Trad Wife FIGHT | Fiery Debate with Michael Knowles

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Trad Wife FIGHT | Fiery Debate with Michael Knowles"

Release Date: July 2, 2025

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1. Introduction to the Discussion

Michael Knowles opens the episode by addressing the growing tension between men and women in modern society. Highlighting a decline in marriages and birth rates, he introduces his guests—Melanie Mack, Emily Wilson, and Savannah Stone—to explore the underlying causes and potential solutions to these societal shifts.

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2. The Current State of Gender Relations

Michael sets the stage by discussing the increasing animosity between genders, noting a "spike in men hating women" and vice versa. He attributes part of the problem to the rise of dating apps, which paradoxically have not led to more marriages or births.

Michael Knowles ([01:01]):

"There seems to be a spike in men hating women, a spike in women hating men..."

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3. Blame for Declining Birth and Marriage Rates

The conversation delves into who is responsible for the declining birth rates and marriage trends. Tomi Lahren's perspective is introduced, blaming "stay-at-home boys" for societal issues.

Michael Knowles ([02:22]):

"Pickings are slim. It's all the boys' fault. It's not the girl's fault."

Emily Wilson's Response ([02:26]):

"I'm with her on this. ... it's everyone hating each other problem right now..."

Savannah Stone's Perspective ([03:16]):

"They don't want to be traditional. ... modern feminism has told women that their career is more important than having a family."

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4. Solutions: The Role of Biblical Values and Traditional Gender Roles

Melanie and Savannah advocate for a return to traditional, biblical values as a solution to societal chaos. They argue that embracing traditional gender roles can restore stability in relationships and families.

Melanie Mack ([03:54]):

"If you really want to get away from all of that... move somewhere that has Good biblical values."

Savannah Stone ([04:29]):

"Bringing back the idea of the husband being the head of the household... would help a lot of marriages."

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5. The Feasibility of the Trad Wife Lifestyle Today

The guests discuss whether the traditional wife lifestyle is sustainable in today's society. Emily challenges the practicality, citing the demanding nature of modern life and economic pressures.

Emily Wilson ([05:51]):

"Get a job, move out? You don't need to be online... Men need to have..."

Savannah Stone ([10:51]):

"...I got married at 18... choice was overwhelming..."

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6. The Debate over "Having It All"

A heated debate ensues over whether women can successfully balance careers and traditional home-making roles. Melanie supports the idea of having a job while maintaining traditional responsibilities, while Emily argues that it often leads to burnout and dissatisfaction.

Melanie Mack ([16:30]):

"Encouraging girls who are single... set yourself up... have a plan for yourself."

Emily Wilson ([18:32]):

"Do both. We don't all have to pretend like every job is slave labor..."

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7. The Impact of Social Media and Content Creation

The discussion shifts to the role of social media platforms like TikTok and OnlyFans in shaping perceptions of relationships and gender roles. Emily criticizes the portrayal of trad life influencers as unrealistic and performative.

Emily Wilson ([08:47]):

"It's the fake trad life they promote online... they are promoting trad life 24/7... it's cringe."

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8. Views on Feminism and Voting Rights

A controversial segment arises when Savannah Stone expresses the belief that women should not vote, sparking backlash from Emily. The conversation touches on the historical context of feminism and its modern interpretations.

Savannah Stone ([35:29]):

"I personally don't think women should vote... we're losing elections because single women were voting."

Emily Wilson ([33:53]):

"So much of it is so hypocritical... we're allowed to have different perspectives..."

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9. The Debate on Happiness and Traditional Roles

The guests debate what truly contributes to happiness within marriages. Melanie emphasizes a strong biblical foundation, while Emily contends that personal fulfillment stems from both career and family life.

Savannah Stone ([29:13]):

"I got married at 18... I'm actually happier that way."

Emily Wilson ([27:10]):

"Women should have something that's theirs on their own... you can make it work."

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10. Closing Thoughts and Final Remarks

Michael wraps up the discussion by reflecting on the divide between traditional and modern viewpoints. He acknowledges the complexity of balancing personal happiness with societal expectations and hints at future debates on the topic.

Michael Knowles ([39:55]):

"Ladies, thank you so much for coming on."

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Notable Quotes:

• Michael Knowles ([01:01]): "There seems to be a spike in men hating women, a spike in women hating men..."

• Emily Wilson ([05:51]): "Get a job, move out? You don't need to be online..."

• Savannah Stone ([35:29]): "I personally don't think women should vote..."

• Melanie Mack ([16:30]): "Encouraging girls who are single... set yourself up..."

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Conclusion

The episode presents a fiery debate on the viability and desirability of traditional gender roles in contemporary society. With perspectives ranging from staunch traditionalism to advocacy for balanced modern roles, the discussion underscores the ongoing tension between preserving traditional values and embracing modern egalitarianism.

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Follow the Guests:

• Melanie Mack: @melaniemac
• Emily Wilson: @emilysavesamerica
• Savannah Stone: @SavannahFaithstone

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements and non-content segments from the original transcript, focusing solely on the substantive discussions and debates between the host and guests.

Transcript

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[Michael Knowles]

Tell women what to do.

[Melanie Mack]

If you're just gonna sit and live with mom and dad all your life until Prince Charming comes and saves you, that may not happen.

