Michael Knowles V Matt Fradd: “Christian Heresies" FACE-OFF

Summary

The Michael Knowles Show: Michael Knowles vs. Matt Fradd – “Christian Heresies" FACE-OFF
Release Date: April 27, 2025
Duration: Approximately 24 minutes

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Introduction

In this exhilarating episode of The Michael Knowles Show, host Michael Knowles engages in a spirited intellectual duel with Matt Fradd, a well-known Catholic apologist. Moderated by Ben Shapiro, this "Face-Off" challenges both participants' knowledge of Christian heresies, testing their theological acumen and quick-thinking under pressure.

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Face-Off Format and Rules

The segment kicks off with Ben Shapiro outlining the competitive format:

Ben Shapiro [00:24]: "The two men stepping into today's intellectual arena, Michael Knowles and Matt Fradd... we will find out who really knows more about Catholic heresies."

Participants answer a series of multiple-choice questions within a 30-second time frame. The stakes are high: the loser must deliver a 30-second commercial for the winner, conceding that John Calvin had some good points.

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Round-by-Round Breakdown

Question 1: The Bone Most Often Broken by Heretics

• Time: [00:00]
• Question: Which Catholic group has been condemned for heretical views and for rejecting the legitimacy of modern popes?
• Options: A) Jesuits, B) Legionnaires of Christ, C) Society of Saint Pius X, D) Opus Dei
• Responses:
  • Matt Fradd [00:13]: "Oh, he's got none of these, right."
  • Michael Knowles [00:15]: "Yeah."

Ben Shapiro reveals the correct answer:

Ben Shapiro [03:04]: "The word we're looking for is the blasphemer."

Both participants grapple with the question, showcasing their differing depths of knowledge.

Question 2: Heresy Concerning Jesus as a Creation of God

• Time: [03:26]
• Question: If someone claims Jesus is a creation of God and therefore distinct from God, what heresy are they guilty of?
• Options: A) Nestorianism, B) Modalism, C) Docetism, D) Arianism
• Responses:
  • Michael Knowles [03:56]: "It's Arianism, right?"
  • Matt Fradd [03:58]: "The easiest of the early church heresies."

Correct Answer: D) Arianism

Question 3: Last Official Execution for Heresy

• Time: [04:17]
• Question: When was the last official execution for heresy?
• Responses:
  • Michael Knowles [04:41]: "I say 1609."
  • Matt Fradd [04:35]: "1452... 380."

Correct Answer: 1612, with the execution of Edward Whiteman in England.

Question 4: Sect That Claimed Jesus Was Only Non-Divine

• Time: [05:38]
• Question: Which heresy claims that Jesus was only a non-divine man who was later adopted as the son of God by the descending Spirit?
• Options: A) Ibnism, B) Adoptism, C) Audainism, D) Unitarianism
• Response:
  • Michael Knowles [06:00]: "Is adoptionism."

Correct Answer: B) Adoptism

Question 5: Heretical Group Rejecting Chocolate (Skipped)

• No record of such a question; possibly a mishearing.

Question 6: Heresy Affirming Jesus as Savior but Rejecting Hebrew Bible

• Time: [09:04]
• Question: Which heresy affirmed Jesus as savior but rejected the Hebrew Bible and described the Old Testament God as a lesser wrathful deity?
• Options: A) Docetism, B) Ebonism, C) Marcionism, D) Adoptism
• Response:
  • Michael Knowles [09:37]: "Marcianism."

Correct Answer: C) Marcionism

Question 7: Rejecting Divinity and Messiahship of Jesus While Adhering to Old Testament Law

• Time: [09:52]
• Question: Which heresy rejected both the divinity and messiahship of Jesus while adhering to Old Testament law?
• Options: A) Gnosticism, B) Arianism, C) Manichaeism, D) Rabbinic Judaism
• Response:
  • Michael Knowles [10:20]: "D, Rabbinical Judaism."

Correct Answer: D) Rabbinic Judaism

Question 8: Year Roman Empire Criminalized Heresy

• Time: [10:50]
• Question: In what year did the Roman Empire criminalize heresy through the Edict of Thessalonica?
• Responses:
  • Michael Knowles [11:20]: "315."
  • Matt Fradd [11:23]: "380."

Correct Answer: 380

Question 9: Priscillian’s Heresy

• Time: [11:48]
• Question: What was Priscillian, the first Christian executed for heresy by Roman officials in 386, formally condemned for?
• Options: A) Denying the Trinity, B) Practicing sorcery, C) Teaching Pelagianism, D) Desecrating sacraments
• Response:
  • Matt Fradd [12:19]: "Frad gets one completely convinced the whole time."

