"I Get Really Itchy" Michael & The Furry | Nathan (Fursona)

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Michael Knowles Show – “I Get Really Itchy” Michael & The Furry | Nathan (Fursona)

Date: May 30, 2026
Host: Michael Knowles (The Daily Wire)
Guest: Nathan (Fursona: Nathan)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into “furrydom” – the subculture of people who enjoy and often inhabit the personas (fursonas) of anthropomorphic animal characters – through a sometimes skeptical but candid conversation between Michael Knowles and his guest, Nathan, an active furry. The discussion covers Nathan’s personal journey, the appeal of the furry community, misconceptions, culture at conventions, and broader reflections on identity, escapism, sexuality, social difficulties, and modern digital life. Knowles repeatedly challenges, questions, and genuinely seeks to understand what draws people to furrydom, using Nathan’s experience as a lens.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nathan’s Furry Origin Story

• Nathan began identifying as a furry around eight years old (circa 2012), initially sparked by an intense interest in werewolves and cryptids.
• Parental concern curtailed more extreme childhood beliefs: “They promptly shut that down, to an extent. Some of the not more extreme things that I was thinking, but they promptly shut it down.” (11:18)
• Escapism from family turmoil and shyness was a driving force. The internet fostered Nathan’s engagement, finding like-minded communities and art: “I started making stories and everything like that, some small short stories, making personalities for my characters.” (16:26)

2. Fursonas and Identity

• Nathan’s fursona, also named Nathan, acts as both a mirror and an aspiration of self: “Through the years... he kind of morphed into kind of who I am as a regular person. It’s more a Persona, just obviously with a bunch of fur.” (3:41)
• Fursonas can represent different aspects of personality – energetic, shy, etc.
• Art and character creation (often commissioned) are core to the hobby, sometimes costing thousands across art and costumes.

3. Community, Stigma, and Escapism

• The furry fandom is described as both a “fandom” and a “melting pot of personalities”: “It expands your world. It’s crazy.” (21:35)
• Furries often endure online ridicule and social stigma, exacerbated by viral “cringe compilations.” Yet, for many, embracing “cringe is to be free”: “Being cringe is fine... to be cringe is to be free. Not really worry about what anyone has to think about you.” (9:10)
• Escapism is both a motivation and a comfort, allowing shy or neurodivergent people social opportunities via anonymity and fantasy.
• Anonymity is a double-edged sword; it shields from judgment but can, in rare cases, enable bad actors (29:00 – 33:10).

4. Sexuality and the Furry Community

• Knowles presses the sexual association, referencing stats that 90% of furries identify as LGBT or non-straight.
• Nathan acknowledges a paraphilic/sexual aspect exists but argues it’s not core for most: “I will say that it is prevalent... but it’s not to a point to where it’s everything.” (35:14)
• The subculture’s internet boom and intersection with sexual minorities is discussed. Historical roots trace to adult comics (e.g., Fritz the Cat).

5. Furry Conventions: Experience & Culture

• Conventions are a major part of the community – e.g., Anthrocon (Pittsburgh) attracts nearly 19,000 attendees.
• Activities range from showcasing costumes and badges, to themed panels (on art, fursuiting, safety), live music, comedy acts, and raves.
• Notably, there are health resources (e.g., STD testing), an acknowledgment of parties and the need for safety, without sensationalizing the sexual element: “There are parties that do happen. They do tend, mind you, tend to get sexual… But not all of them are.” (25:04)

6. Mental Health, Friendship, & Survival

• Nathan credits the furry community with having saved his life during a period of intense loneliness, familial fracture, and loss: “With the people that I have met... I honestly don’t think I’d be sitting here in front of you. Well, I’d probably be dead.” (57:21, 58:43)
• He found genuine connection, validation, and support talking to others with similar struggles.
• The fandom also has a significant charitable component, fundraising for causes—often animal related, but also hospitals (60:05).

7. Digital Life and Socialization

• Most furries interact primarily online—Nathan estimates 90% of his social life is internet-mediated (82:18).
• The affinity between furry culture, digital communication, and neurodiversity is highlighted.
• Furries often work in IT or STEM fields; the subculture flourished with Web 2.0.

8. Misconceptions, Subgroups, and Boundaries

• Not all furries believe they are animals, but subgroups like “therians” do believe in a spiritual connection to animals (94:41).
• Costuming extends beyond animals to objects or mythical creatures, blurring boundaries: “There are two fur suits that I know of. One is a cone, like a traffic cone, and then another one is a spray bottle…” (43:01)
• Furrydom intersects with but is distinct from cosplay.

9. Integration Into ‘Normal’ Life and Forward Outlook

• While the community is marginalized, Nathan maintains most members have mainstream jobs and many maintain family lives.
• He admits there’s social stigma: “You would have an easier time finding someone if you weren’t in such an eccentric hobby.” (66:13)
• For now, Nathan expects to continue, but acknowledges the door is open to stepping away someday: “There might be [a time]... There's always a chance that you could hang something up.” (116:39-117:04)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

The Identity Mask

• Michael Knowles: “But you are literally wearing a mask and being someone who you really, truly are not.” (9:49)

Mental Health and Survival

• Nathan: “With all of the... people that I have met and the conversations that I have had, I honestly don't think I'd be sitting here in front of you.” (57:21)
• Michael Knowles: “What do you mean you wouldn't be here?”
  Nathan: “Well, I'd probably be dead.” (58:43)

On Being ‘Cringe’

• Nathan: “To be cringe is to be free… You’re being who you really, truly are without any masks or anything.” (9:08, 9:32)
• Knowles: “But you are literally wearing a mask…”

On Anonymity

• Knowles: “No one can really judge you if you’re anonymous because they don’t know who you are.”
• Nathan: “All they see is Nathan. They don’t see the guy under the mask.” (27:18)

Conventions: Beyond Fur

• Nathan: “My favorite aspect is the raves... Everyone else is dancing. I can join in because I hate... I love that. Just because for me, being as introverted as I am, I love to kind of just let loose.” (77:44, 78:53)

On Furry Character Creation

• Knowles: “What are the levels of the furry fandom?”
  Nathan: “There’s… surface-level interest… making your fursona… buying art… getting fursuits… multiple fursuits…” (67:07)

Societal Critique

• Knowles: “You know what’s weirder is a culture that normalizes and encourages divorce... A culture that is increasingly atomized…” (63:16)

On Shame and Stigma

• Knowles: “You want to remain anonymous as a furry… Since it does seem to contradict that, is that maybe a sign that... at a certain point you ought to give it up if you find something still a little off or odd or shameful about it?” (123:47, 124:33)

On the Limits of Furry Identity

• Nathan: “There are even mythical animals, like dragons, manticores… (99:11)
  Knowles: “Would it be insensitive to wear a fishnet to a furry convention? To the fish fursonas?” (99:00)
  Nathan: “No, I don’t think so.” (99:06)

On Charity and Good Deeds

• Nathan: “A good example is the charity outreach that a lot of the fandom does is insane. There are very well-mannered and righteous people.” (59:51)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:58]: Nathan defines being a furry, explains fursonas.
• [10:20-13:25]: Discussion of family background, escapism, finding the community.
• [21:21]: Literary aside, “sound and furries signifying something.”
• [27:18-29:00]: Impact of anonymity, neurodiversity.
• [32:28-34:29]: Accountability, community standards for misconduct.
• [35:14-36:27]: Discussing sexual reputation, roots in adult comic art.
• [46:02-51:14]: Social awkwardness, the furry suit as an icebreaker.
• [57:21-61:22]: Nathan on mental health, suicidal thoughts, and the community’s lifesaving role.
• [82:18]: “I’ll go to say like 90% [of my life is] online.”
• [94:41]: Therians and belief in spiritual animal identity.
• [99:11]: The inclusion of non-animals and mythical creatures.
• [110:53]: Furry-cosplay relationship.

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Takeaways

• The furry community serves as an oasis for creativity, socializing, and self-exploration—especially for those struggling with shyness or loneliness.
• There is a substantial stigma, yet most members maintain typical day jobs and relationships outside the fandom.
• The culture is not monolithically sexual but is unusually LGBT; escapism and creativity are core motivators.
• Furrydom’s internet roots have fostered a culture more tolerant of ambiguity and neurodivergence, but the experience largely remains online.
• Conventions offer both safe spaces and, sometimes, adult indulgence—though not all rumors are fair.
• For Nathan, being a furry has been both a vessel for survival and friendship during adolescence and a continuing, if ever-evolving, part of adulthood.

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Closing Thought

Nathan: "It's not as taboo as it seems... there are some fantastic people in this community. It outweighs everything you've ever heard." (121:24)

Michael Knowles: “Maybe next time we chat, I'll be sitting here and I'll have my own fursona on.” (125:04)

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Transcript

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[Nathan]

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[Nathan]

Great brands, great prices, that's.

[Michael Knowles]

Do you think your life would be better if you were not a Furry?

[Nathan]

If I wasn't a Furry, well, I'd probably be dead.

[Michael Knowles]

My associate producer, Professor Jacob, he went to a furry convention and he said that he saw a big STD screening booth. Why do they have an STD booth?

[Nathan]

There are parties that do happen. It's better to be safe than to be sorry.

[Michael Knowles]

Would you take your head off, your fur head off? Tell the world who you really are? Or no, you want to remain anonymous as a Furry? When Macbeth could no longer make sense of the world, he said that life was a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. I think he was wrong. I think life signifies a lot. What we are seeking to understand today is a tale full of sound and furries signifying something. So I am joined. Very pleased to be joined by Nathan. Nathan, thank you for coming on the show.

[Nathan]

It's nice to be here.

[Michael Knowles]

You're a Furry.

[Nathan]

Yep.

[Michael Knowles]

We've all heard. It's hard to miss. It's hard to mistake. Yes, we've heard a lot about furries. I remember the first time I ever heard about a furry was freshman year of college. Someone mentioned it and people were making jokes about it even then. I couldn't figure out what it was. I couldn't figure out even what the joke was about the culture that they were referencing.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

How long have you been a Furry?

[Nathan]

I believe I've been a furry since maybe 2012. 2013.

[Michael Knowles]

That was right around that time. A little bit earlier, I was a freshman. Okay, so this is right when furrydom really started to hit the mainstream. What is a furry?

[Nathan]

So furry, it's kind of a blanket term to an extent. It's basically people who like anthropomorphic animals, obviously enough. And it does go from person to person. But for me, that's basically what it is. I have all these different little characters that I made myself, wrote, commissioned art for that I really do enjoy. Some of them are aspects of me, myself that I want to expand upon. But no, basically people who like anthropomorphic animals.

[Michael Knowles]

So this character, this fursona that you're in right now is named Nathan. That's not your Christian name. Who is Nathan?

[Nathan]

Nathan is kind of a shy person. I made him around the time where I was still very much an introvert. Didn't really talk to many people. My eggshell hadn't cracked and he was kind of just a reflection of me to kind of look at, like, hey, this is kind of who you are right now. But through the years, I made Nathan in 2019, I didn't make him all the way back in 20. He kind of morphed into kind of who I am as a regular person. It's more a Persona, just obviously with a bunch of fur.

[Michael Knowles]

So how has he changed and therefore, how have you changed?

[Nathan]

Well, I've become a lot more extroverted. I've put myself out there.

[Michael Knowles]

Obviously you're on this show.

[Nathan]

Obviously. Obviously enough. I've grown a lot more mature since I made Nathan.

[Michael Knowles]

You get into this in 2012?

[Nathan]

Yep.

[Michael Knowles]

How old are you then?

[Nathan]

I believe I'm not very good with ages. It's terrible. I know. I think like 13. I'm 23 right now.

[Michael Knowles]

You got into this at age 13?

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, no, you're 23 right now.

[Nathan]

Yeah, 23 turns 24.

[Michael Knowles]

So 10 years ago you would have been 13. That's 2016. So you were like eight if it were 2012.

[Nathan]

Yeah, I think that sounds about right.

[Michael Knowles]

So you were a kid, you were a little kid when you got into. How did you get into furries? How does an 8 year old even know what a furry is?

[Nathan]

Well, it started at that time. I was really into werewolves as a kid, like really into werewolves. I loved werewolves, cryptids, everything like that. And that 2012 era was when I started getting into that. And then I would say maybe when I turned 12. So a few years after that, I was given a computer as a kid and I started to do some Internet searching around that time. That's when furry started to get into a little bit of the mainstream. Not nearly as much as it is now. And it kind of evolved from there. I found different artworks of werewolves that different artists in the community made. And then I looked up those artists, and then it kind of snowballed from there.

[Michael Knowles]

So you're 12 years old, your parents give you a computer.

[Nathan]

Yep.

[Michael Knowles]

And you start searching for something. What are you searching for that leads you to the furries?

[Nathan]

Just werewolves. Like just straight up werewolf art. Werewolf anything more specifically werewolf art? Cause that leads into that whole world.

[Michael Knowles]

Does that lead to. I assume it's not just Google image searches. Does that lead to certain platforms, social media websites, some forums.

[Nathan]

I didn't really browse the forums as a kid very much, but I knew of them mostly just Google image searches, just because I was a kid.

[Michael Knowles]

Where do you learn the term furry?

