← The Michael Knowles Show
The Michael Knowles Show
Friendly Fire: Iran War Debate, 2028 Presidential Buzz & Oscars Preview
01:10:40
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- [00:00]
Michael Knowles
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Ben Shapiro
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Michael Knowles
get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply.
- [00:16]
Ben Shapiro
This episode is brought to you by White Claw Surge. Nice choice hitting up this podcast. No surprises. You're all about diving into tastes everyone in the room can enjoy. Just like White Claw Surge. It's for celebrating those moments when connections have been made and the night's just be bold. Flavors and 8% alcohol by volume. Unleash the night. Unleash White Claw Surge. Please drink responsibly. Hard Seltzer with flavors, 8% alcohol by volume. White Claw Seltzer Works, Chicago, Illinois. Why are you asking me hot wifing?
- [00:53]
Drew
I've been hot wifing for 50 years, man.
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Ben Shapiro
No, I don't.
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Michael Knowles
I don't think you want to. I don't know if you want that clip. Oh, maybe it means something else. So I found out. It was in the New York Post and there was a survey that 71% of kinky couples. So that's a subset, obviously, of couples. 71% say that it helped their marriage to pimp out their wife to other guys.
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Drew
Okay, that's something different than I've been doing.
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Ben Shapiro
Yeah, that is it.
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Drew
What are the other 30% of kinky couples doing?
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Michael Knowles
You know, the other 30% are very
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Drew
wholesome, actually a little kinky. If I could.
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Ben Shapiro
And Knowles. I'm just wondering, like, why are we doing the Piers Morgan show here? Like, why is that a thing that we're doing?
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Michael Knowles
Hold on. I want to know. What's the new feud gonna be this week? Who else are we gonna hit? I wanna start a feud with Rachel Maddow because it would be kind of like right in the mirror, you know?
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Ben Shapiro
Yeah. I mean, I feel like the feud with Piers is actually the stupidest one. That's the dumbest one. I mean, the Piers one. I don't even understand why he's mad. I said that his show is the Jerry Springer apology.
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Drew
Did I miss that?
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Michael Knowles
I'm a click whore.
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Ben Shapiro
Well, that was. No, that was after. So I started by saying that he was the Jerry Springer of politics, which he is. And then he admitt he, like tweeted out a picture of himself with Jerry Springer and talked about Jerry Springer was great, but he was super pissed about. Here's the thing that clears that Piers does, because he is indeed a click whore. In fact, he, at this point, Runs an entire click whore house. He is the madam of the click whore house. He's the. By the way, the best little click whore house in Britain. The best little click whore house in Britain. I know you do, Michael. Listen, you're free to go wherever you want, by the way. I feel like that's a good full scale demonstration of my point, which is me saying that he's a click whore. Doesn't mean that I'm saying anybody should not go on his show or that he's being canceled in some way. You're going on his show and it's fine with me. You want to. You want to waste your life doing that? I mean, I suppose that you can. We all make our decisions, but he got. He got fake mad about that.
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Drew
Hey, guys, guys. I have to stop you for a minute. Somebody is talking in my ear and I can't. Drew, that's not. He's actually less interesting than you are, which is like kind of a shock to my system.
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Michael Knowles
No, Drew, that's just. I know when those voices crop up
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Drew
over the years, he keeps telling me. Kills. Kill.
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Michael Knowles
Hey, all right. Should we actually get into the show? So I think we should get into the show. This is friendly fire. I'm glad it's finally live. I hate it when it's pre taped because when you do the pre tape of the show, everybody's all tired. Everybody want you do the advertisements later. I want to do the advertisements right now. I want you to go to dailywire.com shop. I want you to get all that sweet merch. We are spring cleaning over here at Daily Wire. You can save up to 50% for a limited time. Conservative gear that doesn't bend the knee, that loves to tell the truth, that loves America. Including Ben's latest book. It's a New York Times bestseller. Lions and scavengers. Whatever. Signed copies. Okay, that's fine. More importantly though, the yes or no game. And you can get the dating and relationships expansion pack. Matt is doing whatever. He's got the leftist ears. Dog bowl. That's kind of cute. Whatever. But you can also get all of my great stuff. The candles and the whole Michael Knowles collection. We have some sweaters. And then also Drew, who is an Edgar award winner and nominee, has his new book A Woman Underground from his Cameron Winter mystery wonders.
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Drew
It's after that the dark they should be putting up.
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Michael Knowles
Why did they didn't update your copy? But after that the dark. That's right. I didn't think.
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Drew
I'm still in the Edgar. I am still An Edgar nominee. I have another month until I actually lose, but I'm.
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Michael Knowles
Well, you can get 50% off of all of it, all of their stuff, and more importantly, my stuff, the candles. And plenty of leftist ears. Tumblers go to dailywire.com shop right now. Okay, I want to get into. Enough about the hot, white, tawdry, terrible.
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Ben Shapiro
Tawdry, terrible dealings in podcastian.
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Michael Knowles
Yes. Yeah. Enough about all this scintillating the whorehouses we were talking about. Whatever. I want to get into the Iran war and I want to get into the horse race, not just for 2026, but for 2028. And for that,
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Drew
I was still in the hot wives. I'm sorry.
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Michael Knowles
We have a new member of the Daily Wire who's come on here who's going to run our editorial page, and that is Ben Domenech running. Oh, sorry.
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Drew
He's a good guy.
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Michael Knowles
Yeah. Ben. Do we have Ben?
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Ben Domenech
Yeah, I hope so.
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Michael Knowles
Mr. Dominic, how are you, sir?
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Drew
Hey, Ben.
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Ben Domenech
Hey. I'm doing great and happy to be on the team. And it's going to be interesting. I will say that I was listening to your prior segment, and I didn't anticipate having hot wives be the first thing that we were going to be discussing right off the bat. I would just say anybody who gives you that advice is giving you bad marital advice and wants to steal your wife.
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Michael Knowles
It's probably hot for your wife.
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Ben Domenech
Yeah.
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Michael Knowles
If I had to guess, that's true. Speaking of hot conflicts, Ben, I've gone back and forth. I've vacillated here, Ben Domenech and Ben Shapiro. I've vacillated on the Iran war thing. My basic take on it is, had I been on the nsc, just knowing what I know, obviously I'm not privy to classified information. Had I been on the nsc, I would have argued against striking Iran, but not because of pacifism, not because of isolationism. I don't think those are serious views. I just think that the risks here are very, very high. I think if the Strait of Hormuz is closed for too long, we're gonna have a global recession. I think that things can spiral out of control, and Iran is a real country, unlike some of the other places we operate in. So I trust Trump. He's the best foreign policy president of my lifetime. He asked for five weeks. I'm willing to give him five weeks. I'll freak out on week six. But things are very, very dicey. Oil already hit $115 a barrel. what point do we start saying maybe this might not be great. Mr. Dominic.
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Ben Domenech
Well, I think that there are a lot of people who are saying that privately in Republican circles right now already, particularly those who want to run on domestic issues. And we're kind of feeling like there were some silver linings in the economy, that people were starting to see the benefits of the tax policies that they passed, that they were going to have, you know, a better experience when it came to their tax bill this year, and that they hoped that they would be able to prevent the kind of historical trend that we have normally seen in these midterm elections. Personally, I think that was a lost cause to begin with. I don't think that they really have any hope of holding on to the House, but I do think that a lot of them are now pointing to this decision as something that's making them even more nervous, particularly because, as you know, voters don't get moved by foreign policy the way that, you know, the president necessarily is in this second term where he's paying so much attention to resolving all conflicts, you know, ending all family business all around the world. And I think that there's inherent risk with that, that domestically Republicans are nervous about
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Michael Knowles
Ben Shapiro. You're like, you're the most pro.
