The Great Replacement Conspiracy: Liberal Student DEBATES Michael Knowles

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Great Replacement Conspiracy – Liberal Student Debates Michael Knowles

Episode: The Great Replacement Conspiracy: Liberal Student DEBATES Michael Knowles
Host: Michael Knowles
Release Date: April 21, 2025
Podcast: The Michael Knowles Show, The Daily Wire

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Introduction to the Debate

In this episode of The Michael Knowles Show, host Michael Knowles engages in a spirited debate with Zach, the treasurer of the Yale College Democrats. The discussion centers around immigration policy, the so-called "Great Replacement" conspiracy, and the broader implications of mass migration on American society. The debate also features interjections from Ben Shapiro and an interviewer, providing additional context and commentary.

---

Immigration Policy: Numbers and Processes

Michael Knowles opens the debate with a direct challenge to Zach’s stance on immigration:

"You're evading the question. What's the number? How many migrants should America take in per year?"
[00:00]

Zach responds by emphasizing the importance of a legal process for immigration:

"There's a process. And we should lend everyone who abides by that process, right? Oh, but should I stop?"
[00:04]

The crux of the debate revolves around whether the U.S. should set specific numerical limits on migrants or adopt an open-door policy based on legal qualifications. Michael Knowles advocates for abandoning fixed numerical limits, arguing that focusing solely on the negative impacts of immigration is disproportionate:

"It occurs to me that we only focus on the sob stories when they come out of the American right. But when we look at mass migration... we never focus on that."
[04:03]

In contrast, Zach insists that immigration should be managed through a stringent, merit-based process to ensure that only those who qualify are admitted:

"We're just saying you need a legal process, and Trump has stopped that legal process."
[19:38]

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Moral and Economic Arguments

The debate delves into the moral imperatives and economic ramifications of immigration. Zach presents two primary arguments:

1. Moral Duty:

   "I think we have a duty to help others. Even in Isaiah it says, woe unto those who pass evil laws, who hurt the poor."
   [06:25]

2. Economic Benefits:

   "Undocumented immigrants alone pay $100 billion in taxes... for every undocumented immigrant you deport, you actually are losing American jobs."
   [07:18]

Michael Knowles counters by highlighting the strain immigrants can place on social services and the potential erosion of a common language and culture:

"But one can also pull up studies about the net drag on the economy because immigrants... are more likely to receive welfare benefits than native-born American citizens."
[08:05]

Zach rebuts this by questioning the validity of such studies and reiterates the economic contributions of immigrants:

"I just want to make sure I'm getting you correct here. You're saying that undocumented immigrants are receiving more welfare benefits than normigans. I don't think that's true."
[08:23]

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Impact on American Culture

Cultural assimilation emerges as a significant point of contention. Michael Knowles argues that mass migration leads to cultural dilution and challenges the unity of a common language:

"We used to speak English in this country and recently we speak much less English."
[11:41]

Zach counters by embracing the concept of a "melting pot," emphasizing the dynamic and evolving nature of American culture:

"What would you identify as American culture? Because to me, the American culture is always changing. It's a living culture."
[09:45]

Michael Knowles elaborates on historical waves of immigration, suggesting that previous immigrant groups assimilated more seamlessly compared to recent influxes:

"That means giving up one's cultural identity to a large degree, though it does also mean adding a little... the problems in assimilation have gotten much worse."
[12:30]

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Public Opinion and Polling

The conversation shifts to public sentiment regarding immigration. Michael Knowles references various polls indicating that the majority of Americans favor significant reductions in both legal and illegal immigration:

"There was a Harvard Harris poll that said that most Americans... a clear majority of Americans would like immigration to be 500,000 or fewer total per year."
[18:26]

Zach challenges this by labeling it a straw man argument and emphasizes the complexity of voters' opinions:

"I think that's a straw man, right?"
[19:14]
"I have to look at the exact. I'm a bit of a polling nerd. I look into the polls and the cross tabs."
[20:27]

Michael Knowles maintains that despite polls showing support for reduced immigration, the policies advocated by Democrats may not align with these preferences:

"If the majority of Americans want to drastically reduce migration and you want to keep migration at multiples of that level and keep it there or even increase it, why do you get to win out?"
[19:38]

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Final Exchanges and Conclusion

