Michael & The Ghost Hunter: "We Recorded The Ghost Screaming" | Kristina Costanza

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Michael Knowles Show

Episode: Michael & The Ghost Hunter: "We Recorded The Ghost Screaming" (Guest: Kristina Costanza)
Date: August 23, 2025

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Overview

In this deeply intriguing episode, Michael Knowles welcomes Kristina Costanza, a former ghost hunter turned Christian, to discuss her decade-long journey with the paranormal. Together, they dive into her first-hand experiences of ghost hunting, the allure and dangers of the occult, and her eventual Christian conversion. The conversation explores skepticism, spiritual reality, the use of witchcraft, and broader cultural implications of fascination with the supernatural.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Kristina's Introduction to the Paranormal

• First Experiences
  • Grew up in a Catholic family, always curious but also scared of the spiritual realm.
  • First encountered a disembodied voice at 14 ([02:14]).
  • “When I was 14 years old, I heard my first disembodied voice … every hair on my body stood up.” — Kristina Costanza ([02:27])
• Early Confusion of Faith & Curiosity
  • Began dabbling in tarot and spells at 16, influenced by proximity to Salem, MA and psychic culture ([04:39]).
  • “I thought I could mix the two [Christianity and spiritualism].” — Kristina ([04:22])

2. Ghost Hunting as a Profession

• Getting Started

  • Joined a team after witnessing an EVP (Electronic Voice Phenomenon) recording ([07:05]).
  • “If you hear in the recording, we just carry on with our conversation … it was horrifying.” — Kristina ([09:12])

• Scientific and Occult Blend

  • Describes use of equipment like EMF readers alongside spells and rituals ([12:41]).
  • Admitted to deliberately bringing "witchcraft" and a "feminine touch" into the field ([12:59], [13:08]).

• Paranormal Evidence

  • Shares about capturing a dramatic EVP with the sound of a patient-nurse struggle at Rolling Hills Asylum ([09:09]).
  • Most EVPs are only heard during playback, but sometimes corroborated by personal sensory experience ([10:00]).

3. Spiritual Dangers and Personal Decline

• Gradual Escalation

  • What began as curiosity led to deeper involvement with the occult and New Age beliefs ([13:08]-[13:37]), mixed with depression and substance abuse.
  • “I was hurting … I had this big God-shaped hole in my heart; I was trying to fill that with witchcraft, drinking, drugs, alcohol, ghost hunting...” — Kristina ([14:08])

• Encountering Darkness

  • Experiences escalated to seeing terrifying “tar beings” and feeling spiritual oppression ([16:16], [36:19]).
  • “It changed and multiplied into these eight to ten-foot tar beings ... grinning at me and taunting me.” — Kristina ([16:16], [36:19])

• Channeling and Possession

  • Practiced pendulum sessions, invited spirits to “use her body,” and at times lost control over her own speech and motor skills ([33:04]-[33:45]).

4. Skepticism, Faith, and Theological Debate

• Ghosts vs. Demons

  • Michael challenges Kristina on biblical accounts of ghosts (Samuel, Moses, Elijah), leading to discussion of familiar spirits and biblical prohibitions on necromancy ([17:20]-[19:38]).
  • “From what the Lord has led me to believe ... these are familiar spirits that ... are demons masquerading as beings of light.” — Kristina ([16:49])

• Necromancy and Forbidden Knowledge

  • Both agree that even biblical instances involving the dead are warnings, not endorsements, of such practices ([18:05]-[20:05]).

5. Paranormal Pop Culture and the Occult

• Annabelle & Ed and Lorraine Warren
  • Discusses famed haunted doll; explains how giving power to occult objects empowers demonic entities ([21:07]-[23:43]).
  • “It’s not the objects themselves that are haunted. It’s the demons in operation behind it.” — Kristina ([23:16])

6. Exit from the Occult and Conversion

• The Breaking Point

  • Increasing spiritual torment, oppression, and failed attempts at self-salvation (law of attraction, crystals, rituals) led Kristina to despair ([41:48]-[44:44]).

• Conversion to Christianity

  • COVID lockdown anxiety and the failure of New Age self-help led her to reconsider faith. Her conversion brought immediate relief; she threw away all occult paraphernalia ([56:23]-[59:52]).
  • “It was all that burden; it lifted off of me, and he just brought me to such freedom. … I threw it all away.” — Kristina ([58:53])

7. Reflection on Self-Help and Modern Spirituality

• Critique of Self-Help Culture

  • Calls out treadmill of modern self-help as spiritually bankrupt compared to surrendering to God's grace ([72:13]-[73:46]).
  • “My help comes from the Lord. My strength comes from the Lord. And the best self help book — Bible.” — Kristina ([72:48])

• Cultural Trends

  • Notes that modern obsessions with self-empowerment, liberation ideologies, or raising vibrations all share a misguided sense of ‘saving the world’ ([70:46]).

8. Warnings and Final Thoughts

• Spiritual Dangers

  • Warns listeners against curiosity in the occult, ghost-hunting, and use of spiritualist paraphernalia ([99:25]-[100:46]).
  • “Curiosity opens a door … I was curious and that curiosity … led me down this destructive path ... demonized and in bondage and in chains.” — Kristina ([99:53])

• Message to Seekers

  • Encourages discernment and turning away from darkness; maintain spiritual health through Christ ([100:46]).
  • “Take no part in the evil deeds of darkness ... get rid of them and repent and turn to Jesus.” — Kristina ([100:46])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Faux-Thrill of Ghost Hunting:
  “When you don’t understand the spiritual ramifications … it’s just fun. There could be a multitude of reasons — thrill, skepticism, curiosity …” — Kristina ([11:53])

• On her mindset in the occult:
  “I was kind of a spiritual cafeteria: a little bit of this, a little bit of that.” — Kristina ([13:08])

• On the Law of Attraction:
  “It was exhausting … you gotta do, do, do, do, do all these work, … all that load, that weight, that burden — the moment I started following Jesus, it [lifted].” — Kristina ([43:30])

• Michael on modern spirituality:
  “All the really fancy modern libs … call us nuts … but we ain’t praying to Bigfoot.” — Michael ([50:40])

• On the Lure of the Occult:
  “People want to believe in something outside the natural … It’s just dark, it’s cool, it’s different … but you’re just taking part in something that’s being normalized.” — Kristina ([26:53])

• On Relics vs. Occult Objects:
  “There is a sense there’s a connection to the physical world as temples of the Holy Spirit … If there are two kinds of relics you can buy … why would you buy the demonic one?” — Michael ([25:59])

• On coming out of spiritual bondage:
  “He just brought me to such freedom.” — Kristina ([59:17])

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Important Timestamps

• Kristina's First Ghostly Experiences:
  [02:14]-[04:39]
• Joining a Ghost Hunting Team:
  [07:05]-[09:58]
• Discussion on the Rolling Hills Asylum EVP:
  [09:09]-[10:19]
• Witchcraft and Feminine Touch in Ghost Hunting:
  [12:41]-[13:37]
• On Channeling & Possession:
  [33:04]-[34:55]
• Transformation into Dark Spiritual Oppression:
  [36:19]-[37:06]
• Biblical Ghosts & Debates:
  [17:20]-[20:05]
• Annabelle & Occult Objects:
  [21:07]-[26:53]
• Spiritual Crisis and Conversion:
  [56:23]-[59:52]
• Reflections on Self Help & Christian Living:
  [72:13]-[75:13]
• Final Warnings to Listeners:
  [99:25]-[100:46]

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Tone

The episode is candid, searching, and reflective — at times lighthearted and self-deprecating, at others deeply earnest and warning. Michael Knowles brings a wry skepticism, while Kristina is open, articulate, and vulnerable about her journey from curiosity and despair to faith.

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Conclusion

This episode offers both a harrowing and hopeful account of one woman’s journey from the heart of ghost-hunting and the occult to Christian faith. It serves as a cautionary reflection for those intrigued by the supernatural and a testament to the power of spiritual conversion. Listeners leave with a reinforced understanding of both the spiritual dangers of necromancy, witchcraft, and curiosity, and the peace found in returning to faith.

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Find Kristina Costanza:

• [Instagram: @kristinacostanza]
• Upcoming: YouTube (search "Kristina Costanza")

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Michael]

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[Christina Costanza]

I was at an asylum in upstate New York. I would tell these spirits, you can use my body, talk through me. And they would. My team captured a crazy class A adp.

[Michael]

I come at these things with a healthy dose of skepticism. It doesn't seem that bad.

[Christina Costanza]

The longer I stayed in the darker experiences I had it changed and multiplied into these eight to ten foot tar beings. They'd be grinning at me and taunting me, kind of like, I got you.

[Michael]

Did you ever think, you know, maybe I should get out of this?

[Christina Costanza]

It just kept getting worse and worse right up until I got saved.

[Michael]

Have you ever seen a ghost? It's amazing how many people you talk to. You go into a room of 20 people. Multiple people will say they have seen a ghost at some point. Everyone pretends like they don't believe in ghosts, but then a lot of people will tell you they've seen one. My guest today has hunted them. That would be Christina Costanza. Christina, thank you for coming on the show.

[Christina Costanza]

Thank you for having me on.

[Michael]

You're a former ghost hunter.

[Christina Costanza]

Yes, I am.

[Michael]

How do you get into that line of work?

[Christina Costanza]

Oh, boy, that's a loaded question. Well, you don't get into it without being curious to begin with. But it kind of just found me. I grew up being very afraid of the spiritual realm, being very aware of it, but not ever wanting to make contact with anything or not even really realizing you could outside of your everyday psychic, I guess. And I grew up going to church. I was raised Catholic. And it wasn't ever something that was kind of in terms of going to psychics, it wasn't ever. I wasn't told that they were bad or anything, but I was very curious. And when I was 14 years old, I heard my first disembodied voice. I was in my grandmother's attic, and I heard this voice just whisper in my ear. And every hair in my body stood up. I stood straight up. And I was very afraid, Very afraid. I didn't want anything to do with it. But there was this little spark of curiosity that lit up within, inside me. And I'm like, do I have this gift? I was told by other psychics that I have this gift, this ability. And I'm like, okay, let me just shelf that for a little while, move on with my teenage life. And a few years Later, I was 16 years old, and I heard another voice in my bedroom this time, and it was whispering, yes, just over and over into my ear. And I had a deck of tarot cards that I had just purchased from a local bookstore. And I decided to try to make contact and just kind of make up my own spells and stuff like that, and to really no avail. But that was really when the curiosity started peaking in me.

[Michael]

Okay, hold on. I got to rewind. So you say you're a kid, and you say you were aware of the spiritual world, but you didn't want to communicate with it. But you were raised Catholic, so you were. At the very least, you're praying to God.

[Christina Costanza]

Yes.

[Michael]

You're availing yourself of the sacraments. You're participating in some way in the spiritual world.

[Christina Costanza]

Yes. I loved going to church. I loved God. I had this reverence for him. I believed in heaven and just the. I loved the holiness of church and God and everything like that.

[Michael]

But you're also going to psychics.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah. What?

[Michael]

Why are you doing that?

[Christina Costanza]

Does not compute. Does not mix. Because I didn't know. I didn't know my Bible. I wasn't reading the Word. I didn't know that God had told me to stay away from that stuff very clearly, very obviously. But I thought I could mix the two.

[Michael]

So how do you decide to go to a psychic? You're just walking down the street in the strip mall. You see the get your fortune told sign?

[Christina Costanza]

Well, I grew up right outside of Boston and Quincy, Massachusetts, which is very close to Salem, Massachusetts, Very famous for the witch trials. It is the witch city now. A lot of psychics, a lot of ghost tours, all these things. And I'd go up and visit, you know, once a summer, just for a day or something, and stop into the local psychic and get my future read.

[Michael]

So, okay, there they say, we're gonna read your future, but it's not necromancy. It's not. Hey, we're gonna contact Great Grandma Salad.

