"I Took Mushrooms And Saw God" Michael & The Psychonaut Pt. 2

Summary

Podcast Summary: "I Took Mushrooms And Saw God" – Michael & The Psychonaut Pt. 2

The Michael Knowles Show, The Daily Wire
Date: October 25, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this striking and deeply introspective episode, Michael Knowles hosts “Josh,” an evangelist and former drug user, as he recounts a searing personal journey: a high-dose psilocybin (mushroom) trip that led to a terrifying confrontation with spiritual realities. The conversation, weaving Christian theology with harrowing psychedelic experience, probes the boundary between the material and spiritual worlds, the nature of repentance and revelation, and the temptation of self-divinization. The episode’s tone is earnest, narrative-driven, and philosophical, mixing raw storytelling with robust theological analysis.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background & Motivation for the Mushroom Experience

• Josh’s spiritual background: Former heroin addict, now living a devout, “sold-out” Christian life ([01:53]).
• Reason for the trip: Seeking to confront lingering fear and anxiety around psychedelics, believing perhaps mushrooms (because “they’re natural”) could reconnect him to God in a meaningful way ([02:16], [03:08]).
  • "[I was] tired of there being fear with this... I don't like fear. I'm gonna confront this. I'm gonna take it. I said, it's now or never." – Josh ([03:29])

2. The Initiation of the Trip & Immediate Spiritual Confrontation

• Setting: In a friend’s house, after taking an eighth of mushrooms ([04:11]).
• Friend leaves; atmosphere shifts: Josh feels a malevolent presence, likened to past demonic encounters from his ministry days ([04:42]).
  • “The second he walked out the door, it was like that feeling of sleep paralysis. The feeling of, like, demons and evil walks in the room... I know this presence.” – Josh ([04:55])
• Internal dialogue: Tries to reassure himself (“You can’t die”), only to feel a voice – understood as God – rebuke his pride ([05:33]).
  • “Who says I can't take your life whenever I want?” – Voice in Josh’s heart ([05:33])

3. Escalating Crisis: Despair, Prayer, and Spiritual Consequence

• Physical and spiritual terror: Overwhelming sense of spiritual peril, feeling “death encompassed” him ([07:54]).
  • “Forgiveness doesn’t equate to consequence... Oh no. I opened this door. I know better.” – Josh ([07:54])
• **Calls wife for help, unable to explain; drifts in and out of a black void, feeling spirit being pulled away ([08:51]).
  • “By the time she gets there, I’m not able to really function... I couldn’t breathe well... like I was gasping for breath and I’m feeling my body go in and out.” – Josh ([09:15])

4. Full-Blown Vision: Heavenly Courts, Accusation, and Fear

• Out-of-body experience: In a great hand, confronted by “demons” presenting a case before a “tower of light” – the kingdom of heaven ([10:45], [11:28]).

• Demons’ accusation: Josh, as an evangelist, is accused of “taking souls from their kingdom but eating from their table” ([12:36]).

  • “We’re tired of this kid. He keeps coming into our kingdom, taking people out. And then he came back and ate off our table.” – Demonic Accuser ([12:30])

• Insight into spiritual judgment: Josh describes an experience of total spiritual transparency, feeling naked and exposed.

  • “In the spirit, everything is just... it's out on the open... It was that moment of being naked before everything, of me being a hypocrite in that moment…” – Josh ([13:54])

• Physical and spiritual anguish: Describes intense physical symptoms (breathlessness, feeling organs “shriveling up”), blending with acute spiritual fear ([15:10]).

  • “Fear becomes a jacket... just despair. Every negative emotion you could think of is there, and then it’s heightened.” – Josh ([15:10])

5. Theological Analysis and Commentary

• Nature of spiritual and physical realms: Michael Knowles reflects on the inseparability of spiritual and bodily existence, referencing Aristotelian and Christian metaphysics ([17:30]).
  • “Our soul is the substantial form of our body... you are your soul, you are your body... those things are together inseparably for now in this world.” – Michael ([17:54])
• Josh’s agreement: The spiritual world is “happening right now, while we’re sitting here talking” ([18:58]).

6. Deliverance, The Cross, and Restoration

• Josh surrenders: Feeling lost, prays for salvation for the sake of his unborn child ([20:00]).
  • “God, just save me for them... At that moment, I started to feel almost a slight pressure release.” ([20:40])
• Intercession and redemption: Feels the prayers of the “cloud of witnesses” (saints). Sees Jesus emerge from the tower, “puts his arm around me. He said, 'This one’s mine. He belongs to me.’” ([22:14]-[24:17])
• Physical manifestation: Following this, Josh experiences a dramatic deliverance—vomiting profusely as a physical sign ([24:00]).

7. Face-to-Face: Encounter With Christ

• Further vision in the tower: Finds himself with Jesus face to face; Jesus looks at him lovingly and says, “Maybe we shouldn’t do that again,” smiling ([25:21]).
  • “He’s staring in my eyes. He smiles at me, like he was happy to see me. And he said, 'Maybe we shouldn’t do that again.’” – Josh ([25:45])
• Overwhelmed by grace and knowledge: Josh is “flooded” with spiritual revelations and feels “downloads” of knowledge ([31:14]).
  • “Everything I could ever think about in my life and want to understand is coming to me... I said, stop, you’re going to kill me. It’s going to kill me.” – Josh ([32:00])
• Returns to reality: After the vision ends, he is left changed, fearful in a new, holy sense ([34:46]).

