New EVIDENCE: Head Cloth of Jesus FOUND? The Sudarium of Oviedo | Michael & Pt. 2

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Michael Knowles Show – "New EVIDENCE: Head Cloth of Jesus FOUND? The Sudarium of Oviedo | Michael & Pt. 2"

Episode Overview

In this compelling episode of The Michael Knowles Show, host Michael Knowles delves deep into the historical and scientific discussions surrounding two of Christianity's most revered relics: the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo. Joined by guest Doug Powell and scholar Jeremiah, the episode presents new evidence challenging conventional carbon-14 dating and explores the intricate details that may affirm the authenticity of these artifacts. Released on May 11, 2025, the episode promises an engaging analysis that bridges faith, history, and science.

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1. Debunking Carbon-14 Dating and Introducing the Sudarium Replica

[00:31 – 04:12]

Michael Knowles opens the discussion by addressing the controversial carbon-14 dating of the Sudarium of Oviedo, suggesting that recent evidence may debunk previous conclusions. He states:

"This debunks the carbon 14 dating. This is a replica of the Sudarium of Oviedo. Jesus dies at around 3pm on the cross. He's hanging there. He's dead. That is when they wrap his face with the sudarium..."
— Michael Knowles [00:31]

Doug Powell concurs, emphasizing the historical significance of the Sudarium beyond its carbon-14 dating:

"The Sudarium of Oviedo does not actually go all the way back to the first century. That actually it's just from the ninth century according to radiocarbon dating. But what's a real rub for this claim is that we have a definitive history of the sudarium going back to the 6th century..."
— Doug Powell [01:04]

Michael introduces a replica of the Sudarium in the studio, enhancing the tangible discussion:

"We've brought the Sudarium, a replica of it for your studio for this program."
— Michael Knowles [01:48]

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2. Pollen Evidence and Historical Provenance

[04:12 – 10:11]

Jeremiah elaborates on the pollen analysis that links the Sudarium to specific geographic regions, reinforcing its historical authenticity:

"There's pollen from around Oviedo, Toledo, and even North Africa like Alexandria. This aligns with the documentary evidence placing the Sudarium in these regions before arriving in Spain around 711 AD."
— Jeremiah [08:50]

Doug Powell highlights the challenges skeptics face in dismissing the Sudarium as a medieval forgery, given the robust historical and pollen data:

"If we know for a fact that we can place this in antiquity, and skeptics are arguing it's a medieval forgery, then how do the images match perfectly? Did some medieval forger know about the sudarium?"
— Doug Powell [10:11]

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3. Visual and Physical Correspondence Between the Sudarium and Shroud of Turin

[10:12 – 28:01]

The discussion shifts to the intricate physical correlations between the Sudarium and the Shroud. Jeremiah explains the matching bloodstains and blood types:

"The blood type is AB, which is also the type on the shroud. It's postmortem blood, which matches the circumstances of Jesus' death and burial."
— Jeremiah [04:38]

Michael underscores the precision of these findings:

"This does make sense because then you would also say, if it were just part of the wrapping, why isn't there an image like there is on the shred?"
— Michael Knowles [04:33]

Doug Powell emphasizes the improbability of a medieval forger replicating these details accurately:

"If it were a forgery, it would have had to be the most detail-oriented forger ever to get exactly the right dust and blood match. It's almost preposterous to suggest."
— Doug Powell [20:48]

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4. Detailed Analysis of Crucifixion Practices and Shroud Authenticity

[28:01 – 35:33]

Michael and Doug delve into the historical context of Roman crucifixion practices, comparing them to the wounds depicted on the Shroud. Michael presents physical artifacts to illustrate his points:

"This is the temple tax coin... dating from the time of Pontius Pilate... a full shekel at 14 grams."
— Michael Knowles [15:15]

He further discusses the anatomical accuracy of the Shroud's representations:

"The Shroud gets it right. The penetration is perfectly in the wrists. A forger wouldn't have known this."
— Michael Knowles [19:08]

Doug adds to the authenticity by highlighting the number and placement of wounds:

"The tripartite wounds correspond to the wounds on the Shroud, matching the divine unity of the Godhead."
— Doug Powell [21:57]

Michael challenges the notion of forgery by emphasizing the unprecedented details captured on the Shroud:

"There is not a part of the body of Jesus that was not abused. Traumatized. Even in the pelvic region."
— Michael Knowles [22:02]

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5. Examination of Relics and Their Authenticity

[35:33 – 34:31]

The conversation transitions to other religious relics, contrasting their verifiability with that of the Sudarium and Shroud:

"I can't discount other relics, but the Sudarium and the Shroud can be scientifically studied, which makes them unique."
— Michael Knowles [33:17]

Doug Powell points out the limitations of other relics in terms of scientific testing:

"With other relics, like St. Anthony's bone, you can't test it. But with the Sudarium and the Shroud, you can."
— Doug Powell [34:31]

Michael asserts the unique position of these two relics in both faith and scientific communities:

"These two relics, the Sudarium and the Shroud, are both artifacts and relics that can be scientifically examined."
— Michael Knowles [33:50]

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6. Conclusion: Affirming the Resurrection Through Evidence

[34:31 – 35:33]

In his closing remarks, Michael connects the evidence discussed back to the foundational Christian belief in the resurrection:

"What I'm about to show you leaves this question beyond all doubt. Whether or not the man of the Shroud is Jesus... it must be a duck."
— Michael Knowles [28:01]

He emphasizes the importance of seeking truth and the peril of abandoning it for relativism:

"The most dangerous place a person can get is when you stop seeking truth, when you stop learning truth, because you then insert your own truth, which is relativism."
— Michael Knowles [28:01]

Doug Powell responds by highlighting the strength of faith supported by evidence:

"For those who have faith, no evidence is necessary. And to those without faith, no evidence is enough."
— Doug Powell [27:53]

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Notable Quotes:

• Michael Knowles [00:31]: "This debunks the carbon 14 dating... It remains on his face until they bring the body in the tomb where it is taken off and Jesus is wrapped with the shroud."

• Doug Powell [01:04]: "We have a definitive history of the sudarium going back to the 6th century, so we can actually just trace it in documents and in history."

• Jeremiah [08:50]: "Oviedo, Spain, since Oviedo was founded at the end of the 8th century... pollen from around Toledo and North Africa."

• Michael Knowles [19:08]: "The Shroud gets it right. The penetration is perfectly in the wrists. A forger wouldn't have known this."

• Doug Powell [32:07]: "The probability, the man of the Shroud, according to mathematician Bruno Barbaras, is anyone other than Jesus, is 1 in 200 billion."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Michael Knowles Show provides an in-depth exploration of the Sudarium of Oviedo and the Shroud of Turin, presenting evidence that challenges established carbon-14 dating and supports the authenticity of these relics. Through detailed analysis of pollen evidence, blood types, and historical crucifixion practices, Knowles and his guests make a compelling case for re-evaluating the origins of these artifacts. The episode not only appeals to those interested in the intersection of faith and science but also invites listeners to reflect on the enduring quest for truth.

Transcript

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[Michael Knowles]

This debunks the carbon 14 dating. This is a replica of the Sudarium of Oviedo. Jesus dies at around 3pm on the cross. He's hanging there. He's dead. That is when they wrap his face with the sudarium. It remains on his face until they bring the body in the tomb where it is taken off and Jesus is wrapped with the shroud. Or you already have your mind blown further, Michael.

[Doug Powell]

The shroud is not the only burial relic of our Lord. The other one, the other big one is the Sudarium of Oviedo.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes.

[Doug Powell]

And this is the head cloth. But I remember reading that the Sudarium of Oviedo does not actually go all the way back to the first century. That actually it's just from the ninth century according to radiocarbon dating. But what's a real rub for this claim is that we have a definitive history of the sudarium going back to the 6th century, so we can actually just trace it in documents and in history. So then you say, well, hold on. If the radiocarbon dating was that wrong and we know with certainty at least until the 6th century, then why do I believe the radiocarbon dating from the 80s, especially when there were all of these other methodological problems with it.

[Michael Knowles]

Exactly. And we've brought the Sudarium, a replica of it for your studio for. For this program.

[Doug Powell]

Oh, marvelous. Can we.

[Michael Knowles]

Absolutely. Thanks to Doug Powell. It's coming right now. Thanks to my good friend, scholar Doug Powell, who has brought his replica for us. This is a replica and I've never seen this until today. Michael, this is a replica of the Sudarium of Oviedo. And I want you to meet Doug Powell. Doug.

[Doug Powell]

Hey, how's it going? Michael, Nice to meet you. Yes, you as well. Thank you. Wow, this is good. Who else did you bring back? Yes, do we have any other relics.

[Jeremiah]

We brought a museum with.

[Michael Knowles]

That's right. That's right.