[Emily Wilson]

I promote women can have it all.

[Savannah Stone]

I personally don't think women should vote.

[Emily Wilson]

Every single thing you say is literally appealing to men.

[Michael Knowles]

I think you're evading the question.

[Emily Wilson]

Well, I think the advice you give to women is awful, and I don't think it comes from true. Happy to be happy. You wouldn't be so triggered.

[Savannah Stone]

I rated my husband for absolutely no reason.

[Emily Wilson]

I just looked. I was like, oh, that's a gay man.

[Michael Knowles]

When I was a boy, I was told there would never be a war between the sexes because everyone was sleeping with the enemy. And somehow that actually isn't true anymore. Somehow, men and women are not sleeping together. I guess that's good if they're not married, but they're also not getting married and they're not having kids. There seems to be a spike in men hating women, a spike in women hating men, an abundance of dating apps, and yet a dearth of dating. So to help me, an old man, make sense of this, I have invited on three hip, cool, young zoomer women. That would be Melanie Mack, Emily Wilson, and Savannah Stone. Ladies, thank you for being on the show.

[Melanie Mack]

Thank you so much for having us.

[Michael Knowles]

So my friend Tomi Lahren has gone viral for talking about this problem and placing the blame at the feet of of stay at home boys.

[Tomi Lahren]

Leave it to Gen Z to rebrand laziness and social awkwardness as something cutesy like a stay at home son. They did much the same thing with quiet quitting, where you can go to work and do less. And if you call it quiet quitting, it's somehow better. But, Laura, I gotta tell you, this is also a big problem when it comes to, I think, declining birth rates, people not getting married, and having children. You know, that's a big problem. They blame it on women. Well, look at what young women have to choose from. The Pickens are slim.

[Michael Knowles]

Pickings are slim. It's all the boys fault. It's not the girl's fault. Emily, what say you?

[Emily Wilson]

No, I'm with her on this. I'm not saying that there's not blame across the board. I don't even think it's a men hating women, women hating men. I think it's everyone hating each other problem right now because I see it. Women against women, men against men. But she's right. I mean, I live in Beverly Hills. Most of the men around here come from money. They're complete mommy's boys. They stay at home until they're literally in their late 30s. And there's guys who walk around and they're tiktokers. I mean, she makes a lot of good points. I agree with everything she's saying. I don't ever put 100% blame on. But yeah, she's right. Men are also becoming a bit feminine.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, so if you had to place the blame, you know, not. You say it's not 100%. Is it 90, 10, 75, 25.

[Emily Wilson]

I think it's 50.

[Michael Knowles]

50, 50, 50. Okay, so then you don't. Then it's not primarily the boys. It's the. It's the girls and the boys. Savannah.

[Savannah Stone]

Yeah, you know, I would say both, but I have a little bit of a different perspective because I live in the South, So most men are very masculine, they're manly, they go hunting, they provide for women. And I would say where I live, it's actually mainly the women. And I'm going to contribute that to modern feminism. Just the fact that they don't want to be traditional. They don't want to live this traditional life, but the men are looking for that. But they're struggling to find traditional women because modern feminism has told women that their career is more important than having a family.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, so you're placing the blame more at the girls feet.

[Savannah Stone]

Yes.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay. All right, Melanie.

[Melanie Mack]

I think it's 50. 50. I do think it's a society problem. But I also have to say that if you live. So I live in Texas, and here in Texas, there's not this stay at home mommy boy epidemic going on for the most part, at least in the Bible belt where I'm at, men are masculine, they're working hard, and the women are f feminine out here for the most part. So I think if you really want to get away from all of that, all of these. Everybody want to be a tiktoker, Everybody want to be a Kardashian, because this is on both sides, then move somewhere that has Good biblical values.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, so that's a great point. But now we're at 50. 50, so it's not even 50.001 to 49.999. You're saying it's exactly 50. You don't none of you want to place the blame at the girls or the boys feet. Okay, fair enough. Very diplomatic, very nice, very complimentary, and very trad in many ways. But then how do you fix it? If you got the boys acting like girly men and you've got the girls acting sort of vacuous and promiscuous, then how are the two gonna meet?

[Melanie Mack]

I think you only fix this with God. You only fix this with biblical values. I think the reason why society has gone so chaotic like this, a huge reason why, is because people have. And society has steered away from these values. They normalized hookup culture, which is not good. This is why a lot of the youth aren't dating anymore. Because that. There's just. That's not healthy at all. And then you've also got a very selfish culture. Everybody wants to feel like they're the prize. And the problem with feeling like you're the prize when you're seeking a relationship is you're looking for a servant instead of an equal partnership where you're both putting in a hundred percent.

[Michael Knowles]

So what's the practical advice? I mean, at least to the men? You know, maybe I could give practical advice to women, but what would you say to the men who are stay at home boys who can't get a girlfriend? What say you, Emily?

