Vicki Freeman: Finding Your Calling Through Trial and Error

Summary

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The Messy Parts with Maryam Banikarim

Episode: Vicki Freeman: Finding Your Calling Through Trial and Error
Date: July 7, 2025

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Overview: Embracing the Twists, Turns, and Failures

In this candid conversation, Maryam Banikarim sits down with renowned restaurateur Vicki Freeman, co-founder of the Bowery Group, to explore the unpredictable journey of finding one’s calling. Freeman, whose celebrated restaurants include Cookshop and Shuka, shares how her path to success was anything but straightforward, marked by relentless trial and error, failures, resilience, and a continual search for “the fit.” The episode dives deep into the realities behind a seemingly glamorous career, demystifying achievement and celebrating the messy, unfiltered parts of professional and personal growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Searching for a Calling—The Many Pivots

• Vicki’s Restlessness and Experimentation

  • Freeman attended nine different schools, trying on majors from child psychology to art history, but never feeling "the fit."
  • Throughout her search, she always worked in restaurants, initially just to pay bills.

  • "Never in my wildest dreams did I ever think in all of this that would be restaurants." (Vicki, 01:24)

• Financial Pragmatism

  • Driven by a desire for security, not wealth:

    • "I never had this thing where I need to be rich. But I definitely didn’t want to spend my whole life worrying about money and how to pay the bills." (Vicki, 03:28)

  • Supporting herself from 18, she enjoyed the entrepreneurial side of waitressing.

2. The Power of Initiative and Self-Belief

• Early Confidence at Ralph Lauren
  • At 19, Vicki proposed to Ralph Lauren executives that she could overhaul their inefficient buyers’ lunch system, despite having no professional cooking background.

  • "Something in me said, I can do this. Which is really crazy because I wasn’t a cook." (Vicki, 06:12)

  • This initiative launched her into 11 years running a catering business, though she realized catering wasn’t her passion.

3. Hit Bottom, Look to the Sky—Finding Openness

• After a restaurant closure and personal upheavals, Vicki describes a pivotal “Oprah moment”:

  • "I just remember sitting in the kitchen and looking to the sky and saying, okay, I’m open. Like, what is it?" (Vicki, 09:35)

• Serendipity and Saying “Yes”

  • The very next day, a friend offered her the chance to run a coffee bar, which quickly evolved into her first restaurant, Vicks.

4. The First Big Success and an Even Bigger Fall

• The Rise of Vicks

  • Vicks quickly became a celebrity hotspot, but Vicki lacked back-of-house business experience.

  • "So I thought this restaurant business thing is easy and I’m so cool and look who's calling me...it was just a crazy experience." (Vicki, 13:24)

• Hard Lessons from Failure

  • Only one year later, Vicks closed.

  • "It came crashing down so hard on me ... I really think I was, like, in a depression. I didn’t work for three months." (Vicki, 14:41)

  • She believed her shot was over:

    • "I had my one shot. I blew my one shot, and that’s it." (Vicki, 14:41)

5. Bouncing Back—Learning, Grafting, and Grit

• Mentorship and Skill Building (Columbus Bakery)
  • Jonathan Waxman prompted her to get back into restaurants, a move that Vicki likened to "witness protection" on the Upper West Side.
  • Four years managing Columbus Bakery provided “the best education” in finances and operations.

  • "What was great...was to have somebody really teach me the finances of it and how important they are." (Vicki, 17:30)

6. Reframing Money—‘Investing in People’

• Funding Five Points
  • Unable to raise large investments, a mentor advised her to sell small shares to many people:

    • "He said, you are giving people an opportunity...the more investors you have, the better." (Vicki, 20:05)

  • A pivotal investor contributed because he had witnessed her dedication:

    • "I invest in people. I don’t invest in businesses and ideas." (Investor, 22:13; recounted by Vicki)

7. Restaurants as Community Connectors

• Institutionalizing Hospitality
  • Vicki’s restaurants became neighborhood institutions, highlighted during the post-pandemic reopening:

    • "One of the best days of my whole life was the reopening of Cookshop during the pandemic...The neighborhood showed up. Even makes me emotional talking about now." (Vicki, 23:18)

8. Resilience Amidst Catastrophe (9/11, Pandemics, and More)

• The realities: she survived failures, natural disasters, major blackouts, the pandemic, and evolving industry norms.
• On the pandemic:

  • "There are times I’ve curled up in a ball...those three months of shutdown were actually...such a good thing for me." (Vicki, 26:17)

• Learned to value reflective silence and creativity in crisis.

9. Backing Chefs, Not Trends

• Every restaurant centers on empowering stand-out chefs.
• The story of Shuka: evolved from a failed concept, inspired by chef Ayesha’s Middle Eastern creations, to a shared vision that became a hit.

  • "Every restaurant I’ve ever done has been about the chef. Every single solitary one of them." (Vicki, 28:53)

• Key: Even big successes like Shuka started with uncertainty and risk.

10. Partnerships and Community—At the Core

• Works with five partners in the Bowery Group and her husband, Mark.

  • "Give up the money for…having all that support and going through a pandemic with partners." (Vicki, 34:01)

• Acknowledges the messiness and magic of working with a spouse:

  • "Our first year, we fought every night…But it’s been an incredibly long learning." (Vicki, 35:45)

  • "I don’t think we could have done what we did if one of us worked 9 to 5." (Vicki, 36:04)

11. State of the Industry—Persistent Financial Pressures

• Prices are rising dramatically, but restaurants can’t “outprice themselves" to customers.

  • "The price of eggs is the price of everything for us. And we cannot just raise our prices in conjunction with how much the prices are being raised to us." (Vicki, 36:45)

12. Continued Searching and Next Chapters

• Even now, Vicki wonders if there’s “something else” she’s meant to do, remaining open to possibilities.