[Christina Costanza]

No, I wasn't anything part of seance y type stuff. Maybe at a sleepover trying to do those types of things, but nothing formally or professionally really, until I was about, like, 21 years old.

[Michael]

Okay, so you're raised Catholic. It doesn't stick. You fall away from the faith. You're talking to psychics. You hear disembodied voices. Do you immediately recognize the disembodied voices as a spiritual reality? Or do you think, oh, maybe I just heard something go bump in the night. Maybe this is just my imagination.

[Christina Costanza]

Well, I never thought that because I was told by psychics that I had the ability other people in my life. My dad was sensitive, he was spiritual. He was a born again Christian, but he also believed in that stuff as well. We knew there was life beyond this physical realm. So to me, it made me feel special that these voices, these what I thought were people, would try to find me and communicate with me. And I didn't know why, but all I knew is I wanted to find out more. Just kind of led me down that breadcrumb trail until I really started professionally doing it for a living.

[Michael]

So then who do you think is saying, shh? And yes. Do you think it's a ghost? Do you think it's a demon? Do you think it's a good spirit at that? What do you think of it?

[Christina Costanza]

At that time, I thought it was a ghost, which would have been, in my interpretation back then, the voice of a person who was formerly living.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Christina Costanza]

As opposed to a demon or an entity or a spiritual being.

[Michael]

Okay, yeah. So you've now heard the second voice. You're feeling very special.

[Christina Costanza]

Yes.

[Michael]

You have this special gift because the local psychic told you. So then what?

[Christina Costanza]

Then I just kind of lived my life. I'm doing. I'm pursuing photography and acting and all these different things. And I had met a former teammate of mine at a nail salon, and she was showing the nail tech and evp, which is an electronic voice phenomenon, which is basically when you take a digital recorder or it could be, you know, cassette at that point as well, you ask questions, and when you play it back in between the questions, you can actually capture voices, answers, and different things. And so she was showing the nail tech evidence that she had captured on a former ghost hunt. And I was like, wow, that is crazy. And at that time, I was trying to build a photography business. I'm like, here, if you have any photos, let me know. And that's how it all happened.

[Michael]

So is it real? We have some simulacrum of one of these devices, I guess here. Is that real or is it kind of like the pictures of Bigfoot? You say it's grainy, I think. Did he say, go drink a Yoo Hoo? Or was it. Hold on, is that just a scratch on the tape?

[Christina Costanza]

Well, there's different classes of EVPs, so there's class A, B, C. It depends on the clarity, if you can really hear it, what, how long it is and whatnot, what exactly the content is. But a lot of that stuff I think is real because I've witnessed it personally. Being in a big event where nobody is talking. You're in an abandoned building in the middle of nowhere and you're capturing what seems to be disembodied voices having conversations or yelling and screaming and smacking in old asylums. It's. Yeah, I wish it was made up. I think maybe some of the evidence that you hear out there could be. But what I personally witnessed was 1000%.

[Michael]

Because you were recording it.

[Christina Costanza]

Because I was recording it, yeah.

[Michael]

So it wouldn't be some planted hoax thing, that you were in charge of it.

[Christina Costanza]

Correct.

[Michael]

What are the conversations about?

[Christina Costanza]

So basically, when you're at a location, you're asking, who are you? Why are you here? What's your name? Is there anything you'd like to say? Are you in pain? Just maybe. What's your favorite color? Are you happy that we're here talking to you? Just kind of getting playful with questions, maybe being creative, just asking your standard run of the mill questions. I guess you would ask a ghost at that time. And the craziest one I ever caught was at an asylum in upstate New York.

[Michael]

Where was it?

[Christina Costanza]

Rolling Hills Asylum. Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah, I think I know that asylum.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, been there many times.

[Michael]

I grew up in upstate, a little north of the city, so I think I remember.

[Christina Costanza]

Yep, yep. And I've been there many times. And the first time I was there, I captured. Me and my team captured a crazy class A EVP with what sounds like a patient, nurse, struggle, like a shrieking scream. And you hear like a smack, almost as if the nurse smacked the patient. And you hear like, don't you ever do that? It was. And this. I'm not going to be super loud right now, but it was. I actually listened to it and it was horrifying chills. You can't make it up because then if you hear in the recording, we just carry on with our conversation. No one is making this up. You have sound guys next to you. You have people record. So it's. Sometimes if there's a lot of people there, it's hard to fake the evidence.

[Michael]

Can you hear it in the room, or you only hear it on the playback?

[Christina Costanza]

Only on the playback. That's the thing. You don't hear it sometimes. Certain people, like myself, I could hear certain things with my own ears, and then I would also hear it on the playback. So it confirmed what I was hearing. Or different pieces of equipment would confirm what my own body, my eyes, my ears were seeing and feeling.

[Michael]

I believe that a lot of this stuff is real. I also come at these things with a healthy dose of skepticism, Having been to. I think it was that asylum, but I definitely remember a shutdown asylum in upstate New York. You can feel a kind of spiritual oppression around this place. It is dark.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah. Yeah, it is. A lot of. Especially that one. There's been so much darkness that's happened there. You know, it was a poor house back in the 1800s where people would just send menopausal women or disabled children. Just a lot of dark, dark things happened. And they would have. You know, upstate New York, it's very cold in the winter. They couldn't bury the bodies, so they would have to stack them up in the morgue. And I would put myself in that meat locker and try to do these ghost sessions, trying to communicate, trying to capture evidence. And being down in these basements, you just. You can feel the heaviness and the darkness in some of these places.

[Michael]

Why would you want to do this? I mean, assuming. If you think it's real. I think that this stuff is real. In principle, though, there can be plenty of hoaxes, but if you think it's real. We've talked on this show before about the demonic and the angelic and the, you know, all of these sorts of things. But if you think it's real, to me, it's kind of like cockroaches. I think cockroaches are real. I think we need to fight cockroaches so they don't take over our house. But I don't want to be around cockroaches. I don't want to put myself in the cockroach headquarters. What would draw you to pursue this?

[Christina Costanza]

I agree. Now, like, looking back, like, why? What would ever possess me to do this? But when you don't understand the spiritual ramifications of seeking after these things, it's just fun. There could be a multitude of reasons. Some people are in it just for the thrill of It. Some people are actually skeptical. I know atheists and skeptics that didn't believe in it, that they were doing this to seek and they wanted to have their minds change. There was people like myself that were curious. You want to be able to make contact. And at the time that I was in it, it was a lot of scientific equipment involved. People were using electromagnetic field readers, thermal imaging cameras. And I myself wanted to bring spirituality back to it, back in my days, wanting to add the feminine touch to it. And I added.

[Michael]

What do you mean the feminine.

[Christina Costanza]

The feminine touch kind of. Let's not be. So this is my mindset back.

[Michael]

Be nice to the ghosts.

[Christina Costanza]

You mean kind of more the spiritual. Yeah, be nice to the ghosts. But it was a very male dominated field at the time and wanting to bring some softness in witchcraft. I'm just gonna say it. I wanna bring witchcraft.

[Michael]

Okay, okay.

[Christina Costanza]

Into the industry. Yeah. Do these spells and rituals to try to kick up the energy.

[Michael]

So hold on. Were you a witch?

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, you name it, I was. I was kind of a spiritual cafeteria. Spiritualists, as they would say, a little bit of this, a little bit of that. I was very much into the new age, the law of attraction. Crystals, candles, tarot cards.

[Michael]

So you were a millennial white woman. Yes.

[Christina Costanza]

Okay, got it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I was vegan at one point. Yep. All this stuff. You get it? Yeah.

[Michael]

So you were dabbling in all of this. But did you. Were you conscious of it? Would you say I'm a little witchy? You know?

[Christina Costanza]

Oh, I wore it like a badge of honor, you know, I was, I was the ghost girl. Even though people that I grew up with would be like, you're what? Like you. You were afraid of everything and. But it just so quickly became my identity. I was. That was who I was. I was the ghost girl. And I was witchy. I was. I wore all these labels, you know, liberal, witchy, vegan, all these different things.

[Michael]

Tomato, tomato.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, right. And I. Because I was seeking. I was hurting and I was seeking for.

[Michael]

Why were you hurting?

[Christina Costanza]

I was hurting. I mean, I was just struggling with depression, I was struggling with anxiety. I wasn't walking with the Lord. So I had this big God shaped hole in my heart. So I was trying to fill that with witchcraft, with drinking, drugs, alcohol, ghost hunting, all of the things that kind of satisfy the flesh for time being. But the next morning you just wake up and you're just as empty, if not emptier than before.

[Michael]

You know, I was going to joke and say back in my wayward Youth. I was atheist. Bit more libertarian. So, yeah, the drinking, the partying, the girls, this, staying up late. I did that. Ghost hunting was not on the list. Except that's actually not fair, because when I was a teenager, my mother died unexpectedly. And I did have a strong impulse to say, hey, I was an atheist. But I said, can I. Is it possible? Can you talk to the dead? Is it possible to talk to. I didn't pursue it that much, but I did Google it. I remember. So even that. Okay, I get it. When you're in a. When you're lost and you're confused and you're longing for something, I actually do see how you could end up to that place. But then the story you mentioned, you say you heard this conversation between a patient and a nurse, and a smack and a. This. So ostensibly, that was a real event that took place that you were hearing the echo of.

[Christina Costanza]

Possibly.

[Michael]

So what was it? What do you now think?

[Christina Costanza]

That was what I now believe from just being on my own spiritual journey. And what I've read in the Bible is that these are familiar spirits that the Lord talks about. They are demons masquerading as beings of light, just like how Second Corinthians talks about. Satan himself comes as a being of light, and so do his minions. And these spirits are watching. They're understanding what you're seeking, what you're curious about. And they. I personally believe they were pretending they're putting on a show to draw you in. Kind of like a mosquito light, you know, where you think you're heading, towards something that's bright and beautiful. It seems real. It seems good. And the closer you get, you don't realize it's leading you to death, that these beings are gonna do anything they can to get you as far away from the Lord as possible. So I personally. That's why they do come, as people, you know, of scenarios of, you know, depending on the location you're at. Like, oh, there was a cowboy that lived here, and, oh, I saw the cowboy. He's gonna come here. I think they're very clever, and they're really maniacal, and they're gonna do anything they can to keep you coming back.

[Michael]

So you're saying 100% confident it's demons.

[Christina Costanza]

Yes.

[Michael]

Is it a possibility that it's a ghost?

[Christina Costanza]

I know that's a question. I personally. From what I have, from what the Lord has led me to believe, from what I've read in the Bible, I don't personally believe that we can come back because it says that man is Destined to die once and immediately face judgment. I don't see anywhere that says we can come back and talk to our loved ones. And hey, my necklace is in the drawer over here. Communicate in that sense.

[Michael]

But there are ghosts in the Bible.

[Christina Costanza]

There are ghosts in the Bible. Yeah.

[Michael]

So there's the ghost of the witch of Endor. The ghost of Samuel comes up, and the witch kind of actually seems surprised that she conjured the ghost. She probably was a fraudster before that. But you see the ghost of Samuel, you see in the transfiguration, the ghosts of Moses and Elijah. Those are ghosts. They're not demons. Those are their spirits.

[Christina Costanza]

Right. Well, with the witch of Endor, what I find fascinating is I don't know if she meant to do that. I don't know if she's ever done that before.

[Michael]

Right, right, I agree.

[Christina Costanza]

And what I love about this topic is that even just scholar, biblical scholars, there's no one consensus on the witch of Endor of what actually happened. Because I'm between two schools of thought where. All right, the Bible says that Samue came up. Okay, so it says it's Samuel. Doesn't say it's a familiar spirit.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Christina Costanza]

So I'm like, okay, maybe God allowed this to happen. But I'm like, why would God allow to use something so sinful to do this? Because I'm like, okay, maybe it was a familiar spirit. There's a lot of debate on this topic. All I know is, no matter what happened, it wasn't good. It led to Saul's death. And it also. We're not called to do necromancy. The whole thing was outside of God's.

