← The Messy Parts
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- [00:00]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
You know, for many years, I sort of just like didn't show up as my full self to the point that, you know, by the time I was sort of at the tail end of that finance career, I almost was like, where, you know, where is the rest of me?
- [00:13]
Marianne Banakaram
Do you think that you sort of self edited thinking that that was the answer to success or.
- [00:18]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Totally. No one ever told me like, oh, you know, don't say that, you know, or don't be that aspect of yourself. It was very much like self imposed. But, you know, I didn't see like a lot of the folks like having the same interest with me. But, you know, I kind of think back and I'm like, was everyone just self editing? I don't know.
- [00:40]
Marianne Banakaram
I'm Marianne Banakaram, the host of the Messy Parts podcast. Today we're going to talk to Vanessa Barboni Halik, the CEO and founder of Another Tomorrow, a sustainable fashion brand that's also a tech platform. We're going to talk about finding your way in the darkest times, both personally and professionally. And we're gonna talk about sort of that relentless drive, what's behind it and how do you find your way through that to find a little bit of peace? Now isn't that something we all need to talk about? I like starting with, you know, sort of the origin story. I know you grew up at Grinnell, like in the Midwest and the Rust Belt. Father was an academic, your mother was an artist. What was that like? Sort of growing up in a hippie, artistic, academic household in the Midwest?
- [01:23]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
It was wild. And there were a few chapters of it. So Grinnell was my dad's first teaching job, straight out of his PhD was a sociology professor, as you mentioned. My mom was an artist. And you know, Gran is this like tiny town. I mean sub 5000 people in the middle of like corn fields. And maybe it was just my recollection of it, but I now think about it as sort of like summer camp for adults because it was just such an incredible intersection of people. It was, you know, things got a little bit more complex when I moved from there to Meadville, Pennsylvania and Meadville's between Pittsburgh and Erie and like Northwestern PA is like a really specific ecosystem. And it was, you know, really a tough moment. It was like late 80s, early 90s. A lot of really, you know, high paying manufacturing jobs just evaporated, like completely evaporated. And the bottom kind of started to fall out of that town. And between the time when I went to high school and my sister went to high School, they installed metal detectors.
- [02:24]
Marianne Banakaram
Wow.
- [02:24]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
And I remember, like, fights with hammers in middle school. Like, it was, like, it was intense. So even there, it was kind of this juxtaposition of, you know, college town. At that point, my dad had gotten, like, deep into tech. So I had, like, that kind of interesting influence as well, with this, like, really obvious set of, like, major social issues unfolding. At the same time, though, you know, my mom was running the arts gallery there at that point, and I had such an amazing, like, home and, like, seed of community and in her world, again, most of which I totally did not appreciate the riches of. But there were just. There were so many influences. And so you kind of had this, like, very multidisciplinary, open, creative, academic, kind of new technology space juxtaposed with this sense that, like, you know, really, like, all was not well. And throughout, you know, it was. It was a tough moment for me as a kid. You know, my mom was in and out of mental hospitals at a time when that wasn't a thing you talked about.
- [03:18]
Marianne Banakaram
Did you know what that was? Because we didn't really talk about those things as. At least where I was growing up.
- [03:24]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Not really. Not really. I mean, I think the first time that it really registered, I was, like, in probably first grade. Even within the family, there really wasn't kind of that much of a conversation. I have a younger sister who's three years younger, so, you know, even less so for her. Over time, you definitely, like, figured out more. And she was very much, like, hot or cold. Like, when she was good, she was great, and when she was not, it was like she was living in an alternate reality. And that, you know, became more and more complex. And so it was. It was an intense. It was an intense upbringing, I think for so long. I, like, not ran from it, but used the pain as fuel to kind of move away from it. And over the last few years, especially since starting this company, it's been really beautiful to, like, look back with a completely different lens and one that's, like, quite positive and just so grateful for all of that exposure so early on.
- [04:19]
Marianne Banakaram
So you basically go to Cornell, you think you're going to be an architect, and then something happens that has you change your mind.
- [04:27]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I actually went out to Berkeley first. All of my friends were kind of, you know, applying for, like, the east coast schools, and I just was. I don't know. I think I just like to do things differently. So I was like, I'm going to go as far away as possible. I think it was the first time I'd ever even been to California. So I went out to Berkeley. I did indeed think I was going to be an architect. I thought that'd be a really, like, multidisciplinary kind of tangible career. And I was sort of between that and economics. And. Yeah, my mom, unfortunately took her own life my freshman first semester, right after.
- [05:03]
Marianne Banakaram
Finals, right when you got to school.
- [05:05]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I was literally on my way home for the holidays. I had taken a flight from California to my dad's place. My parents had had recently divorced, and I was, like, walking out of his door. I'll never. For.
