"I Was Given To A Man When I Was A Child " Michael & The Sharia Survivor | Sabatina James

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: "I Was Given To A Man When I Was A Child" Michael & The Sharia Survivor | Sabatina James
Air Date: December 6, 2025
Host: Michael Knowles (The Daily Wire)
Guest: Sabatina James – author, human rights advocate, “Sharia Survivor”

Michael Knowles sits down with Sabatina James, an outspoken critic of political Islam and advocate for persecuted Christians, to hear her harrowing journey from a Pakistani village, through forced marriage and religious persecution, to finding freedom, faith, and a new calling in the West. The episode explores the realities of honor-based violence, the challenges of apostasy, the failures of Western institutions to support vulnerable refugees and converts, and the spiritual differences between Islam and Christianity. Sabatina shares candidly about European and American naïvete regarding Islamism, her organizational work, and her observations on faith communities in the West.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Sabatina’s Early Life in Pakistan and Forced Marriage Arrangements

[03:33 - 05:45, 22:00 - 25:15]

• Sabatina describes being born into a religious family in a small Pakistani village; her grandfather was an imam.
• At birth, she was promised in marriage to her cousin—a common practice in Pakistan to maintain control and “honor” within families.
  • “In my case, I was promised to my cousin when I was born… Extremely common in Pakistan.” (22:00, Sabatina)
• Honor-based violence and punishments for perceived offenses (e.g. women refusing arranged marriage, wearing lipstick, victims of rape often punished rather than perpetrators).

2. Moving to Austria: Culture Shock and First Encounters with Christianity

[05:05 - 10:40]

• Sabatina emigrates to Austria as a child, shocked by Western norms (e.g., women having children out of wedlock and not facing violence).
• Striking contrast between how victims are treated in her native culture vs. Christianity’s reverence for Jesus’ own suffering.
  • “The most striking difference between the world shaped by Muhammad and the world shaped by love.” (09:21, Sabatina)
• Seeds of her later conversion were sown by seeing Jesus on the cross everywhere.

3. Life in European Muslim Communities & Demographic Change in the West

[14:00 - 19:21]

• Transition from Catholic Austria to more diverse German-speaking cities, where Muslim populations were increasing.
• Observations on Muslim “parallel societies,” expansion of Islamic education, declining native birthrates, and policies of cultural accommodation.
  • “Muslims don’t need jihad to conquer the West. They just need the West to keep apologizing for who they are while they push their agenda.” (15:46, Sabatina)
• Accusations of “Islamophobia” as a tool to silence dissent and criticism.

4. The Reality of Sharia, Apostasy, and Forced Conformity

[11:11 - 13:48, 19:55 - 21:12, 68:04 - 69:21]

• Sabatina describes the doctrinal hostility in Islam towards Christianity, apostasy, and freedom of conscience.
  • “The Prophet Muhammad said: whoever changes his religion, kill him.” (19:55, Sabatina)
• Apostasy is punishable by death under Sharia. Converts are customarily given a few days to recant under threat.
  • “Normally you get three days. That’s Sharia law... If they don’t, then you kill them.” (01:58, Sabatina)
  • This warning was delivered to Sabatina in person, by family and a religious scholar, after her conversion.

5. Sabatina’s Struggle for Autonomy and Encounter with Christian Faith

[24:08 - 47:35]

• As a teen in Austria, Sabatina’s “integration” into local life provoked conflict: swim/theatre classes, friendships with boys.
  • “Every little freedom that everyone around me had, I had to fight for. And unfortunately, there was always a lot of violence in my family.” (24:55, Sabatina)
• After returning “home” for a supposed vacation, she was imprisoned, enrolled in a madrasa, and forced into engagement with her cousin.
• Return to Austria leads to further struggles, culminating in her meeting with “Joseph,” an evangelical Christian who introduces her to the Bible.
• Her conversion: internal wrestling between the cost of following Jesus and love for her family:
  • “Jesus was a God of challenge, either all or nothing. For a lot of Muslims... you lose everything... It’s like suicide.” (57:09, Sabatina)

6. Comparing Jesus and Muhammad—Theological and Human Contrasts

[51:10 - 54:03]

• Sabatina highlights the differences in how Jesus and Muhammad handle sinners, enemies, and violence:
  • “An adulterous woman is brought to Muhammad—stoning. The same is brought to Jesus—mercy… Muhammad said ‘kill the infidels,’ Jesus says 'love your enemies.'” (52:44, Sabatina)
• She finds spiritual resonance in Christianity’s compassion and sacrificial love, distinguishing it from the legalism and violence of her upbringing.

7. Rejection, Homelessness, and Finding Spiritual Home

[63:34 - 76:09]

• Family disowns Sabatina; her mother: “If I had known you’d become like this, I would have killed you when you were an infant.” (64:23, Sabatina, emotional moment)
• Sabatina becomes homeless, recounts support from shelters, social workers, and evangelical Christians who studied Islam to support new converts (contrasted with Catholic indifference encountered).
• Repeatedly exposed to violence, legal manipulations (falsified marriage), ongoing threats from family.

8. Public Advocacy, Foundation Work, and Ongoing Threats

[77:16 - 87:31, 90:54 - 93:24]

• Sabatina establishes a foundation aiding victims of forced marriage, apostasy, and persecution—particularly Christian converts in Muslim societies.
• Returns to Pakistan undercover to aid victims, despite imminent mortal danger.
  • “There can be no courage without vulnerability. You need to make yourself vulnerable for the sake of truth.” (134:33, Sabatina)
• Operation Moses, rescuing Christian and Hindu girls abducted and forced to convert.

9. The Condition of Christianity in the West—Therapeutic, Self-Focused, Weak

[97:38 - 99:40, 106:09]

• Critique of the Western church’s comfort, self-focus, and lack of sacrificial love.
  • “The persecuted live for Jesus. The church in the West lives for themselves—with Jesus.” (98:12, Sabatina)
• Disconnect between the realities of the persecuted church and western complacency.

10. Western Naïveté and the Parallel Societies Problem

[113:13 - 117:32, 121:36 - 123:11]

• Americans' good-natured optimism and ignorance toward realities of radical Islam.
  • “Dear Americans, I love you. But you are probably the most inclusive and the most naive people on planet Earth.” (113:20, Sabatina)
• Normalization of Sharia-based parallel systems in Europe, including honor-based justice, happening now in US immigrant communities.

11. The Political Project: Islamism, Leftist Coalition, and the West’s Response

[119:58 - 127:40]

• Why leftists and Islamists make common cause: mutual opposition to Christianity.
  • “They have a common enemy, which is Christianity. That’s what multiculturalism is at its core.” (120:03, Sabatina)
• Analysis of New York Mayor Mamdani as a case study: “will work for the furtherment of Islam, not the people who voted for him.” (123:49, Sabatina)
• The mistaken assumption that American Muslims will automatically assimilate.

12. The Cost and Call to Action

[134:04-end]

• Suffering, vulnerability, and courage as necessary to defend truth and faith.
• A call for Western churchgoers to pray and stand up for the persecuted, not just “live for themselves.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On arranged marriage/honor violence:
  “I come from a culture where girls are killed over wearing a lipstick… People can't wrap their head around this.” (24:55, Sabatina)

• On seeing Christ on the cross:
  “The first revelation of Christianity to me... was Jesus on the cross present in every classroom… That to me was the most striking difference between the world shaped by Muhammad and the world shaped by love.” (09:21, Sabatina)

• On European accommodation:
  “Muslims don't need jihad to conquer the West. They just need the west to keep apologizing for who they are while they push their agenda.” (15:46, Sabatina)

• On American naivete:
  “But you are probably the most inclusive and the most naive people on planet Earth.” (113:20, Sabatina)

• On Western Christianity:
  “The persecuted live for Jesus. The church in the west lives for themselves—with Jesus.” (98:12, Sabatina)

• On the difference between Christ and Muhammad:
  “An adulterous woman is brought to Muhammad, stoning. The same is brought to Jesus, mercy. Muhammad said, kill the infidels wherever you find them. Jesus says, love your enemies.” (52:44, Sabatina)

• On the naivete toward parallel societies:
  “America today is like what Europe was 15 years ago. And I think America is going to go down quicker because there’s a greater naivete.” (121:36, Sabatina)

• On courage and vulnerability:
  “There can be no courage without vulnerability. You need to make yourself vulnerable for the sake of truth.” (134:33, Sabatina)

• On standing with the persecuted:
  “Every family should make it a habit to say at least one Our Father for the persecuted church every single day.” (107:43, Sabatina)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [03:33] Sabatina’s background: Birth, family, early arrangement to cousin
• [09:21] Examining the difference between societies shaped by Islam/Muhammad and Christianity/Christ
• [19:55] On apostasy, Sharia, and threats enforced by family/religious authority
• [24:55] Culture of honor violence in Pakistan
• [35:10] Western human rights movements' failure to address radical Islam’s abuses
• [47:06] Sabatina receives a Bible, begins spiritual journey to Christianity
• [52:44] Contrasting teachings and examples of Muhammad and Jesus
• [64:23] Emotionally charged account of being disowned and threatened by her mother
• [77:16] Launching her foundation for persecuted Christians and forced marriage victims
• [87:31] Undertaking dangerous humanitarian missions in Pakistan
• [98:12] Diagnosis of Western Christianity’s self-focus
• [113:20] Calling out American naivete toward Islam
• [134:33] On the necessity of vulnerability and courage to be a “peacemaker”
• [107:43] Concrete call for Western Christians to pray for the persecuted

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Final Reflections

This episode provides a raw and powerful look into the realities of forced marriage, honor violence, apostasy, and the deep spiritual and cultural divides between Islamic and Western societies, as lived by Sabatina James. It challenges the West’s self-image and complacency regarding religious freedom, identity, and the responsibilities of Christian solidarity. Sabatina’s story and her advocacy demand a more honest engagement, not just with the threat of radical Islam in the West, but also with the authentic demands of faith and sacrifice.

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Transcript

[Michael]

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[Sabatina James]

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[Michael]

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[Sponsor Voice]

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[Michael]

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[Sponsor Voice]

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[Michael]

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[Sabatina James]

I was born in a little village in Pakistan. In my case, I was promised to my cousin when I was born there, in that living room of my parents, my mother and my father, and a Muslim, so scholarly person. And my cousin from Pakistan, they had invited him to come over. And you know how they did that? They adopted him as their son to.

[Michael]

Get around the immigration.

[Sabatina James]

Yes. So he was adopted. The Muslim scholar, he folded his hands, said, you know what happens in Islam when you leave the religion? And I knew what happens. It's the death penalty. Normally you get three days. That's Sharia law. You get three days to recant. It's torturing the convert so that he can become Muslim again. And if they don't, then you kill them. Please don't let us do what we have to do. Otherwise.

[Michael]

A Muslim mayor in New York, Muslim mayor in London, whole Muslim towns in America, in the Midwest, in Michigan, in Minnesota. As Islam spreads throughout the West, Europe, the United States, many people are scratching their heads. They don't seem to know what we're dealing with, myself included. Which is why I am so pleased to sit down today with Sabatina James, who has experienced Islam firsthand in Pakistan, in Europe, and all of the attendant death threats. A forced marriage, living as a refugee, or a fugitive. Sabatina, thank you so much for being here. Your story is unbelievable. Unfortunately, it has to be believed. You're born in Pakistan, Muslim. You end up in Austria and Germany, put into a forced marriage, refusing a forced marriage with your cousin.

Converting to Christianity. Take us back to the beginning.