[Doug Powell]

I should have known though that if one travels around with a full scale replica of the Shroud of Turin, probably he's gonna be the kind of guy who has the Sudarium of a. So, okay, this is supposed to be the head cloth. My first question, when I even learned about the head cloth, which, you know, was kept separately from the Shroud, and, you know, they kind of have made their ways all around the world. Why would Christ's face be on the shroud? Wouldn't it only be on the head cloth? Isn't the fact that Christ's face is on the Shroud an argument against the Shroud?

[Michael Knowles]

It's not. Doug, go right ahead.

[Jeremiah]

Well, if you read John's account of the discovery with the Shroud, they also find the head cloth in a separate place. So there are other cloths than the burial cloth around Jesus. And so the fact that there is a head cloth means there's another cloth. And the fact that there's no face on it means that it wasn't in contact with whatever made the image on the shroud when the image got made. So it's separated at some point. And this is what is believed to be that clothes.

[Michael Knowles]

And what I might add is, so when was the cloth wiped? Wrapped around his face, Jesus dies at around 3pm on the cross. He's hanging there, he's dead. Jewish sensitivities are such that even the blood that's dripping from the body would want to be collected and not just out on the ground. So that is when they wrap his face with the sudarium, is when he's still on the cross, coming down from the cross, that remains on his face until they bring the body in the tomb where it is taken off and Jesus is wrapped with the shroud. Does that make sense, the timing?

[Doug Powell]

That does make sense. I've never. I've just never figured it out. That's never been presented to me before. But I suppose that would make sense because then you would also say, well, hold on, if it were just on the whole time or if it was just part of the wrapping, why isn't there an image 3D image like there is on the shred? Why isn't there one on the Sudari?

[Michael Knowles]

And Doug, I wonder if you would talk about the correspondence of the blood type or you already have your mind blown further. Michael?

[Doug Powell]

I am. Okay.

[Jeremiah]

Well, what you're looking at here is it's oriented so this particular stain, you can see there's three areas of stains. You have this one, this one and this one. This area right here was in direct contact with a face that matches exactly the face on the shroud. It's a one to one correspondence. And if you line up the nose, if you register the nose and then this kind of concentrated area of Blood is right around the mouth and the beard area. And you can see how it kind of hooks around like the beard does. And then this vertical area goes right down the bridge of the nose. And this would be on the forehead right here. This epsilon shape right here is the edge of this. And then you can see this blood stain corresponds here. And there are a number of other ones. That one corresponds there. And so if you do an overlay, like if you outline this and you put it right, right onto that, it's an exact match in size. Not just in size, but in blood type as well. First of all, scientists have been able to recreate this stain right here by taking a head, a glass head that is filled with blood, mixed with pulmonary edema, which is the fluid that's generated in the lungs during asphyxiation or other kind of torture or duress. That's the blood mixture that is on here. And that's also the blood mixture that you see in different places on the shroud. Like here. Six parts pulmonary edema to one part blood. So that's what's coming out of the lungs, and so that's what's coming out of his mouth of the man who had the sudarium wrapped around him. So it matches like that. It's also type ab, which is also the type on the shroud. It's also postmortem blood. And type AB is the rarest blood type. It's about three times more common in Mediterranean Jews than it is in Europeans.

[Doug Powell]

The eucharistic miracles.

[Michael Knowles]

Same.

[Jeremiah]

The type is always ab, ab, pretty amazing. So the idea is that the sudarium was affixed to the back of the head here. And if you look really close, you can see these holes where pins were put through to the hair. There is a ponytail shape funnel right here of his hair. And this is where it would have affixed to. And this butterfly shape fits right onto the ponytail. And then you can see these blood, little pinpoints of blood. Wounds match this exactly. And then it would wrap around the front, so it gets around to the front and makes contact with the face. But it's not wrapped all the way around the head because the face scientists have figured out is lulled forward and to the right like this. So they can't get it all the way around when he's on the cross. So they double it back and that's what creates that stain. So now it's folded back and they have determined his head was in this position for about 45 minutes to an hour. And then the body is Taken down and laid face down with the feet slightly elevated, which causes the blood to go down up the nose or down the nose and pull onto the forehead, which is what makes that. And he's in that position for 45 minutes to an hour. And so that gives enough time for Joseph of Arimathea to go get permission to bury the body. And then the body is flipped face up for about five minutes. And there are actually finger marks where somebody is reached over the back of the head to pinch the nose shut to hold the blood in as for about. And the body's in that position face up for about five minutes. And so if you've ever been to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, the space between Golgotha and the tomb is more than enough. You know, you can cover that in 90 seconds. And so that's where all the stains. That's how to make sense of the stains here.

[Doug Powell]

So, okay, we know the Sudarium comes from at least the 6th century. No one disputes that it's been in.