- [05:18]
Marianne Banakaram
I, too, lost a parent in an unusual circumstance. While it wasn't a suicide, he sort of died unexpectedly, about the same age when I was 17. And I don't know that I really even processed it or know how I felt in that moment. Did you have the wherewithal to feel it, or did you just push right past it?
- [05:35]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
You know, it was interesting because I tried to push past it immediately. I had actually already decided to take a semester off from Berkeley, and I was gonna work in Senator Moynihan's office in D.C. and I. I went. I actually, like, kind of got through everything over the holidays, and I actually went to D.C. to start this job, and, like, I literally couldn't do it. Like, every, like, fiber of my body, I could not. I couldn't hold myself together for, like, really, the first time in my life. I just. I couldn't hold it together. And my sister was, like, pretty much alone. And so I just. I took the semester off at some.
- [06:11]
Marianne Banakaram
Is after you finished the internship?
- [06:12]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
No. Well, I lasted maybe two, three weeks. And for me, like, that was crazy. You know, to, like, walk away from something was crazy. But I physically, like. I literally, emotionally, physically couldn't hold myself together. My mom had been living with my sister in Pittsburgh at the time, took a semester off and was, you know, applying to, you know, to transfer.
- [06:32]
Marianne Banakaram
And that's how you ended up going to Cornell?
- [06:34]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
That's how I. Yeah.
- [06:35]
Marianne Banakaram
You know, it's so interesting because as I hear you describe that I'm going back to sort of what happened with me, which is my dad drowned unexpectedly on vacation, and I started school three weeks later. My junior year, like, just plowed right through. And I have this vivid memory of people asking me how he was, because he used to come to campus and take us out to dinner and whatever, and I just would fluff it off. It's just interesting to see that you actually sort of let yourself process that, because I think for me, I just held onto it for much longer.
- [07:04]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
As a result, I think at that moment in time, I almost felt like I didn't have a choice. You know, I just. I couldn't. I couldn't push myself through it. It ended up being a really important time for my sister and me because just given everything that had been happening with my family in the three and a half years we had apart from each other, it was kind of the closest we'd ever really been. And at a point in our lives, it was relatively similar. So there was a lot of, like, bonding and, to some degree, processing. And then it was like, once I restarted school, then I was straight back in it and kind of went in and out of therapy throughout. But, yeah, I did take a beat at the beginning. I did.
- [07:42]
Marianne Banakaram
So you get to Cornell, and so you dig in and you decide economics. Why?
- [07:46]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Yeah, I mean, I'd been exposed to it my last year or two of high school. I finished my last year and a half of high school actually in Columbus, Ohio, which is a whole other story. And I liked it. You know, I liked the way that it kind of helped me organize my thoughts around how the world worked. I was, you know, tied together a lot of things I was kind of just intellectually curious about. It was just like a very intuitive space.
- [08:08]
Marianne Banakaram
But why did you leave architecture?
- [08:10]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I think a few different things. One was speaking, like, pragmatically. I actually started to talk to some architects, and I was like, I don't know if I have the passion, like this very highly specific passion to go the long road in this career and have that level of patience, because I think the job on paper and the job in reality can be a bit different. But I also didn't feel like I really had the freedom to do it. My dad was, you know, kind of. And he was in the picture, but not particularly reliable. I definitely felt like I needed an anchor and a sense of stability in my life and, you know, making 25 grand a year out the gates, out of architecture school, kind of barely scraping things together, didn't seem like an option that was, you know, gonna kind of center and ground me or ground my sister, you know. Cause I also had to think about what was, you know, what was on the other side of this for her.
- [09:10]
Marianne Banakaram
I think I read that your sister was an entrepreneur before you.
- [09:13]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Yeah.
- [09:14]
Marianne Banakaram
Do you think that being the eldest, you sort of felt that responsibility of being an anchor for the two of you?
- [09:19]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I think for sure I had this kind of initially, like, get the hell out mentality I had some guilt around that too. And I was like, okay, I gotta make sure that, you know, Eva's okay. And I also specifically, I didn't want her to have to make the same compromise, whatever that first job was that she really, like, loved and felt passionate about. I wanted her to be able to take that job.
- [09:43]
Marianne Banakaram
So you get to Cornell, you're studying economics.
- [09:45]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Yeah.
- [09:45]
Marianne Banakaram
You take a summer job. Is that how you end up going into banking?