[Emily Wilson]

Get a job, move out? You don't need to be online? I don't think online is necessarily a place for men. I think it's a very feminine thing to do. And I just think men need to have. I mean there's. I mean, this is like a rabbit hole because obviously, yeah, we've like neglected men, which, you know, some people can agree with, some people don't. But I just think, yeah, it's a big thing. It's going to be where they're raised, what they're raised by, what religion, what culture, what they're around. I mean, there's so many factors to it. There's literally no black and white answer. And if there was, we'd already have it figured out by now. But obviously there is going to be some aspect of embracing normal traditional gender roles. So it's like, yeah, I think maybe if men were out working and not on TikTok, things would be a little bit better. But I don't Know, I don't have a definite answer for any of these things. It's also culture. Things have changed. Also, it's so expensive out here. Most men are like, it would be insane to be like, how am I going to be a provider? You have to make millions, and you still feel like you're at the poverty line out here.

[Michael Knowles]

So what do you say? You say things have changed. That's totally true. I haven't dated since before dating apps existed, actually, believe it or not, because I married my high school sweetheart, and so I just missed it. And I didn't have to deal with a lot of modern dating, even in my single years. So what do you do if you go out on a date with a guy? You say things have changed. It's hard out there. You gotta be a zillionaire to get a wife. First date, does the guy Pay?

[Melanie Mack]

Yes.

[Emily Wilson]

Yeah, 100%. Every date?

[Michael Knowles]

Yes, every date. Okay. Does the guy open the door for the girl?

[Savannah Stone]

Yes, hopefully.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. Does the guy expect any improper behavior that really should only exist between a husband and a wife?

[Emily Wilson]

No, of course out here, yeah, they shouldn't.

[Michael Knowles]

Hold on. Wait. Is that of course yes or of course no?

[Savannah Stone]

They shouldn't?

[Emily Wilson]

Of course yes.

[Michael Knowles]

They do expect it. Is that good? Should they expect it or they should not?

[Emily Wilson]

Whatever. I mean, I don't. I'm not gonna demonize them. It's what most people do, so. It is what it is.

[Michael Knowles]

But do you think. I guess that's kind of getting to the point here, I think. Because if the critique from the women is these men aren't acting like men and they're not being chivalrous and they're not treating me like the sweet angel that I am. And then the critique from the men is, well, these girls are not behaving like dignified, modest women. They're on onlyfans and they're promiscuous or whatever, you can see how both sides got to that place. But then don't we need to raise the expectations and say, no, ladies, be modest. Men, don't be Casanovas.

[Emily Wilson]

Yeah, you gotta raise it on both ends, though, which is very difficult because you also have to get women and men to both admit that they were slightly wrong, which no one wants to do, because right now all we do is pin each other against each other. Oh, no. All the women, they're all on only fans, and they're all hoeing it out constantly. Oh, all the men, they're just, you know, feminine tiktokers. Like, you got to get to A middle ground. Like, yeah. Is it great for every woman out here to be on Onlyfans? No, it's a little crazy because, like, look, it is kind of sex work. It's kind of prostitute.

[Melanie Mack]

Oh, it absolutely.

[Michael Knowles]

More than kind of.

[Melanie Mack]

It is 100% prostitution.

[Savannah Stone]

Yeah.

[Emily Wilson]

But also when you have all these men that just go through women because they have unlimited options, and this is what most girls are, and they're like, yeah, yeah, I want a good girl. But then they say they want a good girl, then they meet the good girl and they cheat on them anyway. So it's just like. It's a very difficult thing that's gonna take a long time to try to figure out, honestly.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, so what do we aim at? Cause there is something that's been delightful to me that's cropped up because I'm a little more. Not totally libertarian, you know, I'm a little more traditionalist. I go to the traditional Latin mass. So when this phrase trad life popped up, I thought, let's go, baby. I'm like the hipster of the trad life. You know, I've been doing it since before it was cool. But this creates caricatures. This creates. You know, some people, they take it a little too far. I sometimes tell women, if they want to date at the traditional Latin mass, the odds are good, but the goods are odd. You know, they're a little bit weird out there. So, Emily, you went viral for critiquing the trad life.

[Emily Wilson]

I'm sorry, I hate to call out my own party, but the young girls on the right promoting this, like, trad wife. I just want to make sourdough for my husband. That's great. I'm all for it. I promote traditional values. I understand. I have been working since I was very young. I don't really plan on stop being working. I suggest you find a hobby that makes you money. But you guys, guess what? Guess what, baby girl? That lifestyle, working out, a man, a provider, you just get to sit at home, bake bread every day. Slim to none, I would say none that that's gonna work out for you or quite literally anyone. You know, you're actually setting yourself up for failure. Because it could not be easier, if that's what you're going to pursue, to be trapped by a man. Okay? Also, let's bring some other things to the table besides sourdough. Let's. Let's guys want to be mentally stimulated as well as physical. Okay? But I'm just like, please. You guys are too young to be Promoting this. And also, by the way, it's cringe. You guys are cringe.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay. Okay. So Emily says trad life is BS Savannah, what say you?

[Savannah Stone]

So I actually don't like the buzzword tradwife because again, I think it's a buzzword in culture and there's a lot of things tied to it.

[Michael Knowles]

But when I was a kid, we just called them wives.

[Emily Wilson]

Yeah, that's exactly what we do.