[Jeremiah]

Oviedo, Spain, since Oviedo was founded at the end of the 8th century. And so it's been in. The documentary evidence is that it enters Spain around 7 11, ahead of the Muslim invasion.

[Doug Powell]

Where was it? Do we know where it was before 7 11?

[Jeremiah]

Well, the documentary evidence actually matches the pollen evidence. And you'll get to the pollen evidence on the Shroud. But there's pollen on both the Shroud and the Sudarium. And the pollen on the Sudarium is from. So Oviedo is in the very northern part of Spain, kind of in the center of the coast, about 15 or 20 miles inland in the mountains of Asturias. So there's pollen from around there. There's pollen from around Toledo, right in the middle of Spain. And then there's pollen from North Africa, probably the area around Alexandria, which is where the documentary evidence says it was after Jerusalem and before Spain. And then there's pollen evidence from.

[Doug Powell]

So all of this, at the very least, we would have to say, not only from knowing where it was in the church, but even beforehand. The pollen and the documentary evidence that we're firmly in antiquity.

[Jeremiah]

Oh, yeah.

[Doug Powell]

And call it whatever, you know, whatever the 6th century, though many people would say, no, no, it actually goes to the first century.

[Jeremiah]

Right.

[Doug Powell]

But I guess my point is, if we know for a fact that we can place this in antiquity, and the skeptics of the Shroud of Turin are arguing that it's a medieval forgery, then how do the images match perfectly? Did some medieval forger know about the sudarium, maybe. And then just even if it were possible to create the image through artistic techniques, just managed to match it perfectly without anyone figuring it out.

[Jeremiah]

That's the fascinating thing this may be the key to in the case against the medieval dating of the Shroud. The final piece of the puzzle is connecting these two things, because we know of the existence of this definitely 600 years before the earliest date within the radiocarbon dating. So once we show this correspondence, and it's like I said, it's an exact match, that totally blows apart the idea that the Shroud was created 600 years later.

[Michael Knowles]

And, Michael, I want your audience to appreciate, I know of no other program that has a Shroud museum quality, licensed, authentic replica, along with the sudarium that we're comparing right now that's going to live forever. This is so helpful. I wish when I began learning about the Shroud, I could have seen a video with two Shroud scholars comparing the two. This debunks the carbon 14 dating.

[Doug Powell]

Were you always shroud pilled? For lack of a better word?

[Michael Knowles]

No.

[Jeremiah]

I was always interested in it, but what I was unsure of was what the credible evidence was for it. And I studied in a master's program under Gary Habermas, who's one of the leading experts in the historical evidence for the resurrection. And one day he just went off talking about the Shroud and he started listing all of these evidences that I've never heard before. And so he became my guide into the credible evidence. And Jeremiah is a good friend of Dr. Habermas as well, so he was an early advocate for it. In fact, one of the members of the sturp team wrote two books with Dr. Habermas, who was not on the Sturp team as kind of the theological guide for understanding the scientific evidence. So he goes all the way back to the Sturp team without being on it. And he's been in from the very beginning, so he was an excellent guy.

[Doug Powell]

I do find people who make really strong arguments. Not all the time, but sometimes they started out as real skeptics.

[Michael Knowles]

Absolutely.

[Doug Powell]

You know, and it kind of gives them a bit more zeal. Doug, I'm sorry we don't have a chair for you, but in any case, thank you for coming on and showing us. You're welcome. Who else do you have back there?

[Michael Knowles]

I don't. Peter's going to come out next from the Pearly Gates, so be ready. Stay tuned till the end of the broadcast.

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[Michael Knowles]

The first thing that I want you to hold. This is very rare. This is not a reproduction. Don't let this get lost in your pocket. This is the temple tax coin. This is 14 grams. This is a full shekel. This would have paid for the temple tax for two. The temple tax was a half shekel. I want you to hold this. That is Tyrian silver my friend, dating from the time of Pontius Pilate. In other words, that was in circulation from 26 to 36 AD. If you were a Jew or a God fearer coming to Israel. And by the way, this program is airing at Passover.

[Doug Powell]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

So this could not be more relevant. You had to change your currency into the temple tax which was the tyrian silver coin. 14 grams. And Jesus has the whip. He goes and he sees the money changers. And it's just like you and I. We would never change our money in the airport cause the rates are always bad. It was that times 100 in the Southern steps of Jerusalem. That right there also Judas has paid 30 of those.

[Doug Powell]

This is it. This is the coin.