[Sabatina James]

I was born in a little village in Pakistan. My grandfather was an imam. And from the very early age, I grew up hearing his voice through the minarets, calling people to prayer five times a day. And he was always very proud of me because I was a very eager student of the Quran. Nothing mattered to me more than going to paradise. And I knew from the early beginning that the only direct way to paradise is to die for Allah in killing the infidels, that was what everyone believed. It was nothing special. But I tried to please Allah. I mean, I was a child. I just tried to please Allah with respect. Reading the Quran in Arabic without understanding it. That's how most Muslims read the Quran. Because the Quran is not like the Bible where we read the Bible. It's God's word. We try to understand it, but we read the Quran in order to memorize it.

[Michael]

Because I think most people think that the Quran is just. It's like the Bible, you know, I guess it's in Arabic and it's, you know, the Muslim version. Basically. It's the same thing.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah. No. No, it is not. But I learned the Quran in Arabic, read the whole thing by the age of 10.

And. Yeah. And my father was already in Austria, and he used to come to visit us, I think, about every year or two. And I have two brothers and a sister. And. Yeah. Then I came to Austria as a little child and was completely shocked with the two worlds. And I remember having one of these neighbors who.

Had a child, a daughter, and she had children and she wasn't married. And I just couldn't wrap my head around this.

[Michael]

How does that even happen?

[Sabatina James]

Yeah, because in Pakistan, they would have soaked her in gasoline and set her alight or buried them alive, as happened recently in Pakistan, five women were buried alive just because they refused the arranged marriage that their family had chosen for them. They wanted to marry men of their own choices. Three of them were actually teenagers. So this stuff happens every single day. We just don't hear about this in the west because you can't point out all these human rights violations without the accusation of malice and Islamophobia.

[Michael]

Islamophobia, that's always the word.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah. I mean, Mamdani talked about Islamophobia Right. Throughout his whole campaign. Right. It's just Unbelievable. Here's a guy whose mom is an Oscar nominated filmmaker, dad is professor at Columbia, he's mayor of New York, and he's whining about Islamophobia.

[Michael]

He's the victim.

[Sabatina James]

He's the victim.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

And I love how he was actually talking about some of his aunts, I think.

[Michael]

Yes. Who Zarafui, I think, is what he.

[Sabatina James]

Called that is the funniest thing that she's so terrified taking the train or something because, you know, the vicious New Yorkers would just come and probably attack her. And I'm going, you know, I wouldn't understand if the New Yorkers, the Christians would say that and say, I'm so scared going out because there are Muslims here and they, you know, and they just killed about 3,000 of our people.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

But they don't do that.

[Michael]

You know what's very strange in New York, I'm in New York, originally New York, on 9 11. After 9 11, the public opinion of Islam in America increased. It's not that it decreased. It's not that there was Islamophobia. It was totally the opposite. There was more Islamophilia.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah, I know.

[Michael]

But it seemed like a lot of Americans still seems like it today. Don't really seem to know what Islam is, what political Islam's goals are, what any of it means.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So you're in Austria.

[Sabatina James]

Yes.

[Michael]

You're confused as to why your neighbor wasn't burned alive for having a child out of wedlock.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah.

[Michael]

How old are you at this point?

[Sabatina James]

I was about 9 or 9 or 10. Yeah. So. Yeah. And so this village where we landed was very Catholic. We were the only Pakistani Muslim family there. And they were very proud of their faith. And the one thing, the first thing you notice coming, the first revelation of Christianity to me, anyways, was Jesus on the cross present in every classroom. You go hiking, that's a big thing in Austria. Right. And all the trails, you go to people's houses. In the living rooms you would have the cross. And so they were really very proud. And it certainly. The first seeds were sown there for my later conversion. Because when I was in Dedar, where I grew up in this little village, you know, I used to hear the voices of women. They would cry out aloud because they were beaten by their husbands.

And the reason they would scream so loud is they wanted help. Police doesn't come. So they're expecting the villagers to help. And the villagers would come, but they would surround the victim and accuse her.

And when I came to Austria, in this little village.

Every morning in the classroom.

The children would surround someone who was beaten and, and bruised and they would look up to the victim and pray to him because that was Jesus on the cross. And that to me was the most striking difference between the world shaped by Muhammad and the world shaped by love.

So that was. I always found that very fascinating because I think somehow even without.

Understanding the theology of Christianity.

Jesus on the cross fascinated me. And to this day I don't need theological books. Just looking and gazing at him on the cross. That to me is Christianity.

[Michael]

So you're 9 or 10 years old, you have this revelation. Yeah, it's a very tangible one. It's Christ on the cross.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Do you think, well maybe I'll leave Islam, maybe I'll become Christian?

[Sabatina James]

No way.

It just was this little seas. I was fascinated by it. But no, I was still very proud to be a Muslim. And I read the Quran. And the.

Thing is, in Islam we do not believe in the core teachings of Christianity, the crucifixion, the resurrection and divinity of Jesus.

We don't believe in it.

[Michael]

You know this is fascinating because a lot of people who I think are struggling to understand Islam, they seem to think that there's a lot of affinity. So sometimes you see this on the Internet, they'll say, oh, Islam is actually very nice and reverent about Christ or Our lady and. But I remember I read the Quran when I was young, not as young as you. And I remember the denial of the crucifixion which made me think about the letter to the Philippians. I think it's the letter to the Philippians where St. Paul writes, There are many walking now and I tell you, even weeping, who are enemies of the cross of Christ. I always found that to be interesting. What is it about being an enemy of the cross of Christ? And of course the cross is where Christ conquers death.

[Sabatina James]

Exactly. And the thing is.

Islam considers the belief in the Trinity as the greatest sin because it's called shirk associating partners with Allah. And I mean people don't have. It's actually frightening how little Christians know about what Islam teaches about them.

[Michael]

What does it teach?

[Sabatina James]

Surah 98, verse 6, that Christians are among the worst of creatures.

And they have three options. They can either convert to Islam, then they are safe, or they can.

If they don't convert to Islam they can pay the jizya which is a tax for being non Muslims. And if they don't, they have to be fought. And Jesus in Islam.

He will return and he will break the crosses, and he will kill all the pigs. And the most influential Quran commentators say that this means the end of Christianity. Jesus will come to fight against Christianity, and he will fight for the sake of Islam.

[Michael]

That's not quite the Jesus we find in the Bible or history or.

Known by the people who knew him in his sojourn on earth and their disciples. So there's a great hostility, obviously, to Christianity in Islam.

[Sabatina James]

Yes.

[Michael]

Which you're aware of as you're in Austria, of encountering Christ on the cross for the first time.

[Sabatina James]

Yes. Yeah. And then, you know, we moved away from this little village.

And then I ended up in Linz, which is.

Close to that. Also close to Salzburg, Austria, is. We were talking about you. You recently went to Salzburg?

[Michael]

I was just recently in Austria.

[Sabatina James]

Yes. I mean, Austria has no equal among the nations. And I had to say that not only because we are Habsburg and Mozart, it's just all those stunningly beautiful.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Sabatina James]

And. But so I came to Linz, and in Linz, everything looked different. It felt like it was home to the entire world because all the immigrants went to the big cities. And that classroom looked very different. No one prayed to the man on the cross there. We had Islamic education in the public school. That is normal in Austria. Every public school has Islamic education. And, I mean, people are not aware of that. But, for example, in Vienna, Muslims have outnumbered Catholics in primary schools.

[Michael]

I had no idea. Because, you know, a little bit of the history is that Islam tries to conquer Europe almost immediately, and it makes it to within 150 miles of Paris in 732, Battle of Poitiers. Then they tried again. Well, they keep trying it, but they tried again, notably in 1571 with the battle of Lepanto. But then the last of these three great battles was the Battle of Vienna. It was the largest cavalry charge in history. Jan Sobieski happily boots the Muslims back again. And then what you're saying is, well, actually, now they've just invited not only Muslim people in, but Islam to be taught in schools.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah. So I don't think Muslims need jihad to conquer the West. They just need the west to keep apologizing for who they are while they push their agenda. We used to actually make fun of that as Muslims.

You know how weak the Christians are. And we had a powerful weapon with the accusation of Islamophobia. I mean, in our classroom, we had Turks and Bosnians and Albanians. And then we had the blonde Michael and Michaela, who used to come in. And every time they came in, we used to say, Immigrants out.

And they were just like little lambs. They wouldn't say anything because they knew that if they say something, we would accuse them of racism.

[Michael]

Right.

[Sabatina James]

And they did not want to be labeled as that. And the only people that stand up to the Muslims are the Russians. The Muslims don't mess with Russians. My bodyguards were usually Russians. Later on, I don't trust anyone else.

[Michael]

Those Russians are made of pretty tough stuff.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah, yeah, I know. I mean, they are. I remember at one lecture, and, you know, unfortunately, my last years.

In Europe were always with police protection at my public events. And I had these two Russian guards standing here, and some Pakistani Christians wanted to come and have my books signed. Have the book signed. Yeah. And then he would just not step forward. I was going, brother, what's going on? He said, he looks so scary.

[Michael]

Those are the bodyguards you want to have?

[Sabatina James]

No, but that was Linz. And the reason why Europe got so hooked on immigration is that there was a labor gap. And.

They invited after the second world war, so that's where they invited the first Muslim migrants from Turkey and other Muslim lands. And they thought, oh, they're going to go away once their work is finished. But life was better in Europe. Right. And so they stayed and they imported the problems of Islam into the West.

[Michael]

And on top of that, you know, after the second world war, obviously a lot of Europeans had been killed. So that's part of the labor gap. And they bring in the Muslims. On top of that, the Europeans stopped having children. So they don't reproduce. The labor problem continues and continues. They have to support an aging population supported by entitlements and welfare. And the Muslims do have a lot of children.

[Sabatina James]

Yes.

[Michael]

And so all of a sudden, you're seeing a major demographic shift.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah, that has been happening. I mean, how many years have I heard, living in Austria and Germany don't have children because of climate change.

[Michael]

Climate change.

[Sabatina James]

Don'T have children. And then all of a sudden, the message changed overnight. Angela Merkel was of the opinion, we need more people because we don't have enough children. And so instead of encouraging their own women to have more children, they just decided to replace the next generation with Muslim migrants.

And this is what has been happening.

[Michael]

No, you will be accused, by the way, of an Islamophobic racist conspiracy theory if you say that populations in the west have been replaced. That is now, if the people who are actually in charge of the political order, the Angela Merkels of the world, if they say we want more migration to fill up our countries, that's not a conspiracy theory. But if someone who opposes it says the exact same thing that is called beyond the pale racist Islamophobic. You're not allowed to say it's.

[Sabatina James]

Well, I mean all these accusations are just used to shut down any conversation about Islam. So Islamophobia is a stupid word. I mean it's so self contradictory. What are phobias? Phobias are irrational fears. But fearing a religion that demands my death penalty is completely rational. You know, I mean, apostasy in Islam is considered such as such a grave sin that Islam demands the death penalty for it. The prophet Muhammad said, whoever changes his religion, kill him. Well, now you can decide about how to kill him. Stone him to death or hang the person. But these are, I mean even the laws in Muslim countries. I have friends in Iran and elsewhere who have parents that were stabbed to death just for converting to Christianity. And this sort of thing happens all the time. We just, as I said, don't hear about it because.

The media covers up all these things like the persecution of Christians in the Muslim world.

[Michael]

A religion that's spread by the sword for 1400 years is not going to change its stripes anytime soon, probably. So you, so you see this happening? You're right, it's very rarely reported on.

[Sabatina James]

Yes.

[Michael]

So you're seeing this, you're in linst, you're now in this Muslim community. You had this reprieve of a Christian school, but now you're back in the Muslim school. Are you still thinking about the man on the cross or no?

[Sabatina James]

Well, I think I got.

What I liked was the taste of freedom. The taste of freedom of seeing girls that were allowed to make their own choices. And I secretly envied them because in my case I was promised to my cousin when I was born.