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Ben Shapiro
I'm extremely pro. What he's doing. Yeah, well, what Trump is doing is the bravest foreign policy decision in my lifetime. If the Iranian regime falls, it's the biggest thing to happen in geopolitics since the fall of the Soviet Union. And so I think that what people ought to set up beforehand is sort of their set of what, what would make them think that the war was a success and at what cost. I think that once we have those sort of presets in the system, it's easy to have a conversation about whether we think that we're going to achieve those things or not. So what the administration has set as the goal are ending the ballistic missile threat from Iran, ending the nuclear threat from Iran, and destroying the Iranian navy. The Iranian economy is already nothing to speak of. It basically does not exist at this point. And if you're judging by sort of what we've accomplished already, basically all three of those things are very nearly accomplished. The ballistic missile threat has been basically taken down to almost zero. The threat of the Iranian nuclear program has been set back probably decades at this point. I don't think that either the United States or the Israelis are going to finish this up before that threat is completely vitiated. And if you're talking about the Iranian navy, it doesn't exist. It's at the bottom of the Strait of Hormuz. So then the question becomes, is the real goal here regime change? And then the question is sort of like, what's the timeline? And so if the war ends and the regime is still in place, but so weak that basically one tap by the Iranian population, and six months later, it's a different regime. Not only was this a successful war in the moment, it is the most successful military decision of the modern era. If it turns out that the Iranian regime kind of holds on, kind of is able to rebuild, still has some level of control over the Straits of Hormuz, then obviously that's a problem, which is why I don't think Trump is going to do that. I think that the next move by the Trump administration will be to secure all the areas around the Strait of Hormuz, make sure that the Strait of Hormuz can't be closed. It is pretty certain, in my view, that sometime in the next week, you will start seeing the United States Navy moving along with oil tankers through the Straits of Hormuz to protect those oil tankers. We did this in the late 80s, and we can do it again. And if that is what has happened here, the tremendous weakening of the Iranian regime, the destruction of their forward capacity, and the possibility that they're going to shatter, then it is an unbelievably successful decision. And I have to say, the impatience of the American people, and I won't say the American people, because I don't think the American people are actually impatient. The impatience of some people in the commentariat is insane. I mean, legitimately insane. We are two weeks into this thing, and we have suffered, yes, casualties, but those casualties are obviously, by historical standards, very small compared to other conflicts. You're talking double digits. And when I say double digits, I mean, like, very low double digits. I believe the total number of deaths to this point in time is 13. In this conflict, every one of those people is absolutely incredibly valuable to us. But if you're going to compare foreign policy adventurism to two past sort of conflicts that doesn't even chart, and if you're talking about the length and duration, I have cottage cheese in my fridge that is older than this war. And so this idea that this is like an endless war, Joe Rogan was like, every war is an endless war. Well, no, not every war is an endless war. And so I think everybody should sort of put out there what they think the biggest risks are and how likely those risks are to occur and what the biggest benefits are and how likely those benefits are.
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Drew
I can tell you what I think the big risk is. And I think, first of all, I agree with you, Knowles, that I trust Trump on this. Not so much because he's an expert of foreign policy, but because he hates war. He doesn't want there to be wars. And so that's the way I want people to feel when they, you know, if we could have presidents who didn't want to be presidents, that's the guy I'd vote for. But we can't have that. But we can have wars waged by people who don't want to be in war. And that's what Trump is like. And I trust him. That we had to go in. I think Witkoff's testimony basically, that. That they were actually building a nuclear weapon, that they were that close, is just very convincing to me. The Strait of Hormuz, I mean, you can mine the Strait of Hormuz with a rowboat, you know, so we're never going to break the Iranian navy to the point where they can't drop a mine into the strait. But I think the timeline is this. I think the timeline is whether or not we are going to lose the government entirely to the left. The left in this country is a major, major danger. This is the place. I think our interests right now and Israel's interests in the Venn diagram are very close together. But there comes a point when Israel's tactical interests, which I think would be getting rid of this regime entirely, and I would love to see that. I think that's a great thing. And our interest, which is maintaining some kind of chance for us to keep the presidency away from people who butcher children sexually, who think that George Floyd is an angel instead of a thug, who hate this country and are willing to open up its borders to all our enemies. I think at some point, the politics of this, unfortunately, gets in the way of the mission, but I don't think that point is anywhere reached. And this is where Ben is absolutely right. This whole thing about the forever war that's been last going on for 20 minutes is absurd. I mean, it's just absurd. This has been a very, very successful venture. They're doing a great job. They've completely obliterated their military force. And I just think that, like, we have to hang on and let Trump be the. We're letting him be the judge of when to go in. We've got to let him be the judge of when to go out, because I do not think he wants a war that Goes on for eight months. But on the point going to happen,
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Michael Knowles
on the point of domestic political issues,
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Ben Domenech
there's, there's a risk here that I think if I can interject and this is friendly fire, so, and it's my first time, so I don't know if I'm being rude by doing so.
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Drew
We just be.
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Ben Domenech
I actually think the biggest risk here is that that commentariat gets listened to by the president who does have people on his team who are going to echo their thoughts. That's basically what's happening right now. They're trying to work the refs, they're working from outside against this argument. And look, the policy of the United States of America toward the nation of Iran has been pretty set for a pretty long time. It was Barack Obama who broke it in the approach that he used. That was just the maddest, the most crazy thing in the world. There's still, the fact that there's still people around who defend it, I mean, is just boggles my mind. Especially the pod save bros. Pod save Iran. The thing that I think is a risk here is that if that commentariat prevails, the opportunity here is to turn to China as something like an interlocutor with the regime to basically say, hey, you know, we don't want to see these missiles flying around the, you know, the Gulf states, they don't want to see these things fly around the Emirates, don't. They don't want to have to deal with this type of stuff in the future. You know, we have a vested interest because of our relationship with Iran. Let us do some kind of a deal or an arrangement that allows that type of scenario that Mr. Shapiro, Ben, I can say, Ben is making, making note of, which would allow that regime to basically hold on to power and would also frankly strengthen China's role in the area. That's the biggest thing that I'm concerned about. If those interlocutors get their way and they will not like the long term ramifications of that.
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Ben Shapiro
You know, don't forget something else here, you know, and that is that Drew, you drew one timeline which is we got to end this thing before it starts affecting the presidential election. Obviously I agree and the American people agree with that. All the polls show that if this is a short war, Americans are fine with it. If it's a midterm war, they're pretty split. And if it's a very long war, they're against. I mean, join the club. Who's in favor? Favor of a long war. You know, not, not, not a ton of people. But the. There is one other timeline, and that is President Trump laid this one out, and he is totally right about this. In three years, he will not be the president anymore. And when he is not the president, whether the person who follows him is a Republican or Democrat, that person is not going to have anything like the balls that he is currently demonstrating with regard to going after Iran. And so you don't want to be in a position in three years where Iran is re ascendant, where you have a coward in the presidency in the form of a Democrat or even somebody from the Horseshoe, Right? And that person is then making overtures to the Iranian government. You have to go do this again or you don't do it at all. And now Iran is sort of back in the driver's seat. And so his perspective on this, which I think is 100% right. And I think, honestly, it's why it's kind of politically heroic. It's not political heroism if you do the popular thing, it's politically heroic. If you do the thing that you actually don't think has to do with your poll numbers, you're just doing the thing that has to be done. What the president is doing right now is doing the thing that has to be done. Because again, I think all four of us, regardless of where we are on the current conflict, agree, if the Iranian regime were to fall, it would be a moment of such great geopolitical. It would be. It would be legitimately unbelievable, not just, not just for the region, but for the world. Because you're talking about the linking factor between, for example, China and Russia. You're talking about the lead progenitor of terrorism on planet Earth. If that regime were to fall because President Trump was the only one with the stones to actually just punch them in the face repeatedly until they gave up. If that were to happen, or if this were to be, again, the predicate to some sort of uprising in Iran, where you get something other than what is, and that something is just anything other than a even harder line, resurgence Iranian regime, then I don't know how you can count this as anything other than an act of tremendous political bravery by the president. And so the political consideration for me is twofold. One is sort of like who gets elected? And that obviously is very important. The other is on a downside, risk mitigation basis, I'm very worried that a Democrat gets elected in 2028. Do I want an Iran run by the ayatollahs with more ballistic missiles, more nuclear Capacity and a bigger Navy with a Democratic president, or would I like for the President of the United States to stomp on around like a bug while he has a chance?
- [16:40]
Michael Knowles
The issue is if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. You know, I think we all agree on the ifs here. But, you know, to get back to Drew's point on domestic politics, the New York Times was breathless. They were overjoyed to report that this is the least popular war at launch that we've ever had in American history.
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Drew
Yeah, but it's got the populars. It's going along.
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Michael Knowles
You're exactly right. But you know, World War II starts at 97%. Libya, even Libya was higher than this one. The Iraq war and the Afghanistan war were higher than this one. So you have a lot of people who had a lot of trepidation about this war. The domestic issue is going to get worse if the strait remains closed for a long time. If gas prices go up, that's going to cause food prices to go up even further. You already have people feeling that the economy is precarious. This with all of the problems in the midterm elections. And so I totally agree. And this is where I think the isolationists or the pacifists are just not making anything resembling a serious argument here. But this is where people are getting a little bit too rosy. If we can swap out the Iranian regime, then wonderful. You know, that has been part of the US grand strategy since 1953, all right, and it's a great fulfillment. And Trump clearly has the stones to do it.
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Ben Domenech
Now.
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Michael Knowles
Maybe it implies the fact that he's willing to go in in a way that's so unpopular, that could really screw up the midterms. Maybe that implies that he's already kind of written off the midterms. You know, the Republicans have a one vote majority in the House, probably. You know, odds are we're going to lose it anyway. So why not do some legendary stuff, go down in the history books in the meantime?
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Christian Toto
That's all great.