  • "Is there something that for me, not that I won't do more restaurants, but is there also something else? ... It’s hard…to tell you I don't know, but I don't know." (Vicki, 37:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I believe that you should try things. I don’t believe that you sit around and hope something comes to you..."
  — Vicki Freeman (01:50)
• "Sometimes I still don't know what's good for me...That was the best thing that could happen to me."
  — Vicki Freeman, on Vicks closing (13:45)
• "He said, I invest in people. I don’t invest in businesses and ideas."
  — Investor, recounted by Vicki Freeman (22:13)
• "I have to get open…in the middle of this hellish experience…I felt like it was a place people felt a connection to."
  — Vicki Freeman, on Cookshop reopening post-pandemic (23:18)
• "But how do you keep going?…how do you not just be mad at an obstacle?"
  — Vicki Freeman (25:30)
• "Every restaurant I’ve ever done has been about the chef. Every single solitary one of them."
  — Vicki Freeman (28:53)
• "You are giving people an opportunity…you're giving them a chance to be part of something."
  — Advice from Michael Weinstein (20:23)
• "I actually now am at the point in my life that you have to have a vision. That much I do think."
  — Vicki Freeman (33:51)
• "I love partnerships. I love community. I love the community of restaurants. Like, I’m not a lone wolf in any way."
  — Vicki Freeman (34:38)
• "Just keep on trying things. Keep going. Don't just give up. Don't just sit there. Keep trying and keep doing things. But go for things you feel passionate about."
  — Vicki Freeman (40:44)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:24: Vicki on constant searching and working in restaurants by default
• 03:28: On fear of financial insecurity
• 06:12: Telling Ralph Lauren she could do it better
• 09:35: The "Oprah moment" — looking to the sky for answers
• 13:24: The heady days of Vicks—and her business naivety
• 14:41: The devastating closure of Vicks
• 17:30: Columbus Bakery as a crash course in business fundamentals
• 20:05: The “investing in people” moment that made Five Points possible
• 23:18: Emotional community support re-opening Cookshop
• 25:30: Picking yourself up after countless obstacles
• 26:17: Pandemic shutdown as a (surprising) period of personal growth
• 28:53: Why she always backs chefs, not trends
• 33:51: On the necessity of having a vision
• 34:38: Power of partnerships and community
• 36:45: Financial challenges plaguing restaurants post-pandemic
• 37:41: Remaining open to future pivots and passions
• 40:44: Vicki’s core advice: keep going, try things, follow passion

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Rapid-Fire Q&A (38:35–41:00)

• Karaoke or walk-on song:
  • Refuses to sing, but likes Paul Simon or, as offered by Maryam, “Girl on Fire”
• Potluck go-to:
  • Smoked fish and bagels from Russ and Daughters
• Alternate career:
  • Small grocery store owner, maybe fashion
• Current reads/watch:
  • Re-reading Eckhart Tolle’s New Earth; watched “The Order”
• Unexpected fact:
  • Has terrible stage fright

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Advice: For Listeners Still Searching

"Just keep on trying things. Keep going. Don’t just give up. Don’t just sit there. Keep trying and keep doing things. But go for things that you feel passionate about. I really feel strongly that if you’re passionate about it, if you love it, it will probably work." (Vicki, 40:44)

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Tone of the Conversation:
Raw, honest, and encouraging—full of warmth, humor, humility, and a “keep-it-real” attitude about success, failure, partnership, and perseverance.

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Transcript

[A]

I was constantly looking for, what is it that I want to do? I was just always looking for something that felt like a fit. The whole time that I was searching and looking, I was working in restaurants. Never in my wildest dreams did I ever think in all of this that would be restaurants.

[B]

Welcome to the Messy Parts, the podcast where remarkable leaders share the twists, turns and pivots that shape their uneven journeys. I'm Maryam Banakaram, and I get it because I've lived it. 19 companies, 3 degrees, and countless career detours from NBC to Hyatt hotels, and everything in between. If you've ever felt unsure about your path, well, you're in the right place. Today I'm talking to Vicki Freeman. She's a co founder of the Bowery Group. She has multiple successful restaurants that you've heard of, from Cook Shop to. To Chouquette. But you know what's interesting? She never actually thought that she would go into the restaurant business. In fact, she started working in restaurants, like many of us, as a way to just make some cash while she figured out what she really wanted to do. Now, that sounds familiar, right? Her journey, it's had many pivots. And what really comes through in Vicki's story is when things don't work out, she had a way to pick herself back up. And I'm telling you, she has a lot of pivots. And so if you're worried that you're never gonna figure it out, you're gonna wanna hear from Vicki. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

[A]

Listen, Miriam, thank you so much for having me. I am really excited to be here.

[B]

I read that you went to nine schools, which, you know, to somebody who went to three, seems like a lot. And I thought, why don't you tell us a little bit about that journey, because you were clearly on a search for something.

[A]

I was constantly looking for what it is that I wanna do. And. And a lot of the things were things that I would say I thought I wanted to do until I actually did them. I believe that you should try things. I don't believe that you sit around and hope something comes to you, which I'm gonna actually refute that in a little while. But I think that I was just always looking for something that felt like a fit. And what was interesting about all of it is the whole time that I was searching and looking, I was working in restaurants. And that was just a means to an end, a means to pay for school, you know, to make money. Never in my wildest dreams. Did I ever think in all of this that would be restaurants? So I went to school in San Francisco State for child psychology. I was like, uh, I don't really feel that. I also went to the Academy of Art college for fashion photography. And although I very much felt that, I really truthfully realized that I wasn't as talented as a lot of the people there. And I didn't feel like it was something that I could learn to be talented. Either you have that real artistic part of it in you or you don't. So after about maybe two years, I really thought, you know what? I'm also not willing to struggle my whole life to try to make a living at something that I don't feel that I'm so exceptional at and have something so much more than somebody else.