[Michael]

When you were born, an arranged marriage when you were born to your cousin?

[Sabatina James]

Yeah. My mother said to her sister that when I grow up I will be married to her son. It's her sister.

[Michael]

Forget about arranged marriage for a second. How common is marriage between cousins in Pakistan or the broader Islamic world?

[Sabatina James]

Extremely common in Pakistan. Extremely common. I know so many people, Pakistani girls that had to marry their cousin. Yeah.

[Michael]

Why, why do they do that?

[Sabatina James]

I think it has. It's not that explicitly Islam demands that, but sometimes I think it's to control the women and if they stay within the family it's easier. And in honor based societies like Pakistan is and many of the Muslim countries are, honor is just the most important value. And honor depends solely on how closely women follow Islamic tradition. And it's also very important, I think, in this interview to mention that when we are talking about Islam, we're not talking about Muslims. Muslims are not Islam.

[Michael]

They're people.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah. There are people that practice their religion to varying degrees. So when I talk about Islam, I do not talk about Muslims. I talk about the teachings of Muhammad. And that's, I think, an important distinction.

[Michael]

To make, certainly because a Muslim being a person, could believe anything he pleases.

[Sabatina James]

Yes. And my entire family is Muslim, so. Yeah. And they too, within my family.

Practice the religion to varying degrees. You know, it's. Yeah.

[Michael]

So your. Your promise. Speaking of your family, you're promised your betrothed to your cousin when you're born.

[Sabatina James]

Yes.

[Michael]

When is this supposed to come to fruition?

[Sabatina James]

When my parents started to notice that I was integrating into Western culture. It first started with fights over swim classes because that was something that my parents considered as a very decadent Western thing.

[Michael]

To go swimming.

[Sabatina James]

To go swimming because of the clothing that you should, you know, that you wear. And then theater classes at school, which my parents thought were just for prostitutes. They watched Bollywood movies. But still, you know, so every little freedom that everyone around me had, I had to fight for. And unfortunately.

It was not just arguing. There was always a lot of violence in my family and for just something that people don't understand. But I come from a culture where girls are killed over wearing a lipstick. It's something people can't wrap their head around.

[Michael]

Even hearing you say that, probably people are going to hear girls are punished for wearing lipstick or.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah, I'll give you an example. There was a young woman in Pakistan. Her name was Kandil Balokh. She was an online personality, and.

She dared to take a picture which with a Muslim man and posted it online. And her brother thought that that is very, very dishonorable. And he murdered her.

Then he went to prison.

And.

Was let go by the Pakistani government. Because when an honor killing happens and the family of the victim forgives the perpetrator, then he's out. And in this case, it was the son of the same parent. So he said, we forgive him. So he's out.

These are official laws in the country. People sometimes think, oh, you know, this is just some few radicals that are doing this.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Sabatina James]

No, no.

When you're raped, for example. I've interviewed women who were victims of gang rape in Pakistan, and.

Many don't have the courage to even report the case. They drink poison and kill themselves.

But in this case, this woman was so brave.

She reported the case and first they put them into prison because international media was there when they were gone, let them all out, they're free because she has to bring four male witnesses to prove the rape. And if you can't, you go to prison for adultery.

[Michael]

Because even I, when I've read plenty of these cases and I've thought, oh, you know, it's just some radical or it's some tribal. When you hear about honor killings, you think this is extrajudicial. You're saying, no, this is embedded in.

[Sabatina James]

The law, in the government and sometimes they have things on paper just to look good, so to get funded by Western governments, but it's actually not applied. So Pakistan prides itself, for example, with, you know, we have laws against honor killings. Here it is. But that's how it looks like reality. Like in this case, sometimes governments, sorry, human rights activists will fight for certain people and then, you know, if you're lucky, you can get out of prison or so. But.

For a lot of people, there is no justice and the victims suffer. I mean, I'm right now helping a girl, she's 14 years old and, and she was raped by a Muslim man, one of the neighbors, while she was taking care of her baby sister. He just came in and did that to her.

And what do these people do? They threaten the entire family and say, we are going to wipe you out if you report the case. And often they're scared to even file a report because there have been cases like the case of poor Shazia Bashir. She was a 12 year old girl who worked for a Muslim lawyer and that man raped and tortured her to death. The mom went to report the case at a police station and they said to her, can't be filed against the.

[Michael]

Lawyer because he's a lawyer.

[Sabatina James]

Just. He's a lawyer. Yeah, that's it. I see this every single day in my work. And the victims are getting younger and younger. Recently the victim we took care of was six years old, six years old. She was playing outside and a Muslim from the neighborhood comes, grabs her, takes her to the fields, rapes her so brutally and then leaves her there to die. She's bleeding and screaming in pain. And what happens?

She's discovered and brought to the hospital. He has torn her uterus and that poor child had to be in the hospital for three months just to. But he has ruined her.

She's never going to have a normal life again. And that is what's happening to little girls. Not just in Pakistan. I see it all the time in Afghanistan.

I am a humanitarian so sometimes people send me footage of.

Child brides and I recently saw this one which was so horrifying. There's this little girl, she's tiny and.

She'S with her parents.

And then comes in a stranger who is the age of her grandfather.

And father and mother hand her over to the strangers. A few prayers are said and she is trying to grab her parents, to hold onto them and they walk away. And this poor girl with a teeny tiny suitcase is now walking home with a stranger. And she's resisting, you know, she's just. He holds her hand and she's just resisting because she doesn't want to go, but she's let go. And that little girl is just been sentenced to rape for a lifetime by her own parents. And you know what they say when people like I come and say don't do that, or liberal Muslims come and say don't do that. This is not Islam. They confront you with the Prophet Muhammad. The Prophet Muhammad, his youngest wife was six when he was about 50. And that is the problem, that the role model Muhammad that the Quran explicitly says is the greatest role model for all mankind, that that has not been reformed.

[Michael]

And I suppose in, in that telling, it can't be reformed because in Christianity where the man happens to be God and is a perfect man, then he really is the perfect role model. And you'll never go wrong by emulating Christ. But in the case of Muhammad, who is a false prophet who committed all sorts of sins and foibles, if you say this is the man to emulate, then that's just going to be baked into the entire religion.

[Sabatina James]

False prophet. I feel like we're going to die, Michael.

[Michael]

Yeah, I hope not. Maybe you'll have to up my sleep.

[Sabatina James]

We're gonna be the first martyrs under Mahdani.

[Michael]

Yeah.

I already planned to avoid New York after he got elected. So you've got this horrible problem where, you know, you're just seeing this episode after episode after episode. But then everyone's gonna ask why on earth would a. Would the parents give the little girl over to some old man because of their religiosity or something else because they.

[Sabatina James]

Want to go to paradise. And then you include the economic situation.

In these very, very poor countries. And so it's a combination of a lot of factors. Then you know, if you can marry your girl off to someone who brings you a lot of money.

And you are practicing Sunnah, which is doing as the Prophet Muhammad did. So it's a win, win on both sides.

I have met child brides in one of the first victims I helped, I have.

An organization, a foundation that helps these sorts of girls. And she was a child when she was married off in Afghanistan. And.

They always say the same stories. I mean, in her case, her parents were shot by the Taliban and then she was married off to her nephew.

Yes. And he had.

I think it was her arm or something that was broken. But she was in pain when I met her. And she had converted to Christianity and Germany wanted to send her back. That's the thing. You know, the Salafists, Hamas supporters, and all the other Islamists, they're allowed to stay.

[Michael]

Right.

[Sabatina James]

And the girls that integrate, that take off their head scarves and even convert to Christianity, they go. They have to go back.

Anyways, I fought for her and she was allowed to stay with her two little children that she had from that marriage. But when you listen to these girls and their stories, how many of the girls don't survive because they're so little? And I have heard of cases where the little girl actually became pregnant and then struggled for days to deliver a child and then died herself. Because they are not. The little bodies are not built for it.

[Michael]

Of course. Of course.

[Sabatina James]

And. And so this is what is happening. And I'm astonished about the human rights movement in the west that always says that we. They care so much about these Muslim women. No, they don't. They don't talk about this.

No. They're protecting an ideology. And even people that are trying to point out that this is happening in the Muslim world are considered racist bigots, Islamophobic monsters. Like my friend who is a journalist from Pakistan. She's an atheist. She was persecuted there. She came to Germany and she said, it is astonishing how the liberal left abandons.

All the human rights activists that come from these Muslim countries and point this out because they won't take it.

[Michael]

It's unbelievable. They've categorized Islam as a religion of peace. Yes. And as the religion of peace, which, having read. You've read the Quran much more deeply than I have. That was not the impression I got when I read the Quran that it was, in fact, the reason I read the Quran was because all the liberals in the west kept saying it was a religion. I was 14. I said, that doesn't sound right. And I read it. And I said, yeah, it doesn't seem quite right.

[Sabatina James]

Yes.

[Michael]

So then you're betrothed to your cousin. You're. Now you're taken in by the west and by freedom, and you want to do these radical, crazy things like Go swimming or maybe something. And your parents don't like this very much. So then what happens?

[Sabatina James]

Well, they discovered that.

I was holding hands with a boy at school. That was the only.

Friendship I had with this young boy who was an exchange student from North Carolina. He was an Albanian Muslim who introduced me to Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre.

And it's funny, I don't know what.

[Michael]

To make of this, man.

[Sabatina James]

It's how I learned English with Snoop Dogg. Yeah.

[Michael]

There are so few izzles in your addiction.

[Sabatina James]

No, no, that's my first impression of the US was they're all black.

[Sponsor Voice]

They.

[Michael]

Smoke pot all the time, every day. Wow. That's an Albanian Muslim from North Carolina. North Carolina introducing you to Snoop Doggy Dog.

[Sabatina James]

Yes. And his. Yeah, and he had a friend from the Bronx who was there. Emmanuel. Maybe he watches this interview, he's gonna know. Hey, it's her.

[Michael]

Hello, Emmanuel. Hi.

[Sabatina James]

And yeah, when they discovered that I was beaten so badly by my mother.

[Michael]

By your mother?

[Sabatina James]

Yes.

[Michael]

Not by your father. You would think the father would be the disciplinarian, your mother.

[Sabatina James]

It's mostly, unfortunately, the women, because women lose face if.

Their children do not grow up to live Islam according to tradition. And there's an entire society, parallel society within the Western communities that is watching the girls. That's what people don't realize. So there's a lot of pressure. And so I was just not allowed to belong to the world that I was growing up in. That was the problem.

And they considered the west as just very decadent. And I used to hear this from Muslims in my community. Look at the Christians, their brothels are full, their churches are empty, and when their parents are old, they dump them in old age homes. I mean, they're not wrong.

[Michael]

I hate to say the Muslims have a point. They do have a point.

[Sabatina James]

Yes. And they were just also afraid that I will become like that. And so what happened then was they said, we have a vacation planned in Pakistan. And I was scared of this. And when my mother beat me so brutally, I went into a shelter because the beatings happened so often that my teachers who noticed that said, this is not normal, you need to go to a shelter. And the social workers already knew me. And so I ended up there. And I told them, I'm very scared to go back to Pakistan for vacation because my aunt had called and said that she was ready to have me as her daughter in law. And I was 16 and I was just a teenager at school and now was supposed to be a wife. I wasn't Ready for that. But my parents, I mean, they're not, they're not the Taliban. My father is this extremely handsome, charming man. You know, they couldn't believe that they would do this to me, of course.

[Michael]

And I think a lot of people watching probably think, yeah, especially when you see what's happened to New York and London and Dearborn, Michigan and all the rest, you think, well, look, obviously there's some kind of crazy guys living in caves with big beards and Casio watches, and those are the ones you have to really watch out for. But you know, all the rest, it's probably just like some slightly different form of Christianity or something.