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Drew
I'm not convinced of that. I'm actually not convinced that we're going to lose the midterms. I think that it's a great chance. I'm not going to say, I'm not going to say we're going to win it, but I think there's still a chance. It's an open question. And look, I think you have to balance the enthusiasm. We all would love to see this regime fall. It is nonsense. But there's this thing, there's this pansy factor In America. Now, the technical term for it, the pansy factor, where like people just go, become hysterical over nothing and it's stoked by the press. I mean, the last time I, I don't drive much because I don't have to, but I, the last time I tanked up my car about a week and a half ago, gas was 280A gallon, which is nothing now. It's all the way up to where it was three years ago when I don't remember everybody getting hysterical about it, you know, so this is kind of this engineered hysteria.
- [19:00]
Ben Shapiro
I agree with this. I mean, if we look at the, look at, look at the price of Brent oil right now. Yeah, the Iranians were saying it was going to 150 or 200 a barrel. It went up to 115. You mentioned Michael. And then it went back down again. It's been hovering around 100 ever since. Actually, on the week it's slightly down from where it was.
- [19:15]
Drew
But there is a danger here. There is a danger of temptation, I think because of the long wars that the Bush administration fought and fought badly and because of our entrenchment in those places and the sense that we didn't get anything out of it in the long run, you know, people are not going to want to see our guys go marching in there, even if that's the only way we can overturn the regime. There's always a question of whether you can overturn a regime with air power. I mean, it's not the normal thing, you know, I mean, unless you're going to drop an atom bomb on them, it's very hard to over return a regime. Now look, the Israelis are in there and they may go in and you know, we've heard about the Kurds going in and all of that stuff. So it could happen. But I think a major engagement where we get tangled up in there, it's more of my government than I want to give away to the left. You know, I'd love to see it happen, but that's my point.
- [20:03]
Ben Shapiro
I don't think anybody's talking about that, including the President, which is why again, a Trump war is different than a Bush war. But you know, Dominic had a great piece on this that he early on where he basically said, you know, everybody wants to look at the poll numbers, like Michael was looking at the poll numbers. And instead of me just quoting Dominic, I'm actually ask him to explicate what he was saying because I think that it is the right point, which is it turns out Americans just don't like losing mostly.
- [20:25]
Ben Domenech
Yeah, yeah, I think. And the. And thank you for saying that. I think that this is a situation where one of the lessons I think people haven't learned, particularly politicians, is that this long drawn out case for war that we have seen made in the past is just not something that the American people actually want or necessarily need anymore. I actually think that they assess things entirely based on success. The Maduro raid is a perfect example of this in the sense that it was. There was tons of skepticism about what we were doing in Venezuela in various poll questions leading up to that decision. And then after it happened, everybody basically said, oh, yeah, I was always in favor of that. And the reverse happens when you look back at the Iraq war, where there's tons of people who pretend that they were opposed to it. So I think that part of the thing that's going on here, though, is that we are dealing with the President as, as Andrew said, that has different priorities. And I think that the number one thing that he assesses this on, I believe, is the loss of American life. The loss of American life is not something that he wants to see. He does. He has this very visceral attitude towards risking American life. And there have even been stories, not ones that I've been able to run down, though some other journalists have claimed that they have, that he kept going back to the Pentagon when it came to reworking that Maduro raid in order to get the number lower and lower and lower in terms of the risk to American lives because he didn't want to lose anybody. And so I think that when it comes to this war, people who are concerned about American troops having to go in on the ground, I think the President will be incredibly hesitant to do that. He is trying to do something with air power that isn't traditionally achieved. And we will need additional work by the Israelis, I think, in order to achieve it in a real sustained way. But that fact gives me a lot of optimism about this moment. And with this president, please, when I am probably, you know, historically the most war skeptical of, of, you know, many of the people who are part of Daily Wire and that is, you know, born again out of, I believe, sort of a naivete that we had in the past. I don't think the President has that naivete. I think he wants to get this done. He wants to get it settled. And he does not want it to be the kind of thing that he is asked about after his presidency. Do you wish you had handled this differently?
- [22:37]
Ben Shapiro
Well, we'll get to more on this in one second. First, if you appreciate our live news coverage, head on over to dailywire.com/subscribe. Become a member today because then we'll be your best friends. Let's be real about this, okay? Like we, you, you guys, you're our acquaintances. We like you, that's fine. But you can't be best friends with us. And Knowles is a really, really strong friend. I'm less so, as it turns out. But Michael Knowles actually is very into the friendship. And you can be Michael's best friend. Drew is a pretty good friend. I think Dominic's a pretty good friend. You can be best friends with all of these people and more of our hosts, including Matt Walsh, who actually is shockingly friendly in person. He would not want me to, to say that. But you also get breaking news, investigative reporting, ad free, uncensored daily shows. All of that exists because of our members. If you want all of our coverage, and we've had lots of live coverage and really blanket round the clock coverage on what's going on. If you want that to continue, you need to join us. Head on over to DailyWire.com subscribe Become a Member right now. Michael, you want to jump back in there?
- [23:35]
Michael Knowles
I don't. Well, okay.
- [23:36]
Ben Shapiro
Have we figured out Iran?
- [23:38]
Michael Knowles
If we figured out Iran, then I do want to move on to a topic that actually, I guess it pertains to Iran or some foreign policy disputes around it, which is the horse race for 2028. You know, we don't know what's going to happen with the midterms. There's the kind of fringe view that Trump has just written it off and he's just going to do gangster legendary stuff. And, you know, then Democrats will get subpoena power, then he'll get impeached, and then who knows what? Maybe he gets convicted, then maybe J.D. vance becomes the president, just automatically. He's probably the insurance policy on that happening. Okay, whatever. As it stands right now, the president has basically endorsed J.D. vance and Marco Rubio as a ticket in 2028. Rubio has basically endorsed Vance as the top of the ticket in 2028. It all looks good until it doesn't. And so there are a lot of people who I think are trying to stoke some division in the Trump administration. Obviously, we know Rubio wants to be president. He ran for it the first time that Trump was running in 2016. So there's this question, will Rubio turn on JD run for the office? Will Trump turn on JD and endorse Rubio? There have been some Rumors about donor conversations or whatever? Will there be an outsider? Will someone from the Senate or from a governor's house? Will they come in and be 2020, or is this all idle, stupid speculation two years out that means absolutely nothing?
- [24:59]
Drew
Well, yes, of course it's that. I think that that is absolutely the case. But look, I think we have to talk about this. And it almost cuts me off every time I say this because he's so ashamed of himself. We have to talk about Tucker Carlson, this guy.
- [25:11]
Michael Knowles
Why do we have to talk about.
- [25:13]
Drew
Why do we have. Because he's a demon infested Nazi, and I think Dance attaches himself to him. He's going to drag him underwater like an anchor tied to his leg. And I think that, you know, this is the thing. I've been yelling at both you guys off camera. I want to yell at you on camera. I mean, first of all, Knowles, it's time for. You're a Catholic. It's time for you to fight the demons. When people are invested with demons, whether they're Candace Owens or Tucker Carlson, they're the bad guys. I mean, they're not right wingers anymore. They're not our friends. And it's time to say they're bad guys. And Shapiro, if I could strangle you and keep you alive because I love you, I don't want to kill you, but if I could just strangle you a little bit, I would, because we can't spend our time yelling at clowns
- [25:52]
Ben Shapiro
like, oh, that's unfair. That's unfair. First of all, I absolutely can't. I know.
- [25:59]
Michael Knowles
I'm glad to hear that.
- [26:00]
Ben Shapiro
I mean, okay, so first of all, just. Just to be clear.
- [26:02]
Michael Knowles
Oh, wait, can I respond? He brought up the demon thing and whatever. I just want to make my point
- [26:06]
Drew
on this exorcist on your show.
- [26:07]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, hold on.
- [26:08]
Drew
Put them to use.
- [26:09]
Ben Shapiro
I'd like to.
- [26:10]
Michael Knowles
I'd like to make a point in defense of not engaging in the podcaster wars. And my defense is this one. I've been very clear about what I think about all of these issues, whether we're talking about Iran, whether we're talking about Erica Kirk, whether we're talking about anything in between. I've been very clear about what my point of view is, and I've said that people are wrong, specifically when I think that they've been wrong. However, I think it is helpful, one, to engage with as much charity as one can possibly engage in in all of these things. And two, I think that the podcaster wars are deeply counterproductive I think even if you want to take friendship and personal affection, all that out of it, it seems to me that if the objective of the podcaster wars is to, you know, talk about how evil and terrible everybody is, the only meaningful objective to that, other than stating your own position, which everyone has clearly done, is to try to reduce their reach or get people to stop listening to them or get them to be less influential. None of that has worked. Everyone that has been named, and many who have not been named, are more influential than ever, more popular than ever. And so it seems to me that the better strategy is to focus on the real politics rather than what I think is the vice of new media. Michael, I've been here for 15 minutes already.
- [27:22]
Ben Domenech
You're knocking my hobbies.
- [27:25]
Michael Knowles
Look, I know we all do it. It's a temptation for me.
- [27:29]
Drew
This is only half true, though.