Correct Answer: B) Practicing sorcery

Question 10: Classification of Heretic Denying Church Teaching Unknowingly

• Time: [12:46]
• Question: If someone denies church teaching unknowingly, what classification of heretic are they?
• Responses:
  • Michael Knowles [13:17]: "Venial sinning heretic."
  • Matt Fradd [13:05]: "Material heretic."

Correct Answer: Material heretic

Question 11: Catholic Group Condemned for Rejecting Modern Popes

• Time: [14:09]
• Question: Which Catholic group has been condemned for heretical views and for rejecting the legitimacy of modern popes?
• Options: A) Jesuits, B) Legionnaires of Christ, C) Society of Saint Pius X, D) Opus Dei
• Response:
  • Matt Fradd [14:39]: "None of these."

Correct Answer: C) Society of Saint Pius X (SPX)

Question 12: Pope Who Declared Heretics Worse Than Muslims

• Time: [17:44]
• Question: Which Pope once declared heretics to be worse than Muslims?
• Options: A) Pope Innocent III, B) Pope Urban II, C) Pope Gregory IX, D) Pope Benedict IX
• Response:
  • Michael Knowles [18:07]: "B, Pope Urban II."

Correct Answer: C) Pope Gregory IX

Question 13: Heresy Targeted by Albigensian Crusade

• Time: [19:13]
• Question: Which heresy did the Catholic Church launch the Albigensian Crusade to suppress?
• Options: A) Montanism, B) Donatism, C) Catharism, D) Nestorianism
• Response:
  • Michael Knowles [19:19]: "Albigensianism."

Correct Answer: C) Catharism

Question 14: Heresy Introduced by Gottfried Thomas Claiming Jesus Gave Up Divine Attributes

• Time: [19:44]
• Question: What was the heresy introduced by Gottfried Thomas that claimed Jesus gave up some divine attributes in his incarnate state?
• Options: A) Mortalism, B) Kenosis, C) Humanic Christianity, D) Removism
• Response:
  • Michael Knowles [20:14]: "Humanic Christianity."

Correct Answer: B) Kenosis

Bonus Question: Heretics Burned During Queen Mary I’s Reign

• Time: [20:59]
• Question: How many heretics were burned at the stake during Queen Mary I of England’s reign? (Estimation)
• Responses:
  • Michael Knowles [21:59]: "90."
  • Matt Fradd [21:53]: "1,000."

Correct Answer: Approximately 280 heretics

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Competitive Dynamics and Strategies

Throughout the Face-Off, both Knowles and Fradd exhibit differing levels of expertise and strategic approaches:

• Michael Knowles demonstrates confidence and attempts educated guesses, particularly excelling in the numerical estimations, albeit with mixed success.

  Michael Knowles [05:06]: "I think the Italians are pretty chill."

• Matt Fradd, leveraging his background in Catholic theology, provides correct answers to several complex questions but occasionally falters under time pressure or due to the ambiguity of questions.

  Matt Fradd [14:27]: "I think I got it."

Their banter and mutual respect add a dynamic layer to the competition, highlighting both camaraderie and rivalry.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ben Shapiro [00:24]: "The two men stepping into today's intellectual arena, Michael Knowles and Matt Fradd... we will find out who really knows more about Catholic heresies."

• Matt Fradd [05:59]: "Well, I can't show him, can I?"

• Michael Knowles [09:37]: "Marcianism."

• Ben Shapiro [18:09]: "The answer is C. Pope Gregory ix."

• Matt Fradd [22:15]: "You win some, you lose some."

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Conclusion and Outcome

As the competition intensifies, both Knowles and Fradd find themselves neck and neck. The final bonus question proves pivotal, with Michael Knowles narrowly missing the correct number of heretics burned during Queen Mary I’s reign:

Michael Knowles [21:59]: "I said 90."

Ben Shapiro declares Matt Fradd the winner based on the closest answer:

Ben Shapiro [22:11]: "The correct answer is 280."

In accordance with the rules, Matt Fradd delivers a 30-second commercial praising Michael Knowles, humorously acknowledging Knowles' personable traits despite the competitive exchange.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Michael Knowles Show showcases a compelling blend of theological discourse and competitive spirit. While Matt Fradd emerges victorious, both participants exhibit a deep-seated knowledge of Christian heresies, making the Face-Off both educational and entertaining for listeners. The respectful yet competitive interaction underscores the show's commitment to intellectual engagement and theological exploration.

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For more insightful debates and in-depth analyses, subscribe to The Michael Knowles Show on The Daily Wire.

Transcript

[Ben Shapiro]

Which Catholic group has been condemned for heretical views and for rejecting the legitimacy of modern popes? Is it A, the Jesuits, B, the Legionnaires of Christ, C, the Society of Saint Pius X? D, Opus dei.

