Mummies and Abduction: Michael & The Rogue Archaeologist | Tim Alberino

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Mummies and Abduction: Michael & The Rogue Archaeologist | Tim Alberino"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Michael Knowles Show
• Host/Author: The Daily Wire
• Episode: Mummies and Abduction: Michael & The Rogue Archaeologist | Tim Alberino
• Release Date: May 31, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Michael Knowles Show, host Michael Knowles engages in a profound discussion with Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Timothy Alberino, delving into the enigmatic world of ancient mummies and modern alien abductions. The conversation seamlessly weaves together archaeological mysteries, genetic anomalies, and extraterrestrial theories, offering listeners a thought-provoking exploration of topics that straddle the line between science and the paranormal.

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Discovery in Peru: The Nazca Tridactyl Beings [00:43 - 07:17]

The episode opens with Dr. Peterson discussing his intuition about hidden structures beneath a pyramid in Peru. He introduces the Nazca tridactyl beings—desiccated corpses with three fingers, elongated skulls, and other unusual features discovered near the famous Nazca Lines in 2015.

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson [00:09]: "I had this intuition there's something under that pyramid in Peru. These three fingered tridactyl beings, the largest, most bizarre elongated skulls."

Timothy Alberino expresses skepticism but is intrigued by Peterson's findings.

Timothy Alberino [00:43]: "Sounds crazy."

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Analysis of the Mummies: Genetic Anomalies and Physical Evidence [07:14 - 32:03]

Dr. Peterson provides an in-depth analysis of the mummies, distinguishing between smaller effigy-like figures and larger, more anatomically anomalous specimens. He highlights that some mummies exhibit natural cranial elongation, suggesting genetic deviations rather than purely artificial modifications.

Dr. Peterson [14:04]: "Some skulls... some of that elongation is actually the result of a genetic deviation or genetic anomaly in the human genome."

Key findings include:

• DNA Analysis: 30% human DNA, 70% anomalous, with traces of chimpanzee and bonobo DNA.
• Physical Features: Horizontal fingerprints, three long fingers and toes, increased cranial capacity, and oversized orbital sockets.
• Preservation Conditions: The arid Nazca desert environment has naturally preserved these corpses for centuries.

Dr. Peterson [30:37]: "The fingerprints on these things are horizontal. They have fingerprints and they're horizontal. They're not circular like our fingerprints."

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Controversy and Government Intervention [32:03 - 42:03]

The conversation shifts to the controversy surrounding the mummies, involving Peruvian authorities and international interest. Dr. Peterson recounts how attempts to debunk the mummies led to heightened scrutiny and claims of government suppression.

Dr. Peterson [37:23]: "The Ministry of Culture actually dissected these things and determined very quickly that they're fake because they found synthetic components."

However, these findings were isolated to the smaller effigies, not the larger mummies, which remain unproven as hoaxes.

Dr. Peterson [33:54]: "All of the scientific teams... have not found any definitive proof of a hoax."

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Alien Abductions and Hybridization Theories [42:03 - 106:14]

The discussion transitions to the phenomenon of alien abductions, with Dr. Peterson presenting it as a credible area of study backed by physical evidence such as implants and unexplained scars. He introduces the "crypto terrestrial hypothesis," suggesting the existence of a subterranean non-human species engaging in hybridization with humans.

Dr. Peterson [54:11]: "The crypto terrestrial hypothesis posits that there are intelligent non human beings who have been co-inhabiting planet Earth, albeit covertly, with the human species for thousands of years."

Key points include:

• Abduction Phenomenon: Described as a widespread and consistent experience across different cultures and time periods.
• Physical Evidence: Implants made of nanotechnology, evasive movement within the body, and unexplained medical conditions post-abduction.
• Hybridization Goal: Creating alien-human hybrids to integrate into human society for "planetary acquisition."

Dr. Peterson [104:31]: "The ultimate objective is what he calls planetary acquisition. Which is a fancy way of saying they're here to take over."

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Historical and Religious Implications [106:14 - 124:13]

Linking the discussion to biblical narratives, Dr. Peterson interprets the Book of Genesis and other scriptures as describing interactions between humans and pre-existing "sons of God," leading to the creation of giants or Nephilim. He connects these stories to archaeological findings of giant skeletons and megalithic structures.

Dr. Peterson [127:11]: "And so those giants are the direct relatives of the original ones that were produced through the union of angels and humans, the sons of God and the daughters of men."

He also touches upon how these myths are pervasive across various cultures, suggesting a universal truth behind them.

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Conclusion and Future Exploration

As the episode draws to a close, Knowles and Dr. Peterson acknowledge the depth and complexity of these topics, hinting at further exploration in future episodes. Dr. Peterson emphasizes the need for continued research and open-mindedness in uncovering the mysteries that intertwine human history with potential extraterrestrial interactions.

Timothy Alberino [149:43]: "I've got a lot more stories about giants, so that's. We'll have to do part three."

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Notable Quotes

• Dr. Jordan B. Peterson [00:09]: "I had this intuition there's something under that pyramid in Peru."
• Dr. Peterson [14:04]: "Some of that elongation is actually the result of a genetic deviation or genetic anomaly in the human genome."
• Dr. Peterson [30:37]: "The fingerprints on these things are horizontal. They have fingerprints and they're horizontal."
• Dr. Peterson [54:11]: "The crypto terrestrial hypothesis posits that there are intelligent non human beings co-inhabiting Earth covertly."
• Dr. Peterson [127:11]: "Those giants are the direct relatives of the original ones produced through the union of angels and humans."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Michael Knowles Show navigates through a labyrinth of ancient mysteries and modern conspiracies, presenting a narrative that challenges conventional understanding of human history and our place in the cosmos. Whether one subscribes to these theories or remains skeptical, the conversation undeniably sparks curiosity and invites listeners to ponder the unknown.

Transcript

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

This is Dr. Jordan B. Peterson.

[Timothy Alberino]

Watch Parenting.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Available exclusively on Daily Wire.

[Timothy Alberino]

Plus, we're dealing with misbehaviors with our son. Our 13 year old throws tantrums.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Our son turned to some substance abuse. Go to dailywireplus.com today I had this intuition there's something under that pyramid in Peru. These three fingered tridactyl beings, the largest, most bizarre elongated skulls. Let me tell you the most compelling thing though. Two of the mummies are pregnant. Maybe there is a crypto terrestrial non human race species inhabiting planet Earth, probably subterranean.

[Timothy Alberino]

Sounds crazy.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

It sounds absolutely crazy. Even according to the Smithsonian's own records, there were the remains of people of unusually large stature.

[Timothy Alberino]

What does it mean for us? What does it mean for everything from our human nature to salvation history if that actually happened?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, those are the essential questions.

[Timothy Alberino]

Three fingered mummies, giants and alien abductions. Three things I don't usually talk about on the show. But I had a guest on, what was it, a month, two months ago. We talked about all sorts of crazy, wild discoveries, insane conspiracy theories, some of which might be proven true. And I said, I have to have this guest on again. That would be Mr. Timothy Alberino. Mr. Alberino, thank you for coming on.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Thanks for having me.

[Timothy Alberino]

Last we left on a cliffhanger. I don't usually do repeat guests on this show. I've only done it if there's really intense controversy caused by it. Or now in this case, because you left us all on a cliffhanger. I think we might have been talking about abductions or something like that. And you said, all right, well, anyway, I gotta go to Peru to study mummies. I said, well, you gotta come back once you're back from Peru. You're back from Peru.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I'm back.

[Timothy Alberino]

I have a barrage of questions for you. And I also have a lot of cigars for us.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Let's go.

[Timothy Alberino]

Can I offer you. I think we put a couple over there by your table.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

This is how you begin a good conversation right here.

[Timothy Alberino]

I agree. Especially because you're talking about discoveries that pertain to megaliths, ancient structures, forgotten civilizations. I have a discovery here for all of you. That would be the Mayflower Dream. This is our third blend. We have the Mayflower dawn, that's our morning cigar. The Mayflower Dusk, that's the evening cigar. This is the third and final piece of the blend. Double Maduro, Pennsylvania broadleaf wrapper, Mexican San Andres binder, Nicaraguan long filler. I find it delightful. They're not available yet publicly. So you're One of the first people to try it.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Excellent. Well, I'm a big fan of this. Is this the dawn here?

[Timothy Alberino]

That's the dawn.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I've smoked probably 10 of these since I saw you last time.

[Timothy Alberino]

I'm glad to hear it. Did you offer any to any of the aliens or the mummies?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I did not, no.

[Timothy Alberino]

Okay, tell me about Peru. You went down there to study mummies, and the only mummy I can think of in Latin America from some supposedly extraterrestrial being was that little paper mache thing that they told us a while ago. This, like, looked like a third grade art project of E.T. and they said, this is a mummy of an alien. I looked at it. I said, that's not even a good forgery of a mummy of an alien. So I had absolutely no belief in this whatsoever. What'd you find?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Okay, well, this is a very long and convoluted saga. These.

[Timothy Alberino]

This is a long and convoluted show. So you got plenty of time.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Perfect. So we're talking about the Nazca tridactyl beings. That's what they're officially called.

[Timothy Alberino]

That's the ET Mummy thing.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yeah. And technically, they're not actually mummies, although everybody refers to them as mummies. I refer to them as mummies because in reality, they are desiccated corpses.

[Timothy Alberino]

Okay.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

It's a lot easier to say mummy than desiccated corpse. And desiccated corpses, that's. That just means that they're dried out.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And they have this white powdery substance on their skin, which is basically the residue of a fossilized algae. Okay. And that contributed to the dehumidification of the body. So they're desiccated corpses. And they were discovered about 10 years ago in 2015, in north of the city of Nazca, in the general vicinity of the Nazca Lines. The famous Nazca Lines.

[Timothy Alberino]

For those of us who are not as educated on the subject, what are those?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

The Nazca Lines are these geoglyphs that are carved into the soil of the desert in the Nazca region. And there's different configurations of animals and very straight lines that are carved for. They go on. They go for very. I don't know how long they are, some of these straight lines, but they're very impressive. There's figures of people, humanoids, and there's a bunch of different figures carved into the sand there. Nobody knows exactly who carved them, and nobody knows why, because you can only see them from an aerial perspective. So the big mystery is, why would you do this? Why would you go through all this effort and how could you do this accurately without getting an aerial perspective? What do you mean?

[Timothy Alberino]

You could only see it like it's too big or it's.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yeah, well, the Nasca lines. So this is the desert. And whoever created them could not have had the proper perspective, an aerial perspective from the sky looking down, which clearly these things were carved for that perspective looking down at them. And so there's been a lot of conjecture over the years about aliens creating them and things of this nature. I don't think that's the truth of the matter, but it's a mystery. And so now we have an additional mystery to the Nazca Desert with these three fingered tridactyl beings, these desiccated corpses, and again, these go back to about 2015.

[Timothy Alberino]

Now, if there was some design made, some work of art, even if it were from the sky or something, is it possible that just as those were carved into the ground or whatever, that these beings, what you're calling desiccated corpses, could. I was joking about the papier mache art project. But could it be possible that they're just a work of art, like a sculpture or something like that?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

It's entirely possible. However, as I said earlier, this is a very convoluted subject. So in 2015, these things originally came to light around that time and they were discovered by Guaqueros, by grave robbers. And the grave robbers, they revealed some of these desiccated corpses to a French explorer, a colleague of mine in Peru, who I have been interfacing with about this and his name is Terry Jamin, and he has an organization called the Incati Institute, which is based out of Cusco and Teria is a. He's a remarkable explorer. Actually. His objective, the objective of the Incadi Institute is to discover the lost city of Paititi, which is a lost city of the Inca. A fabled lost city of the Inca.

[Timothy Alberino]

We were gonna honeymoon there, but.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Timothy Alberino]

We weren't able to get a ticket.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

So this was their, this is their primary objective and they've done a lot of work and made a lot of phenomenal discoveries. The Ankaru Institute. So they were the first ones to receive to see these desiccated corpses. But again, the corpses were discovered by. Was by grave robbers. Yeah, somewhere in the region north of Nazca. So without getting into the weeds, basically what we're looking at are, are a few different kinds of. We're going to call them mummies, even though that's not technically accurate. A Few different kinds of mummies. You have small mummies that are about 2ft long, and then you have larger mummies that are in the fetal position, and those are four, four and a half feet tall. If you were to unravel them out of the fetal position. And there's a lot of controversy surrounding this whole situation. This controversy involves the Peruvian Congress, it involves the Ministry of Culture in Peru, the Inari Institute, the Mexican ufologist Jaime Maan. And it's. It's become this, obviously, this international story over the last 10 years. And Jaime Mausan, and I think in 2003, he unveiled three of these or two of these diminutive mummies in the. In the Mexican Congress. And that created a firestorm of intrigue on social media. Yeah. And so that's when I became aware of it. Right, right. A lot of. I became aware of it, actually. So I first became aware of these things sometime around 2016, when the Incadi Institute first published some material regarding them. And then I was in Peru on a project in 2018 and 2019, and I was in the desert not far from the deserts of Paul Paunazca. I was actually over by Pisco in Paracas. And it's basically the same swath of desert. Right. But that's north of Palpa in Peru. This is one of the driest and most inhospitable places on the planet, by the way. I mean, it would be very difficult for anyone to survive there today without modern technology. It almost does not. There's almost no precipitation. And this is precisely why these bodies are so well preserved. And not just these bodies, not just the desiccated corpses, but also other kinds of mummies. Mummies from the Paracas culture, mummies from the Nazca culture. Desiccated corpses are very well preserved out there in that environment. And I was working on a project. We were actually looking for Inka treasure. And we were on a film project, me and my partner, Gary Haven. Gary Haven, by the way, the founder of Curves. Remember Curves? Oh, yeah. And we were exploring this lake out there. It's called Moron, and it's this lagoon out in the desert. And there was legends of Inca treasure that the Inca had. Because they would dump treasure, they would have a ritual ceremony, and they would offer treasure into the bodies of water for various reasons. And so we're shooting this film project looking for Inca treasure and other kinds of treasure. And we're driving by this pyramid every day back and forth from the city of Pisco, actually, all the way back to Paracas And I'm looking at this Adobe pyramid and one day as we're driving by it, I had this intuition there's something under that pyramid. Because oftentimes these ancient sites, what's underneath them is actually more intriguing than what's on the surface.