[Michael Knowles]

That is the Tyrion silver coin. Also when Jesus performs a miracle and he says he tells Peter to catch a fish and and there is the temple Tax in the fish's mouth. It could have been that one. It's one of that and my Torah scroll are the two most valuable artifacts that we have in our possession of our organization. I wanted you to hold that because coins were the social media of the day. Michael, this is where if I have my triplets with me who are 8 years old, and I'm trying to kind of answer your question about the artifacts. And this shows us that what the scriptures say matter, it really did happen. Had we been there that day, we would have seen him.

[Doug Powell]

This is even down to the make believe, like the quotidian details of this coin. It's amazing how well preserved it is.

[Michael Knowles]

I know. That's what makes it exceedingly valuable as well.

[Doug Powell]

I have nickels that aren't as well.

[Michael Knowles]

Preserved in 2004, and that's a full shekel at 14 grams. And so if you go to the southern steps today to the Jerusalem Archaeological park, you can hold that in your hand and then imagine in your mind's eye what was happening during Passover that weekend. And all of the factions and cultural fractions helping as well. I have another coin. Hold onto it.

[Doug Powell]

Just keep it over there by you.

[Michael Knowles]

Now, in a hundred years, I can use this coin to prove the resurrection of Jesus from a location standpoint.

[Doug Powell]

Okay.

[Michael Knowles]

The Holy Sepulcher Church, without a doubt, archeologically speaking, is the place where the edicule is inside. The Church of the Holy Sepulcher is the very spot where Jesus walked out of the tomb alive. How do we know that? Well, we need to thank Emperor Hadrian. I want you to hold this bronze coin. That's bronze. That was silver. Tyrian silver. This is bronze.

[Doug Powell]

I can tell because it's got, you know, it's a little more.

[Michael Knowles]

And this is also very well preserved.

[Doug Powell]

Patina.

[Michael Knowles]

Again, not a replica. This is an actual from the second century bronze coin. This is currency. So, Michael, if we time traveled and we went back to the second century, right now it would be a whole different era. And if we're in the city of Jerusalem, we would have to say, michael, let's get the coins. We got to figure out who the God is. What's this town even called? Where are we? So the coins teach us so much. Well, guess what? Hadrian, because of his hatred of the Jews, and he saw Christianity as just a Jewish sect, he wipes out Israel during the Jewish uprisings. Remember, there are three great Jewish revolts, culminating of course, in Bar Kokhba. But prior to that, Hadrian. This is why I never use the Word Palestine. Palestine, which is a pejorative term against the Jews, was coined by Emperor Hadrian, no pun intended. And literally imprinted on that bronze coin is Elia Capitolina. He raises Jerusalem to the ground. He renames it Aliya Capitolina, the City of Jupiter. Rather than calling it Jerusalem, he learns of this early venerated site, of this dying rising God that early Christians who he thought were Jews worshiped. And what does he do? He actually demolishes it. He puts a temple to the God Venus and Jupiter at the site of Golgotha and the tomb of Christ of the Resurrection, thereby preserving it for us until helene gets there 200 years later, Constantine's mom. So I can use one coin to prove the Resurrection.

[Doug Powell]

That's called being hoisted with your own petard. I think when you accidentally preserve the.

[Michael Knowles]

Because that's another unintended consequences. I want you to hold the replica of the crucifixion nail, nine inches long. This is one of the most striking features that again, smack of authenticity of the Shroud. In early Christian art, we have the holes in the hands right here in the palms. But actually, of course, for the Greek scholars watching, which there are very few, God bless those of us who are watching. The same word in Greek is hand, palm and wrist.

[Doug Powell]

The wrist, right? Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

The Shroud gets it right. Michael, I want you to see the Shroud. You can see the arms that are folded. They come down in a V shape, and the penetration is perfectly in the wrists. Because a forger wouldn't have known this. If you crucified someone, he put it through the hands. It's not gonna support, of course, because.

[Doug Powell]

Medieval art, Renaissance art, really, even art today, takes license. Yeah, Takes license. And places the wound in the hands. But I remember, even when I was a kid, this was some good catechesis pointed out. You know, really, it's the wrist. If it would have been the hands, it would have just fallen off.

[Michael Knowles]

That is consistent with the nail prints, the scars, the wrists of the crucified man of the Shroud and the feet.

[Doug Powell]

Wow. I guess this is the recurrent theme is if it were a forgery, this would have had to be. I mean, it's sort of preposterous even to suggest. But would it have had to be the most detail oriented forager ever to get exactly the right dust? And it would have to be a.

[Michael Knowles]

Miracle forger if you could go buy a lottery ticket. Right. If you were that person. And again, it just goes beyond the pale. This is again, how much information is enough to Be convinced.