[Michael]

No, no, of course. I totally agree with this. And we shouldn't do necromancy or pursuit.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, all that stuff.

[Michael]

But this is an important question for the ghost hunting phenomenon because, okay, put the witch of Endor aside. Christ is transfigured and he's flanked by two guys, Moses and Elijah. It's not them physically. They're not flesh and bone. It's their spirit. Ghost just means spirit. You wouldn't say those are familiar spirits. You wouldn't say those are demons. So at least in one example, and let's say two examples in the Bible, ghosts do appear. So you could say, well, I just. I don't think that really happens today. I don't think the things I was doing. But for the people who are curious about this stuff, I mean, this was really a big plot point in Hamlet, in the first scene of Hamlet, is. Is it really the father of Hamlet who comes back as a ghost or is it a demon or. You know, that's a big debate. And actually it hinges on religious debates at the time because of the University of Wittenberg where Hamlet comes from. Is it if a demon's coming to trick you or granny is coming to warn you of something. Both could be spiritually dangerous, but they are different.

[Christina Costanza]

Right.

[Michael]

And you're the expert ghost hunter, so you go in assuming it's always a demon.

[Christina Costanza]

Well, I don't do it anymore. And you don't do it.

[Michael]

You did.

[Christina Costanza]

Praise God. But I would say, like, I still personally don't believe that would be Granny. Like, what is she saying they should be. And we also see in the story of the rich man in Lazarus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's not able to come back. There's a big, giant chasm. He's like, please go warn my family.

[Michael]

Says you had the prophets.

[Christina Costanza]

Exactly. You're not allowed to. And to me, that also says we can't come back. We have our chance now, and we're not able to cross that great divide. And the only one who did that was Jesus. But for me personally, no matter what what it is we're called not to talk to them and communicate with them. Yeah.

[Michael]

So we do it anyway.

[Christina Costanza]

You did it anyway.

[Michael]

A lot of people do.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah. Well, I thought it was okay. I didn't know that God said not to do that. He didn't know. I didn't know that. He said to stay away from necromancy and divination and witchcraft and all the things that I was partaking in. I thought at one point I called myself a Christian witch. I thought I could have both. Yeah. Tell me you haven't read the Bible without telling me you haven't read the Bible.

[Michael]

You're talking about demonology. Have you heard of the Annabelle doll? I don't know anything about this. I just know it somehow pertains to. It's like a demon possessed doll or what is it?

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah. So it's actually been. It was made famous to the big world through the conjuring movies, but it's actually a rag doll that was in possession by Ed and Lorraine Warren. They're very famous. Famous for their demonology.

[Michael]

Not famous enough. I never heard of them. So what do they do? They're into demons.

[Christina Costanza]

I think they actually worked on the Amityville horror case and the actual Annabelle conjuring case.

[Michael]

But they're pro demon or anti demon?

[Christina Costanza]

Pro demon. They're exorcists in type sense. But I actually met Lorraine Warren a few times.

[Michael]

So they're anti demon, meaning they want to get the demon out.

[Christina Costanza]

Okay. Yeah, I guess I.

[Michael]

Okay, yeah. Okay.

[Christina Costanza]

All right.

[Michael]

That makes sense. I was confused here.

[Christina Costanza]

They believe they exist, but they don't like them. They try to.

[Michael]

Oh, okay.

[Christina Costanza]

That's great. They're passed on right now. But they had an occult museum in Connecticut filled with relics and very dark occult items. You know, literally things that have been found in the woods with satanic rituals. And I have been to the museum a couple times. I met Lorraine a few times as well and saw Annabelle as well. And the folklore behind this doll is that it's possessed by. I don't remember exactly. I think a little girl who's demonic or just filled with demons or rage. I don't remember exactly. But this rag doll has tried to kill people, allegedly, and has escaped.

[Michael]

Like, Chucky. Like, it springs to life with a knife?

[Christina Costanza]

I think so, yeah. I don't know.

[Michael]

That didn't happen.

[Christina Costanza]

Someone was watching it, and they woke up and the arms were around their neck. And so this thing has to be kept in a lockbox. And the folklore behind this doll is just insane. And the power that people are giving this doll, really the demon in operation behind this doll. And it just made headlines again because a comedian, Matt Rife, I've never watched his things, but I guess he just purchased the entire occult museum in Connecticut filled with these objects, including Annabelle doll. And it's not the objects themselves that are haunted. It's the demons that are in operation behind it. So when people are looking at Annabelle and giving her power, like I did when I met her that night, I literally said, like, I tried to test her. I'm like, well, she's not that scary. And my gas tank literally went from, like, full to, like, empty on the way home.

[Michael]

Yeah, hold on. Even the way you're taught. I met her.

[Christina Costanza]

I know.

[Michael]

That's the brag. Hold on. What are you talk. So do you buy it? Do you think this doll was choking someone?

[Christina Costanza]

It could have been. You think so? I don't mean to say, like, I met her. It's like, I think that's the old way I would speak. But I met the doll and the demon that's in with this rag.

[Michael]

And your gas tank dropped into the.

[Christina Costanza]

Out of nowhere. It was very strange. Like, it was not like, oh, almost on E. Oh, I lost gas. It's not a crazy story. It was literally, like, out of nowhere, strange stuff started happening. Got lost. GPS, this is back in, I want to say, 2011. So GPS really wasn't what it used to be. It was like those ones that you attached. So it was leading us out of nowhere, in the middle of nowhere in the woods, and had to find a police station to help us. It was crazy after going to the museum, but this comedian just purchased all of these items and actually broke my heart knowing that just the lore and excitement behind this doll. Right now, he's in for a lot of bondage, and he's coming to agreement with a lot of these things, because when you give power.

[Michael]

Wait, so he's into the New agey stuff? I guess.

[Christina Costanza]

Apparently. I mean, I feel like you wouldn't make that big of a purchase without having some kind of.

[Michael]

No, I barely buy a new oxford shirt. I'm such a cheapskate. And I don't think I'd buy a demon warehouse if I weren't into it.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, right. And he's hoping to open it up for tours and overnight stays and stuff like that. And it just breaks my heart because now that's just. People are so into this, and they're gonna come into agreement with all these beings and open themselves up for demonization. And I just.

[Michael]

You know what's so strange about this, too? There's a Christian tradition of relic veneration that goes back to. I mean, it's in the Bible. It's in the Book of Acts with the handkerchiefs and St. Paul, but it even. Or in second Maccabees, though some people don't include that in the canon. But from the earliest moments, from the apostolic age, you know, Polycarp dies. Polycarp is buddies with St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew John the Evangelist. Polycarp himself might have known John the Evangelist. And when he dies, we have immediate accounts that the Christians would venerate his bones. His bones. And this goes all throughout the Christian tradition of. Sometimes they'd get a little unsure of the relics. So I think there are presently two heads of St. Thomas Aquinas, who was a very smart guy, but he didn't have to. He didn't have to. And so there is a sense you don't want to worship them like an idol, but there is a sense that there's a connection to the physical world as temples of the Holy Spirit. And so they kind of point you toward the God who these holy men worshiped.

[Christina Costanza]

And.

[Michael]

And so there are plenty of relics. A lot of them have left churches. In the modern age, you think you could buy a warehouse. Well, you actually can't buy relics, but you're not Supposed to buy relics, but you could come to a reliquary of holy men. Why would you buy the demonic one if there are two kinds of relics you can buy? And you say, hey, here's a really good one and here's a really bad one. Why do you say, I want the. I want the bad one with the rag doll that's gonna strangle me in my sleep?

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah. Well, because it's cool, because people are really into the horror and all this stuff. People don't think that stuff is real. They might just think, like, oh, this is just awesome. It's really just like. It's dark, it's cool. It's just different, you know, it's kind of like all those horror conventions I used to go to. It's just. You think you're different, but you're not.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Christina Costanza]

It's part of the. Kind of the. All the same. And it's. Oh, it's outside of the normal stuff. But not realizing you're just taking part in something that's being normalized. Everyone thinks it's cool now. Everyone has a ghost story. Everyone likes to go on these tours. And we're spiritual beings, and so we're going to have our curiosity picked. And people want to believe in something outside of the natural. And I'm sure it's a great investment, too, wanting to turn it into something that people can come and you own something. It's a very popular doll made famous by horror movies now. And unfortunately, there's so much ramifications that are going to come with that.

[Michael]

Yeah, I don't know. I'd probably just buy an index fund. You know, I get that the ROI might be marginally higher on the demon Doll museum, but I don't know, man. I don't like esg, but, like, Vanguard and State street are probably safer investments, even with all their problems. I don't know.

[Christina Costanza]

I know nothing. Yeah, I 100% agree. And I just. I actually tried to make a video recently, and social media would not let me upload it for some reason. Trying to talk to Matt Rife saying, please, anybody that has these objects, please burn them, get rid of them, and turn to Jesus. I'm just, like, urging him. I just. I hope he would just wake up and understand that the spiritual weight of this is not gonna be something that anybody can carry. And I hope he just repents and turns to Jesus.

[Michael]

So you're a Christian witch. You're now doing film work on ghosts.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

And you're getting this footage that you say maybe Some of them are more dubious. But you say, look, the class A top tier audio recordings, I am hearing ghosts. So what are you doing with that knowledge? Why is that spiritually dangerous?

[Christina Costanza]

Why is that spiritually dangerous? Now looking back, it's because one God calls us to stay away from it. And when you're operating in divination or witchcraft, you're seeking knowledge or power outside of God's knowledge and power. You're in a spirit of rebellion, you're rebelling against God's word. I have to believe that God tells me to stay away from something for a good reason, that he has a good will for me and he has a good design for everything. And then when I step outside of that, it leads to death. It does, it really does lead to spiritual death. It leads to bondage, it leads to chains, it leads to just demonic oppression. And what I do with that knowledge now is right now I want to just share my story. But back then I really wanted to kind of show the world that there is a light, there is life beyond the physical realm. There's something else out there. Maybe we don't know what it is, but let's. Maybe there's something that can bring us together or open us up spiritually. I just kind of wanted this enlightenment and healing above all else as well.

[Michael]

Yeah, this to me is the good that can come out of the bad thing. Or you know, to use the example of the witch of Endor, you know, this very bad thing that happens. But God turns all things to good is even. It's not a recommendation of practicing necromancy. But there are people who are hardcore atheist materialists who say none of this is real. And then they're convinced not that God exists, but that a demon exists. Or alternately that a ghost exists. But if ghosts exist, that means that something non physical exists. And if demons exist, that probably means that God exists too. And there's this kind of bizarre back door where people are interested in the occult and the paranormal and often it leads them to perdition, but sometimes it can lead them back to the right path. So you say this is terrible and you had all this demonic oppression and everything, but. But how? So you're at the insane asylum, you're getting the audio recordings, it's quirky, it's weird, it's interesting. You feel very special. You feel you have this gift, this feminine witchy touch to mollify the demons and okay, then what? How does it go south? It doesn't seem that bad at that moment.

[Christina Costanza]

It doesn't seem that Bad. I just want to say about that atheist kind of opening their mind. That was my husband. He was a full blown atheist. Nothing happens in the spiritual realm. Meeting me and having me, like, witness what I went through, he's like, well, she's not lying. She's not a liar. It kind of opened himself up to the spiritual world as well. And now we're both saved. Hallelujah. But how does that. What was I struggling with?

[Michael]

Yeah. So, okay, we get to the point where you're recording these, you know, smacks and screams in the insane asylum. But at that point, I don't know if it just remained at that point. Is that. Is there really any impetus for you to give it up?

[Christina Costanza]

Right. Definitely. Because the longer I stayed in, the longer I was involved with these things, the darker experiences I had. So it was really fun in the beginning. And I was doing this for over a decade.