As the debate draws to a close, Michael Knowles presses Zach on the feasibility and desirability of maintaining high levels of immigration despite public opinion:

"Had you heard your beautiful arguments for it."
[20:32]

Zach reiterates his stance on maintaining a legal and humane immigration process, suggesting that open debate and informed discussions are necessary for policy-making:

"If we had a prudent win... helping people in need... ensuring we treat the poorest of the poor."
[21:35]

Michael Knowles concludes by challenging the moral consistency of immigration policies, questioning why the U.S. should stand out if other nations do not follow suit:

"Is Japan an immoral country because it doesn't take in a lot of Immigrants. Is the state of Israel an immoral country?"
[13:16]

The episode wraps up with Michael Knowles expressing optimism about future interactions and the impact of such debates on public discourse:

"I'll see you at the midterms. A pleasure to meet you."
[21:43]

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Michael Knowles:

  "You're evading the question. What's the number? How many migrants should America take in per year?"
  [00:00]

• Zach:

  "There's a process. And we should lend everyone who abides by that process, right? Oh, but should I stop?"
  [00:04]

• Ben Shapiro:

  "You know these kids, they don't want to lose their Goldman Sachs job."
  [01:38]

• Zach:

  "Undocumented immigrants alone pay $100 billion in taxes."
  [07:18]

• Michael Knowles:

  "We used to speak English in this country and recently we speak much less English."
  [11:41]

• Zach:

  "Everyone, my grandparents fled here to flee the communists."
  [05:26]

• Zach:

  "I'm a bit of a polling nerd. I look into the polls and the cross tabs."
  [20:27]

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Michael Knowles Show presents a robust debate on immigration, highlighting the tensions between moral obligations, economic benefits, cultural preservation, and public opinion. Michael Knowles advocates for a more open and less restrictive immigration policy, arguing against the "Great Replacement" narrative. Zach, representing the liberal perspective, emphasizes the necessity of a controlled and legal immigration process to safeguard American values and manage economic impacts effectively. The exchange underscores the complexities surrounding immigration policy in the United States, reflecting broader national conversations on identity, economy, and humanitarian responsibility.

Transcript

[Michael Knowles]

You're evading the question.

[Zach]

I'm not.

[Michael Knowles]

What's the number? How many migrants should America take in per year?

[Zach]

There's a process. And we should lend everyone who abides by that process, right? Oh, but should I stop?

[Michael Knowles]

The process should be unlearned.

[Ben Shapiro]

You know, even after being screamed at, sprayed with fluids, burned in effigy, and nearly blown up on campus, I still love speaking at universities, which is why I was thrilled when this semester's YAF speaking tour brought me back to my old stomping grounds, Yale.

[Interviewer]

How do you prepare to give a speech on campus?

[Ben Shapiro]

Well, what most sensible guest lecturers do is either wing it or just give the same speech over and over, which is very tempting. But I like to write a new speech every time because it lets me really focus in on the most pressing issues of the time. Whatever's going on that week, what's going on at that place, and the current events angle gives me a greater ability to lure the audience into whichever obscure philosophical point or tradition I actually want to talk about. The principle is sort of like a little bit of sugar makes the medicine go down.

[Interviewer]

How far in advance do you write these?

[Ben Shapiro]

I generally write them if I can before I am walking on stage. That is about the earliest that I write them, though. There have been times I've been pulling up to the school, still finishing it, but most of the time I have finished the speech before I had to give it.

[Interviewer]

How did you think Yale would respond to your talk titled an open mind makes your brains fall out? Do you agree with the title of his speech today?

[Zach]

Not necessarily. Not necessarily.

[Michael Knowles]

That sometimes happens.

[Interviewer]

Do I agree with this?

[Zach]

I agree. Yes. Yeah. Do you agree? I don't like Michael Knowles?

[Ben Shapiro]

I'll say that.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Ben Shapiro]

Yalies are all extremely left wing. It's generally known as the Gay Ivy. It's certainly the opposite of populist. And the main political divide on campus is between the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks. But Yalies are also sociopathically ambitious, so I actually did not expect histrionics. I knew to expect a more clubbable kind of protest than the humiliating left wing displays that other students put on at other schools. So, you know these kids, they don't want to lose their Goldman Sachs job. I knew they were going to be more subtle about it, and I was not disappointed. The libs who showed up at Yale, though wrong, were polished and respectful, including the treasurer of a group that I once regularly would beat in beer pong, the Yale College Democrats, who won beer pong.