[Sabatina James]

No, no, we're not, we're not. We weren't that. My brothers are highly educated, like highly educated.

And my mom doesn't even wear a headscarf. But still, these were the things that were going on in my family. And we went back. They sent me back because I was a minor and my parents promised that they will not force me to marry my cousin. And so we went back to Pakistan.

And when we arrived there, my passport was taken. I was literally locked in that little house of my cousin. And I was.

Invited into a room where all my family members were sitting. And they said that they were not ready. My aunt said she was not ready to have me as her daughter in law.

And I refused. And I was the first girl in the history of my family to refuse a marriage.

And which was a great shame for my father. And I love my father. I still love my father. And I did not want to shame him, but I just could not live with a man that I did not love. I wanted to make my own choices.

My mother beat me. And this time there was.

No one to call. No police and no social services. You know, when I'm talking about beating, it's not just I give you a slap. That's normal in my culture.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

My mom used to grab my hair and drag me through the apartment. And often when I went to school, I would lock myself in the toilet because I was so afraid of her. And this is how my school day started. Often. And.

In that case, I was now there. My family decided to leave me behind and they went back to Austria. I had no idea what was going to happen to me. No passport, no phone, nothing. And.

Then.

They decided decisions were made for me. I was not allowed to make decisions. And.

They said they're going to go and visit a few schools with me. And the schools they visited weren't just normal schools where other children went. They Were madrasas. Madrasa is a religious seminary, basically, or as some people call it, jihad factories, because these are the very places where the Taliban and other radical Muslim groups recruit the next generation of jihadis.

The men come and learn and memorize the Quran to fight for Allah, and the women are there for submission, to learn submission.

And.

There are over 30,000 of these madrasas just in Pakistan alone.

And what do you learn there? You learn nothing else but the Quran and the hadith and how to enforce them with violence.

When I arrived there, I noticed that there were no chairs, no beds, no desks, except a piece of carved wood on which the Quran was laid. And for almost 12 hours a day, we were just indoctrinated with the Quran, reciting the Quran and praying the namaz.

And when there were girls that disobeyed, they put them in the courtyard, and they would punish them so badly that they would scream. And we were forced to hear and watch it.

And what did they achieve was that if you treat one like this, none of the others are going to come and resist.

It was a time of hell. I mean, I've described this hell in my book.

And the only way for me to get out of that was.

To marry the cousin.

And I thought, I will marry him, then I will go back to Austria, and then I will divorce him.

[Michael]

Right, right.

[Sabatina James]

And that's exactly what happened. He came.

Or almost what happened, because it was actually then an engagement. My father came.

And he couldn't afford to bring the entire family back and said that, we will do the marriage later. We'll do the engagement. And.

So that's what happened. I came back to Austria after the engagement with the cousin and started my school.

And that's where everything then changed when I met Joseph, the evangelical Christian.

[Michael]

This is not the Albanian Muslim from North Carolina. This is a different.

[Sabatina James]

No, no, The Albanian Muslim. I mean, he was.

That was just. Our relationship was listening to Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre and holding hands.

That's what we did post Muslims. Right. So. But, you know, here and then I met Joseph.

And he was like no other Christian I'd met before because he actually brought his Bible to school.

[Michael]

So.

[Sabatina James]

And I just said to him, what happened to you? And he said, I've gotten to know Jesus. And I just thought, this guy used to stand in the smoker's corner with the guy who had dreadlocks. Maybe he's on drugs. I don't know, you know, but he was very much on fire for Jesus, and he was trying to bring me the good News. And I was just thinking, no, no, this is bad news. It's gonna get me killed.

[Michael]

It's definitely gonna be bad news in my family, that's for sure.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah.

But once I told him about my problems with my family.

And he said, you must pray. And I said, five times a day I pray.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

And he said, maybe you're praying to the wrong God, because obviously he's not hearing you. I love the evangelicals. They do that sort of thing, you.

[Michael]

Know, they're very blunt.

[Sabatina James]

We don't do that. No, we just, you know, it's for us.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

If you have a bunch of kids, you get them to the Latin mass. Yes. That's the extent that we do.

[Michael]

The Catholics, we're like a little more subtle sometimes. But the evangelicals, they're so forthright. They just drop it all. As much as can be.

[Sabatina James]

Drop the bomb.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Sabatina James]

Yes, they are. And I just thought when he said that, that's section 295A in the Pakistani penal code. You would go to prison in my country for saying that.

You know, that's actually true. You have a blasphemy law that actually puts people into prison if they criticize Islam. And that's what they want to enforce in the West. That's why they're always whining about Islamophobia, because they're not used to criticism. Anyways, in my case, he then.

Gave me a Bible.

It was a gift. Close to Christmas and Old Testament, New Testament and a map of Israel. Like, seriously, I'm a Muslim.

[Sponsor Voice]

You don't like the Jews?

[Michael]

At least that page you have to take out if you're bringing it home.

[Sabatina James]

Anyways, he did that. And then.

I was sitting.

On my bed. My parents were now forcing me to sign the marriage certificate so that I'm officially married and my cousin could come to Austria. And so there were battles about this. And I was praying to Allah to help me and nothing happened. And that one night I took the Bible home. And it was an incalculable risk for me to take it home. But I'm a risk taker for the truth, so I did. And.

That night I said, who are you? Buddha? Allah, Krishna, Jesus?

And so my gaze fell on the Bible that Joseph gave me. And I had no idea where to start, because most Muslims don't. We have weird ideas about Christianity. I have a friend, she is. Her mom is an Indian Muslim. And she was saying, you know, the Christians.

They had the Old Testament. It was too difficult. So they found a new one so that their women can wear bikini and not be guilty about it. It's funny, but that sort of talk is very common at Muslim dinner tables.

[Michael]

Wow. Well, it's amazing, though, because the New Testament was written in the first century AD and when was the bikini invented? 1945 or something like that.

[Sabatina James]

I don't know.

[Michael]

Okay. There was a gap in there.

[Sabatina James]

I know, but.

[Michael]

Took a while.

[Sabatina James]

This is the sort of thing. So I was, you know, holding this book in my hand. God, who are you? And I just randomly opened the Bible and the first sentence I read was, whoever searches me with a pure heart will find me. Whoa.

There was an answer.

[Michael]

That happens, people. It happens.

[Sabatina James]

Yes.

[Michael]

I don't mean to make it sound like a magic trick or something, because it's not. But that happens. People just open the Bible or they look over and it just happens to be on a page with exactly the same. Exactly what you need to see.

[Sabatina James]

And then I started to do. But Joseph told me, read the New Testament. So I started to read. And I did what a lot of Muslims do. I started to compare Muhammad and Jesus. And I was especially struck by the story of Mary Magdalene because.

When the mob was eager to execute her, I just saw myself in her with my entire family pressuring me. And I saw the women of my country in Mary Magdalene.

[Michael]

And I have to interrupt you. This is one of.

This is just kind of what we were talking about. I woke up today, I looked at my calendar, and someone had added a meeting with a news organization because they wanted me to talk about Mary Magdalene. And I haven't thought about Mary Magdalene in I can't tell you how long. And I actually wrote to my publicist. I said, do I need to know more? I'm not an expert on Mary Magdalene. She said, no, I just want to do the meeting. I have this whole meeting about this whole project about Mary Magdalene. I have no idea where this came from. This just appeared on my calendar. I didn't think about it afterward. And then you say that.

That'S what happens, though. That kind of thing happens.

[Sabatina James]

I think Mary Magdalene maybe sent me. Speak to him, please.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah. Maybe, maybe.

[Sabatina James]

No. I started to make mental comparisons between Muhammad and Jesus.

An adulterous woman is brought to Muhammad, stoning for the woman. The same is brought to Jesus. Mercy. Muhammad said, kill the infidels wherever you find them.

And Jesus says, love your enemies. Pray for those who persecute you.

Muhammad said, I have been commanded to fight against all people until they testify that Muhammad is the messenger. And Jesus says, blessed are the peacemakers.

Muhammad participated in over 27 battles personally as a warlord. And.

Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world. I mean, I could.

You know, continue with this list because there is so much to say. And actually, if people are asking, where is this actually written? I've pointed that all out. The only sources I'm using in these, this interview are the sources that are recognized as valid in classical Islamic theology. So.

I was most fascinated by Jesus, and I wanted to know more about him. And there was this movie that was aired at Easter about Jesus. And when the crucifixion came, my parents turned it off. I wanted to see why someone would sacrifice his life for his broken creatures. Because Allah is not interested in the brokenness of his creatures. You cannot have a relationship with him. You follow his rules. So I wanted to know about him. And so I ventured out to the city and to buy a copy. And everywhere I went, I was just met with snorts and chuckles. I think they were just like, who is this brown woman with an Austrian accent watching a Jesus movie? What is this?

[Michael]

Almost as crazy as an Albanian. Bosnian from North Carolina. Yes.

[Sabatina James]

So I was going everywhere and I wasn't succeeding. And then I remembered something Joseph used to say, Jesus loves lives and he loves you. And I said, hey, Jesus, if you're alive, please help me find this movie. And when my last attempt was unsuccessful, I just gave up. Sat into the tram and I just thought, even Jesus can't help me. And all of a sudden I hear this voice.

You're very pretty. Aren't you a singer? And it was the man sitting across of me. And I just went, nah, I don't need that now.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, I've heard this line before. Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

And he said.

I don't know, Fraulein, which is a lady fraulein, but I just have this feeling that I must give you something. And I said sarcastically, well.

It'S Christmas time. Give me a gift.

He just handed me this leaflet and then went off the tram. And I look at it and it says, call this hotline and receive one Jesus movie for free.

And I just went, this is very interesting. I felt I was.

Followed in my thoughts by someone, something that I wasn't used to. And while I was excited to have these little experiences.

My head was speaking to me with reason. Your parents are not even happy that you don't want to marry your cousin. What are they going to say if you say, I actually want to exchange Jesus at Muhammad for Jesus, right?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

So when I.

Was going home, I just thought.

I Will just practice the faith secretly because I couldn't give up my family. That was the most important thing to me. And.

That night, of course, I stumbled upon the verses where Christ says, whoever loves father and mother more than me is not worthy of me. So Jesus was a God of challenge, either all or nothing. And it is for a lot of Muslims, you know, it's not just a change of religion. You absolutely lose everything. You lose your family, you lose your friends, your community and your identity. It's like suicide, basically. And so Jesus was asking me.

To die so that I can become like him. And that's the only thing that drove me to accept him, because I wanted to be like him.

And there is so much to say, but I'm going to make it short.

I always had this inner voice within me. Strangely, even though Joseph was a Catholic evangelical to go to the Catholic Church.

The man on the cross was there.

And I always followed him. So I went to this big cathedral in Lintz and saw this holy water. And I said, oh, some sort of ritual. So I was just making this weird sign.

Something make these weird sounds. And this young man, can I help you? And I said, yeah, I have a meeting with the Pope today.

He just looked at me going, the Pope's not here. But he brought me to the priest. And I tell the Catholic priest about my newfound love in Jesus Christ and the things that I was experiencing.

And he said to me.

It could be that Muhammad was a prophet too. We don't know.

[Michael]

The priest said, this. This is in Austria.

[Sabatina James]

This is the time where St. John Paul had kissed the Quran and people wanted to follow.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

So all religions were away to God. And I experienced that firsthand. So he let me go. He didn't tell me that I needed catechism. He didn't say, oh, you should come, and if there's any problem, come to my church and I'll give you a room if you have to flee. Nothing like that. He sent me home. And then I saw a nun. She had, you know, she was properly suited and booted. She was on her bike. And I made her stop. Stop.