[Michael]

Cool.

[Christina Costanza]

It was really fun in the beginning. Just kind of, wow, I can't believe I'm capturing this evidence. I'm making contact. I can't believe I'm growing in my psychic abilities. I'm able to travel the country, see different places. This is amazing. And make friends and wow. I'm on a TV show. Wow, this is crazy. But it slowly got more dark and dark and dark. And because I was opening myself up in different ways with these investigations where I would do different spells and rituals to open up the investigation. I would light candles. I would do what we call a pendulum session. So in witchcraft, there's these. It's kind of like a ball and chain type thing. It's a pendulum on the bottom of a chain and kind of like a Ouija board mat with letters and numbers and yes or no on there. And you would ask questions like, all right, we're here. Please talk to me. Are you ready to talk with us? And it would literally point to different things. And I wouldn't. There's no way I could really manipulate it without it really shaking. And this thing would point to yes, point to no, spell out names, and we would start investigations.

[Michael]

This is. It's not just that, you know, your hand shook or something. You're saying you're seeing the ball on the chain, defy gravity.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah. It would stay tight and then it would just go like that. Yeah. These things that. It's like, literally in my hand. I know I'm being stable, and it's operating outside of my own control. And I would tell these spirits, these beings, I would say, okay, you can use my body. You can use my Energy, talk through me. Use whatever you need to pull from me to manifest yourself. Looking back, that's literally insane and so dangerous. But I was literally inviting these things into my life, my spirit, my soul, just to. I was coming into agreement with it all, and I was asking them to manifest themselves. And they would.

[Michael]

So you'd start, or it would sound like you were speaking.

[Christina Costanza]

Sometimes they would speak through me. That happened once. I would chant. I channeled somebody. I don't know who. I don't really remember. It's a little. It was about 13 years ago at this point, and I try to forget some of these things, but I remember speaking through and I didn't have control over my voice. And I remember looking at the people that I was with and I'm like. I was just saying things and I don't know what I was saying. And they were. They had to, like, get me out of the house to snap me out of it because my body started to lock up. I started to not be able to, like, feel things. It was. It was weird. I was kind of in my body, but I wasn't. I didn't have control over my motor skills or what I was speaking or seeing. It was really horrifying and very scary. And the worst experience, I think, was when I was filming for my show. I ended up through my paranormal journey. I became a co host for my own paranormal show, helping people overcome great fear with their crazy demonic activity that they have in their homes. We were in a house down in Georgia which was experiencing a lot of dark activity. The guy was involved in, I think, masonry, some kind of occult or secret society.

[Michael]

Freemasonry, though.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, I think so. Or it might have been a different one. I'm not too sure. But he also was. His grandmother was a practiced black magic. She put hexes on people, a lot of witchcraft. And every time I stepped on this property, I got weird. Like, I just. I was dizzy and I was not myself. I became paranoid. I thought, oh, my goodness, we had a guest sidekick come on. And I was like, they're auditioning someone else to take my place. And it just really. It wasn't me. And I just was thinking these crazy thoughts. I'm like, no one likes me. And I don't know what it was. Well, I know now what it was, but we were in the backwoods. Backwoods of Georgia. At nighttime, we're filming, and I look behind my co host and we're in the woods, and I see between him what I can only describe as like a goblin face. Seething and just staring at me for like a split second. It just appeared, almost as if it wanted to get me. And I jumped back. And that. That image is really seared into my mind forever. And this thing just wouldn't leave me alone. It started changing forms and became this giant tar being. It sounds crazy talking about it now, but it changed and multiplied into these 8 to 10 foot tar beings that would then follow me around my house. And as I'm walking around and trying to sleep, I would see these beings.

[Michael]

You'd see them? Not just sort of feel their breath. You'd see them?

[Christina Costanza]

I'd feel them, yeah. And it was kind of. I would see it both sometimes with my own eyes and sometimes what they would call like in your mind's eye. Back then I would say your third eye. But I don't know how to describe it. It was very like in between the physical and spiritual realm. I'd be able to see them. And they'd be hovering over my. And grinning at me and really very taunting me and almost kind of like, I got you, I'm watching you. And just wait. They would communicate with me almost telepathically in a sense where I.

[Michael]

They don't have bodies.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah. They can do whatever they want. And these things just wouldn't let up. And it just kept getting worse and worse right up until I got saved, which was about five years ago.

[Michael]

So you say you developed your psychic abilities. How so? What's psychic 305 compared to psychic 101?

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, so I would actually. I had books Psychic for Beginners, like how to enhance your psychic abilities. And in that kind of witchcraft world, there's different stones you can have to enhance those abilities. I believe amethyst was one of them. And I had just actually got an amethyst ring from my. I think it was my 20th. And right after that is when I got into ghost hunting. So I was like. The amethyst, it helped me awaken this ability. And in the books that I was reading, it was talking about just practicing going with your intuition, going with the first thought that pops up and trying just focusing your energy on something. Your concentration, your intellect, your energy. And just the desire itself of wanting to enhance these abilities is going to enhance them. Yeah, it was some wild stuff I would read. And the more.

[Michael]

I guess that makes sense though, because, you know, it's like when a woman runs up to Christ in the Gospels and touches the hem of his garment. This is very important because it shows you that there is a physical aspect to Faith, but it is her faith that is really taking precedence over the physicality matters. You know, in the Book of Acts, when. When people are touching handkerchiefs to St. Paul and sending it out to. There is a physical aspect, obviously, because it's an incarnational and sacramental faith, but it's not like a magic handkerchief.

[Christina Costanza]

Right. It's not the object itself. It's the faith of the person that is. You're chasing after it. Like, I literally have the woman touching the hem of the garment in my head. I'm blessed enough to be able to lead worship at my church. And even on my worst days, I'm like, man, this is gonna be really hard. But if I can just get there and just get up on there and just touch the hem of his garment, I know it's gonna be okay. And I've had so many of those moments where just having the faith has helped me overcome, but it was also in the. When I was in the darkness as well. Just having the faith that, oh, I am going to grow into these psychic abilities. And I believe it's going to. I think your belief is very important, whether it's wherever it's placed. And Henry Ford talks about whether you think you can or you can't. You're right. And I used to really believe that as well. And I'm like, okay, no, I am a psychic. I can do this. I can do this. And I got what I wanted.

[Michael]

So did you at any point. I know you're kind of down the rabbit hole at this point. You're doing the weird pendulum thing, and, you know, you're pretty in it, but when the giant tarp beings are following you around, did you ever think, huh, this isn't great, you know, maybe I should get out of this?

[Christina Costanza]

Well, I definitely didn't think it was great, but at that time, I thought there was good beings and dark beings, that there was. Maybe I would call them angels, but beings of light, and I would call them demons. At the time, I was actually very into demonology. Flirted with Satanism at one point.

[Michael]

Really?

[Christina Costanza]

Oh, yeah. Like, at one point, I found myself agreeing with Aleister Crowley and his teachings. I'm like, that's kind of weird. Maybe I should be.

[Michael]

Aleister Crowley's one of the founders of modern Satanism.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Isn't he the one who said that the first and only commandment is do without wilt?

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah. Literally. Literally what Satan say, what he does say.

[Michael]

That's also the chief claim of liberalism, political liberalism. You can do whatever you want. It doesn't hurt anybody. Doesn't matter about your choice.

[Christina Costanza]

Yep. And I was one of those people. I was a full on, like, liberal, feminist, vegan witch. All these things, doing whatever, because I didn't care. I didn't think that anything mattered. And it's funny when you don't think anything mattered. But I wanted to make contact with something beyond this physical realm. But I just. I was like, okay, I'm just gonna do whatever drugs I want. I'm just going to drink, I'm gonna sleep around. I'm gonna do whatever I want because it feels good. And life is about feeling good and being happy and all these things until it doesn't. Until you have to wake up one morning and really face the fact that this isn't making me happy. It's actually causing a lot of damage to myself. Even if I have stable relationships around me, I'm not stable. I'm hurting. I'm in pain. And these crystals aren't working anymore. The saging, you know, lighting sage and thinking, that's going to get these tar beings away. That's not working. The hypnotisms, the. The law of attraction, the vision boards, the manifestations, all of these things that were working for a little while, they stopped working.

[Michael]

They were working in what sense?

[Christina Costanza]

So I totally thought I manifested myself. That travel channel show. Yeah, because I was visualizing it and I was going through kind of interviews at that point. They're not so much auditions because it wasn't fiction, but I was like, wow, I manifested this. I saw myself doing this, and I manifested myself my husband. I manifested this. And not realizing that I didn't do any of that.

[Michael]

And manifesting for people who are not millennial white women watching this, it's like praying to God, except it's just praying to yourself. Basically.

[Christina Costanza]

Praying to the universe.

[Michael]

To the universe.

[Christina Costanza]

So you kind of. I think some people believe different things. I had the personal belief that the universe. Oh, goodness. It's so. It's hard to talk in this sense, going back in this verbiage, but I used to think that the universe was. It had your back. It wants to bless you, it wants to give you whatever you want. You just have to align yourself right now with the version of you that has those things. You have to start thinking money thoughts. You have to think. If it's to be rich, you have to think like a rich person. You have to think like this person. You have to visualize it. It's exhausting. It works. You gotta write things down that you're already thankful for it, you have to meditate five minutes a day. You gotta do all these things. You gotta do, do, do, do, do all these work. And it was exhausting. And I was doing all of that right up until the moment I got saved. In the moment that I started following Jesus. It was like all that load, that weight, that burden that I had to do all these things to raise my vibration, to access my higher self, to be the best version of me.

[Michael]

Because that's all kind of Pelagian, right? The Pelagian heresy, the notion that you can save yourself, that you do it through your own will and you don't necessarily need God's grace. You say that the view is that the universe is gonna bless you, but then you end up having to do all these things, and it doesn't exactly work. Whereas Christianity says it's not that there's no role for you to do stuff, you have to cooperate with God's grace, but it's that God's grace comes first. God's grace really does it all. So you're trying to. You think you've manifested the Travel Channel show, many such cases. I think in Hollywood, you know, we call it Gomorrah by the Sea around here. And so you. You've got everything you want. You got a TV show that's pretty cool. But you were miserable.

[Christina Costanza]

Miserable because I was experiencing so much dark activity. These things would be with me in my hotel room messing with me, and literally I'd be pushed and scratched and pinched and just really taunted and tormented, and I was just riddled with fear all the time. And my health was struggling on and off, and I was just.

[Michael]

Not your mental health or your physical.

[Christina Costanza]

Health, and I was struggling with anxiety. I had crazy anxiety. At one point in my journey, I was severely depressed and suicidal. That led me deeper into the witchcraft part of it and all that paranormal nonsense. But I was just really hurting. And I thought that crystals and the law of attraction, that was like, okay, maybe it's not the deep witchcraft, maybe it's this good, the good magic, the light magic. I thought there was a difference between maybe the darkness and the light, that I have to just chase after the light.

[Michael]

So you were seeing the weird tar beings and the ghoulish gobliny faces. Do you ever see anything now? Do you see anything in the same way that you would have seen something then or. No, as that mist evaporated, it really.

[Christina Costanza]

Stopped in that sense after I came to the Lord. But I can sometimes I can see darkness on people. I've Seen that tar ness in people. Before I got saved, I was dealing with someone who was under the influence of alcohol and kind of this big fit of rage. And I looked into his eyes and I could see that same tar in his eyes and I could just see it kind of wrapped in his body and I.

[Michael]

You mean physically? Like, you'd see tar, like going down his. What's that? Like, kind of.