8. Reflections on Aftermath and Theological Meaning

• Immediate aftermath: Josh’s wife is frightened and bewildered; Josh is “scared to move,” stays up saying “hallelujah” for three days ([34:46]-[35:39]).
  • “For the next three days, I didn’t want to talk. I was scared to talk. That’s what the fear of God will do... the acknowledgment of his holiness, wonder and awe.” – Josh ([35:39])
• Distinguishing true reverence: Differentiates between servile fear and holy fear ([35:41]).
• Critical Comment on Modern Spirituality: Both Josh and Michael critique movements that glorify individual divinity or psychospiritual “self-creation.”
  • “If it’s about you, you, you, you, you... you’re probably not on the right path.” – Michael ([36:14])
  • “He’s perverted everything that God has, took it for himself, and then made people afraid of certain things that God had created for people. And he kicked Jesus out of it... everything’s gotten perverted.” – Josh ([36:54])
• Central theological image: The Cross as the axis mundi, the unavoidable center of reality ([37:16]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The spirit world is happening right now, while we’re sitting here talking.” – Josh ([18:58])
• “Who says I can't take your life whenever I want?” – Voice in Josh’s heart ([05:33])
• “He puts his arm around me. He said, ‘This one’s mine. He belongs to me.’” – Josh ([24:17])
• “Maybe we shouldn’t do that again.” – Jesus to Josh, in vision ([25:45])
• “We’re tired of this kid. He keeps coming into our kingdom, taking people out. And then he came back and ate off our table.” – Demon accusation ([12:36])
• “If it’s about you, you, you… you’re probably not on the right path.” – Michael ([36:14])
• “You’re the one that came for me. No one else… It was you.” – Josh ([27:10])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:53] – Josh explains his Christian devotion and context for considering mushrooms
• [04:55] – Arrival of malevolent spiritual presence after friend leaves
• [05:33] – Internal “rebuke” about mortality (“Who says I can’t take your life…”)
• [07:54] – Realization of spiritual consequence; prayer for forgiveness
• [09:15] – Physical and spiritual crisis, calls wife for help
• [10:45] – Vision of hand, demons, and tower of light (kingdom of heaven)
• [12:36] – Demonic accusation in the heavenly courts
• [15:10] – Sensation of fear, despair, and spiritual exposure
• [18:58] – Philosophical discussion about body-soul unity
• [22:17] – “Receive the Holy Spirit” and beginning of divine intervention
• [24:17] – Deliverance: Jesus touches Josh, ending the ordeal
• [25:45] – Jesus’ personal admonition: “Maybe we shouldn’t do that again.”
• [32:00] – Overwhelmed by divine revelation (“Downloads”)
• [34:46] – Aftermath; Josh’s wife’s reaction & lingering holy fear
• [35:41] – Distinction between types of spiritual fear
• [36:54] – Theological reflections on society’s spiritual perversions

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Conclusion

This episode provides a raw, detailed account of a life-changing psychedelic experience as interpreted through devout Christian faith. It is a cautionary tale about spiritual pride, the dangers of mixing psychedelics with religious seeking, and the inescapable centrality of Christ’s grace. Throughout the gripping narrative, Michael Knowles and Josh bring together personal testimony, scriptural parallels, and philosophical analysis, offering listeners both a warning and profound reflection on the mysteries of faith, repentance, and the ever-present reality of the spiritual realm.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

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[Josh]

Just set me up and he was used as a vessel and had no idea he walks out the door. The second he walked out the door, there was like this transfer. I feel it tangibly come in the room. I said, oh, I know that presence, but I just got set up here. Which you did, 100%. Started to feel like my spirit was wanting to go somewhere. I said, you took mushrooms. I said, it's all right. You're gonna be okay. I said, you can't die. And the second I said, you can't die, I heard a voice speak in my heart. He says, I can't take your life whenever I want. And I said, you what, Josh? I said, maybe because you were on heroin and all this other stuff, what if now that you're clean, you haven't done hard drugs in a few years, maybe now you can take mushrooms. It's natural. I'm not talking about acid. I'm talking about mushrooms because they're natural. And now you could probably connect with Jesus in a better way. You know, this relationship isn't as supernatural as it was in the beginning.

[Michael Y]

Yeah, you're losing your. Yeah, your tolerance is growing, let's say.

[Josh]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Y]

You're not feeling that high.

