Podcast Summary: The Michael Knowles Show

Episode: Right Wing Civil War: "Israel & Economy Crisis" HEATED Debate With Michael Knowles | Bar Fight
Date: December 20, 2025
Location: Live at Amfest

Overview

This special "Bar Fight" edition of The Michael Knowles Show, filmed at Amfest, brings together Michael Knowles (host), Steve Dase (Gen X conservative and Blaze Media host), and Kai Schwemmer (Jubilee debater and Gen Z conservative) for a high-energy, combative debate. Rather than the usual left-vs-right format, this live event spotlights fierce divisions within the American Right—focusing on Israel, economic policy, and demographic change. Audience Q&A dives into religion, abortion, marriage, and the broader shape of the conservative future.

Main Themes

• The 'Conservative Civil War': Old Right vs. New Right; generational and ideological splits
• America's support for Israel—moral, strategic, and political arguments
• The role of government in the economy—capitalism vs. welfare and UBI
• The future of Christianity in America and its influence on politics
• Abortion: abolitionist vs. incrementalist approaches
• Marriage, sexuality, and legislative norms: retrenching or moving forward?
• Navigating internal discord within the conservative movement

Key Discussion Segments

1. Round One: Should America Support Israel?

[03:42 - 11:19]

Steve Dase's Position (Pro-Israel, Pragmatic Defense)

• Disregards “Boomer era” religious slogans ("I'm not going to take Genesis 12:3... to appease John Nelson Darby...").
• Cites history: Islam predates modern Israel by 1300 years, and Islamic antagonism is not a product of Israel's existence:
  • "For the 1300 years we had Islam and no Israel, Islam just came after Christendom instead." [03:51]
• Israel as a strategic “deflector shield” for Western interests, redirecting anti-Western energy.
• U.S. leverage in the Middle East (e.g., Trump negotiating with Saudi Arabia) relies on support for Israel.
• Bottom line: U.S. support for Israel is about cold, hard interests, not theological mandates.

Kai Schwemmer's Position (Critical of 'Unconditional' Support)

• Argues U.S. support for Israel is largely “unconditional” and often contrary to American interests.
• Points out incidents where Israel undermined U.S. policy (e.g., West Bank annexation during Trump era).
• Criticizes the U.S. being dragged into conflicts (notably with Iran) because of Israeli reliance on American military support.
• Claims this support erodes America's moral standing on the world stage:
  • "Our unconditional support for Israel... is undermining our position as a moral and just actor on the world stage." [07:47]
• Sees elements in U.S. policy (such as anti-Semitism laws and flag-burning restrictions) as putting foreign interests ahead of American ones.

Steve Dase's Counterarguments

• Refers to recent Arab action against Iran to protect Israel, suggesting a regional shift and proof of US-Israel partnership’s value.
• Argues critics implicitly see Trump as manipulated or outsmarted by Israel (“you think Trump is a schmuck”), but Trump acted in U.S. interests by leveraging Israel.
  • "You're saying that Trump is essentially getting pimped out by Israel and so you're bypassing Trump to blame Israel." [10:29]

Notable Exchange

• Steve Dase: "For that [the pro-Israel critics’ narrative] to be true means that you think Trump, to borrow a Jewish term, is a schmuck." [06:48]
• Kai Schwemmer: "I think we do look like schmucks when we allow spies who are Navy intelligence agents... to meet with the foreign ambassador to Israel." [10:49]

2. Audience Q&A: Christianity’s Future in America

[11:23 - 15:02]

Main Question:

Is America’s Christian future "Catholic" or "Protestant"? What about Mormonism?

• Michael Knowles: Cites Tocqueville’s theory—America could go either atheist or Catholic, due to democracy's demand for universality:
  • "Tocqueville... says... America is a Protestant country... [but] over time, it's going to go one of two ways. It's going to go atheist or it's going to go Catholic." [11:51]
• Steve Dase: Emphasizes the primacy of the “Word of God” over denominational squabbles—theological fads come and go.
• Kai Schwemmer: Champions the unique “Americanness” and growth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, underscores structure and ongoing revelation.

Tone: Cordial, reflective, slight humor over denominational rivalry.

3. Abortion Abolitionism and Tactics

[15:07 - 19:47]

Audience Member: Should there be true equal protection for unborn children, even if it means criminalizing mothers?

• Steve Dase: Fully supports legal personhood for the unborn, credits abolitionists’ clarity, but criticizes their confrontational approach:
  • "You're going to win because you guys actually have a vision to victory. The challenge... is what kind of collateral damage are you going to cause... because you guys... take some of the most counterintuitive, confrontational tactics I've ever seen." [15:52]
• Kai Schwemmer: Agrees ideal is abolition, but cautions against “consistency as a false God.” Political pragmatism and individual situation matter.
• Michael Knowles: Calls for prudence, invokes Aristotle and Aquinas; supports incremental gains when abolishing abortion isn't possible.
  • "The paramount political virtue is prudence. Not pragmatism... but prudence." [18:54]
• Discussion on tactics: Be wise, not just “nice” or “douchey.”

4. Spiritual Discernment in a Fractious Conservative Movement

[20:19 - 26:32]

Audience Member: Navigating conflicting, combative voices—how to guide conservative, religious children and unite the movement?