[Matt Fradd]

Oh, he's got none of these, right.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And he doesn't even realize it.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Ben Shapiro]

Do we have to throw this one out? Because, like, we.

[Matt Fradd]

No, we should leave it. I want your ignorance to be on.

[Michael Knowles]

Full display as mine is.

[Ben Shapiro]

What is a heresy? I don't know. I'm a non denominational Christian. But do you know who does know and may or may not be guilty of a few? The two men stepping into today's intellectual arena, Michael Knowles and Matt Fradd. One of them has spent a life studying the writings of Aquinas, memorizing councils and years with a dialect coach to develop a convincing Australian accent. The other has attempted the Bible in a year plan at least a dozen times and hasn't made it past Second Kings. I won't say who's who, but today we will find out who really knows more about Catholic heresies. Here's how we play. I will read a question. Each podcaster will have 30 seconds to write down their answer, and in the end, the loser will be forced to give a 30 second commercial for the winner and admit that John Calvin had some good points. This is Face Off, Harrison.

[Michael Knowles]

It's wonderful to be on my own show. I'm a little nervous, though, because last I checked, Mr. Frad has his own Catholic AI company. Is that right? Truthfully. So how do I know you're not just plugged in there pulling up all the answers?

[Matt Fradd]

Because I also believe that it's always immoral, without exception, to lie. And so if you believe that, then I don't have anything pulled up.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay.

[Michael Knowles]

All right, thank you.

[Matt Fradd]

People should go check out. Truthly, it's like ChatGPT went through OCIA, got baptized, and is now the best evangelist. So check it out. Thank you for pointing that out.

[Michael Knowles]

Certainly. I hope that I get to light up a pints with Aquinas cigar later. But for now, shall we turn to the resident heretic to ask the questions?

[Ben Shapiro]

I think we should. I'm glad that Matt couched that, that he's always on us because he has a computer in front of him and can Google any of these questions.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Ben Shapiro]

But I will say, as long as.

[Matt Fradd]

My hands aren't by the keyboard, by the way, I'm going to fail this. I literally asked before we click record, what is this on? So I haven't spent much time yeah. Here we go.

[Michael Knowles]

Go for it. That'll level out the playing field.

[Ben Shapiro]

Okay, Matt, if it makes you feel better, win or lose, you do have the better oil painting on your set. Like, hands down, your pa. More impressive than Michael.

[Matt Fradd]

So unless you're a iconoclast. Come on. Sorry.

[Michael Knowles]

Wow. All right, starting out strong.

[Ben Shapiro]

All right, here we go. First question. What's the bone most often broken by heretics?

[Matt Fradd]

What does that even mean? I got to write that down.

[Michael Knowles]

What is the bone broken by heretics? The.

[Matt Fradd]

Do we have to write this on the. Our board?

[Ben Shapiro]

Yes. 10 seconds. Get the rights. Something, quick.

[Matt Fradd]

I got no idea. I got nothing.

[Ben Shapiro]

And time.

[Michael Knowles]

Does it play on, like, orthopedics or something?

[Ben Shapiro]

I'm sorry, gentlemen. The word we're looking for is the blasphemer. The blasphemer?

[Michael Knowles]

Blasphemer. No, that's the bone that constitutes the heretics. The bone that the heretic breaks is like some play on orthodoxy.

[Ben Shapiro]

Listen, you're not an expert on rules. The question was what it was, and you guys are both starting 00. So here we go.

[Michael Knowles]

This is not.

[Ben Shapiro]

With the next question, gentlemen, Dial it in. If someone claims Jesus is a creation of God and therefore distinct from God, what heresy are they guilty of? Is it A, Nestorianism, B, modalism, C, docetism, D, Aryanism?

[Matt Fradd]

Well, I can't show him, can I?

[Ben Shapiro]

Don't show yet. Don't show yet. Brad, don't do it.

[Michael Knowles]

I can't read. I don't have my glasses on.

[Ben Shapiro]

I just go on, Michael.

[Michael Knowles]

I'm ready. I wrote it.

[Ben Shapiro]

I feel pretty confident that this is.

[Matt Fradd]

The easiest of the early church heresies.

[Ben Shapiro]

Come on. Why don't you show the audience first, then the Aryan.

[Michael Knowles]

It's Arianism, right? What is Nestorianism? I kind of like. I know that was the one that Muhammad encountered. I think that one actually, like, started Islam. But I forget exactly what that one is.

[Matt Fradd]

I can teach you right now, but it might be a future question.

[Michael Knowles]

It might be a question. You're right. Hold off on it.