[Christina Costanza]

It's almost like this flash an image in my head. I'm like, oh, that's what he's struggling with. It's very dark. He has darkness in him and I could see it in his eyes. I can still see things like that. I can't just straight up see demons like I used to or being. So I think Satan also. Yeah, that's very good. He gives you kind of the perverted gifts of the spirit where he allows you to, I don't know, see different things and beings. And I. Now I have. I feel like what's proper with gift of discernment or being able to see in the spiritual realm? Sometimes I can see what people are struggling with. Sometimes the Lord allows me to just have a quick image in my head sometimes. Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah. Those gifts are quite different, I suppose, in that. That you might not be able to see like squinty goblins, but you might be given patience or something. You know, I'll take patience over goblin vision every day of the week.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah. Yeah. Because that stuff really. I talk about it a lot with coming out of it. There's a lot of PTSD that came with coming out of Paranormal in the New Age. Because of all the stuff that I saw. I didn't know how to handle it. And I didn't know. It just kind of like, it shakes you. Because I'm like, how can I? First of all, I could never go to a therapist and talk to them about the goblins that I saw or the demons, these tar beings. They would look at me like I'm crazy because I'm like, they're not going to understand. Like, I need a spiritual people. And not everybody at church understands these things.

[Michael]

Did you ever wonder if you just had a screw loose and you needed some Prozac or something?

[Christina Costanza]

That would probably hit me. I'm like, am I really seeing these things? I'm like, but I got people confirming things with equipment and all these different things. I'm like, okay. But I just. It was wild and I just. It was. It was really scary.

[Michael]

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[Christina Costanza]

I think in my beginning of my paranormal journey, I thought there was just people that have lived and died, ghosts or demons. That was the beginning. And then as I progressed I knew there could be. At that point I thought there could be so much more that we could be speaking with. It could be an alien, it could be an angelic being from a different dimension, possibly a. What we would call cryptozoology is talking to Bigfoot or some type of different dimensional beings that I would think demons, people that I've lived on and just spiritual entities, even elemental energy, where animals, that type of stuff as well. So I thought you could really communicate with so many different things, even living people as well.

[Michael]

You know the funniest part, people make fun of Christians because we pray to God and to a man who is God, Christ. And depending on your background and your denomination or, you know, Christian tradition, you could venerate saints or the Blessed Mother or something like that. And they make fun of us for all this. Or you could ancient Christian practice of venerating relics. People say that's so crazy. It's the craziest thing. Yeah, well we ain't praying a Bigfoot, you know, we ain't praying like a big Cryptozoo dog alien or something. But all the really fancy Modern libs, they're doing that stuff and they call us nuts.

[Christina Costanza]

Well, I literally was that person. I was that person. So it's so crazy to speak on this from the other side, where I thought Christianity was just this box of rules just to keep us down. It's a man made religion and it wants to cut us off from our tapping into our own godlike abilities and we have to tap into that ourselves. And I was like, look at mass, they're literally doing witchcraft on the altar.

[Michael]

I'm like, mass at holy mass.

[Christina Costanza]

I would think that, yeah, as a witch, I'm like, yep. See, they have their chalice and all these things.

[Michael]

They have their magic and we. Well, you know, even that phrase.

[Christina Costanza]

Invert it.

[Michael]

Yes, yes. No, even, you know, the black mass is a mockery of the magic, everything they do. And even this phrase, hocus pocus, I believe the etymology of that is that it's a mockery of hocus enum, corpus meus, this is my body, which is the holy words of the consecration. I think hocus pocus is a mockery of that.

[Christina Costanza]

A lot of things. They love to mock. They love to mock. And that's why the only thing they listen to and obey is the name of Jesus. They literally, it stifles them. And as we know in the spiritual realm, they're very legalistic. And so the moment that you use that authority of Jesus, they shut up. They're not.

[Michael]

And they are. I mean, they're under. Ultimately they're under the authority of the sovereign law giver. And you know, I mean, they're not greater than God. That's not gonna work for them. So I guess that's my question then. You're in all this craziness and you're praying to Bigfoot and doing all this weird stuff. And do you ever. Does your early Christian life ever return to you and say, huh, I've tried every single thing I can possibly do, from the sage to the pen to the whatever. Shall I perhaps pray to God? Might that do something for me or never even. I shouldn't laugh at it.

[Christina Costanza]

No, no. But like when you really look back, it never even crossed my mind because I just thought that's just man made religion. It's a set of rules and there's no guy in the sky, but let me just pray to the sky. Yeah, I don't.

[Michael]

It all seems so normal at the time.

[Christina Costanza]

It did. It felt very, how do I put it? Like just mystical and wild and it felt really ancient. I remember visiting Ireland where my family's from. And I really wanted to go to a summer festival, and I forget which one it was, but I was like, I really want to get in touch with my pagan roots. And like, I want to reject all that and get in touch with that. And it just. I think we are spiritual beings. Obviously, God made us that way. And we. And we're constantly craving spiritual experiences because we're meant to communicate spiritually with our creator. That's how he made us. And we're going to be searching everywhere we can because we're very distracted, curious beings. He made us very curious with free will. It just depends on what you do with that free will, whether that's gonna lead you down darkness and destruction, or it's gonna lead you to life and freedom with Jesus.

[Michael]

It's funny that people have this sense. You're not the only one I've heard express it who say, oh, I want to get back to the true old religion. There's a fascination in the west, especially in the 60s and 70s, with Eastern religion. You know, there's a phrase in the Northeast, the jubu, which is some lady who's like, probably reformed secular Jew who doesn't take that religion seriously at all, but she's really into like yoga or whatever. So it's the Buddhist, the Jubu, but there's all sorts of people like this. And you think, okay, I want to get back to my druidic Irish pagan roots. And does it ever occur to you, you know, they all converted because St. Patrick worked miracles in front of them?

[Christina Costanza]

Right. No.

[Michael]

True religion.

[Christina Costanza]

God loved my father. He's born again Christian, and he was praying for me that whole time. We tried to have conversations, and I was living during all this. I was also living with my grandparents at the time as well. And just this was after my parents divorce. That also caused a lot of hurt. So I was seeking just a lot of trauma. People that go through trauma, we're trying to heal. We're seeking just anything we can to feel good, whether that's drugs, alcohol, crystals, talking to ghosts. But my dad never stopped praying for me and trying to talk to me, but it just fell on deaf ears. I just. I didn't want to hear it. And it wasn't until, like, right. Obviously right before I got saved, it was the lockdowns and Covid and just everything that was going on in 2020, I was experiencing extreme anxiety. And everything that I was listening to, like, the liberal media, all these different things, all the protests happening, like, I can't get behind this stuff. I I just. I don't agree. I'm like, but I don't believe in Jesus. I like, okay, let me just try to sage myself. Let me just try to visualize this. And, well, I know I didn't manifest having to cancel my wedding this October. Like, I didn't manifest any of this stuff. I had all these hopes and dreams and everything stopped working. And I felt the Lord calling me. I was just like, what? What is this? That I feel. I just felt led to watch an Easter service. I had flirted with going to church throughout my time in the paranormal. Just over the course of maybe like five, six years, I was back and forth going to church. But I always felt really filthy and unworthy because I didn't understand grace and forgiveness and that if I just repented and asked him forgive my sins, I would have been washed clean. But the enemy really lied to me. It's like, you're not. You don't belong here. You're too disgusting. If they only knew all the partying you did and what you were doing. So I fell away very quickly.

[Michael]

But this is the thing. I've gone to confession a hundred billion times. And even still, when I'm in the confession line, when I'm driving up and I go into the confession line, I feel the sense of, I can't. Can I really be forgiven for this? And it's this trick that the devil plays, which is right before you sin, he tells you, it's no big deal. It's really not. It's barely even a sin. Don't worry about it. It's no big deal. And then the second you do it, he says, you'll never be forgiven. This is so horrible. You could never. And the. The closer you get to confessing your sins to God, please say egote absolvo. I absolve you of your sins. Real spiritual authority given by Christ. The closer you get to that, you can feel like you're being pulled away from it. No, it's the last gasp of it.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah. And I felt that right up into the moment of getting saved, where content I started watching turned more conservative. I'm like, okay, everyone's talking about Jesus. What is up with this Jesus guy? Maybe I should look into this. So I started talking to my dad and my stepmother. And, you know, they've done mission work. And my husband and I would literally just have four hour long conversations, just, okay, why Jesus? Why only Jesus? Why can't I also have, like an altar? Why can't I do tarot cards? And I love My spiritual stuff. I love my crystals and wands and all these things, like, and they were just so gracious. They spoke the truth in love. They were bold about it. They were loving about it. And they were just. They ministered to us and just really told us the truth. And so I don't even know the exact date, but the moment I realized my sin, I understood that everything I had been doing for so long was just. It was sin. It was an abomination that God. And it wasn't that I felt that he hated me or anything. It was just, oh, my goodness, I can't believe I was doing this. And just the weight of all that came on me, and I'm like, lord, save me. I'm sorry. I repent for all of this. I want to follow you now. And it was all that burden, it lifted off of me, and he just brought me to such freedom. And I throw all of those things, all of the occult items, the paranormal equipment, the crystals, the wands, the. The cauldron, the herbs, the tarot cards, everything. Every self help book and crazy alien stuff, I threw it all away. Just that they didn't act. The Axe Church, they got rid of all their occult items and whatnot. And I just said, lord, you have my life now.

[Michael]

Three things hit me about that one. This is a girl who's burning sage to get the 8 foot tall tar beings away from her. And you thought that was normal, but Dr. Fauci was a bridge too far. That shows you how crazy the public response during COVID was. It was so nuts that even when you are praying to the yeti, you say, hold on, these guys are really wacky. Okay, so that's the first thing. The second thing, you're recognizing what St. Paul is writing in Romans, which is that the law comes not really to save you, as you can't really save you, but it does show you your sin. It's not that the law is false. It's not that. Yeah. But it just reflects your sin. So you see that, and then you see your need for a savior and. And then all these little doodads, all the cauldrons and the whatever, and all you say, okay, it's all bunk. You just toss all of it away overnight.

[Christina Costanza]

Pretty much. I think within two weeks. I didn't realize. I'm like, I wasn't using them anymore. But I literally. I think I cried for about two weeks. Just, oh, my gosh, Lord, I love you so much. Thank you. I'm so sorry. I just. Just being in his presence and understanding everything that I had done, it was just really. I cried for two weeks. And then once I understood, I'm like, okay, this isn't my life anymore. I don't identify with these things anymore. They are not. I don't want to give the enemy a foothold in my life. Any open door in my life to come in. And I'm out of agreement with these things. So I get rid of them. I don't want to have anything to do with the evil works of doctors.

[Michael]

Now, speaking of this open door, I want to talk about something you mentioned just a little bit earlier, but it ties into exactly to this.

[Christina Costanza]

Yep.

[Michael]

You mentioned Freemasonry. Now, Freemasonry has played a big role in not just American politics since the founding, but all over the continent. It's been a big part of modernity. And the Freemasons will say that it goes all the way back to Solomon's Temple. But, you know, there are a lot of stories about these clubs in America. I'm buddies with some Masons. They're very nice guys. And they just think of it as a social club in America, more so than in continental Europe. It is kind of a social club. And yet, at least for me, you know, I'm a mackerel snapping Papist. The Catholic Church says you cannot be a Freemason. In fact, you would automatically be excommunicated. It is that Freemasonry is incompatible with the Christian faith in a way that when I mention this to friends of mine who have been involved in Masonry, they say, that's crazy. Why is that so? Why is that? Why were you seeing a Mason connection in some of these weird demon ghost houses?

[Christina Costanza]

So I'm not an expert. I don't want to claim to be. But from just from what I've gathered, you're making an oath in secret. And when you're coming, I know the Bible talks about not don't make oaths, especially in secret as well, because what is ever done in secret will come to light. But my only oath is to Jesus and God. And that's all I can really say on that. But I know that some people may follow the Bible or whatnot. There might be other hidden deeds of darkness. I am not at liberty to even go down that path. I'm not an expert on that. So I don't want to go down a field that I don't.