[Timothy Alberino]

Right.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

There's almost always, especially if it's a pyramid or megalith or something underneath it in almost every case. And so we had procured a state of the art ground penetrating aerial GPR unit. And this was only. There was only three of these units in the world at the time. And we had one.

[Timothy Alberino]

So this is. It allows you to see underground, basically.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

That's right. But you can fly. Operates off of a drone platform. And so this is new technology. Before you had to drag the GPR across the ground to get the readings. And it was very cumbersome, very laborious, slow process. Well, if you can fly the gpr, then you can get a much more accurate reading and you can fly around uneven terrain. It just opens up a whole new. It opens up new possibilities for GPR work. And we have this unit in Peru and we have a. With this GPR unit, we have a shallow penetrating radar and a deep penetrating radar. The deep penetrating radar goes down 300ft and that's used to detect large structures and caverns. The shallow penetrating radar is much more high resolution. And it goes down about 15ft. I mean, we can see in the right conditions, we can see a quarter buried 15ft under the ground.

[Timothy Alberino]

Wow.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

In the right conditions, those are perfect conditions. Right. So I had this intuition that there's something under that pyramid. Now this pyramid is located on what's called the Chongos Necropolis. And the Chongos Necropolis is out there in the middle of the desert. This was the seat of the Paracas culture. And the Paracas culture is. I don't know if you've ever seen the Paracas elongated skulls. Have you seen those?

[Timothy Alberino]

Maybe I actually have. I was ready to say no, because half the time you say, have you ever heard of or seen. I say, I've never heard of that in my life. But I think I might have seen the elongated skulls.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yeah, these are. They're very famous at this point. You can find them all over the Internet. But the Procas elongated, the Pracas people were very, very mysterious culture. And this is going to tie in back to the three fingered mummies eventually. The Prakas were a very, very enigmatic culture. And they were discovered by the eminent Peruvian archaeologist Julio Tejo back in the early 20th century. And there's a few things about this culture that make that that's very strange. For one thing, they're very diminutive people, they're very small, and they have these accentuated craniums, these elongated skulls. Now, some of these, the elongation of most of the skulls is the result of cranial deformation.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, that's what I assume. Which is bind the heads, which is.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Head binding and headboarding, Cranial headboarding, which means that they artificially elongate the skull. But we're convinced that some of the elongation, these elongated skulls, some of that elongation is actually the result of a genetic deviation or genetic anomaly in the human genome.

[Timothy Alberino]

Why do you think that? If some of them are artificial, why wouldn't they all be artificial?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Because the ones that are artificial, the binding of the skull, cranial deformation is done all over the world, in the ancient world, as an act of emulation. They're emulating something.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And I think what they're emulating, whatever it is that they're emulating, has a naturally elongated skull.

[Timothy Alberino]

Okay.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And the elongation of the skull, again, you see it all over the world. The Egyptians, for example, some of the most famous Egyptian pharaohs had elongated skulls, or apparently had elongated skulls, like Nefertiti's daughters.

[Timothy Alberino]

But you wouldn't say, like in China, where they would bind feet, you wouldn't say that the bound feet were emulating some genetic anomaly where a girl's foot was all messed up, or would you?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I'm not sure in that case. But the reason why I say with elongated skulls is because again, there are very important figures in ancient history who appear to have had elongated skulls, like some of the Egyptian pharaohs, Akhenaten, for example.

[Timothy Alberino]

But is there a chance that that would be artificial, that Akhenaten's skull, they would have put some.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Sure, there's a chance it was artificial. Sure. But in Paracas, when you have. I've examined these skulls up close and in fact, we did some genetic testing on them as well, and we got some intriguing results from those, from, from those tests, from the analysis. And when you, when you examine the elongated skulls, the ones that are, that have cradle head boarding that you can see sometimes, in many cases, you can see the markings where they had the bands, because those bands would be, would be pretty tight around the head. And this is done from infancy.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Until a certain age. And then they, once the, once the skull takes the desired shape, then they stop binding it and cradle headboarding it. And you can tell you can tell the difference. But there are some skulls where there is no indication of artificial cranial deformation. And these skulls happen to be the most accentuated elongated skulls, the largest, most bizarre elongated skull. Like, for example, I'm trying to remember the name of the. The name of the museum in Lima. There's one of the very first mummies, Paracas mummies, that Julio Tejo discovered is one of the most remarkable elongated skull mummies I've ever seen. And it is freakish. I mean, when you walk up and look at this thing, you do not get the impression that you're looking at a human being. This is not a member of Homo sapiens sapiens. This is something else. This is some, like a subspecies of Homo sapien. And there's pictures of it online. I don't even know how to reference it exactly, but I have a film that I made with Gary. But this thing is so bizarre. It's not just the elongation of the skull. It's the configuration of the neck bone of the spinal cord. It's different. And there's a lot of things that. There's a lot of anomalies like these. I didn't plan on talking about elongated skulls here, but. But the elongated skulls of Paracas, they have more cranial capacity. In other words, their brains were larger. It was like 30% more, 25 to 30% more cranial capacity inside of their craniums. So that's not empty space. That's brain matter. Their eyes are about. In many cases, the orbital sockets are about 25% larger than a normal human being. So you have these. Not only do they have these elongated skulls, they have extra large orbital sockets, which amounts to extra large eyeballs.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And furthermore, we discovered that the Paracas people. We didn't discover it, but we learned that the Paracas culture, they, for some reason, were predisposed to live under the ground. And this is something that I read in the work of Julio Tegio, an archaeologist, Peruvian archaeologist, that I mentioned earlier. He remarked in one of his papers on the Paracas culture that this civilization had this tendency to be. I think the way he described it was to be a quasi subterranean, something like that. So they were living under the ground. So you got these tiny people, humongous, elongated skulls, gigantic eyeballs living part of the time under the ground. Okay, that's the Paracas people. So this, remember now going back to the Chongos pyramid in the Chongos necropolis, this was the hub of their civilization, or at least one of the primary hubs of their Civilization. It was a big city at one time. And so I had this intuition there's something under this pyramid. And we flew our GPR unit around the pyramid. And sure enough, in fact, specifically, the intuition was there's a tunnel under that pyramid. We flew our GPR unit around the pyramid and what did we discover? Not one, two massive intersecting tunnels 100ft beneath that pyramid. And these tunnels are so big, you could drive a semi truck through them. And they're artificial. Where do they go? Who knows? We just see them on the GPR images. And by the way, we can render our images in 3D so we're not just looking at squiggly lines. We actually can get a 3D rendering of the image and on the computer move around it right in the 3D space. And these are massive tunnels just shooting out somewhere. Who knows where they go? But somebody constructed them. I mean, this is in the middle of the desert.

[Timothy Alberino]

Can you, could you follow them? Could you fly the unit until the end?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

We tried to get into them, but the problem is on the border of this property, on the border of the necropolis. The necropolis is an archaeological site. Yeah. And bordering this archaeological site, it's all private property. And so you can't really do anything. You'd have to follow it for miles. Who knows, who knows how long it would be? And it might go deeper. Right, so. And we were on a shooting schedule, so we couldn't screw around too long trying to get in the tunnels. But we did, we did try and find an entrance for a while. So anyway, going back to the Nazca tridactyl. So Paracas is a little up. It's further up north on the west coast of Peru in the desert. Nazca is further south in the desert. And the Paracas and the Nazca people are very similar. Some people think that the Paracas. The Parakas. The disappearance of the Paracas culture is a mystery. Some archaeologists think that the Paracas people became the Nazca people. And others think that maybe there was some sort of a genocide or something like that, or they just died off. But the Nazca and the Prox, very similar cultures. The Nazca practiced cradle head boarding, rather cranial deformation, cradle head boarding, head binding and so forth. And these three fingered tridactyl beings have elongated skulls. All of them have elongated skulls. Well, at least the majority of them that I've seen have elongated skulls. And so there's this, there's this strange. And they're elongated skulls, by the way. They've been tested. There's been CT scans done on these things. A battery of scientific analyses have been done. CT scans, X rays, genetic analysis, dissections by various teams from around the world on these mummies. And one of the things that was determined definitively is that the elongation of the skulls is natural. There are no indications of artificial cranial deformation. They're naturally elongated. So you have these bizarre. You have these bizarre people inhabiting this region of Peru in between one and 3,000 years ago. You know, if you include the NASA culture, going back to the Paracas culture, these, these. And I should explain that, I think. I don't know if I've said this already, but there's different variety of mummies. Some are two feet tall.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Those are the ones that, that you're. You're referencing that look like dolls. And then there's larger mummies that are in the fetal position. Yeah. And that's typical of the Nazca culture and the Paracas culture, that they would bury their dead in the fetal position because death was like being rebirthed. It was like a rebirth. So you're in the fetal position in the womb, and when you die, they put you back in the fetal position and they bury you in that manner. And that's how these things were discovered, the large ones. Okay, so I make a distinction.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Between the ones that, that look like dolls, that look fake, and the larger ones. And I had the opportunity to go down to ICA. There are approximately 15 of these mummies that have been revealed publicly. I know that there are more because I've interfaced with the people in Peru who are involved in this story. There's more. But publicly speaking, there's 15. Some of them are the smaller variety, some of them are the larger variety. Four of these specimens, both one large and then three small, are in the possession of the University of ICA in Peru, in ica, in the same desert region as we've been talking about here. And the professor who's ahead of the project studying them, his name is Dr. Roger Zuniga, and he invited me to come down and analyze, examine the specimens that they have in the museum, and then interview him. And so last month, I was down in Peru in ica, and I had the opportunity to see these things up close and to talk not only to Dr. Zuniga, but the other professors at the University of Ica. And one thing I can tell you, I'm skeptical. Okay, let me get that out of the way right away. Okay, I'm skeptical. I lived in Peru for 10 years. There's a black market for antiquities in South America, especially in Peru and Mexico. Those are, are Peru and Mexico. I'm always skeptical. Anything that any alien artifacts or anomalous artifacts that come out of Mexico and Peru, my default is I don't believe it. Yeah, that's my default. And so I refrain from commenting on these, the tridactyl, the Nazca tridactyl beings for, for 10 years. Because I'm so skeptical and incredulous as it pertains to these kinds of artifacts. I needed to go and see them for myself.

[Timothy Alberino]

Okay.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And I needed to, to discuss them with the professors and with, with the people involved in the story before I was willing to formulate an opinion.

[Timothy Alberino]

So you're, you're skeptical for 10 years about these things? I've been skeptical since they came to my attention. Are the three fingered, weird looking mummies real?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I don't know.

[Timothy Alberino]

You're still hedging.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

So when I walked up to these specimens and remind me to tie in because I didn't finish the story about the pyramid thing, but when I walked up to the specimens at the University of Ica, they have Maria, which is one of the larger mummies, and then they have Wahwita, which is like a very strange mummy. It's an infant with a gigantic head and three fingers. They're all tridactyl, they're all three fingered. And then they have a couple of the smaller ones. When I walked up to these, they're all there, all four of the specimens. I walked up to Maria first. And I have to tell you, you do get the impression when you're up close to the larger mummies that these were living, breathing beings at one time in the past. That is my sense. Now. Am I willing to, to state definitively that I believe that these things are authentic? No, but they are compelling. The large ones.

[Timothy Alberino]

If I put a gun to your head and said, you gotta bet your life savings and your life in fact, real or fake, you would lean real.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

On the large ones. On the large ones. The small ones are kind of a different story for me. The small ones that most people are familiar with. The small ones, yes. Those I think may be effigies of the large ones or fake. They might all be fake. All of them may be hoaxes. If these things are hoaxes, then they're the most elaborate archeological hoaxes ever perpetrated. I mean, and I'll tell you some reasons why, and I should probably finish what I was saying about the pyramid.

[Timothy Alberino]

So we got time. I have more cigars. We got 10.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

So. So let me finish that and then we'll talk about some of the specifics of the mummies that are the anomalies, the anatomical anomalies. I was talking about how I first heard about the three fingered, the tridactyl beings of Nazca. That's why I went into the story of the Chongo's pyramid and took that circuitous route all the way back. We were doing the GPR scans on the pyramid and I was standing next to a. I had an archaeologist on my team. He was. He's a Spaniard working in Peru as an archaeologist. And we're standing there, scans going on, and we're filming some stuff. And he said to me, he said, hey, you guys aren't talking about aliens, are you in this film? He said, because I don't want to have anything to do with aliens. Yeah, I don't want to have anything to do with that topic. I'm like, no, no. And we weren't. We're not. Remember, we were shooting treasure hunting.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And I said, no, no, we're not doing anything like that. And then he proceeds to tell me why he doesn't want me to talk about aliens and he doesn't want to be in a film with that sort of content. And he begins to tell me about these three fingered tridactyl beings. And this was back in 2018, 2019. And he unpacked this very interesting story, which I won't go into here.

[Timothy Alberino]

Why not? It's an interesting story.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, it's very long and I don't recall all the details, but basically he was involved early on with the mummies, with Tehri Jamin. He was on his team. He was part of the Inkari team during this period of time when they were working with these mummies, and they still are to this day. And he was absolute. And this guy was very skeptical. Okay, this is a very conventional archaeologist. This is not like an ancient aliens guy. In fact, he wanted nothing to do with that sort of thing for his reputation, for his career and because of his experience with these mummies. And he told me, he looked at me and he said, those things are real. He said, I know the story, I've been there since the beginning and I'm telling you they're real. He said, we did the analysis on them. DNA, they've been dissected.