- [09:48]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Yeah, it was funny, you know, that was completely an accident. Like, as you could probably tell, like, there wasn't like a business bone in my entire family. You know, the idea for me of like, a bank was like a teller with like a drive through with a little tube that went under it. Like, that was my Midwestern version of a bank. And I had co authored a paper on electricity pricing at Cornell with this professor that was working in the ecological economics department. So I think that was ultimately like, what kind of got me in the like, oh, girl who does math. But really what happened was I applied for like, all these fellowships and like, think tanky jobs that, like, were sort of academic in nature, and I didn't get any of them. Like, zero. Like, not a single one. Terrifying. I was like, oh my gosh, am I, like, unemployable? All of my plan A's were gone. And so, you know, my friends were basically, you know, applying for these, these jobs on Wall street. And I thought, all right, well, what the hell, may as well. I was a little scrappy, personality wise and like, pretty direct. And so that kind of worked. And then the math background kind of worked. And yeah, I ended up with two amazing opportunities to choose from my junior year summer. And I went with my gut with the people. I really went with the people, which was reaffirmed when the other bank actually yelled at me.
- [11:06]
Marianne Banakaram
But when you declined the job, it's like, thank you.
- [11:09]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I. Now I know I was right, but I really went with my gut, with the people, and also with my, like, genuine, like, curiosity and interest because that, that particular job was going to be in foreign exchange and emerging markets. And that was like, I, I was really interested in that.
- [11:24]
Marianne Banakaram
What's the lesson in that? Right. I just think about so many young people who are coming out in a particularly bad job market. Yeah, you trusted yourself enough to go with your gut, it sounds like. And you know, I sort of love that it worked out because they yelled at you, so they confirmed your decision, but you could have ended up at that job.
- [11:41]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
You know, in hindsight, one, I think, you know, Energy is so much. You know, we spend so much time in our jobs and it's really just important that we are working with people that we find energizing. You know, in banking there's a lot of energy, period. And that energy can go in a lot of different ways. And then. Yeah, I mean, the, the, the curiosity, I just think is such a core ingredient in success. I mean, if you're passionate and interested in what you're doing, you just bring your full self to it and so much creativity to it and so much resilience to it.
- [12:16]
Marianne Banakaram
So did you go to Morgan Stanley right after Cornell?
- [12:19]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Yeah, straight after. So I got it, you know, got my job offer that summer. Amazing. First boss, he had such just, I think, like an intuition in people. And he told me, he was like, ah, you're meant to be a trader. And I was like, I don't know.
- [12:32]
Marianne Banakaram
About that, but I mean, trading, like the most. Options trading, male dominated, part of finance.
- [12:39]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Yeah. Options trading. Yeah, yeah, it was wild. But he was, you know, he was amazing. And he just. You saw that aspect of my personality.
- [12:47]
Marianne Banakaram
Okay, what aspect of your personality?
- [12:49]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
A little bit of a pain in the ass. Like very direct, maybe more than a little. Kind of had a lot of like, get it done energy. And I really, I loved the idea that it was an even playing field, you know, that at the end of the day, there was almost like a scorecard. It was a huge, huge opportunity for me.
- [13:09]
Marianne Banakaram
You called parts of that experience you being overtly confident but internally overwhelmed.
- [13:16]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Yeah.
- [13:17]
Marianne Banakaram
What does that mean?
- [13:18]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
It was exhausting. I mean, the job itself, I had no, I think, like, sort of emotional preparation for, in terms of just like the amount of resilience it required and new information and pressure to perform and like, downside if things went wrong. So it was definitely like an internal pressure cooker and, you know, not a great thing, but like growing up with my dad as an academic, like, you know, dinner table was a debate, but instead of being a debate that was like curiosity oriented, it was like a debate about, like being right. And I think that, you know, I was terrified to not know the answer, and I was terrified to be wrong. And so that, like, outward confidence was very much like, I know I've got this. And I somehow thought that like, you know, not knowing was like a weakness. You know, as an entrepreneur now I have a completely different perspective on that. But at the time I really felt like, you know, I had to be, you know, better, faster, stronger, always know the answer. And that's exhausting too.
- [14:24]
Marianne Banakaram
So it's funny. I had a summer job in investment banking. I was a kid who had financial insecurity after my father's passing and for sure I had student loans. So it was appealing to have that summer job. They hadn't gotten the note about them wooing us to want to come back. So we literally slept under our desk for that summer job. I did not find a real sense of camaraderie in that job. Now I didn't do trading, I didn't invest in banking, but it was definitely a dog eat dog kind of mentality. And there wasn't tons of deals. So where there was, there was lots of crazy energy. Did you find a community at all at work?
- [15:01]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
A bit, yeah. And I think that had a lot to do with the culture. They were really selective about who they brought into the classes, but they didn't structure it in a way that like, it was like two to one interns to job opportunities. Right. So you didn't. It wasn't this like death fight to get the offer. So it didn't feel like there was a sort of like one upsmanship. And so we really, we really bonded as like a class. And you know, again, I had a great first boss and I'm still very much in touch with, you know, a bunch of the people that I started with, which was really cool. And plenty of other examples where like I felt like I was literally in outer space. But like as an incoming class we kind of had each other's back. It was nice.