[Nathan]

Well, it was when I started looking at those profiles that the people had whenever they were uploading their werewolf art and everything, But.

[Michael Knowles]

So this would be to a forum or a social media platform?

[Nathan]

Yeah, it would lead to one of those. And then from there.

[Michael Knowles]

What are the furry platforms?

[Nathan]

Well, there is a major one, Fur Affinity. It's a forum that's been running since, like, don't quote me on this. I think, like 2006, 2007, it's an old forum that was a really popular one, and it still is a popular one. People still use it, and it linked more towards that. And a lot of artists have different galleries that they post their art on and everything and snowballed from there.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, so you're 12 years old, you're looking up werewolves. You end up on fur affinity. And you say you really like this.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

What is it that you like about it? Is it just the imagination? Is the artistic aspect? What's drawing you? Is there? Hate to say it, but the furries have a reputation as being a sexual subculture. Is it like a sex thing or is it just an art thing?

[Nathan]

For me, it's an art thing. I really love the creativity. It's one of my absolute favorite things. It honestly is just seeing what someone can come up with, especially with these silly little animal characters and everything. Seeing the different designs that people can make the fur suits as well. That's my other favorite aspect of it. That's kind of been my allure ever since I actually joined the fandom.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, so you join it in around, whatever, 2012 or so, and then you really get into it over the ensuing years. Then you find the furries online. Do you know any furries in real life at this point?

[Nathan]

Not at this point, just because at around this time when I really started to get into it. 2016-2017-2018-2019. Not 2019-2016-2017-2018. Around that time, there was a really popular trend going on on YouTube where a lot of people were uploading, like, cringe compilations of furries and everything. That kind of swung the community even further into mainstream.

[Michael Knowles]

Like making fun of furries.

[Nathan]

Yes.

[Michael Knowles]

So now, were you offended by this as a furry.

[Nathan]

Some of them. No. Some of them I could agree with to an extent, but it was really just the mob that it kind of created. Because in. In my opinion, with cringeness.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

There's nothing inherently wrong with it. Like, being cringe is fine. You know, it's more. It's like a lot of people say that to be cringe is to be free. Not really worry about what anyone has to think about you. So I would.

[Michael Knowles]

To be cringe is to be lame, to be square, to be not cool. Is that right, or am I misdefining

[Nathan]

cringe to an extent. But it's mostly not to worry about, like, who really thinks about you. You know, that's what the whole free comes in with. It's like you're being who you really, truly are without any masks or anything

[Michael Knowles]

like that, but you are literally wearing a mask and being someone who you really, truly are not.

[Nathan]

That's a funny part of it.

[Michael Knowles]

I really want to explore that.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Because. Well, I guess we need to establish before you ever got into the furry thing.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

So I don't know. You were so young. I mean, I guess when you were seven instead of when you were eight. Tell me about your life. Tell me about your upbringing, school. You make this very curious point. You say, well, to be cringe is to be free. So I embraced the cringeness. That's one of the things that drew you to it. What's that look like?

[Nathan]

So as a kid, I was raised very Christian, very Mormon, and my parents were great to me, honestly. They knew about, like, when I started getting interested in it, they knew that I did have an interest in it. I just didn't really put it out that much. To an extent, I mostly kind of kept it to myself.

[Michael Knowles]

Because you were ashamed of it because you thought it was weird?

[Nathan]

Maybe a mix. Maybe a mix of both. Just because it was so new at the time for me personally, and especially going into the 2017-2018-2016-1718 time period, there was just a lot of. Just like, really, like a lot of hate towards the fandom. So I really just kind of kept it to myself to an extent.

[Michael Knowles]

What did your parents think about it at the time?

[Nathan]

Like, they. I was a little too outworldly with it. They thought it was a little weird. So they promptly shut that down to an extent. Some of the not more extreme things that I was thinking, but they promptly shut it down.

[Michael Knowles]

What do you mean, the extreme?

[Nathan]

Like actually thinking that I'm a full, like, full blown animal and wanting to like, be an actual animal and everything like that.

[Michael Knowles]

You're saying you wanted to be an actual animal?

[Nathan]

I mean, I was a. I was a kid at the time, like young, impressionable kids, so I was.

[Michael Knowles]

But you thought you did think you wanted to be an animal as a kid.

[Nathan]

Like I'm talking tiny.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nathan]

So I promptly grew past that after some teaching from my parents.

[Michael Knowles]

When they told you you're not an animal.

[Nathan]

Yeah, straight up.

[Michael Knowles]

Why did you want to be an animal? Even as a little kid?

[Nathan]

I say whimsicalness of everything. The, you know, animals don't really have to worry about much of anything. You know, I was going through like some rough stuff at this time. Parents were fighting everything like that. So kind of an escape from that to an extent.

[Michael Knowles]

Right.

[Nathan]

For me personally.

[Michael Knowles]

Right. Do you think that's a prevalent impulse within the furry community? A desire for escapism?

[Nathan]

More so escapism from like as a hobby escapism, if that makes sense.

[Michael Knowles]

Just something it's hard to have escapism as a job. It's nice work if you can get it.

[Nathan]

I would say more so just to get away from a job, like your regular hobby. That's how I feel about it.

[Michael Knowles]

So you're going through a little rough patch as a kid. Parents are fighting. This gave you an escape, not only in terms of something to do or look up online, but this hobby in particular is different from my hobby. My hobby is smoking cigars. My hobby is playing ukulele. Your hobby is a little different in that your hobby involves taking on a completely new identity.

[Nathan]

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. Literally, it's just a way to kind of step away from some responsibilities and just be free for like two or three hours. Most film a few little videos, post them online, and then promptly come back into real life.

[Michael Knowles]

So then obviously the follow up question has to be, is there something about your own true identity? Whether we're talking 10 years ago or today or any other number of furries. Is there something about one's own identity that feels uncomfortable? Issues you don't want to deal with, parts of yourself that maybe you don't like as much? That leads one to take on a totally new fursona, not just a different personality, but even a different species.

[Nathan]

Yeah, I Don't. It's a case to case thing. Just because people are obviously so different and I can't speak for everyone, but in your case. But in my case, I wouldn't really. I mean, I would say a little bit.

[Michael Knowles]

So when you say you were having a rough go with things and you didn't really like it and so you wanted to escape.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

And in this case in the furry fandom, you were escaping not just to a little hobby for a bit, but into a totally new identity, that would seem to imply that when one has that impulse, it's because there's a part of your true identity, or multiple parts of your true identity that you're uncomfortable with, that you don't like as much, that you haven't quite worked out.

[Nathan]

Not really for me personally, it really is just going into a whole different world outside of the real one.

[Michael Knowles]

But I guess the question is, why would you want to do that? Meaning, I like the real world. The real world's tough. There are problems, people go through, bad times. But I really like the real world. I don't want to go to a different planet. People say, we could go take over Mars. I don't want to go to Mars. I like Earth. Some people want to leave their families, they want to leave their country, but I really like the real world. I enjoy living as myself. So if someone's going to live even for a couple hours a day as someone else, that would seem to imply they don't like the real world as much. Am I wrong in that conclusion?

[Nathan]

I mean, to an extent, responsibilities are tough, uh, work is hard, you know, uh, it's tough to get the day to day, the day, day by day, you know. So I would say just a little bit, but not in the sense of I don't like myself because in very recent years I've become very comfortable with myself, improving upon my health, everything like that. It's been pretty good. It's. This is just something that I do.

[Michael Knowles]

So then previously, before you improved your health or felt more comfortable, obviously previously then you were less healthy or less comfortable with yourself. So when did that change happen? How far into the furrydom did that occur?

[Nathan]

Well.

[Michael Knowles]

And in what ways were you uncomfortable, if you don't mind my asking?

[Nathan]

Yeah, of course there was a period of time, kind of as a kid, where I just didn't really feel right, like I didn't fit in, cause I was shy, didn't have a lot of friends, everything like that. So being a shy little kid, I really like writing. So finding out like furries and everything, and that I can make these anthropomorphic characters like on paper. Started making stories and everything like that, some small short stories, making personalities for my characters and then kind of expanding upon that. That's. So that was kind of my little form of escapism when, when it comes to furries, at least when I started. This is only reason I only got this thing last year.

[Michael Knowles]

Like the furry.

[Nathan]

The fursuit. Yes, the fursuit, yes.

[Michael Knowles]

So how can you be a furry without a fursuit?

[Nathan]

It's easy. Like anthropomorphic characters and you have fursona. That's. That's a pretty. That's a pretty simple way to become a furry.

[Michael Knowles]

But isn't the fursona like for my. For my Persona? Yeah, some of it is immaterial. It's my joys, my desires, whatever. But then part of it's material, part of my Persona is I'm a moderately sized Italian looking guy from New York, middle of my 30s. Part of my Persona is physical, is what I'm saying. And so if the fursona is even more physical because it involves these fantastical visual images and these characters that you make on paper, then how can you have the fursona without the physical part of it? If you show up to the furry convention, how do you do it without the fursuit?

[Nathan]

Well, I can actually show you a little bit. This is a badge that I had made and this is actually my fursona. So what a lot of people do is a lot of people will make art of their characters. So obviously I've had art commissioned of Nathan. Maybe a little too much, A little bit too much money. But, you know, that's kind of what people will do is how much have

[Michael Knowles]

you spent on, on the art and the costume? How much money would you estimate you've spent on being a furry?

[Nathan]

It is an expensive hobby. I will put that forward.

[Michael Knowles]

Could you estimate the number or.

[Nathan]

Well, art. I'll try to estimate it a little bit. I'm going to take these off. I would say I've probably spent like $500 over the span of it because.

[Michael Knowles]

Commissioning art.

[Nathan]

Yeah, commissioning art pretty much recently, this guy. Fursuits are expensive. I will put that forward. They are. They are literal walking works of art. That's, that's how a lot of people see it.

[Michael Knowles]

How much do they cost?

[Nathan]

Well, it kind of depends. New makers, like super new makers. I'm talking like amateurs. You could probably get one for like $500 and it would just be the, the head, hand paws and Then a tail.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Nathan]

There are different categories to fursuits when it comes to it. So I'm wearing a full partial. That's arm sleeves, hand paws, feet, paws, and a tail. They, on the higher side average like $4,500. And on the lower side, which is what I was. Because I got mine from a newer maker, like 1600, 1700, which is a good.

[Michael Knowles]

A lot of money.

[Nathan]

It's a lot of money, but it is, in the grand scheme of fursuits, it's really. It's a really good price, actually.

[Michael Knowles]

So you're saying the highest they go is the 4,500 bucks?

[Nathan]

Not that high. I would say the highest that I have seen is a fursuit. It wasn't. I. I think it was pre made. I'm not sure. But a lot of artists, what they'll do is they'll do auctions for their different either artworks or fursuits. I think I saw one auction for like $2,500. Like $25,000.

[Michael Knowles]

$25,000.

[Nathan]

Yeah. A lot of money. Lots of money.

[Michael Knowles]

That's. That's for the Gucci fursuit.

[Nathan]

Yes.

[Michael Knowles]

That's got to be for the top of the line, Savile Row fursuit.

[Nathan]

They've been part of the fandom since, like 2008, minimum.

[Michael Knowles]

You keep calling it a fandom.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

And I think I'm a Yankee fan. I was watching the Yankees last night, and you know what I've had? When I was a kid, I had Yankee jerseys. I don't anymore. I have a bunch of Yankee hats. So there's a little part of it. But I don't.

[Nathan]

I don't.

[Michael Knowles]

I don't wear the whole uniform and swing a bat.

[Nathan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

But it seems to me when you say you're a fan of something, it seems like what the furries do is more involved than just being a fan.

[Nathan]

Yeah. It. That furry fandom is just what it's been known for a long time, and that's kind of just how everyone refers to it as. It is a little more intensive just because there is that person, that personability to it. Like, you might be a Yankees fan, but you're not actually out there swinging. You're not.

[Michael Knowles]

They never called me up.

[Nathan]

But in the, in the furry fandom, you're. This is your character, and you have other people that also have other characters and that also like other anthropomorphic characters that you might also like. So it's just kind of a melting pot of a whole bunch of different personalities. It really, like, you See all walks of life at the conventions. It is. It expands your world. It's crazy.

[Michael Knowles]

Why the nose ring?

[Nathan]

I just kind of. I thought it would add a little bit of character to it because his eyes are blue. So you have the blue nose ring. So it kind of makes his nose stand out.

[Michael Knowles]

It does. I have a theory. I did a deep investigation on it.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

That all women, all young women who have the nose ring in the middle, the bull nose ring, are not in a good place. The little side nose ring for girls is sometimes okay, but the bull one, I find the girls have problems, but in this case, you're an animal. So it's like the bull of makes sense on an animal.

[Nathan]

So.

[Michael Knowles]

All right, I'll leave it as a. I agree. It does work. It plays very well with the eyes. Why did so many furries turn us down? Not to be disrespectful, but you were not the first Furry we asked. For the past year or so, we've been trying to get a furry to come sit down and explain furriness to us. And furry after furry after rejected us.