[Ben Shapiro]

It may be. Number two, when was the last official execution for heresy? And this is closest without going over. Give me the year.

[Matt Fradd]

Oh, my gosh.

[Ben Shapiro]

Last year, the official. Because there were some, you know, I have no idea, wild priests that may have done a thing or two. But official. What year was it?

[Matt Fradd]

I mean, I'm just going to guess. How's that?

[Ben Shapiro]

Closest without going over. So remember the rules. Closest without going over.

[Michael Knowles]

All right.

[Matt Fradd]

And here's. Gosh. Official by who? The state yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, oh, shoot. The state or the church?

[Matt Fradd]

No, it's not the church. Where does one begin and the other end? That's the question.

[Michael Knowles]

Make a great point.

[Matt Fradd]

You ready?

[Ben Shapiro]

All right, Knowles, what do you got?

[Michael Knowles]

I say 1609.

[Matt Fradd]

I said 1452 for no reason except it was a blind shot in the dark.

[Ben Shapiro]

Michael, that was very impressive. It was 1612.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes. I only said 1611. And I don't know why, but I was like, let me go. Who was it?

[Ben Shapiro]

Edward Whiteman was the last person executed for heresy in England. Let's go in 1612.

[Matt Fradd]

All right.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, I did have England in my mind.

[Matt Fradd]

Church.

[Ben Shapiro]

Let's go. Yeah, England. I thought for sure it'd be like in Italy or something, but no. England.

[Michael Knowles]

The Italians are pretty chill.

[Matt Fradd]

Actually.

[Michael Knowles]

They don't. The mob kills people, but the Italians, I disagree.

[Matt Fradd]

I've driven through Rome. It was anything but chill.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, they're all frenetic. They're just not really doing anything.

[Ben Shapiro]

All right, number three. Which heresy claims that Jesus was only a non divine man who was later adopted as the son of God by the descending Spirit? Is it A, Ibnism, B, Adoptism, C, Audainism, D, Unitarianism? Lot isn't all right.

[Michael Knowles]

Wasn't it like in the name?

[Ben Shapiro]

Let's go.

[Matt Fradd]

That's what I was thinking. You could have been a little bit more B.

[Michael Knowles]

Is adoptionism.

[Ben Shapiro]

The correct answer is B, adoptism.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay. Your pronunciation of these heresies, by the way, is really funny because it's hard.

[Ben Shapiro]

Reading these things off. As a Protestant who's never been aware of any of these. Like, it's very hard.

[Michael Knowles]

You just believed them. You haven't been aware of them. You've just held them. More heresies in a moment. First though, if you want to get the latest news and if you want to understand what the news actually means, come check out and subscribe. The Michael Knowles Show. Every weekday at noon Eastern, I will take you beneath the surface of daily political events to reveal their historical, philosophical, even religious roots. Catch it Monday through Friday at noon Eastern. Now back to Face Off Heresies with Matt Fradd.

[Ben Shapiro]

Alright, number four, which militant heretical group rejected property, demanded all debts be canceled and glorified martyrdom? Is it A, the Donastis, B, Albigensians, C, Circumcilians? Or D, Democrats?

[Michael Knowles]

I think I am.

[Matt Fradd]

I think I got it.

[Ben Shapiro]

All right, what do you have?

[Michael Knowles]

Is it the Albigensians?

[Ben Shapiro]

The correct answer is C, the Circumcilians.

[Michael Knowles]

Circumcilians, huh?

[Matt Fradd]

I've never heard of them.

[Ben Shapiro]

Those pesky circumcilians.

[Michael Knowles]

Cause the Albigensians also were militant and pro. Like death and sort of commies. Yeah. Interesting. I kind of want partial credit for that. I mean, I don't care. I guess I was canceled out. But I think that would also describe the Albigensians.

[Matt Fradd]

Well, the Albigensians were dualists. They were also known as the Cathars, weren't they?

[Michael Knowles]

The Cathars, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

They were big into poverty and ascetical practices. And that's actually why the Dominicans and Franciscans arose. Well, you know, the difference sort of response to them.

[Michael Knowles]

Matt, you know the difference between. Do you know the similarities and differences between the Jesuits and the Dominicans?

[Matt Fradd]

Okay, I'm thinking this is a joke. No.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, well, they're both orders of the Catholic Church. Both Spanish. Founded by Spaniards. Spanish orders? St. Dominic and St. Ignatius of Loyola. But they're both founded to combat heresy. The Dominicans founded to combat Albigensianism. The Jesuits founded to combat Protestantism. But you know the difference between the orders.

[Matt Fradd]

What's the difference?

[Michael Knowles]

When's the last time you ever heard of an Albigensian?