I was on fire for Jesus. I needed someone to speak with me. So she stopped. And. Very sweet. You know, Catholic sisters are always so extremely sweet. And she said, yeah. I said, I believe in the same as you. And she didn't know what to do. And then she said, I was a Muslim. I wanted her to be happy.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

And.

She said, all religions are a way to God.

[Michael]

Oh, my goodness.

[Sabatina James]

We must just believe deeply in what we believe. And I just thought, if I believe deeply as a Muslim, that killing an infidel is going to get me to heaven.

Is that a way to God?

[Michael]

How is that the way to God? You know, this is as you describe. I'm not even terrible. I'm shocked. But I'm not surprised by these experiences, especially in Austria and Germany. But truly, this is one of the great arguments Hilaire Belloc made the point, the proof that the Catholic Church is divinely instituted is that if it weren't bad clergy would have destroyed it 2,000 years ago. Unbelievable.

[Sabatina James]

I love Hillary Belloc. They have thrown him out somehow. But, you know, I just. I loved Hillary Belloc. Yeah. Anyways, but so I ended up back in the Evangelical church, even though I always had this inner longing to go to the Catholic Church, but no one wanted me there. So the evangelicals took great care of me. I mean, they just, they even study Islam just for Muslim converts just to go through what, what is, what are the challenges they have? So they are most eager to accept converts. But to make a long story short.

[Michael]

Don'T make it too short.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah. There's so much to say. I've written three books.

Two bestsellers, by the way.

About Sharia.

[Michael]

I'm not surprised.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

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[Michael]

What is all of this for?

[Sponsor Voice 2]

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[Michael]

Midst of it all.

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[Sabatina James]

When.

My mom pressured me to sign the marriage certificate again.

I had accepted Jesus in my heart.

And she.

Asked me to sign it. I said no because I knew the breakup was coming.

I said, God does not want that. She was completely perplexed. What God? You know? So she took my clothing.

Packed it in a bag, threw it out.

And spat on me and said, if I would have known that you would become like this.

I would have killed you when you were an infant.

And so I was.

Standing in front of the.

Sorry. I was.

Standing. I didn't even have the strength to call the elevator because I was just shaking. I was so weak and I didn't know where to go. And I was just on the street. And I ended up in the homeless shelter for young adults.

And.

I was probably the first Austrian to be homeless for Jesus.

[Michael]

At least a few centuries. Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

I want to imitate Christ in all the different forms in his passion. So that was one. Yeah, of course. And so I ended up in this homeless shelter.

And I've actually recently written to that shelter. I love those people that helped me there. And.

They.

Then recognized, because they knew me from before.

That it was all a lie and deception what they had.

Received from my parents before. The thing is, you know, Michael, this is very normal. It's going to sound very horrible and not all Muslims do that, but it was very, very normal for us Muslims to lie to non believers because it wasn't considered a sin. And I would have friends that invite the Christians over who were best friends with them. And the Christians would go home singing, oh, that was so nice. And the hospitality of Muslims. And then what did we do? We separated their dishes, prayed the Muslim prayer over it because they are impure.

And the Quran itself in Surah 5 says that a Muslim and a Christian cannot be friends. So if you have friendships, they have to be shallow. Friendships, never loyalty, especially in hard times, then Islam's honor is at stake. I mean, that was normal. That's what we believed. Everyone believed that.

And.

I think my parents saw in those social workers just a bunch of pig eating infidels. That's how I perceived it. And you can lie to infidels and that's what they did. And when.

I told them the whole story and that I had converted to Christianity and.

They helped me to find an apartment.

And the apartment happened to be right in front of a police station because God knew what was coming.

Providence. Because when my parents found out.

They called me home. And.

There in that living room of my parents.

My mother and my father, and a Muslim scholarly person was there.

And my cousin from Pakistan, they had invited him to come over. And you know how they did that? They adopted him as their son to.

[Michael]

Get around the immigration visa.

[Sabatina James]

So he was adopted.

And by a liberal lawyer who fights for the rights of refugees. He helped them to get him into the country.

So he was there. And the Muslim scholar.

He folded his hands, said, you know what happens in Islam when you leave the religion? And I knew what happens, it's the death penalty. But I was just thinking, I'm living in Linz, how are they going to do that in Linz?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

And he just said to me, you know, normally you get three days. That's Sharia law, you get three days to recant. Yeah, yeah. So you can. And it's not just persuading the, the convert into accepting Islam again. No, it's torturing the convert so that he can become Muslim again. And if they don't, then you kill them. And that's not just a radical interpretation, that's as I said, teaching of the Prophet Muhammad. And.

In my case he said, we give you two weeks.

To come back.

And otherwise please don't let us do what we have to do, otherwise.

And I was just frozen because my family had just sentenced me to death in Lints.

And so what I did was.

I called a friend who.

Was a non practicing Tunisian man. So they just did this to me and he said, you need to go to the police. But before I did that, I called Joseph. But Joseph, when I told him about the threats, his family was scared. He didn't come.

Because I'm going to come and help. And then all of a sudden he wasn't there, too scared. So I ended up at the police station, told them the entire story. The policeman first said, why don't you convert back to Islam?

I mean, what does it matter what religion you have, right?

[Michael]

It's all fake anyway.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah, why don't you convert back to Islam? Then I told him everything that has happened and then he went from One extreme to the others. Other extreme, which was he needs to arrest my father because of all the violations.

But I didn't want him to arrest me. I started to cry. Then they called the psychologist because they were scared that I may be suicidal. That's the condition that I was in.

[Michael]

Yeah, of course.

[Sabatina James]

And.

The psychologist evaluated me and said she's psychologically completely fine. But what they couldn't understand was.

That it wasn't just either being afraid of my parents or loving my parents. It was both.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

And I didn't want to harm my parents. I just wanted them to not to murder me.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah. And so one day I receive police starts investigating. Then I receive a letter. It's about your husband. And I just went, wait, I haven't married.

And turns out my father signed the marriage certificate himself.

And.

All of a sudden I was married.

But according to the world that he comes from, he wasn't doing anything wrong because in many cases, the bride doesn't even have to be present. It's just the men in the family who can sign for her. And then she's married.

That's what he did in Austria.

And you, by the way, I know of girls who've had that happen to them in Brooklyn and other places in the US this is not just a European thing. Okay. This is happening here. I have met victims in the US who are going through similar things. And.

Anyways, I went against that. And then my cousin called me and said, you're not going to experience this day anymore. And he hung up. And I knew he was coming for me. That day I left Linz, I came to Vienna.

And in Vienna.

Whenever I started.

New jobs, I was scared that my family would find me and then terrorize me because that what had happened before. Whenever I started to work somewhere, my parents would come there, create a scene, and then I was let go.

[Michael]

Right.

[Sabatina James]

And so I wasn't sure what to do. And I had a friend who was a model.

He said, oh, I know this photographer. And that photographer, I'm sure he's gonna do some amazing pictures and you can earn some money. And so I did. And then just, nah, I don't want to be seen like this by my father. And you know, it's gonna degrade his honor. So I did a few shots that I should have never done.

But.

During that time, I met.

A.

Priest that came to a press conference because I decided to write down my story.

By the persuasion of a policeman, former policeman. So you should write this down. Because he first didn't believe me. When I told him the story, and then all of a sudden, he called me. He said, no, I have all the statements. This is not right.

[Michael]

It checks out. It checks out.

[Sabatina James]

So he said. And he had a publishing agency. It's a crazy story that he himself has. He's a policeman that turned a millionaire. And then whatever he did. And then.

[Michael]

Even if your story is hard to believe, yeah, that's true. Policeman becoming a millionaire publishing mogul. But these things happen. These things.

[Sabatina James]

He exists, though.

And so the story came out, and at one of my.

Press conference, there was a priest. I love him. Rudy.

Rudy was amazing. And he was a Catholic priest. And he just sat there and looked at me. He said, you know, when you were speaking about Christ to the press, it felt like you were describing the sun to a bunch of blind men.

And.

I was so grateful that finally there's a Catholic. And he said, I want to be Catholic.

[Michael]

I want to be Catholic. But the priests and nuns I meet in Central Europe, they don't seem to want to do anything.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah. So he baptized me, but he never told me that I need to be confirmed. And.

That'S something that happens that sometimes when people see the story that you risked your life for Jesus Christ and now you don't need catechism. But the problem is that the catechism is not supernaturally infused in you. You still need that.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Sabatina James]

So I was just begging these people, please teach me more.

Please. And he just said, no, you don't.

[Michael]

No, it's a religion. You actually have to learn things.

[Sabatina James]

Actually, you know, problem was that my parents sued me for defamation, and then I had to prove the entire story before court.

Then the court and my witnesses were all scared, of course, even the social workers would not testify because they were scared that my parents would come and create a scene. So they left everything written to the judge, which was most helpful.

[Michael]

At least they did that.

[Sabatina James]

Yes. No, no. I mean, my social workers, God bless them, they were amazing. And.

They.

The court ruled in my favor, but it went on for years, and my parents used to find me wherever I moved to. So I then became ambassador for a women's rights organization in Germany. My book was then published in Germany, and it was quite successful. So I came there.

And there was this friend of mine. He said, you know, here is a young woman. She's in desperate need of help, and you're a public person. Maybe you can help her. And that was the child bride that I was speaking about from Afghanistan.

And I fought for her case.

And she was allowed to stay in Germany. And it encouraged me so much. And.

I established my foundation in Hamburg in 2006. So Sabatino friends of the Passion.

Was established there. And.

We have helped thousands of victims of.

Not just.

Forced marriages, but especially people who are suffering persecution for believing in Jesus Christ. That is our main duty as a foundation, to help those people. And this is.

Also what I spoke about publicly. And once I was.

Invited by a Catholic priest. You know, I was.

Baptized, but went back to the Catholic Evangelicals because they were the only ones taking care of.

[Michael]

Me, who would teach you things and bring you in.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah, yeah. So during that time, the pastor used to speak. Oh, you know.

We are like the early church.

But I always felt that there was something missing.

And I think what it was. And I had visited mega churches in the us I went to Hillsong and I went to Aero. And they're lovely. I mean, amazing people.

[Michael]

The people are great.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah, the people are great. But there was something lacking.

And I think it was.

The cross.

The cross that had followed me from the very beginning. I stepped into Austria.

And the cross was there at the Evangelicals, but Jesus wasn't suffering on it. And I asked the pastor one day, I said, where is he?

He said, well, he's not there. He is risen. And I said to him, but he was just crucified in Syria, so he's still there.

And he didn't know what I meant.

ISIS had just crucified people for not fasting during Ramadan. That's what I meant. And I was interviewing Christians who had fret, fled the Islamic state. It was 2014.

And one of the young men that I helped had testified to the murder of Coptic Christians.

And that's what I was speaking about when I said, christ is still there. And.

God knew that the German church is a wilderness for Muslim converts. And whoever seeks him with a pure heart finds him. And he started to send me the saints. And the first one to reach me from across the centuries was St. Augustine.

St. Augustine. A journalist from the Spiegel magazine had come to interview me and did a big portrait about me. And I thought, he's going to be super nice. But he came out with this article, God's Supermodel.

[Michael]

God's supermodel. Flattering, I guess.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah. The thing is, no one takes you seriously if you do that, but it's okay. So he did that. But he was a great devotee to St. Augustine. Even at Spiegel, you have these people.

[Michael]

Right? That's shocking to hear. Absolutely shocking.

[Sabatina James]

He's not there Anymore. But probably the most leftist magazine in Germany.

But good for them, they did it. And I must say the German media has treated me very well to, you know, can't complain about that. So.

He quoted him, and I was fascinated by it. And I started to read St. Augustine, and he was constantly talking about the Catholic Church. And I just went, wait a minute, I need to find out. When did this begin? And I went to the.