[Josh]

Yep. And so I said, maybe mushrooms will do the trick. And not only for that, but also maybe I can get some answers for other people. Because I'm encountering this question all the time about people doing psychedelics and seeing it be a thing. I said, you know, God, my heart is to, like. Like, I put my heart before God. Of, like, look like, this is where I'm at. I Said I kind of feel like doing it. And, you know, I said, worst case scenario, I find out it's not good. And, you know, you know, I, I don't do it anymore. Yeah, well, the thing about it is that, you know, and I say, I, I, I say this as, as humble as possible. Like, I, when I say I was in it, I mean, like, I really was sold out. I was living right. I wasn't like a Christian that was dabbling in sin and, and the world and going to church. I mean, I literally was. My life was dedicated to this. Like, that's all I, I thought about. That's all I did. And, and, you know, like, I didn't have a life. That was my life. And so, like. And so it wasn't like, oh, I was already slipping away or something. And so basically, months pass, and so one night I go to my friend's house and we're gonna make music. And while he's loading up the beat and everything. And this was a friend of mine that. It was like, the one of, like, two friends that I had that. The old friends that I didn't completely cut off. But it wasn't, you know, it was more just like, I would make music with them. I still loved them. So it's like I'd keep my distance, but show up. And so anyways, he dumps out his backpack of chocolate mushrooms right over the bed, right in front of me. And he basically was like, here. You know what I mean? Here, try one. You know what I mean? And now the thoughts of what I was thinking the last few months pop up. And so I said, you know what, Josh? I said, I'm tired of the. Internally, I'm like, you know what? I'm tired of there being fear with this. I just want to face this. I don't like the fear. There's this fear of I shouldn't do this. And I didn't like that. You know, like I said, you know, I don't like fear. I'm gonna confront this. I'm gonna take it. I said, it's now or never. I'm not gonna sit here and think about it anymore. I was tired of processing it in my mind. I just wanted to try it. And I said, you know, people get.

[Michael Y]

So sick of the anxiety and the hemming and hawing and the moral conscience telling you, no, no, no, that you think, well, here's one way I can shut up that moral conscience. I'm just gonna do it, and then I won't have that anxiety of anticipation anymore.

[Josh]

Yeah, that was. I think that's probably what it was. It was like, you know what? If you don't do it tonight, it's just gonna bother you. So, yeah, so I did it and I ate. It was a, you know, eighth of mushrooms. And just for context, like, that was the normal dose that I would take. That was like a normal, like, go to dose. It's definitely on the higher end as far as, like, when you're looking at microdosing and stuff, it's a lot lower than that. But I had taken much larger doses, too. I had taken, you know, double of everything. Yeah. And so to me, it was like, this is kind of mild, right? That's how I'm thinking. And so I take it, and it starts off good. The first 20 minutes, I'm just getting in my vibe and, you know, and just listening to music, and it's all good vibes and good thoughts, and I'm happy, and it's gonna be good. And then at one point, my friend says, hey, these guys want to go to the bar. Do you want to come? I said, no. I said, what do you. I just. When I was eight, I don't want to go to the bar. And so he said, well, I'm gonna go. You can stay here if you want. That's fine. Is that cool? I said, all right, I guess I'm stuck here now, you know, kind of thing. And so he leaves. And this stuff, it takes, like, probably 30 minutes to kick in. So in the meantime, you start kind of feeling your stomach will start to turn. There's like this pre. Almost anxiety kind of thing. Like, you feel it kind of starting to creep up on you. And so I already had to feel that. So I said, we're about to go into this. And so my friend, he walks out the door. The second he walked out the door, it was like that feeling of sleep paralysis. The feeling of, like, demons and evil walks in the room. It was like this transfer, like, he left. And it was. The first thing I noticed was if I feel like I just got set up unknowingly, I feel like my friend just set me up. And he was used as a vessel and had no idea completely not in his mind knowing what he was doing. But I just got set up here. Like, which you did 100%. And that was so clear, you know what I mean? Like, I was like, wow, I just got set up. And so he walks out, and Eve just walks in. Mind you, I have had demonic encounters as a Christian at this point, just. Just based off doing God's work and having demons come and attack me. And so I had cast out demons and all that kind of stuff. So I know this presence. I'm still, like, so 100% sober minded. Like, I'm 100% in my rational mind. I feel it tangibly come in the room. I said, oh, I know that presence. And so I said, oh, no, this isn't good. And so. But I'm like, all right, I know how mushrooms work. I'm gonna stay positive, keep my mind right. This. You know, if I feed into this, it's gonna get worse. I start ignoring it. I said, I'm good. And I go into the bathroom, and I'm talking, I'm cheering, I'm giving myself a pep talk in the mirror. And I said, josh, I said, you took mushrooms. I said, it's all right. You're gonna be okay. I said, you can't die. And the second I said, you can't die, I heard a voice speak in my heart the same way I always have heard God speak to me. Cross check everything and says, who says I can't take your life whenever I want? Who says? Like, like. And it wasn't in a way of, like, anger. It was. It was a checking of my pride. Like, who says I just can't stop your heart whenever I want? Like, what do you mean you can't die? I could just do it now, right? Like, for no reason, you could just drop, right? So it was like, oh, I could die. You know, like, this could be it. And. And so then I started being like, oh, wow, this isn't good. I started feeling like, all right, I need to start repenting. So I started praying. And it was like, as soon as I started to pray and started to ask God to help me, it just. I felt like I just was getting. Just Like a dark cloud was just coming around me. I could tangibly feel it. I could feel it, like, closing in on me. And I'm like. But I'm. I'm still in this, like, state of, like, it's gonna be okay. You're good. And I'm like, you know what, Jesus, forgive me. You know how we think. Like, oh, I messed up. Oh, Lord, forgive me. And we're good. Yeah.