- [27:30]
Ben Domenech
This is not. This is. There's a serious aspect of this, and then there's one that is actually very fun. And I, And I resent the idea that making fun of Piers Morgan is something that is out of bounds because it's just too much fun to do. But here's the thing. What you are getting at is something that I think is important, which is that we shouldn't allow these wars, which I believe are. Are fun to fight and good to fight, arguments that are worth having and can, if only by the way, to show that the other side of it often does not have any willingness to argue or debate or actually deal with any of the ramifications of the things that they're saying, which tells you enough. But I also think that we have to make sure that there's some balance there. You can't. Should only be about the podcast wars, because that's like being. That's like only watching Bravo for the Real Housewife reunions. Like, it's just not. It is not the best use of your time or good for your mental health, even if you can talk about it for weeks on end. And so that's the thing that I think we need to just have some perspective on it. But the podcast wars actually are representative on some point, at some point, of different sides within these arguments that are taking place. I just think that they are. Are they?
- [28:38]
Michael Knowles
That's my question. Are they really the enemies of the
- [28:42]
Ben Domenech
right to be much bigger deals?
- [28:46]
Drew
But they are. When you're going after evil people, when you start to go after people who don't go after evil people, then you have to go after the people who don't go after the people who don't go after the evil people. Then you've got a cancerous situation. And I think it's really damaging.
- [28:57]
Ben Shapiro
I mean, so I agree, I agree with that. But I think that there's a difference between doing that and doing an actual defense of the people who are, who are evil, which is a thing that has happened. And attacking people who defend those who are evil is a thing that I think is worthwhile. And as far as sort of the matrix that you're setting up here, Michael, frankly, I think It's a catch 22. Because the basic idea that you've set up is that if you say nothing about them, that's because they're very powerful, they're not going away. And also if you say something about them, it's because they're very powerful and they're not going away.
- [29:22]
Michael Knowles
No, I don't think it's because they're powerful. I also think that's different. Just to clarify my point here, I think that the podcaster wars are not a real political phenomenon. Basically, even just looking at the polling, basically all the movement conservative activist based types of still support Trump, basically support Vance and Rubio, basically support the same policies. They're a little divided on Iran. And I think that the podcast wars are a meta political phenomenon about all sorts of crazy things like aliens and the occult and weird alternative history, and that it basically is just an attention grab for everybody to grab audience diverging away from the political objective, which is to bring voters together in a coalition.
- [30:04]
Ben Shapiro
Well, okay, so here is the problem. Okay, let's be very clear about the problem that has now emerged on the right. There are multiple wings that are sort of arguing for the future of the right. One of those wings is led by people like Tucker and Candace. Okay, that is a reality. And pretending that that is not a reality. I mean, I don't believe that you don't even buy it. I don't. I mean, first of all, I think
- [30:26]
Michael Knowles
the wings are led by JD Vance and Marco Rubio, if we're even going to call them wings. I don't think it's the podcast.
- [30:31]
Drew
We gotta get a new ejector seat on this guy. I mean.
- [30:33]
Ben Shapiro
Well, first of all, let's. Okay, that's, that's fine. But then it does beg the question as to why the Vice President of the United States keep ushering Tucker Carlson into the White House in quite visible fashion. While Tucker Carlson is doing many of the things that he is doing, the
- [30:46]
Michael Knowles
Vice President has plenty of friends. The idea that Tucker is his only friend I think is dishonesty.
- [30:51]
Ben Shapiro
And this defense is not going to. And this defense is not going to work for one second of one day. It is not going to. When Barack Obama was running for high office, everybody on the right correctly pointed out that his pastor was Jeremiah Wright. Okay? This notion that people's associations, close personal associations, people who help make them vice president, that. That has no impact on how people see them is obviously untrue. And when we talk about, you know, these sort of growth of particular ideas on the right, pretending that, for example, young Republicans, young conservatives are not being infected with some pretty bad ideas by the people online, is ignoring both the poll data and ignoring the actual viewing data of a lot of these folks.
- [31:30]
Michael Knowles
I agree about the young activists.
- [31:32]
Ben Shapiro
So. Right. And well, that makes. That makes sense. A pretty big difference. And so the question becomes not just quote, unquote, what is the per. Obviously, listen, I think that there is a purpose to calling out evil where it occurs, because calling out evil where it occurs is a good thing to do on a moral level. And so if Candace Owens decides to slander the widow of Charlie Kirk, I think that people have a moral duty to say that this is a bad thing, even if they are, quote, unquote, friends with those people. And I find.
- [31:54]
Michael Knowles
But let's take that further. So obviously one should state one's view and say, you know, Erica's great and the attacks on her are not right.
- [32:01]
Ben Shapiro
Michael, I'll just ask you straight up. Is Candace Owens doing something evil by attacking Erica Kerr?
- [32:06]
Michael Knowles
That it's wrong to attack Erica Kerr?
- [32:07]
Ben Shapiro
Well, no. Say, say the sentence with her name in it.
- [32:11]
Michael Knowles
I'm not going to dance like a puppet for the podcast.
- [32:14]
Ben Shapiro
You don't have to dance like a puppet, but I think it's. You are dancing pretty quickly. I mean, there's a lot of tap dancing here going.
- [32:19]
Michael Knowles
No, I don't think there's any tap dancing.
- [32:21]
Ben Domenech
Even if you are interested in the
- [32:22]
Michael Knowles
podcast, the people who are leading the invective against Candace are her biggest publicists
- [32:28]
Ben Shapiro
and I hope leading the invective against Candace. I mean, this, this, I take a little bit of umbrage at. I don't feel that it's invective to say that what she is doing to Erica Kirk is totally demonic.
- [32:36]
Michael Knowles
No, it is invective. It could be justified invective, but it's certainly invective. My point is all.
- [32:42]
Ben Shapiro
When's the last time you used the term invective to talk about justified invective? Give me a point.
- [32:46]
Michael Knowles
No, of course, the three Most famous speeches in Dante are the invectives, and they're totally justified. Invective can be a good thing. My point is just that what is the goal of that? Is the goal to make oneself feel really morally good? To puff oneself up to one's friends and fans? Or is the goal to try to reduce, I don't know, the popularity of some show? Because if it's the latter, it's not working.
- [33:07]
Drew
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's just about stating principles. That's what we're here for. That's our job.
- [33:11]
Michael Knowles
One can easily do that without focusing all of this attention.
- [33:14]
Drew
We actually cash checks because we state our principles. And this is a real question. This is not. I'm totally against calling people out and calling people names. I think it's a bad thing. But I'm not against calling out evil. I mean, Ben's right. This is the basic. It's the basic bottom line no one disagrees with, but you don't do it.
- [33:34]
Michael Knowles
I've made my view on the E completely clear.
- [33:37]
Drew
Yeah, but I mean, look, you know, Tucker Carlson is sitting around saying that American soldiers implying that American soldiers want to rape Iranian women. And that's what Donald Trump meant by,
- [33:46]
Michael Knowles
you know, unconditional surrender.
- [33:48]
Drew
Unconditional surrender. I mean, that's a disgusting thing to say. American soldiers have been the best behaved soldiers on earth in human history. And I just think it's, you know, when people say that stuff, something's wrong with them. Something has gone wrong with these people, and it's not.
- [34:02]
Michael Knowles
Why would we publicize it, I guess is my question.
- [34:05]
Drew
We don't need to publicize it. As you said, they're tremendously popular. But the thing about it is, like, if you take someone like Candace, I believe Candace is popular with people who no longer matter. You know, anybody who's taking what she says seriously on any level is already lost to the light. As far as I'm concerned. Tucker's a little smarter, although he's starting to go. You know, when you get infested by demons, after a while you're crab walking across the ceiling, cursing at the priest. You know, that's what happens. That's the trajectory of that. But I mean, at some point, you know, you stand for something and you don't stand for anything.
- [34:38]
Michael Knowles
Right. But no one is. I think that's a false dichotomy. Basically, I think we're saying, well, you need to state your principles. You need to state what you believe. Yeah, sure, we all agree on that. The only Question that I have is, should the podcasters be spending all of their time talking about each other in these meta political fights and promoting each other's clips, for goodness sake?
- [34:55]
Ben Shapiro
So, first of all, all of their time is a wild exaggeration as far as I am concerned, because last I checked, what actually happened is that I made one speech at TPUSA and then said literally nothing for months about any of these people.
- [35:06]
Michael Knowles
And they're attacking you. I'm not. It's not just you. I'm not even saying you're leading it. I'm not.