Library of the Church Fathers, and there I discovered the man of my life, Ignatius of Antioch.

[Michael]

He's a good one. He is a good one.

[Sabatina James]

My goodness, when he says these words, I am in love with suffering. And I was like, this guy has the same God.

And he spoke about the Catholic Church in the first century. And I started to go to the Catholic Mass. I didn't know what to do. But I remember someone saying, well, you have to go to confession. So I went into the box, said, hello, don't know what to do.

It was the most interesting experience for that priest.

And then I went to Mass.

And there is something.

That I experienced at that Mass.

That was beyond any explanation in words.

And I believe that all those sorts of experiences should remain between God and the soul.

[Michael]

And often for those experiences, even if you try to put it into words, it kind of fails. They tend to have an irritable quality to them.

[Sabatina James]

I know my spiritual director actually.

Wanted me to write this down. And I started and I wrote it down. He's like, no, just throw it out.

And. And then, you know, I'm a devotee to St. John of the Cross, and St. John of the Cross says it very clearly that it's not even necessary to explain it, because the spiritual effect that God wants to create is created without you.

Having the explanation or, you know, knowing how to describe. So since then.

I am Catholic, and during that time, I was invited. See, this is how Providence works by a priest. He has this teeny, tiny little parish of the traditional Latin Mass order. He invited me to come and speak about persecuted Christians. And he was shocked that I came. He said, you know, I have a really small church, and you're very famous in Germany, so why did you come? And I. Yeah, well, not to speak, but to seek.

And he introduced me to the bishop, and I was then confirmed finally 10 years after being baptized into the Catholic Church.

And.

Yeah.

During that time, 2015 and 14 and 15, that was the time of the huge wave of immigration into Germany, Right.

And people like me were not safe anymore because.

Millions and millions of new Muslim immigrants came at one of my lectures Bearded Salafists showed up. And when they became aggressive, security literally rushed me out of the lecture. And the next day had to be canceled because the organizers no longer felt safe. I felt I saw Muslim men following me to church.

Watching me at the train stations. And I was taken into police protection, had been for a while, because my parents had again discovered where I lived in Germany.

And.

So I was under police protection for many, many years. And I was a nightmare case for my police protection officer. Greetings to him.

Because.

I had this great desire to help the persecuted Christians. But I had left Pakistan as a Muslim. I wanted to hear the sorrows of that community. And the only way you can do that.

Is by being with them, listening to them. And how do I do that? I would have to go back to Pakistan.

And what would happen to me in Pakistan if anyone finds me?

I would be either imprisoned under section 295 for blasphemy or the mob would kill me.

But I knew it was the will of God because it was my duty to help the persecuted. This is how I discovered the will of God. What is my duty?

But I was scared. And so when I read the story of Joshua in the Bible, who was scared of the giants, even though he had an order to go.

Like, who is my giant? The jihadis? Yeah, am I going to go?

I thought, if it's the will of God for whom I have given up the most precious thing in my life, which was my family.

Then I will go. And so I actually went to Pakistan.

[Michael]

Not the loveliest vacation, I imagine. That's astounding, really. You know, you can make a sort of joke as nice, but that is. It's crazy.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah. I went not just to Pakistan. I went to the most dangerous area within Pakistan.

And my driver was someone from Peshawar. I was there with a human rights organization, and with. They were Pakistanis themselves. And one of them was a convert from Islam who had spent years in prison himself and is sort of an evangelical pastor.

And probably the most courageous man I've met. And.

He had organized this driver. And I just said, how can you have a Muslim from Peshawar driving us throughout this whole journey? I mean, that's the stronghold of the Taliban in Pakistan. How do you know he's not one of them? And he said, well, you know, where we are going, you need someone like that to even get through. And I just said, where are you taking me? Well, where the victims are.

And then when we arrived there, I always had armed men with me. And when we arrived there, even at those so called hotels. You would have these men with Kalashnikovs and turbans standing there. It was terrifying. And there was an area where the victims would all meet to speak with me. And then the bodyguard came and said, they have killed one of the victims. And I don't know the whole story of her. I just know I was terrified. Of course, I said, I'm not going. I want to go back to Germany.

[Michael]

Austria. Germany, yeah.

[Sabatina James]

And then he said to me.

Think of Queen Esther. God called her to save her people.

And she was scared and what did she do?

And I said, well.

She went because of Mordechai who encouraged her. And he said, I'm your Mordecai and I want to encourage you to go. He's like, thank you.

[Michael]

Thanks, Morty. I'll be there.

[Sabatina James]

So I read the story of Queen Esther who said, if I die, I die, but I will fulfill the will of God, basically. And so I did. And to this day, I'm so glad that I did.

Because out of that trip, something amazing has been established. We have Operation Moses, which is the freeing of slaves. Pakistan still has slavery and many of the slaves are Christians. So we basically free slaves and we help victims that are accused of blasphemy laws. We help bringing back Christian girls that have been abducted and forcefully converted to Islam. Pakistan, every year there are about thousand Christian and Hindu girls that are abducted and forcefully converted to Islam. And this is what we do. But in my case, I mean, the journey wasn't over because on that trip we were followed by an Islamist organization. And at one time a dead body was thrown on my car to make a stop.

And I just thought, this is the end.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sabatina James]

And this is actually how I start my book.

And it was a long night and I described all the details in my book.

And I wanted to visit people in prison as well. But then after this.

The people that had organized the trip, they said, the person that needs the most help right now is you. You must leave the country.

[Michael]

When they start throwing dead bodies on your car, that is a strong sign that time's up.

[Sabatina James]

Yes. And I miraculously survived. And my police officer, you know, whenever I even started to say God, I know, I know, I know you're God. He thought it was horribly imprudent for me to go there.

[Michael]

Imprudent? That's a very diplomatic way to put it, I think.

[Sabatina James]

I think.

The most prudent thing is the will of God.

And if that will leads you to risk your life, then it's still the most prudent. Thing to do, and it's why I did it. And we have saved countless lives since then, and we still do. So we don't advertise our work. So, by the way, if you don't find, like, where is that? Like, we don't.

[Michael]

You have to be a little undercover, I imagine, in that line of work.

[Sabatina James]

Yes.

[Michael]

It's a very important point that you made, that doing the will of God is always the prudent thing. People are going to think that's really weird, but I think a lot of people have this experience sometimes. I certainly have it myself, where you're praying and you pray that something that you want will happen, but you think, well, you know, if it's your will, guy, or I really hope such and such doesn't happen, please don't let this happen. Please don't allow the consequence of this action to come, whatever it is you think. I really feel like God might be calling me to do one thing, but I really don't want to do it. But then really, one must conclude, even just as a matter of reason, whatever God wants is best. He knows better than you do, and he wills better than you do, and he loves better than you do.

So long as we're talking about the real God, who is the divine logos of the universe, the love that moves the sun and the other stars, go with him. That's actually the practical, prudent thing to do. Because he's right.

[Sabatina James]

Yes, yes.

But, you know, it's not just that. The danger was now in Pakistan. We had invited and imported the danger of radical Islam into the west through all that immigration.

And didn't just have all these bearded Salafists show up at my lecture.

Now I had literally, when I went to church and I had a public event, there were armed guards standing in front of the church while I was at mass because I had to have them there. They were following me. And.

So I took the whole thing online, you know, because the public appearances became very dangerous. I took the whole thing online. And.

During that time, we received so much attention from the radical Muslim scene because I exposed the Quran, I'm a madrasa child. They can speak about all this nonsense to Christians who have absolutely no clue. You know, they can tell them anything. They have never read their own scriptures and, you know, why should they know anything about Islam?

[Michael]

Right.

[Sabatina James]

So the problem was then they started to send us death threats. And the last one that we received in Arabic was, watch your head, have your house guarded. And watch your head and have your house guarded by police.

And this is when the authorities started to investigate because they were saying that they are going to put the pictures of the channel on all European jihadi sites. And what is the picture of the channel? That's me and another.

Ex Muslim and some people from the Middle East. We did that. They're the. You know, they know what it looks like when Sharia takes place. Right. And so with them.

I had this channel, but even that was not safe anymore. And so I fled Germany and I came.

To the land of liberty, America.

And I was always told, hey, you may have had this desert in Germany with the church.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

But the American church is doing amazing. The churches are full. It's great. And after having lived here for a while, I must say that's either great news or pretty disturbing because I.

Think that.

Faith in America.

Is.

Not much better than in Europe in a different way. I find it very, very focused on the self.

It is not the faith of the man on the cross. It's not the faith of Ignatius of Antioch. It is, if I had to describe it. Sometimes people ask me, what is the difference between the persecuted church and the church in the West?

And I think the difference is that the persecuted.

Live for Jesus.

And the church in the west lives for themselves with Jesus.

[Michael]

So.

[Sabatina James]

And I just. And you see it really, it's almost like a spiritual schism. And you hear it in the way people speak. I heard this testimony of a young man who distributed Bibles and they took off his arm.

And my colleague asks him, what are you going to do now? And his answer was, I still have the other arm.

And then, you know, I. My Catholics, they've just gone to retreat, heard their pastor preach for a full weekend and they come back and have their testimony.

Yeah. Sermon was good, breakfast was good. Furniture was a bit outdated.

[Michael]

Yeah. It's a nice weekend.

[Sabatina James]

This is so therapeutic. And I try to win the people for the persecuted church because literally, people in Pakistan think that the Christians are praying for them.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

And I'm trying to win people to pray for these people.

But what do the persecuted see when they look over to the West? They see the conservatives obsessed with the Jews. They see the trad Catholics obsessed with the devil. And we've got the better mess, you know.

I mean, we do, but.

[Michael]

We do, but that's beside the point. That's beside the point.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah. And then you've got the liberals who don't think that rights for Christians matter in the first place. So we are really stuck.

[Michael]

It's an amazing. And the word you just used Therapeutic. That's what we call it. We call religion in the west is moralistic, therapeutic deism.

[Sabatina James]

Yes, that's basically what it is. It's therapy. And we have lost the art of sacrifice.

[Michael]

And is it a line that. I think it was an invective from Catholics against Protestants, but it applies, I think, broadly to faith in the west, which is, you know, we used to have the fast and then the feast, and now we have the feast and then the hangover. Another line, I think it was by Richard Niebuhr said, the religion now in the west is a God without wrath, leads a people without sin into a kingdom without judgment, through the ministrations of a Christ without a cross. Us.

[Sabatina James]

Yes, yes. And so this is. This is what I am seeing in everyday life, you know, and I recently, after Mass, said to this young woman, I said, you know, it's very important.

That we pray for the persecuted. And she is this traditional Catholic, a lot of kids. And, you know, I think, oh, she's going to get it. And she said, you know.

The Nigerians may suffer their cross, but I've got all these children. So we have different crosses.

[Michael]

No, they have literal crosses. They have literal crosses.

[Sabatina James]

But here's the thing, you know, you have a seminarian burned alive. That's the same as having six kids. So having six kids is the same.

As having your six kids.

Murdered by Boko Haram. Is that. Where is the logic in that? And it is. Just astonishes me. And people always tell me, oh, you know, we're Americans, we're going to conquer Islam if it comes to us. And so you're going to conquer nothing.

[Michael]

You're going to conquer nothing.

[Sabatina James]

Most people in America are struggling to cope with facts of life, raising kids, challenging, I'm sure. I mean, I've got one friend, she's got eight kids, so I know exactly what she's talking about.

[Michael]

It's a lot. Grocery store trips are difficult.

[Sabatina James]

But I just think.

If you really want to conquer Islam.

Stand up to Islam, you need the ability to suffer.