[Michael Y]

Yeah.

[Josh]

So it's like, forgiveness doesn't equate to consequence. So it's like the consequences were still there. And then I realized, oh, no. I opened this door. I know better. I'm not a baby. I'm, you know, a young child. And God, I knew better. And so now it's all hitting me like, oh, what'd you do? Like, this is. And you just open this door. This is. And you're going to be stuck in this place. Because now I know I already have my spiritual eyes open, sober minded in the natural. So now that I'm spiritually awake and not dead in sin, now when I actually open that veil, it's not going to be nothing. It's going to be clear. I'm going to know what it is now. And so I started praying and I'm just feeling like death encompassed me. And that's what it talks about in Psalm 18. Death encompassed me, you know, and that's what it feels like. And I called my wife and I said she was out with friends at dinner. I said, you need to come get me. She had no idea what I was doing. I didn't even. I wasn't planning this. Right.

[Michael Y]

I can't imagine she would have approved.

[Josh]

Yeah, yeah. And she said she doesn't know. And it's starting to get worse. As before, like leading up to when she got there, it started to feel like something was pulling. Like, started to feel like my spirit was wanting to go somewhere. I can't explain it. It's like it felt like the light was flickering within. Like it was like someone's pulling me somewhere. And so it was like she. By the time she gets there, I'm in the. I'm not able to really function at this point. I couldn't breathe well. And so she's trying to talk, like she thinks this is just normal. Josh coming in the car, like, hey, why couldn't anyone drive? And I said, I can't talk right now. I said, just pray. I said, just pray for me. I didn't even have time to explain to her what was going on. By this point. I. I was. I couldn't breathe. It was like I was. And she's even like, she's like, what's wrong? Like. Cause I'm like, I'm gasping for breath and I'm feeling my body, like, go, get. Go in and out. It's like I'm here talking to you. And the next thing you know, it's like, boom. Snapped into like a dream realm. It's like in and out, like in and out of consciousness. And then. But it would be a black void. So we're going through this whole car ride and every now and then I would try to, like, tell her, like, just, I can't talk right now. You know, I'm like, over like 30 minutes I give her the story, like, oh, I took mushrooms all right, you know, and so I get home. By the time I get home, it was just full, like it was just fully on. I run into my room, I lay on the floor and at this point I'm just getting pulled, like I'm feeling my soul just get pulled out of my body. And so I'm in this dark like void and next thing I know there starts to be like sight coming to it because it's just a abyss of blackness. And so I'm sitting there and all of a sudden I realize I'm in this giant hand. So I'm in this hand and then I see demons right in front of me. And it's all the same demons I seen in that one Overdose. It's like, like I don't know if they were the exact same ones, but they looked the same.

[Michael Y]

It was the same breed.

[Josh]

Same breed, yeah. Except this time there was like taller ones. Like it was like they were the ones in charge. Like they were, they were higher ranking ones. So I'm in this hand and now I'm in another reality. And now fear's like, what is going on? Where am I? What is. The first thing that hits you is you're helpless. That's the, I think the first thing that really got me even before this happened, like up to this point, it's knowing like what. Who are you going to call? Like what are you going to do? You know, it's not like when you're a kid you call your mom to help you and you know, like there is nothing you can do. The hospital can't help you. This is, you know what I mean? Like this is, there's nothing you can do right now. So you're just helpless.

[Michael Y]

Yeah.

[Josh]

So I'm in this, you know, I'm in this hand and I'm seeing these demons. And so the one stands up and, and, and then I'm looking like my attention, once that one stands up, I like, my attention diverts. And now it was like this, this light tower. Like it was like this thing if it was just tilted up and just lights just with no walls but you could see just a big light beam tower kind of thing with different colors. And I knew that was like the kingdom of heaven. And then I knew that I was in outer darkness of some sort. I was in this in between place. And so now this demon's stepping forward and he's presenting a case to this tower. And he said, we're tired of this kid. He keeps coming into our kingdom, taking people out. And then he came back and ate off our table. And it hit me right then and there, you're an evangelist, you're winning souls for Jesus all the time. You really are coming into, you know, and I would, I'd go into, you know, wherever, inner cities, wherever, any neighborhood and just preach Jesus, talk about Jesus, get people saved, you know what I mean?

[Michael Y]

But you could bring a thousand people into the church and you could wind up in the bad place.

[Josh]

Uh huh, 100%.

[Michael Y]

What a phrase. He keeps taking souls, helping souls out of here, but then he comes and eats from our table. Peter Kreeft, the theologian, philosopher, he says that abortion is the demonic inversion of the Eucharist. The Eucharist, the priest holds up the consecrated host and says, recites the word of our Lord, says, this is my body which will be given up for you. And what abortion does is, uses the same words to a diabolically opposite end, which is, this is my body, this is my body. I won't save, I'll kill for my body. It's a totally new version of. And even this idea of the Eucharist is manna from heaven. That's what you're seeing, the figure of the Eucharist in the manna that comes down and saves the Israelites, gives them bread to eat. And we now have this in the Holy Communion. And as you said earlier, this idea that no man, you know, what if the mushrooms are the act? That's kind of like the manna. But the demons are telling you in this trip, they're saying that's our food.