[B]

So it was a combination of something you were interested in. And I want to really unpack, like what a fit is. Because I think so many people are trying to figure out what to do with themselves. And then the second part was that you could actually make money at it too, in some way.

[A]

Yes. I never had this thing where I need to be rich. But I definitely didn't wanna spend my whole life worrying about money and how to pay the bills. And it was something I was very clear on from an early age. I mean, I had a mother who we did have enough money growing up, but I always felt like we didn't. Cause she never felt like we did. And I was very strong in the belief of my. That I just wanna know I can make a living and not worrying about paying the bills.

[B]

And so is that why throughout these nine different schools that you tried, you were always working as a waitress? Cause it was lucrative. I mean. Cause, you know, somebody will say, well, how did she do that? How could she afford to do that?

[A]

I had to because I had to make a living. I mean, I supported myself from 18 on. I also loved working in restaurants. So I managed to find something. I'm probably one of the few people. I loved being a waitress. I loved the entrepreneurial part of it. I loved that the more you work, the more money you made, the nicer you were to gu. The more money you made. Like, I was very sort of clear on that and I loved it, but I didn't have a choice. I had to work.

[B]

I remember your first big break was working at Ralph Lauren. Did I get that right?

[A]

You got that completely right. Someone I knew sort of ran this thing at Ralph Lauren where they had buyers weeks and they would have all these showrooms and the buyers would be in the showrooms, and they didn't want them to get up and leave and go out to lunch. I think they also didn't really want them to have a drink, but they didn't want them to go out to lunch because they wanted them to keep buying. So what we did is we would walk in, take an order, come back to this little kitchen we had, and order out from sort of gourmet places in the neighborhood. And then we would put them on nice Ralph Lauren china and deliver them into the rooms. And after doing two of these buyer weeks, they're called, I was like, this is a terrible system. And I will tell you, to this day, I have no idea what got into me. But I was 19 years old, and I went to Ralph Lauren and this vice president named Peter Strom. And I said, this is terrible system. Because what would happen was some Someone would get their lunch, and they didn't either like it or it had mustard, or they didn't want mustard. And we'd have to call the place again and get a whole new order and wait for it. I was like, this is crazy. I said, if I do all the cooking, we'll have it in this kitchen. And I can get you exactly what you want. And if it's not, we can get you something else. And I was like. So I went to them and said, I can do a much better job at this.

[B]

Okay, so let's pause here. Cause this is worth unpacking. You're 19 years old. Really? You're working as a waitress. You're one of the. A few waitresses working.

[A]

A whole bunch of them, right?

[B]

Working at Ralph Lauren's offices. Nobody's asking your opinion. And you have the chutzpah to say, hey, I can do this better. Not just to yourself, but actually to Ralph Lauren. And you do that, and it changes the course of your trajectory. What made you have the courage to say that?

[A]

I just didn't think what was happening was going well. And I think almost being so young helped because I didn't really understand Ralph Lauren. But it was still a bit personal. So it wasn't quite in a huge headquarter. There wasn't a Ralph Lauren Paris, you know, so there was still enough where I could actually go talk to Ralph. Something in me said, I can do this. Which is really crazy because I wasn't a cook. I wasn't any of these things. I think part of it was my whole life, I've been obsessed with food as a family. We ate dinner out three Times a week. And I would go to, which was a different thing than it is now, but I would go to like Balducci's, which is where the Jefferson Market Library is right now, and taste cheese. And I think they thought it was hysterical that this nine year old was tasting cheese, you know, or whatever. And I don't know, I think it was my belief in that, which I didn't, by the way, that I thought I knew food and could do it.

[B]

But you clearly had a belief in yourself and then put it out there. Right? I mean, a lot of times people have a hard time doing that. And this is a great example of somebody who did it. And then where did that leave? Cause this worked out for you.

[A]

So surprisingly, this situation was not what got me into the food business particularly. I did it and it turned out great. I truthfully kind of hated it. I've never really loved catering to this day. And that's what it was like. Like I would be at 5:00 in the morning at Western Beef, which was on 14th street, buying stuff. And the way it really worked out is they never for some reason told me what I had to do and what I had to cook. I would just think, what do I think these people want? What are they looking for? And I had to have some choices. It wasn't quite as bad as it is now. There were no gluten free people and it wasn't quite as crazy. But I think it was my love of food that made me think I could do this.

[B]

Okay, so even here you weren't thinking the restaurant business was your it or your purpose, but for 11 years you basically had a catering business.

[A]

I did.

[B]

What were you thinking you were still looking for?

[A]

I was looking for it. I was looking for what is that thing that I'm really going to love doing? And I really looked. I mean, like I said, I went to Parsons, I went more for photography, not just fashion. And I went to NYU film school and I worked on one film and was like, this is definitely not it. What? Part of the problem is, I don't know why I kept picking things that were slow moving. And I am not a slow moving person. If you've ever worked on a film, it's five minutes of action and two hours of nothing. I thought the film thing was gonna drive me crazy. The last thing is I went to Columbia University for art history and worked in a gallery for two days. Again, what did I pick? You know, I picked something. I mean, have you gone to a gallery? I don't know. Yeah, I like art, but it was like, I don't know what made me pick these things, you know, But I kept picking things that were not right.

[B]

So a lot of people who are busy, and I definitely have this disease. Many people think I'm like the Energizer Bunny. I think I channel my anxiety into being busy. Do you think that that's a thing?

[A]

100%. That's what I think it is. I think I can't sit probably with myself in a quiet room and listen to my brain talk. So if I'm busy, I'm going, and I'm not just in that space.

[B]

So interesting. So you just kept trying, Trying different things until. Okay, now bring us to this moment.

