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The Michael Knowles Show
Michael & The Shroud of Turin: "Mind-Blowing Discovery " | Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
01:35:58
Is the Shroud of Turin the real burial cloth of Jesus Christ—or the greatest mystery in Christian history? In this powerful episode of Michael &, Michael Knowles is joined by theologian and historian Dr. Jeremiah Johnston to uncover the mind-blowing discoveries surrounding the Shroud. From scientific analysis and historical evidence to theological significance, they explore what makes the Shroud one of the most studied and debated relics in the world—and what it could mean for believers today. - - - Today’s Sponsor: Hallow - Put your relationship with God first. Head over to https://hallow.com/knowles for three months free today!
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- [00:00]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
The Shroud is an image of a crucified man with wounds that correspond to the brutality that Jesus of Nazareth experienced.
- [00:09]
Michael Knowles
So why do you think it's real?
- [00:11]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
They cannot explain how the image is in the Shroud. This is brand new for your program. I'm publishing right now with an archaeologist on what I'm about to share. Do you have your phone with you by chance?
- [00:22]
Michael Knowles
Yes, I do.
- [00:23]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
I want you to do an exercise on camera with me, if you don't mind.
- [00:26]
Michael Knowles
Okay.
- [00:26]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Look at the face of the Shroud right here.
- [00:38]
Michael Knowles
Every few years there's a news headline that we've discovered what Jesus looked like. And every time the left wing media put up some picture of basically a gorilla and they try to pretend to us that that is our Lord. But there is an answer to all of these headlines, namely that we might already know what Jesus looked like because we have his burial cloth. The Shroud of Turin. When I was a boy, I was told the Shroud of Turin was totally debunked. And then the debunking got debunked. And I'm not an expert in any of this, but My guest today, Dr. Jeremiah Johnston, is an expert and we have not the original. That would be very impressive. But this is impressive enough. We have a full scale copy of the Shred of Torah and Jeremiah.
- [01:28]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Thank you for being here, Michael. You're a warrior for truth. I love your program and I'm just excited. We have breaking news to cover. We have a lot and we have some delicious details for the audience. So people better get ready and buckle up.
- [01:40]
Michael Knowles
I can't wait. Also, you've been very kind to give me your book, body of the seven Best Reasons to Believe in the Resurrection of Jesus and why it Matters Today, which you can go get. You have all sorts of goodies that you brought here. So I want to take it from the top. When I was a kid, I first of all thought the Shroud of Turin was just a Catholic thing. It didn't occur to me, you know, a lot of my Protestant friends, they don't. They're not that into relics, they're not that into religious artifacts. Some of them have real theological disagreements with even certain religious artifacts. And so it didn't occur to me that non Catholics believe in the Shroud of Turin. And then on top of that, even I as a Catholic as a kid was told the Shroud of Turin is fake.
- [02:21]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Right?
- [02:22]
Michael Knowles
There was a study in the 80s, it debunked it. It's a medieval forgery. You gotta be crazy to Think that goes all the way back to antiquity. So why do you think it's real.
- [02:34]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Based on the evidence? Because I'm not irrational, Michael. Because 102 academic disciplines have spent over 500,000 hours of scientific studies and published in peer reviewed journals their findings. And because I'm not irrational, I not only believe that the Shroud is authentic, it's not a medieval fake, it's not a medieval forgery. And like you said, every time the media brings out a picture of Jesus, it's either a gorilla or it's an effeminate male that does not smack of authenticity of a Jewish crucified man of late Second Temple Judaism. And what we have in the Shroud, it gets everything right. Here's why this is so important for the audience today. In one archeological artifact we have the death, burial and resurrection that brings all three together. And speaking of non Catholics, you bring up a valid point. I used to be a skeptic of the Shroud when I was sitting at Faculty of Theology in Keble College working on my 93,000 word thesis on the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus. I was conditioned by Faculty of Theology and I worked, I read in the Bodleian Library at Griffith Paperology Lab. I was conditioned that the Shroud is a fraud, that's just a Catholic hoax. And so I paid no attention to the Shroud. In fact, there's early YouTubes of me where I'm being interviewed about the evidences for the resurrection. I had a very highbrow Oxford answer, UK answer. Oh, I deal in the evidence. I deal with the real world. Authenticity, none of that superstition. Exactly. And then I moved to Oxford in 2009, my wife and I and our daughter. At the time we only had one child and now we have five, by the way, including triplets. So I have a dog in the hunt. Why I'm interested in this. I go to CS Lewis's home. Have you been to the kilns?
- [04:19]
Michael Knowles
The kilns? I have, yeah.
- [04:20]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Have you been in Lis. Have you been in Lewis's bedroom?
- [04:23]
Michael Knowles
Yes.
- [04:23]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
In Lewis's bedroom, above the mantel, in the room he slept in, there is a picture of the 1931 Henri photograph of the Shroud of Turin. Because Lewis, who of course is Anglican for the benefit of our audience, not a Catholic. Lewis wanted to look at the picture of the man in the Shroud every day to be reminded that our God has a face.
- [04:46]
Michael Knowles
I didn't notice that when I was there. I walked all around the house. I took notice that he would he and his brother would ash their pipes, rub it into the car. Kind of a bachelor dad. And I remember walking by his bedroom where he died. You know, they found him on the floor or something, and I didn't notice that he had a picture of the shroud.
- [05:03]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And Lewis, according to Lewis, we have to be reminded our God does have a face. Jesus narrates God to us. If we want to know who God is, we look no further than Jesus. And so scientists take the shroud seriously. And so I want to encourage people in this program to take the red pill with us, Michael, because we're going to go down the trail together. And the evidence is overpowering. I believe the shroud speaks for itself. It's the greatest mystery of all time because it speaks to the greatest message of all time. The death, burial, and physical, bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.
- [05:35]
Michael Knowles
I love that you make this point right off the top here because there are going to be. People say, well, who cares what Jesus looked like? Who cares? You know, I've even heard from people, very faithful people who say, oh, you know, look, there are depictions of Christ as black or Indian or this or that. And sure, because there is neither Jew nor Greek or slave nor free, but all are one in Christ Jesus. Right. However, he does look like something. Yes, because he's not just an idea and he's not just an abstract spirit. In fact, the crux of the faith is that God and the Son of God and the divine logic of the universe enters into history and has a face and has a body and dies, is executed by a real civil authority in history in a real place.
- [06:27]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yes.
- [06:28]
Michael Knowles
And maybe there's even physical evidence to that day of that event.
- [06:31]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And do you understand that Christianity, unlike Islam or the other religions or especially the Made in America cult, only Christianity says you can test our belief against history. Archeology is Christianity's closest cousins. I love the programs you do with archaeologists because again, for those of us trying to pass on a faith to our children, the Bible is about real people, real places, real events. I don't check my brain at the door to become a follower of Jesus. It actually is a leap into the light 228 times in the New Testament. Edon, the Greek word to see. Open your eyes and see the truth. Look, look, don't be misbelieving, but believe John 28. John goes to the tomb that first Easter morning. We know the day. I talk about this in my book Body of proof, Michael. 4-5-Ad33, according to the Jet Propulsion Laboratory of NASA, which by the way studied the Shroud. One of the 102 academic disciplines that have studied the Shroud. Sunrise that first Easter morning, April 5, AD 33 would have been 5:43am Mary goes to the tomb very early. It's still dark. Why? She's mourning the dead. She walks into the tomb, she stoops down, she looks in. What does she see? She sees the linen cloths lying there. And I believe when she goes to get Peter and John. This is brand new for your program I'm publishing right now with an archaeologist on what I'm about to share. It wasn't when they saw the 2,750 pound stone removed that they believed. It wasn't even when they saw that the tomb was empty and there was no body, that they believed that. The scripture is very clear. There's an economy of words in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. We only have 89 chapters in the Gospels that cover parts of 26 days of the life of Jesus. That's all we have. Remember, John said if we wrote everything, the libraries couldn't contain it. But these have been written so that you believe. John stoops down and looks in and it says when he saw the Athonia, the Sindon, the Sudarium, the Shroud, he believed, he saw and he believed. And what I'm publishing right now, I believe that the Shroud had the face of Jesus glowing on it. Why else could it not? Every time Jesus manifests himself, he always manifests himself according to scripture, in magnificent light. Think about Saul the Apostle. You just quoted him. Galatians 3. 28, you were quoting. He's on the way to Damascus. And I have filmed on first century roads when it's hot in Israel and the sun is blazing, you probably have too. And yet he sees Jesus. And the evidential narrative that we have in the Book of Acts is that it was lighter than the noonday sun.
- [09:05]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, yeah.
- [09:06]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
In Mark 9, when Jesus appears to the disciples, literally Jesus body is glistening. Same thing we see in the Old Testament. And so why would. And I want to make sure, I want to make sure our audience, because I understand people are hearing about the Shroud for the very first time today.
- [09:19]
Michael Knowles
Yeah.
- [09:20]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
The Shroud is an image of a crucified man, the front and back of a badly traumatized crucified man with wounds that correspond to, to the brutality that Jesus of Nazareth experienced. The image we believe was formed by 34,000 trillion watts of energy in 1/40 of a billionth of a second. According to Paul Delazo, my Friend at ENEA Labs in Rome. This is the moment of resurrection. We have God, if you will, in Jesus taking the first selfie, and it's the moment of resurrection.
- [09:55]
Michael Knowles
I've never heard it put that way.
- [09:57]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
It's helpful.
- [09:58]
Michael Knowles
This is why when you say you have this thesis that what they see is this a glowing shroud or, you know, space. Because whatever you want to say about the Shroud, we know that the image of the man on the Shroud is not painted on. No paint. And it actually seems that it's kind of a photograph because it looks like a photographic negative. And so what you're saying is, well, the image was produced by some kind of light. We at least know that. And so if you connect that fact with what we know about the Shroud, which at least some of us believe, yeah, to be the burial cloth of Christ, then surely that would have some resonance with whatever was going on in the moment that the apostles see that he's resurrected.
- [10:46]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And what caused me to move from skeptic to defender of the Shroud is scientists in the 21st century. The best scientists we have today, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Sandia Labs, Los Alamos Labs, the Air Force Academy. I've already talked about Enia Labs in Rome. 102 academic disciplines, they cannot explain how the image is in the Shroud. The image is superficial, meaning if we get closer than 8ft to the Shroud, it vanishes. You can't see it because it is so superficial.
- [11:15]
Michael Knowles
Hold on, say that again. I don't quite get that.