[Zach]

So that's an interesting question. No, no. Do one more round to beer pong. Looks like the Republicans won.

[Ben Shapiro]

Seriously?

[Michael Knowles]

Looks like the Republicans won.

[Zach]

I think it's great when we have prom individuals come to campus and why? I vehemently disagree with what a lot of what Michael Knowles stands for. I would like the opportunity to have a sort of civil disagreement and see which ideas went out.

[Ben Shapiro]

Unfortunately, my producer did not bring any solo cups or natty ice, but he did bring a couple of chairs so that this young liberal, Yalie and I could sit down face to face.

[Michael Knowles]

Zach, thank you for sitting down. Of course. So you're the head of the Yale College Republicans, right?

[Zach]

No, the very opposite. I'm the treasurer of the Yale College Democrats.

[Michael Knowles]

Democrats. Okay.

[Producer]

That's all right.

[Michael Knowles]

I played a lot of beer pong with the Yale College Dems when I was here.

[Zach]

I'm all for that sort of bipartisanship.

[Michael Knowles]

So you came up. You disagree with me?

[Zach]

I do on a lot of issues.

[Michael Knowles]

Did I persuade you on anything?

[Zach]

No, you didn't.

[Michael Knowles]

No.

[Zach]

Well, the thing is, I do go to a lot of conservative events, so I generally do hear some of the ideas you've been expressing.

[Michael Knowles]

So you've rejected them?

[Zach]

Rejected them.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay. Any in particular?

[Zach]

Well, I'd really like to talk about immigration. You know, I just saw there's an innocent man who was sent to El Salvador by Donald Trump, and he had no criminal record, you know, and he was sent to El Salvador based on a crown tattoo. And it seems pretty clear now that he was not a gang member.

[Michael Knowles]

But now you might also observe there was an innocent girl named Laken Riley who didn't do anything wrong. She was murdered by an illegal alien welcomed in code by Jo Biden.

[Zach]

And that's horrible, but I would. It's not an either or proposition. Taking someone like the barber and sending him without due process to El Salvador is not saving people. I think you can have a moral immigration policy where you protect innocent people in the United States and you also do not hurt innocent people by sending them to basically a forced labor facility.

[Michael Knowles]

It occurs to me that we only focus on the sob stories when they come out of the American right. But when we look at mass migration, where under Joe Biden, we had millions and millions of illegal aliens come into the country every single year. And it wasn't just Biden. This has been going on in Democrat and Republican administration and Republican administrations four decades now. It seems to me we never focus on the sob stories of the Americans who. Some were murdered, some were raped, some just had their society turned upside down, some have lost jobs, some had their wages suppressed. We never focus on that. And so, okay, one guy, during a mass deportation scheme, one guy falls through the cracks and maybe should not have been deported, but he was. I don't know. To me, I look at that and I say, hold on. You only have one mistake out of however many thousands since the inauguration. Those actually aren't terrible numbers. No system is going to be perfect. What's the alternative?

[Zach]

I think the alternative is, you know, first off, you need an immigration system, right. Where people have a path to legally enter the U.S. why? Because we're a nation of immigrants, number one.

[Michael Knowles]

Are we?

[Audience Member]

We are.

[Michael Knowles]

I don't think so.

[Zach]

Everyone, my grandparents fled here to flee the communists, right.

[Michael Knowles]

You know, but my great, great, great grandparents came here on the Mayflower, which is a great cigar company, by the way. And they were not immigrants. They were settlers. They weren't indigenous to the land, but they were not immigrants. Exactly. And we've had long periods of American history where immigration was drastically reduced or virtually non existent. So this notion that we're a nation of immigrants is a relatively modern notion, is it not?

[Producer]

We'll get to more Cross the Line.

[Michael Knowles]

In just one moment. First though, if you want the latest.

[Producer]

News, if you want to understand what the news actually means, you gotta come check out and subscribe to the Michael Knowles show. Every weekday at noon Eastern, I will take you beneath the surface of daily political events to reveal their historical, philosophical, even religious roots. Catch it Monday through Friday, noon Eastern. Now back to Cross the Line at Yale.

[Zach]

Well, I'm give two arguments, right? The first one's the moral argument. I think we have a duty to help others. I know you're a man of faith. I'm also, you know, I am Jewish, but I, you know, we have.