- [35:11]
Ben Shapiro
The only point that I'm making here is that if these people do have a great level of popularity, which they do, and they are saying things that are bad, which they are calling out the bad things that famous people are saying and doing, is actually the thing that we do for a living. And we do it for politicians, Michael, you do it for commentators on the left. We play clips of these people all day long on our shows. When those people are, quote, unquote, purportedly on our side and some of them are in the ear of Vice President of the United States, then it sometimes becomes a little important to actually call that out. And that is the thing that I think is, listen, you can do whatever you want. Obviously, it's a free country. And you're well within the Overton window in your opinions as far as I am concerned. Even if we disagree about your approach to these particular personnel. I mean, many of our hosts have appeared and continue to appear on the shows of the very people that we are talking about. And at no point have I or anybody at the Daily Wire said they should not do that. So. So, you know, that is sort of beside the point as to what we're arguing here. The only point that I'm making is that if what the commentary business is about is speaking to the audience, meaning a large audience of people who are making up their minds as to who they ought to listen to and the kind of ideas they ought to consider good and bad, then yes, it is worthwhile to say it is not worth your time to listen to people who argue that, for example, the Khazarian Jews are responsible for, you know, the breakout of World War 3, or that they're digging tunnels across America like rats, or that the. Or that the Israelis worship baal. If people like that have millions of viewers and that viewership has crossover with the movement that I've grown up my entire life trying to build, and they're. And they're. And their numbers are going up Then I think that it's a good thing to say, hey, guys, you probably shouldn't watch this.
- [36:47]
Michael Knowles
And in this.
- [36:48]
Ben Domenech
Can I jump in here for a second? I just want to make something clear, Michael. I think that a lot of us feel like if you don't speak up and point these things out, you are effectively abandoning the field. You're basically treating it the way that a lot of Republicans used to treat an issue like abortion, where they just didn't want to talk about it. So what it. So what would happen. What would happen is the Democrat would entirely talk about it. They would define the terms, they would determine what the debate was about, and they would attempt to reframe the issue. We saw this happen time and again, by the way, in Virginia. And that's the kind of thing that leads to a false depiction of people who are trying to advocate for moral right as being extremists, when in reality they're just saying, we want to stop killing babies.
- [37:35]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, I think there's a but.
- [37:37]
Ben Domenech
Just to take that to the Candace Owens situation, for example. I just don't think. You don't have to engage with every amount of crazy. But I do think that one of the things that's really been important and worthwhile is that I used to love Tucker. I have known Tucker. I met him when I was 15 years old at the Mayflower.
- [37:54]
Ben Shapiro
He.
- [37:55]
Ben Domenech
It was always very nice to me. We've never.
- [37:57]
Michael Knowles
That's a good cigar.
- [37:58]
Ben Domenech
Personal clash. But the. But the. Yes, but. But the. But the simple fact is he lies to the people who pay him money for those lies, repeatedly. And not just about things that are related to what we've been discussing, but about history, about Winston Churchill, about the nature of reality in the world and particularly foreign policy and our national security. And those are lies that I think have to be confronted on occasion when they rise to that. And if we're not going to confront them, who is? I just sit out there.
- [38:29]
Michael Knowles
There's a flawed premise, which is that by not engaging in these podcaster wars, which become extraordinarily personal and go on forever, much longer than the Iraq or Afghanistan war, by not doing that, we would not be talking about the issues, which is not true. That is completely false. Whether we're talking about. I don't know whether we're talking about the Iran war or the assassination of Charlie or the Khazarian BAAL worshipping, whatever, you know, that Ben was just referencing, one can talk about all of these things. One does talk about all of these things without necessarily engaging in this very personal aspect, which to my mind, no one can give me an answer on what is being accomplished here, because my premise is that a lot of the podcaster stuff is quite and increasingly divorced from the actual political realities. Just one point to finish this. Look at Trump's approval numbers, look at the administration's approval numbers. Look at how people feel about these interventions. Venezuela or Iran won. Even Iran too, compared to the podcasters. 100%, almost of the podcasters and the live streamers are opposed to all of these Trump admin things. The electorate is for it. And so it just seems to me there's this perverse incentive that did not exist in radio and tv. It does exist in the new media, which is to be more radical, to be more sensational, to be more personal, make it more about the host. And these incentives come up because everyone's kind of independent now and they all make it about themselves. And it just seems to me this is not effective for a coalition. And the more attention that you give to the personalities, the more their ratings are going to grow. That wasn't true 10 years ago, but I think it's true in this situation.
- [40:04]
Drew
I do not understand how a man who wrote an entire book claiming that there are some things that are actually off limits to say. You said that it's not that we don't want to cancel people, but the left is canceling the wrong people. Don't we have a responsibility on our side to say, yeah, you know, we.
- [40:20]
Michael Knowles
But we have no ability to do it, is my point.
- [40:22]
Drew
Yes. The hell do you say? The hell you say. We sure do. We're not canceling people, but we do have a right to build up the.
- [40:28]
Michael Knowles
None of these people's ratings have declined even slightly.
- [40:31]
Drew
I don't care whether their ratings decline. It's not who's listening to them. Look, anybody in this country can get 15 million people, especially if you're hating Jews to follow you.
- [40:42]
Michael Knowles
Wait, is that the secret? I've been trying to get 15 million people for 10 years. That's all I gotta do.
- [40:47]
Drew
You don't hate Jews enough.
- [40:48]
Michael Knowles
That's why I gotta work on that.
- [40:49]
Drew
I mean, popularity is not a sign of good or bad. It's just something. Yeah, so it's not their popularity we're attacking, it's their ideas. And their ideas are attached to people. And Tucker is a charming guy and he's a clever guy and he knows how to do what he's doing. And we have to call him out because the words that come out of his mouth are simply untrue. I mean, the facts that he sells are untrue. The morals that he sells are morally illiterate. The Bible. When he talks about the Bible, he's not quoting the Bible accurately or interpreting it accurately.
- [41:23]
Michael Knowles
He's a Protestant. Yeah.
- [41:25]
Drew
Yeah. Well, he's worse than a Protestant. I mean, I'd like. I know. Some pretty decent protests.
- [41:28]
Ben Domenech
He's worse. He's an Episcopalian.
- [41:30]
Drew
I'm just saying. I don't see why we. Yeah, that's true. He's not even a Christian.
- [41:34]
Ben Domenech
I say that as a former.
- [41:37]
Drew
Me too. Me too. Guilty, guilty, guilty.
- [41:40]
Michael Knowles
I would just point out when we're talking because I agree with you, Drew. I'm all for censorship when it's just and prudent and within bounds and all. You're right. That's the whole point of my book, Speechless, which is available for purchase wherever you get fine books. But my point is the two examples where people have really gone out of bounds in recent years. It would be probably Alex Jones, right? It would be when he started talking about Sandy Hook. And then what was the other one? I don't know. Well, I guess actually One Exit. You could actually use an example because
- [42:10]
Ben Domenech
he was right about the cross.
- [42:11]
Michael Knowles
Tucker at Fox before Tucker left. But in both of those cases, how were the standards reinforced? Regardless of whether you think it was good or bad, what happened to Alex Jones or Tucker, you know how it was enforced. Through lawfare, through censorship. Actually, a way better example than Fox. Father Coughlin, most popular radio host in America. What was it? One in four American households was listening to him. He did not go off the air because people complained about him and called more attention to his program. He went off the air because the hierarchy of the church and the White House shut him down. That was basically what did it. And so I guess my whole argument here is not that we shouldn't have standards. It's not that we shouldn't say what we believe. It's just that if one is going to undertake a political tactic, it should work. And in this case, I just don't. I think this one's been totally counterproductive.
- [43:00]
Ben Shapiro
Here's what I'll say, just about the efficacy point, and then I want to bring this away from struggle sessioning Michael, and back toward, like, actually what I think is a more realistic issue. So as far as the utilitarian nature of the tactic, it depends who you're talking to. If the goal is to inform people who say, we're Fox News, Tucker, fans of what Tucker has been saying, Lately, I think that is a virtuous thing to do because I think there are a lot of people who are totally unaware of the stuff that Tucker is saying now or has been saying, who have sort of vestigial goodwill for the Tucker Carlson they remember from 2018. I think it's a very real phenomenon, which is why he has broader purchase. I think telling young people who are falling into the trap of listening to Candace or to Tucker's lies that what they're listening to is actively untrue is a useful thing to do. And if their numbers continue to go up, they continue to go up. But you've done your duty in at least giving people the informational choices available and then they can make their own decision, because, of course, it is a free country and no one is actually calling for people to be banned from the air. Where this makes a difference, where the rubber meets the road. This goes back to your point, Michael, about sort of the political. And this is where, you know, I know Drew went right into the Tucker when he started talking about jd, which is, remember where I'm trying to reverse engineer where we were in this conversation. And this again, is why we have the show is so we can actually beat the living hell out of each other, obviously. But the JD and the, and the Rubio of the it, it goes to coalition building, which I think lies under a lot of this. What is the coalition that each of these candidates is trying to build? I think the reason there's been a lot of heat and light around JD and Tucker is because the question is, is JD's coalition, is it inclusive not only of Tucker as, you know, a voter, but coalitions include lots of voters. Is it inclusive of Tucker's ideas? Is it inclusive of Tucker as a leader of that coalition? Because if so, that's a very different coalition than the coalition of Donald Trump, who may eventually, who may talk to Tucker and then we'll go out publicly and say he can say whatever he wants. I don't listen to a word he says, which is something that J.D. vance has never said about Tucker Carlson. And I think it's leading to a lot of people suspecting maybe he agrees with some of the things that Tucker is doing and saying. And probably one of the reasons why Donald Trump himself, you know, you kind of led this off by saying Trump has appointed JD his heir and then Marco his running mate, and Marco has committed to the idea that he's not going to run against jd, But I don't think that that's quite accurate in the Depiction of what Trump has said about JD or Rubio. He said, I like both these guys.