[Michael]

I'm not an expert. That's never stopped me before. You know, you made me think of one of the explanations when you said, why Jesus, why? Only Jesus? Why? And. And this, I think, really beyond all the conspiracies and the French Revolution and all the kind of thoughts about this, this gets to the heart of it, which is that, as I understand it, I don't know anything about Freemasonry, but as I understand posits a kind of naturalistic religion that says as long as you believe in an abstract supreme being, then you're good and you're all kind of on even footing. And it has its own rituals. I mean, you mentioned that the occult is kind of a mockery of the Christian sacraments. So it has its own kind of initiation, its own kind of baptism. It has its own funeral rites, it has its own altars, it has its own feast days. That it is, whatever else you want to say about, fulfills a lot of the criteria of religions in a way that. Yes. Without the exclusivity of Christ.

[Christina Costanza]

Right, right. Yeah, I've seen some of these rituals and whatnot. And all I know is my. That doesn't look like it comes from the Lord. I'm like, red flag.

[Michael]

Have you seen him?

[Christina Costanza]

Just random YouTube things. Like, not in person.

[Michael]

You didn't sneak in?

[Christina Costanza]

No, I've actually been trying to think where this is. The Houghton Mansion up in Massachusetts, way out west, like almost the very corner of it. I was in a Masonic lodge and we were able to go into the temple.

[Michael]

Were you ghost hunting there?

[Christina Costanza]

Ghost hunting, yeah. Okay. So doing all the things and we were able to go inside and we didn't do a lot of, I don't think, like, readings or stuff in there, but I was able to just see inside of it and whatnot. And they did have a Bible in the center here. I'm gonna, like, upset a bunch of Freemasons here, but I'm just like, they're.

[Michael]

Gonna come assassinate you.

[Christina Costanza]

I know.

[Michael]

Watch out.

[Christina Costanza]

No, but all I know is from what I have, just, they're mostly like, pretty nice guys. Very nice guys. No, I have family. That is really nice.

[Michael]

But plenty of nice guys fall into mistaken ideologies and religious views.

[Christina Costanza]

Nice doesn't get you to heaven. Christ does. I thought you just had to be a good person. But then what is good? Who defines what is good? That's kind of. This problem we have in the world right now is the moral relativism, where, well, I get to define what is good. And you see this with pro life arguments with everything out in the world right now, like, whatever, I'm a good person, but it's very arbitrary. And everyone else gets to decide it. And I thought we could all decide our own morals and what is good. And so when we're left to our own standard, it's like it's gonna vary and it's all gonna fall short. And that's why God and Jesus is the only standard.

[Michael]

At any point before you return to faith, at any point when you're seeing the tar beings and you're hearing the voices and you're depressed and you're suicidal even. Do you talk to anyone about this?

[Christina Costanza]

Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, like my husband. My fiance at the time. Well, boyfriend, fiance, husband now, talked to him about it all, but he, like I said, he out of atheism, so he didn't know what to make of all of it. Believe it or not, the paranormal world is a very big community. It's deep. And especially now with the programming you see on tv, there's entire channels that are dedicated to paranormal programming. There's events, there's conventions, there's local ghost hunts, there's local ghost tours. I'm sure, like a lot of historic cities, especially where I'm from, Boston area, I hosted them myself during the Halloween season especially, which we would call the Paranormal Christmas because it was a very big thing, a lot of events. We would host things at haunted locations and bring people along. It was a fun thing for people to do. But yeah, I just. It has such a foothold on people and people are just so curious about it. Everyone has a ghost story like we were.

[Michael]

I think everyone has a ghost story.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, everybody.

[Michael]

But you think they're all just seeing demons? I think they could largely be seeing demons. I guess I just. I do think ghosts can be real. In principle. I kind of agree. I think there's more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in our philosophy, Horatio. Not the yetis or the ETs, but I do think that there's such. You know, it's just spirits. What do you make of the alien stuff?

[Christina Costanza]

I personally think that is a demonic agenda. I think they're coming as. As aliens because I think that's the one thing that could unite humanity is a threat outside of what's on this planet. And I think there's been different projects maybe talked about. I think Project Bluebeam is something.

[Michael]

What's that? I don't know anything about it.

[Christina Costanza]

I believe. I don't know. I've heard it talk about where that could be a false flag having to do with aliens, probably drones or something. But I think the end times also talks about just a lot Of. Of. I'm not an expert on the end times as well.

[Michael]

Who is? I know I have a priest friend who says a sure sign of madness is when someone tells you he totally understands the book of the Apocalypse. That's a guaranteed sign of madness.

[Christina Costanza]

And I'm just like, I just love God and I'm following him and I'm like, no one's gonna know until it happens. And we can all have theories and whatnot, but there's some things that you have to agree on, and then there's other things that are just secondary and they're very interesting. And I'm not a biblical scholar, but I don't.

[Michael]

I agree. I think the alien thing is a total psy up. And I think it is usually a sign that someone is at least entertaining New Age mysticism and Gnosticism or at the very least is not all that rigid about their theological views.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, I was very much into aliens at one point. I thought I was a starseed. So basically it's the belief that you are a being from a different planetary system. There's different types that you're sent. This is right before I got saved. So I didn't believe this the whole time, but that's how far I had fallen before God was just like, nope, but.

[Michael]

So you're a star seed. What is a starseed? Do you think you're from another galaxy?

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, it's the belief that you have come from. There's different names for the galaxies. I thought I was a Pleiadian or something like that.

[Michael]

You struck me. Is it like a quarter Pleiadian? A quarter Italian?

[Christina Costanza]

I get that a lot, actually. But I came from. From this other dimension to help humanity reach the next dimension. I got into a lot of alien stuff right before I got saved. Talk about like these blue avians. There's different types of aliens.

[Michael]

What's a blue avian?

[Christina Costanza]

Apparently it's a type of alien that's really big and blue and kind of has a bird beak. And they communicate with people and tell them things telepathically. I was following a lot of people in that realm and kind of. I don't know what you would call it. Very New Agey, very. I don't really know the term for it, but they were into a lot of New Age and talking about the Earth going from a third dimension to the fifth dimension. So we all have to collectively agree and meditate and raise the vibrations.

[Michael]

Yeah, those vibrations, man, they're not high enough. You know, one thing I notice about a number of people Also, many of them are very nice, I find that we were speaking of, you know, the Freemasons are very nice. They're nice in kind of like a normal way. And these guys are nice in a really weird way. But they are a lot of the New Agey guys. They're really kind of sweet a lot of the time, but something that I find unites all of them. They all just coincidentally seem to be saving the world. You ever notice that?

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. It sells books too.

[Michael]

I don't think I'm saving the world. No. I hope I'm cooperating with God's grace in a way that is in any way appropriate. I hope I am, and a lot of times I'm not. But I'm not. I'm sure I ain't saving the world, right?

[Christina Costanza]

Thank God we're not, because that's.

[Michael]

There's a reason the world would not fare very well.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, same. And there's a reason that the Lord says, like Jesus tells us to take on his yoke, it's easy and his burden is light. The burdens of this world, they're so heavy. And I know that even just in my everyday life, if I'm not constantly giving up those burdens and laying them at his feet, I start to feel the weight and I crumble. And before I got saved, I felt the burden of having to save the world. Whether it was through being vegan, being the best feminist I could be, being as whatever checkbox identity I could be, but also having to save the world, getting into a lot of these ideologies that we have to band together and save the world and we gotta overcome darkness.

[Michael]

You know, I've never put that together, but that even though I just articulated this idea unknowingly, that is what unites the veganism, the climate change hysteria, the hardcore feminists, they're all the communists, they're all trying to liberate, yes, save humanity from the sun monster, or liberate women from the false consciousness, or liberate the proletariat from the shackles of their oppression, or liberate, free, free, save, save. It's all the same. Even the New Agey people trying to raise the vibrations on the ley lines or whatever, it's all. It's all about saving the world.

[Christina Costanza]

But then they also say nothing matters. And they're also nihilists. So I'm like, wait, so who are you trying to save the world for? I have people that I know, like, stop having kids. The Earth has too many kids. But we gotta save The Earth. And I'm like, for who then? Yeah, who are we saving the Earth for?

[Michael]

Rocks?

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, Nothing matters. But we have to save all these.

[Michael]

Things for the bluebird aliens. That's what you gotta save it for. Exactly. You mentioned self help books. You threw out your goblets and your cauldrons and your crystals and your sage and your self help books.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Now a lot of people are gonna be listening. They're gonna say, well, I don't have any goblets. Maybe I have like a Waterford crystal snifter or something. But I don't have any sage. Other than from the pork. I don't have any. But I do have a lot of self help books. What's wrong with that?

[Christina Costanza]

I think it depends. Mine were very new agey, but I think self. You can't help yourself. I couldn't help myself because the self. I'm the problem. I'm the problem. How am I gonna help myself?

[Michael]

To quote Miley Cyrus, it's me. I'm the problem. It's me.

[Christina Costanza]

Is that Miley? I don't know.

[Michael]

Is that Miley? That was Miley Taylor.

[Christina Costanza]

Okay. I don't know. I don't listen to them. But yeah, I can't get myself out of this. And my help comes from the Lord. My strength comes from the Lord. And the best self help book, Bible.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Christina Costanza]

Of course I've gotten like. It's unbelievable. That's because his word is alive. It's breathing, it's. I just love it so much. He's just done so much for me and he's just revealed. It convicts me all the ways that like, I do need to change and like, yes, there is responsibility on my part. I do work out my salvation. I do. Sanctification is a process and whatnot, but I can rest in him and know that he's gonna lead me on the right path. And it's more than any self help book can ever do for me. Or that I could pay any self help guru to go to their conferences to buy their next book because, oh, they have the next best answer. Oh, this is the next best thing you have to do. And it's this like this treadmill of just constantly buying books and going to seminars and all these things and you just get nowhere. You get nowhere. You're just treading on a treadmill and you're not actually running the good race.

[Michael]

You ever notice that the most miserable people you ever met in your whole life have the largest collection of self help books? You as well?

[Christina Costanza]

That was me. Yeah.

[Michael]

But then people would say, well, yeah, they're miserable. That's why they're buying all the self help books. But I said, well, well, it's like the guy who goes to therapy for 40 years and only gets worse. You say, maybe get a new therapist. I don't know, maybe talk to someone else.

[Christina Costanza]

Maybe like, nothing wrong with going to talk to somebody, but where's the change? Even like you could be going to church for so long.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Christina Costanza]

You're still the same person. You're still not operating in kindness and love. You're still living in the flesh. You're not repentant. You're not the same person Monday through Saturday as you are on Sunday. So, like, it kind of doesn't matter who you are, whether you're in church or not. What's the fruit of your life? Are you living with the fruits of the spirit like that you'll be shown by your works, shown by your fruit of your life?

[Michael]

Of course. Of course. I mean, this is when I was mentioning confession earlier. When you go in, a requirement of the sacrament is you have to be sincerely repentant and with the authority to loosen, to bind, you know, to forgive sins and to retain sins. The priest can say, hey, are you serious? Are you actually gonna. Do you actually have a firm resolve not to commit that sin anymore? Cause if not, I can't forgive you. I just can't do it. It's not gonna do anything if you're not, as St. Paul writes, if you're not discerning the body. And actually the early Christian writers write this too, if you're not, then it's. If you're just kind of going through the motions, that's not going to work.

[Christina Costanza]

Like a toddler, I'm sure you can understand as a father, just like, I'm sorry, they're just doing things just to do it. Or like siblings, you're saying sorry just to say you're sorry. But are you really sorry? That's why God doesn't look at our works. Our works are like filthy rags to him. That's why you can't save yourself. There's nothing you can do to get into heaven. That's why for by grace we are saved. And the moment that, like, nothing I could do to get me into heaven. It's the heart, it's faith and it's. God looks at your heart and he sees that.