[Nathan]

Why? I won't assume what that person might be thinking at that time. Everything going through the head and everything. It might be just because the date, like Daily Wire as an example, is such a right leaning organization that I think that might have just been a turn off. Just in general, because like you mentioned, and I am, most furries are left wing. Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Is a fact. Yeah. There are not. I don't think there's a single Furry in President Trump's cabinet, but maybe we wouldn't know if there were, who would be the most likely to. I don't know. Marco Rubio has all sorts of roles in the admin, but I don't think he's a Furry who wore the Easter Bunny outfit. Well, questions that I will think about after our interview. We'll get back to hearing more about that furry in a moment. But first, if you're enjoying this, do not let it end with this conversation. Tune in to the Michael Knowles show every weekday, Monday through Friday. Stay informed daily on the most pressing political and cultural stories. Listen on Apple podcasts, watch on YouTube or get the best of both worlds on Spotify, where you can watch, listen, even jump into the comments. I will see you there. Now let's get back to hearing what happens at the furry convention. When my associate producer, Professor Jacob, was going around to try to get a furry to sit down for this interview, he went to a furry convention and he said that he saw a big STD screening booth right there in the convention hall. Now, when I go to conventions, the Republican convention, which, I don't know, maybe it should have, when I go to a music convention or a cigar convention, there are no STD screening booths. Why do the furries, at least at whatever convention Professor Jacob was at, why do they have an STD booth?

[Nathan]

There are parties that do happen. They're called room parties, and they do tend, mind you, tend to get sexual. Tend to. Not all of them are okay, but some of them do tend. So it's better to be safe than to be sorry.

[Michael Knowles]

And the room party is just in someone's hotel room at the convention.

[Nathan]

Yeah, most of the time. Or Airbnbs.

[Michael Knowles]

So imagine. Imagine you go to the STD booth. You show up, you're in your furry costume. You go to the STD booth, they draw your blood, they tell you no syphilis, you got a clean bill of health. You say, all right, you pay for your STD test, and then you go. You score the invite to the room party. You go there, and as you say, you say many, but not all. And you say, just my luck. I already got the VD test and I show up to the furry room party, and I'm at the one that doesn't turn into an orgy.

[Nathan]

Could you imagine there's a party like that? I'll be 100%. The third year that we went to Anthrocon, there was a room party, and it wasn't sexual in the slightest.

[Michael Knowles]

Good, I'm glad to hear that.

[Nathan]

There are a lot of parties that are like that.

[Michael Knowles]

Good. I like that. You mentioned you were pretty shy as a kid.

[Nathan]

Yep.

[Michael Knowles]

Like you said, you were a writer. Like a lot of writers. A little shy, a little bit of a loner. And so I was wondering, in preparation for this interview, I was thinking, what would I get out of being a furry? If I were a furry, what would I like about that? And we'll address or bring up some of the rumors and sort of story questions about it in a moment. But just on the most wholesome version of it, I thought, well, you know, if I were really shy, I've read somewhere that among the furry community, they're sort of disproportionately on the autism spectrum. There's a little bit of that. If I were quite shy, I'd love the furry thing. Not because I like an. I actually don't really care for animals at all. I'm more of a people person. But if I were shy, I'd like it because there's. I'm anonymous.

[Nathan]

Yeah. The anonymity. That's also why I like it.

[Michael Knowles]

No one can really judge you if you're anonymous because they don't know who you are.

[Nathan]

All they see is Nathan. They don't see the guy under the mask. That's another big reason as to why a lot of people love fursuiting in general is just because you don't have to worry about how people see you as a person. They just see you as your whimsical little animal character walking around the convention.

[Michael Knowles]

You don't have to worry about being judged.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

So this, I guess, then sort of affirms my suspicion that a lot of furrydom comes from a place of discomfort with Bun's Persona. Then I was trying to think about it, just trying to relate to it in a way, and I thought, well, okay, well, you know where I love anonymity? I'm Catholic. I like it in the confessional. Some of the modern confessionals, they want you to sit face to face with the priest. I don't want that. I want to go into a box with a screen, get on my knees, confess all my black and evil and horrible sins, and then have the priest say, I absolve you of your sins as God's representative. So I say, I like anonymity for that reason. I think that's using anonymity for a good purpose, namely to get right with God, to receive God's grace. But anonymity in popular culture is more often seen as conducive to vice, the. The Ring of Power and the Lord of the Rings, or this idea that if I were invisible or I could get up to all sorts of no good, I could steal. I could, I don't know, look at the lady in the shower. I could do whatever I want. No one would know it's me. In other words, I wouldn't be held accountable for my sins. Which side of the anonymity do you see in furrydom?

[Nathan]

A lot of people actually do get held accountable for what they do. It is very surprising.

[Michael Knowles]

What do they do?

[Nathan]

Well, there are, as in any fandom anywhere, there are unsavory characters, especially with such a wide umbrella of. I like anthropomorphic animals. You get all walks of life, like I mentioned, and there are, unfortunately, people who do bad things. But what do they do mostly? Like, some people don't have a personal space, and it's. A lot of people think that just because I'm wearing an animal costume, that just means you can do whatever you Want you have full consent. There are, unfortunately, people that have that mindset, and that's even in. That's more of like a cosplaying thing. So people who even dress up as characters that aren't anthropomorphic animals. Unfortunately, a lot of people have that mindset of.

[Michael Knowles]

But we're still dancing around it a little bit. You say, well, you know, they do bad things for which they can be held accountable. And you say, well, what are the things they do? And you say, well, you know, they just. They don't have personal space, so they feel like they can do whatever they want to do. But I guess not to be lurid or sensational about it. Yeah, it's a bit of a sensational conversation. But what are we talking about? What are the bad things that go on at the furry convention?

[Nathan]

Well, there isn't a lot I will say. Obviously, you're gonna have that person who is very antisocial and touches up on someone. I'm gonna be straight up, like, that does.

[Michael Knowles]

Goes and gropes a puppy or something, like a human pup, like a fur.

[Nathan]

A person. Yes, that. It is a very unfortunate thing that does happen, but people catch on to that, like, quick. It is there. People get banned, like, almost instantaneously when stuff like that happens. And it is, unfortunately, a problem, but it's addressed pretty much instantly. It's just people do unfortunately have that mindset of you're wearing an animal costume, so that must mean that I can do whatever I can do what I want, you know? Right. It's an unfortunate thing.

[Michael Knowles]

It really is that you're anonymous. Yeah, it's funny. One. One thing that happened when I got my show and I had a little bit of a public profile. One thing that I. And it's nice. You know, some people come up on the street, they say, hey, I like the show, or whatever. That's. That's real nice. But then I said, well, hold on now. I can never be rude to a waiter. I'm never rude to waiters. But I say, even if I wanted to be rude to a waiter, I can't be, because there's a chance that someone sitting at the other table is gonna know me from the show, and then I'm gonna get a bad reputation. So even if I wanted to do something bad, I really can't do it in public. And you're now in the age of mass surveillance and constant interconnectedness. We're kind of always public. And so I said, so now I really gotta watch myself, because I'm to whatever degree I am a public figure. And then I said, oh, that's too bad. And then I thought, wait a second, that's not too bad. That's actually a good thing. I say I'm really glad that I have a little bit of a public profile because that actually impels me to behave better because I shouldn't be rude to the waiter and I shouldn't do something I ought not to do. And so actually, oh, that's kind of a good thing. I actually don't really want to be anonymous almost ever. If the anonymity is breeding some kind of bad stuff. And the anonymity for the furry community is ubiquitous, is that a. Is that a moral hazard of the furry fandom?

[Nathan]

Personally, I just don't think so. Just because the furry suits are so like in your face, you know, like, so identifiable. Yes, identifiable. Almost every character is gonna be unique and people are gonna recognize the little stuff about your suit and be able to point you out.

[Michael Knowles]

But you could just get a new suit.

[Nathan]

Some people do do that.

[Michael Knowles]

You gotta be rich, I guess. The suits are expensive.

[Nathan]

Yeah, you do have to rich.

[Michael Knowles]

But you could get a new suit.

[Nathan]

You could.

[Michael Knowles]

It's like in a video game, you start over. But in life, in regular life, you don't get to start over.

[Nathan]

Exactly. People have unfortunately done that in the past, but they get very, very quickly found out who they were. It's actually kind of surprising.

[Michael Knowles]

So when people in the furry world do non consensual sex stuff, they get zapped, they're out, they're out of the convention. But what about the consensual part? I think most people view furries as a kind of paraphilia or sexual fetish, fairly or unfairly. And then I googled it a little bit, groked it. I said, is this true? And there are some weird sexual stats on it from what I could see. I don't know how reliable the surveys are. It's quite gay in as much as only. I think it's only 10% of self identified furries identify as straight or heterosexual. And the rest of them, it's not that they all identify as gay, but they all identify or 90% of them identify as bisexual or pansexual or other sexual or gay or lesbian or whatever. So it is compared to the general population, overwhelmingly lgbt. Are those stats correct?

[Nathan]

Yeah, those stats are actually from. There's a actual research group in the furry fandom itself at Anthrocon, largest furry convention in the world. That's the one that I go To a lot of the time, they host surveys. They'll have little pamphlets that people can fill out. They have a QR code. So these are actual statistics. So that is very, very true. Yes.

[Michael Knowles]

Why is that? If this were just, as you said earlier, it's not really a sex thing. It's more about the art for me personally. For you personally. Okay, fair enough. So for furrydom as an interesting. If it were just about the art, you would expect the. I mean, I guess artists are a little light in the loafer sometimes, but you would expect the sexual identity aspect to basically match the general population. In this case, it's as far away from the general population number as it's possible to be. So it would seem that the sexual identity is a big part of it, which I think lends some credence to the popular view that this is largely a paraphilia or a sexual fetish.

[Nathan]

I will say that it is prevalent. It is like just straight up. But it's not, as I would say, trying to find a good way to explain this, because you're not wrong. The convention does not. The convention. Oh, my God.

[Michael Knowles]

The conference or whatever.

[Nathan]

Yeah, the fandom does have roots in that aspect. It. It does. One, one of the primary aspects that a lot of people point the furry fandom towards is. I don't know if you'll recognize this name, Fritz the Cat, A comic strip from, like the 70s. Oh, yes.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, vaguely. Vaguely, vaguely.

[Nathan]

That's what a lot of people also point towards as what kind of that whole era. 70s, 80s, the comic strip era, Garfield first, the cat, everything like that. That's what a lot of people attribute towards free furry ness kind of getting popular. And then you had the Internet in the 80s and then forums in the 90s, so people who like that stuff, got together, talked about it and everything like that. So there is definitely roots in it and it is prevalent, but it's not to a point to where it's everything.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, the connection I'm having trouble making is, okay, sure. There are these comic strips that people like Garfield or whatever. And. And since I'm a conservative, maybe I'd have to go back further. If I were a furry, I'd have to be like Flip the Frog, maybe Mickey Mouse, maybe. But okay, so they like these comic strips and you say, so therefore it has the roots in this kind of sexual community. But I say, well, hold on. What's the connection between Garfield or Fritz and a sex thing?

[Nathan]

Well, Fritz the Cat was an adult comic strip.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, really? Oh, okay. All right. You can see my ignorance of Fritz.

[Nathan]

Okay, you're good. It was. I think it's Fritz or Felix. I don't remember.

[Michael Knowles]

Felix. Yeah. Felix wasn't a. I don't remember. Was he sexual? I don't think he was.

[Nathan]

I don't. I don't remember what it was. It was either that or like a movie. I don't remember. It's an old one, though. But.

[Michael Knowles]

No, no, that's fine. That's the connection I'm trying to figure out.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Because one of the big questions that people have of furries is not, you know, we're in mixed company on the Internet, obviously, but do these people want to do weird stuff with animals? No.

[Nathan]

Straight up, no.

[Michael Knowles]

But they might want to do weird stuff with guys dressed up as animals.

[Nathan]

Maybe, but the connection stops at animals.

[Michael Knowles]

But the one commonality is we got animals in both of them. And in fact, the defining feature of the furry as a furry is that he looks like an animal. So, like, for me, I'm a married man.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Three and a half children, one on the way. And so I don't go out to bars, I don't go picking up singles. But if I wanted to go find a nice lady, if I were single, God forbid, I'd say, well, you know, I like a girl that looks kind of like this, has this color hair. I'm going, this is. That's what kind of attracts me. And I'm gonna look around the bar and I'm gonna find that chick. But if you're a furry and you wanna, you know, go find a fellow furry, necessarily, the thing that would attract you to that furry is the animal Persona. So you. I don't think it's a totally unfair leap to take that someone who is attracted to people dressed up like animals might have a thing for animals.

[Nathan]

It's not an unfair assumption, but widely it's not the case.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Nathan]

People are inherently attracted to the human side. That's exactly how it is. Personality is everything like that.

[Michael Knowles]

The anthropomorphic side of the anthropomorphic animal.

[Nathan]

Yeah. Not the actual animal itself, if that makes sense.

[Michael Knowles]

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[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Were you a mascot? No. No.

[Nathan]

No. Too introverted.

[Michael Knowles]

You were too introverted to be a mascot. I wondered if being a mascot was kind of a gateway into freedom.

[Nathan]

I would probably say so. People like different. Like baseball mascots and everything. I would say maybe.

[Michael Knowles]

Huh. But you were too shy, too introverted. So you had these friends on the Internet?

[Nathan]

Yep.