- [11:16]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
If you get closer than 8ft to the Shroud, the image vanishes because it's. In other words, you have to stand 8ft or more away because the image is so superficial. And this is specifically what science cannot reproduce. How do you get an image that's only on two or three microns of each fiber within the herringbone weave that is there? It's not paint, as you rightly said. And we can use the word proven. The Stirp Project, the Shroud of Turin Research project, who had 120 hours, thanks to the Savoy family of Italy. Probably your relatives in Italy had a weekend with the Shroud, where they then took three years to publish their findings. Michael. And we have proven. I use that word according to science. It is not man made, it is not pigment. There's no dye. It is not an artwork. And so I want to help. Some of the fine Christians that you've brought up are like, hey, I don't need the Shroud. Take it or leave it. I Have my Bible, you know, it was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for me. That's all I need is the Bible. Well, can I just say something to my friends who have that pious view? It wasn't enough for the writers of the New Testament. There would be no New Testament had they not had these experiences. Acts 13 said Jesus proclaimed himself to be alive from the dead with many infallible proofs. In Luke's and Kippet, which is the beginning of his narrative, he actually uses the word autoptes in Greek. It's the word. We get autopsy from Paul, John. And there's a fascination too. I want to give people permission on your program to look at the face of Jesus. Yeah, some Christians feel weird about looking at an AI developed image of Jesus. Is this idol worship? No, there is a fascination from nascent Christianity to current with seeing the face of Jesus. First Corinthians 13:12, in that beautiful love chapter, Paul wants to see Jesus face to face. Revelation 22:4. John wants to see Jesus face to face.
- [13:13]
Michael Knowles
I mean, the words of our Lord himself. He who has seen me has seen the Father.
- [13:16]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Exactly, exactly. So it's okay. So I'm looking for evidence for my faith. 1 Corinthians 15. Christianity puts the entire message, the entire worldview to the test. First Corinthians 15:19. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, people should feel sorry for us. But First Corinthians 15:20. This is Saul, Paul. He has risen from the dead. We know this based on the evidence. Then he gives the kirgamma, the appearance tradition, the empty tomb tradition.
- [13:45]
Michael Knowles
When you say that the shroud encompasses the death, burial and resurrection, you have all of this in one event. It strikes me that the shroud in a way kind of unlocks the key to two different religious errors. The error. Well, there are multiple errors in these religions, but for Islam, one of the chief errors is the denial of the crucifixion.
- [14:10]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Right.
- [14:11]
Michael Knowles
They crucified him, not says the Quran. And for Judaism, they deny the resurrection. They don't deny the crucifixion, but they deny the resurrection. And in the Shroud you have evidence and as you're saying, good evidence of both. So then let me just go back to my eight year old self. Yes, which still, and I still, you know, maintain a critical eye toward information that's presented to me, but certainly I did then I was told 1987 or 1988, they radiocarbon tested the shroud and the shroud dates back to the 13th century or something. Like that. So, you know, come on, where'd that come from?
- [14:48]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Absolutely. And it's more fun in the interview if you push back. So. Because otherwise I go on autopilot. So I like this because so many of us, we wake up with an allergy of skepticism every morning, and that's healthy. Again, I want to make sure that I learn from everyone, but no one should think for me. This is why I have a ministry called Christian Thinkers Society. We love God with our heart, soul and mind. So you're asking great questions. 1978 is the STURP project. So the Stratovtren research project. They published their findings in 1983. The Savoy family allows the carbon 14 dating to go forward. I want to also answer quickly, if I may. It does not come under the control of the Holy see himself until 1985, after two years of probate court.
- [15:30]
Michael Knowles
Right.
- [15:30]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
So for evangelicals or Protestants or Greek Orthodox, maybe watching your program, they think, oh, that's just another Catholic relic. Well, it is a relic, it is an artifact. But it's not just a Catholic artifact. That would be anachronistic to say that it does not come under the control of the living pope until 1985.
- [15:49]
Michael Knowles
That's right. It was given as a gift to Pope John Paul ii.
- [15:52]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Exactly.
- [15:52]
Michael Knowles
Pretty recent pope.
- [15:53]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yes, exactly. But yet the Catholic Church hasn't really come out to say, as a matter of fact, this is the Shroud of Turin, or, excuse me, it is the burial cloth of Jesus. So I wanted to answer that. So back to the carbon. So 1988, it's carbon dated. The carbon dating is rife with problems, Michael. And I'm so glad to update your audience with this. The British Library, the British Museum, where I've spent countless equivalent of days, suppressed the raw data of the carbon 14 dating for 29 years. And I was reading the raw data last night to prepare for your show. Cause I gotta be on my A game with Michael Knowles. The raw data is rife with errors. I'm not even sure that one of the labs even tested the pinky of fabric that was cut from the cloth. So if I may, above your left shoulder in the top corner is the pinky size fragment that was cut from the cloth to supposedly be carbon dated. Now, excellent thinkers like Joe Marino have published rebuttals to the carbon 14 dating and they believe that the fragment that was used is contaminated because he claims. I'm quoting Joe Moreno, I like to quote the sources that there's cotton, this is a patched corner. After it survives, the fire of 1532. I mean, it's a miracle we have the Shroud today. It survived three fires. It's been doused with water, so that holds a lot of weight with me. And then we can go down the rabbit trail. Seven labs were supposed to carbon date it, only three did. The man that published it wrote on the chalkboard 1260-390. The gentleman who announced the findings that it was a medieval hoax, he did something that scientists never do. He was anti Catholic. The Carbon 14 data, when it was published, ardent atheists were the editors of the journal. This was an absolute onslaught against the Catholic Church and against people of faith. So if you and I put on the table today all of the evidence that we have in favor the 102 academic disciplines. And by the way, we've dated the shroud in five other ways that are non carbon 14 dating. The only thing a skeptic would hold up and wave and say, oh, it's not authentic, is the carbon 14 dating, which has been proven to be erroneous.
- [18:15]
Michael Knowles
So what are the other ways that we've dated the Shrek?
- [18:17]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
That's fascinating.
- [18:18]
Michael Knowles
I've never even.
- [18:18]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Ready to have your mind blown.
- [18:19]
Michael Knowles
I am.
- [18:20]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
So part of the breaking news that you're aware of is two years ago, wide angle X ray scattering. The Institute of Crystallography in Italy. And I would encourage people, download the Heritage Journal for yourself, read the data for yourself, and then you decide. The Institute of Crystallography, Jewish burial traditions, which I happen to be an expert in. I can talk all day long about Jewish burial traditions. The Gospels get it right. The way Jesus dies, is buried. That's where I'm saying this comes together. We have other burial shrouds. We have other linen burial shrouds from late Second Temple Judaism in the time of Jesus, such as the Shroud of masada, dated to AD 70. The invasion of Titus. Think about that. So this Institute of Crystallography, using a new technology called waxis wide angle X ray scattering, compared the degradation. How long has the shroud been degrading? Based on the Masada shroud. And they showed correspondence, meaning that the shroud, for lack of a better term, has been getting old for 2,000 years. That's just one of the datings. There's another. The lack of vanillin in the flax. So linen comes from the flax. It comes from the flax plant. And there's no vanillin in the linen cloth. One scholar says it takes two to five thousand years for a linen cloth to age. To such an extent that there's no trace of Vanillin in the chemicals. So, you know, we have the Tarkan dress that is from 3000 BC. 3000 years older than the Shroud of Turin. Linen will last forever given the right circumstances. Okay. And so there's no Vanillin, the wide angle X ray scattering. And there's other datings as well that have been widely published. And this is where I bring in my expertise as well, Michael. Carbon 14 dating. 25% of the time is thrown out in scholarship at academic conferences.
- [20:18]
Michael Knowles
Well, there's actually a related case here, which is. Though it also raises questions about the Shroud, which maybe we'll get back to. But the Shroud is not the only burial relic of our Lord. The other one, the other big one is the Sudarium of Oviedo.
- [20:33]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yes.
- [20:34]
Michael Knowles
And this is the head cloth. But I remember reading that the Sudarium of Oviedo does not actually go all the way back to the first century. That actually it's just from the ninth century, according to radiocarbon dating. But what's a real rub for this claim is that we have a definitive history of the Sudarium going back to the sixth century.
- [20:57]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yes.
- [20:57]
Michael Knowles
So we can actually just trace it in documents and in history. So then you say, well, hold on. If the radiocarbon dating was that wrong, and we know with certainty at least until the 6th century, then why do I believe the radiocarbon dating from the 80s, especially when there were all of these other methodological problems with it.
- [21:17]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Exactly. And we've brought the Sudarium, a replica of it for your studio for this program.
- [21:22]
Michael Knowles
Oh, marvelous. Can we.
- [21:23]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Absolutely. Thanks.
- [21:24]
Michael Knowles
Not on set right now.
- [21:26]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
It's coming right now, thanks to my. My good friend, scholar Doug Powell, who has brought his replica for us. This is a replica, and I've never seen this until today. Michael, this is a replica of the Sudarium of Oviedo. And I want you to meet Doug Powell as well. Doug.
- [21:43]
Michael Knowles
Hey, how's it going? Michael, Nice to meet you. Yes, you as well. Thank you.
- [21:46]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Wow.
- [21:46]
Michael Knowles
This is. Who else did you bring back? Yes, we have any other relics? We brought a museum carved.
- [21:53]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
That's right. That's right.
- [21:54]
Michael Knowles
I should have known, though, that if one travels around with a full scale replica of the Shroud of Turin, probably he's gonna be the kind of guy who has the Sudarium of a. So, okay, this is supposed to be the head cloth. My first question, when I even learned about the head cloth, which, you know, was kept separately from the shroud, and, you know, they kind of have made their ways all around the world. Why would Christ's face be on the shroud? Wouldn't it only be on the head cloth? Isn't the fact that Christ's face is on the shroud an argument against the Shroud?
- [22:31]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
It's not. Doug, go right ahead.
- [22:33]
C
Well, if you read John's account of the discovery with the Shroud, they also find the head cloth in a separate place. So there are other cloths than the burial cloth around Jesus. And so the fact that there is a head cloth means there's another cloth. And the fact that there's no face on it means that it wasn't in contact with whatever made the image on the shroud when the image got made. So it's separated at some point. And this is what is believed to be that clothes.
- [23:06]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And what I might add is so when was the cloth wiped, wrapped around his face? Jesus dies at around 3pm on the cross. He's hanging there, he's dead. Jewish sensitivities are such that even the blood that's dripping from the body would want to be collected and not just out on the ground. So that is when they wrap his face with the sudarium, is when he's still on the cross, coming down from the cross, that remains on his face until they bring the body in the tomb where it is taken off and Jesus is wrapped with the shroud. Does that make sense? The time?