[Savannah Stone]

Yeah. And now, you know, I would say stay at home wife would probably be the proper term for it, but, you know, I would have to disagree. I think that there's a very narrow perspective that when you are a wife who doesn't make her own income and the man is providing that you are trapped by a man. I mean, I will post things about my husband providing for me, and they're like, wait till he leaves you in 20 years and goes and finds a younger girl and leaves you with absolutely nothing. And the truth of the matter is that doesn't really happen. Right. Like, 70, 70 to 80% of divorces are filed by women who were unhappy or just bored. It really doesn't happen where the man just leaves you with absolutely nothing. I think too, like my marriage personally, Christ is at the center of our marriage. And if you don't have that foundation, then of course it's going to fall apart. Of course there's going to be infidelity. Of course you're going to be looking elsewhere because you don't have that foundation. And couples that pray together stay together. Like we pray every single night, and Christ is at the center. And we're going to church together. And we did that from the beginning of our. Our relationship all the way up until now. So I think bringing Christ back into the marriage is really important. And of course, that's where the traditional roles come in. I believe that when you are going 50, 50, which is like this new progressive marriage, that it causes a lot of competition and there's actually not any contribution that the man and the woman are just competing with each other because they're both waking up at 6am they're rushing to get ready, they're going to their 9 to 5. They come home, they're absolutely exhausted. They're splitting the chores. They eat a quick dinner, scroll on their phones, go to bed, repeat the same cycle over and over again, and it's not working out. And you've seen the divorce rates go up and you've seen the birth rates plummet. And so bringing tradition back in. And I'm not saying we all have to be in 1950s gowns. And cooking from scratch wouldn't be the worst idea, but.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, sure. You don't have to.

[Savannah Stone]

No, it would be great. It would be great. But I think that bringing back the idea of the husband being the head of the household and the woman being his home, like it was in the Bible, like it literally says in the Bible, would help a lot of marriages.

[Michael Knowles]

Emily, does that do anything for you?

[Emily Wilson]

No. I stand on everything I said. I. You know what's the funniest part about, about my video was, I mean, that's literally just common sense. You can't even argue with any of it. I. There's statistical data on my side for every single thing I said. Especially if you're getting married super young, the odds of that working out. The difference is, I pray it does work out for everyone. But also, I'm just looking at things from a perspective. But it's funny because I was like, I must have triggered something in all these housewives, because I was like, how happy are you guys that you flood my comment sections wishing horrible things to happen on me? And I'm like, so you're not really proving my point that I think any of you are happy. And yes. Not even just the fact of divorce? Divorce is what, probably 50% of this country? Potentially more.

[Michael Knowles]

It's a little less. Yeah, it's high.

[Emily Wilson]

Yeah, it's high. People lose their jobs, People die, people get sick. There's a lot of factors to that. It's also like, I don't understand these women who claim to be so happy that are, you know, telling me to kill myself online because I have an opinion, which is what I do for a living. I'm like, I promote. Women can have it all. I work full time. I also cook. I also clean. I do everything. It's not something to be put down. Which is the problem with these trad wives are hating on women that work. And it's like, we're not forcing you to work. I like working. It makes me happy. So I'm like, do you? But this pressing this life on everyone, it's not for everyone. And it's also not going to work out for everyone. And that's just life. So, yes.

[Michael Knowles]

Savannah, why are you trying to force your views on Emily, huh?

[Savannah Stone]

I don't force my views on anyone. Listen, all of my girlfriends have jobs or they're in university, and we get along and they respect my lifestyle, and I respect their lifestyle. Do I think women with children who are married are happier? Yes, There are Statistics that show that. But we live in a world where I'm not going to tell women what to do. They can go to work, they can do whatever they want. They can be on only fans. But do I think that they're happier when they have a band providing for them and they have children? Yes, because it's just our primal nature.

[Emily Wilson]

But then you said I was bitter. How am I bitter? Because I work, I cook, I clean, and my man fully takes care of me, and I have my own money to take care of myself. So it's like.

[Savannah Stone]

Because there would be no reason to go online and bash women who do have that lifestyle unless you were bitter about it. That's. It doesn't make sense to my job.

[Emily Wilson]

To give opinions for a living. It's an opinion. If you were truly happy, you wouldn't be so triggered. But you took it extremely personal. I'm like, sweetie, I'm not talking to you. It's an opinion I give them for a living. I have a job.

[Melanie Mack]

But then why don't you like it that other people give you opinions in your comments?

[Emily Wilson]

No, it's funny because it's like you're clearly triggered, as if you're that happy, you wouldn't be bothered. And she thinks I'm like, talking about her. I'm like, no, I'm talking about all the young girls online that are literally promoting this, then ironically doing it as a job to grift and make money as well. Which is so funny because it all comes full circle.

[Melanie Mack]

There is some of that I do agree. I think that from my perspective. Yeah. Encouraging girls who are single and who aren't married. And even if they want that trad lifestyle, go ahead and do something with yourself. In the meantime, set yourself up so that, hey, if that trad life that you want doesn't come to be. Because right now we do live in, especially a very godless society, and a lot of traditional values come from the Bible. So if you're just going to sit and live with mom and dad all your life until Prince Charming comes and saves you and gives you that trad life, that may not happen. So go ahead, get a job. Have a plan for yourself if it comes down to it.

[Savannah Stone]

But.

[Melanie Mack]

But to say that the trad life is cringe or anything like that, I completely disagree.