[Michael Knowles]

You then meet them at the conventions. What do you do? I think I was. I was at a political event once in Washington, D.C. i was speaking and it was at a conference hotel.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

And as I'm leaving, I think a furry convention was coming in. And so I was going to get my car, but I saw it. I said, I think this is a furry convention. What happens at the furry convention? Break it down. You arrive in the morning, hour by hour. What do you do at a furry convention?

[Nathan]

Well, I will base mine off of Anthrocon.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Nathan]

Just because that is the one I'm most familiar with. I have gone to some smaller conventions, but as soon as you get to the. And Anthrocon happens in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. It's been happening there since 2000, like 8, 2009. It's a long standing convention. That's why it's the biggest one. When you arrive at the David O. Lawrence Convention center, you're in a line for the. I think the worst it was for me was like two hours. It's bad.

[Michael Knowles]

Two hours to get in.

[Nathan]

Yeah. Two hours to get in. Two hours to get registered.

[Michael Knowles]

How many people are at this convention?

[Nathan]

Well, this one last year, I went last year 18,700. So, yeah, a lot.

[Michael Knowles]

That's a lot of furries.

[Nathan]

A lot of people, yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

How many furries are there?

[Nathan]

You can't. Can't put a number on it. You just can't. It's such a wide. It's just such a wide term,

[Michael Knowles]

huh?

[Nathan]

It's a very large convention. And you've got Anthrocon 18700FWA, which is one that happens in Atlanta for a week. In Atlanta, I think 17,700, maybe 17,500.

[Michael Knowles]

Now, is it duplicates or people going to multiple conferences?

[Nathan]

People go to multiple conventions. But it. It also is region, region wise, obviously. Pittsburgh Eastern, FWA Southern.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Nathan]

And then there's another one. Mff Midwest Fur Fest. Happens up in Rosemont, Illinois. So then you have Midwesterners going to that one because it's just right outside of Chicago.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, and what do you do? Well, wait in line to get in line.

[Nathan]

Yep. And then what I like to do, just because it is base to base, I like to walk around and look at the different fursuits just because I love them. They're. They're so uniquely creative to that person. Like, you get all. All different types of animals. And in some cases, which I love the most, you can get, like, insects. And I think this is. This is so funny. There are two fur suits that I know of. One is a cone, like a traffic cone, and then another one is a spray bottle. It is. It's crazy.

[Michael Knowles]

But now that's not an animal.

[Nathan]

It's not an animal. No. And that's what I love about it.

[Michael Knowles]

And neither of them are furry.

[Nathan]

They're like.

[Michael Knowles]

Literally, they don't have hair.

[Nathan]

But it's a fursuit. They have a fursuit body and everything, and it's molded with, like, foam and everything. It's crazy.

[Michael Knowles]

That's a degree of decadence that I can't even quite fathom that you go to the conference specifically for the people to dress up like anthropomorphic animals. But then you do something that's even sort of beyond that.

[Nathan]

That's what I love about it. It's just so out of left field, and these people make it themselves, and I love that about it. I really do.

[Michael Knowles]

So you like to go around and look at the different fursuits because you say they are so tailored to the

[Nathan]

individual person in a lot of different ways. They are very representative of.

[Michael Knowles]

So then it seems to me what you're saying is what you're interested in is not so much the fabric or the hair or the colors, but you're interested in the person who made it.

[Nathan]

Yeah. The designs, the animal that they decided to choose. And some. If I was.

[Michael Knowles]

But my question specifically is when you say they're so tailored to the person, that's what interests me. I guess I'm asking, are you more interested in the costume or the costume as a conduit to the person?

[Nathan]

Conduit to the person.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Nathan]

Just. Just because it's like, why did this person choose this animal? Why did they choose these specific colors? And what made them decide to go with whatever they decided to do that. And that can lead on to so many different conversations with this person. And that's. That's what I love about it. Like, I wish I was a little less introverted when it came to talking to people in fursuit. I'm terrible with it. I don't know why. Kind of a dark.

[Michael Knowles]

You mean you're too introverted when you yourself are wearing the fursuit or when you meet someone else who is wearing the fursuit?

[Nathan]

When I'm both ways. When I meet someone that's wearing a fursuit that I love, sometimes I won't even go and take a picture with them, even though I want to take a picture. It's just how I am as a person.

[Michael Knowles]

Why do you think that is?

[Nathan]

I'm unsure. It's just kind of that anomaly about me. It's so funny, huh?

[Michael Knowles]

The obvious answer. I'm not a psychologist. Yeah, but the obvious answer would be that you're a little insecure, I would say so. That's gotta be it.

[Nathan]

That's gotta be it.

[Michael Knowles]

And as we've already discussed, part of dressing up like the furry is to overcome that to some degree with anonymity and a kind of necessary and performed outlandishness and extroversion. So I guess what's curious to me is if you've controlled for all of these aspects to overcome your shyness and your insecurity, why are you still shy? Yeah. I mean, of anywhere you're gonna be. If I'm dressed up like a werewolf with big giant eyes and a big smile and I go see the kangaroo costume that I really like, I surely in that environment, if nowhere else, I'm gonna go up and pat him on the back.

[Nathan]

Something I gotta work on. It's really just an anomaly of myself. It's something that I've been trying to work on, especially since I started posting my fursuit and everything. I've tried to overcome that gap and I've been. I've been making strides. I'm excited for anthrocon this year just because I do plan on trying to get as many pictures with the creators that I love and try to get pictures of people that maybe know me. Something I'm trying to work on.

[Michael Knowles]

Because you're a creator now, too. You're a. This is a weird thing about new media is you're a fan of these other people, but if you're posting these pictures on these fora and social media platforms, then some people might be fans of you.

[Nathan]

Yeah. Just how it works.

[Michael Knowles]

So everybody's a celebrity sometimes.

[Nathan]

I would say that's a pretty interesting way of looking at it. Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

So when you say that, what you like about the costumes, when you get, you know, it's 10:00am at the conference.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

What you like about them is they tell you something about the person and that can lead to great conversations with the person.

[Nathan]

Yes.

[Michael Knowles]

I say this is making a lot of sense to me because that means that the fursuit is an icebreaker for

[Nathan]

a lot of people. Exactly.

[Michael Knowles]

It's an easy way because I think I love conversations. I like conversations with my wife. When I was single, I liked going on dates with girls because I find girls interesting. And I like. This is probably the most missing piece in our modern culture. I really like conversations with my friends, my male friends. Over a cigar especially is great. But I really like that. I say, oh, yes, you know, you made this point the other day. So. And so. And I was reading a book and it made me think of this. And, you know, Aristotle defines friendship in a few different ways, but some friendships are just of utility. You try to network with each other and help each other out. Some are friendships of pleasure. Like you share a common love of cigars or anthropomorphic suits.

[Nathan]

Yep.

[Michael Knowles]

And then some are friendships of the good, which is where you are both. You're both trained in virtue and you're disciplined and you're contemplating a good together. And Aristotle says this is the highest form of virtue. And so what's curious about your discussion of seeing the suits to learn about the person is, I'm wondering, is furrydom the friendship of pleasure? You just get a thrill out of fur? Or is furrydom closer to a friendship of the good, where the suit and the characters are Just an instrument to get to know another human being, to think about higher things.

[Nathan]

For a lot of people, it can just be for the fact that, oh, we both like the fur. We both like fur. We both like fur.

[Michael Knowles]

For most people, it's about the fur.

[Nathan]

For some, for, I would say sometimes most. But there are people, I would like to say that I would like to be that person that wants to have the fur suit be a conduit to learn about that person. Because as much as I say that I'm introverted, as much as I say that it's hard for me to walk up to people and talk to them about their fursuit, I really do want that connection, to learn about that person, to see what makes them drive and everything. So I do want to do that. It's just for some reason, it's hard. It's hard, yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

It's hard. Yeah. Because if that's what you're after, if that's what, say, some large number of furries are after, there are other ways to do it. Yes, I agree, men, we're not very touchy feely, nor should we be. But I keep mentioning the cigar in part because I have my cigar company logo on the other wall. Because for men, we don't just say, hey, we're gonna talk on the phone tonight, or hey, let's go sit in a park and have a conversation. It's a little weird, but a man will say, hey, let's go get a drink after work.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

And you don't. It's not really about the drink. It's not about the booze. It's about the conversation and the connection and the friendship. Same thing with a cigar. Same thing with whatever. And so I guess if that's what you're after, do you really need the fursuit to do it?

[Nathan]

Not necessarily. It's just for a lot of people. And even though I have said it for a lot of people, it is easier with the suit just because you can make that connection with them. You can ask them about their sona, go on and on and on, and then go past the sona and then start talking with them, you know, as them, you know?

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. Yeah. I wonder too, if at least what I had read, you can confirm or deny this, that there's more than a little touch of the tism in the furry community. You know, there's an autism spectrum there.

[Nathan]

There are neurodivergent people.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes. And so I think, look, I run in right wing political circles that are very focused on political philosophy. I attend the Traditional liturgy of the Mass. All to say, there's a little touch of the tism in the communities that I run in as well, and sometimes a little social awkwardness or something like that. And so I wonder if with the fursuits, a problem that people who are somewhere on the spectrum sometimes have is that they don't pick up on subtlety. Subtle social cues kind of elude them. It's just part of how it goes. And there's nothing subtle about the fursuit. It's all so obvious. It's like a walking billboard that says, I'm goofy or I'm somber or I'm whatever. I like this animal. And that symbolizes something, or I like this animal, it symbolizes something else. Is that it? Is it the fact that it's so blunt, so obvious, that is appealing as a way to make a connection?

[Nathan]

I would say so, yeah. Just, you know. Sorry. Yeah. No, I would say so just because it's like, well, there's someone dressed up as a wolf chasing someone else who's dressed up as, let's say, like a fox. Why don't I join in with them, too? Why not? You know? And you don't have to worry about, especially in a setting as a convention or a meet or anything like that, you don't really have to worry too much about other people saying, hey, that's a little weird.

[Michael Knowles]

Little weird.

[Nathan]

But it's like this entire convention's a little weird. You know, we're all dressed up as. We're all dressed up as animals.

[Michael Knowles]

Right. This makes me think then of some friends of mine who don't have kids, who like to go to Disney World. Now, I don't want to go to Disney World, even with my kids, but some of them, they like to do it. They like to play. They like to do the stuff the kids do, but they don't have kids. And when you do the stuff the kids do without kids, if you can't have kids, I don't know, maybe you have a niece or a nephew, you know, I don't know, family friend or something. There are excuses to go to Disney World if you want to. But when you do the kids stuff and you're not a kid and you don't have kids, it's kind of weird. But something that I've discovered having now multiple children is when you have little kids, you get to do all the kids stuff, which is really fun a lot of the time, like rolling around and, like, racing around the house, playing ball or whatever. And you get to do all of that, but it's not weird anymore. And I wonder. You just brought up this example of, you know, sometimes look beyond making a human connection, having a conversation, making a new friend. Yeah, sometimes I just want to run around. I want to run around and chase people, and it's kind of fun. But I wonder, is there a way to do that in a way that is not infantilizing to a grown person, which people view as weird, but in a way where you say, well, maybe I'll get married and have some kids, and then I get to chase my kids around the house?

[Nathan]

Trying to think of a good answer to that? Because that is a very good question. I would say for. Rephrase that one more time, I apologize.

[Michael Knowles]

You want to do the fun kid stuff.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

But it's weird when an adult does kid stuff with other adults. So have you thought, well, maybe I'll channel that desire and do it in a way that is more appropriate? Meaning if you want to go run around and chase people and be goofy, you can get married and have some kids, and then you can do it all day long. And then it's not weird. Then it doesn't incur the kind of social opprobrium that it does when adults do childish things?

[Nathan]

Well, for me, it's in the sense of when people in the fandom do it, it's as long, obviously. As long as you're not, like, going around chasing random people, that's frowned upon. Yeah, obviously. As long as it's two people that agree to, you know, play around, have fun in, like, a convention center, there's no really issue to it, but.

[Michael Knowles]

No, but people think it's weird. I guess that's my point. I'm not saying it's a crime.

[Nathan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

But I'm saying people think it's a little weird inherently. A millennial who doesn't want kids is free to go to Disney World, but it's kind of weird, in my humble opinion. And so if we acknowledge that there are activities, behaviors that seem to be more appropriate for people at different ages, is it, I guess, at a very basic level, does it bother you that people think that that kind of behavior is not really age appropriate, that you ought to grow up, basically?

[Nathan]

I don't think. I don't think so. It doesn't bother me very much.

[Michael Knowles]

No, no. Do you think your life. You mentioned you still have these problems? You're still a little shy?

[Nathan]

Yeah, I'm working on stuff.

[Michael Knowles]

You're working on it. And you say in some ways the furry thing has helped you to overcome that. But you still have all these problems.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Do you think your life would be better that you maybe would flourish more if you were not a furry?

[Nathan]

Honestly, with all of the. Sorry, give me a second. With the people that I have met and the conversations that I have had, I honestly don't think I'd be sitting here in front of you.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, you certainly wouldn't in an interview of a furry. Obviously, that's true. You might be talking about the business you started.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

You might be talking about the sports thing that you won. I don't know what you'd be talking about. You might be talking about the crime you committed. I don't know. You might be doing something else.