[Matt Fradd]

That's good. I heard that, actually, from Peter Kreeft. Now that you bring it up, that's good. Yeah.

[Ben Shapiro]

Did I miss something? I don't get it.

[Michael Knowles]

Anyway. Anyway, we'll be here all night. Tip your waitress.

[Ben Shapiro]

Anyway. All right, number five. Which early Jewish Christian sect claimed Jesus was the Messiah but not divine and insisted on following the Mosaic Law? Is it A, the Marcionites. B, the Sadducees. C, Ebanites. D, Nestorians.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay, are you ready?

[Michael Knowles]

I think that was Ebiotism. Is that Ebiotism?

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Ben Shapiro]

The correct answer is C. The Ebionites.

[Michael Knowles]

Ebonites. I thought it was Ebiotism.

[Ben Shapiro]

According to whatever translation this is Ebonites, like ebony. But I mean, that's correct. I mean, that's the. Right.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. Okay. All right.

[Ben Shapiro]

That's the sect of people, though not like their ism. That was like the sect of people.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. Who are you talking about? Those people. Okay.

[Ben Shapiro]

It's the Jesuits. All right, number six. Which heresy affirmed Jesus as savior, but rejected the Hebrew Bible and described the Old Testament God as a lesser wrathful deity? Is it A, Docetism, B, Ebonism, C, Marcionism. D, Adoptism.

[Matt Fradd]

And at some point, I'd like a score count because I'm pretty sure he's winning. You ready?

[Ben Shapiro]

We can do that.

[Michael Knowles]

That would be Marcianism.

[Ben Shapiro]

C. That is correct. C, Marcianism. And can we get A score count from the control room. Knowles, 5. Frad 4. This is getting close, gentlemen.

[Matt Fradd]

Neck to neck.

[Michael Knowles]

Whoa. All right.

[Ben Shapiro]

If only you had had the blasphemer.

[Michael Knowles]

We'D be the blasphemer. Yeah, I really want to challenge that one.

[Ben Shapiro]

But anyway, number seven. Which heresy rejected both the divinity and messiahship of Jesus while adhering to Old Testament law? Is it A, Gnosticism, B, Arianism, C, Manichaeism, D, Rabbinic Judaism.

[Michael Knowles]

And this is the one that gets us fired from the Daily Wire. Okay, that's fine. Would that be D, Rabbinical Judaism?

[Matt Fradd]

Ben Shapiro.

[Ben Shapiro]

I will take either. It is Rabbinic Judaism.

[Michael Knowles]

Do we call it the. Would you call Judaism a heresy?

[Ben Shapiro]

According to Google heresies, doesn't a heresy.

[Michael Knowles]

Deviate from the religion? So, like, you know, you could call Islam a heresy because it deviates like it's founded because Muhammad meets an historian. But for the rabbinic Jews, if they never believed in any kind of Christianity in the first place, would they be heretics or just infidels?

[Ben Shapiro]

That's what it said. It was a heresy.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Ben Shapiro]

All right, number eight. In what year did the Roman Empire criminalize heresy? Through the Edict of Thessalonica. Through the Edict of Thessalonica. This is the closest without going over again.

[Michael Knowles]

All right, not to be pedantic, I think it's pronounced Thessalonica.

[Matt Fradd]

Right?

[Michael Knowles]

Or am I? Look, maybe you're right. I don't know.

[Matt Fradd]

I don't know, but I'm gonna guess so.

[Ben Shapiro]

Well, Michael's on a guessing hot streak with this whole closer thing.

[Matt Fradd]

I was gonna say 300.

[Michael Knowles]

I said 315.

[Ben Shapiro]

He's such a savage.

[Matt Fradd]

It's 380.

[Ben Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Let's go, baby.

[Ben Shapiro]

380.

[Michael Knowles]

You know why? I figured it had to be after the Edict of Milan which legalizes Christianity. What was that? That was like 3:11 or something. 3:13. Something like that. Wow. Let's go, baby. Oh, man.

[Ben Shapiro]

Just running away with it. Brad's gonna catch up here.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. All right.

[Matt Fradd]

I'm trying to think of my 32nd advertisement. I know it's coming.

[Michael Knowles]

It's gonna be blank. It'll be speechless.

[Ben Shapiro]

All right, number nine. What was Priscillian, who was the first Christian executed for heresy by the Roman officials, officially condemned for in 386? Was it a, denying the Trinity, B, practicing sorcery, C, teaching Pelagianism, D, desecrating sacraments?

[Matt Fradd]

See, my problem is when the name doesn't line up with the heresy, I'm out of luck.

[Ben Shapiro]

Is it B, the Correct answer is B. Practicing sorcery.