[Josh]

From our table that he's eating 100%. And that was, I mean like that was the crux of the whole thing for me. Because at that point the thing about the spirit realm is you don't need a lot of words to get a lot of revelation. And nothing is spoken. This is all telepathically. It's just known in the spirit, nothing is hidden. All things. When nothing is hidden from the light, right? Like so in the spirit, everything is just, it's out on the open. You don't have money to hide behind. You don't have a facade, you don't have your, your. Everything that you try to ignore is there whether you like it or not. And it's seen. And so it was that moment of being naked before everything, of me being a hypocrite in that moment, me backsliding me, whatever I was, everything was there. Oops, oops. And now it was a matter of I'm in this hand that I can't just get out of this. All right, see you later, guys. This is serious. I was in the courts of heaven. I mean, it was literally. They were presenting a case against me to God. And so I'm sitting there, now I'm freaking out in the sense that I already was feeling my body, what was going on. It felt like everything was shriveling up. You know, it's like you could feel your organs drying up. Fear becomes a jacket. You like a living thing that comes around. You just despair. Just. I mean, every. Every negative, like, emotion feeling you could think of is there, and then it's heightened. And I felt like a slug if you pour salt on it. I felt my life literally just getting pulled out of me, shriveling up while I'm in this hand. I feel my breath just getting pulled out of me. And mind you, in real time, you feel like you're connected to your physical body. So I'm still like, 5, 10% aware of what's happening in my body. And every 10, 15, my wife's freaking out. And during this time, she's freaking out. She doesn't know what to do. She thinks, should I call hospitals? What should I do? But I know what's going on. So I'm telling her, just pray for me. Just keep praying. I was like, just pray. And then I'd get pulled back into. And I'd be in this reality.

[Michael Y]

And so, because you're not in physical danger of death any more than any of us is at any given moment. If you were on heroin or something, you would have been in physical danger of death. But as you said, consciously, you said, these are mushrooms. Mushrooms. At this dose, they're not gonna kill you. God tells you, well, I can stop your heart whenever I want. But that's different. It's not the mushroom. If your wife had said, hey, you're high on heroin or something, and you said, well, don't call the doctors, she probably would have just called the doctors anyway, because poisons going. But what you're saying is. No, my danger right now, though, I feel it physically. The danger that I'm in right now is a spiritual danger for sure.

[Josh]

And I mean, to be honest with you, to this day, I don't know how, like, if it was just spiritually, I would have died. Or, like, it felt physical. That's the thing. Physically, my body was. Was not functioning like, physically, it felt physical. And the reason I say that is because people get this idea that, like. Like. Like I said, like, oh, you can't die from this. You can die from that. There's, you know, this. This spiritual realm is what is really deciding the physical realm. So it's like that was a major infraction.

[Michael Y]

Go to expressvpn.com Michael M, I, C H, A, E, L letter Y, letter T. It is ironic when you think about it. You got millions of military members have fought for our freedom, and yet we're losing more privacy every single day. Our phones are listening. Tech companies are tracking everything. It's all totally legal. All right. We need to make sure that we take our privacy and our property very seriously. That's one of the many reasons I use ExpressVPN. Absolutely adore ExpressVPN. We right now, you can get the VPN that I trust. Very simple. One button. It's good on all your devices, your phone, your tablet, your computer. You are protected. Even a Luddite like me can use it. Head on over right now to expressvpn.com if you want to fight for your freedom from home, ExpressVPN is one of the best tools you're going to have. Find out how you can get four months for free by scanning the QR code on screen, clicking the link in the description box below, or by going to expressvpn.com michaely or that is expressvpn.com michael@y Letter T. The technical language for this is that the matter is just like the stuff. And the spiritual realm is the form. It's the substantial. Like our soul is the substantial form of our body. And so people try to really neatly separate these two things, but that's not really how it works. You are your soul, you are your body. Those things are together inseparably for now in this world. And so to try to say, well, no, that's just happening to my spirit. It has no effect on my body, or this is just happening to my body. What are you talking about? You're both.

[Josh]