- [45:15]
Drew
Yeah.
- [45:15]
Ben Shapiro
He says, I like both these guys. And then he's apparently been pulling rooms of donors as to which one people like better. And a lot of the donors seem to like Rubio better. And I think there are some reasons for that, including kind of JD's affect, I think also including the sort of political. These are political coalition building. And here I want to kind of shift the conversation into a prudential one, which is which one of these candidates, if you had to choose right, assume both of them were running. They're not. But assume both of them were running for a second. Which one is likely to build a successful coalition. I want to get to that in just one second. First, guys, we have to talk about sleeping because honestly, after this we're all going to need to, you know, lie down. This is, this is, this has been extraordinarily stressful, I think, for the audience, for us, for Michael is the one time I've ever felt bad for Michael, frankly.
- [45:56]
Michael Knowles
Who you feel bad for me for.
- [45:58]
Ben Shapiro
I feel bad for you, Michael, because you don't have a Helix Sleep mattress.
- [46:01]
Michael Knowles
Or maybe you do.
- [46:01]
Ben Shapiro
If you do, okay, you do. So you're right. I don't feel bad.
- [46:04]
Drew
Deserve a Helix Sleep mat.
- [46:08]
Ben Shapiro
Well, folks, Helix Sleep has a sleep quiz. It uses your preferred sleep position, firmness and other factors to match you with the right mattress for you, which is a far more rational system than wandering around a showroom and laying on random beds. Helix is an award winning mattress brand reviewed by outlets like Forbes and Wired. Now that I know that Michael loves the Helix mattress, Michael, tell me about something that you and I agree on. The magic of the Helix Sleep mattress.
- [46:29]
Michael Knowles
I. Well, listen, I know a lot of people, they close their eyes, they think about what it's like to sleep with me, but they don't. They can think the same thing about you because of these beautiful Helix mattresses. One thing that's very, very important, and you realize this as you get a little older, is you want to be a good father. You want to lead your kids in the right way. I'm such a good father. Both of my eldest boys, both of the boys who are out of the crib are sleeping in Helix Mattress. I worry I might be spoiling them. Actually, Helix ships directly to your door in the United States with free shipping, a 120 night sleep trial, a limited lifetime warranty, meaning you can test it risk free, you can send it back. You're not going to Send it back. That is how they can offer. They could offer you 120 year guarantee you will keep your Helix mattress.
- [47:15]
Ben Shapiro
I've met the founders of Helix. They're awesome people. They make truly awesome products. Head on over to helixleep.com FriendlyFire For 27% off site wide, that's helixsleep.com FriendlyFire A lot of fire, some friendship. For 27% off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know that we sent you Again, that's helixsleep.com FriendlyFire Now's the time for us to say goodbye to Ben Domenech and Ben. They're not all like this. I have to say, this episode, you know, the minute that Walsh steps out, suddenly, you know, the actual battles begin. Who would have figured that one but Ben. Thanks for stopping by. Really appreciate it.
- [47:48]
Drew
Good to see you, Ben. Welcome aboard.
- [47:50]
Michael Knowles
That's cause Walsh. You know, everyone thinks cause Walsh seems kind of disagreeable, that he's the one that's gonna love to scrap. He actually hate. We're the ones that love to fight. This company, we kind of forget it. A lot of people don't even know this. When this company began, 2015, 2016, the first two hours of the day,
- [48:10]
Ben Shapiro
we
- [48:10]
Michael Knowles
would just beat the hell out of each other for like an hour or something.
- [48:15]
Drew
You remember Ben, would we, you and I would fight so much that the women would call us up and say, are you okay? They're always would make me laugh. Yeah, yeah, we'd have totally forgotten it. Are you guys all right?
- [48:26]
Ben Shapiro
Yeah, exactly. Everyone's like, is everything okay in the office? Like, yeah, we're just beating the hell out of each other. That's what we.
- [48:30]
Michael Knowles
I actually my kind of button, this is my like esoteric philosophical button on the podcaster. War is sort of like tactical disputes. It occurred to me the other day this might come down to a Kantian versus Aristotelian thing. Is that too much?
- [48:47]
Drew
Yeah.
- [48:47]
Michael Knowles
Is that too much?
- [48:49]
Ben Shapiro
I know.
- [48:49]
Drew
I think you should call it Kantian.
- [48:51]
Ben Shapiro
Well, yeah. Well, I mean, number one, if you're calling me a Kantian, you know, you can just.
- [48:56]
Michael Knowles
Those are fighting words. Those are fighting words.
- [48:58]
Ben Shapiro
Second of all, I think that based on the evidence, Aristotle himself would look at Tucker Carlson and think to himself, dude does too much Al. And then look at Candace Owens and saying, none of this seems to be rooted in the evidence that I see here on this earth before I build platonic visions.
- [49:12]
Michael Knowles
Well, that was the problem. You know, sometimes people say like, wow, we know more than the ancient philosophers, you know, because they lived a long time ago and they. And we have scientific discoveries. Yeah, forget about that. It's. We have nicotine. They didn't have nicotine then, so their brains didn't work quite as well.
- [49:26]
Ben Shapiro
That must be it. That must be it. Only made in India. You need nicotine made only in India. The greatest nicotine is only made in. Anyway, enough of my snide references to, you know, a guy who was scratched, to be fair, by a demon. Let's talk instead about the coalitional differences inside the Republican Party. This actually is, I think, an interesting topic and it is more of a pragmatic topic than some of these sort of ideological battles that we're talking about. I'm going to make the case that J.D. vance has a coalitional problem. Not in sense of like Tucker versus me or any of that kind of stuff. I'm going to make the case that if you look at Donald Trump's coalition, J.D. vance is trying to replicate almost identically Donald Trump's coalition. I do not think it is possible for JD Vance to do this. I think this is a poor strategy. JD's brilliant. I think JD's incredibly talented. I think there's a world where JD can build his own coalition, but it looks different than the Trump coalition. When I look at J.D. vance right now, what I see is somebody who will underperform Trump in nearly every category, meaning he will win fewer non college educated white voters because it is not possible to win more non college educated white voters than Donald Trump does. He will win fewer Hispanics for sure. He'll win fewer black voters, you'll win fewer women, he'll win fewer Jews, he'll win fewer Asians. And so I look at the coalition that Trump has built and I think, where is the pickup? Like, where is the. Where is where? If you're, if you were setting a stereo, where exactly is the factor? Where's the base? Where do you ramp up the treble? You know, like, where exactly does he ramp it up? And when I look at Rubio, I know exactly where he loses. Some of Trump's coalition, like blue collar white voters probably won't vote as much for Marco Rubio. But does he do better than Trump did with Hispanics? That's possible. Does he do better with college educated whites than Trump did? That's certainly possible. Well, he's better with women than President Trump did. That's possible too. Now, none of that's a guarantee. Yeah, but that at least is sort of an interesting thought as far as is, what does a future post Trump coalition look like? Because people tend to think of, like post Trump politicians, but every politician's got their own coalition. The Bush coalition was not exactly the Trump coalition. Right. Bush had the soccer moms, Trump really didn't. So what exactly does the Vance Coalition look like? A victorious Vance coalition. I know, Michael, you're a big fan of sort of the Vance Coalition vision,
- [51:26]
Michael Knowles
so I'll let you add that, no secret, I'm a big admirer of the vp. But it's a good point you raised, Ben. I mean, even down to, according to these reports, who knows if they're real, but let's say they are real, that the donors like Rubio more. That doesn't surprise me at all. The donors in 16 liked Rubio more than, frankly, most of the other guys on stage, other than Jeb Bush. So that doesn't surprise me. In fact, I think a lot of the Vice President's appeal is he doesn't speak directly to the donor class. I think he's fluent enough in their language. He spent time in Silicon Valley. He's a lawyer from a top school, so he can talk to them. But I agree, it's more. He's going to speak more to blue collar voters and, you know, more to a populist coalition. I guess you raise a serious challenge. The counterexample I would give is George H.W. bush. So you get two terms of Reagan. The Reaganites kind of hated the Bushies. Here at least there's real alignment between Trump and J.D. vance. You know, the Reagan Bush ticket was a compromise to unify the party. The Reaganites were very, very skeptical of the Bushies. Bush was less appealing than Reagan in almost every way, and he was able to win as a matter of Reagan's third term. Now, I think clearly JD Being picked as the VP for a non consecutive second term, he was being set up to be Trump's third term. And so this creates another problem for JD I don't think it's a coalitional problem. I think it's a. You ride or die by Trump. I mean that like there is really no light whatsoever between the President and the vice President. I think in many ways the horse races that are trying to distinguish the differences here. No, I think basically Trump's going to win a third term or he's not.