- [23:41]
Michael Knowles
That does make sense. I've just never figured it out. That's never been presented to me before. But I suppose that would make sense because then you would also say, well, hold on, if it were just on the whole time or if it was just part of the wrapping, why isn't there a, an image 3D image like there is on the shroud? Why isn't there one on the sidearm?
- [24:02]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And Doug, I wonder if you would talk about the correspondence of the blood type or you already have your mind blown further. Michael, I am.
- [24:08]
C
Okay, well, what you're looking at here is it's oriented. So this particular stain, you can see there's three areas of stains. You have this one, this one and this one. This area right here was in direct contact with a face that matches exactly the face on the shroud. It's a one to one correspondence. And if you line up the nose, if you register the nose, then this kind of concentrated area of blood is right around the mouth and the beard area. And you can see how it kind of hooks around like the beard does. And then this vertical area goes right down the Bridge of the nose. And this would be on the forehead right here. This epsilon shape right here is the edge of this. And then you can see this blood stain corresponds here. And there are a number of other ones. That one corresponds there. And so if you do an overlay, like if you outline this and you put it right onto that, it's an exact match in size. Not just in size, but in blood type as well. First of all, scientists have been able to recreate this stain right here by taking a head, a glass head that is filled with blood mixed with pulmonary edema, which is the fluid that's generated in the lungs during asphyxiation or other kind of torture or duress. And that's the blood. That's the blood mixture that is on here. And that's also the blood mixture that you see in different places on the shroud. Like here. It's six parts blood, pulmonary edema to one part blood. So that's what's coming out of the lungs. And so that's what's coming out of his mouth of the man who had the sudarium wrapped around him. So it matches like that. It's also type ab, which is also the type on the shroud. It's also postmortem blood.
- [26:08]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Right.
- [26:08]
C
And type AB is the rarest blood type. It's about three times more common in Mediterranean Jews than it is in Europeans.
- [26:18]
Michael Knowles
The eucharistic miracles.
- [26:19]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Same.
- [26:20]
Michael Knowles
The type is always ab.
- [26:21]
C
Ab. Pretty amazing. So the idea is that the sudarium was affixed to the back of the head here. And if you look really close, you can see these holes where pins were put through to the hair. There is a ponytail shape funnel right here of his hair. And this is where it would have affixed to. And this butterfly shape fits right onto the ponytail. And then you can see these blood, little pinpoints of blood. Wounds match this exactly. And then it would wrap around the front, so it gets around to the front and makes contact with the face. But it's not wrapped all the way around the head because the face, scientists have figured out is lulled forward and to the right like this. So they can't get it all the way around when he's on the cross. So they double it back and that's what creates that stain. So now it's folded back and they have determined his head was in this position for about 45 minutes to an hour. And then the body is taken down and laid face down with the feet slightly elevated, which causes the blood to go down, up the nose or down the nose and pool onto the forehead, which is what makes that. And he's in that position for 45 minutes to an hour. And so that gives enough time for Joseph of Arimathea to go get permission to bury the body. And then the body flipped face up for about five minutes. And there are actually finger marks where somebody is reached over the back of the head to pinch the nose shut to hold the blood in, as for about. And the body's in that position face up for about five minutes. And so if you've ever been to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, the space between Golgotha and the tomb is more than enough. You know, you can cover that in 90 seconds. And so that's where all the stains. That's how to make sense of the stains here.
- [28:19]
Michael Knowles
So, okay, we know the Sudarium comes from at least the 6th century. No one disputes that it's been in.
- [28:26]
C
Oviedo, Spain since Oviedo was founded at the end of the 8th century. And so it's been in. The documentary evidence is that it enters Spain around 7 11, ahead of the Muslim invasion.
- [28:41]
Michael Knowles
Where was it? Do we know where it was before 7 11?
- [28:44]
C
Well, we did. The documentary evidence actually matches the pollen evidence. And you'll get to the pollen evidence on the Shroud. But there's pollen on both the Shroud and the Sudarium. And the pollen on the Sudarium is from. So Oviedo is in the very northern part of Spain, kind of in the center of the coast, about 15 or 20 miles inland in the mountains of Asturias. So there's pollen from around there. There's pollen from around Toledo, right in the middle of Spain. And then there's pollen from North Africa, probably the area around Alexandria, which is where the documentary evidence says it was after Jerusalem and before Spain. And then there's pollen evidence from Jerusalem.
- [29:28]
Michael Knowles
So all of this, at the very least, we would have to say not only from knowing where it was in the church, but even beforehand, the pollen and the documentary evidence that we're firmly in antiquity.
- [29:40]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [29:41]
Michael Knowles
And call it whatever, you know, whatever. I've read the 6th century, though many people would say, no, it actually goes to the first century. Right. But I guess my point is, if we know for a fact that we can place this in antiquity, and the skeptics of the Shroud of Turin are arguing that it's a medieval forgery, then how do the images match perfectly? Did some medieval forgeries know about the sudarium? Maybe. And then just even if it were possible to create the image through artistic techniques, just manage to match it perfectly without anyone figuring it out.
- [30:21]
C
That's the fascinating thing this may be the key to in the case against the medieval dating of the Shroud. The final piece of the puzzle is connecting these two things, because we know of the existence of this definitely 600 years before the earliest date within the radiocarbon dating. So once we show this correspondence, and it's like I said, it's an exact match, that totally blows apart the idea that the Shroud was created 600 years later.
- [30:53]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And, Michael, I want your audience to appreciate, I know of no other program that has a Shroud museum quality, licensed, authentic replica, along with the sudarium that we're comparing right now that's going to live forever. This is so helpful. I wish when I began learning about the Shroud, I could have seen a video with two Shroud scholars comparing the two. This debunks the carbon 14 dating.
- [31:18]
Michael Knowles
Were you always shroud pilled? For lack of a better word?
- [31:23]
C
No, I was always interested in it. But what I was unsure of was what the credible evidence was for it. And I studied in a master's program under Gary Habermas, who's one of the leading experts in the historical evidence for the resurrection. And one day he just went off talking about the Shroud, and he started listing all of these evidences that I'd never heard before. And so he became my guide into the credible evidence. And Jeremiah is a good friend of Dr. Habermas as well. So he was an early advocate for it. And in fact, one of the members of the STURP team wrote two books with Dr. Habermas, who was not on the Stirp team, as kind of the theological a guide for understanding the scientific evidence. So he goes all the way back to the Stirp team without being on it. And he's been in from the very beginning, so he was an excellent guide.
- [32:20]
Michael Knowles
I do find people who make really strong arguments. Not all the time, but sometimes they started out as real skeptics.
- [32:30]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Absolutely.
- [32:30]
Michael Knowles
You know, and it kind of gives them a bit more zeal. Doug, I'm sorry we don't have a chair for you, but in any case, thank you for coming on and showing us. You're welcome. Who else do you have back there?
- [32:39]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
I know Peter's gonna come out next from Pearly Gates, so be ready. Stay tuned till the end of the broadcast.
- [32:46]
Michael Knowles
So I'm trying to think of any good arguments against this. I mean, I guess there's the general argument against relics and religious artifacts, which is, come on, 2,000 years, like, come on, we don't keep track of things for that long, which is. I know now that I say that that's not a very good argument, but.
- [33:10]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
You'Re catching the zeitgeist of the day. Where I have TikTok theology, I am as dangerous as the last reel that I just saw. And I'm not actually infected with knowledge. I've never actually learned how to think critically about my faith or why I believe anything's true. When you think that the two best sources for Alexander the Great are Arrian and Plutarch writing 400 years later, and nobod, nobody ever questions Alexander the Great. There just seems to be a hyper skepticism about Christianity and Jesus in general that brings out the ire of many people who hate God, they hate Christianity and they hate truth. This is where I love your voice, Michael, because you are a warrior for truth. You teach your audience how to think and then how to converse about what we think in a way that's cogent, effective, persuasive, and doesn't back down. I am concerned about the next generation. And yet we have the greatest evidences of all time at our fingertips. This is where the school of archeology and the points of tangency with archeology and the material culture come. They fit like a hand and a glove with the things that we hold dear from the Christian faith. And yet most people go to Google instead of God's word and they just think that, oh, this is like a myth, like a fairy tale, like the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. There's nothing really persuasive about my faith. I want to be clear. Jesus death by Roman crucifixion, which we're about to look at in a way that very few people have ever seen in your audience. I've had to travel the world to bring these artifacts to your program. Jesus death by Roman crucifixion is the best established fact of the ancient world. If we cannot believe that Jesus died by Roman crucifixion, the only thing on par with that, historically speaking, are the Roman emperors themselves. Let that sink in. And I mean on par with that by the sources that we have for Jesus.
- [35:02]
Michael Knowles
Okay, so then what are the sources? Because I'll hear this. I'll hear things like, I remember before I was totally convinced you'd hear things like there were 500 eyewitnesses to the resurrection, which is now something that I say. But, you know, what's the evidence, right?
- [35:19]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
The evidence is the letter written to the Corinthians by Saul of Tarsus, that no serious scholar doubts that Paul wrote it. I've been to Corinth, where literally the church of Corinth was that Paul's writing to. It's written in the early 80 50s. That tradition, though, rises up within six weeks of the resurrection event itself, which is 20 years prior. You have 11 sources that talk of Jesus death by Roman crucifixion within a historically plausible acceptable timeline of 100 years. So of course, you have the biblical writings, you have Tacitus, you have Suetonius, you have Roman authors talking about this Jesus guy, this Christos. Yes. There's variants in how his name is spelled, of course, Just like there were variants about. There was never a document that didn't have a variant on it.
- [36:05]
Michael Knowles
There are variants in how my name is spelled. I go to Starbucks, it's always on my cup.
- [36:09]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yes.
- [36:09]
Michael Knowles
That's not how I spell it.
- [36:10]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Before the invention of the printing press, there was no carbon copy, photocopy, Xerox source, everything at variance. And so those are taken very seriously by scholars and scholars of every stripe. And then I'm so excited. We can learn a lot from the material culture. I've brought some things that I'd like you to hold, Michael, if I could have your permission, Happily, the first thing that I want you to hold. This is very rare. This is not a reproduction. Don't let this get lost in your pockets. This is the temple tax coin. This is 14 grams. This is a full shekel. This would have paid for the temple tax for two. The temple tax was a half shekel. I want you to hold this. That is Tyrian silver, my friend, dating from the time of Pontius Pilate. In other words, that was in circulation from 26 to 36 AD. If you were a Jew or a God fearer coming to Israel. And by the way, this program is airing at Passover.
- [37:13]
Michael Knowles
Yeah.