[Michael Knowles]

You're Jewish.

[Zach]

I am Jewish.

[Michael Knowles]

I wouldn't have guessed that.

[Zach]

Yeah, I mean a lot of people wouldn't guess that. But there are actually 40 Asian Jews on campus. But digressing, that's gotta be like all.

[Michael Knowles]

The Asian Jews in the world.

[Zach]

It's a significant number of us. But I want to make this point because I think it's important, right? Which is that, number one, I think you have a duty to help others. And even in Isaiah it says, woe unto those who pass evil laws, who hurt the poor.

[Michael Knowles]

Woe unto the poor. We don't want to oppress the poor. It's the sin that cries out for vengeance.

[Zach]

The second is the economic reason, which is that immigration, in addition to Being, I think morally right is hugely beneficial for the U.S. economy. And undocumented immigrants alone pay $100 billion in taxes. And the other statistic I wanted to share is for every undocumented immigrant you deport, you actually are losing American jobs. There's a study that came out that says because of the net effect of people who are gonna innovate in the economy, work the jobs that a lot of Americans might not wanna work, that's how a lot of people get started.

[Michael Knowles]

I think they might work. You might have to pay them higher wages than slave or feudal wages to Guatemalan peasants. But then that's the point.

[Zach]

You should pay a fair way because.

[Michael Knowles]

We don't want to oppress the poor.

[Zach]

My first job, I worked for a landscaping company. Most of the people were from Central America. And I also speak from Spanish. I'm bilingual in Spanish and English and hard working, great people. Not all of them had immigration status, but we were out there cleaning people's yards.

[Michael Knowles]

No one says illegal incidents can't work, but they just aren't supposed to be here.

[Zach]

Well, my point to you is that you asked me why I favor immigration and I said that's a moral issue. But also the fact that economically we benefit as a nation, you know, again, $100 billion in taxes paid by undocumented immigrants. And in fact they pay Social Security taxes but don't get Social Security because they're not US Citizens.

[Michael Knowles]

However, one can also pull up studies about the net drag on the economy because immigrants, both legal and illegal, are more likely to receive welfare benefits than native born American citizens. Dramatically so. Illegal immigrants, the most legal immigrants. Next, native born Americans after that. So you're saying.

[Zach]

I just want to make sure I'm getting you correct here. You're saying that undocumented immigrants are receiving more welfare benefits than normigans. I don't think that's true. And I actually would love for you to give me that study because I'd love to read it.

[Michael Knowles]

If it were true, would that change your view of mass migration?

[Zach]

It would make me like. I mean, it would be a really stunning fact and it's definitely not true.

[Michael Knowles]

Would it change your view? You're saying it's.

[Zach]

It would cause me to consider. So again, because I still have the moral argument here, which is that again, I think you should help people in need.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, Should Japan take in an unlimited number of migrants? Should Israel take an unlimited.

[Zach]

So 3% of the US population and we can quibble over numbers again. I know Trump always says 18 million. I see Pew. That says 11 million.

[Michael Knowles]

So that's 11 to 16. It's hard to track.

[Zach]

But the United States has 340 million people, right? And we have 11 million. Maybe you say 18 million undocumented immigrants. That's around 3 or 4% of the population. So the entire notion that we're being taken over by immigrants is just not true.

[Michael Knowles]

So you're just talking about illegal immigrants, which are conservatively ranked between 11 and 16 million. But when you talk about all migration, when we're talking about all of mass migration, we presently have the highest foreign born percentage of the population that we've ever had in American history. So you would grant that having foreign people in the country creates at least some social issues, some problems of assimilation, would you not?

[Zach]

Well, I look at the Fortune 500 CEOs and I see tons of immigrants there. So if you're talking about.

[Michael Knowles]

I'm not just asking about gdp, buddy, I'm talking about culture.

[Zach]

So how would you. So I'm actually very curious about this because an issue I've seen people in your political lean talk about a lot is culture.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

What would you identify as American culture? Because to me, the American culture is always changing. It's a living culture.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

We do things differently now than we did 20, 30 years ago. Some people.

[Michael Knowles]

Right.

[Ben Shapiro]

Why?

[Michael Knowles]

We used to speak English in this country and recently we speak much less English. And you have to press one for English because of.