- [15:42]
Marianne Banakaram
And those moments where you felt like you were from outer space, how did you navigate that?
- [15:46]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I think by editing myself, unfortunately. What does that mean? There were just, you know, there are aspects of my like interests and personality that I just, I didn't see how they fit in. And so I think with the exception of a couple of people, including like a very close girlfriend of mine that I was lucky to work with, you know, for many years, I sort of just like didn't show up as my full self to the point that, you know, by the time I was sort of at the tail end of that finance career, I almost was like, where, you know, where is the rest of me?
- [16:19]
Marianne Banakaram
Do you think that you sort of self edited thinking that that was the answer to success or.
- [16:23]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Totally. No one ever told me like, oh, you know, don't say that, you know, or don't be that aspect of yourself. It was very much like self imposed. But you know, I didn't see like a lot of the folks like having the same interest as me. But you know, I kind of think back and I'm like, was everyone just self editing? I don't know. I mean, it's an interesting thing. I also am not necessarily of the camp that, like, you know, you bring it all to the office, but I think to your point of, like, kind of the survival instinct and also, like, moving around, you become a chameleon a little bit, which doesn't mean that you're performing in a way that, you know, isn't you. But it definitely was that, like, oh, I'm just gonna leave these things, you know, over here. And. And I definitely felt the need to constantly, like, prove myself.
- [17:09]
Marianne Banakaram
So I read that when you were at Morgan Stanley, you tried to quit three times. What was that about?
- [17:16]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
You know, I think first and foremost, I was really conflicted. You know, I had this, like, again, like, hippie, dippy, like, academic family. And I both wanted the job and wanted the security of the job, but I also felt like a total sellout, like Black Sheep, which is such a weird way to like, be split and live. And so, you know, after the first, gosh, nine months of the job, I was just like. It was less of the intellectual interest and more of just, like, the grind. And I was like, I don't know that this is for me. And so I told first boss, great boss, you know, I don't think I can do this. I'm out. I think at the time I thought I was going to be, like, an immigration lawyer, and I just. I wanted to serve. Like, I wanted to serve. And he was just like, oh, don't torture your career. Like, just take some time off. So they kept me on payroll and that they weren't paying me, but, like, I wasn't out of the system. I took three months off. I went to see.
- [18:15]
Marianne Banakaram
Did you have health insurance? I have to ask that.
- [18:17]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I did. Okay.
- [18:18]
Marianne Banakaram
Because, you know, that's the thing. No.
- [18:19]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Oh, that was a huge thing. I mean, not paying you, but at.
- [18:21]
Marianne Banakaram
Least give me health insurance.
- [18:22]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Exactly. I went down to see my extended family in Colombia for the first time. I took the LSATs, and, you know, lo and behold, I didn't find that pull. Actually really enjoyed the LSATs, but I realized I probably wouldn't be a happy lawyer.
- [18:37]
Marianne Banakaram
I love taking tests.
- [18:38]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I know. I thought it was the best one ever. I would take that one again. But I, you know, lo and behold, I went back and finally I actually realized I do actually love trading, but I want to do something that's much more, like, intellectually interesting. So I cajoled Myself into a job trading like short end interest rates and non Japan Asia foreign exchange.
- [18:59]
Marianne Banakaram
I want to talk about that because here you are in a job that isn't totally working for you. You managed to convince them to let you take off time and still get health insurance, which is a thing. And then you come back and you're still not totally happy and you cajole them into giving you a different role.
- [19:16]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Yeah.
- [19:16]
Marianne Banakaram
This is not an industry known to bending for people, particularly for women.
- [19:21]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
True. Yeah.
- [19:22]
Marianne Banakaram
So how did you do that? How can other people learn from that experience?
- [19:27]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I think you need to know what you want first. All of the times in which that has been successful for me, it's when I've known explicitly what I wanted and I've asked explicitly what I wanted. I've been willing to fight for it. I think sometimes when I've seen like, oh, I want more responsibility or it's like kind of vague, or I kind of want to do this other kind of thing, you're almost like asking somebody to solve it for you. For me it was like, no, I want this thing. And this is why I should. This is why I'm the best possible person to do that.
- [19:57]
Marianne Banakaram
So the trading skills came in handy.
- [19:59]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Once I know what I want, I'm like kind of a heat seeking missile. And then you got, you know, you gotta be willing to fight for it. They actually gave it to me over somebody who is, honestly, in hindsight, like dramatically more qualified. I don't think they knew that at the time. I don't think I knew that at the time. He was a brilliant trader. He's totally crushed it.
- [20:16]
Marianne Banakaram
So three times. And then what happens that gets you to actually just walk out?