[Michael]

We mentioned Hilaire Belloq earlier. Belloq writes in his book on the Crusades. He says, you know, look, the Christians lost at the point of Damascus, and had they taken Damascus, Islam would have been broken. But they didn't. And actually, Islam remains structurally sound. It's our faith that is weakened. It's our faith that is cracked. And he's predicting in 1930, whenever he wrote it, that Islam, though it seemed somewhat dormant, would rise again.

[Sabatina James]

Yes. The church has been too focused on Marxism.

And they let radical Islam rise. I mean, even right now, I'm just looking at it. It's just. What is going on with the conservative movements? I mean, I think the Islamic Brotherhood should send them thank you cards for distraction. Just going to. Good. Let them do this.

Just this is. This is.

[Michael]

Of all the things you point out, all the obsessions you mentioned, you know, they're either obsessed with the Jews or the liturgy. And I love.

[Sabatina James]

I love the liturgy. I think it's. It's more. It's the devil everyone wants to hear more about.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

What happens and all these stories. And it's. And. And I asked myself, why is that? And I said, therapeutic faith. They want entertainment. Yes, it's entertainment. And the thing with the Jews, and I don't want to get into this whole Israel, Palestine thing. I've had enough of jihad in my life. I don't want to. You know, I don't want to. But, you know, I've asked myself.

Why this obsession with the Jews? And I think I have the answer. I think people are trying to explain evil in the world with something else than original sin. And it is always easy to point at other people because we are complete narcissists, because we can't look at ourselves and our own sinfulness. And, hey, I'm amazing. Look at me.

[Michael]

Can't be me. Look, can't be me.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah, it's just. And you see that narcissism absolutely everywhere. I mean, we have the west coming to an end, and people are rejoicing about how amazing everything is. Like, the church is doing so well. And I actually asked that someone, why do you think American church is such a blessing to.

The world? Because he actually said that. And here's what he said. Well, Mike Schmidt has so and so many million downloads. Bishop Barron has so and so many million views.

So in the persecuted church, you know, we're always competing who has suffered more contempt for Jesus Christ. You got the American Christian. He's got more followers. He's a saint.

I'm just going, no.

How do you measure love? Jesus said, by this, people will know that you are my followers.

That you love one another. Okay, so it's measured by sacrificial love, not by clicks.

[Michael]

But then what does one do in the. In the rich? The other thing I thought you were gonna say, the reason the American church is such a blessing is cause we're rich. So we still give money, you know. But you say money. That's true. What's that? That's true.

[Sabatina James]

I have Never asked anyone for money. We don't even fundraise. We are crazy. We're like Mother Teresa. God is going to send it. My foundation was saying, do you think we should put an account number somewhere? I was like, well, they will find us.

They can reach out to Michael Nolan.

[Michael]

That's very trusting. I'm sure I will get many requests to donate because it raises a real question, which is, you know, the money and the clicks and the views and that can all be great, you know. But then what do we do in a culture where, well, we'll see how Mom Dawnistan turns out in New York or all the rest of it. But for right now at least, we don't suffer much persecution. Sometimes the federal government spies on our churches or something under Joe Biden. But then what do we do when we are happily not being pursued by Boko Haram? What are American Christians supposed to do?

[Sabatina James]

American Christians.

Have the responsibility to pray for the persecuted. And.

I think every family should make it a habit to say at least one. Our Father for the persecuted church every single day. We have 13 martyrs in Nigeria alone every single day. And we should not only pray in our family, but also in our parishes.

But what I'm seeing is that.

The churches do not want to engage in this. I have spoken to countless priests.

And.

They will engage with everything but Islam.

[Michael]

Why is that, do you think?

[Sabatina James]

I think.

The persecuted, the bishops and the priests have learned that the easiest way to disturb a peaceful life is by criticizing Islam. They probably learned that from Pope Benedict. And so they have traded the truth for diplomacy. And the persecuted are sacrificed on the altar of inter religious dialogue. That's what's happening. Let me give you an example how that looks practically. I have a friend, he's probably going to watch this. His name is Nassar. He's a Pakistani Christian. He was a Muslim who converted in England.

And his Muslim neighbors wanted to carry out Muhammad's demand of killing him. And they tried several times. One time when he stepped out of his house, they were standing there with a pickaxe and tried to kill him. They smashed his kneecap.

And his hands, but he survived. Then they tried to burn down his house, threatened to rape his girls. He's got a big family of six children. And then.

Armed police stood at his door and had to relocate him.

Burdened with this weight, he went to the church, in his case the Anglican Church.

And they were all about interfaith harmony. It disturbs what he says disturbs the interfaith harmony.

[Michael]

It certainly does.

[Sabatina James]

And that was the priority, not the suffering of a man who had chosen Christ. And this is what I see happening in America as well, when I speak to priests.

And we can all try to open their eyes. I'm sending.

Some of my books to the bishops. Let's see how they respond. Because I did write letters in Germany to all the bishops that I've ever heard of. And I had one request. Will you be willing to meet with the persecuted Christians not in Afghanistan, not in Tehran, not in Pakistan, but in your own dioceses in Germany?

Not one of them was willing to meet the persecuted. So all these young men who had fled Islamic State came to Germany and then in the refugee homes were.

Attacked by radical Islamists. And one of them was. Had blood on his face. I mean, it was terrifying. That was the diocese of Cardinal Marx, by the way. And he had blood on his face. And.

He tried to reach out to his church. No one helped. No one. Because.

If you do that, you are challenging Islam. And we don't want to do that because that can.

Cost you your reputation through being labeled an Islamophobic or your head like that of Theophan Goch.

[Michael]

Right.

[Sabatina James]

In Holland.

[Michael]

It's a beautiful observation. And it ties in exactly with that first kind of revelation that brought you to the church, which is. Well, it's actually Christ on the cross.

[Sabatina James]

Yes.

[Michael]

And what distinctly does Islam deny, reject as Christ on the cross?

[Sabatina James]

Well, Islam denies that he was crucified. They say that someone who looked like him was crucified, that he walked away.

[Michael]

They crucified him.

[Sabatina James]

Not.

[Michael]

Right.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Do you think many Americans watching this will say, yeah, well, I'm very sorry for everything she went through. That's really tough. Very traumatic in Pakistan and Europe and everything. And yeah, you know, we have Dearborn and the Mamdani guy in New York and whatever, but, you know, it's just Islam is not a real threat in America. The Muslims who come here are going to assimilate. They're going to be lured in, if not by Christianity, then at least by the decadence of the liberal, secular West. And it's just not going to happen. She just doesn't understand how resilient American culture is to this kind of thing.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah, I hear that all the time. The American naivete. First of all, dear Americans.

I love you.

[Michael]

I feel a butt coming out. Where's the butt?

[Sabatina James]

But you are probably the most. The most inclusive and the most naive people on planet Earth.

I mean, you ask an American, will you pray for an Armenian?

And what comes back is, what's an Armenian.

[Michael]

What's an Armenian?

[Sabatina James]

What's an Armenian? Probably the oldest Christians on planet Earth, but you know what?

[Michael]

Christian before the Edict of Milan.

[Sabatina James]

But they don't have Joel Osteen, so they don't matter.

[Michael]

I was speaking to a friend of mine who does a lot of work for persecuted Christians in the Middle East, Father Ben Keely, and he mentioned that he'll have these people very well. Meaning they say we need to send missionaries to go convert people in places like Armenia or the Middle East. You know, they were Christian a lot longer before you were, actually.

[Sabatina James]

But.

I think the greatest problem is that.

People believe that Islam is a religion like any other, so that when the Muslims come, they're just going to assimilate like the Italians do or.

The Irish did. You know, the problem with Islam is that it teaches that anyone who follows Christian customs.

Is among the three most hated people, by Allah. So how would you like to be a faithful Muslim and then integrate into Christian society?

[Michael]

Who are the other two?

[Sabatina James]

Sorry?

[Michael]

Among the three most hated people, what are the other two?

[Sabatina James]

I don't know. I just. I don't want to say anything. I just had this quote from the Hadith recently. I do not know that. And yeah, so I think what's happening is they think when Muslims come here, their religion is a religion of peace because that's how it has been advertised. But I think the first question they need to ask themselves is if Islam is a religion of peace, why does it threaten to kill those who leave it? That's number one. And secondly, I honestly don't understand why people are even confused about this questions. We don't need to speculate over the fact whether Islam is a religion of peace or not. We have thousand 400 years of history to prove that it is not. And then I think the other thing that is important to understand is the definition of peace. How do you define peace?

[Michael]

Well, peace would ultimately, there's only one peace that one finds in the Prince of peace. But most people would say peace is just the absence of conflict.

[Sabatina James]

Conflict, okay.

[Michael]

At a basic level.

[Sabatina James]

So this is what we learn in the madrasa. Peace is when the entire world is submitted to Islam and Sharia law. And this is the peace of the Islamic brotherhood that is working very hard to Islamize America. And you think you still have religious liberty?

I heard of these evangelists who went to Dearborn, Michigan to distribute Bibles on a public sidewalk. Within minutes, police stopped them. American police officers. And they had to stop distributing Bibles on a public sidewalk. Hey, Muslim area now. Can't do that. And that's the best way to avoid conflict. Let them live their parallel lives. But you know what happens when you have parallel societies? That's what my last book was in Germany. Sharia in Germany, the parallel judiciary system, which is a real thing, that when once these parallel societies form, they do not follow the law of the country, they follow Sharia law.

And then you have a parallel judicial system, and that is the end of justice. And you know, who suffers the most are actually.

Women and girls and all the minorities that these people always talk about. You know, the gays, you know, the gays in Pakistan and in Iran. Iran is executing gays, you know, all the time. Do you hear anyone talk about this? No one. It's just that Christians are being accused of the things that Muslims are doing in reality.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Right.

[Michael]

This happened after 9 11. There was the new atheist movement where these four writers all attacked Christianity. And I felt it was such a bait and switch because they were capitalizing on people's horror at an action by Islam, but they didn't want to be Islamophobic or xenophobic, whatever. So then they just substituted animosity for Christianity.

[Sabatina James]

Exactly. And I think.

Look.

They murdered Charlie Kirk and.

They accused Charlie Kirk of things he never said. Okay, and this is anti gay and this. And then on the other hand, you have people who are actually not just saying it, but also executing them. And nothing happens. You can't even name it. You can't even name it. And so this is why I think that this whole movement is not about human rights. It's not about caring for the gays. They don't care for the gays. Goodness sakes, they don't care. They come to me when they need help, you know, please help me. Just had one from Saudi Arabia.

Because.

The whole movement will say that they care for women, they care for homosexuals, but in the end, the human rights movements here are about anti Christianity. It's not about those people. Yes, because then otherwise they would care for those.

[Michael]

Because the question on my mind, which I think people are thinking about is, look at Mamdani. Mamdani is, I guess he's Muslim. He's certainly a radical leftist. Seems kind of like a communist. He's tweeting about queer liberation. Not the most Muslim thing I've ever heard. But then he's palling around with jihadi types. I mean, like co conspirators in the 1993 World Trade center bombing. And so you think, well, hold on. Why is it that now you get Greta Thunberg of the Blessed Sailboat, you know, sailing for the Sun Monster, and she's wearing a keffiyeh.

Why would the left ally with Islamists?

[Sabatina James]

Yes, because I think they have a common enemy, which is Christianity. And that's what multiculturalism is at its core. It's about anti Christianity. And I mean, I am actually horrified to see what is going on in America, but I'm not surprised. I predicted this 10 years ago and when I arrived here and that this is what's going to happen. But I've been an early siren in Europe. I warned Europe when no one else was warning Europe and no one wanted to listen. And now people are not safe in Europe anymore. 2023, in Germany, there were about 9,000 knife attacks.