[A]

So what happened really was in 1992, I want to say I was working in a restaurant called the Rose Cafe, which was the first restaurant I really worked in that was a great restaurant with a great chef and a pastry chef and all this kind of stuff. I mean, I always loved working in restaurants, but I really loved working in this one. So I was working in this restaurant. The restaurant closed pretty quickly without a whole lot of notice. I broke up with my 10 year boyfriend. And I was just sitting there going, I have nothing. I sat in my kitchen of my Soho apartment that I shared with my brother. And I just remember sitting in the kitchen and looking to the sky and saying, okay, I'm open. Like, what is it? I still. Here I am.

[B]

This is kind of like your Oprah moment.

[A]

It was. I hate to say it because it wasn't even that I was particularly spiritual then, or it was all God. It was just something. It was coming back into reality. And on top of it, the guy I was seeing before I left was sleeping with my best friend.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So, yeah, okay, good drama, good drama. But I just sat there and said, okay, I'm not any further ahead. Right. Like, I still don't know what I want to do. How old were you? 31.

[B]

So stressful.

[A]

Very stressful. Because. So I come from a family of achievers. And I think that was also part of the problem because nobody in my family, as much as they're all food obsessed, all loved restaurants. You did not go in the restaurant business.

[B]

Okay, we're in Soho in the apartment you're sharing with your brother. You're looking up at the sky and you're saying, I'm open. And what happens?

[A]

I am not kidding you. Later that day, I got a call from a friend. He owned a building on Broome street, and he said, as one does as one does. And he's like, I have this coffee bar in this building that was owned by Suzanne Vega, which I don't know if anyone knows anymore.

[B]

Of course, she went to partner Tom Stocker.

[A]

So she owned this coffee bar in a half underground space on Broome street in Soho, on this nondescript block. And he was like, do you wanna do a coffee bar with me? And I said, yes, because why not?

[B]

Why not?

[A]

Nothing else coming in. I had to assume this meant something. That this call from the very next day, out of the blue, when I still had no plan, and now I was stressing.

[B]

I'm seeing many of our listeners looking up at the sky saying, I'm open.

[A]

What's coming not very long into it, he said, you know what? How about we do a restaurant? We're never really gonna make any money. Not that he particularly needed the money from either of those things. And really, again, I'm not sure what made me say yes. Cause I really wasn't ready, which we'll get into. But I said, yeah, let's open a restaurant. I had worked in restaurants for all of my adult life at that time. And that's really how all of this started. And then we opened a restaurant called Vicks. And that was, to this day, one of the craziest experiences I've ever had. Because it was, like I said, halfway underground. It just hit something right away. I mean, there was limos down the block. It was just the craziest experience I've ever had. And it was filled to the brim with movie stars, models. I mean, I was getting calls like Julie Roberts and Meg Ryan. Want to come in? Da da da da da da da. But here's the thing. I really wasn't ready. And I didn't have the business background. I didn't have the back of the house financial background. I knew how to make a great restaurant. It was a great restaurant.

[B]

And what was your partner doing, the one who'd made the phone call to you?

[A]

Oh, he had nothing to do with it. He was just the backer. I mean, he lived in the building. I saw him. And he really didn't want to have anything to do with the backup.

[B]

So you had to do all of it. Front of the house, back of the house.

[A]

The business side.

[B]

I see.

[A]

So I thought this restaurant business thing is easy and I'm so cool and look who's calling me. I mean, I wasn't 100% there, but there was a part of me that was like, believed it. And I think I got Pretty heady about the whole thing, because every day it was unbelievable. It really was. It was just a crazy experience.

[B]

How long did it last?

[A]

Only one year. And it came crashing down so hard on me. When we don't know what's good for us. And I say this to this day, sometimes I still don't know what's good for me. That was the best thing that could happen to me. And I know people like to say all this kind of like, it was so good, but I don't know who I'd be or what I would be if I kept going.

[B]

Good. Because it was a failure.

[A]

Yes. Yes. I think that failure of that was really good for me, personally and professionally. It was still doing really well when it closed. But someone very famous with much more experience than me offered my partner to take the space over with him. And we were not making a ton of money for sure. I didn't know how to really make money, and we just spent money. When he got this offer, he tried to get me out. I wouldn't get out at first, but eventually I got out and the place closed for, like, three years. Because the people who wanted it never took it.

[B]

Let's go back. So now it ends, right? I mean, are you just devastated?

[A]

So. I'm beyond devastated. I mean, I really think I was, like, in a depression. I didn't work for three months. I went on unemployment, which for some reason, at my youth, I was like, I'm never going on unemployment. Unemployment is for, like, you know, whatever. And I went. I mean, I literally couldn't work, couldn't do anything. Like, it wasn't good. And I really believed in my soul and heart. I'm never gonna have another restaurant who would ever invest in me again. You know, this is it. I had my one shot. I blew my one shot, and that's it. And now I gotta find a whole other thing that I wanna do.

[B]

Did you do this? I'm in soho. I'm looking up at the sky, and what's the world bringing me? Moment.

[A]

No, I did not. I mean, I'll be really honest. I just was, like, lying in bed. And then. Here's the funny part of the story. So after about three months, there's a knock on the door. And it's Jonathan Waxman, who had known my husband, Mark, for years and years. And he was a regular at Vicks, but he actually stole Mark from Vicks. So I hated Jonathan Waxman. So he knocked on the door and he said, come on, you have to go to work. I'm like, did Mark call you? He goes, yeah. I was like, oh, absolutely not. I'm not. And I'm definitely not working in a restaurant again because I was humiliated on top of everything else. I'm like, so when am I gonna go be the manager of someone else's restaurant and say hi to every. It just seemed I was lying in bed trying to think of a whole alternate career at this point again, because I was like, I can't go back. So anyway, he said, listen, he goes, you have to go to work. And unemployment was over. I'm opening up this bakery cafe with Mark on the Upper west side. And he said, why don't you come run it for four months, help us get it open, and then you can do whatever you want. And I went, all right. And to me, going to the Upper west side, which it actually was, was like the witness protection program, so. Right.