[Emily Wilson]

No, the fake trad life that they promote online. The fake one, yeah. People sit at home and are like, I did nothing today and I'm taking care of and I'm happy. Oh, my God, get it. Literally, I want to Be like, get a job. Like, sorry. It's cringe and it's gross and it's so funny. I'm like, why are you out here promoting trad life 24 7, dying on this hill when half of these chicks aren't even married or have kids? I'm like, go get. Go get those babies popped out. Go live that life. You're dying on that hill online. I'm just calling it out.

[Michael Knowles]

What about this point? So you made a point there. Cause I see a lot of it. I see the criticism, which is, if you're a trad life influencer and your life is mostly on camera, it's hard for that to be trad. It's hard to be trad on TikTok, right? Trad involves you're kind of more focused on the private life and the home and the kids and the bread, which is great, and it's all fabulous, but I see there's a little bit of a tension there. But to Savannah's point, most divorces are initiated by women. So it's not that some women aren't passed up for the secretary. That does happen, but that's relatively minor. More seems to be impelled by feminism and by women's choices and on the notion of having it all at a certain point, you can't have it all if you're at work eight hours a day at the widget factory, doing the spreadsheets, that those are eight hours that you're not gonna be with your kids or baking bread or, you know, dusting the bookshelves or whatever it is. So I grant that women can have lots of different goods in their lives, but sometimes there is a decision you have to make. And I think the question that's being raised here by Melanie and Savannah is, is it better? Is it more conducive to women's happiness to put on the Victorian era gown or not? Or you can wear modern clothes but have the kids, get married, bake the bread, do the house stuff, or is it more conducive to women's happiness to go out and work at a corporation and have a career?

[Emily Wilson]

My answer is do both.

[Michael Knowles]

But how can you do. If you're gonna do the one you're gonna spend just in what would be your workday, eight hours a day with the kids? Kids aren't gonna be with the nanny. They're gonna be with mama, and mama's gonna be making breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and you're gonna be giving them piano lessons or whatever. That's one kind of thing. Or you could be doing spreadsheets at the widget factory or whatever the job is, but you know, they're only 24 hours in a day. At a certain point you're going to have when you have to make a decision, am I going to spend my time doing this or that? Which is better?

[Emily Wilson]

I don't believe in this choosing thing. We live in a modern day society. There's so many factors to this. It's not just this whole thing of tribal. Oh, the corporate slave. First of all, I've loved most of my careers and most of them weren't eight hour days, Monday through Friday. These women can have jobs and still be at home and still be with the children. Also, a lot of women have kids and I hate to say it, are not fully fulfilled by that and are like, dude, I need to go back to work, I need to be around adults. Like, sorry, that's a real thing. A lot of my friends are married, a lot of them have kids. So it's just like I think this whole thing instead of constantly being like, you have to pick. Also a lot of these women make content and have full time jobs as they have careers. And especially a lot of those women are the top women in right wing media, which is so funny watching these young girls hate on these women. Meanwhile, I'm like, those are the women you would die to achieve to have that type of lifestyle. I'm not going to sit here and hate on what Ingram, Kelly. All these women, Ali Best, Ducky. All these women, they have full time jobs and they also are able to be moms and take care of their kids. I doubt all those women are horrible mothers, but that's the thing. I'm like, I'm not going to tell women they have to choose. You can do both, you can make it work and the more money you have, the more opportunities and you're going to have ways to help. Maybe then I can go hire someone to cook or to clean and spend more time.

[Michael Knowles]

I know you can. That's what you have to do. And I agree, it is kind of funny, you know, if you are on TV every day for a living, by definition you're not living the most traditional lifestyle. You know, there are a lot of perks to it and a lot of good things. But yes, of course, I totally grant that. But I think you're evading the question because the point you've just made is, look, I can hire a nanny, I can hire a chef, I can take the money. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. That's one kind of life. But when you say you can have it all, that it violates Aristotle's law of non contradiction because the two choices I'm present, two ways of life are that I'm presenting at least are you're at home, you don't have a job, you have a lot of jobs, but you don't have a career. Your life is in the private sphere. The other version is your life is in the public sphere, but you get to do a lot of fun like wife, mom stuff too. But I'm saying those are separate things. Savannah or Melanie, do you have thoughts on if one is better than the other or are we all just gonna be like modern people and not make a decision?

[Melanie Mack]

I think if you're actually looking at children and upbringing and obviously I my mom was a a trad wife. She still is. She raised my brothers and I. She stayed at home and and homeschooled us while my dad provided for the family. And there's no way that she could have had a full time job and homeschool us and take care of the home and do all the cooking and all of that stuff. So for that I'm very grateful because especially when you get on the subject of public schools in general, they're indoctrination systems. And also it's hard for kids to really be kids when they're at young a age having their nine to five already in the school system. So the fact that that my mom dedicated her time into homeschooling, my brothers and I, I'm so grateful for that. And so not to say that every kid that's in public school doesn't have a good mom and all that, but I think in an ideal scenario for children, a mom would stay home and raise them.