[Timothy Alberino]

That's what I was going to ask. Couldn't you just test to see if it's real DNA or carbon they were tested, okay?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

So that's when I really became interested in the story, was scanning this pyramid in Chongos. Now fast forward to my trip here recently in Peru. The DNA analysis that's been done indicates, and this information is coming from Dr. Roger Zuniga, who's the head of the project in Peru, indicates that 30% of the DNA of the mummies is human. 70% is anomalous. Also, there are some indications of chimpanzee and bonobo DNA. So right there we have a problem. And I believe that's specifically in reference to the larger mummies. Yeah, right there we have a problem. Because if you're hoaxing these things, if you are a Wauketto, a grave robber somewhere out there in the desert manufacturing these things, where are you getting bonobo and chimpanzee components in Peru? There are no bonobos and chimpanzees in Peru. Those are Old World monkeys, apes, I mean, those are only in Africa. They're not in Peru. Peru only has New World monkeys. So that right there is very intriguing. These mummies, I thought you were gonna say.

[Timothy Alberino]

The problem is that if you get a human and a chimpanzee in a room, even if you get them a lot of drinks and put on Barry White, you're not gonna some other being out.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

That's also a problem. Yeah, no, but from the perspective of a hoaxer, why would you go through the trouble to acquire bonobo and chimpanzee components? It doesn't make any sense. So that right there is very, very interesting to me. The fingerprints on these things are horizontal. They have fingerprints and they're horizontal. They're not circular like our fingerprints. So they have very bizarre anomalous fingerprints.

[Timothy Alberino]

But they have finger. Just that alone is pretty big.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Right. They have three long fingers and three long toes. They've been subjected to a battery of tests, as I said, the CT scans and the X rays. And they've been examined by highly credentialed professionals like Dr. John McDowell from the United States, who's a celebrated forensic scientist here in the United States. An award winning forensic scientist has been involved in this story for a couple of years now. And all of the scientists from the United States, from Mexico, there's been a team from Japan who've come and done research on these specimens over the last decade. All of them have concluded, without exception, that the biological material that these mummies.

[Timothy Alberino]

Are.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Composed 100% of biological material. In other words, there's nothing metallic besides the implants, which we'll talk about in a minute. There's no wires, there's no synthetic glue, there's no plastic.

[Timothy Alberino]

Because even when you say it's 30% human and 70% chimpanzee or whatever, when I hear that, I say, okay, well, do you mean you take one piece of the body and it's. It's 30%, 70%? Or is it like, you know, three. Two arms are human and one leg is chimpanzee?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

No, that's in regard to the genome, to the actual genome, to the genome. 30% is human, 70% is anomalous. Now, whether that means that 70% is non human or some of that 70% simply can't be sequenced, I don't know. But Dr. Zuniga really reinforced that point with me and told me that, look, we've got 40% DNA commonality with a papaya, okay? So we're closer to a papaya than we are to these tridactyl beings. So they have the elongated skulls, they have humongous eye sockets, orbital sockets, really large eyes, larger than the paracas skulls that we were talking about earlier. And everyone who's looked at them, all of the scientific teams who've looked at them have not found any. This is what they're willing to say at this point, by the way. So they're not willing to come out and say these are real. But what they're all saying and what they've been saying, all of the scientific teams that have analyzed the bodies, they're all saying that we have not found any definitive proof of a hoax.

[Timothy Alberino]

Okay?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

So that's where this stands scientifically.

[Timothy Alberino]

Okay?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

There is no proof of a hoax yet. That's what I can say with confidence. Okay? Now, McDowell and his team, they were working with Jaime Masan, the Mexican journalist and ufologist. They were on his team, and they did not get access to the small bodies, and nor are they very interested in the small bodies. And I'm not very interested in the small ones either. I tend to think that those are effigies of the larger ones, that those are in fact, like dolls of some kind that were. That maybe were buried with the large ones for some ritualistic purpose. But I'm very, very interested in the larger.

[Timothy Alberino]

So then what are they?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I don't know. But let me tell you the most, and then we can move off this topic.

[Timothy Alberino]

I don't want to move on to this topic. It's very interesting.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Let me tell you the most compelling thing, though. Two of the mummies are pregnant. One of them, Montserrat, she's holding her Womb, they didn't realize she was pregnant, but she's in the fetal position and she's sort of covering her womb with her hands. And so someone suspected, wait a minute, she might be pregnant. So they did the CT scan and they discovered she's pregnant. And the fetus in her womb looks just like them. Elongated skull, three fingers, and two of them have fetuses. Now the smaller mummies, the 2ft tall mummies, one of them at least has what appears to be eggs. And there's been testing done on all of that and it's been determined that whatever those are, it's biological material.

[Timothy Alberino]

So the, so now, previously it seemed like you were saying the small ones are fake, but that seems.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I wouldn't say fake, I wouldn't use the term fake. I would say that the small ones are facsimiles of the large ones, maybe effigies.

[Timothy Alberino]

And they put biological material, they put eggs in them.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

They would have been, you know, I think these are legitimate ancient artifacts at the very least. These are ancient artifacts. Okay, okay. I, I. Now let me say that in 20, I believe in 2023, there was an incident in the airport in Lima, which is the capital of Peru. Lima is the capital city of Peru. And this, this got a lot of play on, by, on the, in the news, both in Peru and, and worldwide. They intercepted a few of these, the smaller dolls in the airport. Somebody was attempting to ship them via dhl, I think, to Mexico. And they were intercepted by the Ministry of Culture. And they were dressed in traditional Andean garb. So they look like little dolls.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

But, but very similar to the, to the Nazca tridactyls. And the Ministry of Culture actually dissected these things and determined very quickly that they're fake because they found synthetic components. The joints were being held together by some sort of a glue. It was a composite of different animals. Right. And so the Ministry of Culture came out and declared, confidently declared, we've solved the mystery. We've proved that these things are a hoax.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

These are not, these were not living, breathing beings. These are composites of different creatures. And I think that, you know, that the whole thing was very suspicious to me because I think that the intention was this is going to, this is going to put this whole thing to debunk the whole once and for all.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

The problem is that the individual who was trafficking these little composites artifacts, and he fabricated them. He admitted that he fabricated them. He admitted that these have nothing to do with the other ones. I was just making facsimiles to sell abroad.

[Timothy Alberino]

Right, right.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

So when that came to light, it became obvious that these are not the same thing. This is something different. And, I mean, I wonder if that whole situation was engineered by the Ministry of Culture in Peru to debunk the whole thing once and for all. Because the Ministry of Culture has tried to forcefully seize the four specimens that are being kept at the University of ica. Six times. They've tried a forced entry into the premises of the university to seize the mummies, to seize the specimens six times. And they've been denied every time. They've been rebutted every time at the university. So the position of the Ministry and Culture in Peru has been very hostile. At first it was just, oh, this is just a hoax. And then after two or three hearings in the Peruvian Congress and then one in Mexico, and all of the international interest in these things and all of the scientific testing that's been done on them, I think the Ministry of Culture went into panic mode.

[Timothy Alberino]

What do they want to shut down?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, first of all, anything that goes contrary to the conventional narrative in Peru is taboo, much more so even than in the United States. I have some experience with the Ministry of Culture in Peru, and they toe the line, and they don't like any narratives that are unconventional at all. And these are certainly unconventional artifacts. And at first, as I said, they just. They didn't really pay too much attention. They just said, oh, these are obvious hoaxes. And then they became quite hostile and attempted to seize the specimens by force. And that's never happened before in Peru.

[Timothy Alberino]

Could the things be like, you know, a missing link? You know, like archaeologists or anthropologists, they find Lucy or something, some earlier hominid kind of creature?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

What the Inkari team and the professors at the University of ICA have told me is they believe that these are hybridized beings. So the Inkari team believes that the smaller specimens, they call them reptoids or reptilian, because their skin is sort of like a reptile. They have some. Some samples of the skin and it's very reptilian. They have eggs, some of them have eggs. So it's like a reptile. And they think that the large ones, the larger mummies, are hybrids between the small ones and human beings. So you have the human species, these reptilian things, and that somebody created a hybrid, and that's what the larger mummies are. Now, I don't know if that's true. I mean, I can't confirm or deny that, that claim, but that's what they believe. And the professors at the University of ICA are also thinking along those lines. Every single professor that I spoke to at the university is 100% percent convinced that all of the mummies are real. When I say real, they were living, breathing beings, right? Having said that, the American team that went down there, they, as I said before, they're not very interested in the small ones. And they don't believe that the small ones were living, breathing beings. They think that those are probably some sort of dull or as I said before, facsimile of the larger one, something like that.

[Timothy Alberino]

But they think that the bigger ones, the jury's out.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

The jury's out with the bigger ones. Again, none of these scientific teams are willing to come out and say these are real. What they're willing to say is they're not. We have not yet discovered any proof of a hoax.

[Timothy Alberino]

So this raises real questions about history, anthropology, even religion. So before we get to that, speaking of religion, I want you to go to hallow.com Right now, starting on May 19, Hallow has a consecration to Jesus through St. Joseph, led by Father Mike Schmitz and Sister Miriam, available to you. St. Joseph is obviously a refreshing counter to our busy, noisy world. He is a quiet, humble guardian who was trusted with raising our Lord and protecting Mary. So pretty big responsibilities, I would say. The timing of this consecration aligns with the new Pope and wraps up on Pentecost. It's just marvelous. It just brings in a lot of different elements, various litanies and all the rest of it. So you can listen to the prayers and recollections while giving the kids, I don't know, their snack. You can listen to it while taking the kids to their sports practice or on your summer vacation. It's perfect for busy schedules. It is a really meaningful way to bring more prayer into daily life and get closer to Our Lord through St. Joseph. Very easy to download. Even me, I'm a Luddite. I can get the Hallow app pretty simply. You can, too. Right now they're offering three months for free at hallow.comKnowles K N O W L E S Check it out today. That was not only a magnificent segue into an ad, but also comes from the topic here. Because here's my understanding of the history of human beings. However human beings came about, I think we have to have a common ancestor and this follows Pope Pius ii, humani generis. We have to have a common ancestor. We have to literally descend from people that we call Adam and Eve. Beyond that, I don't have particularly strong opinions. What does it mean if these. First of all, how does a human being mate with another being and create a hybrid? I didn't think that was possible. And two, what does it mean for us? What does it mean for everything from our human nature to salvation history, if that actually happened?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, those are the essential questions. Assuming these things are real, let's just put aside the small ones for a moment. Let's just focus on the larger ones, like Maria, the one that I had the opportunity to examine. If Maria was in fact a living, breathing being. If we assume that that was the case, then what we're looking at is a non human species that appears to have been hybridized with Homo sapiens. So that would then indicate that there's another intelligence in the background who's doing the hybridization.

[Timothy Alberino]

Or couldn't it just be a human gets frisky with something. Not to be jubilant about it, that's also possible.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

But the reason why I say that and the reason why the Incari Institute team and the professors in ICA are persuaded that, or at least are open to the idea that we're looking at a process of hybridization or experimentation in hybridization, is because it looks like there were some failures. Like the project was obviously not successful in some cases because you have the different mummies display a variety of different anatomical anomalies. And it looks like somebody was trying to perfect a hybrid. And for example, the mummy that's designated Wahwita, which means baby in Quechua at the University of Ica, it's a bizarre mummy. It's not one of the 2ft 1, the 2ft tall ones. Rather it's an infant of the larger ones. Okay, so it's tridactyl. It's got three fingers, three toes. The skeletal structure of this infant is very similar to the larger ones, but it has this humongous head, like babies.

[Timothy Alberino]

Babies have a giant head.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

This one's even bigger. Yeah, this is an unusually large head and it has some, besides the three fingers, it has some very interesting deviations from the larger ones. And there's a couple of other mummies that are like that, with deviations. Right. So none of them are exactly the same. And so the idea is, the question is, are we looking at like an experiment in hybridization here?

[Timothy Alberino]

So not just a random, you know, a human meets some other kind of being and does something weird and you get this freak comes out of it, but that this was an intentional experiment to create another being?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Timothy Alberino]

Undertaken by humans. Or something else.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

That's the idea. Now I'm not sure I believe that personally, but that's what was communicated to me. But could it be? You know, that's a hypothesis.

[Timothy Alberino]

I read some pop science bit about how sub Saharan Africans don't have any Neanderthal DNA. Non sub Saharan Africans, everybody else just about does have some Neanderthal DNA, which suggests some interbreeding many moons ago between Homo sapiens and Neanderthals, but not in Sub Saharan Africa. Could it just be something like that? Why would it have to be intentional hybridization?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

It doesn't have to be. That's just one of the hypotheses. Okay, the other, the other hypothesis, the one that I was originally inclined to favor and probably still do. Assuming these are real. Yeah, is what you said before. Maybe there is a crypto terrestrial non human race species inhabiting planet Earth, probably subterranean, that interbred with either the Paracas or Nazca peoples in Peru, by the way, these mummies were, they tested them for carbon 14 to get the date and they're approximately between a thousand and fifteen hundred years old. So that corresponds to the Nazca culture and the end of the Paracas culture. So were these, was there some sort of a contemporary non human species inhabiting the deserts of Peru? It might not have been desert back then either, by the way. Right, but was there a non human species that was contemporaneous with, let's say, the Nazca culture, interbreeding with them? Is this where the elongated skull feature comes from on some of the Nazca? The ones that aren't the result of cranial deformation? Again, presuming that there are some skulls that are natural.

[Timothy Alberino]

Well, and if you're talking about 1500 years ago, I mean, when we think of finding these weird middle stage kind of non human creatures, we're talking much, much further back than that. 1500 years ago you have the fall of the Roman Empire for sure. The rise of scholasticism.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yeah, I mean, you're right, you're.

[Timothy Alberino]

So you're saying they go back to.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Like the first century A.D. basically in that time period and then, you know, like I said, 1000 to 1500 years.

[Timothy Alberino]

You're suggesting that after St. Augustine wrote his Confessions, there could have been a non human hominid like intelligent creature breeding with humans in the new world, which at that point was untouched by the old world.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

That's a hypothesis. No, I'm not willing to commit to that. I'm not willing to make that declaration here on your show. But that's a hypothesis, yeah, that there's a subterranean crypto terrestrial species with elongated skulls, three fingers, overly large orbital sockets, different kind of brain and only 30% similarity to the human genome. In other words, this is a subspecies of Homo sapiens. Not even a subspecies. Rather, this is a completely different species from Homo sapien. But assuming again, we're playing with the idea.