- [20:21]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Well, the second time I literally did actually leave to go do a degree in energy and environmental policy up at Columbia.
- [20:28]
Marianne Banakaram
I just want to say you have a lot of interests.
- [20:30]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I know.
- [20:31]
Marianne Banakaram
Law, architecture. Now I know. Right. And a lot of people have a lot of interests. Like, it's interesting to see how you channel this wide curiosity, this range.
- [20:40]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
It was torture because I was just like. Because I was constantly searching. So if I look back and could give myself some advice, I'd be like, just be present in the moment, be curious, but take everything you possibly can from where you are right now. And at the time I had that sort of weird guilt around what I was doing. So I was constantly scanning for like, you know, what else should I be doing? What should I. And there was that. That word should is so loaded, you know, And I Do have a lot of interest. So, I mean, I was scanning, like, wide. So I left, you know, left, and I did start up at Columbia, and then, you know, same said early boss, like, was like, you know, Vanessa, there's, like, this amazing opportunity. So anyway, I go back. Financial crisis happens. So grateful to have a job, like, immensely grateful. Also really interesting time to be in finance. And spent a bunch more years kind of, like, building and running emerging markets, trading businesses, which was my first kind of taste at, like, intrapreneurship. Like, I like building things and building things that last, and I like being of service. So that was super interesting. And, yeah, finally in 2016, I made MD, which, as a woman, just felt like big. It was a big thing, and it was at an absolutely terrible time.
- [21:59]
Marianne Banakaram
In the market or for the market?
- [22:00]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
In the market, for the division. There was a huge amount of restructuring going on, like, you know, totally publicly. There was, like, you know, huge layoffs. And I was also, like, out of excuses. You know, I was like, okay, Vanessa, if you really believe in what you say you believe in, which is that you want to be a part of, you know, kind of building a more future relevant world, then at some point, you got to be willing to, like, take some risk.
- [22:24]
Marianne Banakaram
But here you are, you've just reached the pinnacle, this congratulatory moment. And instead of sort of reveling in that moment, oh, my God. Being present in that moment, you're already questioning.
- [22:38]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I think I would probably have, you know, again, done that differently in hindsight. But I was really like, okay, you know, this. It felt like a fork. It felt like this moment of, okay, you know, you're safe, you're secure. This thing you've been, you know, fighting for, you got. You also know a lot more about yourself and what really drives and motivates you. So what are you gonna do about it?
- [23:00]
Marianne Banakaram
So had you met Jay? Were you married by this point?
- [23:03]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
We had met. We were not yet married, but we've been together for several. And I had three kids in the mix at that point, 2, 4, and 6.
- [23:12]
Marianne Banakaram
And did that sort of stabilize things, like, for you to say, like, okay, I'm gonna leap off the tall building in a different way?
- [23:19]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Yeah, I had a family, and I think that in some way, given all the instability of my childhood, that feeling of, like, oh, like, family felt really, like, safe and wonderful.
- [23:34]
Marianne Banakaram
You decide, okay, I'm gonna go try my next thing. How do you land with another tomorrow?
- [23:39]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I made this, like, big pitch to basically, you know, essentially start a new business within a Different part of the investment bank. And the guy who was running that part of the bank at the time was like, you know, Vanessa, I just got here. I've got like 17 things to fix before I can build anything. Of course, at the time, I was like, oh, this is so myopic. Now as a CEO, I'm like, damn straight. But I read the writing on the wall, so I was going to leave. And they very graciously were like, we know you. Let's just save us all the paperwork, like take a sabbatical. You know, essentially, I just want to.
- [24:13]
Marianne Banakaram
Say, for people who are listening is that in order for a company, particularly a company like that, to have given you this much leeway, you had to have been performing at the top of your game. I mean, they don't just do that for people.
- [24:24]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Yeah, I worked really hard and I got good, you know, I got good results, and I was really proud of that. So I took them up on it. But I was very clear. I said, look, I really believe in this. I really believe in directing capital, you know, in service of a different future. So I'm going to go pitch this idea basically elsewhere. And so I was having those conversations, but I was also kind of in this safe space where I could be curious again for, like, the first time in a while. And I remember I went out to this conference, I think it was like a BSR conference. And I was just really curious about how all the major industries were messing up the planet. And I had exposure to almost all of them throughout my career, except for fashion. And I just felt like it was the best kept secret on the planet. I was like, holy crap. We've got all this, like, talent and energy and money going to solve, like, the energy transition, which is incredibly important. But here's this, like, behemoth of an industry that's, like, basically as impactful in some ways, more impactful and really complex. And I didn't see, like, an alternative vision for it or the kind of level of seriousness and talent and challenge, like, kind of fell in love with the problem.
- [25:36]
Marianne Banakaram
Did you always like fashion?