[Michael Knowles]

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[Savannah Stone]

My mom worked from home. She was a settlement consultant, so she only worked when she had a case come to her. But she sacrificed a lot of work when she had us as kids and she was able to basically be a stay at home mom who took maybe, maybe like two conference calls a month so she could have made a lot more money than she did, but she sacrificed that to raise us as kids. So I don't think that you can have it all because having it all would be her making as much money as she can with work, being very successful in her career, and also having successful children.

[Michael Knowles]

But, right, you can't buy, locate, you can't be in two places simultaneously.

[Emily Wilson]

No, no.

[Savannah Stone]

And I mean, she, like, she took us to school every day, she picked us up, she was at all of our games, she was at all of our events. And I would not trade that for the world. And that was a good example to me because when I have kids, I want to be at everything. Like, I want to watch them grow up. I don't want somebody else raising my children or even my parents raising my children because they have to watch them. So I think I had a great example of that growing up. Even my mom would tell you, like, no, I had to sacrifice a lot of money and a lot of my career to raise children. But she'll tell you it was 100% worth it.

[Michael Knowles]

You know, my wife, she's done both. Sweet little Elisa is a real, she's a real trad wife. She bakes the bread, she makes the pasta, she does all the stuff, you know, takes the kids out. But she also, she has a PhD. She's had a career. She has a doctorate. I have an honorary doctorate. I'm just the arm candy, really. But she's done that and she quit her job. And she quit her job because we've been spitting out enough kids that it got to the Point where she was gonna have to make real choices, Hire more childcare, spend less time with the kids, or quit the job. But it finally had come down to it and you have to make a choice. And she chose the trad life, the trad wife life. But she did have Emily's caveat there, which is that a lot of these moms who decide, okay, I'm gonna stay home, I wanna be with the kids more, I don't wanna. They still want some money or they still want some kind of outside intellectual activity so they'll make content, you know, they'll like make whatever they'll post on Instagram. And so it is this little bit of a kinda trying to have it all sort of thing. But my question, I guess maybe I'm more authoritarian than anyone on the panel. I don't know. I haven't heard you weigh in on this, Melanie, but I do not have the view, as you suggested, Savannah, that, you know, look, a woman, if she wants to do whatever she wants, that's fine, she can go on OnlyFans. I don't know. I don't. It should not that onlyfans should be banned. The operators should be arrested and shipped off to St. Helena, you know, So I think we should put lots of limits on all this stuff. And the question that I have is, as we're trying to bridge the divide between the sexes so that people can have good lives, what is best for these people? We have no problem saying that it is better for the boy to get out of his mother's basement. It is better for the boy to go out, get a job, not be a stay at home son or whatever. You know, it's better for him. He should, he should, he should. But then when it comes to women, we say, well, they could do whatever they want. Maybe this is better, but maybe it's not. Maybe this, but I want shoulds. I want you to tell women what to do, what is best for the women, Emily?

[Emily Wilson]

I think men should go out and work. I think women should also educate themselves. I think they should find a job that makes them happy. You don't have. We don't all have to pretend like every job is slave labor. I've had many careers. I've been happy in all of them. I think women should have something that's theirs on their own. I also think it gives you more options. It makes you, in my opinion, because I give those for a living, more valuable and better off. And when they find someone, if they choose to become a stay at home trad Wife, whatever BS they call it online now, then that's fantastic. If they want to have hobbies, if they want to work a little, if they want to quit their jobs, whatever's best for them, that makes them happy. And the children, that's great. I support all that.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay. Now, so then the question. Of course, this begs the question, which is what makes people happy? Which is where we stay. What is actually conducive to happiness? Modernity tells you a lot of things are going to make you happy and they don't. But then I see in your answer, Emily, a lot of they should have choice. They should have something on their own, something independent. But I am skeptical of that. Okay? I don't have a lot of choices. I mean, I do. And I get to do whatever I want. I don't even have a real job. You know, I just do. This is my job. Is this even a job? But I don't have a lot of choices. I am married. I gotta be home at a certain time most nights. I gotta do stuff. I've got to make some money because I've gotta pay certain bills. I don't accept divorce under any circumstances. I don't have a prenuptial agreement. My wife could take me to the cleaners if she wanted to. You know, it is. I am. I don't have choice. I don't have things that are really independent from my wife. We don't have separate personal bank accounts or anything. We don't have separate anything, really. We sleep in the same bed. So my question then is, is it really good? I know modernity says it's good to be independent and have choices and endless options or whatever. Does that really make you happy?

[Melanie Mack]

Melanie, I honestly don't even like the phrase do what makes you happy. I think you need a foundation, and that foundation is the Bible instead of subjective morality. We're not always going to have the opportunity to do what makes us happy, because what makes us happy at all times isn't necessarily right. We need to do the right thing. And the Bible has a strong foundation for how men should behave, what men should do, and women. So we can't just live life based on you. Do you. Let's have this objective morality because things just go crazy. You got pride parades, you got kids being mutilated. Like, things just spiral out of control. So do what's right.

[Emily Wilson]

Follow the Bible.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, That's a pretty straight answer. So Emily's answer is, do the things that make you happy. You know, follow your bliss. Yours is follow the Bible. Even if you think it might not make you happy, it will in the long run. Savannah, what should women do?