[Doug Powell]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

And we don't stop there. If I may, Michael, please. The flagram. Flagrum.

[Doug Powell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

I think it's the most understated verse in the New Testament. And Pilate had Jesus flogged. That's all the verse says. This is a Roman flag room. I wouldn't call it a cat of nine tails. That's kind of a modernism. This is a Roman scourge. We know that the crucified man. As scholars counted up the amount of wounds. This is going to blow your mind. 372 wounds, over 120 lashes. Each lash would leave three impressions. You see the lead barbells, the dumbbell shaped bar and you feel the weight of those.

[Doug Powell]

Yeah, yeah. So we know that it would have had three.

[Michael Knowles]

Right.

[Doug Powell]

That's kind of fitting, isn't it? You know, the tripartite.

[Michael Knowles]

Exactly. So much of this is interesting.

[Doug Powell]

Or rather the three distinct persons and one divine unity of the Godhead. Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

So there's two executioners, as it were, scourging him and Michael in our tour, who is the man of the shroud that we're doing across the country right now, we have an image. There is not a part of the body of Jesus that was not abused. Traumatized.

[Doug Powell]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Beaten, every aspect, front and back. Even in the pelvic region. We don't have the lateral sides in the image. We only have the front and back. And So I estimate 700 wounds from the flagram alone on the crucified man of the cross. Even Mel Gibson didn't really come close in the R rated passion of the Christ. That's how bad it is. I don't think any of us could watch it. So Jesus, again, I'm going somewhere with this. As a New Testament scholar privileging this because of a religious bias, I am taking this to what I personally know of Jewish burial traditions and Roman crucifixion and execution. No one was crucified the way Jesus was crucified. He's crucified in a particularly heinous demonic way that makes him utterly unique as our Messiah who dies in our place.

[Doug Powell]

If you asked Pilate or, you know, some Roman centurion or something. Hey, you know, how come you're crucifying this guy this way?

[Michael Knowles]

Right.

[Doug Powell]

Especially after Pilate says, basically, this man's done nothing wrong. And I wipe my hands of it. And I don't. My wife's having nightmares and I don't, you know, by the way, pious tradition.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes.

[Doug Powell]

What tradition says about the nightmare. No, again, this is Just tradition. There's no, you know, there's no scriptural basis for this.

[Michael Knowles]

Educate me.

[Doug Powell]

The pious tradition says that. So Pontius Pilate, who, you know, condemns our Lord to death, his wife has problems. I'm having dreams about this man. Don't get washed of this man. And the sacred tradition says that the dream she has is hearing her husband's name chanted in every church in the world for 2000 years during the Creed.

[Michael Knowles]

Wow.

[Doug Powell]

Crucified under Pontius Pilate, suffered death and was buried.

[Michael Knowles]

Wow, that gives me chills.

[Doug Powell]

So again, it's a pious tradition, but.

[Michael Knowles]

I, well, I point this out in body of proof that Jesus wasn't. Why is he crucified? Because these are excellent questions we have to ask critically. What is it about Jesus that caused this particular hatred? Well, sure, there's a demonic influence behind it, without a doubt, but there's also historical influence. Jesus is not the only messianic contender in the first century. I actually list all 10. We have 10 different men who stepped up and said, hey, I'm the Son of God, follow me. In fact, two of them are mentioned in the book of Acts. They have much larger followings than Egypt. Remember the one who went out in the wilderness in Egypt? Another had a following, a 4000. So Jesus, though, I believe Pilate, who had a no win job by the way, I mean he just. And he would later get on the outs with Tiberius and die by suicide. So Pilate essentially takes out all of Roman anger on these messianic contenders in his mind that would come against the throne. And again, you have a lot of influence from the Essene Dead Sea scroll community at this time as well. Remember the Dead Sea Scrolls prophesied that someday a messianic figure would come, would kill the Katim, the Romans would kill the Roman Empire and then set up rule today, right now in the land of Israel.

[Doug Powell]

So one can imagine why Caesar and Pontius Pilate were a little close, right?

[Michael Knowles]

These were fighting words. And so Jesus has put down the Titulus. Have you seen the Titulus in three languages? Iesous Basileus, you die on here. Is Jesus Christ the King of the Jews?

[Doug Powell]

Oh yeah, Jesus Nazarenus Rex Judeorum.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes, in Aramaic.

[Doug Powell]

I can't do the other ones. Only the Latin.

[Michael Knowles]

In Latin. I did the Greek, you did the Latin. Well done. So we just need an Aramaic. Now. Do we have any, do we have.