[Timothy Alberino]

How do you only get to 30%? Meaning, wouldn't it. I'm no biologist, but it seems to me if you bred two different species together and created a hybrid, it'd be 50. 50. So how do you get to 30? Is it that you create the hybrid species and then you breed the hybrid with another one of the first species? How do you do it?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I don't know what the percentage of DNA is when you have, let's say, two different species that are. They're different species, but they're reproductively compatible when they copulate and produce offspring. I mean, I'm not sure what the ratio of DNA. How much would it be? A 50. 50 split? Or does it vary? I don't know.

[Timothy Alberino]

I always thought it would be, but then I look at my eldest son who looks exactly like my wife. I don't think I contributed any DNA.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

To it at all, exactly.

[Timothy Alberino]

To him, rather.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

So I'm not sure how that works. I'm not a geneticist, but. But anything's possible. If this is true and we're talking about a non human species cohabiting the earth contemporaneously with these ancient cultures. You know this, of course, this is not new, this idea of non human entities subterranean co inhabiting the earth with us. The Nazis believe this. The Nazis believed. At least some of the Nazis believed in the Vril. In fact, they had a Vril society.

[Timothy Alberino]

And they did go to Latin America when they were trying to flee from the Allies.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Those Nazis. They did. They did, yeah.

[Timothy Alberino]

Wait, what are the Vril? I'm not as up to date, even though these days if you're on Twitter, it's basically all Nazis. But I'm not as up to date on Nazi esotericism. What are the Vril?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, the Nazis. There was a book. I'm trying to remember the name. I believe it's called in. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. No, no, no. I believe it's called the Coming Race by Edward Lytton Bullen. I think I probably got that wrong. So I haven't read it. I did read it a long time ago. I read it, you know, 10 years ago. I can't remember exactly the title. But he. He wrote a fictional story. Right, but. But he didn't come out and say it was fiction. A lot of people think he was. The Nazis certainly believed that it was a true story, that it was nonfiction. In which he recounts the journey of an individual who somehow. I don't remember the details, somehow made it to, like, this underground civilization, made his way underground and discovered these intelligent non human beings inhabiting the bowels of the earth. And he called them the Vril. And based on this story, you had the development of the Vril Society, which was an occult society, and you had these women who styled themselves as the Vril maidens, and they had very long hair and they were part of this occult society and they were mediums. And the Vril Society was instrumental in the early days of the Nazi party.

[Timothy Alberino]

I did know they were into really weird occult stuff. And I was speaking recently to a priest who said, you know, it's not. It used to be 20 years ago the big task of an evangelist was to convince people not to be atheists. He said, now no one's atheist. Atheism is passe and cringe and lame. He said, now the challenge is to convince them not to go into the occult. It's as if the occult, 100 years later, that's made a big comeback.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

That's a really good point. Yeah, no, that's a really good point. And I think I would agree with that. Yeah, but the Nazis, the Vril Society, believed that the Vril were real and they went looking for them. They wanted to make contact with them. And there's a lot that can be said there that's sort of a big diversion from what we've been talking about.

[Timothy Alberino]

Well, because, you know, you left us on a cliffhanger last time about aliens and abductions and that kind of stuff. But now I'm thinking, well, hold on. Maybe you don't look up into the sky. Maybe that's all fake news and the real weird conspiracy theories. No, you look down into the earth. That's where the abductions are coming from.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

That's called the crypto terrestrial hypothesis.

[Timothy Alberino]

I've stumbled onto it unknowingly.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

You did? Yeah. So the crypto terrestrial hypothesis posits that there are intelligent non human beings who have been co inhabiting planet Earth, albeit covertly, with the human species for thousands of years.

[Timothy Alberino]

Forever.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Forever. Maybe they were here before us. Right. Maybe they're indigenous to planet Earth, or maybe they came from somewhere else and established a civilization. And there's various branches of this hypothesis. Some people believe that, or some people have theorized that there's an antediluvian race still alive that survived the cataclysm, but now they're living in a civilization under the ground or something like this. This is called the crypto terrestrial hypothesis.

[Timothy Alberino]

Wouldn't that, though contradict salvation history? Isn't the idea of the flood that it just wipes out everything except for that which was saved on Noah's Ark, which in your line of work? I recently read an article about how they think they found Noah's Ark in Turkey or something. Yeah, but I don't know anything about that. I don't really know much about any of this.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, this. Okay, so there are a few different perspectives on the flood of Noah. Okay, so the most common perspective in the fundamentalist perspective is that the flood. And by the way, let me preface this by saying all three of these perspectives come from using the same. A breakdown of the same terminology, in other words, from the text. All three of these hypotheses come from the wording and the text. And you can make a case for all three based on the text. Right. So the first, of course, is the universal flood. That the flood of Noah covered every square inch of ground on planet Earth. That Mount Everest. That Mount Everest was underwater. Yeah. Okay. That's the most common understanding and the. The most widespread conventional position of most Christians.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Okay. So I would call that the global flood theory. Yeah, The. The second is what's called the local flood theory. And this theory posits that indeed there was a catastrophic flood, but it was limited in scope. It was geographically limited to Mesopotamia, the Levant, and the civilizations in the Levant were absolutely destroyed, devastated. So if you were living, if you were a person living in the ancient near east at that time, your entire world, the entire known world, is inundated, let's say the Mediterranean area, totally inundated, and all the civilizations in the Mediterranean are wiped out or utterly destroyed. Well, but maybe the rest of the Earth wasn't affected in the same way. That's the local flood theory. And there are a lot of scholars, good scholars, like the late Michael Heiser, who subscribed to a local flood theory. And using, again, just based on the text, not reading anything into the text, just based on the text of Scripture. And those are in some sense competing theories. And then there's a hypothesis that I subscribe to and maybe I invented that I call the global cataclysm hypothesis. So rather than it just being a localized flood in the ancient near east, maybe in The Mediterranean area, the entire Earth was subjective, was subjected to a devastating cataclysm, and that everywhere on Earth was affected by the cataclysm, but differently depending on where you lived. So if you lived maybe in the Mediterranean, you would have experienced catastrophic flooding. It would have been an aqueous cataclysm. But if you lived in a different part of the Earth, you might have experienced some other kind of effect from this cataclysm, like extreme volcanism, earthquakes and this. Basically, there's a couple of different scenarios that we can think about that may have precipitated the Great Flood. In other words, what was the cause of the flood? I mean, you read the Bible, it rained a lot. Yeah, yeah, but I think it's much more complicated than that. I actually subscribe to the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis. And the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis posits that sometime around 12,000 years ago, sometime around 10,000 BC, in the neighborhood, let's say, of 10 or 11,000 BC, there was a, some sort of a cosmic body, an asteroid or fragments of an asteroid that collided with planet Earth during the ice age, the last ice age, the end of the last ice age, and probably bombarded the North American ice sheet, specifically the Laurentide ice sheet, which covered much of North America. We're talking about a mile to two mile deep sheets of ice. And that event, that impact event, is what catalyzed the great cataclysm that all the ancients talk about, including the biblical writers. And if you read the universal testimony of our ancient antecedents, all of the primary cultures around the world, they all have flood myths. Now, most of them have specifically flood myths. All of them have cataclysm myths. Because you do find some variation. Some of the cultures, rather than describing catastrophic flooding, they'll describe black rain and earthquakes and extreme volcanism. So there's some variation, but the general testimony of our antecedents is that there was some cataclysmic event that rocked the Earth in the distant past and brought to ruin the remarkable civilization that inhabited the Earth in the antediluvian world. And this is, you know, certainly the ancient Near Eastern cultures believe this. The ancient Greeks believed this, the Romans believed this. You find these myths among the Native Americans, in North America, everywhere, the ancient Chinese, everybody has cataclysm myths. So I believe that there was an impact. And there's been a lot of study done on this hypothesis. I didn't invent it. It's called the Younger Dryas Impact hypothesis. And I think there's a lot of evidence, and the evidence is mounting that in fact the Earth was bombarded at the end of the last ice age by some sort of cosmic body or bodies like that collided probably with the ice sheets in America.

[Timothy Alberino]

But in the Christian understanding of it, doesn't everybody have to die? Isn't it that the whole earth is so corrupted that God sends the flood and there's only one good guy, Noah, and he brings his family and two of each animal onto the ark and then everyone else dies, Crucially, everyone else is gone. So that everyone and everything that descends that is existent today comes from that which was saved on Noah's ark. As a figure of the salvation of Christ is your theory, however it comes about, whether it's a meteor or whatever, an asteroid or something, could certain things have survived?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yes. Okay. Yeah. And again, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of Christians listening to this who are going to protest because doesn't the Bible say xyz? Well, let me remind everyone that there is a very strong case to be made, at least for the local flood using the text. Many scholars do. So it's not as cut and dry as a lot of people think it is. I'm open to all three of the scenarios. I mean, as I said, I do subscribe to the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis. We do know that that impact led to the extermination of the megafauna, that megafaunal extinction event that did happen at the end of the Younger Dryas. And those animals went extinct overnight.

[Timothy Alberino]

What are those animals?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, you're talking about the mammoths, mastodons, the giant sloths, the saber toothed tigers, the short faced bears, all of those magnificent megafaunal creatures that roamed the Earth. They disappeared overnight, basically. I mean, we've discovered mammoths or mastodons in various parts of the earth that are very well preserved. I know some have come from Siberia, some have come from North America in which it's apparent that these things died suddenly like they were flash frozen.

[Timothy Alberino]

They chewing food like they got the COVID shot. No, I'm joking, joking. YouTube, I'm joking. So something happened and they all died, Right?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Right. Like instant death. And, and it looks like some of them were flash frozen. And they're, they're eating, they're chewing on food. They have food in their stomachs that's not yet digested, fermented and so forth. And so something catastrophic obviously happened. And I think that something catastrophic is precisely what's documented in the pages of the Hebrew Bible.

[Timothy Alberino]

Okay, so then I want to fast forward. Maybe there are these weird things living underground. Maybe there are some people. I don't really believe in aliens or anything, but some people believe they're weird things flying around the sky. Some people, I don't know, say come from under the ocean or something like that. But there are people who claim to have had contact with these things today, not in 500 AD, not 10,000 BC today.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Which things?

[Timothy Alberino]

Aliens?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Okay.

[Timothy Alberino]

Or I don't know, weird three fingered Peruvian longheads or I don't know, I don't know what they. I think it's like hallucinations or demons or something. But do you believe in those things? Do you believe the accounts of people who say they've encountered them? Do you think the people who say they've encountered them are being sincere, but they're just deluded? And if those are real interactions, are they weird three fingered Peruvians or are they aliens?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

What specifically are we talking about? Are we talking about alien abduction or are we talking about people who have encountered UFOs?

[Timothy Alberino]

Let's start with abduction, but then broaden it to people who say they've encountered UFOs.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Okay.

[Timothy Alberino]

So were you Essos? I even, I was talking to a guy who's a, I'm not gonna say he's a totally balanced guy, but he's pretty, he's a pretty sober minded guy who says that he was underwater once, he was a diver and he saw an unidentified submerged object that was moving much faster than any technology that he was aware of, government or private, and he couldn't. Way deeper, couldn't explain it. Looked like a light, didn't look like a bioluminescent. So anyway, I've heard these accounts even from people who seem at least relatively sane. What's your take?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Okay, let's start with the UFOs and then work into the abductions. Because I think we can say definitively at this point, and I think I said this last time I was on your program, you said you saw one. Yes, I did. And that UFOs are a reality now, concrete reality.

[Timothy Alberino]

They are unidentified flying objects.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

They're not a figment of people's imaginations. And they definitely are. Advanced aerial vehicles.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yes.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

That are inexplicable.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yes.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

In regard to their capabilities.

[Timothy Alberino]

I agree, even in my deep skepticism. All this I agree. All that's true. Where people lose me is they say that a little green or gray man took me up on a spaceship and started probing areas that I used to only reserve for the three fingered Peruvians and the bonobos.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Okay, well, so early on in ufology, and ufology is just UFO research. Yep. Everyone was fixated on the UFOs. Yeah. The lights in the sky, the, the objects that dart around in the sky and perform these extraordinary aerial maneuvers. And, and we need to, I mean, we're talking about maneuvers that are impossible.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

According to our current understanding of physics. You know, right angle turns at thousands of miles an hour, for example.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And those objects we now know because back then, let's say 10 years ago and, and 10 years and beyond, there was a UFO controversy. Are UFOs real? Do these things exist or are all of the alleged sightings.

[Timothy Alberino]

Hallucinations.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Hallucinations. Or do they all have mundane explanations? That was the controversy. Yeah. Today in 2025, the controversy is over. Yeah, there is no controversy anymore. UFOs are real. This technology exists. Advanced aerial vehicles definitely are flying in our airspace and in many cases our restricted airspace. Yes. The government has admitted as much. The Pentagon has admitted as much. And we've had whistleblowers come forth who have claimed firsthand knowledge of what's called the Legacy program.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yes.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And the Legacy program is the project, the program of recovery of these craft, the ones that crash, and the reverse engineering of the technology.

[Timothy Alberino]

And they've even said in congressional testimony, these craft have biologics.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

There's the recovery of the pilots, the non human pilots.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yes.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

This was the testimony of David Grusch.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yes.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Who worked in the intelligence community and was actually tasked to study UAP officially for the government. And he came up, he ran up against a program that he was not allowed to be read into. And this was the Legacy Program.

[Timothy Alberino]

So this guy says, I've encountered these beings, but they're dead. And they were in some aircraft. And whether you believe it or not. Okay, has anyone who says they've seen the things alive, Are they just total nutters as I kind of think they are, or spiritually darkened as I think they are? Or have people met these entities?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

So I think we can confirm at this point that the phenomenon is real. Advanced aerospace vehicles exist and I think I am 100% confident that some of this technology is non human in origin. Now transitioning over to people who've actually encountered the entities, because this is where it gets very interesting to me.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Lights in the sky is one thing. Seeing a cigar shaped craft or tic tac shaped object zipping around in the sky, that's one thing.