- [37:14]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
So this could not be more relevant. You had to change your currency into the temple tax, which was the tyrian silver coin. 14 grams. And Jesus has the whip. He goes and he sees the money changers. And it's just like you and I, we would never change our money in the airport because the rates are always bad. It was that times 100 in the Southern steps of Jerusalem. That right there also, Judas has paid 30 of those.
- [37:45]
Michael Knowles
This is it. This is the coin.
- [37:47]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
That is the Tyrian silver coin. Also, when Jesus performs a miracle and he says, he tells Peter to catch a fish, and there is the temple tax in the fish's mouth. It could have been that One. It's one of that and my Torah scroll are the two most valuable artifacts that we have in our possession of our organization. I wanted you to hold that because coins were the social media of the day. Michael, this is where if I have my triplets with me who are 8 years old, and I'm trying to kind of answer your question about the artifacts. And this shows us that what the scriptures say matter, it really did happen. Had we been there that day, we would have seen them. This is even down to the make.
- [38:26]
Michael Knowles
Believe, like the quotidian details of this coin. It's amazing how well preserved it.
- [38:32]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
I know. That's what makes it exceedingly valuable as well.
- [38:36]
Michael Knowles
I have nickels that aren't as well preserved from like 2004.
- [38:39]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And that's a full shekel at 14 grams. And so if you go to the southern steps today to the Jerusalem Archaeological park, you can hold that in your hand and then imagine in your mind's eye what was happening during Passover that weekend. And all of the factions and cultural fractions helping as well. I have another coin. Hold onto it.
- [38:58]
Michael Knowles
Just keep it over there by you.
- [39:00]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Now, in a hundred years, I can use this coin to prove the resurrection of Jesus from a location standpoint.
- [39:08]
Michael Knowles
Okay.
- [39:09]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
The Holy Sepulcher Church, without a doubt, archeologically speaking, is the place where the edicule is. Inside the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is the very spot where Jesus walked out of the tomb alive. How do we know that? Well, we need to thank Emperor Hadrian. I want you to hold this bronze coin. That's bronze. That was silver. Tyrian silver. This is bronze.
- [39:32]
Michael Knowles
I can tell because it's got, you know, it's a little more.
- [39:34]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And this is also very well preserved patina. Again, not a replica. This is an actual from the second century bronze coin. This is currency. So, Michael, if we time traveled and we went back to the second century, right now it would be a whole different era. And if we're in the city of Jerusalem, we would have to say, Michael. Well, let's get the coins. We got to figure out who the God is. What's this town even called?
- [39:54]
Michael Knowles
Where are we?
- [39:55]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
So the coins teach us so much. Well, guess what? Hadrian, because of his hatred of the Jews, and he saw Christianity as just a Jewish sect, he wipes out Israel during the Jewish uprisings. Remember, there are three great Jewish revolts culminating of course in Bar Kokhba. But prior to that, Hadrian. This is why I never use the word Palestine. Palestine, which is a pejorative term. Against the Jews was coined by Emperor Hadrian, no pun intended. And literally imprinted on that bronze coin is Elia Capitolina. He raises Jerusalem to the ground. He renames it Elea Capitolina, the City of Jupiter. Rather than calling it Jerusalem, he learns of this early venerated site, of this dying rising God that early Christians who he thought were Jews worshiped. And what does he do? He actually demolishes it. He puts a temple to the God Venus and Jupiter at the site of Golgotha and the tomb of Christ of the Resurrection, thereby preserving it for us until helene gets there 200 years later, Constantine's mom. So I can use one coin to prove the Resurrection.
- [41:06]
Michael Knowles
That's called being hoisted with your own petard. I think when you accidentally preserve the.
- [41:10]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Site, because that's another unintended consequences.
- [41:13]
Michael Knowles
We'll have more on the shred of Turin in just a moment. First, though, if you want to get the latest news and if you want to understand what the news actually means, you gotta come check out and subscribe to the Michael Knowles Show. Every weekday at noon Eastern, I take you beneath the surface of daily political events to reveal their historical, philosophical, even religious roots. That's quite fitting given what we're talking about right now. Catch it Monday through Friday, noon Eastern. Now back to Micah. The Shroud of Turin. I've never been to the Holy Land. I've been invited and wanted to go, and then it's.
- [41:48]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
That's cause you need to go with Audrey and me, Michael.
- [41:50]
Michael Knowles
Apparently.
- [41:51]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yeah.
- [41:51]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, Seriously. Well, it's better that than pulling up my Google and trying to see where I'm at. That's right. But I've never known. I've heard conflicting reports as to whether or not the Church of the Holy Sepulcher really is the Holy Sepulcher.
- [42:02]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Well, is it okay if I'm transparent on your show for the audience? I love the Garden tomb. I lead tours there. I take. So for the benefit of our audience, there's two sites. Non Catholics always go to the Garden tomb because everything is magical about it. It's a garden. The tomb is there. You take communion. It's worshipful. But even my good friend who's the director of the Garden Tomb, believes that it happened at the Holy Sepulchre Church.
- [42:25]
Michael Knowles
Wow.
- [42:26]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
The tomb is 800 years older than the time of Christ. It's just too early. And for evangelicals now, this wasn't my. This was not my experience at the Holy Sepulcher Church, but some evangelicals go there and, you know, Michael, if They're not used to the incense and smells and bells, the sincerity of worship. Because, again, six different denominations, it's not just Catholics, six denominations. And I filmed all over the Holy Sepulcher, six denominations vie for control of it. So, I mean, you have a lot of interesting things, worship rituals happening. Everything's right about it. Archeologically, it goes back to the first century. It's limestone. Speaking of that, back to our signature piece. There is a limestone signature from the grottos, as you would call it, of Jerusalem, from the tombs that appears on the Shroud. Doug mentioned the pollen. I just had a friend who became a Christian, 88 years of age, an Ivy League man, by the way, like you.
- [43:26]
Michael Knowles
You're only diminishing his credibility.
- [43:28]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yeah, that's right. An executive, but a thinker. And when he listened to my lecture on just the pollen spores that are found on the Shroud, that bloom only in Israel in the time of Passover, if you're a forger, how are you gonna know that? How are you gonna do that? And so there's pollen, but there's also a specific limestone signature from the soil that's on the Shroud. And guess where it's at. I'm going to try not to choke up at this part. This is so moving to me. Because we know Jesus carries the cross. We know this is the back right here, of the man of the Shroud. There are additional abrasions on the shoulder. Can you imagine being flogged and scourged? You're dehydrated. You have high levels of ferritin, you're experiencing organ failure. Creatinine's off your. Your kidneys are shutting down. You're dehydrated. Then you're asked to carry the cross at least a half mile to golgotha. It weighs 125 pounds. Jesus only weighs maybe 170 pounds and less. After the loss of bodily fluids, he falls to the ground. Michael. And the tradition is that Simon of Cyrene is tasked by the Romans to carry it accordingly. The man of the Shroud. There is soil in the feet, but there's soil all over the knees and then in the tip of the nose. When Jesus falls, carrying the cross for us, he falls face down into the ground. And there's even soil samples at the tip of the nose where he fell. Of course, he has a separated septum, broken nose, all of the. And I'd like to share a little bit more. And I'm just praying right now, even as I'm sharing with this that those that are watching will realize the message of the Shroud, ultimately is God's love for you and me. So we have an anxiety epidemic, as you know. You've covered it. We have a loneliness, suicidal ideation this time of the year, causes many people to reflect. Does God really love me? I mean, how do I know, right? All you have to do is look at the cross and what Jesus went through. St. Paul said in his letter to the Romans, but God demonstrated his love for us. What a demonstration, Michael, you know, such a great.
- [45:41]
Michael Knowles
Because even some people, they don't like to look at the crucifix. Exactly. Or, you know, even, I suppose, the man on the Shroud, this beautiful bronze statue you just gave me, or sculpture, rather. And they say, no, well, you know, Christ came off the cross and then he was resurrected. And so we. But, you know, why would you want to look at the bloodied, tortured body of Christ? But the answer is just as you say, because that's how much he loves you.
- [46:06]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Exactly. It is love in its most radical form. Michael. I could sit here today and tell my wife, oh, I love you so much. But you know what I did before I flew here last night? Total power move. I left a note on the pillow for her about her strong faith. And I got. And how much a book that she's reading by Tom Wright right now about small faith and a great God. And I just said, your faith is magnificent. I express and translate my love to my wife in a way that she knows is unique. How do we know God loves us? He translates his love for us in the cross. And also, there is such a lightweight view of sin today we call it everything but sin, don't we? Oh, that's. Relativism has so permeated our culture, it's become completely dangerous to have any beliefs because, well, that's your truth. We're not gonna say that's wrong. No. Sin disfigures the beautiful face of my Savior.
- [47:01]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [47:02]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
It disfigured his face. Jesus said, and it's quoted in Hebrew, sacrifices and offerings you do not require. But a body you prepared for me. When I look at the body, I think about all he went through and what sin cost God. Sin cost God everything. It cost him his son. We have sons. I have four, you have three. You can imagine you would never love someone enough, even the most righteous person, to allow your son to die. In my place, I want you to hold the replica of the crucifixion nail, nine inches long. This is one of the most Striking features that again, smack of authenticity of the Shroud. In early Christian art, we have the holes in the hands right here in the palms. But actually, of course, for the Greek scholars watching, which there are very few, God bless those of us who are watching. The same word in Greek is hand, palm and wrist.
- [47:56]
Michael Knowles
The wrist, right? Yeah.
- [47:57]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
The Shroud gets it right. Michael, I want you to see the Shroud. You can see the arms that are folded. They come down in a V shape and the penetration is perfectly in the wrists. Because a forger wouldn't have known this. If you crucified someone, he put it through the hands. It's not gonna support it, of course.
- [48:16]
Michael Knowles
Because medieval art, Renaissance art, really, even art today, takes license. Yeah, Takes license and places the wound in the hands. But I remember, even when I was a kid, this was some good catechesis pointed out. You know, really, it's the wrist. If it would have been the hands, it would have just fallen off.
- [48:32]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
That is consistent with the nail prints, the scars, the wrists of the crucified man of the Shroud and the feet.
- [48:43]
Michael Knowles
Wow. I guess this is the recurrent theme is if it were a forgery, this would have had to be. I mean, it's sort of preposterous even to suggest, but it would have had to be the most detail oriented forger ever to get exactly the right dust. And it would have to be a miracle forgery.
- [49:04]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
You have to go buy a lot lottery ticket. Right. If we were that person. And again, it just goes beyond the pale. This is again, how much information is enough to be convinced?
- [49:12]
Michael Knowles
Yeah.