[Nathan]

Who knows?

[Michael Knowles]

But you're right. You wouldn't be here as a furry. Yeah, but that doesn't answer my question.

[Nathan]

Yeah, I meant more as a person. Just because there have been people who have touched my life in a very positive way again. In the furry community, you can find people that do have the same struggles as you, and you can relate to that person as a person. Yeah, you guys have whimsical animal characters and everything like that, but you can make genuine connections. And if I wasn't a furry and I wasn't able to make those connections, you know, I don't think I'd be here. Just they have.

[Michael Knowles]

What do you mean you wouldn't be here?

[Nathan]

Well, I'd probably be dead.

[Michael Knowles]

You think you would be dead?

[Nathan]

I think so.

[Michael Knowles]

Because you were lonely.

[Nathan]

Lonely, Shy. Kind of kept to myself. And I had people be nice to me to have conversations about my characters, want to get to know me, learn about me after talking to them about my characters. It's been very profound. And that is why I have. And I'm sure, as you've noticed, I have such a love for this community. I really do. Just because it basically has saved my life. Just the. The people, like, dude, no, there are some fantastic people in this community. I'm. I'm telling you. I'm telling you, it outweighs everything you've ever heard. A good example is the, like, the charity outreach that a lot of the fandom does is insane. It, like, there are very well mannered and righteous people. It, like, it. It.

[Michael Knowles]

Charity, meaning like, like set up like free hospitals. You're saying charity, like just personal.

[Nathan]

Raising money towards different things. One of my.

[Michael Knowles]

What do they raise money for?

[Nathan]

They donate it themselves.

[Michael Knowles]

No, but I'm saying, what are the causes?

[Nathan]

Sorry. One big cause that I really liked was last year's I think it was last year's. Last year's anthrocon. They. Every convention, they tend to have a charity outreach that they do. Last year was gray, I think gray muzzles or gray paws. But it was a kennel that housed primarily elderly dogs, dogs that are. Might not be desirable and everything. And they made it to where, during the last years of their lives, they could live peacefully until they, you know, they died.

[Michael Knowles]

Are they usually animal charities?

[Nathan]

To an extent.

[Michael Knowles]

I would.

[Nathan]

I would guess there have been hospitals, though, like St. Jude's everything. Yeah, yeah, there have been hospitals, but last year's was an animal one like that. And

[Michael Knowles]

I'm less concerned with the neglected puppies and more or the elderly dogs and more concerned with the neglected people, because what you said starts to change my view of things. Yeah, you said. Initially, you said, oh, you know, I was a little lonely, you know, a little shy, but I've overcome that. I've been working on that.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Then you tell me, had you not found furrydom, you might have killed yourself, most likely. Why go into that a little bit? That's a little more than just being a bit shy.

[Nathan]

There were some issues, like I had mentioned, some. My parents did eventually end up getting divorced.

[Michael Knowles]

Sorry to hear that.

[Nathan]

And then I think what the catalyst for that was is my granddad, who I was very close to, had passed from leukemia, and it was just a slippery snowfall for everyone. Everyone was down, and it was a really, really rough, rough period. Rough, rough period of time. I had spoken to different people with it. Both people that I know that aren't in the fandom and then people that I know that were in the fandom, and they really did help me with that grieving process, both with the divorce and with my grandpa's passing. So it was just a lot at once for.

[Michael Knowles]

How old were you when this happened?

[Nathan]

I think I was, like, 15, 16.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. Not a good age for parents.

[Nathan]

Not a good age for all that.

[Michael Knowles]

No age is good for that, but. And that can happen, you know, patriarch or matriarch of a family dies and kind of everything starts to unravel. So that was it. You would say, because of the death of your grandfather and the divorce of your parents, you were suicidal because of that, or was there something else?

[Nathan]

That was precisely it. It was just a lot. All at once, those ideations started to kick in. But luckily I was quickly reeled in from that and realized that. Little bit of an extreme to jump that far, sure.

[Michael Knowles]

But plenty of teenagers think about that stuff, and, you know, it's an amazing rejoinder to people who say, look at how weird our culture is. We have people putting on fur suits and jumping around like puppies. And I say, that is weird. But you know what's weirder is a culture that normalizes and encourages divorce. You know what's weirder is a culture that is increasingly atomized, A culture that loses any sense of moral standards. A culture that can't make sense of suffering because it has no idea of sanctity and grace and doesn't even really consider man's eternal end, for which all that really matters is consent and individual autonomy. To me, that's a much weirder culture and probably the cause of the culture of guys jumping around in dog costumes. If you want to. Do you want to get married someday?

[Nathan]

I'd say so, yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

And, you know, you want to have friends and community and all this. On the one hand, the furry stuff provides you this very niche friend group, but it also kind of isolates you from the more mainstream society. So would you say you're more or less likely to get married, have a family, have a thriving community, have whatever kind of good life you imagine. Being a furry or not being a furry?

[Nathan]

I would say equal for both. Just because furry for me is, like I mentioned at the beginning, it's simply a hobby. It's a little more of an eccentric hobby, of course, but it's purely a hobby. It can coincide alongside that. There are plenty of people that do have families and kids.

[Michael Knowles]

But I'll tell you what, if I had a hobby which was collecting My Little Pony dolls, and that were my hobby, and I were single and I start dating a girl, and I mentioned to her, I say, by the way, I haven't mentioned this yet. I have this hobby, which is I collect My Little Pony dolls. I have 750 of them. That girl, I probably wouldn't get another date. That girl would think that's really weird, and there'd be like a that girl shaped hole in the wall, and she'd run away. And so now I might find people who share this very niche interest that maybe also is associated with problems, anxiety, depression, kind of weird insecurities, whatever. But if I gave up that hobby and I said, you know, I'm going to take the lessons I've learned from this hobby, but I'm going to try to channel them, sublimate them into a way that is a little more normal, I bet I would have a better shot at getting the next date, getting married. Or do you disagree?

[Nathan]

I. Because it. I. I do. I Do see what you're saying? You would have an easier time.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

Finding someone if you weren't in such an eccentric hobby. I, I, I do agree with that. Just because there is that stigma with furry and everything. That is very true. But you, you can also find people that enjoy this stuff too.

[Michael Knowles]

Right. You can marry a furry.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Do you plan to marry a furry?

[Nathan]

It's crossed my mind. It has crossed my mind, but I

[Michael Knowles]

feel like it would be hard not to marry a furry if you were a furry yourself.

[Nathan]

Yeah. But with it becoming as mainstream as it has been, I would definitely say compared to years beforehand, it is much easier. Just because you have ways of explaining where you sit in the fandom. As an example.

[Michael Knowles]

Where you sit in the fandom?

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

What do you mean, where you sit?

[Nathan]

Well, like, how, like how deep into the fandom that, that you might be.

[Michael Knowles]

What are the levels of the furry fandom?

[Nathan]

There's, like, your surface level interest in

[Michael Knowles]

anthropomorphic animals, of course, meaning, like, you watch cartoon. You watch the Lion King.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Nathan]

And then you've got, like, making your fursona, which is another level. And then you've got buying art and commissioning your fursona. Then you've got getting. Then you have, like, getting, like, fursuits and everything, and then multiple fursuits. And I would say that's about the deepest that it goes.

[Michael Knowles]

So people have multiple fursonas.

[Nathan]

Yeah. I am also one of them.

[Michael Knowles]

How many fursonas do you have?

[Nathan]

I, like, I mentioned I did like to make characters.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

I would say I probably have, like, three or four.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Nathan]

But they're more characters.

[Michael Knowles]

What are their names?

[Nathan]

Well, I have Nathan, of course.

[Michael Knowles]

Why'd you pick Nathan?

[Nathan]

Say it again.

[Michael Knowles]

Why'd you pick Nathan?

[Nathan]

I just like the name at the time.

[Michael Knowles]

Just like, it's not. It's a biblical name.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Court prophet for King David. But that's not why you picked it.

[Nathan]

No.

[Michael Knowles]

You just like the name.

[Nathan]

I just like the name.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Nathan]

Finnegan is another one. Finnegan, just like the name.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Nathan]

Cody, another one just like the name for that one. And then my very first one that I made was Lake, but I haven't really.

[Michael Knowles]

Lake.

[Nathan]

Lake, yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Like the body of water.

[Nathan]

Yeah. Okay.

[Michael Knowles]

How are they different?

[Nathan]

Different personalities. Like I mentioned, Nathan is much more of a, like, that shy, introverted aspect of myself. But Finnegan for me is much more energetic, explosive, like, kind of get out of your shell. That's why, that's, that's why I made him. So even though I do have that, like, Shyness and everything that I did mention. When I do wear him, I do try to be a little more out there. I haven't had much time with him just because I got him the same time Finnegan has a fursuit. I did get a fursuit for him.

[Michael Knowles]

So you spent another 1200 bucks or whatever it was on another fursuit?

[Nathan]

Maybe.

[Michael Knowles]

Wow. Yeah. What do you do for work?

[Nathan]

I work at a hotel.

[Michael Knowles]

It must pay pretty well.

[Nathan]

Decently.

[Michael Knowles]

All right.

[Nathan]

It's the number one hotel in its category.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh.

[Nathan]

I won't get into super specifics, but it is.

[Michael Knowles]

Can you get me a deal on a suite if I'm traveling?

[Nathan]

I wish I could.

[Michael Knowles]

Darn. Okay. Do your colleagues know that you're a furry?

[Nathan]

I've told a few of them and they don't really find it that weird just because I have explained to them kind of how I'm explaining to you how it is and they haven't really found it weird.

[Michael Knowles]

What percentage of your friends are furries versus not furries?

[Nathan]

Well, I have recently started to try to get to know more furries. I would say, unfortunately, out of all the fur, all the friends that I know personally, I'm the only one.

[Michael Knowles]

You're the only one. So most of your friends are not furry?

[Nathan]

All of my in real life friends that I talk to on a daily basis now.

[Michael Knowles]

And what do they know? That you're. They know that you're.

[Nathan]

They don't mind.

[Michael Knowles]

How'd you get to know them?

[Nathan]

I knew all of them through one of one personal friend as a kid.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Nathan]

He helped me through those different cycles that I was going through.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

Another one, same thing. And then most of them through the beginning of high school, end of middle school, and I've known them ever since. These are very close knit friends of mine.

[Michael Knowles]

All right, now I'm totally confused again. I thought I had figured the furry thing out. Now I'm totally confused because you had basically convinced me that people are furries because they want to make friends and they have trouble making friends.

[Nathan]

This is a conduit to making friends, which is true.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, but you already have friends.

[Nathan]

I have a few of them, yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

But you want more friends.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. Okay. You don't need that many friends, though. This is something I ever. Look, friendship is very important. Friendship is so important. And we don't take it seriously at all today, now especially, I think after the sexual revolution, there's this idea that either men are not supposed to have any friends and women are supposed to control the social life of the household. Which is. It does happen. But it's kind of funny because women don't actually have friends because all women hate each other. But that's a topic for another episode. So the. The idea is that men don't have any friends. And they just go to dinner whenever their wife drags them out to see somebody. Or if a man does have a friend, they have to be gay. Cause the only reason two guys would ever hang out is cause they're gay guys. Those are the. Or. I'm sorry, there is a third category, which is you can sit with other men to watch a football game or something. You know, basically you can have some kind of shared pleasure. But the idea that men would ever just sit around talking about their lives or philosophy or religion or something meaningful, the idea that they would do that regularly is kind of out the window. So there's that. But then on the flip side of it, you don't need that many friends. If you have one or two good friends in your life, that's about it. You can't. You know, a friend to all is a friend to none. So you say you want more friends, which is. Have you had a girlfriend?

[Nathan]

I've had one, yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

One. Was she a furry?

[Nathan]

No.

[Michael Knowles]

No. Did she know you were a furry?

[Nathan]

No.

[Michael Knowles]

No. You hid it from her.

[Nathan]

It was that period of time that I mentioned.

[Michael Knowles]

Dark. Dark period.

[Nathan]

Not that one, but 2016, 2017, 2018. Where furry hate was the thing to do. So I just kind of kept it to myself throughout that entire period.

[Michael Knowles]

And you managed to date the whole time, but you never told her? How much of your day do you spend doing furry stuff? Meaning? Looking at the art, making the art, thinking about the Persona, coming up with the characters, all the way to going

[Nathan]

to the conventions, Maybe like an hour.

[Michael Knowles]

An hour a day.

[Nathan]

Yeah, about that.

[Michael Knowles]

You sleep eight hours a day.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

That's 1 16th of your life you're spending on this. And you know, you probably gotta work.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Let's say you work eight or nine hours a day. That leaves seven or eight hours a day of free time. You gotta eat somewhere in there. So let's say you see your girlfriend for, I don't know, an hour a day, two hours a day. That means that you're spending half the time you see your girlfriend on the furry stuff. But you're keeping that huge chunk of your life away from your girlfriend.

[Nathan]

Yeah. Huh.

[Michael Knowles]

Have you had a girlfriend since then? No.

[Nathan]

No.

[Michael Knowles]

Or would you like a girlfriend?