- [53:03]
Ben Shapiro
I think that's right.
- [53:05]
Drew
I was a big supporter of Vance before he was picked. I thought, like, this is the perfect guy. I think Rubio has done a spectacular job as Secretary of State. He's the one thing that Trump says that I don't think is hyperbole when he calls him one of the great secretaries of state. I saw him at the meeting about the anti cartel organizations and when Rubio was speaking in fluent Spanish to the assembled people from south of the border. I just was thinking, every Hispanic in America is going to vote for this guy. I mean, the guy is unbelievably good at what he's doing. He has a record that is, you know, I'm not as big a believer in what the media tries to sell. People vote for, they think we vote for looks, they think we vote for, you know, all kinds of things that work well on television. But I think people actually pay attention to some of the issues, especially economic issues. And, you know, Rubio was soft on the border. He really, even though he won the support of donors, I think that Trump wiped the floor with him as a candidate. I mean, he made him look really, really bad. And some of those videos are going to come back to haunt him. I do think that, you know, I don't want to get back on Tucker, but I do think that you do
- [54:13]
Michael Knowles
want to get back on Tucker. Yes, you do.
- [54:16]
Drew
I think that Vance has given himself a moral problem. If we go inif this war in Iran continues to be successful, and if it's as successful as we all hope it will be, I think Vance looks kind of bad. And I think, and I don't say that with any kind of animosity because I really do like the guy. And I think he's better. I think he's better than he appears. And I think he'd make a good president. But I think that he has given himself a moral problem. And normally in America, America has changed over the years. But normally in America, these hate fests, like the Jewish, anti Jewish hate fest that's going on right now, they blow up the bubble and then the bubble explodes and people come back to their senses. Like in the Salem witch trials. They sort of remember who they are. They remember what America is. And I think that if that happens, a lot of people are going to have some stench on them. And one of them is JD Vance. So right now I'm just a little bit concerned that Vance doesn't have what it takes to, to stick the ball, you know, to make it over the goal line.
- [55:14]
Ben Shapiro
And that's kind of interesting. You know, remember Selena, Zito had that famous phrase about Trump, take him seriously, but not literally. Which I think remains the single best description of how to actually treat the President. You know, when you think about that, I think there's a case to be made that Marco Rubio takes the President seriously and JD Vance takes him literally. What I mean by this is that if you look at how the Vice President sort of interprets the way that Trump ran in 2024, he interprets. It's the way that Trump ran as he was the Joe Rogan candidate, right? He was the guy who was. Who's going on Theo Vaughn and Joe Rogan. And so if you just sort of be the guy who goes on Theo Vaughn or Joe Rogan, that's the sort of swing vote that you need to appeal to is Theo Vaughn and Joe Rogan. The point that I've made, including to be on the Vice President's staff, is that I do not actually think that that is an accurate depiction of where politics is going to be in 28. I would be shocked if Joe Rogan votes Republican in 2028. I'd be shocked if the Ovant votes Republican in 2028. You can already see them creating gaps between themselves and the administration in order to move away and back toward, quote, unquote, the middle or back toward the other side because they realize that in the polls, you know, the popularity of the administration isn't exactly soaring right now. And so trying to program is that you're not going to be able to outbid a Democrat when it comes to being anti Israel. You're not going to be able to outbid a Democrat when it comes to being, you know, big governments oriented and anti capitalist and anti billions business. You're not going to be able to outbid them on any of that. And if the only thing you have is transgenderism, granted that's a powerful issue for a lot of the podcast bros. But this is where, you know, Michael, to go back to sort of the broader podcast point not having to do with, you know, any specific personality. The, the, the reality is that we called the last election the podcast election for a reason. These people, their voices do matter. And pretending they don't matter is, of course, I think, whistling past the graveyard. I think that the Vice President has all the talent in the world and all the intellectual capacity in the world world. I think that he is actively misreading the nature of the American electorate. If he thinks that, that the way to build a coalition is to find the Joe Rogan voter and then grab that Rogan voter and hold him by the hand all the way to the polls. I think that, that, that is not going to work out well for Him. And then you look at Rubio and you think, man, I've never seen more two dissimilar people than President Trump and Marco Rubio.
- [57:16]
Drew
Right?
- [57:16]
Ben Shapiro
I mean, just like wildly dissimilar. But if you look at where they are in policy, Rubio has been in. There has not been a single story that has been leaked the entire administration, the entire administration in which Rubio was not in lockstep with the president. There have been stories almost every two weeks about how Vance was not in lockstep with the president, including one from Politico today about the president and the vice president with regard to Iran. Now, I don't know whether those leaks are coming from Team VP or Team Anti vp. It could be either.
- [57:41]
Drew
Not only that, not only that Trump has done. The presence of Trump, the experience of Trump has done something to Rubio. He is not the man he was. I think we all notice this. He is not as unsure on his feet. He's not incredibly articulate. He's incredibly on point. There's something about being around Trump that has made him a better man and a better candidate. And I think everybody can see that. And I think Trump is, you know, I think Trump's having fun, you know, polling people about which candidate is which. And I think he's almost playing a political game. But still, I think that there is something that, you know, we all. I thought of J.D. vance as the third Trump term, but right this minute, if I had to pick which one of them was the third Trump turbo, I'd be hard pressed to do it.
- [58:21]
Ben Shapiro
You know, the other, the other thing that I think is worth mentioning here is that again, Marco says he doesn't want to run if JD Is running. So it may be a moot point, but it's a message that I think that the Vance campaign should pick up. If there is this much roiling underneath the surface about like. Well, yeah, then maybe there are some voices worth listening to on that side of the aisle as well. If you're talking about a coalitional approach and one side of your coalition is deeply, deeply unhappy, then it may be worthwhile to, you know, maybe steer a little bit differently is all. I would say, again, if we're talking practical, pragmatic, coalition building.
- [58:52]
Michael Knowles
Now, look, one of the reasons that we can do uncensored ad free daily shows, exclusive live news coverage and investigative reporting is simple. Daily Wire plus members make it possible. So we need you. You are the. I have to say, I don't mean any shade to Walsh. I always like it when Walsh is Here. This is my favorite episode of this show. It really feels like the old days again. Look, we'll get Walsh in scrappy spirit, too, but it only increases my appreciation of the Daily Wire members. It is because of you. You're the ones who let us do it. So if you want more of this, then you have to go to DailyWire.com subscribe to join us today. So now that we've talked about all the interesting things, I am forced under duress to talk about something that interests me not in the least. But thankfully, speaking of the old days, we're bringing back an old pal of ours from la, Christian Toto. Apparently, the. Apparently the Oscars are coming up. Is that right? Do I have that right?
- [59:53]
Christian Toto
I think so. So here's my take on Tucker.
- [59:55]
Ben Shapiro
Oh, sorry.
- [59:56]
Christian Toto
We're gonna. Yeah, this is the worst weekend of my, of my professional life when I
- [60:01]
Drew
have to watch the Oscars because I
- [60:03]
Christian Toto
can't tune away for a second and the show goes on for at least eight hours.
- [60:06]
Drew
Hours.
- [60:06]
Ben Domenech
Yeah.
- [60:07]
Drew
That's one of my best weekends because I don't watch it.
- [60:10]
Ben Shapiro
I mean, for the people who are watching it, I'm just going to point out here, Calci is one of our sponsors. The calcium market suggests that one battle after another is going to win best Picture. Michael B. Jordan is going to win best Actor. That is what the. The calcium markets are suggesting. And 76% for one battle after another. That is the Paul Thomas Anderson piece of crap all about how America is run by white supremacists. And those white supremacists want to have wild sex with black radical revolutionaries.
- [60:39]
Drew
Unless that were America. That would be so much more fun than this.
- [60:43]
Ben Shapiro
Thanks for that, Drew. And Best Actor, Michael B. Jordan. Huge late search for Michael B. Jordan, not because he's playing for the Chicago Bulls, but because this is the other Michael B. Jordan. Because Timothy Chalamet said some bad things, apparently, about opera and, and ballet. This is like the big. I love that. We're now down to a controversy where, where Timothee Chalamet pointed out that there aren't that many people who are fans of opera and ballet. And let me say, as a fan of both, there are not that many fans of opera.
- [61:08]
Ben Domenech
Yeah.
- [61:09]
Ben Shapiro
And ballet. So, yeah, Christian, I have. Have you watched all 10 of these? I watched all 10 of the best picture nominees. I will say Secret Agent, but I've seen everything else.
- [61:18]
Christian Toto
And you know, you. You forgot the key thing against Chalamet is that they said he's got too much. Much swagger. What the Oscar voting process has been reduced to is this sort of bizarre personality test where if you say the wrong thing, if you insult cats like Jesse Buckley has done to risk her Hamnet nomination, that things can go south. So it's really crazy why we don't really judge on the best picture, best actor. It's everything but these days.