[Timothy Alberino]

Cigar shaped anything interests me.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yeah, exactly. We're very much interested in cigar shaped Anything. So that's one thing. But I've. I'm much more interested in what's piloting the craft. Yes. Okay. And the only insight, besides the people who are working inside of the Legacy program, who have actually had hands on the craft and the bodies, but.

[Timothy Alberino]

So.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Far, we haven't had anyone come forth in an official capacity at a hearing, raising their hand and swearing under oath that they were inside the program and have held the bodies or have handled the materials or anything like that. We've had people like Grush, who. He's come up against the program. He was made aware of the program, but could not penetrate it. Right. So the only insight that we have into the craft are the abductees. And the alien abduction phenomenon really began to come to light in the 80s. It goes back before that, in fact, I think it goes back to the late 19th century. But it came to light in the 80s, primarily. I mean, you had the Barney and Betty Hill affair, which happened in the 60s, and. And a couple of other cases. Barney and Betty Hill were kind of the most famous abduction incident. This was back in the 60s, I think it was 1961. And they had an abduction experience that was publicized. And this was one of the first times, not the very first case, but one of the first cases that was actually publicized regarding alien abduction. And they were an interracial couple, and they had this bizarre tale to tell, and the media actually took it serious, and it was widely publicized. But in the 80s, you had a deluge of abductees coming forth, describing their experiences, and they were coming to abduction researchers. And the abduction alien abduction researchers are not crackpots. They're not tinfoil hat crackpots. You're talking about very prestigious people. You're talking about very intelligent, highly intelligent researchers, such as the late John Mack from Harvard University, who is the head of the department of psychiatry at Harvard.

[Timothy Alberino]

I thought it was a prerequisite to get into Harvard. You had to be a crackpot today at this point.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yeah. So you had people like Dr. Carla Turner, who was a professor at the university level, Dr. David Jacobs, who was a professor of history at Temple University, and others of this caliber, who did a lot of research and collected a lot of data regarding the abduction phenomenon. And what you have to understand about this phenomenon, the abduction phenomenon, is that this is an area of research that lends itself to scientific inquiry. Yeah. This isn't just fanciful stories. These stories have every kind of evidence to prove a case in court of law. Such as, well, when abduct, when. When when abductees are taken, they're physically removed from the point of abduction. They're not there anymore. You've had incidents in which, which people have been abducted and search parties have been sent out to look for them and then they mysteriously appear back in their room or back on the couch or whatever. You have cases in which abductees that there's third party witnesses, like a neighbor sees their neighbor being abducted, like beamed.

[Timothy Alberino]

Up to a spaceship.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yes, in some cases, yes. You have. Abductees have physical evidence on their bodies when they. Sometimes there's an abduction episode that happens and when they return, they have scars, fully formed scars that they didn't have the night before. And of course you have abductees who return with fetuses in their wombs and they weren't pregnant previous to the abduction event. And this is, as I said, this is a, an area of research that lends itself to scientific inquiry because of.

[Timothy Alberino]

The physical evidence, but it's not. The fetuses they have in their womb presumably are human. They don't have a, those.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

No, they're, they're hybrids. And let's, you know, I want people to separate in their mind the three fingered tridactyl situation to the alien abduction scenario.

[Timothy Alberino]

But we've never seen one of these hybrids, have we?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, we haven't, but abductees interact with them all the time. So the abduction phenomenon has been going on for a long time.

[Timothy Alberino]

But like a woman says, I got beamed up to the spaceship, I came back, I'm pregnant, I give birth to this.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

They don't give birth, they come back with fetuses and the fetuses are removed in a subsequent abduction episode between nine and 11 weeks before they start to show a. A typical abduction episode unfolds in the following way. You'll have, let's say there's a woman is going to bed at night, she's maybe reading in bed, and then she turns the lights off and goes to sleep. Her husband could be laying in bed next to her. And then suddenly she awakens in the middle of the night to a light in her room. She opens her eyes, but she's paralyzed, can't move, can't speak. Very reminiscent of sleep paralysis, sleep paralysis. But in many cases they'll see.

[Timothy Alberino]

A.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Beam of light in the room or a flash of light, and then a little gray guy appears, or usually three. Three little gray guys appear in the room. Bald, diminutive gray people with large almond shaped black eyes. And usually the first thing that happens is these entities will come up to the abductee, who, again, is immobilized, awake, but immobilized. And they'll look into their eyes, and they'll communicate telepathically with them and attempt to calm them down. And then they extract the abductee from the bedroom, in this case. And that usually happens through a beam of light that's projected into the room. And they go through the beam of light, through the window, up into the craft. If the craft is not in proximity, then what happens is that the little gray guys, little gray aliens, will hold the abductee by the hand. They'll walk them through the house, down the stairs, out the front door, across the front yard, across the field, into the woods, into a clearing in the woods where the craft has landed. And then they'll escort the abductee into the craft. And that procedure usually happens during a corporate abduction, a mass abduction, where there's multiple people being taken from the same neighborhood. And then they take the abductees onto the craft, and they subject him to a series of procedures that are common to all abductees. And you have to understand that as fantastical as crazy.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, I'm not really on board.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

As crazy as this sounds, witnesses from around the world for decades now have described the exact same thing.

[Timothy Alberino]

But couldn't they have just read the account?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

These are people from all over the world going back decades. This goes back to before flying saucers and little green men were popular and were a figure of pop culture. Okay. These people are explaining the same thing. And remember, they're returning in many cases with physical evidence. Sometimes when they're brought back, when they're returned to the point of abduction, their clothes are on backwards or they have somebody else's clothes on. Sometimes abductees encounter. They'll encounter other people on the craft, and then they'll be shopping in the grocery store, and they'll see that person who they've never met in their life in any other context, and they recognize each other and remember the abduction episode. And what. Basically what happens is when they're on the craft, they're subjected to a series of procedures that are for women. They're gynecological in nature. They're laid out on a table, and the grays will usually take semen from the males and eggs from the females. And then they take the egg from the female, they add in the sperm from the male, Then they add in some kind of alien component, and then they implant the embryo into the woman's womb, and she carries the fetus, develops in her womb, and she carries it for about 11 weeks. And then there's a subsequent abduction episode, and they remove the fetus, and they put it into a gestation tank, and it completes the rest of its development.

[Timothy Alberino]

But now, hold on. If you're one of these women who says, you know, I got beamed up and implanted to use a euphemism, and then I come back down and I'm pregnant, Do they go get a pregnancy test? Do they go. They do. So there is some evidence that they're actually pregnant?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Oh, yes, sometimes.

[Timothy Alberino]

And then one day, they say, okay, I'm not pregnant anymore, before they're showing. So before they can feel the baby.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

It's called missing fetus syndrome. Yes. They'll go get the pregnancy confirmed at their gynecologist, and then mysteriously, the fetus disappears. This has been recorded multiple cases around the world.

[Timothy Alberino]

To me, it's kind of like Jeffrey Epstein in the prison cell. Like, if you got a guy who's one of the most wanted men in the world, who's got a lot of powerful people who want to kill him or who he has dirt on, and he's tried to commit suicide before, and you have him isolated in a prison cell, and then you say, ah, darn, we took our eyes off him. You say, like, well, why'd you take your eyes off him? You got it. Hold on. You got. The guy should have eyes on him 24 7. So if I'm a woman who I think I got abducted and impregnated by an alien, and I come back to earth and I'm confirmed I am pregnant, now, wouldn't you like, I don't know, be extra careful so you don't. You don't get abducted. Again.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Most abductees have no recollection of their abduction episodes. The entities that abduct them, the grays. As I said, all communication on board the craft is telepathic. These entities never speak with their mouths.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And they have the ability to implant screen memories in the minds of the abductees. And a screen memory is basically a false memory. So in the case that I described earlier, that a woman who's being abducted, she goes to sleep, she wakes up, she has these little gray guys in her room. Sometimes there's a screen memory, and the abductee has this bizarre recollection, which is sort of dreamlike, where, let's say, there's an owl perched on. On her nightstand, and it's got big black eyes, and it's, like, communicating telepathically with her. And that's her memory of the event, but she has scars. The next morning, she wakes up with a scar, or her nose is bleeding and she feels like something happened at night, but I don't know what it was. Well, what happens is they have these false memories, screen memories that are implanted into their minds that are designed to obfuscate the real memories. So most abductees don't have conscious recall of an abduction episode, of an abduction event. You have to circumvent the screen memories. And when you circumvent those screen memories, you get the same story from. I mean, from. We're talking from hundreds of thousands of people around the world from different cultures.

[Timothy Alberino]

But how do you circumvent the screen memory? Could you not? Would that not.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, the way that abduction researchers do it and have done it in the past is they use various relaxation techniques. Some of them do what's known as hypnotic regression.

[Timothy Alberino]

But what I'm saying is, couldn't that process be implanting the memory? So if the way we're looking at it now is, well, the real memory, the real thing that happened is they were abducted and impregnated by aliens. The fake memory is that you were looking at your owl, talking to your owl. But couldn't it just be the opposite, that the real thing that happened was you were talking to your owl And.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, the problem is all the physical evidence that I. The aforementioned physical evidence, the scratches, they.

[Timothy Alberino]

Could have scratched themselves.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

The problem is when your neighbor sees you being abducted.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, that's harder one to make.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

The problem is when you're missing. Yeah, when. When you were. When. When, you know, your daughter went to bed at night, and now you can't find her, and the police are out looking for her for a couple of hours, and then suddenly she's back in her bed.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

The problem is when abductees are abducted from their bedroom, and they're not always abducted from their bedroom. Some are abducted while they're driving. They pull over and they're abducted. There's a lot of cases like that. But let's say this happens. Actually, this has happened quite a bit where an abductee is abducted from their bedroom, but they don't get put back in their bed. They're left outside on the patio, and they're knocking on the door, and they're in their nightgown, and the door's locked, and sometimes they have to break into their own house to get back in. I mean, this is not a psychological.

[Timothy Alberino]

Phenomenon, but a skeptic would say they probably went Sleepwalking, they probably just went out and they don't remember it. They don't remember it. They say they have this gap in their memory. So maybe, you know, like a dementia patient goes out and starts wandering, doesn't know how they ended up on their front porch or something. Couldn't it just be that or. No, you're saying the uniformity of the physical evidence points to an alien abduction.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And the synchronization of all of the testimony of abductees from around the world, different cultures, different languages, different backgrounds. I mean, and it's every walk of life, it cuts cross culturally, this phenomenon. I mean, you have, you have blue collar guys that are being abducted next to doctors and lawyers and probably congressmen. I mean, it's, it's, it cuts, it cuts against every cultural identity, every occupation, every bias and bias, and it's, it's a reality. So I studied the abduction material. I've been studying it for a decade and very intrigued by it. And there's a lot of good material like this. Again, these aren't crackpots. There's a lot of good research. And eventually I've been speaking about it on podcasts and writing about it. I write about this in my book Birthright. And now I have abductees coming to me, telling me their stories, relating things to me. I'm not asking them to come to me. And these people are not. Most abductees are not. They don't want to publicize what's happening to them. They don't want fame. They're not looking for money. They're not looking to publish a book. This is just something that they live with and they want answers. And I'm sure after this interview, I'm going to get flooded by emails of people who are sending me emails describing the same phenomenon. And you know, the late Dr. John Mack, he was a psychiatrist, and he said, look, either one of two things is happening here, and this is definitive. Either one of two things that's happening. Either people are really being abducted and this is a physical phenomenon that's widespread, or there's something just as intriguing going on. There's a psychological phenomenon happening where all these people think they're being abducted all over the world. Okay? And remember, we're talking decades back. We're not. It's still happening today.

[Timothy Alberino]

But you could say, you know, schizophrenia involves hallucinations.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And collectively, is it corporate hallucinations where everybody is experiencing the same thing and coming back with the same physical.

[Timothy Alberino]

No, no. But you would at least say schizophrenia exists across Cultural boundaries and geographic boundaries. And the same, you know, borderline personality disorder exists across cultural boundaries. And it seems to be concentrated among affluent people in America. But, you know, it exists everywhere now. So that's not to say, you know, your neighbor sees you get beamed up to a spacecraft. That's obviously. That's a separate issue. But if it. But to his point, if it were a psychological phenomenon. That's an interesting thesis. Could it not also be a spiritual phenomenon?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

What do you do with the implants?

[Timothy Alberino]

What's the implant? You're talking about the fetus?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

No, no, I'm talking about many abductees. I think all abductees have alien implants.

[Timothy Alberino]

What's the implant?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

These are small, very small devices. They're about the size of a small pill. They're usually located up in the upper nasal cavity, sometimes behind the ear, sometimes behind the neck. But they can be anywhere in the body. And these are very anomalous. There was Dr. Roger Lear. He extracted several of these things from patients who came to him. And he discovered a few things. A few very interesting features of these implants. Number one, the body doesn't reject them. So these are technological devices that are implanted in the body. The body does not reject them. They're foreign objects. There's no swelling, there's no inflammation. Number two, they're evasive. They move. And when Dr. Lehrer would go to. Sometimes would go. And others, by the way, not just Dr. Lehrer, the late Dr. Lehrer, he passed away. Would go to extract these implants, they would evade. Evade him in the body. So they're mobile, they move around. And then the third thing about them is that they. They seem to be composed of. Of. Of like nanotubes, nanotechnology. And. And these have been extracted from abductees. Abductees have had them fall out of their noses, their nasal cavity, after an abduction episode. So I think all abductees are implanted. I mean, we have. Not me, but abduction researchers have the implants that have come out of people's bodies.