So that's like one of the greatest mysteries I'm not gonna get into right now. But that's. I mean, that's the mystery of it all, or not even really the mystery that's the truth behind it is that that's like the spirit world is happening right now while we're sitting here talking. So that's what the first thing it showed me was. My body's literally laying there. My soul is literally in the spirit realm. So this is happening right now. So when you see people physically going through something, you don't know what is happening. Spiritually, a lot of times, right? So anyways, this is happening. So I'm feeling this whole thing going on in my body. I'm literally losing breath. I'm crying out for God to have mercy. But I'm thinking at this point, like, God heard me by now, like, either he forgives me or he doesn't. So I'm kind of like. I started to give up because it was exhausting me. It was physically, like, it was giving me. Like, it was taking all my strength to speak, to say, God, have mercy, Forgive me. I just felt the longer I was in this hand, the more I was. Life was getting pulled out of me. And at one point, I started to give up. I said, you know what, Jesus, forgive me. I made a big mistake. I'm a sinner. I believe in you for my salvation. I said, I'm letting go. Like, I'm going to give up. I'm done fighting this thing right now. And so I started to relax, and I started to. But I'm still going through turmoil. But I started to think about. My wife was pregnant at the time. I have another kid. I started to think about that, and I said, no, I can't. I said, God, I said, you know what? It's not about me. I said, my kid needs me. And so that hit me. That was. The next thing that happened was, oh, these people need me. So I said, God, just save me for them, you know? And so at that moment, I started to feel almost a slight, like, pressure release. And then I started to notice that at the top of the tower, like, it was like, I couldn't look at it. I knew, you know, it's the glory of God was up there. I couldn't. I couldn't go look at it. I knew it was there, but I could see the rest of the tower, and I could see that the source of that tower was at the top of it. That was giving life to the rest of it. And all of a sudden, breath started coming. Like, I could see, like, a little breath would hit me, and then I'd feel it hit me and be like. And then in that moment, I said, every breath that I get, he's literally giving it to me. He's aware that he's giving it to me, consciously giving it to me. And it was like. It was like I would get the breath and I would make it last because it was like there was space in between. It wasn't like I could just, like, how we could breathe now just as freely as we want. I couldn't Breathe freely. I was breathing according to the like.

[Michael Y]

And it's a beautiful metaphor. And of course, as we're speaking here, there's really no such thing as a metaphor or literal. I mean, what we're saying is these two things intersect, physical and the metaphysical. And that you say you couldn't breathe, and then God gives you that breath. And this is the image of. That is what the Holy Spirit is, right? The bond of love between the Father and the Son and this procession of breath.

[Josh]

Breath, yeah. Psalm 33. That's what it literally says. It says, he spoke everything into existence. And then it says, his breath made man breathe and gave the being the host. I'm now witnessing this.

[Michael Y]

Receive the Holy Spirit. Christ says, right, breathe something.

[Josh]

Yeah, receive the Holy Spirit. And that's. So now I'm sitting with that. But it's like I start to get hope, because I didn't have hope at that point. Like, I was just kind of just. I didn't know what to think. It was just. I was just in pain and confusion, but also, like, just discomfort. So now I start to feel like maybe there's hope now. And so now the breath starts coming more fluidly, and I'm starting to, like, kind of ease up. Then all of a sudden, it was like this. This cloud of witnesses kind of came around, right? And the Bible talks about that. So these saints start coming out, and I knew they were praying for me. I just started to feel energy, love come from them. And as they began to pray for me, I started to feel more alive. And then all of a sudden, it was like a shadow of a cross came out the top of the tower. It was like a cross came out, and it was like the source of the top. His attention turned to it. And it was this. Because, like I said, everything's telepathically and, like, it's all connected. Like, you know what? Everything is kind of feeling and thinking, in a sense. So it's like I could feel God's attention turn to the cross and remember. And then all of a sudden, I look over and out of the tower. Jesus starts walking out. I see this man come walking towards me out into the center of this abyss. He puts his arm around me. He looks at everything, all the demons, he looks. He puts his arm around me. He said, this one's mine. He belongs to me. And as soon as he touched me, I went back to my body and began going through deliverance. Because Jesus can't touch you. And so everything that I had just allowed into my life, I literally Was puking like, I never had a painful vomit like that. I was puking my guts out, filling up garbage bags, little like shopping bags, which is common.

[Michael Y]

I mean, this is people. Maybe not as intensely as what you're describing, but people always talk about this really spiritual experience of ayahuasca. They all vomit a bunch. You think that doesn't seem so beautiful. And even the beauty of that image, though, where Christ walks out and touches you and you're back in the body, which is. It's an incarnational faith. The pivot of history is the Incarnation, the second person of the Trinity, Son of God into flesh. And he was incarnate of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary and becomes man. The fact that God the Son becomes man is this height, this perfection of the unity of physical and metaphysical. You think, no, the body actually does matter. We actually are these things. And you see this in the sacraments that he gives us. So this bread is my body. How do you make sense of it? It only makes sense in an incarnational faith. So the second he touches you. Oh, yeah, there's the body again. Oh, right. Oh, there I am.

[Josh]