[Zach]

And you have a problem with that?

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, I think it's good for a nation to have a common language.

[Producer]

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[Zach]

You know, most people in the US do speak English, right. And again, my first job was working with a Spanish speaking crew of landscapers.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And you know what?

[Michael Knowles]

That's a problem when a country doesn't all speak the same language. We all did speak the same language of American history until very recently.

[Zach]

Well, I think we're melting pot.

[Michael Knowles]

Why do you think that this is?

[Zach]

Well, there's a ton of benefits, I think.

[Michael Knowles]

Where does the idea of the melting pot come from?

[Zach]

I don't know the origin, but I like the play.

[Michael Knowles]

It comes from a play in the early, I think it was the early 20th century and it was a good play. It was written by a Jewish playwright and it was watched by Teddy Roosevelt. And Teddy Roosevelt loved the play and he complimented the playwright there. And it's about a Jewish guy who wants to marry a gentile girl. And, and this creates a lot of problems culturally, but they both decide that they're going to leave some of their old identity and melt into the American identity to assimilate. So first of all, that means giving up one's cultural identity to a large degree, though it does also mean adding a little.

[Zach]

You're adding something, right? That's the analogy, right.

[Michael Knowles]

You're adding, you're giving up a lot of your own culture. And you have seen this in waves of American migration that have caused problems too. When it was the Irish, when it was the Italians, when it was the Jews, when it was other people. The problem with more recent mass migration from Latin America, especially illegal immigration, is you don't really see so much giving away of the native culture. You don't really see people hurriedly learning English. They didn't used to have press one for Italian back in the early 20th century. So the problems in assimilation have gotten much worse. And I guess the question I would ask to you, since you're unwilling to say whether Japan, which has virtually no immigration should, you know, and they have.

[Zach]

Their population is plummeting. Like, you know, any economist right now would tell you that Japan is actually in a lot of trouble because they don't have enough people there and frankly, immigration would help them.

[Michael Knowles]

Is Japan an immoral country because it doesn't take in a lot of Immigrants. Is the state of Israel an immoral country?

[Zach]

Well, the difference here is that we have millions of people who are fleeing harm and coming to our doorstep and they're asking us, please help me.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

And from a. Yeah, cuz they know.

[Michael Knowles]

That we'll let him in because Joe Biden invited them. Now we don't have anyone really coming to our doorstep because Trump has made it clear that he's going to deport illegal aliens.

[Zach]

Well, I saw those photos of cbp, you know, the border app, people who had scheduled legal appointments. Then Trump cut that off and.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, right.

[Zach]

I think you might like that. But again, even.

[Michael Knowles]

But I think you're evading the moral question because I'm not beating up on Japan and I'm not beating up on Israel and I'm not beating up on Italy, which doesn't enforce immigration laws, but probably would like to, and I'm not beating up on virtually every other country on earth. Do you think that those countries are immoral because they don't just open the door? Yeah.

[Zach]

So the analogy is a little flawed here because I'm saying there's millions of people coming to the US who are asking for help. Japan doesn't have millions of people showing up at their doorstep to the extent that we have.

[Michael Knowles]

Just this past week, CBP and NGOs at the border have closed up shop in certain places because so few people have come to the border since Trump's deportation policies.

[Zach]

Well, the other Trump policies.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

With regard to the border.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

You know, the separation of, you know, children from families. Like he's trying to do policy. Well, he's trying to do things to deter people from coming that are cruel.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

And it's part of the strategy he just has that. He's not just saying them back, enforcing the law.

[Michael Knowles]

What's he doing that's cruel? That's different than any other president's done.

[Zach]

What he's doing is different.

[Michael Knowles]

So a judge.

[Zach]

No, no. The El Salvador thing really gets to me. And again, we're two months into admin and this really gets to me.

[Michael Knowles]

You're saying many people because a judge.

[Zach]

Also accidentally not one guy. These were people. The issue here is this flight had 300 people or so. I don't know how many innocent people were on people. Not all innocent.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

Some of them probably were one guy.

[Michael Knowles]

Some of them I assume were.

[Zach]

But the point is this speaks to, you know, I think we should hold our government to a high standard.

[Audience Member]

Right, sure.

[Michael Knowles]

But what's the standard? Cause you're evading the question.

[Zach]

I'm not.

[Michael Knowles]

What's the number? How many migrants should America take in per year?

