympics and his older brother hugging him. And so I played the older brother. And that commercial ran during the Pan Am Games, it ran during the Winter Olympics, it ran during the Summer Olympics. They turned it into a billboard, they turned it into a full page ad. I also was singing, like I said, on pre records for things because I had that skill, right. And so when it came to a point of, oh, can you do this arrangement for my cabaret? Sure, I'll do it. But those practices then led to when I had my choir or other jobs on Broadway where they're saying, we want you to vocal arrange something. I had those skills because I was doing them when I wasn't making money off them. I was doing them because it was something that I was interested in. The opportunity presented itself and I said, yes.
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A
But you say yes. I mean, I think that is one of the lessons I'm taking away from you is that you have sort of this dance with the universe where you're creating opportunities for a lot of people. They're sort of holding back or waiting for permission. That's one of the things I see with the younger generation. Whatever my upbringing was, that wasn't an option for me. So I was always leaning in. Right now my children are like, could you ever turn it off? And it's very hard for me, which it might be for you too, I'm pretty sure.
- [27:19]
B
Yeah. But I think that it goes back to, once again, the exposure. It is very costly to make a mistake today, even in our work. When I started teaching, students were just afraid to be wrong. And I'm like, that's the sweet spot. That's where the learning happens. I would rather you make a choice from 500 wrong choices than to pick up something and go, this is what I'm going to do. Because you cheat yourself of all these possibilities. Renee Goldsberry, who I went to school with, and she says, you know, when I had brought her into my class to talk one time and I said, what are one of the things you wish now looking back that you had done? She goes, I wish I'd heard a lot more no's and that no is not the end of your life, but it's an opportunity to go, okay, pull myself up and let's see how I keep going. And what can I learn from this experience as opposed to it being something that knocks me down and keeps me down?
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A
Can you tell us who Renee is?
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B
Renee Elise Goldsberry. We went to Carnegie Mellon together and she won the Tony Award for Hamilton. She's as an actor, singer.
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A
So let's get to Broadway. Inspirational voices, right? Because in some ways, this is the morphing of, like, service your past gospel church. Tell us about how that came about.
- [28:30]
B
I came to New York in 1990, and it was the height of the AIDS epidemic. AIDS epidemic. At that time, literally, you could see someone on the street and a month later you see them and they're, you know, a shell of the person that they were, or they were gone. I came on the tail end of that, whereas I had friends who, you know, were around in the eight early 80s, mid-80s, that lost so many friends. And Broadway Cares, Equity, Vice, AIDS became this organization that was about how can we make sure that people are getting to their doctor's appointments, they have access to medicine, to food, all the things that they need to care, to support. And we rallied behind that. We started doing cabarets, we started doing, it's now called the Red Bucket Follies, you know, the Easter Bonnet, all of these things to fundraiser for the needs of those who are dealing with hiv, aids. But what I noticed four years in was that nothing was being done for the community spiritually. I wanted to do something because of my upbringing. I understood the power of the music and I understood the power of gospel music separate from the religious dogma. Right. The music which is steeped in this tradition that comes from enslavement, comes from spirituals, comes from understanding, need to express, to give voice to one's lived experience, to give, to refill the holes that life had taken from your humanity. All of those things, it's in the DNA of the music. And that power is available, that solace, that healing is available to everyone. And so I wanted to do something, an evening of gospel music for the community. And I asked 11 of my friends who were all on Broadway to come together and do this. And people showed up. It was a benefit for Broadway Cares, and it was an incredibly healing space. A lot of people in our community have come from spaces because of their identity that were told, you don't belong in these kinds of spaces or you don't belong in this family because of who you are. So to come into a space that was spiritual through the music alone and feel welcome and also see yourself reflected in the people singing the music. And that was always important to me, that it was always to be a group of diverse artists. And from 94 until 99, it was a benefit for Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS. And all we did was one concert a year. And then it started to take off. And then we became an LLC so that we could do other things. And then I think by 2007, we became a nonprofit because we wanted to have an outreach arm to what we did. So that's when we started our programs with the Ronald McDonald House and Covenant House and working elementary schools in South Harlem. And that continues on to day past.
- [31:24]
A
And you got a Tony for this effort?
- [31:26]
B
We got a Tony for excellence in theater.