You gave me a piece of it. Because the funny thing about this story is there's still so much that I'm still piece. Probably the rest of my life, I'll be piecing together parts of it. And so I go through deliverance. I collapse. I puke my guts out. I think it's over because I collapse. I feel kind of that release of like it's going to be okay, and I collapse. But now when I collapse on the floor, I. I go back, but this time I'm in that tower. And when I'm in the tower, now I'm in the light. I know the darkness is behind me. I'm looking at Jesus face to face, and it's like, hit. You don't see everything else. It's like everything else fades away like a cinematic, you know, on your iPhone. All I could see was his eyes. And his eyes were like. Like, almost like the Earth. Like, they were multiple colors. It wasn't just like, oh, they're blue or brown. It was like there were shades of green. There was shades of blue. It was just like they magnetically, like, pull you into him, and then it also simultaneously pulls itself into you. It's like this. Like this. So everything's just fading away. And it's just. He's staring in my eyes. He smiles at me. So he's smiling at me as if he's happy to see me. I'm thinking about what just happened, but he's looking at me as if. Like, he was happy to see me. And he said, maybe we shouldn't do that again. And he smiled at me like, I love you. And so in that moment, oh, man, it's like, what do you do with that in the moment? I'm receiving that, but I'm still stuck in what happened in the past, you know? But I'm also. Now scripture is flooding my mind. I'm thinking about Psalm 73. For whom do I have in heaven, but besides you, who do I desire on earth? Like, literally, Jesus is all we have in heaven. That, like, it's because of him. It's him alone. Like, we have nothing else on our side. There's nothing else. Like, he's. He's it. And so that's hitting me, like, oh, you're the. You're the one that came for me. No one else. There was no one else that could have came for me. It was you.

[Michael Y]

The saints are praying for you.

[Josh]

Right?

[Michael Y]

But he comes for you.

[Josh]

Yeah. And. But it's through him. So it was like, yeah, so that's all hitting me. And so he, like, starts, like, walking with me. But I started to notice because I'm looking around, and it wasn't like I was seeing everything as clear as I'm seeing this room. It was almost like there was a sheet over it. So everything was kind of veiled, but I could see it so I could make out, oh, this is this kind of color. Oh, there's a being there. So I'm seeing light beings kind of, and I'm seeing that there's stuff around, there's life around. But I'm sensing that things like. That these, like, angels or these saints, whatever they were, were kind of disappointed in me, not mad at me. But it was kind of just like, you knew better, Josh. Like, kind of thing. Like, you know, it wasn't in a shaming way. It was just like.

[Michael Y]

It's just what it is.

[Josh]

It just is what it was. It was just kind of like.

[Michael Y]

It's wild. I guess it shouldn't be wild that you describe it that way, because this is the scene in Dante's Divine Comedy in Paradise, something I'm always struck by when I. I love the poem. And when Dante gets up to heaven, he has wonderful conversations with these people, one of his ancestors, saints. And the object of his love. Well, the ultimate object of his love is God, but he is sort of channeling it through this beloved Beatrice. And Beatrice sends Virgil down on this mission to go pull Dante out of his midlife crisis and the wayward way and pull him down through the pits of hell, up through purgatory, up into heaven. But she's not nice to him. The first thing she says to him when she sees him at the end of purgatory, going into heaven is, she says, he's crying because Virgil goes away and Virgil's a pagan, can't go to heaven. And she says, stop crying. Non pian jere anko, non piangiran. Cora, cut it out. We gotta go. And then she goes up and she's fairly steely faced in heaven, and she's looking at God and he can see in the reflection of her eyes. That's how he's. He's looking at her eyes and he's seeing God reflected there. But she's not saying, oh, hey, buddy, good to see you. Oh, attaboy. She's saying, no, reality is what reality is. And I'm not gonna pray for you, but I'm not gonna sugarcoat it for you.

[Josh]

And that's what I think. Like, we get sometimes this idea that, like, angels in heaven and Jesus is like this teddy bear. Like, oh, you know, like. And it's like, they're serious. Jesus was about his Father's business. This is like a serious God's about his will being done. So it's like, this isn't a game, you know, it's like, why are we referred to as armies and sports players and, you know, like. And soldiers.

[Michael Y]

Church militant, right.

[Josh]

And so that was very clear to me. And so with that, I couldn't accept it. Like, shame just hit me all of a sudden and I took off. Like, it's like I took off. Where I was at, there was levels to it. There was different, like, dimensions of glory. Where he brought me was a higher one. I knew there was one or two above me, and I knew there was at least three or four under me. So when I looked down, I said, I'm going to the lowest part of heaven I could find. As low as I can. I want to stay here.

[Michael Y]

Good strategy, good advice and good strategy. Yeah.

[Josh]

So I took off. I mean, like, you think it and you just travel, you go, you're there. So next thing I know, I'm at the ground and I'm on my knees and I'm just worshiping. I didn't want to look at anything. I said, God, don't make me speak ever again. I'm not worthy to speak. I said, all I want to do is Worship. I said, just let me worship. And so that was like the next thing that. That 100% hit me of, you're giving me this breath. The only thing that I should do with it is give it back to you in a way that pleases you. So it's like, I don't really want to. Like, just let me worship. That's the only. That's the only heart response to what's going on right now and to where this. This realizing where I'm at. I'm not. I shouldn't be here. But then Jesus came down and he comforted me. You know, it was like this. This just moment of let it go. Like, just, you're here. Embrace it. So I started to ascend back with him, and then it was like I switched. I wasn't with him anymore. I was in this almost. This bubble of, like. Just, like, colors was, like, flying by me, and it was like downloads were just flooding through me. I felt like I was hooked up to a machine. You see people hooked up to those machines. They're like. Like, that's what it felt like. I felt like I was hooked up to this machine, and every question I had was just flooding through me to the point where I said, stop, you're going to kill me. It was like God's love and his wrath, his grace and everything was all mixed in one almost. It was like this. You're being too good to me. I don't deserve it. It was like, all and everything I want to know is coming to me. Everything I could ever think about in my life and wanting to understand is coming to me. I'm getting all this. It's just flooding me. I'm. It's just hitting all. All simultaneously in a matter of minutes. It's like, download, download, download down. Everything made sense. And I literally was crying out to stop. I said, stop. Show me this. Stop showing me this. It's going to kill me. It's going to kill me. It's going to kill me. And then next thing I know, I just. I'm. I just started. It started, like, lightening up, and then I'm back in my body, and it was just like, it's over. But I didn't really want it to be over now because now I'm like. It was like, all right.