[Savannah Stone]

I think the word choice is very over glorified in our society. Like, choice is so sexy. We love having choice. I mean, I would agree with you, Michael, in my marriage, I will not leave my husband under any circumstance. We follow the Bible. We're loyal to each other. He's the head of the household, so he makes the decisions in our family. And I'm actually happier that way. I mean, I'm very young. I got married at 18, but before then I was given all these choices, like, oh, well, you could move here and go get a degree here, go get a job here. And that was overwhelming. That was actually more depressing than living in a marriage that is a unit in which you don't have a ton of choices and you don't have a ton of freedom, quote unquote. And so if you watch my content, you know that I usually say, you should do this. You ought to do this, because statistically speaking, married women with children are happier. But again, I'm going to have to agree with Melanie, too, that the Bible is the foundation and Christ is the foundation will make you want to do things that are inherently traditional and that are biblical. So I would say that choice has just gotten so out of hand and we ought to go back to biblical principles.

[Michael Knowles]

All right, now it seems like the divide here is you got Melanie and Savannah are really pro trad life. Emily, you're being made out to be the liberal feminist here, even though you're pretty conservative, Right? You're pretty.

[Emily Wilson]

It's funny because everyone says I'm like, too far right, which is like, there's no winning, is there?

[Michael Knowles]

But do you sense. Do you feel that you are a little more on the liberal or feminist side compared to some of the women who are pushing the trad life.

[Emily Wilson]

I mean, textbook definition feminism of wanting men and women to have, like, equal rights. Yeah, like, I would not deny that.

[Michael Knowles]

Of course you would call yourself a feminist, because I don't think I know people always say feminism means you want men and women to have equal rights. I think that's bs. I think it's an ideology supposed to mean.

[Emily Wilson]

And what it did mean until it got hijacked by everything. Now, if you say you're a feminist, everyone's calling you a liberal and all these different things.

[Michael Knowles]

But I mean, actually. Sorry to interrupt, but I mean, I'd go back even further. I don't think it ever actually meant that. I think that was A way to sell feminism. But I think going back to, like, Mary Wollstonecraft in the early days of feminism, I think it was just basically a view of human nature that said men and women are pretty much the same. And rather than the classical view of human nature, which is that men and women are different. Vive la difrance. We're complementary. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, but we all get together in the solar system. So I think it goes deeper than that's. One reason why I would never say I'm a feminist is because I just don't think that's how human nature works. I love women. I think women are marvelous. I am as far from a misogynist as it is possible to be, but I just don't. I don't think men and women are the same. I think certain things are better for men, certain things are better for women.

[Emily Wilson]

No, I think what makes us different are our strengths. I think trying to blend those together is a complete weakness. I think men and women are completely different animals and should be treated differently. So it's like the problem is they're trying to blend these things to be like, oh, we should just be living the same life and doing the same things. Absolutely not. That clearly is not working out as we see that in society. Do I think women should have the right to vote and all these things, which. Yes. All the pick me feminists, they're like, oh, my God, women shouldn't even vote. Like, I'm sorry, I think that's embarrassing. I think literally all they're doing is trying to get attention from men, ironically, because most of them are probably unhappy in their marriages and not happy with all the choices they've made. I'm also coming from a different perspective. I'm in a city. I'm also not super religious. I'm very clear about that online. But I'm not going to pretend like I'm a part of this new wave of feminism. I mean, being in one of the bluest places in the country, I live a very ironically traditional and conservative lifestyle. I don't drink, I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I don't go out. We're having dinner, we're cooking. We're with the dogs. We'd like to Emily one day.

[Michael Knowles]

My definition of conservatism. You actually have to drink and smoke. It's actually a requirement. Listen, I see your point because they say women shouldn't vote. I think, hold on. Then we're going to lose all the elections because we get all the married. Only married women should vote. The single women should not vote because they all vote for Democrats. But if you really wanted to embrace the trad life, of course nobody should vote. But that's a topic for another time. Ladies, thank you so much.

[Emily Wilson]

So much of it is so hypocritical. And ironically, a lot of these statements are like literally just from women to appease men. And I'm sorry, I'm just like, I'm not going to get behind that. And they called me a liberal feminist and Tomi Lauren and all these people. And look, we're allowed to have different perspectives. And that's also supposed to be the right wing. We're not supposed to be liberals. We're supposed to have different perspectives and actually be able to coexist with each other.

[Melanie Mack]

Right. And I'm not completely on the end of like, oh, women shouldn't vote and this or that. I think women should be able to vote. So I'm definitely with you on that. And I also.

[Michael Knowles]

Melanie, I think, I guess so.

[Melanie Mack]

But I also think even if you look at the Bible, you look at the Proverbs 31 woman, she still had a job. It granted it didn't take priority over her household. So I think that when we're talking about roles, as if, if a woman wants to be able to work, I mean, I'm not in a 1950s dress right now, not yet.

[Emily Wilson]

I work.

[Melanie Mack]

Not yet at least. So I work. And so I can't claim that everything has to be this exact same way. So I do understand that element of it. But I think that the priority with a woman in marriage, and especially if kids are involved, should be the home that is the priority. Anything else that she wants to do, if she wants to get a part time job, she wants to do this or that, as long as it doesn't interfere with what she's able to do at home.