[Matt Fradd]

Frad gets one completely convinced the whole time.

[Michael Knowles]

Wow.

[Matt Fradd]

But practicing sorcery, he's still up one.

[Michael Knowles]

Sorcery isn't heresy. Sorcery. Right. Sorcery is bad and sacrilegious, but it's not a heresy.

[Ben Shapiro]

He was a Christian who was doing it. So I think that's.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. Blasphemer. We began with blasphemer. I feel like we kind of hold him too strictly to the.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, you're right. No, you're right. This is in the League of Blasphemer. All right, well, it's getting closer.

[Ben Shapiro]

All right, here we go. If someone denies church teaching unknowingly, what classification of heretic are they? No multiple choice for this.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. All right, I'm ready.

[Ben Shapiro]

I think we have some Catholics at the office that cling to this one. As long as I don't know, I'm good.

[Matt Fradd]

There's quite a lot of things he's writing there.

[Ben Shapiro]

Hopefully he's making a joke about the person we're thinking of.

[Matt Fradd]

Ready?

[Ben Shapiro]

Yep. What do you got, Fred? Is that material heretic?

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Ben Shapiro]

Mike, what do you have?

[Michael Knowles]

I said a venial sinning heretic. Venial. Not mortal, but slash. Anyone who was catechized in the 80s or 90s.

[Ben Shapiro]

That was clever, but it's not right. It is actually material heretic. We are tied up, gentlemen.

[Matt Fradd]

Yikes. Yes, finally.

[Ben Shapiro]

Yikes.

[Michael Knowles]

I guess you're right, because not all material heretics were catechized in the 80s or 90s, but all people who were catechized in the 80s OR 90s have been material heretics. Okay.

[Matt Fradd]

All right, here's the way I remember it. Here's a bit of catechesis with a mnemonic device. So you've got the distinction between material heresy and formal heresy. So with material heresy, you have the material you need to then later be perhaps formed into a serious heresy.

[Michael Knowles]

Wow, that's good.

[Matt Fradd]

I don't know if that helps anybody.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay. All right, I'll take that. Sure.

[Ben Shapiro]

It helps somebody. Maybe it'll help you with this one. Number 11. Which Catholic group has been condemned for heretical views and for rejecting the legitimacy of modern popes? Is it A, the Jesuits? B, the Legionnaires of Christ? C, the Society of Saint Pius X? D, Opus dei.

[Matt Fradd]

Oh, he's got none of these, right?

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And he doesn't even realize it.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. Should we write the real group or like.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, we could write the real group, but it's. It's none of them.

[Ben Shapiro]

Do we have to throw this one out because like we.

[Matt Fradd]

No, we should leave it. I want. I want your ignorance to be on.

[Ben Shapiro]

Full display as mine is some crackpot researchers that have really dug into Catholic heresies since the 80s when I was catechized.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, hold on.

[Matt Fradd]

I mean, I guess you could call these people not even here. Well, not heretics, but at least sedeva contests would be.

[Michael Knowles]

The Sedeva contests are the real ants now. I. Right. And some. Who knows? I mean, some of them. Maybe you could. You could, I guess in principle, accuse some of them of heresy. But the one, I guess you were gonna say SSPX. But they're just canonically irregular, Mr. Davies.

[Ben Shapiro]

Well, that is actually the abbreviation that we had for it. And that is correct. If we can scroll back till you see the name again. It was. Answer was C. The Society of St. Pius XSPX.

[Michael Knowles]

That's incorrect is the problem.

[Matt Fradd]

You lose a point.

[Michael Knowles]

You're wrong about that. But hold on.

[Ben Shapiro]

Can we pull up truthly real quick and double check this?

[Michael Knowles]

I don't know. I don't need truthly for that one. The thing is though, you tried to trick us with that first answer because the trick, of course, is that the Jesuits have never been formally condemned for their heresies. So that was out there. And no sspx. Whatever problems there are, they're canonically irregular, we say, and some accuse them of being systematic. But it's controversial. But it's the say days that you wanted to say, can we double check the Jews?

[Matt Fradd]

We don't need to upset the trads either.

[Michael Knowles]

You don't need to check it, Ben, I can assure you. Because trads.

[Ben Shapiro]

I threw out a couple of these because it was like that where it's like, oh, you know, it was just not officially condemned. This was like the one that it would said like it was heretical.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, you should delete that.

[Matt Fradd]

Whatever website you were on, you should use truthly.