[Timothy Alberino]

So how do the skeptics explain that? Like me, how do I explain that?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

There is no explanation. So really there's, let's say inside of ufology, there's two camps. So among people who believe in an extraterrestrial presence or whatever it is. Non human intelligence.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Some of them believe that the abductions are actually happening and that the gray aliens are perpetrating this phenomenon. Others think that the government is perpetrating this phenomenon.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, yeah, okay.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

That I can get more elements of The CIA are abducting people and pretend dressing up like aliens and so forth.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah. I mean, there have been agencies of the US Government that have conducted experiments on their own citizens.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yes. But the problem, and I understand why people think that, and I think there may be some truth to that, but the scope of that would be very limited. There is no way, it is entirely, I think, unfeasible, that there is some element of any government, not just the United States government, any government that is capable of perpetrating a phenomenon that is so widespread, so secretive. We're talking the abduction researchers, the late Budd Hopkins and then Dr. David Jacobs, who's still alive. They did a poll. I think it was a Roper poll. I can't remember the year. I think it was back in the 80s or 90s. And it was a professional poll. I forget how many people they. What do you call that surveyed in the poll, but they determined that somewhere between 2 and 5% of the U.S. population are abductees. Between 2 and 5%. So you're talking about a tremendous amount of people who are experiencing this phenomena.

[Timothy Alberino]

They don't all have implants in their noses.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I would say all of them have implants somewhere in their body.

[Timothy Alberino]

But they haven't been discovered.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

No, but many of them do discover the implants. And it's usually during a CT scan or an X ray or something like that, they find this strange foreign object. Sometimes they decide to have the object removed, but not always, because sometimes it's embedded way up high in the nasal cavity or back here behind the ears, the back of the neck. And most abductees that I've interfaced with who have implants just would rather not touch it. They don't want to operate and dig in there and try and get this thing out because it's not really affecting them. They don't feel it. It's not causing any pain.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, but if it proves the existence of some intelligent bizarro being or of a nefarious government program, wouldn't you be willing to go under the scalpel for it?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, man, you do. And you've got to find, you know, I mean, you've got to find a surgeon willing to extract it. And it's, you know, and there are surgeons out there who do it, like I said, the late Roger Lehrer.

[Timothy Alberino]

So what does he do? So he gets the thing out and looks at it. What does it do? What is the implant?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, it's evasive. They're very difficult to get. When you do extract them again, they seem to be covered in a membrane, some kind of an organic membrane. And they're very, very difficult to cut, really hard to cut. They've looked at them with the electron microscopes and they've discovered, as I said before, like nanotubes. So there seems to be some kind of a nanotechnology associated with these things, but quite a few of them have been extracted from abductees.

[Timothy Alberino]

So where are they? I want to see one of these things.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, Leir had some. It's rumored that Steven Spielberg has some. I've got people who come to me right now. I've got a couple of people who have identified an implant and they want to get it extracted and analyzed. So there aren't a whole lot of people who do abduction research anymore, precisely because it just seems so fantastic.

[Timothy Alberino]

It sounds crazy.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

It sounds absolutely crazy. And so it's the least researched domain within ufology, especially today, even though, as I keep reiterating, there is a compelling body of evidence, excellent research, excellent data that has been accrued over decades in regard to this phenomenon. And there are contemporary people all over the world, not just the United States, who are still experiencing the phenomenon. And by the way, the phenomenon is intergenerational. So if your parents are abductees, then the kids, I mean, then you're an abductee. So if the parents are abductees, then their children are also.

[Timothy Alberino]

But again, wouldn't that. To me, that raises such a red flag of, all right, your dad's a nut and you're going to be a nut too, because you got some quirk of your psyche or something.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

You know, all I can tell you is I have familiarized myself with Edada and I interface all the time with abductees all the time. And these people are.

[Timothy Alberino]

They don't seem right.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

From all walks of life. Some of them are very good friends of mine who I know personally. These are not crazy people. They're totally sound of mind, rational people. And what they described to me synchronizes precisely with the research, with the data that I've read. I mean, it's the exact same phenomenon. And oftentimes they all describe the beings in the same way. They all describe the beings in the same way. One friend of mine actually reached out and grabbed one by the neck during an abduction episode. And she described the feeling, the skin of this creature in the exact same way that everyone else does. You know, it's cold and clammy, leathery skin. So this isn't fanciful now, is it some sort of crazy psychological thing? That there's like a collective hallucination happening. How do you explain the implants? How do you explain the scars? How do you explain the. The disappearing fetuses? How do you explain.

[Timothy Alberino]

I could explain both of the latter things. The scars could be a kind of repressed self harm or you'll dodge with.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Orange that are not there when you go to bed, but are there the next morning when you wake up fully formed.

[Timothy Alberino]

Oh, you're saying the scar. Not just an injury, but that it's a scar?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

No, no, no. It's a fully formed scar.

[Timothy Alberino]

Okay. The disappearing fetus, you could say, well, it was a. You had a miscarriage or something like that. I don't know. But the implants would be harder to figure out.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

What about the missing time? What do you mean, many abductees? Well, let's say you're driving from one location to another, and it should take you an hour to get from A to B. And you're driving at night, and this is usually the way it works. You're driving along the road, and you see a light in the sky. You're usually on a rural road at nighttime. See a light in the sky, and you think, oh, that's interesting. What is? That you're kind of looking out your windshield, and suddenly you realize it's getting closer and closer until it's right behind your car, and you can actually see the shape of something in the rear view mirror, and it's very bright. Then the next thing you know, you've arrived to your destination, but you're missing two hours of time. Very common. What? I just. That scenario is actually quite common among abductees. Well, they're not missing the time. The time is perfectly accounted for. While they were on board the craft, you could say being subjected to the.

[Timothy Alberino]

You could say they blacked it out. You know, sometimes I'll be driving. I was just on a long road trip. You're driving, and I don't know, you know, you kind of blank out for a little bit. You say, oh, wow, did 20 minutes go by?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

But when they're subjected to hypnotic regression or they work with an abduction researcher and there really aren't many of those left, and they can recall the memory. It's not. I blacked out. It's. Okay, here's the. Because the last thing they consciously remember is the light is the light behind them. And then suddenly they're at their destination or they're miles down the road suddenly, and they have really no recollection of what happened in the interim, but they've lost two hours. But when they begin to recover the memories, you hear the same thing from everybody all the time. They pull over to the side of the road because the entities are connected to them telepathically. And there's an element of control that might have to do with the implants as well. They pull over to the side of the road and they're just sort of in a comatose state. And the craft either lands and the entities get out and open the door and usher them into the craft, or sometimes the entire car is lifted up into the craft, and then they're subjected to the typical procedures that happen on board the alien vessel. And then they're put back in the car, but they're dropped off further or they're dropped off closer to their destination. Sometimes abductees are. When they come to, they're driving on the wrong side of the road into traffic. I mean, there's all kinds of crazy things that happen. And, I mean, there's a lot of things that could be said about this phenomenon.

[Timothy Alberino]

Look, that part too, you could explain. They just sort of, you know, they got a little drowsy. Imagine something swerved into the other side of the road, or they became British immediately. And. Okay, so let's say all that's real. Let's just suspend disbelief for a moment and say, oh, that's real. Tying this back in some of the deeper things. We've been talking about history, philosophy, religion. Last time we were talking a lot about the book of Enoch, Biblical parallels. Are the little gray men good or bad or neither?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

What they're doing is nefarious.

[Timothy Alberino]

Okay, that part I could get on board with.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I mean, the nature of an abduction is you're taking someone against their will. Abductees are not willingly participating in what amounts to a breeding program.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

So this is an intrusion. And most abductees, certainly the ones that I interface with, desperately wanted to stop. It's very frightening experience, and you have no control over it. And nobody wants to feel like a lab rat. So this is a. You know, these people have a form of ptsd, like post abduction, you know, Post traumatic abduction syndrome. Yeah. And they lose sleep because they're not sleeping. And by the way, this. An abductee is abducted from the time they're a little child until they're elderly.

[Timothy Alberino]

There's no one offs.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

No, there are no one offs. Abduction happens for the duration of their life.

[Timothy Alberino]

So again, it doesn't. Doesn't that raise a red flag of maybe this is just something?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

No, actually, I think it creates more of a problem for skeptics because abductees, once they begin to recall the abduction episodes, they recall multiple cascade of episodes.

[Timothy Alberino]

But what about like Freud, you know, when Freud comes around and he's developing psychoanalysis and all of a sudden it turns out every woman in the world got raped by her father? I don't mean to make light of it because some women, like a very small number of women, are raped by their father, but the numbers that Freud is talking about are just totally implausible.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yeah, like mass psychosis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's. And that was the contention early on by skeptics is this is just some sort of, some sort of mass psychosis, you know, like a collective hallucination. But if so, that's almost as equally fascinating. But again, the problem is all of the physical evidence.

[Timothy Alberino]

Physical evidence?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yeah, that's the problem. All of the physical evidence is that.

[Timothy Alberino]

You know, there's this. As I say, I don't buy aliens at all, but I have many good friends who.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, you haven't read my book yet.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, I haven't made it all the way through, so maybe I'll believe it. But though it is on my desk, I had to make it through War and Peace first, so that'll be a nice refreshing break after that. But, you know, I have friends who believe in this, some of whom are in this very building. One of them is a tall lumberjack looking fellow with planet shirts. But some of them are much more credible people. Members of Congress, you know, are on these committees who started out skeptical of the whole UFO thing and now they kind of believe in it. And so I guess I, I kind of. I'm willing to keep a slightly open mind on all of it, but it's pretty wacky sounding.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yeah, I mean, it's extraordinary. It's extraordinary. It's difficult to believe, but again, when you familiarize yourself, when you become conversant in the research, in the material not accrued by tinfoil hat nut jobs.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

By highly credentialed professionals. It's conclusive. The data is conclusive.

[Timothy Alberino]

So what's the upshot of it? Let's say it's all real. What are the gray things? You say they're nefarious. What are they trying to do? If I'm reading this as a story, history is a story, in fact written by God. Then what's the conclusion?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

What's the punchline of it's apparent that they're creating alien human hybrids that are indistinguishable from us.

[Timothy Alberino]

Okay.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

That they appear to be integrating into human society.

[Timothy Alberino]

Okay, so what's the evidence for that?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, I mean, I would refer you to Dr. David Jacobs book, Walking Among Us. Jacob's one of the premier abduction researchers, and he believes, by the way, that the ultimate goal is what he calls planetary acquisition. Which is a fancy way of saying they're here to take over.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Something like that is afoot. Something like that is underway. I have no doubt that A, the abduction phenomenon is real, and B, the breeding program is real. In other words, they are creating alien human hybrids.

[Timothy Alberino]

Okay, so if that's true and they intend to inject all of these, presumably they all look like Mark Zuckerberg, these hybrids, but they are injected into human society. Why not just beam the lady up, impregnate her with the alien stuff, and then send her back down and let her just give birth to the weird hybrid baby? Why do you have to beam her up again? Take the baby out, put him in a spaceship, and then drop him in a field somewhere. I don't know, how do they even integrate them?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Because the project is clandestine. They don't want us to know what they're doing.

[Timothy Alberino]

But if the lady just gave birth. She wouldn't. She thinks she's just like, you know.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

If women started giving birth to hybrids all over the world, then that would raise. Obviously raise an alarm.

[Timothy Alberino]

But they look like us, don't they? Or do they not look like us?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, so initially it seems that they've been developing, perfecting the hybrid over time. So over the decades, remember, this goes back to. Most likely goes back to the late 19th century. Mid to late 19th century. So the idea is that they've been working to perfect an alien human hybrid that can integrate seamlessly into human society. And that would be, for all intents and purposes, completely indistinguishable from homegrown human beings. Okay, so that is a clear and present threat.

[Timothy Alberino]

Why would it start in the late 19th century? Why wouldn't it start 5,000 years ago?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I don't know why it would start then.

[Timothy Alberino]

But you're saying this indication.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

There's indications that the abduction phenomenon goes back to that timeframe.

[Timothy Alberino]

Okay.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

But probably not before that.

[Timothy Alberino]

So then they're trying to perfect it. So who are they? If they walk among us and they're weird, you know, half gray lizard leather skinned people and half people people who are they just. Is it just like Joe on the street?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

So I'm not sure how advanced they are at this point, but again, I'm going to reference Dr. Jacobs book Walking Among Us. I forget when he wrote that. I think about a decade ago or more, it seems that the. What he calls advanced stage hybrids, the ones that look like us. Because as I said, it's been. Let's say there's a spectrum of hybridization. In the beginning, the hybrids looked not so much like us, more like the aliens and less like us. In other words, they had overly large head and eyes and scraggly hair and. And were very, very spindly limbs. They look like the Grays more than they look like us. And over time, would they have looked.

[Timothy Alberino]

Like they had elongated skulls and big eyes and three fingers?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Not elongated skulls, just overly large heads, bulbous heads with eyes that are too big and.

[Timothy Alberino]

But as if they looked more like.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

The Grays than us.

[Timothy Alberino]

But you wouldn't be drawing a connection between, like.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

No, I'm not. No, I'm not. I'm not. Even though it's gonna seem like it for someone who watches this interview from beginning to end. But no, I'm not. I'm not drawing a correlation here between the Nazca tridactyl beings and alien abductors.

[Timothy Alberino]

But. So you're saying, okay, 100 years ago they tried it and they looked too much like aliens. Why do we think that?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

That's what has been documented in the data from abductees. So in the beginning, you know, going back to the 70s and 80s, the hybrids looked more like the aliens, and they didn't have, you know, they didn't have. His personality was not as developed like a human being.

[Timothy Alberino]

But where are the abductees encountering these beings? Is it a spaceship? Okay, all right, okay. It's not at the grocery store because then we would have seen them.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, I think at this point, that's a distinct possibility. Have you been to Walmart? Fair point, fair point. So the idea is now you believe.

[Timothy Alberino]

I know. Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Now you, now you're thinking, wait, wait a minute. It definitely feels.

[Timothy Alberino]

Few places I've been that's not quite human. But. So then they're integrating these beings into. And the upshot is, what are they gonna, you know, is it the presidents of the United States are all lizards or is it. No, no, it's Sutlers.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

No, no, no, no. I don't subscribe to the cause.