[Nathan]

I've thought about it. I just haven't had the interest very

[Michael Knowles]

Lately, this is another confounding thing for me about the furry conventions. Cause I think I might go to a convention for the ukulele.

[Nathan]

I don't know.

[Michael Knowles]

I like UKA and I would do that. And all I'm interested in doing there is just like playing ukuleles. I might go to a political convention. I go to many of those usually to give a speech or to hear a speaker or there's a kind of a professional aspect to that or civic minded aspect to that. But if I were going to a purely social kind of convention, I would be there to pick up chicks. That's why if I were, you know, single, that's what I would. If I were there just to meet people and spend and I were single, I would be on the prowl. Especially if I were dressed up like a dog, I would be on the prowl 100% of the time. Yeah, but you are not. So we got completely sidelined. All we got to was you wait in line at the furry convention for two hours, then you go look around because you want to figure out who made these costumes.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

We're still only at like 10am so then what do you do for the rest of the conference if you're not chasing girls?

[Nathan]

Well, there are a lot of different panels that people host and that can range from completely different topics. It can be something as simple relating to the fandom as fursuiting101. Like how to not have heat stroke when you're in a fursuit.

[Michael Knowles]

Like, is it hot?

[Nathan]

Not right now, but regularly. Especially at Anthrocon in the middle of summer.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

Yes, it gets very hot. So it's basically just like 101s. How to keep yourself safe, how to not have heat stroke and everything like that for how to make your fursona. What animal? Everything like that. 2. Interestingly enough, some comedy shows, those go on. I've been to. Anthrocon has a jazz band that they do every year.

[Michael Knowles]

No. Are these shows?

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Like you show up to the comedy show and they're the. The performers are in the fur suits?

[Nathan]

No, no, they're just regular people up there.

[Michael Knowles]

Interesting.

[Nathan]

Some of them there. There are some where they do have it. Like the jazz band is a perfect example. In Anthrocon, sometimes I have a singer come out and they'll be in full fursuit and they'll sing in fursuit and I give it to them because that is really hard to do.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. It would be hard to do comedy at a furry convention because comedy is based in incongruity and kind of absurdity. There's no. So is the furry thing. So how do you know? It's like, what's the deal with polyester paws? I don't know what it would be like. You don't. The things you're talking about would be normal to the audience.

[Nathan]

Well, the comedy show that I went to was about law, basically.

[Michael Knowles]

Law. Law.

[Nathan]

Like.

[Michael Knowles]

Like the law.

[Nathan]

Like the law.

[Michael Knowles]

Like. And order. Yes. Okay.

[Nathan]

Like different really absurd court cases that happened throughout the years. Like, I got. I don't remember one of them, but there was like, trying to. I'm trying to think what it was. This was two years ago. So this. This is very.

[Michael Knowles]

A lot has happened since.

[Nathan]

A lot. A lot has.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay. So you go to the shows, you look at the art.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

You wait in line. Yep. What else?

[Nathan]

Well, at night, after you do all that different stuff, go to your different panels and everything. They tend to have dances. And that is my favorite aspect of it. They're raves. They loud music. Everyone's dancing and everything. And that's my favorite part. I love that. Just because for me, being as introverted as I am, I love to kind of just let loose. Not like crazy amount, but just that whole. Everyone else is dancing. I can join in because I hate.

[Michael Knowles]

I've been to a lot of nightclubs.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

And I hate them. I hate them. They're so loud. You can't talk to anybody. Everyone's on drugs. I don't. I've never done hard drugs. I don't. It's all just,

[Nathan]

you know.

[Michael Knowles]

And it's like in my single days, I'm not that tall. So it was like all these, like 6 foot 4 athletes would, you know, they were. That's more their. My speed is a little more. Dinner parties.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

And I don't. I like waltzing. I don't know. I don't totally love, you know, bumping and grinding. So you love it. That's what you're going for is the dance party.

[Nathan]

To an extent. That and everything else we talked about.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. Are the furry raves like regular raves? Meaning is everyone hammered in on drugs and looking to shack up? No, none of that.

[Nathan]

I mean, obviously you can't control what everyone does, so there's going to be that odd person that's showing up drunk or showing up a little bit inebriated. But I wouldn't say it's to the extent of rave because rave culture and furry culture can intertwine a little bit. Like, you'll find furries at hardcore raves, that is just something that does happen because that person just so in costume. Yeah, that person just happens to be a furry that likes to go to raves. So why not wear my animal costume to the rave and. Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay. So at night you go, you finish your panels and your jazz concert.

[Nathan]

Yep.

[Michael Knowles]

You go to the rave with or without hard drugs?

[Nathan]

Mostly. Mostly without.

[Michael Knowles]

Mostly without. Mostly without. So then it's midnight or later, I don't know. And then you just go to bed and you wake up in the morning, do it all over again.

[Nathan]

Yep.

[Michael Knowles]

How many times a year do you go to a conference?

[Nathan]

I've been going once per year since 2021.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay. Does it. Maybe I'm square. Maybe I'm the square. Because I wouldn't want to do it. I don't even for things that interest me. I don't know, maybe like a. No, that's not fair. Maybe a cigar conference or something. I get a kick out of. Yeah, but then you go back to your regular life.

[Nathan]

Yep.

[Michael Knowles]

Working at the hotel.

[Nathan]

Uh huh.

[Michael Knowles]

What's your regular life look like?

[Nathan]

Well, I go to work. I unfortunately work overnight, so that's about as fun as that sounds.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. I check into hotels late at night sometimes. It looks like a brutal job.

[Nathan]

It's more boring than it is.

[Michael Knowles]

Is brutal. Yeah.

[Nathan]

Thankfully I work, go home, talk with my online furry friends for maybe like an hour. Ish. Talk to my real friends. I mostly do real friends before furry friends because that's just kind of how I go with it. Or sometimes if I talk online A lot of the time, discord is a great thing. So in voice chat, I'll be talking with my friends verbally.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, you don't mean like typing? I'm such. I'm like a spiritual boomer. So you've got a headset on or something? Yeah, I'm on my computer. Okay. This is foreign to me.

[Nathan]

No, you're good.

[Michael Knowles]

I know. Even they set up meetings for me and they make me do stupid Google Meets. I said, why can't I just have a phone call like people used to do when we were a civilized country? And then when I think of chatting online, I think of like sending a text or DM or something. But no, you're on something and you've got voice chat. Voice chat on and you're talking to your.

[Nathan]

My friends that I know very personally.

[Michael Knowles]

Your IRL friends.

[Nathan]

Yes.

[Michael Knowles]

Your in real life friends.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

But also over the Internet.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

And then why don't you see them in person?

[Nathan]

We're all busy and my schedule is just. It's terrible to work on. All right.

[Michael Knowles]

And then you talk to your furry friends who are spread all over the country.

[Nathan]

Yeah, online.

[Michael Knowles]

Online. But it's all online, basically.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

How much of your life do you live online?

[Nathan]

A lot.

[Michael Knowles]

A lot. What percentage would you say?

[Nathan]

I'll go to say like 90.

[Michael Knowles]

90% of your life online. Yeah. I suspected this. I think it. Especially reading a little bit of the history of furrydom, which you've now affirmed that it really explodes with the Internet. Yes, because. And the fact that furries are disproportionately transgender or like different combos of gender identities, none of that surprises me because the whole thing is about not being in your body. Right. The whole thing is I'm going to put on a different body. I'm going to totally change my physical appearance. I'm going to get into it virtually mediated by this computer screen and by the Internet. I'm going to have my social life overwhelmingly be outside of my body and mediated by the Internet. And then maybe once a year I'll go to the convention, but I still won't be there in my body. I'll be. I mean, I will be, but I'll have this other body over me. And it seems to me that it's no surprise that furrydom, transgenderism and the Internet all grew up at the same time. Am I reading too deeply into it?

[Nathan]

Maybe just a little bit.

[Michael Knowles]

How so?

[Nathan]

Just cause like, I, I. Furry is. Did explode like popularity wise with the Internet.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

Especially with those years that I have obviously keep going back to.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

Because those, those three years really were when furry went into like, extreme mainstream.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, no, we're being a little loose. I wouldn't call it extremely mainstream.

[Nathan]

Comparatively. Comparatively.

[Michael Knowles]

Definitely. Relatively mainstream.

[Nathan]

Yeah, relatively mainstream. Just like I saw a video, and I don't mean to go super off topic, but I saw a video of Anthrocon. Same convention.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

And the lobby that I stood in, like the area that I stood in where it was a video of a couple of really popular fursuiters dancing to a song was completely empty. And it was just like maybe six of them and some people in the background walking and everything. That's not the case now. Now it's the. The entire room pretty much the entire time has maybe a couple hundred people in it at a time. And obviously on peak days, it's, it's like way more. It's, it's. It's so disproportionate to where the fandom was. The fandom was super close knit, obviously, because it did start on forums and everything, but just with how much it exploded. It's just. It's. It's night and day. It really is.

[Michael Knowles]

Do you know Clavicular?

[Nathan]

I do know about him, yes.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay. You're sitting in his former seat. He is a previous guest on this show. And Clavicular is a looks maxer.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

So he'll inject himself with all these things, hit himself in the head with a hammer to look better, to improve his physical appearance. And I can't help but see a little bit of a similarity between looks maxing and the furry fandom. In as much as it's all very visual. It's about changing your own appearance in a way that makes you feel better about yourself, more comfortable, more sociable, helps you to make friends or other sorts of connections. And I. Is there were furries, the early looksmaxers?

[Nathan]

Nah.

[Michael Knowles]

No. You see no connection between them?

[Nathan]

I don't.

[Michael Knowles]

Let me try to explain it further, because I think I made this point to him when he was on my show. I see a connection getting back to what we were just talking about between looks maxing and transgenderism. Inasmuch as transgenderism is when a guy tries to make himself look like a woman, he doesn't actually look like a woman. He just looks like this kind of cartoonish caricature idea of what a woman is. And likewise, looks maxing is when a guy just tries to make himself look like the ideal guy, like a kind of caricature of a big, strong guy, the platonic form of the guy. And now I can add a third category into this. The furry thing is when you try to make yourself look like this character that you have in your head, this ideal character that you've commissioned artists to draw that makes you feel good about yourself, that you think is attractive to other people. All of it is a kind of suppression of your real self and an attempt to sublimate it into. What you would have yourself look like if you weren't born with your own body. Does that resonate at all?

[Nathan]

Not really. Not really? I'm sorry.

[Michael Knowles]

No.

[Nathan]

For, like, I won't speak for everyone, just because, like I mentioned, the fandom is growing thousands by the year. It's crazy. I'll speak for myself. I just even. I see this more of a mirror as myself, at least my current fursona that I'm wearing at the moment. And I don't really see it as me trying to, like, change kind of who I am, like, in that much of A sense as, like, looks maxing or.

[Michael Knowles]

At the beginning of our interview, you said that the furry community had very much helped you to change who you are and to grow in certain ways, and that that was really your objective in it. Now you're telling me the opposite, it seems. Or am I misunderstanding?

[Nathan]

No, it's hard for me to explain. Nathan, for me, is what a lot of people in the furry community call a trusona, which is really just you, but in an anthropomorphic animal form. So as I grow as a person, Nathan grows as a person, and that's kind of what it has been. Meanwhile, with, like, looks maxing and everything like that, you are growing as a person. But I'm trying to.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, I think they're pretty similar. But if you disagree, wouldn't the same idea hold? Yeah. You're working on these things. You're trying to grow as a person, and you have modified your outward appearance to try to reflect and accelerate that.

[Nathan]

Right.

[Michael Knowles]

In other words, you by your Christian name, not Nathan, the character's name.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

You were kind of shy and not as outgoing. And so now then you made this character, Nathan, who's got, like, these big, gigantic eyes and a big happy tongue hanging out and is certainly more outgoing than yourself at the time, even if he's shy by furry standards. But the character kind of has changed with you, and maybe the character as an ideal has helped to change you along the way. Isn't that what you were telling me earlier?

[Nathan]

It has certainly helped, definitely for me. Becoming a little more comfortable.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. But that's kind of what Clavicular was saying. I don't want to put words in his mouth. He was saying, basically hitting myself in the head with a hammer. Again, I don't recommend his methods, and I hope he, you know, I enjoyed speaking with him, and I hope he kind of goes on the right path because he's got a lot of talent and skill and stuff. But I hope he harnesses that in a good way that will be helpful to him and others. But the principle is, well, you know, I'm not as good looking. I'm a little shy. I'm not good with girls. I'm not succeeding in the ways I want to succeed. So I'm going to hit myself in the head, in the hammer, and I'm going to inject myself with a bunch of stuff, and then I'm going to become that as I look more like I want to look, I'm going to really become that guy on the inside, too. Seems very similar to Me, it.

[Nathan]

I won't speak for the whole fandom, obviously, but I'll speak for myself. It's not more of a, like I want to look like an animal or anything like that. Like, looks maxing.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

It's just more of. As I develop this personality, this fursona and everything, I develop myself as a person.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. As I understand that we're saying pretty similar things, but your mileage may vary. Are there people to the point you just brought up? Are there furries who do want to be animals?

[Nathan]

I'm not as educated. I will put that full forward. I do not know very much about it, but there are different subcultures where a person might believe spiritually that they are an animal, but I don't know much about it.