[Doug Powell]

Any ancient Jews coming right out? We only have young Jews in the building.

[Michael Knowles]

Another thing I would like to point out, with your permission, Michael, is the spear the lance? Doug pointed something out, and I want to make sure it's not lost on the audience. Jesus, of course, Passover is happening. Jesus is on the cross. Pilate is shocked that he was so soon dead, if you recall. And yet, because of Jewish sensitivities, Pilate knows I've got to get these dead bodies off the cross. You know, we've got a. This is a high Sabbath. This is the Passover. This is a major Jewish festival. Everything's at a powder keg. Wait. Go break their legs. They go to break the criminal's legs. They don't break Jesus legs because they see he's already dead. But just to make sure, if I may.

[Doug Powell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

I brought this. It was so fun. It was so fun getting this on American Airlines.

[Doug Powell]

I can't bring my Bic lighting.

[Michael Knowles]

I want you to hold this. The weight of this spear, it's three and a half centimeters wide. Just to make sure. Again, back to the demonic way Jesus is killed. Just to make sure he's really dead. Let's just go ahead and lance him in the heart. And what do we have on the shroud? Jesus is pierced in the side through rib five and six. It goes a few centimeters up, it breaks through to the heart, the chamber around the heart. Blood and water. How would a forger know this? Et cetera comes out. And as Doug pointed out, that blood in the side wound is post mortem blood. So if we wanted to fake it, Michael, let's just kill a guy in the process to make sure we really.

[Doug Powell]

Get the forgery right in order. If you faked it, presumably it would be living blood.

[Michael Knowles]

Exactly. From a living man, not post mortem blood like this in the sudarium. So are you seeing the trails I'm leaving right now of evidence? I mean, it's hard to fathom. This is why I say I believe in the authenticity of the shroud, because I'm not irrational.

[Doug Powell]

Yeah, yeah. How much more it's like to those who have faith, you know, no evidence is necessary. And to those without faith, no evidence is enough.

[Michael Knowles]

Right, exactly. And I want to speak to that. And this is where your program is so important. The most dangerous place a person can get is when you stop seeking truth, when you stop learning truth, because you then insert your own truth, which is relativism. Fascinatingly enough, Jesus performs his greatest miracle in the last week. And he goes to Bethany each night. During passion week, 1.8 miles from the city center of Jerusalem, I filmed inside the tomb of Lazarus. He performs a miracle in John 11. And he raises Lazarus from the dead. And there are still truth deniers, Jesus deniers, people that hate God, they hate the gospel, they hate truth, they hate salvation, they love Satan and they say, oh, no, now we have to kill Lazarus and Jesus. We have to kill them again. Some people are so hardened in their disbelief, no evidence is enough. And that is a dangerous place to be. So one of the outcomes or applications of this interview is we have to ask ourselves, am I still seeking truth? Am I seeking truth? Am I a truth seeker? Or have I created my own truth? Am I foisting on some false narrative on my life? And why do I believe what I believe? These are all very healthy questions. Now, what I'm about to show you, Michael, leaves this question beyond all doubt. Whether or not the man of the Shroud is Jesus. If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. Right. The crown of thorns. I was under the impression with some kind of wreath, some kind of band.

[Doug Powell]

Right. It's just a little.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, just something again, just for right or wrong. Influenced by ancient Christian tradition and art mainly. I'm in Jerusalem here. I've published 250,000 words on the Resurrection. I thought I had learned everything there was to learn until I saw the crown of thorns. It not only took my breath away, but Michael, I want you to hold this. And at risk of maiming myself? Yes, but it's worth it. This is the helmet of thorns.

[Doug Powell]

Yes, So I had heard. I remember reading or hearing at some point that actually it's like 3D or not just 3D, but it goes around.

[Michael Knowles]

The whole head, the whole head and is really like a helmet, like a cap, a helmet. And so what do we see? The Coruscant correspondence with. These are 3 inch Jerusalem thorn, excuse me, Bethlehem thorns. When they dry, they're as sharp as nails. I'm going to say to you what I said to my triplet boys here. Try to prick your finger on the end of one. You can see I just did this crown of thorns, the Gospel of Mark, which is the earliest gospel, it says, and the Romans fashioned a crown of thorns and placed it on his head to humiliate him. This is the king of the Jews. They place this on his head. And what do we see on the Shroud? 50 puncture wounds in the scalp. It would have caused profuse bleeding. And so when he goes echo homo the man, you can imagine, crown of thorns, blood stained. The scene would have been incomprehensible.