[Zach]

You're asking me to make a immigration policy number?

[Michael Knowles]

I'm asking for a simple number. You're the one arguing about, okay, I.

[Zach]

Can actually do this because I've done a little research on this topic. I think the US used to accept something around like 100,000 refugees a year.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

And I would say. And Trump has gotten that to zero. I could at least tell you right now that I think, you know, accepting those. A hundred thousand to 100,000.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, I'm just saying that's what you want. That's migration. Every year, 100,000. You got a deal.

[Zach]

No, no, no, I'll take it. No, no, I'm talking about refugees specifically because refugee acceptance program is what I'm just.

[Michael Knowles]

But I'm asking you about total migration, how many per year?

[Zach]

I think there should be a process where. Based on merit. Look, I'm not giving. Because the people come to the border and there's actually law here and it says when you request asylum you have to meet a certain number of standards.

[Michael Knowles]

The vast majority of migrants are economic migrants, not asylum seekers. Would you agree with that?

[Zach]

I think there's different motivations for people. Like if.

[Michael Knowles]

And what is the motivation of most of the migrants? Will there economic migration or is it a.

[Zach]

Sometimes both. Because if you live in a society where there's no functional police and you stand up a little bit and then you're threatened by the gang and then.

[Michael Knowles]

You come here, you're telling me that the primary motive for the millions of.

[Zach]

Individuals, people seeking a better life, I think that is very important.

[Michael Knowles]

Seeking a better life is very different than seeking asylum.

[Zach]

Well, it fits in the category, right? Someone seeking asylum wants a better life. They're trying to escape violence.

[Michael Knowles]

A square is a rectangle, I guess, but a rectangle is not a square. The people who are seeking political asylum because they're under imminent danger in their home countries, credible fear is the standard.

[Zach]

Credible standard they are, but they can't get in now, cuz Trump has stopped that.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

So my point to you is I think it's really wrong when people who actually are meeting the legal definition for credible fear, there's a set of laws in the.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, you said 100,000 people we're gonna take.

[Zach]

That's specifically the refugee acceptance program I was giving you.

[Michael Knowles]

Why won't you give me a number for total migration?

[Zach]

Because I think it's case specific. Because again, there's a process.

[Michael Knowles]

Let's say the Case of America every year, how many migrants should we take? You're the one advocating for migration. How many?

[Zach]

Again, I'm talking about the process for how people come into the nation.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

And that could be 2 million, it could be 3 million. But it's based on whether they have credible. I'm saying based on whether they have credible fear and they meet again. I. I'm not an immigration attorney, but I know there's a standard.

[Michael Knowles]

You're an American.

[Zach]

Exactly. I'm just saying.

[Michael Knowles]

So I'm asking your view as an American.

[Zach]

Yeah, And I'm happily giving it to you, which is that there's a process and we should lend everyone who abides by that process.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

Oh, but should be stopped the process.

[Michael Knowles]

It should be unlike.

[Audience Member]

But.

[Zach]

But by the process. Okay, which is what? Since Reagan.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

Since Reagan, we've had a process for the way that asylum.

[Michael Knowles]

So we've finally gotten to an answer, which is if people abide by the process, an unlimited number of migrants should come every year.

[Zach]

Well, right now it's around 2 to 3 million. So I'd say you go those 2 to 3 million come through the process and everyone who qualifies comes in.

[Michael Knowles]

Now, what would you say?

[Zach]

I'm completely fine with that because again, the two arguments, morally, you help people in need, and number two, we benefit hugely from an economic level.

[Michael Knowles]

So there's no limit to the moral argument.

[Zach]

I'm gonna give you another just I've been wanting to put in this fact, you know, which is that if we were to increase the number of refugees we accept in this country by just 10%, we'd increase our GDP by a billion dollars. And in fact, the average refugee.

[Michael Knowles]

I'm a little skeptical.

[Zach]

The average refugee we let in, once they've acclimated, of course.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

They actually have a higher income than the average American citizen. And the reason is when you flee persecution, when you flee violence, when you flee with your family, you have a vested interest in working really hard in striving and living the American dream.

[Michael Knowles]

I'm a little skeptical that the Somalis committing crimes in Minnesota are really gonna tick GDP much higher. But even if it were true, a country is more than gdp, we would admit. And so I guess my last question.