[B]

You weren't gonna run into your friends.

[A]

Nobody cared. I don't think in the whole time I was there, one person ever said, didn't you own Vicks? Like, it was like. I was like, this is so great.

[B]

I have to ask you. So by this point, did you know that you'd committed to the restaurant business as you're it? No. You still were searching.

[A]

I still was searching, you know, but I thought, I can at least do this. I mean, I did think I wanted someday to open another restaurant, but I just figured I was.

[B]

But you weren't like, oh, I'm gonna go study, I don't know, finance or art history or something else now.

[A]

At that point, I was just. I was fully committed to this place. Like, I said, okay, I'll come work for you. And it was an all encompassing job. And I love. Like, we did 1500 covers a day. So when I told you that I wanted to be busy, I mean, some of it was takeout coffees, but it was nonstop opening till closing. And I did tell everybody. I was like, I will be opening another restaurant someday. And I told Michael Weinstein, who's the head of arc. I'm like, just so you know. You know, like, you had a cover story, right? You know, I said, but I'll do this for now, and blah, blah, blah. I mean, I was there for four years, and it was the best education I could possibly get.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Because arc, they really were all about the finances, the bottom line, the structure. And I needed all of that so badly. And every week I would have to go to, you know, the head office and just go through our P and LS and I Can't tell you how great they were to me. And on top of it, I got to really do this incredible project. But what was great for me, it wasn't the reason I did it, but it turned out to be the reason I did it, was to have somebody really teach me the finances of it and how important they are.

[B]

So you do this for four years. And then what happened?

[A]

I started looking for places because I wanted to do another restaurant.

[B]

So at this point, are you committing to restaurants being here?

[A]

At this point, I'm committing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think when we finally made Columbus Bakery work, and I really can't even take credit for it, it really was this guy, Michael Weinstein. I mean, we were lucky to have the money behind us to make it work. And we ended up doing bread for all the restaurants. And I thought, I'm gonna get another restaurant. I'm gonna find it. I had no idea how I was gonna raise the money.

[B]

Okay, what was the next restaurant?

[A]

So the next restaurant was Five Points, which was in NoHo, on Great Jones Street. It took me four years to find it. I finally found it, and it wasn't even like I was in love with it. It was, again, someone I knew. He didn't own the space, but he lived in the building. He's like, there's this space. We should do it. We got this space. And I could not raise the money. I just could not raise the money for a few months. And the landlord was amazing. And finally he said, vicki, I have to put an end date on this. Cause I have to rent out this space. And I can't to this day tell you how many months, but months. And I would raise, like, not much. And finally I went to Michael Weinstein and I said, amazing, Michael. I just can't raise the money for this. And he said. Which changed everything. He didn't give me any money. He doesn't invest in other people's restaurants. I don't know to this day. But he just didn't give me any money. And I wasn't really looking for him to save me in that way, because I also didn't want to work for somebody else. And he said, you're asking for two big chunks of money. He said, I want you to sell shares. Like, there's 100 shares, and shares are whatever amount they are. And I would be like, you have to buy five shares. Because I didn't want to have tons of investors. He goes, why? He goes, the more investors you have, the better. The more people that are committed to coming to your restaurant, committed to your restaurant. So he said, I want you to ask everybody that you ever see if they want to invest and they can buy as little as one share.

[B]

So he reframed the problem for me.

[A]

He reframed it completely for me, and it changed everything. And to this day, I hate raising money. I've never gotten in myself, better at it. Like, for some reason, it always feels to me like I'm just asking you for money. And he was like, we're going to reframe this. He goes, you are giving people an opportunity.

[B]

You're giving them a chance to give.

[A]

Them a chance to be part of something. But it got really bad, though, because everybody I saw, I saw dollar signs. Like, I'm sure you have a face. I just started asking everybody. And I mean everybody. And so we were finally down to the day before, the last day that we had to raise the money. And we still needed. I can remember to this day, we needed $240,000. And it was a lot of money. Now. It was a huge amount of money. Then I just thought, we're not going to do it. And I was at Columbus Bakery, and my best friend, who worked at Columbus Bakery with me, and she had managed at Vicks with me, and she was gonna partner with me at Five Points. And she said, we never asked Christians. We've been coming in the whole time that I worked there, but it's not one. I mean, I said, hi. But he was not among the millions of guests that I talked to. So anyway, we chased him down the street, and we said, we're opening a restaurant, and we really think you should invest. It's gonna be a great investment. I mean, we weren't even particularly professional in this. And he said, okay, I'm interested in hearing it. He said. I said, can you meet us tomorrow? He goes, yeah, we met him the next day in his car, and he said, what's the concept? And blah, blah, blah. And he didn't even ask me that many questions.

[B]

But he gave you the money?

[A]

And I said, I kind of need the money today. And he said, how much do you need? And I said, $240,000, which really felt like a million dollars. It was a lot of money. And he said, yes. So here's the yes. And whoever's listening to this, this is where we don't know what's good for us is. He said, I invest in people. He said, I don't invest in businesses and ideas. I invest in people. He said, I have watched you for four years work your Ass off in that space. And he said, so I'm giving you the money because I invest in people. And did I think while I was making sandwiches and cappuccinos that anybody noticed or I was going to get my biggest investor who invested in every. He invested in every restaurant I've ever had after that? Yes.

[B]

Amazing. So at this point, you get the investment for what becomes the first of your currently five restaurants.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you've had restaurants, like, 18 years.

[A]

Well, I had more.