- [49:12]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And we don't stop there. If I may, Michael, please, the flag room.
- [49:17]
Michael Knowles
Flag room, Yeah.
- [49:19]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
I think it's the most understated verse in the New Testament. And Pilate had Jesus flogged. That's all the verse says. This is a Roman flagram. I wouldn't call it a cat of nine tails. That's kind of a modern modernism. This is a Roman scourge.
- [49:39]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, yeah.
- [49:40]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
We know that the crucified man, as scholars counted up the amount of wounds. This is gonna blow your mind. 372 wounds over 120 lashes. Each lash would leave three impressions. You see the lead barbells, the dumbbell shaped bar, and you feel the weight of those.
- [50:00]
Michael Knowles
Yes. So we know that it would have had three.
- [50:05]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Right.
- [50:07]
Michael Knowles
That's kind of fitting, isn't it? You know, the tripartite.
- [50:10]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Exactly.
- [50:11]
Michael Knowles
God.
- [50:11]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
So much of this is interesting.
- [50:12]
Michael Knowles
Or rather the three distinct persons and one divine unity of the Godhead. Yeah.
- [50:17]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
So there's Two executioners as it were, scourging him and Michael in our tour, who is the man of the Shroud that we're doing across the country right now. We have an image. There is not a part of the body of Jesus that was not abused, traumatized, beaten, every aspect, front and back, even in the pelvic region. We don't have the lateral sides in the image. We only have the front and back. And So I estimate 700 wounds from the flagrum alone on the crucified man of the Cross. Even Mel Gibson didn't really come close in the R rated Passion of the Christ. That's how bad it is. I don't think any of us could watch it. So Jesus again, I'm going somewhere with this. As a New Testament scholar, I'm not privileging this because of a religious bias. I am taking this to what I personally know of Jewish burial traditions and Roman crucifixion and execution. No one was crucified the way Jesus was crucified. He's crucified in a particularly heinous, demonic way that makes him utterly unique as our Messiah who dies in our place right now.
- [51:30]
Michael Knowles
Download the Hallow app. What this means is you can join Jeff Cavins and Jonathan Roumie on Hallow for a prayer experience unlike any other. The Holy Week in the Holy Land is an immersive video prayer series where you will walk the sites of Christ's passion, death and resurrection alongside Bible scholar Jeff Cavins and Jonathan Roumie, who portrays Christ in the Chosen. This project was especially meaningful as Jonathan experienced the Holy Land for the first time while preparing to film the crucifixion scenes. You will have the opportunity to pilgrimage with Jonathan and Jeff going deeper in meditation and prayer on the last days of our Lord's sojourn on Earth before the Resurrection. Together you will experience the Sea of Galilee, journey into Jerusalem, visit Caiaphas House, walk the Via Dolorosa, stand at the foot of the Cross at Calvary, and visit the tomb, all while praying alongside scripture in the actual sites where these events occurred. This Holy Week deepen your connection to Christ's passion as you journey with him to the Cross and Resurrection. There is more to look forward to. Stay tuned for exciting new Easter prayers launching Easter Monday to carry you into the joy of the Resurrection. Download Hallow now and get three months for free if you asked Pilate or, you know, some Roman centurion or something. Hey, you know, how come you're crucifying this guy this way, right? Especially After Pilate says, basically, this man's done nothing wrong. And I wipe my hands of it and I don't want my wife's having nightmares. And I don't, you know, by the way, pious tradition. Yes. What tradition says about the nightmare. No, again, this is just tradition. There's no, you know, there's no scriptural basis for this.
- [52:58]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Educate me.
- [52:59]
Michael Knowles
The pious tradition says that. So Pontius Pilate, who, you know, condemns our Lord to death, his wife has problems. I'm having dreams about this man. Don't you know, get washed of this man. And the sacred tradition says that the dream she has is hearing her husband's name chanted in every church in the world for 2000 years during the Creed.
- [53:22]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Wow.
- [53:23]
Michael Knowles
Crucified under Pontius Pilate, suffered death and was buried. Yeah.
- [53:26]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Wow, that gives me chills.
- [53:28]
Michael Knowles
So again, it's a pious tradition, but.
- [53:30]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
I, well, I point this out in body of proof that Jesus wasn't. Why is he crucified? Because these are excellent questions we have to ask critically. What is it about Jesus that caused this particular hatred? Well, sure, there's a demonic influence behind it, without a doubt, but there's also historical influence. Jesus is not the only messianic contender in the first century. I actually list all 10. We have 10 different men who stepped up and said, hey, I'm the Son of God, follow me. In fact, two of them are mentioned in the book of Acts. They have much larger followings than Egypt. Remember the one who went out in the wilderness in Egypt, Another had a following of 4,000. So Jesus, though I believe Pilate, who had a no win job by the way, I mean he just. And he would later get on the outs with Tiberius and die by suicide. So Pilate essentially takes out all of Roman anger on these messianic contenders. In his mind, that would come against the throne. And again, you have a lot of influence from the Essene Dead Sea scroll community at this time as well. Remember, the Dead Sea scrolls prophesied that someday a messianic figure would come, would kill the Katim, the Romans would kill the Roman Empire and then set up rule today right now in the land of Israel.
- [54:47]
Michael Knowles
So one can imagine why Caesar and Pontius Pilate were a little nervous.
- [54:52]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Right, right. These were fighting words. And so Jesus has put down the titulus. Have you seen the titulus in three languages? Iesous Basileus, you die on here. Is Jesus Christ the King of the Jews?
- [55:06]
Michael Knowles
Oh yeah, Jesus Nazarenius Rex Judeorum.
- [55:09]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yes, in Aramaic.
- [55:11]
Michael Knowles
I can't do the other ones. Only the Latin.
- [55:12]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
In Latin. I did the Greek. You did the Latin. Well done. So we just need an Aramaic. Now, do we have any ancient Jews? Coming right out.
- [55:21]
Michael Knowles
We only have young Jews in the building.
- [55:23]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Another thing I would like to point out, with your permission, Michael, is the spear the lance. Doug pointed something out, and I want to make sure it's not lost on the audience. Jesus, of course. Passover is happening. Jesus is on the cross. Pilate is shocked that he was so soon dead, if you recall. And yet, because of Jewish sensitivities, Pilate knows I've got to get these dead bodies off the cross. You know, we've got a. This is a high Sabbath. This is the Passover. This is a major Jewish festival. Everything's at a powder keg. Go break their legs, they go to break the criminal's legs. They don't break Jesus legs because they see he's already dead. But just to make sure. If I may.
- [55:59]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, yeah.
- [56:00]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
I brought this. It was so fun. It was so fun getting this on American Airlines.
- [56:05]
Michael Knowles
I can't bring my Bic life.
- [56:08]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
I want you to hold this. The weight of this spear, it's three and a half centimeters wide. Just to make sure. Again, back to the demonic way Jesus is killed. Just to make sure he's really dead, let's just go ahead and lance him in the heart. And what do we have on the shroud? Jesus is pierced in the side through rib five and six. It goes a few centimeters up, it breaks through to the heart, the chamber around the heart. Blood and water. How would a forger know this? Et cetera comes out. And as Doug pointed out, that blood in the side wound is post mortem blood. So if we wanted to fake it, Michael, let's just kill a guy in the process to make sure we really.
- [56:50]
Michael Knowles
Get the forgery right in order. If you faked it, presumably living blood.
- [56:57]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Exactly.
- [56:57]
Michael Knowles
From a living man.
- [56:58]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Not postmortem blood like this in the sudarium. So are you seeing the trails I'm leaving right now of evidence? I mean, it's hard to fathom. This is why I say I believe in the authenticity of the Shroud, because I'm not irrational.
- [57:12]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, yeah. How much more it's like to those who have faith, no evidence is necessary, and to those without faith, no evidence is enough.
- [57:20]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Right, exactly. And I want to speak to that. And this is where your program is so important. The most dangerous place a person can get is when you stop seeking truth, when you stop learning truth, because you then insert your own truth, which is relativism. Fascinatingly enough, Jesus performs his greatest miracle in the last week. And he goes to Bethany each night during passion week, 1.8 miles from the city center of Jerusalem. I filmed inside the tomb of Lazarus. He performs a miracle in John 11, and he raises Lazarus from the dead. And there are still truth deniers, Jesus deniers, people that hate God, they hate the gospel, they hate truth, they hate salvation, they love Satan and they say, oh no, now we have to kill Lazarus and Jesus. We have to kill them again. Some people are so hardened in their disbelief, no evidence is enough. And that is a dangerous place to be. So one of the outcomes or applications of this interview is we have to ask ourselves, am I still seeking truth? Am I seeking truth? Am I a truth seeker? Or have I created my own truth? Am I foisting on some false narrative on my life? And why do I believe what I believe? These are all very healthy questions. Now, what I'm about to show you, Michael, leaves this question beyond all doubt. Whether or not the man of the shroud is Jesus. If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck, right? The crown of thorns, I was under the impression was some kind of wreath.
- [58:51]
Michael Knowles
Right? It's just a little.
- [58:52]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yeah, just something. Again, just for right or wrong. Influenced by ancient Christian tradition and art mainly. I'm in Jerusalem here I've published 250,000 words on the Resurrection. I thought I had learned everything there was to learn until I saw the crown of thorns. It not only took my breath away, but. Michael, I want you to hold this. And at risk of maiming myself. Yes, but it's worth it. This is the helmet of thorns.
- [59:23]
Michael Knowles
Yes. So I had heard. I remember reading or hearing at some point that actually it's like 3D or not just 3D, but it goes around the whole head, the whole head and.
- [59:35]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Is really like a helmet, like a cap, a helmet. And so what do we see the correspondence with. These are 3 inch Jerusalem thorn, excuse me, Bethlehem thorns. When they dry, they're as sharp as nails. I'm going to say to you what I said to my triplet boys here. Try to prick your finger on the end of one. You can see I just did this crown of thorns, the Gospel of Mark, which is the earliest gospel, it says, and the Romans fashioned a crown of thorns and placed it on his head to humiliate him. This is the king of the Jews. They place this on his head. And what do we see on the Shroud? 50 puncture wounds in the scalp. It would have caused profuse bleeding. And so when he goes etro Homo, the man you can imagine crown of thorns blood stained the scene would have been incomprehensible.
- [60:27]
Michael Knowles
It also just occurs to me, looking at this for people who will find it unfamiliar, that's not what the crown of thorns looks like. This is what an actual crown looks like.
- [60:37]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Exactly.
- [60:38]
Michael Knowles
Actual crowns are not headbands.
- [60:39]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Right.