[Michael]

There's also a parallel would be the perpetual sacrifice on the altar. You know, Christ's perpetual sacrifice, which is for modern people, it's Very difficult to grasp. But the sacrifice on the cross is eternal. It's an eternal act. And it's not like it just happened once. And I mean Christ does conquer death once, but it's perpetual in the sense that while the matter of the sacrifice is the body, the form of the sacrifice is the will. And Christ wills his will is that sacrifice eternally. And so if you're not, if you're not discerning that, participating in that, if you're just like walking through a door and maybe kneeling and maybe then you're gonna have a hard time and now go down about 50,000 rungs to I am happy and you can too by Johnny. And you read these stupid books. I would disagree that only the Bible is a self help book. And maybe that's not the claim you're making, but there is a sense that, that there are derivative works from the Bible that are good. There is like good Christian self help.

[Christina Costanza]

This great Christian authors that I've been helped. Like I have many books, suddenly I don't want to.

[Michael]

CS Lewis is a pretty good one. There's a great book, I think it's from the 16th century called the Spiritual Combat by Dom Lorenzo Scupoli. Marvelous, marvelous book. I counted it a few years ago. Very practical steps on spiritual combat or self help based on the natural virtues. So like Aristotle's ethics or something like that. But that's not what modern self help is, is it? What's that stuff?

[Christina Costanza]

I personally, I see it as tapping into like think of someone like Tony. I was already into Tony Robbins at one point and I think there's some good aspects where some people need to get out of this like self destructive state. But it has you, you looking at yourself almost like a God being where you're tapping into your inner, I don't know how to describe, like your inner lion, your inner being that you can just become this great person and all these things. And all I know is that it didn't help me. Maybe it helped me for a little bit, but ultimately when things got dark or when I was experiencing hardships in my life and it just, everything fell on me to fix. So all right, I fixed myself. So when I started feeling bad again, I'm like, well, must not have worked. Maybe I just gotta go deeper. Well, maybe I got more work to do. Oh man, I didn't do enough. I gotta do more. Okay, maybe I have to. People that have come out of the new age will know what I'm talking about, integrate my shadow self. I need to get in Touch with my shadow self. Now I've elevated this part of me. So now the shadow part. My.

[Michael]

I'm just looking from the studio lights. I don't know that I've integrated my shadow. I still have a shadow. What is the integration of the shadow side?

[Christina Costanza]

Well, from a Christian point of view, that's our flesh. That's the flesh. But in the new age, it's your dark side, I guess. Your hurts, your pains. I don't even know exactly. Your vices, I think your vices, all these things. It's funny, I would be able to talk about these things without ever fully knowing what they meant or where these ideas came from. I'd be following these gurus and I would be on the lives and I'm like, they'd be Talking about the 11 laws of the universe. And I literally would ask like, where do these laws come from? They would never answer me. And I would actually get really annoyed and upset. I'm like, I just, I like to know where things come from. And I think that's ultimately what led me to Jesus because there's good evidence there. You can tell where everything's coming from and it's not just made up.

[Michael]

Yeah, I can tell you the history of the gravitational constant. I can't tell you the history of the eleven magical laws of self help or whatever.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, like the universal and manifestation and all these things. And people wouldn't be able to tell me because they would come from these channeled books that people would channel beings and they would get this information from spiritual demon beings.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Christina Costanza]

And then they would just kind of different people would kind of take those same concept and regurgitate it into their own self help books and whatnot. So that's the thing, like a lot of these self help books, you don't know where some of these ideologies are coming from. They could be pagan and demonic in nature. And that's why I'm like, if it's not coming from good sound teaching, you just gotta be using discerning discernment at this point.

[Michael]

There's an observation, longstanding, it's not original, that one of the pities of people selling themselves is how low the price is. You know, the notion that you would mortgage your soul or attempt to sell your soul for like Oprah Book Club self help gobbledygook is so pathetic that you would. That you would give up true revealed religion and natural religion even for that matter, for like some dumb quartz rock or whatever is so. And for you say, no, man, you know it's like, man, St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas and like, all the doctors of the church ever, they're all a bunch of dumb idiots. But let me tell you about the blue beaked bird demon or whatever.

[Christina Costanza]

Have I got some news for you.

[Michael]

The alien. Not demon. Alien. Yeah. Good grief.

[Christina Costanza]

Like I used to think, those rocks and stuff, I'm like, well, God made the rocks, so obviously they're good. And I can use this one for love and healing. And this one will protect me from demonic activity. And this one will help me tap into my psychic powers. And clearly, God made these so I can use them for the things that he tells me to stay away from.

[Michael]

Yeah, you know, look, I see actually why that's attractive, because God made me, too. But, you know, sin and death pervade the world because of the Fall, so we don't blame him for that. But people do this with drugs. Sometimes they'll say, especially with pot. The old sin, spinach, you know, the devil's lettuce, the Haitian oregano, You might have heard of it.

[Christina Costanza]

Yes.

[Michael]

Yeah. Peruvian parsley. And they'll say, you know, whenever you make even a mild criticism of the old marijuana, they'll jump on you and they'll say, hey, man, how could you say that? You know, God made pot, man. It's natural. Like hemlock is natural. You gonna drink that? That's not a good idea. Speaking of goblets.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, but you have to do so much to get to that point, don't you? I'm like, I don't know, I never grew it or anything. Partook a few times, but.

[Michael]

A few times.

[Christina Costanza]

You never inhaled by accident? Worst experience of my life.

[Michael]

I took a few puffs on the jazz, cigarettes every now and again. Never did much for me.

[Christina Costanza]

I don't like it. I preferred alcohol at that point because I could control it better and I liked the feeling it gave me and whatnot.

[Michael]

It's a great way to wake up. No, I'm joking. Don't do it. No, but I like, you know, I don't really have a druggie personality. Of all my sins, that's not one of them. But booze, it's a very. You have a glass of wine or two, a cocktail or something. It makes you more sociable. It makes you a little more outgoing. Whereas a lot of other drugs that the libs and the New Age people are into, it's just. It makes you more introverted. It makes you kind of quieter.

[Christina Costanza]

You're in your own experience. And like, I didn't like pop. But I would like other different, like, party drugs and stuff like that. And it would just wake me up and make me feel alive. And I remember, man, I was just so lost and broken that I would go to church still buzzed and high from the night before. I would wake up in another guy's bed and just super early in the morning on a Sunday, I'm like, where are you going? I'm like, I gotta go to church. I was so broken.

[Michael]

That's better than not going to church, right?

[Christina Costanza]

But I just. I would be watching the music and I'm just, like, still on this stuff, and it just. It's opening you up to some. Some really dark bondage. You don't realize it, but I. I loved that stuff at one point. But then, praise God, even before I got saved, he had me get out of all of that as well.

[Michael]

I have an unfortunate number of friends who have suggested illicit drug use as a way to be more spiritual and, you know, in touch with your real self and the universe and everything. Did you see that? Did you ever get into that? The psychedelics? Did you see that? Is there a connection?

[Christina Costanza]

I never did psychedelics. Just the hard party drugs, apparently.

[Michael]

Just the fun ones.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, just the fun ones. But I. I was very tempted to get into ayahuasca. I had some friends that did that and. Cause I was.

[Michael]

It's like, wait, I get to go to Mexico and vomit for a weekend? Yeah, but what's the catch?

[Christina Costanza]

See, dark beings that bring me into the clouds and I don't know, but they. It was really. So I was part of the vegan community for a long time, and I got into raw veganism as well, which was kind of not eating any cooked food. And I would go to different potlucks and vegan events and. And there's. I was every type of vegan. I was the angry, protesting kind, but then I was also the super, like, hippie crunchy girl, like, into all that fun stuff, raising my vibration. And a lot of people would be on psychedelics, and that really was like, I don't wanna be that.

[Michael]

It's like, I won't. Hey, man. I won't even cook my broccoli rabe because of the oils and the toxins. Hey, you want my bathtub acid?

[Christina Costanza]

Literally, I.

[Michael]

Hey, man.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, literally. That was me as a vegan at one point.

[Michael]

Wow.

[Christina Costanza]

I gotta, like, save the animals, but I'm gonna do cocaine. So. Yeah.

[Michael]

Wow. It was just especially funny. I need to triple filter my water and I can't ever have A hamburger. But I'm gonna do this tab of drug that was concocted in, like, a trap house.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, yeah, here's some gasoline and whatever. God knows what. And. But, like, you're totally doing great by eating this thing of lettuce. But the cognitive dissonance was very real with so many different things, like, oh, I can't pray to God, but I can pray to the stars. And I can't have this burger, but I can have cocaine. So explain that one. I still haven't come up with an answer yet.

[Michael]

I've noticed that people who do a lot of cocaine often don't want to eat hamburgers.

[Christina Costanza]

Oh, really?

[Michael]

Because their appetite is suppressing.

[Christina Costanza]

Oh. Thankfully, it was only a handful of times, but I enjoyed it. And I thank God every day that all of that could have turned out so differently for me. And for some reason, by the grace of God, he just allowed it to not go any further than it did. And I'm just so thankful for that.

[Michael]

Another commonality I've found with all the New Agey people and the political liberals, I guess just broadly, is they all, in principle or in practice, get into really weird sex style. Have you noticed that?

[Christina Costanza]

Yes.

[Michael]

Why? What's that about?

[Christina Costanza]

Well, I feel like maybe in more the liberal ways of thinking is anything goes, like, whatever, man, nothing matters, and just do what makes you feel good. It's kind of fleshy, hedonism, carnality, New age. I feel like the more enlightened people get, the more they just. They fall in love with people's souls or something like that. And there's actually. See, I got into it for a hot second. There's sexual magic where you can use a beautiful thing that God gave us to be shared with your husband or wife, to use that special feeling to manifest and create your own reality where you visualize what you want when that feeling is happening. And you envision it in a big light tunnel going up to the universe, and you basically use your sexual energy to use. To do magic.

[Michael]

And so I've actually heard this phrase before. I don't know anything about it, but I've heard this phrase, sex magic.

[Christina Costanza]

Okay?

[Michael]

That's what it is. It's basically you just like, think happy thoughts.

[Christina Costanza]

It could be other. It could be a lot of other. There's probably dark ways people do this and whatnot, but that's what I learned and practiced at one point. I know there's people that have done some really crazy stuff with. I don't even wanna go. It's very graphic but there's. Yeah, there's a lot of different things that I don't know of. I don't want to know him. I don't know how to do it. But people. I think it's a special feeling. There must be something with the energy that the enemy thinks can be powerful, or he just tries to mock us into using something very special that God gave us and to pervert it and use it for nefarious reasons.

[Michael]

Yeah. And it is somewhat easily perverted. You know, I guess part of it is, is, yes, liberalism says, if it feels good, do it. And the New Agey stuff, you could see how that would get into the real weird sex stuff like transgenderism, because you say, well, your body has nothing to do and it's your true selves or whatever. So, okay, yeah, I get how that could take you there. But also, we're human beings and we're sexual creatures, and the distinction between men and women is the essential distinction within human nature. And so sex. Yeah, of course it matters. You know, I always thought it was so crazy when the left would say, on the one hand, sexual assault is this national epidemic and Harvard Yard is, you know, this hotbed of mass rape. And, you know, this was during all the kind of Title 9 craziness. And so they'd be talking about how there's this epidemic of just constant sexual violence. And it was me too, and all the rest the of.

[Christina Costanza]

Yep.

[Michael]

And also, sex doesn't matter at all. And it's like a totally casual act.

[Christina Costanza]

It doesn't matter.

[Michael]

And you say, well, if sex doesn't matter, then why is sexual assault worse than regular assault?

[Christina Costanza]

Right. Though they're big thing. I think consent, obviously.