[B]

I know, but longevity in restaurants is an unusual thing. And you now have five restaurants, and they're almost institutions in the community. And I mean, like in the neighborhood in which they operate. Right. Vic's over in the East Village, Cookshop in Chelsea. I mean, do you consider yourself a community builder as well as a restaurateur?

[A]

I mean, I don't know if I called it this, but I loved making connection with people. I love the restaurant business. I love food. I loved all that, for sure, but it was the people.

[B]

But your restaurants are almost like a convening place. I read a story about Cookshop and what happened when you first reopened in the middle of the pandemic.

[A]

That was crazy, right?

[B]

I mean, the neighborhood showed up for you. That's an unusual story.

[A]

One of the best days of my whole life was the reopening Cookshop during the pandemic because a, we had no idea what was gonna happen. And it had been closed for three months, and we were opening it a bit weird. Only outside, you know, I had blankets. We had the whole nine yards. But I didn't know if anybody was gonna come. I mean, the neighborhood showed up. Even makes me emotional talking about now. But they brought me champagne and, like, baked goods and everybody, you know, people were clamoring to get a table, and I just thought, there's two times in my life that I had this feeling. One was the day after 9, 11 at 5 points because the whole neighborhood was shut down. You know, I don't know if you remember, below 14th street, there was no. You couldn't get trucks. Like, we were carting food in. But I had to open for the neighborhood. The two places I've had probably the most regulars were Cookshop and Five Points. And I was like, I have to get open and cook shop. Had that in the middle of this hellish experience that I felt like it was a place that people felt a connection to.

[B]

Okay, I'm gonna ask you because, I mean, it's such an amazing trajectory that you've had. Was there one obstacle in the Midst of this journey that you think about a lot. I mean, is it the money raising? What's the biggest obstacle you think you faced?

[A]

Yes, there's a lot of obstacles. There isn't some. I mean, if any way I'm making this sound easy, it is not. So, I mean, obviously the biggest one was the first closing of vix. Cause I thought that was the end. I've been through so much. I mean, nine, 11 hurricanes, blackouts, pandemics. There's been so many things where I thought it was the end.

[B]

So how do you pick yourself back up?

[A]

Well, I don't know, really. I mean, I think you just have to. Okay, I was gonna walk away. What the hell, here I am again. If I walked away, what was I going to do? There wasn't really that choice. It wasn't just that. I mean, think about how many employees, different personalities, how many changing food trends. There's so many obstacles. But I think that. And I talk a good talk. I'm not always good at this. But how do you keep going? Right. And how do you not just be mad at an obstacle? Because.

[B]

Right. I mean, I could stay at home and just binge Netflix.

[A]

Right? You know, and yes, except for I still have always. Still had to make a living. Maybe I haven't gotten rich enough yet to be able to, like, me walk away or whatever it is that, you know, I mean, there wasn't. But, you know, one of the hardest obstacles was the pandemic. Because at the beginning, no one knew about ppp, you know, or we never knew when we were reopening. I mean, we had some money in the bank, but we were going to run out, you know, And I was like, how do you reopen with no money? And how do you, you know, So I mean, my husband and I really had talks of, like, okay, we're going to lose all. All the restaurants. And at that point, we had. Chouquette was supposed to open the week of the pandemic.

[B]

We were waiting for Chouquette to open in Chelsea for. I mean, I can imagine you were waiting. But we were like, when is it opening? Yes.

[A]

People yelled at us. And I was like, do you think I'm enjoying this? Because, like, I would like to get this restaurant open.

[B]

Very personal restaurant.

[A]

Yes, it is. And I felt really like I was letting people down because we could never get that restaurant open for a long time. But I don't know. I mean, you know, I don't know. You can ask people, like, why don't you just. And there are times I've curled up in a ball. I mean, those three months of shutdown of the restaurants were actually, again, I know it's crazy to keep saying this, but were such a good thing for me, because it is the first time in my entire life that I sat in some silence, and there was nothing to do. There was nowhere to go.

[B]

There was nowhere to go.

[A]

There was not even going out to eat right. There was nothing to do. And my husband and I. And for a while, my younger son, I rented a teeny, tiny. I mean, tiny little cottage in Amagansett, a block from the beach. And there was nobody around us. And, like, you know, but that quiet and silence. And so what did you learn in.

[B]

That quiet and silence?

[A]

I learned that a. I need some quiet and silence, which I never. I just thought, you know, like, you be the Everett bunny and just keep going. I think I learned a lot about myself. The shocking thing was I thought two things. I cannot sit and not have anything to do. I'm gonna go crazy. Like, they're gonna have to put a straitjacket on me and take me away. Like, I was the drive out there, I was actually almost having a total anxiety attack. Cause I was like, I can't. And I know this is terrible. Maybe he won't listen to this. I was like, and I'm gonna get divorced. My son ended up leaving, like, after six weeks. But I was, like, just in this little place with nothing to do. I mean, like, not even going to a movie or out to dinner. Nothing. You know, I said, we're gonna get on each. And neither of the things happen. I think it actually was good for us to spend that much time together, not working, you know, not in a restaurant together. And it was good for me to sit in some silence, and I got to be creative about how I was gonna reopen these restaurants. And even the point of, like, finding the most beautiful lights for the outdoor tables and blankets and how are we gonna heat. And this was before everybody had blankets. You know, we didn't. I've never done this. How do up in winter in an outside, you know, so it gave you.

[B]

Sort of a moment to reflect and also think about how you were gonna pivot for Covid.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You mentioned Aisha and Shuquette, which I know is, like, on fire. And so let's talk about that for a second, because I think one of the things I read is that you don't just back trends.

[A]

You back chefs 100%.

[B]

What made you realize that that's what you should do?