- [60:39]
Michael Knowles
Have you ever seen, like the crown of St Stephen whatever, you know, a crown in the UK.
- [60:42]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Thank you.
- [60:43]
Michael Knowles
They look like this.
- [60:44]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yes.
- [60:45]
Michael Knowles
They cover your whole head. Huh.
- [60:47]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And isn't that fascinating? This is what leaves it beyond all doubt to me. Speaking from a historical scholar's perspective, it could not be anyone other than Jesus of Nazareth. My friend Bruno Barbaras, who I will be with in just a few weeks in Turin, Italy, has assigned a probability to is this anyone other than Jesus? And he's published his findings. Again, not a preacher, not a priest, he's a mathematician at University of Turin. The probability, the man of the Shroud, according to mathematician Bruno Barbaras, is anyone other than Jesus is 1 in 200 billion. So I guess there's still a chance for the skeptics. Yeah, there is.
- [61:27]
Michael Knowles
You're saying there's a chance, but the connection being that the wounds from this particular crown of thorns match the man of the Shroud in a way that a little laurel wreath or something wouldn't have.
- [61:43]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And leaves it beyond all doubt it's anyone other than Jesus of Nazareth.
- [61:47]
Michael Knowles
Because the other guys didn't get this.
- [61:48]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
No, no one did that. We know. We know of one in history who was crucified. This is one of one utterly unique. And again you come back to the personal application of this is love in its most radical form for us.
- [62:03]
Michael Knowles
That, you know, when you handed it to me, I thought, oh, should I try it? Honestly?
- [62:07]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yeah, exactly, Give it a try.
- [62:08]
Michael Knowles
I prefer not to, if possible.
- [62:10]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And there you go. And I love that. This is the centerpiece of our interview. Yes. Yep. Exactly.
- [62:20]
Michael Knowles
What do you make of the claims of relics of the crown of thorns that go back a long way? Like when Notre Dame de Paris burned down some years ago, a priest ran in because there was said to be a piece of the true crown. Do any of those claims convince you or.
- [62:37]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
No, they don't, because they're unlike the Shroud in that you just can't test it scientifically against anything. And so I'm not discounting it, but this is kind of my skepticism also oozing out of me again in that when you ask me a historical question, I give you historical answer, not a faith answer. I don't privilege it. And so the interesting thing about the Sudarium and the Shroud of Turin is, in the Catholic Church, it is both an artifact and a relic.
- [63:01]
Michael Knowles
Yeah.
- [63:02]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Meaning those are two of two. There are no other relics that can also be scientifically studied.
- [63:08]
Michael Knowles
Interesting.
- [63:09]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yes.
- [63:09]
Michael Knowles
Cause Right, so what you're saying is, you know, like if someone, if you found out someday you get up to the pearly gates, you find out actually the crown, the thorns in Notre Dame, that actually was part of the crown, you'd say, okay, yeah. But what you're saying here is you can know with certainty through natural reason that the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Orviedo are legit Jesus grave clothes. They're actually Christ's grave clothes. Whereas with the other relics, you think, oh, is this a piece of, you know, St. Anthony's bone? Like, maybe, maybe it is. But you just, you just say, I can't test it.
- [63:50]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Right, exactly. And that is the fascinating thing about these two relics, the Sudarium and the Shroud. You test them. It is the moment of resurrection. It's captured in history. Blinding light in Neo laboratories. 34,000 trillion watts of energy in 1/40 of a billionth of a second. Otherwise it would have scorched. I mean, think about that. This is what science can't reproduce is how this flash happened. I speak to young people all the time about the Shroud. It's the equivalent of 6.4 gigawatts. And you and I will remember the greatest movie of all time, 1985's Back to the Future, Doc Brown, 1.21 gigawatts to go back in time. So five times the amount of that energy to bring the body of Jesus back to life, we just can't quantify it, we can't reproduce it. We don't know how it occurred. We just see the effect of it.
- [64:37]
Michael Knowles
Wow, that's an amazing approach to it, because I've come across a number of relics and some, you know, have really undeniable provenance.
- [64:47]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Right.
- [64:48]
Michael Knowles
This is St. John Vianney's heart.
- [64:49]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Right.
- [64:50]
Michael Knowles
It would be hard for them to fake that.
- [64:52]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yes.
- [64:52]
Michael Knowles
Some, though, that go back to antiquity. I believe, as a matter of faith, I believe in the relic and maybe it's got good sort of oral history and provenance to it, but I can't, you know, as you say, I can't really test it. Whereas with something like the Shroud. Shroud. What's the argument against it other than carbon dating. We've talked about the carbon dating thing, which appears to. So what would be the best argument you could make against the Shroud and. Or the Sudarium?
- [65:25]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
I couldn't make a cogent argument academically against the Shroud. I would have to appeal to certain arguments from silence in certain times. That might be the strongest. An argument from silence. Well, we should have more information about this. Why don't we see it appear more. But again, when I understand, when I'm infected with knowledge of history and I understand the miracle it is that before the edict of Milan AD 3, 13, it's a miracle we have any fragments of the New Testament and yet we have 5,000. I began understanding. Wow. It's a miracle that we have what we have. We do in the Christian faith, have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to artifacts. The only thing the skeptic who is YouTube smart or TikTok smart.
- [66:12]
Michael Knowles
It's a good phrase. I've never. YouTube's smart.
- [66:14]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yeah. The only thing they'll wave in our face is this erroneous carbon 14 dating. And we don't use that in biblical scholarship. We don't use that to date anything because it destroys the sample. It destroys it. So my prayer is that ongoing research will be done. But I have enough to be convinced that I wouldn't be sitting here today in your beautiful studio if I didn't think this was the grave clothes of Jesus, if I didn't think the Sudarium was authentic. When you look at the blood type, type AB blood, if there was ever a priestly bloodline, it would be Semitic blood. That less than 3% of the world's population has type AB blood. When you think of Max Fry spending five years of his life studying the pollen spores, and they're like breadcrumbs on the Shroud. As I already mentioned, they only bloom in springtime. But there's also pollen that traces the antiquity of the Shroud, that antedates the carbon 14 dating. We have pollen in the Shroud from Edessa, where it appears in the early Byzantine time, the 7th 6th century. We have pollen from Constantinople, where it was again, it seems to always be advancing and escaping the Muslim invasions, the caliphates, and then into Greece. We have it, we believe, in Athens. Then pollen, of course, from France, and then ultimately in Turin. Now, why this program is so important today, what we're talking, I don't know if you're aware, the Catholic Church held a press conference in the last few days and the Shroud will not be on display this year for the Jubilee.
- [67:42]
Michael Knowles
I'm going to Italy this year, so it better be on display.
- [67:44]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Exactly. I certainly want to be Archbishop of Turin. It's not going to be on display. They're doing a virtual thing and it hasn't been on display since 2015 publicly.
- [67:54]
Michael Knowles
I wonder the first place my mind went. And maybe it's because you just mentioned the Muslim invasions. Are they afraid of some kind of attack?
- [68:02]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Obviously, and they're wanting to preserve it. There is some concern, Michael, that the image is vanishing, that the image is going away. We don't know that the image will always be there again. It's razor thin, 0.2 microns. You know, it's superficial, the image itself. So there is. This is as close as we're going to get to the Shroud on the Michael Knowles Michael Ann podcast. And what's fascinating about it, too. Do you have your phone with you, by chance?
- [68:32]
Michael Knowles
Yes, I do.
- [68:33]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
I want you to do an exercise on camera with me, if you don't mind.
- [68:35]
Michael Knowles
Okay.
- [68:36]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Open up settings. We can't help the Android people that are watching. You want color inversion settings, click on Accessibility. Find Accessibility should be near the top.
- [68:47]
Michael Knowles
Accessibility.
- [68:48]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And then click Display and text.
- [68:50]
Michael Knowles
Display and Text.
- [68:51]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And then scroll down to Classic invert. You can do this at home watching the Michael Lamb show. Do you have. Now open your camera. Ooh, Michael.
- [68:59]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, I look trippy, man.
- [69:01]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Look at the shroud and you're gonna see what Secondo Pia saw. Look at the face of the shroud right here.
- [69:09]
Michael Knowles
Oh, man.
- [69:13]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
I'm going to take a picture and you can trace the entire body. You're going to go down to the crown. You can go to the face, the chest, but go down to the nail prints in the wrist. You'll see the abrasions on the arm. You're seeing what Secondo Piasson, 1898 in the dark room, where his two exposures took 14 minutes and 20 minutes on glass plates. And he never. More appropriately, Michael uttered the following three words when he saw the oh, my God.
- [69:42]
Michael Knowles
Not in vain. Not in vain. Wow.
- [69:45]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
So you're seeing what you believe is the negative, Michael, but it's really the photo positive, Right? Right. And I want you to look at.
- [69:52]
Michael Knowles
The pictures because you can just see. I mean, may I please? Yeah.
- [69:56]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Do you see the hair?
- [69:57]
Michael Knowles
Am I going to see your skeleton?
- [69:58]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yes. Do you see the hair?
- [70:00]
Michael Knowles
Yeah.
- [70:01]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
This is really cool. Revelation, chapter 1, verse 14, says that Jesus hair is white like wool, and the resurrected man of the shroud has white hair. Just like Revelation chapter 1 says, Jesus in all his glory. You can do this with your boys. If you see the Shroud even on the computer screen, you could invert their tablets if they have one, and you can have them see this. And by the way, while you have it in classic invert and it's color inversion for the androids, you can see the back, you can see the abrasions on the shoulders that go at a diagonal shape down to the left shoulder. You can see all the whipping. The blood really pops out, especially the post mortem blood. And again, you're seeing it. It's like you have X ray vision right now. And this is the powerful part that kicked off modern scientific exploration of the shroud. You say JJ, when did the research begin? It began with second Opie in 1898 when this photo came out. And then more higher resolution for their time, the honor 1930s photos came out. And that's what C.S. lewis has in his bedroom.
- [71:07]
Michael Knowles
You know, I love these little winks of Providence. This might be a little bit of a bigger wink of Providence that when you mention something like his white hair, that that's a little wink, you know, what does that mean? You know, the Christian view is so rich in symbols and that you say, better believe it, you know, and even the notion that one would not be able to decipher the shroud for 1800 plus years until photography is invented, it's.
- [71:36]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Like God knew this would happen in the future. He knows eternity. Almost as if a controlled, I'm calling it now, a controlled revelation tied to technology. As we get closer to the second coming of Jesus Christ, we're getting closer every day. And we shouldn't be surprised by, based on the archeology, if the resurrection of Jesus really happened, and we believe it did with all our hearts, there should be evidence like this.