[Michael]

Consent, okay. But I don't consent to be assaulted with a punch to the face. Why is sex assault so much worse than someone shoving me? We all agree it is.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, obviously it is terrible. And I think their ideology, the ideology that I used to ascribe to is as long as. As maybe I didn't partake, but it was more. So as long as people are consenting and of age and they're not an animal, then I guess. Yeah. And people were. It's like, whatever. Whatever you want to do, go for it. And that's this kind of. If you read the word, you would know that that's outside of God's beautiful design, and especially with what Satan wants to do. He wants to blur the lines of man and woman, of what marriage is, of what just what good and holy unions look like.

[Michael]

It's interesting, too. Even that phrase, such a stupid phrase, sex magic. Because the most truly magical aspect of sex is conception. It's that you can make a person like this thing that you do that you very much want to do when you do it. You can make a human being.

[Christina Costanza]

It's crazy.

[Michael]

Which is wild. But that's the part of it where they would all say, no, that's bad, we gotta kill that, we gotta avoid that.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah. Then you get into the oh, it's so sad. Where I was vegan and pro choice at one point.

[Michael]

Yeah. Many such cases.

[Christina Costanza]

Yep, yep. And it's just, in fact, I would.

[Michael]

I would wager virtually all vegans support abortion.

[Christina Costanza]

Most I did meet some just blanket pro life, which was beautiful and it convicted me. At one point I actually became pro life before I got saved just based on science alone. And just watching people debate, I'm like, that makes so much sense.

[Michael]

It's a baby. It's like, how do I kill it?

[Christina Costanza]

How can I not? How can I not? Yeah. Yep. People think I was just like, oh, just because you're Christian. Like, no, actually I started believing this way before God really showed me why I believe this way.

[Michael]

So you mentioned earlier you wanted to bring a feminine touch to ghost hunting because it was a male dominated field. And I guess I know some woo woo new age guys who are into this stuff. But it's mostly ladies.

[Christina Costanza]

Very much so.

[Michael]

It's a lot of chicks are into like the secret and all that stuff. What is that dynamic? Like what's the. Tell me about the men in all this weird witchy ghosty stuff.

[Christina Costanza]

So in the ghost hunting world, it's a lot of. I have a lot. There's a lot of great people there. So like, I don't want to, like, I'm not making fun of anyone.

[Michael]

We love, listen, we love the Freemasons and Tony Robbins and the ghost hunters, but some of my best friends are ghost hunters.

[Christina Costanza]

But there you go. No, but there's a lot of kind people. But it was a lot of just people at the time. A lot of the men were designing equipment. They were really focused on like the scientific aspect of it. So the electromagnetic field, field readers, we call them K2 meters. All the different beep beep, boop boop type scientific stuff.

[Michael]

This sounds like Scientology where they read your thetan lab.

[Christina Costanza]

Oh, right.

[Michael]

Is this real? Like is it real? Maybe that's real.

[Christina Costanza]

I don't know. I mean like I would see something and then the scientific equipment would pick it up. So the moment I was like, I just felt Something touch my arm. Then the electromagnetic field reader would give me a reading or go up and make noises and whatever the thing was assigned to do. So that was the thing that really kept me coming back is the evidence was there. I was. The equipment was confirming what I was feeling. And that's why I'm like, well this has to. How can this not be real? I'm seeing this, I'm feeling it. That's capturing it. What else am I supposed to do?

[Michael]

But you don't think it's a natural phenomenon?

[Christina Costanza]

I think some things were. That's why we would try to like we would try to scan for where the plumbing equipment was or, or if it went off, we'd try to recreate things. And you were, I guess, trying to test the spirits in our own way.

[Michael]

I guess. Because a spiritual thing by definition is not a corporeal thing. So like a traditional understanding of an angel or a demon is that they're pure intellect, not body. Where animals, the lower beasts are just body and instinct and appetite. Angels are pure intellect and will. And we're this middle ground where we have bodies. We're bodies like animals, but we're intellect and will like angels. And so we're in this really interesting middle ground. And so you'd say, well look, a demon or a ghost. A ghost comes from geist, which is spirit that doesn't have a body. But I guess upon further reflection, wouldn't you say, well, an important reality of our faith is that there is in fact a connection between the spiritual and the physical. This is essentially the definition of a sacrament and it reaches its apotheosis in the incarnation when God becomes man. So obviously there's a connection. I'm actually not surprised that you say some spirit turns up a few beep boops on a recording device.

[Christina Costanza]

Well, we are literally made in his image. So we are triune just like him. Soul, flesh, spirit. Spirit is communing with God and the flesh is like we're still gotta battle that every day. And there's a constant battle. So we're kind of in touch with both the carnality of ourselves and the walking by the spirit. It's something I have to try to do every day. It's very hard. But thank God for his grace and his mercy and he helps us do that. But yeah, definitely thought that being a medium, you were kind of the in between for the physical and the spiritual realm that, oh, I'm the medium where they can communicate through me and connect the two whatnot.

[Michael]

Now that you've come out of it, is there. What's your Christian view of these things? Meaning? You know, we are you like a CS Lewis kind of mere Christianity. You believe in the Nicene Creed? I believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven. That's a common sort of non denominational. Well, we're a mere Christian. C.S. lewis wrote a book about this. And the Nicene Creed is this ancient Christian creed. But there, you know, we recognize the communion of saints, the saints in heaven. We recognize we're all part of the mystical body of Christ. So there's this kind of connection there that we see references to the cloud of witnesses. You know, we see in the book of the Apocalypse, which you were talking about earlier, the saints are holding buckets of their prayers. And we, we believe that there are choirs of angels and we believe in the Archangel Gabriel and Michael. So it's this very full world. Previously, that world usually invisible to us for you, was populated by yetis and tar monsters. Now is it that that world has been demystified or is it now full of the real thing, the angels and the saints and the choirs and. And the celestial bodies.

[Christina Costanza]

It's kind of the veil has been lifted where it's that now I know the lens to view these things and why God has told me to stay away from them. That there's a reason for it, that it's so dangerous because we don't know what's out there. There's a whole spiritual realm. There's a war happening in the spirit on our behalf. And we also wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities. There's spirits that the devil is prowling around like a lion waiting to devour us. And look for weaklings, people that with open doors. The legal system in the spirit realm is so prevalent that you just. They look for any crack, any open door, whether that's content you're watching and things you're speaking and coming to agreement with.

[Michael]

And when you say content, are you talking about this big problem, especially for young men, which is porn?

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah, but there's other content that's bad for you. There's other content like even are women watching these gossipy catty shows? Gossip is also detestable. It's not just these major big things like are you gossiping? Are you jealous, Are you in envy? That's also a work of.

[Michael]

Look, this is a little close to home for me because I host a political show, except when I'm doing this one, but generally I do a daily political show and there is A real incentive to detract toward what St. Paul condemns as a railing and reviling spirit. And you see it, you see it on a lot of these shows. And people are just railing constantly, reviling, detracting. And it's a temptation and it's a hazard in my line of work, but it's very spiritually dangerous.

[Christina Costanza]

It is, it is. And there's a reason why God tells us to guard our gates, our eyes, our ears, our mouth, and to be very, I think, like I said earlier, to live with the fruit of the spirit. I desire to have the fruit of the spirit more than the gifts of the spirit. Where I wanna be walking in love and joy and patience and kindness and self control. There's moments that I haven't not had self control. I still don't have it with certain ways I react. But the Lord is so gracious and to remind me, it's like, okay, maybe there's an obvious sin here with this person, but. But take the plank out of your own eye and work on your own self control. And that's why the content we watch and all these things, like I said, powers and principalities are at work. And they're here to keep you from coming to the truth that Jesus is Lord, he's here to save you. And they want you operating outside of the will of God and they want you in bondage still.

[Michael]

So what's your message to the ghost hunters who are still going out there with the tape recorders or whatever they have now? Probably an iPhone app. Or the young men and women who want to talk to a ghost, want to do the Ouija thing, want to find a blue beak to alien to have Froot Loops with. What's your message to them?

[Christina Costanza]

I understand the appeal, especially, I haven't lost a parent. But I can understand wanting to possibly try to make contact with somebody. I know a lot of people are hurting and that's why they go to psychics, they go to mediums, they go to these ghost hunts wanting to make just contact with other people they know or they're just wanting to. They're curious. I know there's just a curiosity. We are born with that curiosity. It goes all the way back to the garden. But Satan has come to deceive us. He's masquerading himself as a being of light. So he's gonna trick you and he's gonna come back as somebody that you know and love and. Or even somebody that you don't know. Just people that are out there. And I would just Urge people to have such high discernment in this hour, to stay away, take no part in the evil deeds of darkness. You want to separate yourself from this stuff. And curiosity opens a door. And that's what led me down this thing. I was curious. And that curiosity, because I didn't turn around and stop it right then and there, it led me down this destructive path into ghost hunting. And it only left me demonized and in bondage and in chains. And I would just urge people to please, please, just stay away from it. Don't watch the shows, stop going on these ghost hunts. If you have the equipment, if you have these occult objects, get rid of them and repent and turn to Jesus.

[Michael]

It's not that curiosity is awful in itself, but it has to be ordered by morality and charity and ordered toward God. The minute it just becomes this idle little game, then curiosity kills the cat. Do you remember, Remember that old show, the guy, John Edwards, not the presidential candidate, Jonathan Edwards, the guy who, always a psychic.

[Christina Costanza]

The crowd.

[Michael]

He had the crowd, he did the crowd work and he told them that they were all talking to their dead spouse or whatever. And he preyed on these. Look, maybe he was doing it sincerely, so I don't want to accuse him of something, but regardless, what he was doing is preying on very grieving, damaged people to get ratings on tv. It was a dreadful, dreadful show. But there was always a debate about. About it. Was he doing a cold reading and he was just putting on a magic trick or was he doing something even darker?

[Christina Costanza]

I think it could be so many different answers, especially nowadays where people have. They could probably. Producers could probably look up information or credit card and they have your name and stuff like that. But back in the day, I think it could be so many different things where they're actually getting information. They, they have parlor tricks like, oh, I'm getting someone with a name that starts with J very easy.

[Michael]

I'm getting a B. My wife's name's Belinda. Yes, Belinda said she misses you. Wow, that's amazing, John.

[Christina Costanza]

Yeah. And I think people sometimes are very desperate to hear something and wanting to make contact. I know people, I know people that are desperate and they're still stuck in this and seeking to hear from people. And it's because we're just. Like I said, it's the curiosity, but it is what you do with that curiosity. Is that going to lead to an action? Are you going to start looking things up? Are you going to start watching shows? And that's to do with so many different things. Not just the paranormal, but works of the flesh and whatnot. But I would just urge people to have self control, to stay away from this stuff, take no part in the evil deeds of darkness and just focus on Jesus.

[Michael]

That's a good point because, yeah, especially you go ghost hunting because people die and that makes you sad. But there's only one way we know to overcome death. There's only one example of it. And it's not on the Travel Channel.

[Christina Costanza]

No.

[Michael]

That's good. Thank you so much for coming on. Where can people follow your work?

[Christina Costanza]

They can find me on Instagram right now and hopefully a YouTube channel as well. Ristina Costanza.

[Michael]

Costanza. It's a good strong Italian name. Christina, thank you so much for coming on.

[Christina Costanza]

Thank you for having me.

[Michael]

See you next time.

[Christina Costanza]

Mama. Papa. Mi cuerpo crece a un ridmo. Alarm.

[Michael]

Packages by Expedia. You were made to occasionally take the hard route to the top of the Eiffel Tower. Oh, we were made to easily bundle your trip Expedia made to travel flight inclusive packages are atoll protected Paquetes Expedia.

[Christina Costanza]

Vivies paradis frutar de la musica contodos.

[Michael]

Tu sentidos.

[Christina Costanza]

Vivimos parabrindarte Paquetes viaje y experiencias Pormenos Expedia vivimos paraviajar.