- [25:38]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
No. And, you know, it's funny, my mom, she made her own clothes.
- [25:44]
Marianne Banakaram
I read that you found that really embarrassing, which, you know, as a kid who was trying to fit in, I can understand that would be traumatic.
- [25:50]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
It was just mortified that. And she, like, wore these leopard print leggings to school to pick me up sometimes. I mean, I just wanted to die. So, no, I didn't have, like, a particularly strong relationship with the industry. You were A total outsider, complete outsider. I knew like one person, but I had started to look for real kind of like values alignment in my own life. So for example, I was vegetarian for a long time, starting post college and I was like, well, why is it that like I eat this way but I can't dress this way or like the car I drive has like leather seats like that. I felt that there was like these inconsistencies. So there were sort of some pathways. But no, I mean it was, it was really a completely new space for me.
- [26:31]
Marianne Banakaram
Tell us about another tomorrow. Like how did you land? And it's not just a fashion brand, it's actually a tech platform. At the same time, essentially I got.
- [26:39]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Really interested in the challenge. I thought there was an opportunity to both help consumers find better choices, but also to create kind of a living, breathing case study for the industry to, you know, potentially follow. Not that I know perfectly, but I thought that there was some different visions that could be like a template for others. And it was funny. My. So my doctor, who's amazing, who's like a second mother to me, who was terrified about everything that I was doing with my career, she was like, please don't do this, please don't do this. But then finally she was like, okay, fine, I have a friend who, you know, basically she's just leaving a big CMO job in the industry, like, maybe you should just have coffee. And she basically taught me like brand building 101. Like incredible, incredible kind of mentor, you know, I just started doing the research. Okay, well if I were to do this, seriously, like how would we do that in a very science based way. And brought on two people who did a really rigorous study of like how we apply animal, environmental and human welfare to, you know, a sourcing framework. And then I did a bunch of market research around like the white space in the market and then found a branding agency. It was kind of just like you almost didn't feel like you were starting a company. Because I was had, like had this time and it was sort of just one foot in front of the other until I actually had this job opportunity that on paper looked like exactly what I thought I'd wanted. And I was just like, if I don't follow this path, even if I fail, I'll never forgive myself.
- [28:14]
Marianne Banakaram
There's a couple of things you said that really struck me. One is you actually have the space to be curious again and you widen your aperture. You're sort of going to conferences outside of your space, which I think for people who are beginning to think about how to pivot or what else to do. It's such a good note because if you just keep doing the same thing, you're not going to find this next and then you leave and you're now financially secure enough to begin to invest in yourself because you're self funding this journey.
- [28:43]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Yeah, yeah. Which, you know, I have different perspectives on that now. In hindsight, on the one hand, I mean, just total gratitude to have been in the position to pull the plug on that sabbatical, which was still terrifying because I was so new to the industry. I did have this feeling of like, what business do I have starting a company in this space? And who would invest in my outsider concept? I think now being much more involved in venture, it's like, oh, people do that all the time, of course. But the other aspect that I do think was very real was that when I did sort of my graveyard diligence around what had failed or failed to scale or just went way off track mission wise. There were some companies that were similarly motivated that took on institutional capital very early and things got diluted very, very fast. And so I was very passionate that like, okay, if I'm going to go, if I'm going to do this thing, I want to build it, demonstrate its commercial viability and then bring in external capital. But funding things yourself is also terrifying.
- [29:52]
Marianne Banakaram
You said something about how you feel like funding it yourself wasn't actually believing in yourself to an extent.
- [29:58]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
No. The sheer terror at the thought of asking anyone for money, you know, to believe in you. Yeah, to believe in me and, and my whole life I was just something I hated, you know, it was like.
- [30:09]
Marianne Banakaram
You never liked asking for help.
- [30:11]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Asking for help, asking for, you know, oh, you know, donate to this cause I believe in.
- [30:17]
Marianne Banakaram
But why do you think that comes from?
- [30:19]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Well, the help thing was definitely I should already know the answer. I should already be able to do this agonizingly. As a kid, you know, whenever I would ask for my dad for help with homework, I would get like three questions back. So I was like, never mind, I'll just do it myself.
- [30:36]
Marianne Banakaram
I think that self reliance when you have to be self reliant at a young age. Yeah, it almost makes you. I mean, I used to be mortified about asking for help. So much so that when I turned 16, I stopped celebrating my birthday because I didn't want anybody to have to do anything for me, including showing up to a birthday party.
- [30:52]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Oh my gosh.
- [30:53]
Marianne Banakaram
How did you get over that?
- [30:55]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I think by putting myself in A position as an entrepreneur where I had no other option.
- [30:59]
Marianne Banakaram
No choice.
- [31:00]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
No choice. When you change industries and you know absolutely nothing, you are by definition, just like the least qualified, knowledgeable person in the room. And I think nothing could have been better. For me, at the beginning, it was excruciating, but it just became like second nature.