• Michael Knowles: Warns against political media’s “railing and reviling spirit.” Encourages discernment, prayer, engagement with the faith before politics.
  • "It’s not good for your soul, it’s not good for the political community... distinguish where priorities really lie." [22:22]
• Steve Dase: “Christianity is not the endless asking of questions, it is the ceaseless seeking of answers.” Seek media and content aiming for truth rather than “Gnosticism.”
  • "The first being who ever said, 'I'm just asking questions,' [was] Satan." [23:08]
• Kai Schwemmer: Let faith guide politics, warns against being “based” for its own sake (i.e., shock or internet edginess). Virtue > edginess.

5. Round Two: Big Government, the Economy & Generational Clashes

[29:00 - 45:31]

Kai Schwemmer’s Position (Pro-UBI, Pragmatic Use of Big Government)

• Denies "big government always sucks”—says solutions are generationally contingent.
• Details impossibility of economic self-sufficiency for Gen Z under current market conditions.
• Calls for market-oriented welfare reforms, especially UBI (universal basic income), to respond to AI disruption, reinforce family stability.
  • "A UBI... is going to allow mothers to stay in the home with their children, allow college students to devote more time to their studies." [30:35]

Steve Dase’s Position (Capitalism with Reforms, Skeptical of UBI)

• Historicizes “big government,” citing Pilgrim communalism and its failures.
• Credits capitalism (or “true capitalism,” not corporatist “whoring”) with fostering American prosperity.
• Agrees government intervention necessary to undo current imbalances (calls for mass deportations, border closure to fix supply/demand), but staunchly opposes UBI as anti-human nature:
  • "Your economic theorem must... line up with human nature... just deciding, you know what the boomers did. Just the tip. So let's go for the full conception. I promise you it will reverb on you badly." [32:52]
• Blames both parties for creating "too big to fail" distortions and housing unaffordability.

Notable Moments

• Dase’s candor and humor: "[UBI is] just boomerism on steroids... 90 days, same as cash, six months no interest." [30:55]
• Both agree government intervention is needed now, but differ radically on solutions and ends.

6. Hot Topic Q&A: Marriage, Morality, and Legal Norms

[36:44 - 45:20]

Should conservatives fight to restore traditional marriage and morality laws?

• All Panelists: Agree on the necessity of defending traditional marriage and stigmatizing cultural departures (like same-sex marriage and gender ideology).
• Michael Knowles: Predicts support for same-sex marriage is collapsing due to transgender excesses. “We will have to get back to a sane definition of marriage... to protect children and the building block of society” [37:27]
• Steve Dase: Emphasizes “slippery slope” never fails, blames movement for sprinting 'to Gomorrah' with policy excesses leading to public backlash; believes reversal on same-sex marriage will come faster than Roe reversal:
  • "Slippery slope arguments are undefeated, folks. Undefeated. They never lose." [38:17]

Sodomy and Cross-dressing Laws?

• Panelists note such laws existed until very recently (e.g., Utah's ban on premarital sex).
• Steve Dase: "I respect the Mormon who says, I will be more puritanical than you. I respect the hell out of that." [42:51]
• Michael Knowles: Argues those laws functioned mostly as 'insurance policies,' i.e., moral bulwarks rather than tools of blanket criminalization.
• Steve Dase: Emphasizes "stigma, stigmatizing things that God hates" as key.

7. Lightning Round: Demographic Change

[46:17 - 46:27]

• Brief agreement: Both support “stopping the demographic transformation of America”—no debate, total consensus.

Notable Quotes

• Steve Dase: "The first being who ever said, 'I'm just asking questions,' [was] Satan." [23:08]
• Michael Knowles: "The paramount political virtue is prudence. Not pragmatism... but prudence." [18:54]
• Kai Schwemmer: "We're not going to score brownie points in heaven because we told leftists to kill themselves." [25:18]
• Steve Dase: "Slippery slope arguments are undefeated, folks. Undefeated. They never lose." [38:17]
• Michael Knowles: "It’s not a virtue to be based." [26:32]
• Kai Schwemmer: "A UBI... is going to allow mothers to stay in the home with their children, allow college students to devote more time to their studies." [30:35]
• Steve Dase: "Just deciding, you know what the boomers did. Just the tip. So let's go for the full conception. I promise you it will reverb on you badly." [32:52]

Tone and Dynamics

• Authentic, combative, candid, and at times humorous.
• Heavy on historical analogy, religious reasoning, and generational ribbing.
• Frequent interplay between personal experience and philosophical/theological abstractions.

Winner?

• Audience ballots split the win: Kai takes the Israel round, Steve takes the economy round, but round three (immigration/demographics) is unanimity; all agree.
• Steve earns the crowd’s “cheer for the loser” at finale [46:28]. Panelists exchange mutual respect regardless.

Practical Takeaways

• Right-wing America is deeply divided on means, less so on ends.
• The future of conservative politics will depend on whether young and old can agree how to get there—through government strategy, capitalist reform, or a return to religious/social norms.
• Internal discourse is as passionate and personal as left-right debate, and is often buttressed by appeals to history, scripture, and the “created order.”
• The central question: What does it mean to pursue the good—through law, custom, or conversion—and whose vision will set the conservative coalition’s terms?

For listeners who missed the episode, this summary distills the substantive arguments, memorable exchanges, and generational tension animating the American right, as portrayed in real time at Amfest’s “Bar Fight.”