And so bomb plots and knife attacks and rapes of white women. That's the everyday life of Europeans.

[Michael]

I was just in Germany. I wanted to go. It was in October. I said, oh, good, I want to go to an Oktoberfest kind of thing.

[Sabatina James]

Yes.

[Michael]

I said, oh, they actually had to cancel it or really restrict it because of terror attacks. Because of the terror threat.

[Sabatina James]

Yes. You don't have that anymore. I actually put. Because one of the questions.

That I find even more startling than the persecution itself is when Americans ask me, is it really that dangerous?

It's just this willful naivete. So I've literally put out a list of things that have happened just in Europe alone during the time when I was writing this book. Like date by day by day, what is happening every single day. And this is your future. America today is like what Europe was 15 years ago. And I think America is going to go down quicker because there's a greater naivety.

[Michael]

This is one of the nicer characteristics of the Americans. But it's a big weak point, is this kind of innocent optimism that things are just.

[Sabatina James]

You have another weak point, though. I have to say that because I come from the country of Habsburgs.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Sabatina James]

People actually go out in pajamas.

[Michael]

It's awful.

[Sabatina James]

I was at the airport and I saw people in pajamas.

[Michael]

Yes, they were.

[Sabatina James]

That is normal, right?

[Michael]

Oh, all the time people look at me that I'm weird. I rarely will go onto an airplane without a jacket. I don't need a top hat, but I'll wear. Usually I'll have a jacket on or, I don't know, at least a sweater or slacks or something. And they look at me, they say, michael, are you going to the opera or something? Why are you dressing? I say, usually not even wearing a tie. They say, why are you wearing. People they wear, like, tight pants or. What am I, like, spandex? Spandex, yeah.

[Sabatina James]

The ones that's what we wear under skiing clothes in Austria.

You should have the sign a spandex is. Spandex is a privilege, not a right. Yeah.

[Michael]

There was a time when spandex is what we wore under our clothes. That was. Anyway, yeah, I. I agree. It's the innocence that could allow all sorts of hostile forces to take over. And also, people need to dress a little better. I agree. I totally agree.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah.

But, hey, I do love the Americans, you know, just.

[Michael]

But then what's your prediction when, you know, just to kind of bring it, I guess, full circle. You have a figure now, like Mamdani in New York. You have what you're seeing in Dearborn and what you seeing in Minnesota and elsewhere, Texas even. You know, this is really kind of spreading. What's the end of that?

[Sabatina James]

I believe Mamdani is going to work for the furtherment of Islam and not for the people that voted for him. And you can see that very clearly in his message. Whenever he appears before Muslims, it's all about Islam. And why Islam, why they should vote for him. Because he's a Muslim. Okay? And then he comes to the.

Infidels and he preaches a different message to them. He couldn't, you know, growing up, if Christians are addicted with drugs or if they are homosexual, let them rot. Fine. We care about our people. I would believe Mamdani if he would go to the same areas of New York where I have gone as a migrant, but I have bought books about jihad in New York City.

[Michael]

In New York.

[Sabatina James]

In New York. And that. And if he would preach that message there in the mosque, I am for queer liberation.

You know? No, he's not stupid. He goes to these people. He knows this is how you change their minds. And it's all about free childcare and free housing, free houses and free Palestine.

[Michael]

Yeah, free Palestine. We'll give you free groceries and we'll throw in a Palestine with that.

[Sabatina James]

Free Palestine.

[Michael]

But the question that people have is, okay, well, look, he's obviously duplicitous. He's a politician. He's lying to somebody. But the question is, is he lying? Is he basically playing the Muslims to get their votes to advance leftism, or is he playing the secular leftists to get their votes to advance Islam?

[Sabatina James]

Well, we need to look for who was behind his campaign, as it looks like it was the Muslim Brotherhood with care, you know, and.

That is a red flag.

And I think a.

Mayor who takes pictures with, I would say, yeah, he is going to let Islamic radicalism go unchecked.

Because, hey, we've done you favors, you know, and that will be very bad for the safety of New York. And as we were speaking about so many years after 9, 11, that this is happening shows you how hard the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamic organizations have worked to get it there. So my opinion, I think these Islamic organizations have looked at London and they have said, how can we transform New York into London? We need a mayor like Zadig Khan.

[Michael]

You go into him and they have him. You go into London now and you drive.

[Sabatina James]

I can't go into London.

[Michael]

You probably can't go into London. When I go to London, you go east a little bit. You feel like you are in another country.

[Sabatina James]

Yes.

[Michael]

I mean it is Arabic. Every, it's crazy. And.

You'Re saying that's come to New.

[Sabatina James]

York, this is coming to New York and this is coming generally to the U.S. i mean, in Dearborn, Michigan people are already waking up at 5, 30 prayer calls to, you know, and in Minnesota, they're doing it five times a day now. And if you can't even distribute Bibles to these people in your own countries, religious liberty is already at stake. And this is what's going to happen wherever you will have these parallel societies. And you know, people sometimes say to me, yeah, but they're, you know, most Muslims are peaceful. So what are you talking about? This is not going to happen here. And.

I have hardly met one Muslim in America who distances himself from Sharia law and from the Prophet Muhammad's practice of child marriage and the apostasy law. And I actually asked one not afraid. So I asked, she's Muslim. So I said, how do you justify Prophet Muhammad marrying a six year old girl? You are a woman.

She said, first she denied it. And that's what usually happens.

It's not written there. And it's like I'm a madrasa child. It is written there. Go to Sahih al Bukhari. This is the hadith. And then she recognized, oh, okay, it's written there.

And then she said she liked it, the child liked it.

This is how it often happens. Either they completely deny that it exists because they know that most people haven't read the sources so they won't know. They can fool them.

[Michael]

Right?

[Sabatina James]

And then when you point it out, just said, well.

She liked it, she liked it.

[Michael]

This is broadly, this is like a meme in politics now where the left will deny that some terrible thing has happened that they're perpetrating, they'll say, it's not happening. And then when you point out it is, they say, well, it's good that it is. It's not happening, but it's good that it is. Yes, it's. No, it didn't happen. But she liked it.

[Sabatina James]

Yes. And I mean, in my case, what do we do every single day? We are. I am not against Muslim. I'm helping Muslims. My foundation is not just here in the US it's also in Switzerland and in Germany and in Switzerland, that is all that my social workers do. They take care of Muslim girls that are fleeing their family because they were forcefully married or they're underaged and they're forcing them to marry. Even in the west, coming here, coming.

[Michael]

To a city near you already, maybe in a city near you. I guess that also brings us full circle where we say, you know, look, the Americans, a lot of people don't take their faith seriously at all. And the ones who take the faith most seriously, what they've had to offer so far is apologetics, evangelism, you know, spreading the message and clicks and views and. Which is all great, but they've lacked the opportunity to suffer. What you're saying is, well, the opportunity for persecution might be closer than you think.

[Sabatina James]

Oh, yes, but I think the reason they haven't suffered yet is because they haven't evangelized to Muslims yet.

This is. People tell me that all the time. Oh, but this priest said that to me. Yeah, but we are not persecutors. Father, have you ever preached to a Muslim? No, no, no. You're focused on Yale, for goodness sakes. What are you gonna do?

[Michael]

You know, they're kind of wimpy anyway.

[Sabatina James]

They're not gonna do anything, right? So it's easy peasy. Looks good. Instagram pictures. Look. Preaching to atheists. Yeah, well, some of them are vicious. But seriously.

Most atheists that I know.

Are actually concerned about Islam. And in Germany, there have been only a few voices to challenge Islam. And beside me, it is my. It's Hamid Abdel Samad. He's an Egyptian atheist who has been challenging radical Islam. He's under 24 hours police protection. He can't even go to the toilet.

Without a guard standing outside there. This is his daily life. He cannot go to a restaurant. First the police has to go in there, check for Muslim migrants. And then, as he recently said, well, they checked it out and then said, no, no, that's too dangerous. So he had to leave there. And it's especially Hard for the Jews now. I mean, it's hard for the Jews everywhere.

[Michael]

Just generally, it sort of is.

[Sabatina James]

You grow up in Pakistan, anything bad happens, it was the Jews in Pakistan.

[Michael]

I didn't even have Jews in Pakistan.

[Sabatina James]

But I always thought it was a Muslim thing.

[Michael]

It's more sort of universal.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. But now they're being persecuted, even in Germany. Yeah, they. It's unbelievable how after the Holocaust, that can happen there, but it is happening. And the.

Yeah. And I think this is what we are going to be importing into America. And anyone who stands up and challenges it has a hard life. I speak out of experience. Because you are a minority within the minority already.

[Michael]

Right, right.

[Sabatina James]

So from the Muslim minority, you are the one who has left, and they persecute you with ruining your reputation in any way possible, whether it's online or anywhere possible. And if they do get their hands on you, like it happened to a friend in Germany who thought, oh, I'm going to take up what you abandoned here in Germany. I'm going to preach the truth about Islam to people publicly. Yeah. He was just recently stabbed, and the policeman that tried to rescue him was stabbed to death by the same guy that's with police protection. And people say, oh, but you don't have to be scared, because this is America. Look what happened to Salman Rushdie.

[Michael]

Right.

[Sabatina James]

Salman Rushdie was sentenced to death through Iran. Okay. Iran is so far away.

30 years. He lived in relative peace. And after 30 years, someone was still found to carry out that death sentence in New York City.

[Michael]

Stabbed his eye out.

[Sabatina James]

Stabbed his eye out.

And this is what I'm talking about. So.

We need to be peacemakers, and peacemakers are people that engage in conflict.

And that people that do not remain silent, then it would be way easier to remain silent. And this is actually one of the things I learned when that body was thrown on my car in Pakistan, that there can be no courage without vulnerability.

You need to make yourself vulnerable for the sake of the truth.

[Michael]

Sabatina James.

[Sabatina James]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael]

Thank you for coming in.

[Sabatina James]

It was a pleasure.

[Michael]

You have a book that people should all see, the Price of Love. You've written multiple books. You have a foundation that doesn't raise money, but people are not the one to give you money. Is there any way that they can do that?

[Sabatina James]

Yes, they can. For now, reach out to you, and you can forward it to us.

[Michael]

Reach out to me. I'll try to connect secretly. Sabatina, thank you so much for coming.

[Sabatina James]

Of course. It was a pleasure.

Illusion. An echo of a voice that has died.

And soon that echo will cease.

[Narrator]

They say that Merlin is mad.

They say he was a king in Dovered, the son of a princess of lost Atlantis. They say the future and the past are known to him. That the fire and the wind tell him their secrets. That the magic of the hill folk and druids come forth at his easy command.

They say he slew hundreds.

[Sponsor Voice]

Hundreds?

[Narrator]

Hundreds. Do you hear that? The world burned and trembled at his wrath.

The Merlin died long before you and I were born.

Merlin. Emrys has returned to the land of the living.

Vortigern is gone. Roman's gone.

[Sabatina James]

The Saxon is here.

[Narrator]

Saxon Hengist has assembled the greatest war host ever seen in the island of the Mighty. And before the summer is through, he means to take the throne.

And he will have it, if we are too busy squabbling amongst ourselves to take up arms against him. Here is your hope. A king will arise to hold all Britain in his hand. A high king who will be the wonder of the world.

[Michael]

You.

To a future of peace.

[Narrator]

There'll be no peace in these lands till we are all dust.

[Sabatina James]

Men of the island of the Mighty, you stand together.

You stand as Britons.

[Narrator]

You stand as worn.

Great darkness is falling upon this land.

These brothers are our only hope to stand against it.

[Michael]

Not our only hope.

[Narrator]

They say Merlin slew 17 men with his own hands. I could say he slew 500.

No man is capable of such a thing. No mortal man.

[Sponsor Voice]

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