- [31:29]
A
One of the things I find interesting about you is that, you know, clearly you grew up in a home of service. But I find myself wanting to help, and I find that I feel better when I help. Right. I wonder if there's not a lesson, but something we can share about how that changes things for you. Like, for me, it makes me feel better. I also think it opens up the world in different ways.
- [31:52]
B
Right.
- [31:52]
A
If I wanted to think of it more transactionally, which is not how I usually come to the table. What did you learn from that? Because you actually passed the baton on that. Right. So you sort of lived a full chapter with Broadway Inspirational Voices, which continues on and is really incredible.
- [32:06]
B
Yeah. Well, I'm actually gonna turn the question back on you because of how we met. And this is, I think, a lesson for young people or younger generation today is that sometimes we stop at the space of anger and frustration and not move past that into doing something and working. And meeting you was about being angry about an article that said that New York was dead. And you could have stopped at your anger and rage and just kind of railed around Chelsea about, how dare they say that about us? But you turned it into action. Right. And actually created a healing experience that you probably don't even recognize. What that did for Broadway actors to come back to Times Square for the first time in almost a year and be able to sing together.
- [32:56]
A
So if I go back and people who are listening won't necessarily have seen a Moment for Broadway, I want you to describe that, because Andy and I this morning looked at that picture of you from that moment with Bernadette Peters and everybody on those red steps. And I don't know if you remember this picture, but I'll show it. Which is your arm, okay. Right where you're uplifting the community, the world, New York. Will you just talk about that?
- [33:22]
B
That was the first time that I was seeing people that I worked with over the years.
- [33:27]
A
It was October 2020.
- [33:29]
B
Yeah. And we had been shut down since March. March. It was really emotional for everybody, right? As I said, when you work in theaters, specifically Broadway, you live in midtown. And to not have been there at all. And the last time we saw pictures of it, it was a ghost town to go back into that space that is usually bustling and to actually sing. And actually to sing Sunday, which to me, you know, for me, it's such an important song because one, it was the first Broadway show I ever saw. And then I got to bring together, work together to have this group of artists sing this song as a love song to the community that Bernadette Peters was there. I mean, it was just so many things happening on so many levels, and it was such a healing moment. Emotional healing. Gave us hope that we actually could return. Were we in hazmat suits? Practically, yes. Right between the masks and the. It was, like, still kind of crazy for us. It was. It renewed the hope that we could come back, not only the theater community, but New York City, which was the whole point of it.
- [34:43]
A
So many people leaned in. I mean, I obviously love Broadway and go to Broadway shows, but I was not deeply steeped in the Broadway community. And there were 700 volunteers who helped make that event happen, many of whom were not as connected as you were to the Broadway community. And I think that was sort of the magic of it. And I saw friendships develop out of that. I saw people get work out of that. I mean, all kinds of things came. And so I tell young people or people pivoting or sort of struggling, like, you don't have to wait for a job and for the phone to ring. Like, you can lean in and find something you care about and have some impact, and you don't even know where it's gonna take you. But to your point, it's not about where it takes you. It's about that moment itself.
- [35:26]
B
And going back to Renee's story about heard more nose. I think that you have to seek out opportunities and mentors and not be afraid to say to someone, hey, I really admire your work, and this is why. Would you be willing to meet me for coffee? Or would you be willing to. If it's someone at your job to mentor me, would you be right? And so that it, once again, it's a place of being proactive, not being afraid to hear no. You might hear 10,000 no's, but you might hear one yes. And that makes all the difference. I think that young people have to be bolder in that way and be more open. There are opportunities that are sometimes existing around you that because you're so focused on what's not working, then where are the places that I actually can find positive things that can actually propel me forward?
- [36:13]
A
You've had a lot of pivots, right? So here you had this Tony nominee, 30 year Broadway career, but then you decided to try teaching, right? And I think there's a lot of people who sort of like lock into one thing. You have this ability to pivot. So what made you decide to pivot to becoming an educator?
- [36:30]
B
Well, like I said, my mom was a schoolteacher, so I grew up around teachers, had no desire to be a teacher. That was never in my plan. But I will say that I always knew that being an actor was not my end game.
- [36:47]
A
How did you know that?