[Michael Knowles]

Got it, got it. There was a guy years ago, he was on tv. He was featured on tv. I think he killed himself, unfortunately. But he went by the name stalking cat.

[Nathan]

I recognize that you've heard about this. Yeah, that was way more extreme than what I'm talking about.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, well, this guy, he didn't just put the suit on, he modified his body. And also to try to look like a cat. But he said about himself the same thing you're describing, which is he said, no, I am a cat. Obviously, I'm just a guy. But I think at a deep level, I really. At a non physical level, I am a cat. And so I want to bring my body more into line with my true self, which is of course the premise of transgenderism, which is my body is one sex, but deep, at some deep level that you can never find, I'm actually the opposite sex. I'm going to bring my body into line with the opposite sex. And so what you're saying is there is a subculture within furries where they believe that despite having two legs and two arms and everything, they believe that in some way they actually are animals.

[Nathan]

They recognize that they are a person. They do fall forward. Again, I don't know that much about it.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Nathan]

But they do have that like, like spirit animal aspect to them. Again, I don't, and I don't want to make assumptions about it just because I don't know a lot about it, but that is just what I understand.

[Michael Knowles]

I will make assumptions. They're totally crazy if they think that. If they think that they're in some way an animal, really an animal animal, they're totally bonkers. Like, it's kind of the difference. I guess to use the now, I guess, more mainstream trans analogy, it's like the difference between a drag queen and a transgender. A drag queen is a guy who knows he's a guy, but he just gets a thrill out of dressing up like a lady. And a transgender is someone who's a guy who thinks he's a girl and dresses up like a girl. Those are different things. Even though they're both guys who dress up like girls, they're actually fundamentally different views of the self. And you're saying there's a similar thing if a guy dresses up like a dog, but he knows he's a person and he just likes dogs or whatever, that's kind of like the drag queen, but the one who says, no, my spirit is actually the spirit of a dog. That's more like the transgender. Am I understanding that right?

[Nathan]

I'm unsure just because I don't have a lot of education in it. I really don't.

[Michael Knowles]

I'll confess to basically total ignorance on this topic. But my producer, Ben Davies, was doing research. I don't know, I'll have to ask. I don't want to ask him about his research. But one thing he came across is this group called Therians. And he said this was notable because it was a lot of very good looking women who are kind of furries, but kind of not furries. I actually haven't seen it. I'm not even. I'm not pretending. This was all my producer and he told me I had to ask you about the Hot Therians.

[Nathan]

Do you remember that group that I told you about? The subgroup that I mentioned?

[Michael Knowles]

Which one? The one that thinks. The group that thinks that they are related.

[Nathan]

The one that I do not know a lot about.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes.

[Nathan]

That is what a Therian is.

[Michael Knowles]

Got it.

[Nathan]

Again, I don't know a lot about it, so I can't fully explain it.

[Michael Knowles]

Is my producer, right, that that group is good looking?

[Nathan]

There are a lot of good looking women.

[Michael Knowles]

Are they better looking than the average furry community?

[Nathan]

I don't know the answer to that

[Michael Knowles]

because that would check out with what is a meme, and I think probably a scientific discovery, which is the hot crazy axis, that there is sometimes this relationship between women being very good looking and being very crazy. And so if a woman thinks she's a chipmunk or something, I wouldn't be that surprised if she were more likely to be good looking than the more grounded, normal woman some of the time. Again, I don't want to paint with too broad a brush. Speaking of the spirit, you mentioned at the top that you were raised lds, Mormon.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Are you still that or have your religious views changed? Do they intersect with furrydom?

[Nathan]

They don't intersect. And I'm not really that much anymore just because of everything that I went through around that time. So I would say no, not at the moment.

[Michael Knowles]

Do you. Do you have any spiritual inclination?

[Nathan]

To an extent. Like, there's. There's like no shot that, like trying to. I haven't thought about this for a very long time, so I would say not necessarily.

[Michael Knowles]

Just not necessarily. Meaning you don't have a spiritual inclination?

[Nathan]

Not really. Just. I haven't thought about it for such a long time. I really haven't.

[Michael Knowles]

So what do you think about other than the furry stuff?

[Nathan]

Well, I think that I'm in college, trying to get my business degree and kind of living day to day.

[Michael Knowles]

What do you want to do after college?

[Nathan]

Maybe I like accounting. Like basic accounting. Inventory management is something that I really loved.

[Michael Knowles]

No one has ever said that before in the history of.

[Nathan]

I know, I know.

[Michael Knowles]

Inventory management is something that I really love.

[Nathan]

I liked it a lot. I worked at. I don't know if you know a place called Lush. It's.

[Michael Knowles]

I don't.

[Nathan]

It's. It's like soaps and everything.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Nathan]

I liked going in and doing FIFO first and first out for all the inventory stuff. It just kind of had some stuff click for me. So that kind of. I would not mind doing inventory management. So that's why I have a business.

[Michael Knowles]

That's great.

[Nathan]

Business administration.

[Michael Knowles]

We might have to hire you for Mayflower cigars. Do you smoke cigars?

[Nathan]

I do smoke a little bit of cigars.

[Michael Knowles]

All right. That's a fandom that we share. Yeah, not so much the furry thing. Is there any limit on what a furry is? I'm thinking this now because of the. All these identities. We've kind of now expanded the definition of identity to just like you can be straight but lgbt. I don't know how you can do that. But that's now, like, part of it. You can. We just have blown away all the limits. So you mentioned earlier you can be a furry dressed up like a traffic cone, which is not. Furries are supposed to be anthropomorphic animals.

[Nathan]

Those are more joke costumes.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, of course. But it's like. But it is. There's still kind of part of it. Is there. Can you be. Do you have to be a mammal to be a furry? No.

[Nathan]

Like I mentioned, there are insects.

[Michael Knowles]

Insects. That's right.

[Nathan]

Can you fish?

[Michael Knowles]

Can you be a fish?

[Nathan]

I don't think I've seen one. I don't Think.

[Michael Knowles]

No fish furries.

[Nathan]

But I have seen fish fursonas. Like, as in like an actual. Like. So what I mean when I say I haven't seen one is, I mean, fursuit.

[Michael Knowles]

The $5,000 copy.

[Nathan]

Yeah, I haven't seen that, but I have seen fursonas that are like koi fish, bass, salmon.

[Michael Knowles]

Would it be insensitive to wear a fishnet to a furry convention? To the fish fursonas?

[Nathan]

No, I don't think so.

[Michael Knowles]

They'd get past it.

[Nathan]

They would get past it.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, they'd get past it. Okay.

[Nathan]

There are even mythical animals, like dragons, manticores. I think that was one that I saw.

[Michael Knowles]

What. What's a manticore?

[Nathan]

I. It's. It's the Greek, like, lion head, snake tail, Eagle wings. So it's Greek mythology. I. Not as. That's kind of what I remember with the very short period of time I took world history in high school. So we're talking years.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

I think that's what kind of clicks with me.

[Michael Knowles]

I'll take your word for it. I clearly was sleeping through my high school class on this, so it all sounds very nice and wholesome. Would you. Let's say someday you get married, have kids. Would you encourage your kids to be a furry.

[Nathan]

For me, with kids, it's like, if they have an interest in it, that is their interest, but I don't want to force it, you know, like. Like, oh, dude, yeah. No, you'll like this a lot. Just because you, like, if. If. If they show an interest in it and they keep having that interest, sure enough, you know, I'll make. I'll keep by them. I'll support them. But if they don't show an interest in it, that's fine. That's. That's. It's. It's their choice.

[Michael Knowles]

Do kids go to the conventions?

[Nathan]

I've seen a few. Huh.

[Michael Knowles]

With their parents?

[Nathan]

Yeah, with their parents, of course.

[Michael Knowles]

Are their parents furries?

[Nathan]

Some of them aren't. Huh. But some of them are. But a lot of them aren't.

[Michael Knowles]

And is there, as you've. You've insisted that the furry conventions are mostly above board, that it's not just, like a bunch of weird sex stuff?

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

So in that way, I guess maybe it's okay for kids to go. But even down to the fact that the identities are so kind of sexually deviant at these conventions, isn't that, in a way, kind of scandalous to bring kids to.

[Nathan]

There are periods of time where kids aren't allowed, and that's obviously like 9, 10, 11. When those dances happen, that. That's. That's a pretty good time for kids to like, hey, you're not allowed here

[Michael Knowles]

because

[Nathan]

people get crazy.

[Michael Knowles]

People get crazy. Okay.

[Nathan]

There are also age restricted conventions out there too. A recent one was 21 plus. Actually, it happened in Las Vegas, obviously. Why it was 21 plus is because it was being hosted in a casino, so.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, I thought you were going to casino is one thing. Okay.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

I thought you were saying because they were doing weird, freaky, scandalous stuff that kids don't want to see.

[Nathan]

It was mostly casino.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay. All right. That's more wholesome, actually than I expected. Blackjack is a little more wholesome. What I would imagine. Okay. But isn't there? I can't help but think, even as you're allaying my fears, that there's something kind of scandalous about it. Because getting back to the thing we were talking about a little earlier, even if it's all kind of innocent, it does seem like the sort of thing that adults shouldn't do. Spending time and money dressing up in animal costumes to go kind of chase each other around at a convention hall. And then even if they weren't going to the rave at night.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Going to lectures on how to make the costumes or whatever. It just seems like the sort of thing, pardon my judginess, that is unbecoming of an adult and therefore scandalous to children. Am I being too prude?

[Nathan]

Maybe just a little bit. Just because it, like trying to think of a good way.

[Michael Knowles]

Don't yuck my yum is what you're saying. Don't yuck my yum. Who cares? What's it to you if we want to do something fun and frivolous?

[Nathan]

Who cares to an extent.

[Michael Knowles]

What percentage of furries at these conventions are married?

[Nathan]

I don't know the answer to that. I really don't.

[Michael Knowles]

You don't have a sense walking around talking to people.

[Nathan]

No, I don't. Just because it's a lot of friend groups that show up for conventions. You can't really tell.

[Michael Knowles]

And what. What kind of jobs do they have in real life? Like, have I before I met you, I had not, to my knowledge, ever met a furry before in my life. Where are all the furries during the course of the day?

[Nathan]

I have a somewhat funny joke. There is a joke to where if you were to put all the furries inside of an airplane or like fill an airplane with furries.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

And if that airplane was to just spontaneously explode.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

It would go down the drain. It's A lot of IT people.

[Michael Knowles]

A lot of computer nerds.

[Nathan]

Yes, Lots of computer nerds. Yes.

[Michael Knowles]

That checks out for me. And inventory management.

[Nathan]

Yeah, perhaps. But lots of it. But it really is all walks of life. Like I recently saw on Twitter. I saw a rescue. Like an Alpine rescue helicopter, like operator

[Michael Knowles]

just flying there to. Flying to save people in the Alps. Just had a big fur hat on. No, he probably didn't have. Did he didn't have the mask on.

[Nathan]

It was either. He did have it on. I think so. But it wasn't obviously to help someone, because that's terrible. I can barely see out of this thing.

[Michael Knowles]

Right. It would not be efficient.

[Nathan]

But people do post pictures of what they do. And I've seen all walks of life. Like the mountain rescue helicopter. I saw someone who was in the Swiss army recently. A really good example of someone that is extremely prevalent.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Nathan]

That has a very important. Not like important, but he did something that was really good. I forget his name, but he was a doctor. I don't know if you probably heard about this about. It was a Harvard class and they had someone in fursuit come out. Does that ring any bells?

[Michael Knowles]

It. It. I didn't know that that literally happened. It doesn't surprise me at all.

[Nathan]

It did literally happen.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Nathan]

And the guy who was in that fursuit. I forget his name. He's a doctor. He passed away, unfortunately, recently. But do you have an Apple watch?

[Michael Knowles]

No. Only a dumb watch. I don't use smartwatch.

[Nathan]

Well, the heartbeat monitor in Apple Watches was designed by him.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, wow.

[Nathan]

Yeah. There are prevalent people. The lead biological doctor for the Moderna vaccine checks out.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. You're affirming all of my prejudices, all of my priors. That's amazing.

[Nathan]

There are a lot of intellectuals. It's another reason why I like it a lot.

[Michael Knowles]

But it seems so frivolous. So you got all these brainy people, including the IT department and even the super geniuses at Harvard or whatever. That's kind of barbell strategy. You either do the most intellectual thing or the most frivolous thing. Or maybe Furry Dom is intellectual. I don't know. It's obviously artistic and autistic. It's got something for everybody, I guess. Speaking of, what about politics?

[Nathan]

Politics?

[Michael Knowles]

How does it break down politically? I can't imagine there are very many conservative Republican furries.

[Nathan]

You would be surprised.

[Michael Knowles]

Really?

[Nathan]

No, there are conservatives. There are Christian furries. Lots of Christian furries, actually.

[Michael Knowles]

Really?

[Nathan]

I actually know a few.

[Michael Knowles]

Jesuit?

[Nathan]

Yeah. Genuine Christian furries? Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

No, I said Jesuit.