- [31:16]
Marianne Banakaram
It's easier now.
- [31:18]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
If I believe in something and I need something, I. I am completely willing to hear the answer no, and I will ask in a heartbeat. And I don't think I recognized whether it's investment, whether it's raising money for a nonprofit, whether even it's coming to a birthday party. You're offering somebody an opportunity. And it really took that unlock for me to have a completely different orientation. And, you know, that doesn't mean that, like, I would ask for stuff that I didn't believe in or didn't think was important, but, like, when there's that alignment and the other person can just say no.
- [31:56]
Marianne Banakaram
So you decide to go for the.
- [31:58]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Crazy bet onto yourself 100%, not ask.
- [32:01]
Marianne Banakaram
For help, and you start Another Tomorrow, which is a sustainable clothing line. Yep. Right before COVID Oh, I know. Sustainably sourced fashion. Let's just briefly describe what Another Tomorrow is.
- [32:13]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Okay. We don't think about clothing. I never thought about clothing as being either an agricultural product or made out of plastic. And essentially it's one or the other, or worst case, both. Oftentimes both. And so, you know, when we think about sustainable sourcing, like, you're literally, like, starting at the soil level. So we've basically taken, like, farm to table to farm to closet, creating, you know, regenerative, ethically sourced, exquisite fabrics, manufacturing everything with living wages in Europe, making sure that no animals are, like, harmed or killed, and then using technology to be able to display the supply chain to the customer through digital ID and also to resell it back through us.
- [32:53]
Marianne Banakaram
So very transparent.
- [32:55]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Transparent. So it's like, I think about it as, like, farm to closet, and then closet to closet to closet through resale. And it's not built on constant newness either. So, you know, there's a foundational collection that's kind of like evergreen, and then there's seasonal refreshes, but nothing's gonna feel like out of style.
- [33:12]
Marianne Banakaram
There's nothing fast fashion about.
- [33:14]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
There's nothing fast fashion, really exquisite quality, like luxury quality. And that was where we saw the white space, too. It was, like, in this kind of, like, luxury category, but, like, not obscenely priced. And we were very deliberate. I mean, sort of like, insane in hindsight But I was like, I really wanted the New York Times as I launch article because I felt like that would bring us, like, lasting cultural credibility. And that was what we got, which was insane.
- [33:37]
Marianne Banakaram
Knowing what you want, I think knowing.
- [33:39]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
What you want, which, I mean, again, like, what the hell, like, business did I have saying, like, I want, you know, the answer is yes. The answer is yes. The answer is yes. So some really great press out the gates. But then, yeah, very quickly, things got very complicated. And the day that we launched with our strategic wholesale partner, Matches fashion, which was March 14, was like the day the world basically, like, kind of shut down.
- [34:03]
Marianne Banakaram
How did that feel? And what'd you do?
- [34:06]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Terrifying. Mostly because I recognized that we had to slow way down. It also became very clear that, like, the fundraising environment was gonna get way, way, way more complicated. And so for a gal who was, like, you know, built for speed and, like, proving that, you know, she was getting it done, just the idea of putting on the brakes was like a real kind of like, earthquake, you know? But once I was clear that that was what we needed to do, I remember telling the team, all right, this is a new action plan. It was sort of kind of like, all right, we were going, right now we're going to turn left. And I was just so ready for everyone to be like, great, we're turning left. And I was like. I was like, okay, let's turn left. And I was like. It was a real moment where I had to big time reexamine my leadership style as well. And it was when I brought on. I'm a huge believer in coaching. Huge, huge believer in coaching. And I brought on a new coach, basically saying, like, whatever I'm doing is broken. Like, I need to change.
- [35:08]
Marianne Banakaram
I mean, that is an ultimate help. That's an ultimate taking of a help.
- [35:12]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Oh, yes. Ultimately, we didn't coach together that long. Cause, like, we were not super. Like, we weren't super energetically aligned. But really, it was like, okay, I need to evolve. That was like, right after I started my meditation practice, I guess a couple few years.
- [35:29]
Marianne Banakaram
Yeah, we need to talk about that. Because I read that you love speed, which you just mentioned. You said speed is safe, which I totally relate to. Like, that relentless motion is actually my comfort zone. How did you figure out how to meditate? I need to, like, I don't know, reorganize the closets to have my mind stop. I can't sit still to make my mind stop.
- [35:49]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
You know, I had been trying for, I don't know, 15 years before I Figured it out. And I've been exposed to a lot of this growing up, but like many kids, like, I didn't fully embrace that sort of, like, world of my parents. Not that either. My parents were meditators, but they're definitely like many in our community. So I'd been exposed to it in my 20s. I think I tried everything, and I always felt like I was doing it wrong. Like, you know, I should be able to sit there and my mind just go blank or clear or whatever. So I had this idea that, like, I was. I couldn't do it. In 2017, my husband and I both learned together with TM.