- [72:00]
Michael Knowles
Of course. Of course. Yeah. And how do you fake it?
- [72:06]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yeah. And the cool thing for your audience is I know of no other program that has all the artifacts, the sudarium and the Shroud all in one show in one sitting. So my prayer is that this broadcast will be used for years to come to set the record straight on the Shroud.
- [72:22]
Michael Knowles
So I have a Jewish friend who I try to have at least a few of those. A Jewish friend of mine says that the way in which the man of the shroud is buried is not how a Jew of the first century would have been buried. And I don't know, you gotta ask him how he thinks would be buried. But from your historical understanding, does that hold Any weight or.
- [72:47]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
No, no. Jesus is buried according properly, not honorably, but properly, according to Jewish burial traditions. He's buried by two members of the Sanhedrin. According to the Mishnah. If the Sanhedrin condemned a criminal to death, it was the Sanhedrin's responsibility to bury them. What do we see in the eyewitness testimony embedded in the Gospels? Two members of the Sanhedrin request the body of Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus. So they're following Jewish burial traditions. I would actually quote a friend, an atheist friend, an atheist Jewish archeologist by the name of Jody Magnus, who I quote in Body of Proof. She's an atheist, she's an archaeologist, she's Jewish, and she says the Gospels get it right. According to Jesus burial traditions. They get it completely right. Jesus is buried in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb. The body is placed in a burial shroud. We have the shroud at Masada. We have the man of the shroud that was discovered actually buried with a individual who died, who had Hansen's disease. You know, the Jesus deniers said the New Testament was wrong, that there was no such thing as leprosy. And then they found the tomb of the Shroud in the old City of Jerusalem, and it was airtight when it was discovered by James Tabor. And what's fascinating, there was still flesh on the linen garments, on the linen burial clothes showing that the person had died of leprosy. So I would just kindly respond to your friend that they need to read up a little bit more in Jewish burial traditions.
- [74:17]
Michael Knowles
I won't be that kind. I'll be actually very blunt.
- [74:21]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
You couldn't be more wrong.
- [74:23]
Michael Knowles
My same Jewish friend, he objects to the shroud because he says that Gospel of St. John describes our Lord as being wrapped in strips of linen and that the burial tradition would have involved strips of linen, not a single cloth. So what do you say to that?
- [74:38]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Well, I would open my Greek New Testament again very kindly with your friend. And I would say there are three. My wife helps me be kind. It's one of my New Year's resolutions. I would show him that athonia in Greek, which is fine linen, is used in the singular and plural in each all four of the Gospel accounts. Sindon is used in sudarium. Those are the three Greek terms used to describe the linen garments that Jesus is buried in. The Sinden Michael, for your Jewish friend, is like a pita that wraps the body. It is the complete cloth from back to front that wraps over the body. The linen strips would then wrap around horizontally, keeping the feet together, the hands together, and then sometimes even a jaw band, because you don't want to look like this when you die. And again, that is consistent with the burial traditions with Lazarus. So there is no contradiction between what we see with the shroud and the Athonia in singular and plural in the New Testament, Sindon and Sudaria. Does that make that clear? It covers the arms, it covers the feet, and it keeps the body together. When the body begins to decompose, it doesn't fall off the shelf, et cetera.
- [75:51]
Michael Knowles
Right. No, that does make sense also, because there were just random strips of linen. I don't know. You'd have, like, flesh peeking out.
- [75:57]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
You would. And the Jews did not practice mummification. Okay. They practiced burying in a shroud.
- [76:03]
Michael Knowles
Yeah. Cause he'd also said to me as he was preparing me for all of my skepticism about the shroud, he said, well, they just wouldn't have had time between, you know, they take him off the cross at 3pm they gotta get ready for the festivities of the evening. So they wouldn't have. But I thought, how long does it take to wrap someone in a shroud?
- [76:21]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
About one minute.
- [76:23]
Michael Knowles
You're right.
- [76:23]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yeah. And Jesus is only buried 200ft. Remember Joseph of Arimathea? His plot, as it were? His tomb, which was hewn into a rock quarry, where I filmed at the edicule, was on the main entrance in and out of town. A lot of people, too, doubt the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, because they forget that Agrippa extended the walls of the city, the Old City of Jerusalem, in AD 44. So it would have been outside the city where Jesus was crucified. In Golgotha, overlooking the quarry, it's only 200ft from where he was crucified. So we can walk 200ft, wrap a body in a shroud, and then I would remind your friend, they would also have to become ceremonially clean themselves. They would have had to visit a before sundown. So, yes, they did it in haste, but it doesn't mean that they didn't wrap the body properly.
- [77:10]
Michael Knowles
One of the notable features of the image, it's not just that it's photo negative, but that it seems to. I've at least heard, I don't really know the evidence for this, that it's like three dimensional.
- [77:24]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Correct.
- [77:25]
Michael Knowles
How's that?
- [77:26]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Michael, you're hitting a very fascinating aspect. In fact, the question you're asking right now is what gave rise in 1976 to the 1978 Shroud of Terrain Research Project. 2 Air Force Academy professors, physicist Eric Jumper and John Jackson, they're at the Air Force Academy's professors. They have a VP8 image analyzer. You can look this up on YouTube and see how a VP8 image analyzer works. It was designed by NASA to study the topography of surfaces of planets. They take an image of the Shroud and They use the VP8 image analyzer to analyze the Shroud. And they begin to notice there is a topography. There is 3D information encoded in the linen shroud that when you look at it, you see the face of Jesus pop out in a 3D way. The man of the Shroud. And nothing else did that. When they put pictures of their children through the VP8 image analyzer, they're just marred and sloppy and there's no definition. But when you again put the shroud back in, there's 3D information. And that 3D information is what kicked off the scientific studies in 1978 that went on to prove that the Shroud is not a man made work of art. There's no pigment, there's no dye, there's no paint. They can't explain how the image is there, but they know it's not man made. The VP8 images analyzer is fascinating.
- [78:53]
Michael Knowles
You know, I'm a mackerel snapping papist, so I'm not concerned about religious imagery. But some of my more puritan friends are, my more iconoclastic friends are. And they might say, they might say that that's a violation.
- [79:09]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Absolutely. This is. I've toured with the Shroud around the world and this is a huge question. It's one of the main reasons that Protestants are anti Shroud. They view it as a violation of the second commandment. Let's update the audience. The second commandment says that you shall not worship any image. That's the good King James version. A graven image, by definition in the Hebrew is a man made image. You create something and then you begin worshiping it. In all the years that I've been studying the Shroud now, I've never seen anyone worship the Shroud. I've seen them kneel around it and pray. They're not praying to this as an object. It is a reflection of Jesus that is enhancing their faith and their understanding of the gospel. Much like when you and your wife go to Israel with me, it will enhance your understanding of the gospel to walk in the very footsteps of Jesus. It will again show the credibility of the Scriptures. These are real people, real Places, real events. We can't say that enough, especially modernity. In our postmodern era, these events really occur. And so it is not a violation of the graven image command, because think about Peter and John. They would have been more sensitive to it than you and me.
- [80:22]
Michael Knowles
They're Jews, right?
- [80:24]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And yet they see this shroud and then they believe it wasn't a graven image. It smacked of the authenticity. And so many people in our audience, there were Thomases, and we don't want to put them down either, because they desire evidence. Yeah, yeah. They're like, hey, Thomas wasn't there. Can you imagine the first Sunday when Jesus appears? He's mia.
- [80:44]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, yeah. And by the way, in Thomas defense, you know, when our Lord says that he's gonna go die in Jerusalem.
- [80:51]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yeah, he's gone. St. Thomas says, that's gonna go. That's right. He was ready to. And yet none of the disciples, and I point this out on Body of Proof, expected the Messiah to die the way he did, let alone rise from the dead. Isaiah 53. And we see that interpretation today, but that was not a widely held interpretation in the time of nascent Christianity or the Judaism of the first century. And what do we see with Thomas? He says, unless I see the nail prints.
- [81:17]
Michael Knowles
Yeah.
- [81:18]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Unless I see the side. What I love about Jesus. And it gives us hope because we wake up with this allergic reaction of skepticism every day. Jesus doesn't shame Thomas for his doubts, he sharpens him. And he says, thomas, don't be doubting. But bro, check it out. Check out my side. Check out my wrist in Thomas in Greek, Ha theos ha kurios. My God, my Lord, my Lord and my God.
- [81:42]
Michael Knowles
This is the background of my iPad. Is the Caravaggio Doubting Thomas?
- [81:48]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yes.
- [81:49]
Michael Knowles
He's got his eyes wide open.
- [81:50]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And you need to touch the shroud before you leave, Michael.
- [81:53]
Michael Knowles
Happily, yes. One time I was on a show, I was on Tim Pool's show actually, and someone said, what do you. What do you think Jesus looked like? You know, was he this color that. He said, we know he looked. And they described some like, modern Arab trader or something. You know, I was like, no, I actually think he looks like the guy on the shroud to me. I think he looks actually exactly like the guy on the shroud. But so what is, what does the guy on the shroud look like?
- [82:20]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
He looks like a Jewish man from the first century. Five foot, 11 inches, 170 pounds. He would have had a long beard. He would have taken the vow of the Nazirites So we estimate that his beard grew 21 inches during his three and a half year ministry. He had a long beard. Might have even come down to here. The beard is plucked. Some Shroud deniers take an ultra listic wooden exegesis from Isaiah that he was beyond recognition. His beard was plucked, meaning that it would look like mine clean shaven. That is not the force of the Hebrew applied plucked beard. I used to have a beard before it all went gray when I had triplets, Michael. So I used to have a nice full beard. And I remember those babies of mine, if they would even pull one hair, one whisker out, it killed. And yet there is this inverted V of Jesus beard, the man of the Shroud, the face of the shroud being plucked from the front. And so again, that doesn't mean he's clean shaven as we are right now. It just means that there were aspects of his beard that were plucked. And again, showing correspondence. He has long hair again. Nazarite vow. Others will erroneously bring up 1 Corinthians 11, a man shouldn't have long hair, which Paul wrote to the Corinthian Church. And we forget that we have to see Jesus through the eyes of the first century. He's a Jewish man. He is a man of his time in Judaica. Of course he would have had long hair. Of course his beard would have grown. He would have looked like many of the other rabbis of his era.
- [83:46]
Michael Knowles
Because I guess, because there will be. There are right now watching this show, people who say, yeah, but you know, I don't know, it's a little. It's just I would have to believe things that I don't want to believe necessarily.
- [84:04]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Right.
- [84:04]
Michael Knowles
If this is true, then I would have to believe that a man was resurrected. A man who claimed to be God was resurrected. And I would have to believe that Christianity is true if this is real.