[Emily Wilson]

And I think it's good if you're talking about women initiating divorce and being unhappy. I think a good part of that is how do we keep women happy and stop that from happening? So saying, oh, you know, not force them. If, if going to work three hours a week makes her happy, whatever it is, then maybe that should be also a priority if the divorce is initiated and so high.

[Michael Knowles]

I have this crazy idea maybe we should restrict the divorce laws again. But that's much, that's the much more trad right wing view. Savannah, you have been characteristically demure, quiet and trad in this last little segment here. Final word.

[Savannah Stone]

I mean So I personally don't think women should vote. And that's probably going to be a very far opinion. And that's not to get male validation. That's simply like I maybe married women because it would just be like my husband having another vote. But you know, during like the suffragist movement, they, they sold this to women as, oh, well, now you can vote differently than your husband, so now you have choice. And so if we're going to erase women's choice, as in, you know, going on onlyfans or working or whatever it may be, then you, you, you have to repeal the 19th too. I mean, I just don't that we're losing elections. We lost in, what was it, 2020 because women, single women were voting. So I think that that's a problem.

[Michael Knowles]

I thought it was the ballot drop boxes, but it's a fair point. I mean, there were plenty of women during the suffragette broad voter id.

[Emily Wilson]

But it's like, also, didn't you vote, didn't you vote for Trump?

[Savannah Stone]

Well, yeah, but it was like my husband had another vote. I'm not voting against my husband. If I was voting against my husband, that would be a problem.

[Melanie Mack]

I don't think couples should be voting against each other.

[Emily Wilson]

I.

[Melanie Mack]

And I think the man should be the head of the household. So I can see that element of it for sure. Women should be.

[Michael Knowles]

So, Melanie, you're more on Savannah's side.

[Melanie Mack]

I'm kind of in between, cuz, like, I don't want to be told I can't vote. I mean, I'm single too, so I don't want to be told I can't vote. Like, I'm taxing, I would be told.

[Emily Wilson]

Look, I think.

[Michael Knowles]

Sorry to interrupt, Melanie, but I'm a millennial. Millennials have voted traditionally for Democrats. If you told me, Michael, we're going to disenfranchise all the millennials, you'll never get to vote again. But we're going to get good government. Say, like, where do I sign up? Take all my votes, please. It's a hassle to go vote. What do I need that for? The point of the voting is the good government. And to your point, Savannah, I mean, there were a lot of women who were opposed to the suffragettes and they didn't want the right to vote. And the reason, I don't think, was that they were dumb or slaves or something like that. Their arguments were the argument that the basic unit of society should be the family, not the individual. So they were making principled arguments. You can disagree with those arguments, obviously they're kind of irrelevant now. Cuz women have had the right to vote for 100 years, but they were making serious arguments. So then, I don't know. I mean, what do you say, Emily? I don't think we're gonna repeal the 19th Amendment anytime soon. But would it not be more conservative if the political order was based on the family rather than the individual?

[Emily Wilson]

Yeah, but there's also. That goes across too many different things of, like, rights that we should have. And that's just. It's just ridiculous. I don't, like, I don't even really believe, like, yeah, okay. Would we be more conservative? Sure. Would I risk, like, all females not being able to vote? No, and I don't really think females believe that. I think they say these things online to get male validation.

[Michael Knowles]

Savannah, are you a pick me? Are you doing pick me stuff?

[Savannah Stone]

I'm married. I'm married. I don't need to be picked. I've already been picked.

[Emily Wilson]

But every single thing you say is literally appealing to men and usually hating on women as well. Which is funny because I would think if I was in a happy marriage, I wouldn't even do like, I would just go out and just be happy and do my thing. I think the advice you give to women is awful. I think it's at a detriment to them, and I don't think it comes from true happiness. And I think it really does come out of insecurity from being in, frankly, a lavender marriage, as everyone online can see.

[Melanie Mack]

I disagree. I think. Are you.

[Savannah Stone]

Are you that easily manipulated by TikTok rumors?

[Michael Knowles]

What is it? Can you clear up for a millennial.

[Emily Wilson]

What'S a lavender Mary in two seconds?

[Melanie Mack]

Oh, a lavender marriage is when you like.

[Savannah Stone]

Okay, why do you think I called you out for hate?

[Melanie Mack]

Isn't a lavender marriage usually?

[Savannah Stone]

My husband online, you berated my husband for absolutely no reason.

[Emily Wilson]

No, I just looked at. I just looked at two seconds as, oh, that's a gay man. That's why she's. She's what? So that's.

[Melanie Mack]

I think that's uncalled for. I don't know anybody personal lives here. This is what I. If this is the thing. My perspective of what I'm seeing. Savannah is saying all this because she is in an ideal situation. She's in a happy situation. So in an ideal situation, married to.

[Emily Wilson]

A potentially gay man at what, 19 is a.

[Michael Knowles]

How do you know? As someone who's tap danced in his life, I want you to know not every guy who's a little theatrical is lighting the loafers. All right, on that note, we have to let you all go. I look forward to chatting again, though. You can follow Melanie Mac at melaniemac. You can follow emily at emily saves america. You can follow Savannah faithstone at Savannah faithstone. I can't wait for part two. Ladies, thank you so much for coming on.

[Emily Wilson]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Michael.