[Michael Knowles]

You should use truthly right now. Go to halo.com knowles. I want to share something special with you as we move from Lent into Easter. You know how Lent was all about fasting and reflection. Well, Easter is our time to rejoice and remember that Christ died and rose for us. Hallow has put together this amazing Easter program with Sister Miriam James Hydlund, Father John Burns, and even Liz Tabish. You know, the actress who plays Mary Magdalene in the Chosen. Also Kevin James is part of it too. They're all exploring this beautiful spiritual book called Interior Freedom by Father Jacques Philippe. The program is designed to help you experience true freedom in your everyday life every day. You'll learn practical ways to let go of those external things that weigh you down and discover the peace that comes from trusting God more deeply. It is perfect for continuing those prayer habits you worked so hard to build during Lent. Just a few minutes each day for reflections, prayers, and meditations that really connect with the joy of Easter. Hallow is not just for Easter. We've got thousands of prayers, meditations, even music to help you build that daily prayer habit and grow closer to God. Download it. Today, we're offering three months totally free. Hallow.comKnowles for this exclusive offer.

[Ben Shapiro]

All right, number 12. Which Pope once declared heretics to be worse than Muslims? Was it A, Pope Innocent iii? B, Pope Urbain ii? C, Pope Gregory ix? D, Pope Benedict ix.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

I like how you've turned Urban ii, who's very based and declares the First Crusade into a kind of more posh. Nice version. When he's Pope Urbane, you know, that's like his.

[Ben Shapiro]

It rolls off the tongue.

[Michael Knowles]

It's like urban Urban in the day and then urbane at the cocktail party.

[Matt Fradd]

You know, you tell me when you're ready and we'll flip this bad boy around.

[Michael Knowles]

Kind of torn on two, but I don't know. I said B.

[Ben Shapiro]

The answer is C. Pope Gregory ix.

[Michael Knowles]

I said Gregory ix.

[Ben Shapiro]

What'd you have, Fred?

[Matt Fradd]

I had the same as him. I know I had a C. I had C. No, I had A. Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

What was that you said about the immorality of flying under all flying? Hold on. Sorry.

[Matt Fradd]

Only when it doesn't benefit me. I should have added that last one.

[Michael Knowles]

Was Gregory IX like, I'm wondering if Urban II was the first Crusade, obviously to go slay all the Saracens, but then was Gregory IX like the Cathar Crusade or something? When he was saying, actually, we've got enough heretics here that we need to crusade against or. I don't know. I don't remember.

[Matt Fradd]

I didn't even get the answer right, so I got nothing.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, okay. Darn. I was really leaning for a while that way. Okay, nevermind. Next one.

[Ben Shapiro]

I haven't been following you the entire time. Yeah, but I think we are still tied going down the home stretch.

[Michael Knowles]

Yikes.

[Ben Shapiro]

Ooh, Here we go. 13. Which heresy did the Catholic Church launch? The Albigensian. This is gonna kill me. For which heresy did the Catholic Church launch the Albigensian Crusade to suppress a Montanism.

[Matt Fradd]

Be the Albigensianism.

[Michael Knowles]

I think it was Albigensianism. I'm no scholar.

[Ben Shapiro]

A, Montanism, B, Donatism, C, Catharism, or D, Nestorianism.

[Michael Knowles]

So sorry, gentlemen.

[Matt Fradd]

I got it.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. Your emphasis, Mr. Benjamin, is quite interesting, but it would be, Catherine. It is Catharism C, also known as Albigensianism.

[Ben Shapiro]

Yeah, I had no idea. It's way easier when you put it that way. I had no idea those two words were connected. All right, 14. What was the heresy introduced by Gottfried Thomas that claimed Jesus gave up some divine attributes in his incarnate state? Did A, mortalism, B, kenosis, C, humanic Christianity, D, removism.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, Humanic Christianity sounds very 19th century, so I'm going with that.

[Ben Shapiro]

Y'all are both wrong. It's B, kenosis.

[Michael Knowles]

I thought that's what happens when you stop eating carbs. Isn't that. My body's in kenosis.

[Matt Fradd]

Doesn't kenosis mean knowledge?

[Ben Shapiro]

I can tell you.

[Matt Fradd]

And if it does, what does that have to do with. I wonder. Well, this is something for me to look up later. Thank you.

[Ben Shapiro]

You should look this all up on truthly.

[Michael Knowles]

Double check.

[Matt Fradd]

Yes.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Ben Shapiro]

All right. This is the final question, gentlemen.

[Michael Knowles]

Thanks.

[Matt Fradd]

Are we draw. Have we. Is this a draw?

[Michael Knowles]

So far, I think it's a draw.

[Ben Shapiro]

It is. Double check.

[Michael Knowles]

All right.

[Matt Fradd]

So is it possible for us to draw, or will you give us a bonus question so one of us can win?

[Ben Shapiro]

There will be a bonus question so someone can win.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay. All right.