- [84:19]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Exactly.
- [84:19]
Michael Knowles
And I'm just not willing to go there. And so I guess what I would ask that person who I know is watching right now is. Okay, I get it. You don't want your whole view of everything to be changed and improved immensely.
- [84:32]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yes. And worldview upgrade.
- [84:34]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, worldview upgrade to the truth. But okay, I get it, I get that that's very disoriented, but what's your explanation? Right, I'm all ears. Give me. I'm all ears. I was a big skeptic for like a decade. I'm all ears. Haven't heard a good one.
- [84:56]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And that's a profound question because what are the implications Michael, since the resurrection happened, well, it validates everything Jesus taught. We've already said we have aspects of 26 days of the life of Jesus recorded in the 89 Gospels. His teaching changes the world. The Christian movement becomes the greatest force for good on planet Earth, which is fascinating. Just the blessing that the Christian faith has been to women. In the early church movement, The Christianity is 2/3 female by 80, 80, 50 years after the resurrection, Christianity's closest competitor was the cult of men, Mithra, which was a male only cult, very popular in the Roman legions. Christianity, you already quoted Galatians 3:28. There's neither Jew nor gentile, slave nor free, male nor female. We're all one in Christ Jesus. This message shook the Roman Empire. This message of unity and freedom in Jesus Christ and this whole notion that God loved us. We hear a passage like John 3:16 for God to live the world and we think, oh, I've heard that. Or you know, we see it at football games, whatever. That was a message no one had ever heard in the first century before that God loved someone. The Roman deities were capricious, they were vindictive. They were a lot like us. We made those Roman deities in our own image. We like to get back at people, we like to play games with people. But this God of the Bible comes along and he treats Jesus Christ as if he lived our lives so that he could treat us as if we lived Jesus life. That's the beauty of the gospel. And Michael, if it sounds too good to be true, you're beginning to understand what grace really is.
- [86:28]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. And you know, if it sounds too good to be true, look at the evidence.
- [86:34]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Exactly.
- [86:34]
Michael Knowles
You know, I get it. It does sound too good to be true. Maybe. But you know, it means too, it goes even deeper. Well, it goes sort of endlessly deep. But if the Shroud is real, it vindicates the teachings of Christ, as you.
- [86:51]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Say, validates them in every way on everything.
- [86:55]
Michael Knowles
It means everything. It means the things that you. It means the parable of the talents that you have trouble understanding.
- [86:59]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
The Good Samaritan.
- [87:00]
Michael Knowles
It means the Good Samaritan who is my neighbor. Yeah. It means hell and the possibility of going to hell.
- [87:08]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Right.
- [87:08]
Michael Knowles
It means grace and redemption. It means how we cooperate with God's grace. It means everything he told us, even the really hard sayings. You know, probably the best example of it, when our Lord says, my flesh is true food, and whoever does not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood has no life in Him. And the Jews debate among themselves and they don't like it. And then a bunch of the disciples don't like it and they go away. And then our lord turns to St. Peter and he says, you don't go away. And he says, lord, to whom shall we go?
- [87:41]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Where do we go?
- [87:41]
Michael Knowles
Where would we go?
- [87:42]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
You have the words of life, whom would we see?
- [87:44]
Michael Knowles
And but you gotta kinda put yourself in the shoes of the Jews and the disciples who. That is a hard saying. And our Lord says, this is a hard saying. But if. And it's not. I mean again, I'm not in any way trying to make an idol out of the shroud. I'm trying to take the shroud on the evidence that is presented to me using my natural reason, at least at first. But you know, the natural evidence is pretty good and so based. If that's true, that's hard saying is true too. And you have to believe that hard saying.
- [88:18]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
You have to reckon with it. And here's the thing about truth, why I love your program. Truth has to make us miserable before it sets us free. John A. You will know the truth and the truth will set you free, but the truth will make you miserable. And this is true in life. I've been on a weight loss program and the truth of me needing to be.
- [88:35]
Michael Knowles
I've been on a weight gaining program.
- [88:36]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yeah, actually I've been on the. I had triplets and I enjoy eating the cred they. But the truth of my doctor made me miserable at first. You need to lose weight. You're gonna take 10 years off your life if you don't get it. So how much more should spiritual truth first make us miserable before it sets us free? And that's what people have to grapple with. Yes, it might make you miserable for a moment and then it will set you free. Jesus says, I am the way, the truth and the life. No one that is the definite article in English and I understand Latin doesn't have a definite article. But I am the way, the truth and the life. You cannot have peace with God and know truth. Truth is personified. I spell truth J, E S U S through Jesus. That is the worldview. I see truth now.
- [89:18]
Michael Knowles
And no one comes to the Father except through him, except through Jesus. You have to if you.
- [89:21]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
It is an exclusive claim.
- [89:23]
Michael Knowles
Yeah. If you are convinced by this evidence and I mean we were talking about AB Blood.
- [89:31]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Yes.
- [89:32]
Michael Knowles
The There are. For people who read about these things maybe in the paper there are sometimes claims of miracles, Eucharistic miracles in particular. And Sometimes it's like fungus or something. Sometimes there's a totally natural explanation. And it's not blood. It was like a red kind of mold or. Okay, that can be the case on an unconsecrated host or who knows? But sometimes they test the host, the consecrated host, and sometimes it's blood and cardiac tissue.
- [90:03]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Exactly.
- [90:03]
Michael Knowles
And what's really. It shouldn't be shocking, I guess, but it's always ab. Blood from a man from the Middle East.
- [90:15]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Right.
- [90:16]
Michael Knowles
Every time.
- [90:16]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
You can't fake that. And who would know that before with these eucharistic miracles? Also, to quote my good friend, Craig Keener, dear friend, he's the one who helped inspire me to write Body Approved. He wrote a two volume work on miracles. There's been more documented miracles since 1975 than the previous thousand years combined. Again, back to this controlled revelation as we. And this is a classicist writing his two volume work on miracles, Craig Keener, Miracles are happening. Now, what do I think about the Shroud? I think the Shroud is a natural effect of a supernatural event.
- [90:49]
Michael Knowles
Yes.
- [90:50]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
A moment of resurrection. I think it's just simply a natural effect of this.
- [90:53]
Michael Knowles
Right. Because I almost wanted to correct or have a caveat in what I was saying when I said it's natural. Because everything I'm inferring from the Shroud is natural. But a person emitting this unfathomable amount of light at the moment of his resurrection in the body is. There's a supernatural aspect to that.
- [91:16]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Absolutely. And this is the, and the interesting thing about the light, the light emanates from the entire body, not just the heart or the face or the head. The bolt comes from the entire body. That's why you have this contiguous image.
- [91:27]
Michael Knowles
Yeah. You've left me basically speechless, which is very rare. It's very rare. It's the title of my book, the only book I have with words. But one simply has to. And I suspect this will be the case for people watching this. Even those who are shroud pilled, who have, as I was, every single new fact you learn. This happens to me sometimes, certainly since my reversion a lot where something happens, you know, some coincidence, some little wink from heaven, sometimes a little more. Shake your shoulders from heaven and you are struck with the reminder that, oh, right, it's all real.
- [92:11]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
That's right.
- [92:12]
Michael Knowles
Oh, right. But even I, I go to church on Sunday. I try to confess my sins sometimes. I'm a little slow on that. I say my prayers, I, you know, I really believe in it. I assent to it. With my intellect, you know, I really do believe in it. And yet sometimes you just confront some evidence or something happens. You say, oh, oh, yeah, I forgot. It's all real.
- [92:36]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
That's right. Right.
- [92:37]
Michael Knowles
Well.
- [92:38]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
And you know what? You're in good company saying that, Michael, because even Paul in his mountain peak passage of 1 Corinthians 15, where he talks about the evidence for the physical, bodily resurrection of Jesus. It's the most respected chapter in the 260 chapters in the New Testament by scholars. He begins chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians saying, Now I want to remind you, brothers and sisters, of the gospel that I preach to you, in which you believe and in which you stand. And then he gives the kirgamma that Christ died for our sins according to the scripture, that he was buried and that he rose again on the third day according to scripture, and that he was seen and he goes into the appearance tradition. We all need reminders. We're so forgetful of the great price that Jesus paid for us. And the beauty of this broadcast today is it brings living hope to us. Hope has a name. It's Jesus. But it is a living hope. It's a hope that, according to scripture, is an undying hope. It's a hope that never fades. 1 Peter 1:3, 1 Peter 1:3 says that blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with a living hope because of the fact of Jesus resurrection. So, you know, this Easter season, as people are watching this, this may be their first Easter season without a loved one. Maybe they've buried a child. And the beauty is we can talk about our loved ones who have died in Christ. We can speak of them in the present test. They're more alive today than they've ever been before. This is why I love your program, that we've had time to get to the implications. The implications are what Paul wrote to the church at Thessaloniki where I was just at recently. Yes, we grieve for our dead, but we don't grieve as one without hope. Because Christ died for our sins and rose again. We will see them someday. So, yes, we can grieve, but we grieve in hope.
- [94:20]
Michael Knowles
I like that too. Because, yeah, we don't have to not be human. Like we don't have to be slappy happy idiots.
- [94:27]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Exactly. You can grieve. Jesus wept for Lazarus, knowing he was going to raise him from the dead. Death was never part of God's original creation. For us, it was a disruption.
- [94:43]
Michael Knowles
The implications. Part of it is that's the reminder. Maybe I'll have to put that on repeat for myself when I go back to this. Because think, like, if you just look at it and say, huh, wow. Okay, I'm persuaded by this route. Pretty wacky, huh? Boy, that's pretty. No, but do you know what that means, Michael?
- [95:04]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
It means that there was a moment on the cross. We don't know when exactly, but you were on his mind. Your sin was there, and he did it loving you. And if you were the only one who ever believed, nothing would change. He still would have gone through it all. That's the beauty of grace.
- [95:23]
Michael Knowles
Jeremiah, thank you for. I gotta demand more of my guests now. You've really raised the bar on bringing the goods. You brought the goods, Jeremiah. Thank you very much.
- [95:34]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
You're a scholar and a gentleman, sir.
- [95:36]
Michael Knowles
You as well, I think. Probably a little more so than me. What did you say? 95,000 words?
- [95:43]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
93,000.
- [95:44]
Michael Knowles
I don't want to oversee one of my books. Doesn't have any ones. This book, Body of proof. The seven best reasons to believe in the resurrection of Jesus and why it matters today.
- [95:53]
Dr. Jeremiah Johnston
Go get it.
- [95:55]
Michael Knowles
Happy Easter.