[Nathan]

Oh. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[Michael Knowles]

That's the point for. That's a cheap shot. Christian furries.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

I guess there's a meme that goes around we were talking about confession earlier, which is like, guy will go in to the confessional, I'll say, bless me, Father, for I have sinned, Father. Five times this week, I peeled an avocado and smashed it into my face until the goop ran down my suit jacket. And the priest will say, well, that's weird, but it's not a sin. You know, it's definitely weird, but you actually don't have to confess that. I guess what you're describing as the furrydom probably falls into that category, other than maybe it's like a waste of time in some way. I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe people balance their life in a way that it works. So I want it before we get to the Christian part. Conservative Republicans.

[Nathan]

Yeah. I haven't really interacted much with the conservative side of the fandom, so I don't know that much, but they do exist.

[Michael Knowles]

I wonder if you could do like a big fuzzy maga hat or something on top of a. Or a. They compare Donald Trump to, like, Chester Cheeto or something. I don't. Are they open about their politics?

[Nathan]

Some of them are, really.

[Michael Knowles]

Are they shunned by the red? Look, this is a group that's like 90% LGBT and like tech guys. The tech guys skew lib, in my experience. And you're telling me that some guy rolls in there, says, yeah, man, I voted for Trump three times. I was at the Capitol on January 6th, and the other furries are gonna be cool about it? No way.

[Nathan]

Probably not.

[Michael Knowles]

No way. So are they ostracized? Are they? Inasmuch as the furries are kind of a marginalized community. Are the conservative Republican furries the super marginalized community?

[Nathan]

I don't have much knowledge on that.

[Michael Knowles]

Because you marginalize them because you're ostracizing those Republican furries. You're not hanging out with them. Maybe not intentionally.

[Nathan]

Not intentionally?

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. Okay. You gotta go hang out. If you're going to go to the convention anyway, you have to reach out to the conservative furries for the Christians. Do they talk about their religion?

[Nathan]

Yeah, there are panels where they host about talking about it.

[Michael Knowles]

So what do they say?

[Nathan]

They just meet up with other furries?

[Michael Knowles]

No, but what do they say about their religion? Like, I would say the religion tells us. Christianity tells us to comport ourselves with dignity. Christianity tells us to do a lot of things, but part of it is we're to comport ourselves with some dignity in humility. We're not supposed to be grandiose or anything but that. Well, I'll quote St. Paul, who says, when I was a child, I did the things proper to a child, but when I became a man, I put away the things that are proper to a child and I did the things that are proper to a man. It seems to me like playing around in costumes is contradicting that or. No.

[Nathan]

Well, people don't do it all the time. No, that's true.

[Michael Knowles]

I guess I go to Halloween parties sometimes. Yeah, I put a costume on.

[Nathan]

People don't do it all the time.

[Michael Knowles]

How does this relate to cosplaying? Which is something I don't really know much of anything about, but I've seen it come, and I'm still trying to figure out even what it is, because as far as I can tell, it's just when you put on a costume

[Nathan]

and play around, cosplay is you're playing as a character. In popular media, that is the basic definition of cosplay. So furries are playing characters. They might be anthropomorphic, but they can be their own or established characters. So there is an intertwine between those two communities.

[Michael Knowles]

So furries are a subset of cosplay, Kind of like a square is a rectangle, but not all rectangles are squares.

[Nathan]

I would say to an extent, yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay. Did you ever. Were you ever into cosplaying or was it just straight to furry? Give me the good black tar stuff. No.

[Nathan]

As a kid, I had done a tiny, tiny little bit of cosplay with a few of my friends, like with my brother's friends, basically.

[Michael Knowles]

Do you have any other hobbies?

[Nathan]

I play a lot of video games. Do play a lot of video games. I like photography. Photography is a good one. I took photography all throughout high school. I did film photography. I did digital photography. I know a little bit on Photoshop, but I haven't done it in a very long time. But it's something that I really do like, and I still do some.

[Michael Knowles]

You like it, but you don't. You haven't done it in a long time.

[Nathan]

I haven't done a while just because I haven't had the time.

[Michael Knowles]

But you have time to play video games. You have time to talk to your friends on the Internet. You have time to talk to your furry friends on the Internet. You have time to do the furry art. My point is, when you say my other hobbies, I play video games. This idea I keep coming Back to that. You live your life 90% online. And I wonder. Look, I get it. I doom scroll all day, I work online. But wouldn't it be better to live in the real world? I find when I put the phone down for two days, yeah, I can never do that. One day, half a day, I feel better, I feel more human. I feel more like an integrated person, body and spirit. When you mention that you have these different fursonas and this is this part of me, and this is that part of me, and this is this other part that I want to be, I say, oh, I totally get that. But you're an integrated human being and you have a real body and you have a real appearance and you have a real name and you have real character traits and habits and virtues and vices. And let's say, isn't it all kind of a big distraction in this hobby, which is different from other hobbies in that this hobby is really about you. It's very focused on yourself, your attributes, what you are like and who you want to be. Wouldn't it be better for you just to live your life ideally in the real world, not mediated virtually as the integrated whole that you are?

[Nathan]

I would say so, but I don't think that it would change much about myself, furry or not furry, if that makes sense. Because I've always been a homebody. I've always been. I don't really. I've never been the person to adventure that much. It's kind of unfortunate.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, if it's unfortunate, then change it. There's nothing wrong with being a homebody. But if you don't want to be a homebody and you don't want to go adventure, then go adventure. What's stopping you?

[Nathan]

I'm unsure.

[Michael Knowles]

So go do it. You obviously have money if you're spending thousands of dollars on fursuits.

[Nathan]

True.

[Michael Knowles]

You probably go make it to Italy if you want. For that, you can get a coach ticket for like 700 bucks probably. This really gets to the thematic question or the question that kind of threads all of them together, which is, I see your observation that being a Furry has helped you in many ways. Socially. You say you would have killed yourself had you not been a Furry. So you credit that with helping you to develop in some way. But my question is, is being a furry impeding you now from developing in some way? And are there things that you would like to do that you're not doing that maybe you should devote your time and resources to and even some of the newfound confidence that you may or may not have cultivated through furrydom? In other words, if the furry suit is an instrument to go make friends.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Could your very presence in the furry community be not something that you regret, but just be something that you're grateful for that was an instrument to the next phase of your development? All the things you want to do that unfortunately you haven't done.

[Nathan]

That's kind of how I've been with it. Like, I would never have even thought to go to Pittsburgh for this convention. And I love Pittsburgh. It's a great city.

[Michael Knowles]

Someone almost blew me up in Pittsburgh once. But otherwise, it's a nice city.

[Nathan]

Yeah. Well, otherwise, it's a nice city. I never would have thought about doing that and going out there and just seeing the city, because the furthest I've ever been outside of Alabama has been Nashville and Chattanooga. That's about as far as I've been. So seeing just how just seeing Pittsburgh itself, it has started to spark that more adventurous side of me, I do want to go out more. I just need to get up and do it, basically.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. Would you go back to Pittsburgh without the fur suit?

[Nathan]

I would say so.

[Michael Knowles]

And you'd go to Italy.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

And you'd go. So then would you live your life? Is there going to be a time when you retire from being a furry?

[Nathan]

There might be.

[Michael Knowles]

When is that time? That's a very interesting answer. When is that time? When has the furdom run its course? When do you hang up the head? When do you hang up the paws?

[Nathan]

It depends. It really does, because there are people in the furry fandom that are very old.

[Michael Knowles]

I believe it. Yeah. But you said you might quit. You might not be one of those guys. And I wonder what the very fact that you acknowledge that means that there would be some criteria, some conditions that would be satisfied, at which point you would say, you know what? This furry thing, it's been a lot of fun, but I'm done with it now. What would those conditions be?

[Nathan]

I don't even know. It's just that there's always a chance that you could hank something up. There's always a chance. There's never not a chance where you don't stop.

[Michael Knowles]

I'll never stop being a Yankee fan.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

I'll never stop being a Catholic. There are some things where I can say definitively, I'm ride or die. This is for the rest of my life. This will. But there are other things, even cigars, which I love so much. I could see a world if my doctor told me, which I don't Think he would. And as George Burns observed, when he was smoking 15 cigars a day at the age of 92, he said, look, my doctors are dead, so I don't even listen to them. But my doctor said something I love. I don't know whether we're talking about fruity seltzer or cigars or whatever. Hey, Michael, you're gonna die if you keep doing that, so you gotta give it up. I'd say, okay, it's fine. Quit it. This is one of those things you say you could give up. It's not as deep to your personality as being, I don't know, a Yankee fan or a Catholic. But you don't have the sense of what that is. Which implies to me that you're doing the furry thing because you're after something else.

[Nathan]

I may have misspoke a little bit.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Nathan]

May have misspoke just a little bit for. Let me think for a second. Furry does mean a lot to me.

[Michael Knowles]

No one denies that it means a lot.

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

No one denies you're on my show right now wearing a wolf head.

[Nathan]

Yeah, it does mean a lot to me. And right now, at this moment, I don't honestly think that there would be a time where I would ever give up.

[Michael Knowles]

What changed? 30 seconds ago, you told me you certainly could see a time when you hung it up.

[Nathan]

I believe I misspoke on that one.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, you didn't just misspeak. You changed your mind. Yeah, misspeak is when I use the wrong adjective. Yeah, you changed your answer here. Why? Because you don't want to be seen to downplay how much you like the furry thing.

[Nathan]

No, I love it. Like I mentioned, I do.

[Michael Knowles]

So then why did you previously tell me you could quit it someday? Because I think you probably could quit it someday. I think you told me. I think the first answer was the right answer. And probably you changed your answer because you don't want to seem like you're dissing this community that has been very good to you. But I think you probably could quit. I don't think being a furry is like being a Catholic or something, or even a Yankee fan. I think you probably could hang it up.

[Nathan]

It definitely could happen, but I don't really see exactly.

[Michael Knowles]

You just don't know what the conditions are.

[Nathan]

I don't know what it could be. It could definitely happen, but I don't know what could make me want to leave.

[Michael Knowles]

What's the next furry event?

[Nathan]

Anthrocon Again?

[Michael Knowles]

That's the one that's coming up again.

[Nathan]

Yep. When Is that first through the seventh is when I'm going. But it's the second through the fifth. No, sixth. My bad.

[Michael Knowles]

Are you gonna get flack at anthrocon for coming on this show?

[Nathan]

I don't think so.

[Michael Knowles]

That's good. Why not? Cause I'm a nice guy, that's why.

[Nathan]

I've actually spoken to a lot of people about it.

[Michael Knowles]

Really?

[Nathan]

They said this was actually a great opportunity.

[Michael Knowles]

Good, good. I'm glad to hear it. Is there anything before I. Before I let you go?

[Nathan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Before I let you sort of scamper and run away, is there anything that you want the world to know about the furries that we haven't talked about over the last two hours?

[Nathan]

Damn. Two hours. It's not as taboo as it seems.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, it is taboo.

[Nathan]

I mean, it is, but to the extent

[Michael Knowles]

when you say that it could be taken one of two ways. Yeah, it's not as taboo as it seems. Meaning it's kind of mainstream now, guys. So if you want to be a furry, just be a furry. Or it should not be taboo because it's not that bad. Which way do you mean it?

[Nathan]

I think not that bad.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. What's the worst part of the furry community?

[Nathan]

I haven't really had much personal experience with the really bad part about it.

[Michael Knowles]

What is that part?

[Nathan]

I would say a lot of the, like, super excessive drug use that I've noticed, but that's, again, just me personally, but with the rave scene and furry scene kind of intertwining with that. That it is something. But it's not like people are passing out drugs at the convention center. Like, oh, I use this.

[Michael Knowles]

This, this. You probably need a lot with those big snouts. You know, it's very hard. I mean, you would need, like, probably a couple of pounds of cocaine to get all the way up the fur snout. So I could see how drugs could. Could be a problem.

[Nathan]

It's an issue. But, yeah, it. I'm sorry.

[Michael Knowles]

That's it. Okay. That's fair. Just the drugs.

[Nathan]

That's my biggest problem.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay. All right. Would you. I'm not encouraging you to do this. Yeah. Would you take your head off, your fur head off, tell the world who you really are, or no. You want to remain anonymous as a furry.

[Nathan]

I'll remain anonymous.

[Michael Knowles]

I recommend that. I don't think. I think that's the right decision.

[Nathan]

Business Major kind of tells me not to take this off

[Michael Knowles]

and does that as I leave you to go wolf away. Doesn't that contradict the thing that you just said? Which is. It's not that taboo. It's not that taboo, but I don't want people to know I do it and therefore, because again, I'm not encouraging you to take your fur head off on camera since it does seem to contradict that. Is that maybe a sign that

[Nathan]

maybe

[Michael Knowles]

at a certain point you ought to give it up if you find something still a little off or odd or shameful about it?

[Nathan]

I don't think so.

[Michael Knowles]

All right, we'll see. Maybe next time I see you, maybe you'll have the fur head on. Maybe you'll have the fur head off. In either case, it has been a great pleasure, Nathan. I very much appreciate your coming in and who knows, you know, the world is so weird. Maybe next time we chat, I'll be sitting here and I'll have my own fursona on.

[Nathan]

Hopefully.

[Michael Knowles]

I don't know what kind of animal I would be. Maybe you can tell me in the comments. We'll see you next time.