- [36:49]
B
I just. I just knew it. I just knew that that was not going to be where I was going to. You know, like some of my friends who have made a career and have done incredible work, there is this, I call it that really small, quiet voice that when you. The one that most times we don't really want to hear, because that's really the truth teller, right? That says things. Not in a place of emot, but in those quiet places, quiet times, where you'll just hear that voice that says, this is not the end game for you. I was doing the national international tour of Rent. We had closed on Broadway in September of 2007. And then in January of 2008, we started the national tour that ended up taking us to Tokyo and to Seoul, Korea, South Korea, and in Appleton, Wisconsin. Nine months in, I ended up with the swine flu. We took a bus. We got to Appleton. I didn't feel good. I called my doctor. I thought it was just like strep throat or something, and ended up with the flu. I never left my hotel room in Appleton until I had to go to the emergency room. And after that, my voice never fully came back. It was always like fearful going on stage and just what's going to come out. And really leaning into my technique. And during that time of really leaning into the work and leaning into the technique, that little quiet voice was like, it's coming. About time. That next step, it's coming. And I was like, I don't know what this voice is, but I prefer not to listen to this. And literally, I was in the last city of the tour and I got a phone call from Kent Gash, who was a CMU alum as well, saying, hey, we are starting this new musical theater studio undergraduate drama, and I think you'd be right for this position. Can you come in. I said, well, I'm on tour, but I'm back in New York City next week. The following week, I was teaching a class for students. I was meeting with the search committee, and all of a sudden they were offering me this job.
- [38:59]
A
Did you always have that little voice? Because I don't think I have a little voice, Michael.
- [39:02]
B
I do. And I think that was a little. That was at the same place when I was in school, when they cut me and said I had to come back. That and redo my first year.
- [39:10]
A
So now you're at this place and you're like, okay, I'm not going to be in the acting thing for the long game. If I'm in my 40s or 50s, trying to think about, like, what is next for me or I've been laid off, which so many people have, or become redundant or I'm disenchanted with the job I'm in, how am I going to find that voice?
- [39:29]
B
I don't know how someone finds that voice. But I do know that if you are in that place, you do have skills, you do have something. And I think what happens for us sometimes is we get stuck in the thing that I wanted is not happening. And therefore I don't have options when we actually have to go, okay, what is it that I can do? What brings me joy? Who are the people that I've met over this 20, 30 year career that I can reach out to not because I want them to do something for me, but to say, can I have coffee just to talk about things for me, I had lost the joy of doing this. And I thrived on like eight shows a week and being consistent and doing the thing right. I didn't have that same joy, but I would have continued to do it. But something said, it's time to move on. And then this opportunity presented itself and I said yes, and taught in academia, and it was like, okay, well, what do I know how to do? I've been doing this for 30 years. So let's figure out how to teach it.
- [40:32]
A
I wanted to end by asking you some specific questions. What would you tell someone to do before they're 35?
- [40:40]
B
Travel. Which is a hard thing to do these days. Try things that scare them.
- [40:47]
A
What is a career myth that you think is a waste of time, that.
- [40:50]
B
Your worth is determined by what you do?
- [40:54]
A
What would you say? I'm never gonna do it again.
- [40:57]
B
I would say do another Broadway show as a performer. But then the minute I say that, the universe is gonna start swirling around and Opportunities are gonna present themselves.
- [41:06]
A
That little voice is coming. Maybe that's why you said it. Okay, one piece of advice for someone looking for a job.
- [41:11]
B
Be ready to ask questions when you go into a space. Do your research.
- [41:18]
A
One piece of advice for somebody who's pivoting.
- [41:21]
B
Give yourself grace, but still work hard.
- [41:23]
A
If you were gonna rank your messy, how messy was your messy? In a scale of 1 to 10.
- [41:29]
B
I can speak of, I have had one experience that was a 12 or a 15.
- [41:33]
A
Okay, I have three more. When was the last time you cried?
- [41:36]
B
I cry all the time. I didn't used to be a crier. Now you can get any good commercial, you know, or show can get me crying.
- [41:44]
A
All right, last time, you failed every day.
- [41:49]
B
I mean, it's like there's always something that you go, okay, what did I learn from that?
- [41:54]
A
Thank you so much for coming on and being with us this morning. Anything, you know, I said to you, you said yes. I said yes. Whatever we did in Covid, we became family. So thank you. Really means a lot.
- [42:05]
B
Anything, anytime you need me.
- [42:06]
A
Thanks for making it to the end of the episode. Don't Forget to tell 10 friends. Like, drop a review and remember, this is about the mess behind success.