[A]

So she's a really kind of fascinating story. I mean, I have everything. Every restaurant I've ever done has been about the chef. Every single solitary one of them. And hers was a really interesting story because I had a restaurant called Hundred Acres. So that was a failure. Anyone who might ever listen or anything, I've had lots of failures. That was an abject failure. So then we opened up Hundred Acres, which, truthfully, because I told you I'm gonna be really honest in, this was a restaurant I never really loved. It was my own restaurant, but I could never really find because it wasn't open to be that. It morphed into that, but it really wasn't. I didn't think it. It wasn't my favorite, and I didn't think it was that great. I mean, the food was good. I would never open something terrible, but it wasn't like, okay, didn't fulfill my.

[B]

Not everything's a slam door, right?

[A]

It didn't fulfill my soul at all. About nine years into it, I don't know how many years into it, I got a call from Missy Robbins, and she said that she had. She had had someone who worked for her. She thought she was really great. She would be really great for us, and we should talk to her. So we met with her, we talked to her. We said, all we have is 100 acres, and you could come into this. Forget how many years it was at this point, restaurant 9 years old, and be the chef. I mean, it was a pretty unglamorous job. The kitchen was in the basement. Like, it was this. And somehow we just clicked, and she took the job and she cooked 100 acres food, which had no real. I don't even know what it was.

[B]

Was it American?

[A]

It was like, American, Italian. I don't know, Mediterranean, like. Yeah, it was not. For a while, it was a Southern restaurant. But little by little, she started putting in these Middle Eastern dishes on the menu, and they were magic. And I was like, what's going on here, Aisha? What are these? Cause she's an Italian chef. She had worked for Misty Robbins and Lydia Bastianish, and she was an Italian all the way chef.

[B]

But she's Middle Eastern herself.

[A]

No.

[B]

What? She's not?

[A]

No. She went with her dad and her grandmother, I think, to Atlantic Avenue, like, every Saturday, and has always had a passion for it.

[B]

And she has Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn.

[A]

In Brooklyn. Sorry. And she has cooked in Israel, and she's cooked in Morocco, and she's. I mean, it was a passion, but never was supposed to be the kind of chef. It was just a. It was just like, not a hobby, but, like a passion. But she was always gonna be an Italian chef. It was never gonna be something else. But she was making these dishes and magic. And I said, I can't remember if it was her idea or my idea. Maybe hers, probably. We sat there and said it was close. Like, I don't know, it was maybe November. Like, why don't we do a night in Morocco at this restaurant that made no sense on New Year's Eve and do only this crazy night where there was belly dancers and a feast. And she did something like 35 dishes per table, and we had, like, tables of 10. And I mean, the whole thing, we decorated. I mean, it was a night in Morocco craziness. And it was incredible. I don't know how we sold it out. I don't know why anyone came. And her food was unbelievable. And I think both of us just looked at each other and went. I was like, we gotta shut this thing down. You know, I mean, first we were gonna just morph it into a Middle Eastern restaurant. And honestly, I think part of it was some publicist we had who I really trusted, and they were like, shut it down.

[B]

So you shut it down and reopened it as a new restaurant?

[A]

Yes. So here's the crazy part of this story, and I want to say this because it's clear. I wasn't like, this is going to work. This is going to be amazing. This is a home run. Na, na na. I really didn't know if it was going to work. And I thought, okay, if we lose the restaurant that I don't really love, it's not the end of the world. I don't want to lose a restaurant. But it wasn't like, we're going to throw this all out and this is going to be. I really didn't know if it was going to work at all. And we did some, like, tiling of the restaurant overnight, and we only closed for, I think, three days and reopened it as Shuka.

[B]

And it's been a raging success.

[A]

Yes. But it looked completely different. We did it on a wing and a prayer. I think I put things on the credit card like it was, you know, but there was between us, there was a vision between her and I. There was this great vision of what we wanted to be. But really, I have to be clear, I didn't know that it was gonna work. The Middle Eastern was not quite as mainstream as it is now, you know, So I didn't know the whole thing. And the first maybe three or four days, we opened crickets. And worse was people came in and they were like, really angry. Where's hundred acres? We really hate you. We don't like this. But something happened really quickly, I mean, quick, where it caught on.

[B]

And Shoe Cat was like a vision you guys shared. And so that was from scratch. Cause that's even more of a success, right?

[A]

Well, Shoe Cat was the best way of doing something because it was a completely shared vision from the start. I actually now am at the point in my life that you have to have a vision. That much I do think.

[B]

So. One key lesson is have a vision before you start.

[A]

Right? Like, be sure of what your vision is and your message. And I know that sounds lofty or whatever.

[B]

Well, you have a clear vision and you depend on a partner, right?

[A]

I have other partners. I mean, there's five partners in the Bowery Group. And I tell everybody this, like, I love my partners. I count on my partners. And it's. I've had been told sometimes, like, why do you have so many partners? You're not gonna. You could make so much more money. And I'm like, oh, give up the money for, you know, for having all that support and going through a pandemic with partners.

[B]

Well, it's almost like community's been kind of at your core, even for yourself. When I think about it, it is the way you're describing it. Some people wanna be the leader of the bus. I've always just wanted to be on the bus with other people. You know, there's a difference.

[A]

I think I'm the worst combination because I want to be the leader and on the bus at the same time. But, yes, I love partnerships. I love community. I love the community of restaurants. Like, I'm not a lone wolf in any way.

[B]

So let me ask you a couple of other things. One of the things that's interesting to me is you work with your husband, and I now work with my husband. But I don't know that I could have seen that. And so what's that like? Is that a challenge to work with a partner who's also somebody you live with?

[A]

That's a short answer on that. Yes. When we first opened Five Points, I mean, we have learned how to work together, but it's really hard in the restaurant business. I don't know about other businesses, but we're both very strong in our opinions. We're on either sides of the fence. So, you know, I always say this. Our first year, we fought every night. This is the fight we had every night was if we run behind on the food, he would say, why'd you seat the room like that? And I would say, why can't you get the goddamn food out? You know? And we would have this fight every night. So it is. I'm not saying all spouses have this, but it's been an incredibly long learning.