[Michael Y]

Well, you see the same experience that you're describing when God's face passes by in Genesis, say, don't look directly. You will die if you look directly at the face of God. You can look at the back of his head. But this sense that you'll be overwhelmed because you're finite.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Michael Y]

And so you can't comprehend God, that's not gonna work. If he were totally comprehensible by you, he wouldn't be God and you wouldn't be you.

[Josh]

Right. No, I mean, it reminded me of, like, when Paul said, there's things I've seen, I can't tell you.

[Michael Y]

Yeah.

[Josh]

It's like.

[Michael Y]

And I see through a veil half darkly.

[Josh]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Y]

You're describing this veil. Right.

[Josh]

It was too much for my natural body to contain. And, you know, you reminded me of something when you're talking about Dante's Inferno. And I haven't talked about this really yet, but what was. Because I was baptized Russian Orthodox, which is, I think, very similar to Catholic faith. And somebody asked me, they're like, have you heard of the toll houses? And when I started looking into toll houses, I was like, I really feel like that's what I experienced, you know? And so I didn't get this till after. But it's. I think it's similar to, like, purgatory.

[Michael Y]

Hmm.

[Josh]

And that's what. So I've been looking at toll houses.

[Michael Y]

You won't get out until you pay the very last farthing. That sort of thing.

[Josh]

That's kind of how it felt. I mean, I don't know. I just. When I read about what toll houses are, I'm like, that's definitely what it seemed like I was going through. That's definitely what it felt like. Because there was a period of hell. It was a form of hell. Not the fullness of it, even the.

[Michael Y]

Description that you have, though, of the to. Of the trial. We're all in trials. That's what Jesus is. Led by the spirit into the desert to be tested into a trial. Lead me not into a trial. Lead me not into temptation. Deliver me from evil. So you come to your wife. Is there. Then what. How does the story end? I guess the story's still going on.

[Josh]

And she's freaked out, basically. She doesn't really know what to think. She's. And, you know, my wife didn't grow up in that world, so she doesn't see this. She doesn't. You know, she's just taking my word for it to just, like, calm down, relax, it's gonna be okay. Pray, whatever. Like, so she's just kinda like, oh, I'm glad it's over. I mean, what do you really say after that? You know, it's not like there was a significant, like, reaction. She was just freaked out. And she's like, that was scary, you know, and to this day, like, when this thing comes up, she's like, yeah, that was scary, you know, and she'll say that. And then I laid in bed and I was scared to move, you know, for the rest of the night, I stayed awake saying, hallelujah, Hallelujah, you know. And for the next three days, I didn't want to talk. I was scared to talk. I mean, that's what the fear of God will do. I mean, the fear of God got so deeply drilled into me and not. I'm scared of God. The acknowledgment of his holiness, wonder and awe.

[Michael Y]

Right. Servile fear is.

[Josh]

Yes.

[Michael Y]

Is different than holy. The holy fear is.

[Josh]

Exactly. And so that was the main takeaway from it. Like, God really is that holy. And that's so like that ties into this whole, you're your own God, you're your own divine. It's like that's what it.

[Michael Y]

All my friends have gotten sucked into this stuff. Whether we're talking about chemical or just spiritual or usually it's some kind of combination of the two. And it always seems to come down to, you're your own God and you can do whatever you want. You've got the power. And you, you, you, you, you think, ah, if it's about you, you, you, you, you're probably not on the right path, man.

[Josh]

Yeah, I agree. I think that. And that's, that's the, I think the big, like, difference to me is that God wants to create with us and Jesus is the center of everything. The whole, this, these whole other movements. They take everything that God intended for us to have and not everything, but some things. And they just kick Jesus out of it. So, you know, and it reminds me of that parable where the guys said, I'm going to send my helper to the vineyard to get my fruit. They beat him up, beat him up. I'll send my son. They said, oh, we'll kill him so we can inherit what belongs to him. That's literally what Satan has done. He's. He's perverted everything that God has, took it for himself and then made people afraid of certain things that God had created for people. And he kicked Jesus out of it. So it's like, you know, everything's gotten perverted.

[Michael Y]

I love the image of the cross as the axle on which the world turns, on which the universe turns. You know, that's just, that's where it all turns around. And you can deny that, but if you deny that, you're going to find yourself increasingly incoherent. And you can try to make a God of yourself. That's the primal temptation in the Garden of Eden, is you shall be as gods. But you're not going to end up as a God. You're going to end up destroyed, physically and spiritually.