[Ben Shapiro]

All right. Queen Mary I of England, known as Bloody Mary, launched a campaign to purge heresy from England after her false pregnancies, which she considered, quote, God's punishment for tolerating heretics. How many heretics were burned at the stake during her reign? This is an estimation.

[Michael Knowles]

Not enough.

[Ben Shapiro]

That's how many closest without going over.

[Matt Fradd]

Oh, come on.

[Ben Shapiro]

We have to end on one of these, too. Sorry, Matt. And you know, this is an estimation, but we'll just go with this number.

[Matt Fradd]

I'm waiting to see how much his pen moves before I know what I'm going to do. Oh, my gosh.

[Ben Shapiro]

These are all really.

[Matt Fradd]

He's really good at these guesses, you know?

[Ben Shapiro]

Yeah, he loves the close without going over thing.

[Matt Fradd]

All right, I'm just going to pick a ridiculous number, hoping that he went too high. All right.

[Ben Shapiro]

All right. Michael, what do you have? Was it ridiculous?

[Michael Knowles]

It wasn't ridiculous. It was reasonable. In modest.

[Matt Fradd]

What'd you put?

[Michael Knowles]

I said 90.

[Matt Fradd]

Oh, crap. I. Okay, I put a thousand.

[Michael Knowles]

Thousand.

[Ben Shapiro]

A thousand. The Massacre Mary. The correct answer is 280.

[Matt Fradd]

Let's.

[Michael Knowles]

Right at the finish line. Wow. Based on no knowledge that was just a guess based on how numbers work. Wow.

[Ben Shapiro]

Story of your life. Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Whoa.

[Ben Shapiro]

Well, Michael, soak it in for a moment. However, if you wish, since this is a gentleman's game, you can do.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, I don't. I don't at all wish to do a double or nothing. No, I just want to win.

[Ben Shapiro]

Risk it all. Double or nothing on a bonus question.

[Michael Knowles]

Thanks anyway.

[Matt Fradd]

Double or nothing.

[Michael Knowles]

I do have a story for you, though, about Queen Mary, which is. I looked this up one time. Cause my. On one side, I'm Italian and Catholic. Irish Catholic, too. But on one side, I'm super WASP in English and like the Mayflower cigar side. And so I was trying to figure out if there was a chance that I was a direct descendant of Sir Francis Knowles. Sir Francis Knowles, who was keeper of the privy purse, who was the imprisoner of Mary Queen of Scots, and who mocked St. Edmund Campion on the scaffold and demanded that he renounce the Pope. But instead of that, following this line of, like, really royal, well educated people, I think instead, the last Knowles I can trace was a mariner in New Hampshire and very likely illiterate.

[Matt Fradd]

You win some, you lose some.

[Michael Knowles]

Man. Oh, I won that. I won some.

[Ben Shapiro]

You did.

[Michael Knowles]

Let's go, baby. No, I gotta. Mr. Fradd, I have to admit, going into this, I was a little nervous because you have much more religious knowledge than I do. But what I didn't count on is all the random number questions. So, anyway, thank you, Ben. I appreciate that. And for your marvelous pronunciation of all.

[Ben Shapiro]

Of the heresies, Michael, to the victor goes the spoils. Even though, you know, it wasn't exactly a gentleman's way to do it or win it. So, Mr. Frat, would you please give us a 30 second commercial for the. Michael.

[Matt Fradd]

All right, set timer for 30 seconds.

[Michael Knowles]

Thank you.

[Matt Fradd]

Truthly, I mean, my goodness. I mean, Michael Knowles, I mean, he's not sure if if Ben Shapiro is a heretic or not. He hasn't made up his mind. He leans towards. No, he's a wonderful guy. He's got a great line of cigars and just. He's got hair.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, hold on. You got like, 20 more seconds.

[Ben Shapiro]

Is that.

[Michael Knowles]

He's all out.

[Matt Fradd]

He's got really just. He's got a couple of eyeballs and it's all held together with, like, a face, you know, and that's. There we go. That's time. That was the worst.

[Michael Knowles]

You wouldn't even get in there.

[Ben Shapiro]

That.

[Michael Knowles]

I would happily call Ben an infidel. I can't. That's terrible. All right, well, a plug is a plug.

[Ben Shapiro]

Wow. That was absolutely beautiful and heartfelt, Matt. And there you have it. And if you haven't already, please go subscribe to Pints of Aquinas on YouTube, grab a copy of how to Be Happy, St. Thomas's Secret to a Good Life, available wherever books are sold, and download the new Catholic AI app truthfully in the App Store. And please post in the comments who we should have next and what topic to cover in the next episode of Face Off.