[Zach]

They're morals as well.

[Michael Knowles]

Sure. But a morality that only seems to apply to our country and not others. No, my question, the last question to you is there was a Harvard Harris. I hate to bring up Harvard at Yale, but there was a Harvard Harris poll that said that most Americans, when you ask them if they support immigration. They say they do. When you drill down into numbers, the majority, a clear majority of Americans would like immigration to be 500,000 or fewer total per year. That's legal and illegal, which would represent a drastic reduction in migration. This was not just one random poll. This was backed up in a survey that came out last year. Harvard Harris, Gallup Polling. Harvard Harris was the first one. Gallup Polling Gallup is another one, which also reflected that most Americans want to drastically reduce all immigration. So you want immigration to be in principle unlimited and practically to be 2 to 3 million per year.

[Zach]

Well, I think that's a straw man, right?

[Michael Knowles]

You just said that to me.

[Zach]

No, no, what I'm saying to you is there's a process, right. And it's. I can't give an exact number, but around 2 to 3 million is what I would expect for the amount of people coming US. I don't know how many of them will meet the credible fear, et cetera. But I'm just saying you need a legal process, and Trump has stopped that legal process.

[Michael Knowles]

No, there is still legal process.

[Zach]

The border invasion declaration. Again, I actually just made a presentation on this, so I know the facts, which is that he has stopped even the legal immigration.

[Michael Knowles]

You keep back to this point because you're evading the question that I'm asking you, which is if the majority of Americans want to drastically reduce migration and you want to keep migration at multiples of that level and keep it there or even increase it, why do you get to win out?

[Zach]

Why don't you win it? I dispute the premise of your point.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

Because I think if we were to.

[Michael Knowles]

What's the. I think the premise is self government.

[Zach]

If we had a prudent win. Let's just say this was an arena. You know, there's a thought experiment where let's say everyone is watching a debate and everyone will then come to conclusion of debate. If everyone's watching. And then I tell everyone, you know, I give them two arguments. Number one, the moral one that I've given to you, and number two, the economic one, they would go towards the. Again, we have a difference of opinion. There's probably a difference of opinion here.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, so you're saying the majority of Americans in both of these polls have called for less migration, drastically less migration, because they just don't understand how great migration is.

[Zach]

No, no, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I don't know what the. I don't know.

[Michael Knowles]

Haven't heard your beautiful arguments for it.

[Zach]

I have to look at the exact. So I'm a bit of a polling nerd. I look into the polls and the cross tabs and, you know, if you ask Americans, you know, their opinions on, like, helping others on immigration, et cetera.

[Michael Knowles]

They love it.

[Zach]

No. Yes. They love helping others. And when you get voters, they don't like it. Wait, wait, wait. But they're way out of line. They completely disagree with the Trump administration is doing. Because, again, there's horror stories out of nations, you know.

[Michael Knowles]

But most voters voted for Trump campaigning on mass migrations.

[Zach]

But I think people also voted because of prices.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

I was actually knocking doors in Pennsylvania. I love knocking doors from that. A lot of it was the prices which now are going up because of Trump's tariffs. Americans care about helping others. They care. They care about.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, I'll make a deal with you.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

If your argument is it was really just because of the terrible inflation under Biden or whatever, the price is going up and the Democrats want a campaign on promoting mass migration in the midterms and in the next presidential election. I'm all for it. In fact, I might even donate to that campaign.

[Zach]

That's not the campaign I'm talking about. I'm talking about campaign that is about fundamental values, about first off, not just migration. Not just. It's values that spread to every issue and ensuring.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

Also in migration.

[Audience Member]

Right.

[Zach]

That we treat the poorest of the poor. Well.

[Michael Knowles]

Two to three million a year. Great.

[Zach]

Whoever comes through the process, legal process, not shutting it down.

[Michael Knowles]

All right.

[Zach]

I appreciate the conversation.

[Michael Knowles]

I'll see you at the midterms. A pleasure to meet you.

[Zach]

It's great to meet you.

[Michael Knowles]

Hopefully, the next time we're back at Yale, you will be the treasurer of the Yale College Republicans.

[Zach]

I think that's a little unlikely, but we'll see.

[Ben Shapiro]

It's easy to join a protest and shout someone down. It takes a lot more courage and curiosity to sit down and talk, especially with little old me. Until next time.