- [36:25]
Marianne Banakaram
Transcendental Meditation.
- [36:26]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Yeah, Transcendental Meditation. And I think what helped me so much was just straight up the recognition that, like, you're going to have thoughts and that this, like, mantra is just, like, an anchor for your mind, but that there was no, like, perfect meditation. And I think in that embrace of the imperfection of it, I actually found a practice that, you know, I could really work and evolve with. It was the first time that I was able to create some distance from my thoughts and actually, like, observe my thoughts and observe myself, and it transformed radically. Like, what did it transform Every relationship I had? Every relationship.
- [37:08]
Marianne Banakaram
Did that help you through this period where you had started a business and had so many bumps along the way?
- [37:14]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Yeah, for me, it was a huge stress release, just like the practice. And I could observe problems with a little bit more distance. And I started to really, I think, depersonalized things that I had made deeply, deeply personal, which. That's just hell in entrepreneurship if you don't.
- [37:31]
Marianne Banakaram
I'm sort of curious about this idea that we become relentless, right? Relentless in the pursuit of success. What do you think that was about for you?
- [37:41]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I think that in many ways, growing up, I felt like I had to, like, earn the love of my parents is the truth. And so I didn't have this sense that I was enough independent of what I accomplished.
- [37:57]
Marianne Banakaram
So accomplishment was really the metric at home.
- [38:00]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I don't think that they intended it that way at all. You know, my. I think my dad, in particular, really believed in me, and. But he would always speak about me in the future tense, like, oh, you're gonna do amazing things. There wasn't this sense that, like, this moment, right where you are, like. Right who you are, like, that's enough, you know? So I think I was constantly chasing a future better state of me that I had, like, kind of checked that box.
- [38:30]
Marianne Banakaram
Have you been able to let that go?
- [38:34]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I'd like to think so a little bit. You know, I'm laughing because, like, yes and no. You know, I think to some degree I'm a little bit wired that way, but I think I'm motivated by very different. You know, I think if I achieve something now, it's much more like I really believe in that and I want to be a part of that. And you know, I think we can do this together. So I think it's. Yeah, it's still a little messy. It's still a little messy, but I think there's a lot more awareness at least around it.
- [39:00]
Marianne Banakaram
And has it changed your definition of success?
- [39:03]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Definitely, I think, you know, my feeling of success in many ways is it's peace. And I mean peace, like a real like inner peace. And that does not come from, you know, how much money is in the bank. You know, it has to do with how you're showing up every day and the quality of your relationships and like, are you leaving this place, you know, better than you found it? I mean, there's so many different dimensions to that. But yeah, radical, radical difference in my perspective on success.
- [39:35]
Marianne Banakaram
I read that you now actually are much more into partnership, which, I mean, I think being a trader has to have been a much more solo sport in some ways.
- [39:43]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Yeah, yeah, totally.
- [39:43]
Marianne Banakaram
So here you are, you know, having pivoted a million different ways. You grew up career wise in a world where, you know, sometimes you wonder like, is enough ever enough. And here you are now in a very different kind of a world where we're sort of in it together and we give each other grace and trust of just completely different environment and still.
- [40:05]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
In like kind of like a dog eat dog industry. And you can look at the world as like a zero sum game, or we can look at the world as a place of like ever expanding frontier of possibility. And I think that ever expanding frontier of possibility, just even that mindset is like a completely different space to live in and invite people into and a way to like think about people who might traditionally be your competitors. You know, like, you just engage in a totally different way. I still slip back and forth, you know, into the two. I can recognize when I have, when I'm afraid of something because I slip way back into that like individualistic like protection kind of a space which happens from time to time. And then you start to catch. You're like, oh, that's, that's fear.
- [40:52]
Marianne Banakaram
So this brings us to rapid fire. Okay, what's your karaoke or Walk on song?
- [40:57]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Alicia Keys, Girl on Fire.
- [40:59]
Marianne Banakaram
Oh, I like that. Food you'd bring to potluck.
- [41:02]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Lasagna.
- [41:03]
Marianne Banakaram
An alternative career, you might have picked architecture. What are you reading, listening or watching?
- [41:09]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Siddhartha by Herman Hess.
- [41:11]
Marianne Banakaram
And what would somebody who knows you be surprised to learn about you?
- [41:15]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
I spent a lot of the pandemic doing hip hop as my stress release.
- [41:20]
Marianne Banakaram
That definitely would surprise me. One piece of advice we should leave.
- [41:23]
Vanessa Barboni Halik
Everyone with have faith. Even when it's really, really, really.