[Doug Powell]

It Also just occurs to me, looking at this for people who will find it unfamiliar, that's not what the crown of thorns looks like. This is what an actual crown looks like.

[Michael Knowles]

Exactly.

[Doug Powell]

Actual crowns are not headbands.

[Michael Knowles]

Right.

[Doug Powell]

Have you ever seen, like, the crown of St Stephen?

[Michael Knowles]

Yes, whatever.

[Doug Powell]

You know, a crown in the UK.

[Michael Knowles]

They look like this. Yes.

[Doug Powell]

They cover your whole head. Huh.

[Michael Knowles]

And isn't that fascinating? This is what leaves it beyond all doubt to me. Speaking from a historical scholar's perspective, it could not be anyone other than Jesus of Nazareth. My friend Bruno Barbaras, who I will be with in just a few weeks in Turin, Italy, has assigned a probability to is this anyone other than Jesus? And he's published his findings. Again, not a preacher, not a priest, he's a mathematician at University of Turin. The probability, the man of the Shroud, according to mathematician Bruno Barbaras, is anyone other than Jesus, is 1 in 200 billion. So I guess there's still a chance for the skeptics. Yeah, there is.

[Doug Powell]

You're saying there's a chance, but the connection being that the wounds from this particular crown of thorns match the man of the Shroud in a way that a little laurel wreath or something wouldn't have.

[Michael Knowles]

And leaves it beyond all doubt it's anyone other than Jesus of Nazareth.

[Doug Powell]

Because the other guys didn't get this.

[Michael Knowles]

No, no one did that. We know. We know of one in history who was crucified. This is one of one utterly unique. And again, you come back to the personal application of this is love in its most radical form for us.

[Doug Powell]

That, you know, when you handed it to me, I thought, oh, should I try it? Honestly?

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, exactly. Give it a try.

[Doug Powell]

I prefer not to, if possible.

[Michael Knowles]

And there you go. And I love that. This is the centerpiece of our interview. Yes. Yeah, exactly.

[Doug Powell]

What do you make of the claims of relics of the crown of thorns that go back a long way? Like when Notre Dame de Paris burned down some years ago, a priest ran in because there was said to be a piece of the true crown. Do any of those claims convince you or.

[Michael Knowles]

No, they don't, because they're unlike the Shroud in that you just can't test it scientifically against anything. And so I'm not discounting it, but this is kind of my skepticism also oozing out of me again, in that when you ask me a historical question, I give you a historical, not a faith answer. I don't privilege it. And so the interesting thing about the sudarium in the Shroud of Turin is in the Catholic Church, it is both an artifact and a relic. Meaning those are two of two. There are no other relics that can also be scientifically studied.

[Doug Powell]

Interesting.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes.

[Doug Powell]

Cause, right, so what you're saying is, you know, like if someone, if you found out someday you get up to the pearly gates, you find out actually the crown, the thorns in Notre Dame, that actually was part of the crown, you'd say, okay, yeah, but what you're saying here is you can know with certainty through natural reason that the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Orviedo are legit.

[Michael Knowles]

Jesus grave clothes.

[Doug Powell]

They're actually Christ's grave clothes. Whereas with the other relics, you think, oh, is this a piece of, you know, St. Anthony's bone? Like, maybe, maybe it is. But you just, you just say, I can't test it.

[Michael Knowles]

Right, exactly. And that is the fascinating thing about these two relics, the Sudarium and the Shroud. You test them, it is the moment of resurrection. It's captured in history. Blinding light in Neo laboratories. 34,000 trillion watts of energy in 1/40 of a billionth of a second. Otherwise it would have scorched. I mean, think about that. This is what science can't reproduce, is how this flash happened. I speak to young people all the time about the Shroud. It's the equivalent of 6.4 gigawatts. And you and I will remember the greatest movie of all time, 1985's Back to the Future, Doc Brown, 1.21 gigawatts to go back in time. So five times the amount of that energy to bring the body of Jesus back to life. We just can't quantify it. We can't reproduce it. We don't know how it occurred. We just see the effect of it.

[Doug Powell]

Wow, that's an amazing approach to it because I've come across a number of relics and some, you know, have really undeniable provenance.

[Michael Knowles]

Right.

[Doug Powell]

This is St. John Vianney's heart.

[Michael Knowles]

Right.

[Doug Powell]

It would be hard for them to fake that.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes.

[Doug Powell]

Some though that go back to antiquity. I believe as a matter of faith, I believe in the relic and maybe it's got good sort of oral history and provenance to it, but I can't, you know, as you say, I can't really test it.

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