[B]

It's also magical, right?

[A]

It is magical. I do want to say that. Yes. And it also is. I don't think we could have done what we did if one of us worked 9 to 5. Like, the fact that we were both in it together is amazing. And made it work and made our marriage work. And, you know, so I don't want to say just the not good stuff, because, yeah, it was. It really was.

[B]

Because you're doing it.

[A]

You were doing it. We're still doing it. And that has been incredible. But it's not an easy road, you know, especially if you're. Neither one of us is a follower.

[B]

I think that's part of your magic. I'm going to ask you just a couple of other things about what you're seeing in the business, because I think one of the other things is you are very powerful women in the restaurant business.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

In a business that's not dominated by women. Right. And you see things. And I curious because we've come out of COVID and restaurants are still kind of challenge. Right. A lot of restaurants, you go. You think, like, it's really expensive or they haven't survived. Like, what are you seeing in terms of the challenges facing the industry?

[A]

A couple of things.

[B]

Super.

[A]

Definitely is financial. You know, it's really challenging because prices keep going up. Like, up. I mean, not at a small level, at giant levels. So, you know, there's always this thing about the price of eggs. Right. But the price of eggs is the price of everything for us. And we cannot just raise our prices in conjunction with how much the prices are being raised to us, you know, and every day it's something. So it's like, this doesn't sort of end. So it's a constant game of how do we not outprice ourselves? Which I think a lot of restaurants, unfortunately, are doing. And people get really mad.

[B]

I see it. I see some restaurants. You go in and you feel like you're being gouged. There's a sense that, like, yeah, we all understand that things are tougher, but in your restaurants, I mean, you don't get that feeling. You don't feel like somebody's taking you for a ride. And I Think that must be a balance.

[A]

Okay, so it's funny because I'm gonna go back to where we started. So I don't know. I feel a bit like. I don't know, which is a weird thing to feel at this point in my life. Like, is it. You know, we have talked as a group. There's other projects we really do want to do. There's other passion projects we want to do. There's restaurants we want to do. I mean, right now I'm trying to open up my brain. Is there something that for me, not that I won't do more restaurants, but is there also something else? I do have other things that I love. I don't know what they are, and luckily I have a job and I'm not in that position. But what do I want for the next. Whatever. I mean, it's hard to sit here and tell you I don't know, but I don't know.

[B]

This could be another looking up at the sky moment and so on.

[A]

It could be.

[B]

Okay, let's do five rapid questions.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Karaoke song or walk on music. What would you pick?

[A]

Okay, so neither, because I am literally the worst singer on the planet Earth, and I have never in my entire life I've gone to karaoke and listened to other people and had fun. You cannot get me to. I don't even sing happy birthday.

[B]

Walk on song, like the song you'd want to be playing as you walked on again in a ward.

[A]

I know this is going to sound. It's not the most energetic song, but, like, something from, like, Paul Simon probably.

[B]

Okay. I once picked Girl on Fire because I was always on fire. But, you know, I'm going to lend that to you.

[A]

Right? Thank you. I'll take that one.

[B]

What's the food you bring to a potluck?

[A]

So always, like, smoked fish and bagels from Russ and Daughters.

[B]

Smoked fish and bagels from Russ and Daughters. Okay. This is a good one for you. An alternative career path that you would.

[A]

Consider now, you know, I love fashion. The fashion world is a little much for me, you know, So I do consider maybe something like that. But I've had a passion to open up a really good small grocery store.

[B]

Okay. What are you reading, listening to, or watching? You can just pick.

[A]

Well, I'm re reading Eckhart Tolle, New Earth. What am I watching? Well, I'm trying to watch more movies because I, for some reason, was finding myself watching, like, series and no movie. And I watched the order.

[B]

Oh, is it good?

[A]

Yes, very.

[B]

Okay, we're Gonna come back. What's an unexpected thing that colleagues wouldn't know about you that we should know about you?

[A]

I have a horrible stage fright.

[B]

What? Would not have expected that from you?

[A]

And people have asked me to get on a stage by myself and talk. I'm like, no, I love this, what we're doing, but that's different. Thank you, Vicki.

[B]

This was as great as I expected. Look, you've had quite a journey. I can't imagine what's coming next, but I'm kind of excited about that. As we close out the episode, what's the one piece of advice you wanna leave for people? I mean, I know we both have kids, and I think. And they're always trying to figure out, to your point, what their purpose is or what impact they can have. What's the advice you would give them because they feel a little lost.

[A]

They do. And I have kids. But I think for me, the advice I try to give everybody, I always say, just keep on trying things. Keep going. Don't just give up. Don't just sit there. Keep trying and keep doing things. But go for things that you feel passionate about. I really feel strongly that if you're passionate about it, if you love it, it will probably work. I mean, I can't say ballerina, but I had a friend who was passionate about dirt biking, like, obsessed with it, and was a lawyer, and he stayed a lawyer. But I kept thinking, if that passion is so crazy about dirt biking, you will figure it out.

[B]

This seems like an ageless piece of advice.

[A]

It's ageless.

[B]

Okay, just making sure. Thank you. Thank you so much, Vicki. It's been amazing to have you on the show. I can't thank you enough for coming.

[A]

Well, listen, I'm so flattered, honored, and thank you. I really, really loved being here, and I don't know, I think you've got it.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

The Messy Parts podcast is hosted and.

[B]

Created by Mariam Banakaram. Produced by Andrew Lerner and Maral Yousefi.

[A]

With help from Deborah Goetz and Natasha.

[B]

Lerner, this podcast is recorded at Newspaper.

[A]

Stan Studios and Rockefeller Center.

[B]

Audio engineering and editing by Joseph Hazen.