[Timothy Alberino]

I've heard that theory.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

The lizard thing. No, yeah. No, I don't know. I mean, I don't know exactly what the objective is, except I would agree with Dr. Jacobs in that the ultimate objective is planetary acquisition. It's conquest by stealth, and nobody really knows what they're up to. I do believe that elements of the United States government are completely aware of this and are maybe hopefully trying to figure out what's happening, what the ultimate. What the end game is.

[Timothy Alberino]

On your point about the Grayson and the synchronized recollections. I've never done psychedelic drugs in my life. I have a number of friends who have. And I have heard stories of people seeing weird little gray alien looking demon kind of things on alternately gray or green, but they sound like a popular description of an alien. And I think psychedelics are very bad. And I don't encourage people to do it. I think it opens you up to bad spiritual things. But I do buy their experience. I think they're experiencing something real and nefarious and similar to what you're describing. Do you think there is a connection between these two perceived phenomena?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

That's a very interesting question. I think that. Remember I said that the aliens implant screen memories so that when an abductee attempts conscious recall, they're presented with a false memory first. In order to get to the real memory, they have to circumvent that false memory. Well, I mentioned there's a number of ways that the techniques that people use to do this. One of them is hypnotic regression. I think what happens with a lot of people who take psychedelics, ayahuasca, psilocybin, that encounter the typical gray alien, what's happening is that they are unintentionally circumventing screen memories and they're. These real memories are suddenly surfacing. So the psychedelic is causing their subconscious to bring up real memories that relate to their abduction episodes. That's one thing that I think may be happening. There's some other possibilities there as well.

[Timothy Alberino]

That's it. Because rather than. My view of it was they're taking these drugs, they think they're hallucinating something, but it's. Sometimes they think they're piercing through the veil, man, and they're seeing something. But my view is they are seeing something that is real, spiritual, not corporeal, but spiritual and bad and nefarious. But what you're saying is. No, no, no. They're not seeing something real. They're hallucinating something that comes from a real memory that they have suppressed of a physical phenomenon.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yes, I think that that's interesting.

[Timothy Alberino]

That's like the. That's the mirror image of my view of it. But it is connected. They are there.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

There's a lot I could say about psychedelics. I think that you Know, in my opinion, what happens, this is just a theory of mine, what happens when you take psychedelics is let's imagine that there's an Internet of consciousness.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Okay. And we can think, we're very familiar with this idea because we have the actual Internet.

[Timothy Alberino]

Right.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And you can be sitting here in Nashville, I can be sitting in Bozo Montana. And even though we are hundreds of miles apart, you and I could be interfacing as if we were in the same room. So essentially our consciousness. Our consciousness is. Our sentience is interfacing over. I mean, instantaneous, despite physical distance. Despite the physical distance. And in the same way, I think it might be that there is like an Internet of consciousness and when you take a psychedelic, you plug into it. And if there are other things, let's say non human entities who are plugged into this Internet of consciousness, then you can interface with them. It's like a mode of a platform that facilitates communication. And again, because we live in the modern age, this isn't that far fetched. I mean, we do the same thing. We just do it through.

[Timothy Alberino]

I mean, the telephone does it. It's not even that new technology.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

We do it through the agency of technology.

[Timothy Alberino]

And like the Internet, just as a raw numbers thing, most of the things you're going to encounter are probably very bad for you.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I would agree with that. And I think that's why, precisely why it's so dangerous.

[Timothy Alberino]

That's okay.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I think we're playing with fire. I think that people are interfacing with intelligences that are vastly superior to them and also incalculably older than the human species. And so we're playing with fire. When you interface with those kinds of entities, you subject yourself to manipulation. You open yourself up to manipulation. I think this is part of the reason why in the Hebrew Old Testament there's a prohibition of contact with these.

[Timothy Alberino]

Kinds of entities trying to interface with the dead or with demons or whatever.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Divination.

[Timothy Alberino]

I always say, I always say the reason even many modern Christians will say, oh, that's all bunk. Psychics and the occult and everything. I don't think that God prohibits it because it's a waste of your time.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Right.

[Timothy Alberino]

I think he prohibits it because it's bad for you and real.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

That's right. And again, having a casual conversation about alien abduction like this, it makes me sound like a nut job. But you have to understand, as I keep saying, and this is what I want the audience to understand, there is a, again, I'm going to use the word conclusive body of Evidence. There are millions of people who have the exact same testimony, physical evidence. And it's probably, you know, people that we all know, some of these individuals. So you have, I'm sure going to be listening to this, to this discussion. You have a lot of people who are going to be thinking, this guy is completely. This dude's a whack job. He's got the emphasis on this a.

[Timothy Alberino]

Little bit right now. If you, if it's 2% of the population, if you think you've had an experience like this, I want to see it in the comments.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Oh, God.

[Timothy Alberino]

I want to see it and I want to hear. I want details in the comments.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, I doubt you'll get details, but, but then you'll have a portion of the audience watching this. Who's going, oh, my God, that's me.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. I want, I want that story in the comments.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And I wouldn't be sitting here saying that if that were not the case. I've read, I know the data and I interact with abductees and it conforms precisely with.

[Timothy Alberino]

Look, in principle, something like what you're describing I'm not necessarily opposed to. Because the sons of God, you know, mated with the daughters of men. And I believe that. So, all right, we've done the weird three finger things in Peru and we've done the gray men and the hybrids. Before I let you go, I know we're running long, but that's how it goes. And you still have a little cigar left.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I still have, yeah. This is the hourglass.

[Timothy Alberino]

This is, that's how I measure a lot of my time and work, actually, and recreation. Giants. So there are these. You see giants in mythology, you see giants in the Bible, you see giants, some kind of giant like thing. And you see giants in all of the weird Internet forums where they say they've discovered giants in random places all over the world. Do you believe in that?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And what is that working within the biblical framework here? Within the biblical context, what was humanity, what was mankind created to do? Fundamentally, what were we created to do? I contend that we were created for two purposes. Two primary purposes. Number one, to fellowship in the family of God, to commune with our maker.

[Timothy Alberino]

Walk in the garden with God.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Precisely to, to enjoy the presence of our maker. Yeah, yep. And to communicate with other intelligent beings that are, that are, that are part of the family who I, in my book, I designate as the sons of God. We are also going to become sons of God. Those of us who believe in Christ, we're going to be given the power to become the sons of God. That power, by the way, is the resurrection.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yep.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

So. But there are other sons of God who you referenced earlier, right. In regard to the giants.

[Timothy Alberino]

The giants, yes. This is the other. We've gone through the Peruvian three fingered things and we've hit the little gray men. But this is the last bit before. I know I've kept you late, but what about the giants which not, you know, appear in mythology, in the Bible, in random Internet reports and then we'll.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Transition to that because this is a very important point and I think you might agree with what I'm about to say. So we were created to interface with our maker, to commune with the maker. That's our primary purpose. Secondarily. The second purpose is to govern the earth. I mean, this is working from the biblical paradigm. Right.

[Timothy Alberino]

Name the animals.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Exactly. To govern the earth, to be a vice regent for the king of heaven on planet Earth. That's what we were supposed to do. So if, if human beings, if our original design, if Adam was created, designed to interface with his maker and his elder siblings, again, who I believe our elder siblings are the sons of God who pre exist us. And we'll talk about them in a minute. Then what kind of communicative capacity do we have? I mean, what does that mean? Because we know that communication with God, those of us who are of the Christian faith, we believe that communication with God is. It goes beyond the modulation of our vocal cords. The way that we communicate with each other is verbally through speech. But all Christians believe, whether they know it or not, that they can commune with the Father on a different level, on a spiritual level. Right. Because we know that prayer. You can pray. A mute can still pray.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, of course. And even, you know, like our Lord gives us the Lord's Prayer in the Gospels and he says, when you pray, say, our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. I hope most of us out there know the prayer. And if you don't learn it and pray it. So there is spoken prayer or silent prayer, but that's still mediated by language. Just.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

That's right.

[Timothy Alberino]

Beings. The only way we can communicate is by language because we're incarnate creatures. But there is also a kind of meditative prayer that does not necessarily require language, even in your own mind.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Right. But it's still a mode of communication, is it not? So if we were created to interface and communicate with our maker, then that means that we have capabilities that we don't really acknowledge, we don't really think about as abilities that are innate to the human species. And I think some of this. We designate this as psychic.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

So in other words, I would say, I believe that the human species is fundamentally a telepathic species. I think that Adam and Eve were telepathic. That they. Again, but then why they have ears? Remembering. Well, remembering that we were created to interface with the maker. Right. I mean, that's fundamentally what we were created to do. So I think that we have communication capabilities that. That. That we've forgotten that. That are latent. And I think that some of this is stimulated when people take psychedelics. So when people activate something in their brain through a chemical compound like ayahuasca or psilocybin, they reawaken some latent ability to communicate in a way that transcends verbal.

[Timothy Alberino]

But are we not. Not to. Not to be pedantic or obsessive on the point, but it always seems to me that we were made to speak, meaning we have bodies, we have vocal cords, we have mouths, we have tongues and ears. God tells us to name the animals and everything, all the plants and everything, and two bodies, Adam and Eve say, in order to communicate with each other. It doesn't seem to me they would communicate telepathically. I think they'd communicate in time and space.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I think they do both. I think they do both. Ironically, the human species is. Or rather I should probably say the post human species that's coming is going to communicate at the speed of thought because of technology.

[Timothy Alberino]

Right, right. And actually there is a parallel. When a couple's been married for a long time, they kind of can read each other's minds. You don't really. You can have conversations.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

We know that we are empathic because we know that animals are empathic. Certain animals are empathic. Like people have. Their pets, especially dogs, know they can discern the emotional state of the owner. Yeah, yeah. And there's a lot of research on that. Your pet, your dog especially, can sometimes detect things, your emotional state, even if you are not consciously displaying that you're sad or depressed or something like that. So that's like there's something there. There's something metaphysical happening that we don't really understand. It's connected to consciousness. And I think these are innate abilities that we've lost because we have degraded. We have, you know, the original prototype of our species was much more magnificent than we are. I mean, Adam and Eve weren't. You know, we are.

[Timothy Alberino]

They were Incorrupt. They didn't know.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Exactly. We are really crappy versions of Adam.

[Timothy Alberino]

And indeed, in the resurrection which you mentioned, you know, when our Lord is resurrected, sometimes even his best friends have trouble quite recognizing Him. He's in a body. He's a body.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

He's in his body.

[Timothy Alberino]

His human beings are body. Yeah, but it's a glorified body which has all these traits that are unreal.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

But he still has the marks of the crucifixion.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yes, you can touch it. Thomas can touch it.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

That's right.

[Timothy Alberino]

But also he can walk through doors and also he can traverse vast distances immediately. And also all these qualities which St. Thomas Aquinas describes in great detail of the glorified body. So I'm totally on board with that. Now you mentioned that we have these elder siblings going way, way back to the old garden days. And you identify them with the giants or no?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, we are introduced in the biblical narrative to these beings who are identified as the sons of Go. And in Job we read that the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were being laid. So this communicates pre existence. So there's these beings who are sons of God. And that terminology is not incidental. This familial terminology in the Bible is not incidental. It's there for a reason. It's communicating that there's a family and there were sons of God in existence in the universe before the creation of Adam. But Christ was shouting for joy when the foundations of the earth were being laid.

[Timothy Alberino]

But Christ is the only begotten Son of God.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Christ is the only begotten Son of God. He's the preeminent son.

[Timothy Alberino]

Begotten. I guess begotten is an important word there.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

He's the preeminent son. So there are sons of God according to the biblical narrative that clearly preexist us. They're not us. They're not part of the human species. They are both preexistent and preeminent. And they're heavenly beings, let's say angels. They're angelic beings. Yeah. The word angel is a description of occupation rather than a classification kind. Right. So angel just means messenger, an envoy, one who is sent. In fact, in the Old Testament, human beings are described as angels when they're functioning. The capacity of an envoy. Angel in Hebrew is malak and in Greek is angelos. It just means a messenger.

[Timothy Alberino]

Right. And to bring up St. Thomas again, as I like to do, there are this classification of all of these different beings and what we describe as angels are sort of like the lowest tier of them. So there are all these other Araphim.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And cherubim, and among them are the sons of God. Right. So getting to the topic of the giants, you referenced Genesis 6 and this is one of the references to the sons of God is in Genesis 6 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful and they decided to take wives from among them and they copulated with them and the women conceived and gave birth to giants. This is what's being referenced in Genesis 6. And I think that Genesis that, that story, that narrative is elaborated on in the book of Enoch, first Enoch, which we talked about last time. And that story, the gods descending to the earth, copulating with human, becoming enamored of human women, copulating with them. The women conceive and give birth to giants as that's like the flood myths. It's ubiquitous across all of the primary civilizations on earth.

[Timothy Alberino]

So now are they. Because some would read that and say, well, this is, you know, describing the age of the heroes or something or it's not. Doesn't literally mean physically gigantic, but well.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

According to the Bible, they're giants.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, sure. Do these beings relate to, you know, reports of some giant skeleton found in North America or something or. No. Is that different?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yes.

[Timothy Alberino]

Tie it all into like the little guys in Peru and all. Is it the same thing?

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

No, I don't know that I could tie it into that specifically, but at.

[Timothy Alberino]

Least the big guys in North America.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

So in Genesis 6 you read that the Nephilim, the giants were in the earth in those days and also after that. And then when you read the Old Testament, you find this allusion to the antediluvian, the pre flood giants that resulted from the sons of God breeding with the daughters of men and producing this hybrid race of giants. Again, that story, there's an expanded version of that story in the Book of Enoch. And then you have giants in the post flood world. You have the giants who are inhabiting the promised land, who Joshua's contending with. Joshua and the Hebrews are contending with giants in the promised land. Of course, you have Goliath and so forth and you have legends of giants all over the earth. And so yes, I do believe that those giants, that that's the lineage of the original giants from the pre flood world. Those are the Nephilim or the offspring, the descendants of the Nephilim. And they have various names, like the different descendants of the Nephilim in the Old Testament, like the Anakim, for example. And so those giants are the direct relatives of the original ones that were produced through the union of angels and humans, the sons of God and the daughters of men.