- [61:46]
Ben Shapiro
So let's. Let's talk about what you think actually was the best pictures. I watched, watched every single one of them. I thought that they were basically all extremely lackluster, except for one, which I thought was pretty good. So I. I thought one battle after another was terrible. I thought that Sinners. The first half of it was. Was really kind of interesting. And then it just did from dawn till Dusk, but super duper racist Hamnet. I was underwhelmed by the one that I thought actually was quite interesting was Marty Supreme. I thought Marty supreme featured characters that were wildly unlikable, but it had something in kind of the same way that the movie with Adrien Brody last year. What was the name of that? The Brutalist. In the same way that it was sort of. Yeah, in the same way that I did not like it, but it was interesting. Marty Supreme I liked more, but it was similarly interesting. It was trying to say some things. And Shalom's performance is, in fact, fantastic. It is a really, really good performance. I wonder what you thought. The. The best picture of this lackluster bunch
- [62:37]
Christian Toto
was not to be kissing up. But that was my favorite movie of the year. My favorite performance as well. It really was bursting with originality, but it all made sense. And you know, the great actors, the Gene Hackmans of the world can play a villain or a jerk or a cat, and you can't help but root for him or love him sometimes. And I think that's what Chalamet did because his character, on paper, is a horrible human being. Yet he was so determined and so smart and so savvy and so unwilling to give up that you couldn't help but root for him, even if he did the wrong thing one time after another. It's a really good film. It's not going to win, sadly. But I agree.
- [63:14]
Ben Shapiro
I mean, and it kind of reminded me of Drew Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz. Right? If you watch Marty supreme and you watch Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz, it's hitting a lot of the same notes about the corrupting nature of, you know, trying to seek success in society above your morality. This one actually has a bizarrely happy ending, which I wasn't sort of expecting that at the very end. It's like he achieves his dream and then he becomes a decent person. Seems to be the implication at the very end.
- [63:38]
Drew
Yeah, I found it an unearned. I also just thought it was the same scene for two and a half hours, basically. I thought it was just very repetitive. You know, the guy's a great actor. He's actually a terrific actor. I want to put in a vote for Anaconda with Jack Black. I have to tell you something. I know this is hilarious. I gotta tell you, I came home and I watched that, you know, sitting around channel. I was in stitches. That movie is funny. It's so dumb that I thought, like, was that me? Am I like that? So I wrote to a pal in England who's a very, very sophisticated literary guy, writer, excellent critic of plot, and he wrote me back, said, I just watched it at your recommendation. That's a really funny movie. I just think that Jack Black should win best actor. I think the Snake should win best snake. It just made me. It's just. If you have a chance to watch it with a couple of drinks especially. It is a hilarious movie. That's. That's the movie I like this year.
- [64:35]
Christian Toto
Harvey Weinstein was the best snake, but then they. He's not available.
- [64:39]
Michael Knowles
I did not watch a single movie this year, and now I actually am excited to watch Anaconda. That's the only one I don't. I thought about. I was on a flight and I was gonna watch one of the movies that's nominated. And I said, will I do it? At least here I have. You know, I got endless boos coming from the cabin. And I said, no, I just don't want to. Whatever. The one about how we're all white supremacists. One battle after another, one battle after another. I almost. Yeah, no, I heard it was a good movie, which would have made me angrier. I think, actually, that, you know, this kind of good artistry was going to the service of this bad thing. But no, I guess now I'll watch Anaconda. I did read in the coverage and Christian, maybe you can tell me if it's true or not. I heard that in terms of the Oscars show, there aren't really a lot of stars, like hosting the show or doing the. It's kind of a weak dais. Is that right?
- [65:28]
Christian Toto
You know, it's been weak in the past few years. You think you want the Nicholsons and the Denzels of the world to be there, the true stars, but then they're gonna have Jimmy Kimmel on stage as a presenter. So just imagine what that's gonna be. Standing ovation. That could go on for maybe even three plus hours itself.
- [65:44]
Ben Shapiro
Yeah.
- [65:45]
Christian Toto
You know, I almost wonder why the big, big stars avoid the night. And that maybe could be telling in and of itself.
- [65:51]
Drew
Yeah. Who's going to tell us how to vote if the big stars?
- [65:54]
Ben Shapiro
I mean. That's right. Honestly, when I look at this later films this year, there were somewhere when I read the logline, I was like, I feel like this could be interesting. And then it just really was disappointing. The biggest one that was like that for me was Hamnet. I'm a sucker for that sort of stuff. And so the fact that I found Hamnet intensely irritating and self congratulatory was annoying to me because again, when it comes to like, like pretentious art that, that references literature I love, I'm. I'm all in for that, baby. That's like, that's my jam. And, and the fact that, that Chloe Zhao somehow turned that into a bizarre piece about witchcraft in the woods, that, that was, that was very strange to me. So, you know, it's unfortunate. Hopefully we'll have some better movies to, to look at next year. Okay, so let's say that you're in your office pool, Christian. Which one is the upset pick? You're looking at these Couchy markets. You're seeing Michael B. Jordan for best actor. You're seeing, I believe, the who's who's going to win best actress this year. I think this one is. This is Jesse Buckley. Jesse Buckley. Yeah. Where's the upset pick on the board if you're looking to make a little quick buck over the weekend?
- [66:54]
Christian Toto
Oh, gosh, you know, I think the best supporting categories are often the most unusual. You know, Marisa Tomei back in the day, Mira Sorvino winning as well. But this one, Amy Madigan seems like a lock for weapons because it was a really good horror film. The smart heart, different heart kind of horror. And she's been around forever and she's given good performances and she's done all the right things. So I don't see an upset there in the best actor. Gosh, are they going to give it to Sean Penn? It was the most overacting I've ever seen.
- [67:22]
Ben Shapiro
So it's ridiculous. I don't know. By the way, of all of all the categories, that's the one that pisses me off the most because Sean Penn is actually good in some things, but he is awful in this. Right in Mystic River. He's terrific in this.
- [67:32]
Drew
Oh, he can be great. He can be a great answer.
- [67:34]
Ben Shapiro
So bad in this movie. Movie, like truly bad in this film.
- [67:38]
Drew
He played the part as it was written. I mean, I don't know.
- [67:40]
Ben Shapiro
I understand. I mean, maybe there, maybe there wasn't anything for him to do. That's, that's a fair critique, but it is frustrating.
- [67:44]
Christian Toto
Delroy Lindo for Sinners and best supporting because he's been a good, sturdy character actor for ages and it's a fine performance. And you know, there is a sentimentality built into the Oscars where an older star deserves his or her time. So I think if you'd be an upset, that might be it.
- [68:00]
Ben Shapiro
Here. Here's my upset pick. My upset pick pick is one battle after another wins best picture, but Ryan Coogler wins best director. Yeah, that's my upset pick because I mean, and frankly, I kind of would agree with that. This is not even like the top five of Paul Thomas Anderson movies. And so, so him, him winning for this feels like a lifetime achievement award more than like, like an actual reference to the nature of this film, which is, is not one one of his better ones. Well, you know, unless you have anything more to say about the Oscars, I got nothing. I'm all out. I've emptied the clip over here.
- [68:29]
Drew
Really bad films, really bad, bad lineup, I think.
- [68:32]
Michael Knowles
Can I just make one more point about Tucker? I. I just.
- [68:38]
Ben Domenech
We don't have time.
- [68:38]
Drew
Wait, who are we talking about?
- [68:41]
Christian Toto
One quick thought, if I may add. You know the BAFTA awards in Britain a few, a few weeks ago there was that N word that was uttered by the person with Tourette's, that scandal, that non scandal has bled into the Oscar season to the point where maybe because an all black cast like sinners may have some momentum all of a sudden based on that sort of sympathy, that virtue signal that's insane in so many levels. And the fact that they. Everyone is treating this poor fellow as a monster when it's his condition, it's just terribly sad.
- [69:12]
Ben Shapiro
I'm looking forward to the Tourette's outburst when somebody says the one thing you're not allowed to say in Hollywood. I voted for Trump.
- [69:17]
Drew
Yeah.
- [69:18]
Ben Shapiro
And everyone just melts down. It goes crazy in there, the team. Well, folks, if you actually want breaking news, not on the Oscars, but maybe on the Oscars, then you have to go over to Daily Wire plus for all of that. No outside pressure, no corporate gatekeepers that tell us what we can say. Just the facts and the analysis that matter. To you and many opinions about a wide variety of hosts about whom I've been told we should not have. In any case, if that's the coverage that you're looking for, head on over to DailyWire.com subscribe. Become a member today. Honestly, we couldn't do any of the fun stuff that we do and the interesting and naturally necessary stuff that we do without your membership rib. And by the way, this is our psa. This is why we have friendly fire. We disagree, and we can all be friends.
- [69:58]
Drew
We hate each other, folks.
- [70:04]
Michael Knowles
See you guys. See you guys next time.
- [70:06]
Drew
It's good to see you.
- [70:06]
Ben Shapiro
All right. The more you know.