[Timothy Alberino]

So then the ones that people dig up now all over the world, those. They would have died pre flood or.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

No, not necessarily, no. I mean the giants that the ancient Hebrews contended with were after the flood. And I mean there's. So here in the United States, back in the, at the turn of the century, the turn of the 20th century, newspapers all over the country were reporting the discovery of the remains of gigantic humanoids of giants, primarily being discovered in the mounds. And at one time there was tens of thousands of mounds east of the Mississippi. And in some of those mounds, even according to the Smithsonian's own records, there were people, the remains of people of unusually large stature were discovered. And some of this is documented right in the Smithsonian's records. And nobody knows what happened to the bones. I suspect that, that they've been secreted away to some repository that the Smithsonian has somewhere, probably in Washington D.C. and you find similar accounts all over the world. I mean, I've investigated giants in various parts of the world, Peru as well. And in Peru there's. The history of the conquest of Peru comes from a collection of documents that were written by the priests, primarily by the priests who came to the New World after the conquest or who came with the conquistadors.

[Timothy Alberino]

Oh, right, you're not saying. Not the indigenous priests of New York.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

No, no, no, the Catholic priests came over and they were involved in an enterprise to extirpate idolatry in Peru. And these are the records from which we derive the history of the conquest of the Inca Empire, those same historical documents. And this is just to give you an example of how pervasive this is. And I was in Peru investigating giants and megaliths and stuff like that years ago, and I met with a well known, a prestigious archaeologist at the time he was giving, not at the time that I met with him, but he was about to travel to Washington D.C. and give a lecture on the Inka. His last name was de la Vega. And I remember interviewing him in a coffee shop in Puno and I asked him, are there any references to giants in the historical records of Peru? And the historians, they have access to the digital files of the originals, right, that are in a library in Lima. And he goes, I don't think so. I'm not familiar with any of that. I said, okay. So I go back to my hotel and the next morning, we're getting ready to leave and head out to film something. And he comes walking into the hotel and he's got a big smile on his face. And he said, you know, you got me wondering about this question of whether or not there's accounts of giants in the historical record. So I went into the record, into the digital files, and I did a search just to see. And he said, I can't believe how many accounts there are of giants in the historical record. He said, this is just a sample of them. I quickly highlighted some for you. And he gave me a cd. And when I looked at the cd, it was all these different chroniclers from different periods from the days immediately following the conquest in the 1530s all the way up to the 1600s. And he had gone in and highlighted. And this was not all of them. This was just the ones that he quickly went in and found for me because he was curious. And there were dozens of references to the bones of giants that were discovered all over Peru. And we're not talking about giant sloths. We're not talking about dinosaur bones. We are clearly talking about humanoids.

[Timothy Alberino]

I mentioned St. Augustine earlier. St. Augustine claims to have discovered the tooth of a giant. A molar of a giant. Says it would be the size of 50 human molars or something like that.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yeah. And I'll give you an example. In one case, a specific example, I believe this comes from the records. And I could be wrong about this from a priest named Arriaga. I could be wrong about. There was a bunch of different guys who wrote in the aftermath of the conquest whose works. That's the historical documentation from which we derive the history of the conquest of Peru. And in this particular case, after the Spaniards conquered Peru, in the wake of that conquest came two groups. You had the representatives of the Church of Rome, the priests. And then you had. Coming with them, you had the representatives of the Spanish crown. They were called the bicitadores. And so these individuals came to Peru. The priests were interested, obviously, in converting the populace to Catholicism. And the visitadores were there to keep an eye on things for the king of Spain, because there was something called the royal fifth. A fifth of all the treasure had to go back to the Crown. Right. So they were there, and they were making very meticulous records. Right. And there was a program of extirpation of idolatry, in other words, the extermination of idolatry among the indigenous people in Peru. And it was systematic. They would go from town to town and what they would do, the priests, the visitadores, and their cadre of whoever was with them, probably soldiers and so forth, and they would go into a village and they would inquire of the indigenous people. They would want to know what their huaca was. And a huaca in Peru is a sacred place. It could be an object, it could be a place. It's what the indigenous people are worshiping, what they're venerating. And so they, in often cases, they're idols, right? Or altars or something like this. And so in this program of extirpation of idolatry, they would identify what's being worshiped and then they would destroy it. Right. The priests and the bisitadores are there because they're also collecting artifacts of gold and silver, whatever else, and they are meticulously recording these events. And in one case, they walked into a village, and it's usually like an idol that they burn or an altar, like I said, that they'll destroy. But in this one particular case, they walk into a village and they inquire of the villagers, of the indigenous people what their waka was, where are their gods that they're worshiping.

[Timothy Alberino]

And.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And because they didn't see any altar and there was no indication of what they were worshiping, and the natives told them that their huaca or their idols were in the cave, were in a cave. So the priest and the visitadores, the representatives of the crown, they went into the cave and they record that. The priest specifically records that when they went into the cave, the first thing they encountered was, and these are his words, dead gentiles laying on the ground. And they surmised that they had been sacrificed.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

So they penetrate further into the cave, and what do they find? They find that the villagers were worshiping three gigantic corpses that had been seated. Like they're seated in a sitting position and they're dressed in cumbia. And cumbia is like the traditional garb of the indigenous people. And I don't remember if it was arriaga, but it was. One of the priest records that the bodies were six times the size of a normal man. And they had the bodies removed from the cave and burned in the village. That's right out of the same documents that we derive the history of the conquest of Peru. And that's just one of dozens of examples of the bodies of giants being discovered in Peru post conquest. And the same can be said. And it's very reminiscent of what was happening here in the United States with the Smithsonian Now Some of that. And I think we need to make a note here that some of the accounts of giants being discovered in the mounds, maybe even the majority of the accounts, were sensationalized.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, of course.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Because back in the. You know, back at the turn of the century here in America, obviously newspapers, there's a lot of competition, and so they would sensationalize stories.

[Timothy Alberino]

But, you know, private revelation and miracles really do happen and are inexplicable by natural means. And also, plenty of people dream things up and have hoaxes. The fact that there are hoaxes and hallucinations does not negate the fact that there's no.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And I have no doubt. And I have no doubt that although there was a lot of sensationalization happening in the periodicals back at the turn of the century, a lot of those stories were true, certainly the ones that were recorded by the Smithsonian itself. Right. I went to Sardinia. I've investigated giants on the island of Sardinia on three separate occasions. And Sardinia is ground zero for anyone who's interested in investigating giants, or at least it used to be. Because in Sardinia you have people, or you did at least a decade or so ago when I was there, and I've been back and forth, but I was interviewing a lot of the villagers in Sardinia. A lot of the people living in Sardinia, by the way, is the island south of Corsica. It's part of Italy.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, yeah. But it's kind of its own thing.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Western Mediterranean.

[Timothy Alberino]

They're Italian, sort of. But it's kind of its own thing.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Right. They have kind of their own separate culture for the mainland Italians. Beautiful island, by the way. Beautiful people. And I'm traveling all around Sardinia interviewing people, and I am hearing contemporary stories from people who have themselves dug up the bones of giants. And of course, the skeptics will say, no, no, no, no. They were digging up mastodons and giant sloths and so forth. No. There was a time in Sardinia when they were engaging in a process of industrialization, and they were updating their roads, and they were digging out foundations for buildings, and. And I think this began sometime around the 40s, and it continued for a few decades. And people were beginning to use mechanized forms of agriculture. So rather than the horse and plow, they were now getting tractors and digging deeper into their soil. And during this period of time, it was not uncommon for the people out there in their. Digging up their fields to. In the process of doing that, to unearth the bones of giants. And it was common knowledge. These were the old timers I was talking to. So a lot of these people have probably since passed away. One of the guys I talked to was like 101 years old, telling me stories like this. I talked to dozens of people in Sardinia, and they would dig up these bones. And when they would dig up, let's say they're plowing, they're filled with a tractor. They dig up skeletal remains, unusually large skeletal remains. They would always get excited, and the first thing that they would do is they would look for the hands. Why? Because oftentimes the hands had rings, the fingers had rings, golden rings or silver or precious jewels. And they would. They wanted to take the rings and.

[Timothy Alberino]

Take it off plastic. Italians, they got a priceless discovery. And what do they do? They go for the gold.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Well, I'm Italian too. I'm Italian American. So we're not talking about giant sloths here. We're not talking about dinosaurs. Last time I checked, dinosaurs don't wear jewelry. And they would often find pendants around the neck, bracelets. And they would keep it quiet, obviously, because they didn't want people from the university to come and take the artifacts that they had discovered.

[Timothy Alberino]

I love the idea. Not to make too much light of this is very interesting. And I buy this. I was a little more skeptical on the green men, but I buy this stuff. Grey man, but I love the idea that the Sardinian giants, the Italian giants, unlike the Peruvian ones or whatever, the North American ones, they just look like my grandpa, basically. They got like gold chains and bracelets and stuff.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Yeah. And it was. I heard so many stories, so many stories. I'll give you one example. There's a church in Sardinia and a very old church called Anastasia. And it's in the province of Sadra. And as is common around the world, Catholic churches and cathedrals are often built on top of temples. Pagan temples.

[Timothy Alberino]

Yeah, whatever the old one was.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Exactly. And so a lot of Catholic churches are sitting on ruins. And certainly in Sardinia this is the case. And the church of Anastasia is sitting on neurogic ruins. And the neurogic culture is a very ancient culture. It's very mysterious. I think it's Canaanitish. And the neurogic people were megalith builders. They built over 30,000 megalithic towers on the island of Sardinia. On one island, over 30,000 megalithic towers in the Cyclopean style. Last time we talked about Cyclopean architecture, albeit cruder than what you find, for example, in Peru and Sacsayhuaman and so forth, which was the topic for our last discussion. And aside from the towers, there was also Hundreds of megalithic tombs. And these tombs to this day are called the tombs of the giants. And the tombs and the towers, they're associated. Oftentimes, you'll find. If you find a tomb of the giant, you'll find the remains of a tower which are called Nuragi. Nuragi are the towers. And some of These towers were 100ft tall, stone towers built in the Cyclopean megalithic style. And so the church of Anastasia was built on top of one of these nuragi complexes. And I interviewed two individuals who were hired by the university in Khajeti, the capital of Sardinia. They were hired to excavate at the site. And the procedure was that they would go. They were going to excavate the Nuragi ruins, the Nuragic ruins in the vicinity of the church. The church is literally sitting right on top of the site. It's just a small church, like a chapel almost. I've been there. And the procedure was they would. And they worked at two different times. One worked from, like, I don't recall, off the top of my head, the dates that they were there. I think one was, like, late 80s, and then the other one worked in the early 90s. So they were not working contemporaneously. These are two different testimonies from two different individuals who worked two different periods of time at the same site. And the procedure was that they would excavate the ruins, and all of the artifacts would go into the church. So they set up tables on the church, they'd excavate the ruins, and whatever artifacts they found would be deposited into the church. And then somebody mysteriously would come at night and remove all the artifacts. Well, they discovered lots of the typical neurogic artifacts that one finds in Sardinia. But among these mundane artifacts, they were uncovering the bodies, the skeletal remains of giants routinely. And when we say giants, we're talking individuals who are 9 to 15ft tall, really, let's say 9, 10, 11, and 12ft tall, primarily from their descriptions. And they described to me in great detail what they were discovering and how they would take the different parts of the body. Sometimes the skeletal remains were very well preserved, and they would deposit them in the church. I remember one of the individuals told me that his wife was working with him one day, and they're excavating, and they discovered this large skull, and it still had the vertebrae attached, and it was so large that it took both of them to carry it into the church. So he had the skull in his arms, and she was carrying the vertebrae, and they went and deposited into the church. And sometimes they would find entire skeletons and lay them out in the church. He found three skeletons. I forget which of these two individuals found three skeletons together. And all of them were at least nine feet long. And he even informed his bosses from the university, hey, I found these gigantic skeletons. What do I do with them? Because the church was getting filled up with artifacts. They were extracting so many artifacts. The church was just getting filled up with artifacts. And the person informed him, lay the skeletons out in the yard next to the church. And they did that. They laid three skeletons out, nine feet tall each, and the next morning they were gone. Both of these individuals, again, not working contemporaneously, working, one in the late 90s or one in the late 80s and the other in the early 90s at the same site. And they discovered they unearthed gigantic chalices and gigantic plates. The one individual told me that they were trying to open, that they were excavating a tower, one of these, the remains of a nuragi tower. And it was sealed, and they were able to open it up. And they went inside. And he said that when they walked inside with their flashlights or crawled inside, they were confronted with this gigantic humanoid sitting at a table. And he was dead. And he was very well preserved. It was like he was hermetically sealed inside of this. Whatever happened, he got hermetically sealed inside of this tower, and he's dead, seated at a gigantic table, sitting on a gigantic chair. And in front of him was a gigantic plate and a gigantic chalice. And on the plate were oysters that he had been eating. And he estimated that this guy had to be about 12ft tall, and he was very well preserved. And they took that body and they laid it out in the church, and the next day it was gone. And he even told me one time, one of these particular individuals told me that they were running out of room to put the artifacts, because they were told strictly to put all of the artifacts in the church, except for, in that case, with those bodies, skeletons. And they were getting frustrated because they were filling up the church with artifacts so quickly. They needed more space. So he went to talk to his boss and he said, hey, we need another place to put artifacts. Can we, like, is there like, another building that we can rent or something? And this person, his boss, inexplicably became very agitated and told him, mind your effing business. Just put the artifacts in the church and shut your mouth.

[Timothy Alberino]

A very Italian response.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

And so he even told me, one of the individuals told me the name of a professor that they were working with from the University of Kajeti who was fully aware of what was being unearthed at the Church of Anastasia.

[Timothy Alberino]

I want to know what happened with the giant skeletons and all the artifacts. But I've kept you too long, so I think that has to be the cliffhanger for our next conversation.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

I've got a lot more stories about giants, so that's. We'll have to do a part three.

[Timothy Alberino]

In the meantime, go get the book. Birthright. Timothy Alberino. Thank you, sir.

[Dr. Jordan B. Peterson]

Thank you, sir. My pleasure.